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1 • Raspberry Pi -- growth (by sooth-sayer on 2025-04-07 00:45:24 GMT from United States)
They are destroying the platform a littlebit at a time.
Only Zero serves the original niche now -- rest is bloated.
They should have "FIXED" the broken I2C implemenatikon that limits it's use ; instead they keep adding more power hungry peripherals to it.
Adding USB-C was a good solution - but it gave them a license to now make that poor board go up to 15W+ in consumption -- it's useless now!
2 • Desktop and mobile computing merging? (by penguinx86 on 2025-04-07 00:57:12 GMT from United States)
I don't think desktop/laptop computing can merge with mobile smartphone/tablet computing. They are two different animals. First of all, desktop/laptop computing uses a keyboard and mouse. The onscreen keyboards lack simple cursor keys and a delete key for example. Also, mobile devices make it difficult to copy and paste text using the right mouse button. Another issue is mobile devices come with minimal storage that can't be upgraded. You can't even add an SD card to an iPhone for example. But many desktops/laptops can be upgraded to larger SSD drives fairly easily for more storage.
3 • Android operating systems (by Greg Zeng on 2025-04-07 01:12:56 GMT from Australia)
https://www.needrom.com/
NEEDROM has about eighty categories of the Android operating system. It lists thousands of ROM-ready systems that can be applied to hundreds of old and new hardware items. “Member Since: 06/13/2013 11:31 am”.
It has a very detailed and long history of discussions, tools, and live notifications by email on specific topics, if desired. Advertisements are missing. The whole site seems to be totally voluntary.
“Donations:
"This site is growing, and our four servers generate terabytes of traffic per day, and needrom must pay for this traffic and servers."
"It's not the most expensive thing in the world, but it has reached a point where I can no longer pretend it costs absolutely nothing."
"Absolutely all proceeds from donations will benefit to this community."
The OEM usual systems are given their download links. Most interesting are the third-party compilations. These cover older hardware but are now upgraded to later versions of software, applications, and Android operating systems.
The third-party systems have varying degrees of contributor networks. Some are reputable and better than the original OEMs, without logging and other privacy dangers.
4 • RefreshOS? I don't know what to think of this... (by uz64 on 2025-04-07 06:23:55 GMT from United States)
I don't really know what to think of this distro. Upfront, it sounds like just yet another distribution based on the latest version of Debian using KDE and the Brave browser. That's automatically at least somewhat interesting, but not exactly very unique--there are a ton of Debian and Ubuntu based distributions based on KDE. But download and run it. Bizarrely, it contains a lot--and I do mean a lot--of GTK-based applications, and some of them are even taken straight out of GNOME, its various forks (Nemo from Cinnamon--that's right, instead of the logical Dolphin, which is literally part of KDE). It even has the GTK-based Deepin calculator and calendar applications, and Xfburn which is a part of Xfce. WTF? Bizarre, not necessarily bad, but just... WTF exactly is this Frankenstein trying to be?
5 • RefreshOS? I _do_ know what to think of this... (by I do agree on 2025-04-07 06:37:36 GMT from Italy)
In the early years of Linux, distros thought as "a main one reinterpreted and made easier to set up and work with" had many reasons to be conceived and implemented, but now?
Each main distro on the market is now a piece of cake when you come to installation and use.
Sometimes I think some developers should start targeting the main problems of open source (xz-utils should tell us something...) rather than wasting time in some eyecandy.
6 • Re. 5 (by uz64 on 2025-04-07 06:55:52 GMT from United States)
XZ Utils might have been the project to have been directly comprimized, but in my opinion not enough blame goes to the *other* effectively co-equal project which has *directly* allowed the XZ Utils exploit to work... and that is... drumroll please... SystemD. The "XZ Utils" vulnerability will flat out NOT WORK without systemd. So if you are doing what it sounds like, and trying to directly blame XZ Utils for that attack... just look at all of those NON-SYSTEMD-BASED DISTROS that have *not* been affected even in the slightest by this exploit. I mean, hell, even Arch uses SystemD, but ironically came out of it completely unscathed because they do not make the same modifications to systemd that Debian, Red Hat, etc. do relating to the XZ Utils.
7 • Great review! (by thatguy on 2025-04-07 08:04:31 GMT from United States)
I've been reading DW for literally decades now and this review is possibly my favorite of all time, and I do not own nor have much interest in the Raspberry Pi. Jesse's excitement and joy is palpable. Nice to see a little emotion/heart in the writing rather than the "Just the facts, ma'am" approach!
Loved the point about how so much of what makes waves now is the flashy/buzzword-encrusted stuff that's social media friendly.
8 • XZ Utils and Init (by Hank on 2025-04-07 08:12:50 GMT from The Netherlands)
While many say there is only sysD others have moved forward. What many do not realise is a uniform system landscape makes life much easier for exploit developers.
I have used Runit for years after the standard drove me nuts with weird effects and its cancer like growth.
Presently trying some other options and eagerly awaiting an init diversity respin update.
From antiX forum Prowler-Gr posted.
a brand new “init-diversity” remaster is in the works – which will be an overhaul to the previous respin.
Roadmap so far:
* dinit added as init option & basic services packaged & configured for graphical boot (complete)
* sysvinit rebased on latest Trixie (complete)
* runit rebased on new upstream debian version 2.2.0 (complete – it works fine with antiX service management)
* OpenRC rebased on latest Trixie. (complete)
* 66 rebased on 0.8.x.x – with proper service package dependency management (WIP – but almost there)
* s6-rc updated to latest upstream – with proper service package dependency management (WIP)
9 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by James on 2025-04-07 09:51:23 GMT from United States)
No, not even remotely interested.
10 • freebsd (by acurate on 2025-04-07 11:03:29 GMT from United States)
When freebsd as well as everything else gets the touchpad working on my laptop will be a miracle - we can dream:)
11 • init (by Michael T on 2025-04-07 12:01:05 GMT from United States)
If you want a real choice in init systems give Artix a try. They have an excellent Plasma desktop, Mate and XFCE4. Mate is typically on the community GTK while XFCE4 has its own disk image. It is Arch based, but they keep their own repositories. I use it on my PC and a generic Intel laptop. Everything works as expected.
12 • GrapheneOS (by Ge. on 2025-04-07 12:27:19 GMT from Canada)
You story last week inspired me to install Graphene on an old Pixel. Now I have to figure out what to do with it.
🙂
13 • Jesse/RPI s (by Treen HQ on 2025-04-07 12:42:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Got the 1, E & 3 lying idle for some years so very glad and encouraged by Jesse's fine offering today. Thank you! Would like a lot more info and other suggestions, please.
14 • RefreshOS (by Cesare on 2025-04-07 12:59:43 GMT from Italy)
"RefreshOS comes with a suite of powerful applications, including the Brave Web Browser, Nemo, and Deepin apps."
Nemo is the file manager of Cinnamon: what's wrong with Dolphin? I don't like this mixture of Nemo + Deepin Apps. Debian derivatives should be as close as possible to the parent distro, perhaps adding codecs and drivers that Debian does not install by default.
15 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by imonline on 2025-04-07 13:47:07 GMT from Canada)
Yes. I have a Raspberry Pi M.2 HAT+ SSD Kit with a 256G NVMe card from which I boot from.
*If immortality was outlawed then only outlaws would be immortal*
16 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by RexOfRome on 2025-04-07 15:15:35 GMT from United States)
I bought a Raspberry Pi 4 and a MMDVM modem hat to build a hotspot for amateur radio. Works great.
17 • Another single board computer (by Scott Dowdle on 2025-04-07 16:06:09 GMT from United States)
I have a few SBC's based on the Altera Cyclone V which is a combo CPU which includes ARM and FPGA. Terasic makes the DE10-Nano and currently two other companies have a clone board (RetroRemake and QMTech) and a third is on the horizon (Heber). It runs Linux in support loading FPGA cores from the MiSTer FPGA Project for retro computers, gaming consoles and handhelds, and arcades... and has about ~1,400 such cores. It's an older board (has DDR3 RAM) that seems to still have quite a bit of life in it because a powerful board isn't needed for FPGA stuff. MiSTer may switch to a newer board in the next year or two but that remains to be seen. There are a number of add-on boards for those including analog i/o, digital i/o, MT32-MIDI support, real-time clock, USB board, JAMMA boards. There are also boards that make it more port-friendly for various case designs, etc, that mainly integrate functionality from multiple boards into one. While I think it is possible to run a Linux desktop on it, it would be very slow for that. The MiSTer FPGA Project is really fantastic and if you have any interest in the various retro platforms it supports, check it out.
18 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by AloofBrit on 2025-04-07 18:48:44 GMT from United States)
I'm not sure it really counts as an 'add-on' per se, but I put an iUniker heatsink case on my Pi 4 which seems to work well (came with little thermal pads to put between the chips and the body), and only cost 10 bucks
The Pi itself is on WiFi (thanks to morrownr on GitHub) which is then shared via the Ethernet port to a PS4 (the original PlayStation 4's onboard n WiFi is incredibly slow)
19 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by Ted on 2025-04-07 19:50:33 GMT from United States)
Yes, one my favorite things about the Pi is the add-ons. I have output relay boards, analog input controls and a PI GPIO expansion card. I built a greenhouse in the yard. It has light zones, hydroponic pumps and an exhaust fan. Of course, it has to be automated. Thanks to humble bundle programming books, youtube videos and Duck AI & Gemini, I got it to work. I probably could have bought a couple of timers off Amazon for $50. It is not as much fun doing things the easy way.
20 • single-board (by loup on 2025-04-07 22:24:36 GMT from Canada)
Sorry, but i have no spare money for futile junk!
But hey, if you do ... makes the world go round with tons of pollution.
21 • LZ VULNERABLE init and others "(RefreshOS) (by rhtoras on 2025-04-08 10:17:34 GMT from Greece)
@6 here:https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/2024/03/30/383/ it is indeed well written as to what happened to systemD based systems with LZ and so on
Also anyone can try nosystemD linux to see if they work... and while some prefer the "easy" ones i.e Devuan you can try others such as Void or Alpine which are not that hard either. There are "harder" options too i.e Noir Linux and i should say give them a go. Also we should not forget PClinuxOS with lots of software precompiled to use. You can have a good floating window manager i.e openbox, fluxbox or fvwm and be free to do whatever. There are extensive guides around the net.
Now RefreshOS distro. Well it's just a bloat version of debian to me. Better try the new addition which is mentioned above and i am talking about https://quirinux.org/ It sounds a good option if you are keen on graphics and multimedia.
22 • Do you have any single-board computer add-ons? (by Rik on 2025-04-08 12:34:44 GMT from United States)
Several that I use for amatuer radio and a few I've used for other things like building a tablet or handheld game system.
23 • @6. Funny (by GT on 2025-04-08 21:24:51 GMT from United States)
"So if you are doing what it sounds like, and trying to directly blame XZ Utils for that attack... just look at all of those NON-SYSTEMD-BASED DISTROS that have *not* been affected even in the slightest by this exploit."
I am not the poster of comment #5, and #6's comment seemed to miss #5's point entirely, but my response to this particular statement would be:
So if you are doing what it sounds like, and trying to directly blame systemd for that attack... just look at all of those SYSTEMD-BASED DISTROS that have *not* been affected even in the slightest by this exploit.
The anti-systemd cult is funny. In what world is the program that housed the malicious code not to be directly blamed for the attack? That is such a crazy way to look at it, i.e. that because some distros' use of systemd met the conditions for the malicious code to operate, it is systemd and not the malicious code that is mostly to blame? By that logic, Openssh is also partly responsible. If we are throwing out the baby with the bath water, why not just say Linux in general carries blame for all of it? #6's comment even states that Arch, one of the oldest systemd adopters, was not affected, but yet: Systemd is to blame for this!! Funny stuff.
24 • OpenSUSE (by Skooter Rallenstein on 2025-04-09 01:17:18 GMT from United States)
Open-SUSE is a very impressive Distro. I've always been puzzled - as good as it is. It is also very fragile. I manage to break it without even trying. I really don't understand why it seems to way way down in the ranks. If you just use it without tinkering - it will keep chugging along. But I am a compulsive tinkerer. I like it. I use it sometimes. And I always upset the apple cart.
25 • PorteuX (by Happy_Phanton on 2025-04-09 14:45:31 GMT from United States)
How is PorteuX pronounced?
26 • LZ thing (by rhtoras on 2025-04-09 16:21:58 GMT from Greece)
@23 you skipped my comment... no problem... people can read the truth through my link... Truth is nonsystemD distros had no problem not the opposite...
Every dependency from every extra systemD functionality is an additional attack vector. This is a fact whatever we say.
27 • Attack Vectors (by Slappy McGee on 2025-04-09 20:30:52 GMT from United States)
@26 How many attack vectors does non-SystemD init system distros have? We know it's fewer. Just wondering if its in the dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, or what.
I'd guess it's enough to warrant stringent security measures. But I'm from Mars, and thus I do not know of these things.
28 • @27: attack vectors (by picamanic on 2025-04-09 20:58:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
@27: attack vectors: the attack vectors in the distros themselves will probably be the same, regardless of what init system is used. However, the init system itself is especially sensitive to the size of the init code: 6k lines of C will be less vulnerable than 1.7 million lines of C, assuming that the two init codes are of similar maturity.
29 • Attack Vectors (by Slappy McGee on 2025-04-09 22:29:46 GMT from United States)
@28 I think I see it a bit more clearly. Perhaps I am not interpreting rhtoras's comment: "Every dependency from every extra systemD functionality is an additional attack vector."
30 • Attack vectors and openssh (by Keith S on 2025-04-10 04:27:44 GMT from United States)
@23 From what I understand of xz utils vulnernability, openssh itself was not the vector but rather the openssh-hook built into systemd to get information from another process using openssh. This highlights the basic problem I have with systemd, which is that it does not follow the thoroughly tested premise of UNIX philosophy of one understandable and transparent program doing one thing well. Instead systemd has forced most of the Linux ecosystem into the Windows philosophy of one opaque blob doing many things behind the scenes for the convenience of the developers at the top of the ecosystem so stop complaining that you don't understand it or like it you smelly peasants, go spend some money to get a certification if you want to feel like you have some control but not really.
31 • Attack vectors cont. (by Keith S on 2025-04-10 04:46:34 GMT from United States)
This is not to say that the UNIX way is never difficult or confusing. For example, I have recently been setting up a new OpenBSD box (as UNIXy as it gets) and discovered that maybe I should have been paying closer attention to the development work being done on networking the last few years. With the changes and additions to the tools for routing and DNS including autoconf vs dhcp, unbound, slaacd and unwind, and the (new to me) dhcpleased, I've been a little confused and reading and rereading lots of articles and man pages to make sure I get a proper understanding. The difference is that I have confidence that gaining that understanding is possible, whereas I gave up on any hope of understanding systemd years ago.
32 • Understand... what understand? (by Friar Tux on 2025-04-10 13:20:21 GMT from Canada)
@30 & @31 (Keith) I have, here at home, a toaster, microwave, dishwasher, blender... I don't understand how any of these work. Heck, I don't even understand the inner workings of my car. What I DO understand is that my car gets me from point A to point B. My toaster does a great job toasting my bread.
Well, the same goes for my laptop. I have no clue how it works. All I know is that I turn it on and I can get stuff done. And, yes, my system uses SystemD. The thing is, I could not get any of the non-SystemD distros to work for more than a couple of days, or until the next update. (So much for "doing one job well".) So, for me, SystemD is where it's at. I have not had any lost time issues for a decade. None. Nix. Nada. SystemD appears to do it's job, and from my experience, it does it's job quite well.
33 • @30 (by GT on 2025-04-10 15:55:26 GMT from United States)
I was being cheeky and don't think any blame falls on Openssh, Linux, or Systemd. The culprit was the person who inserted malicious code into the xz program, plain and simple. I was merely amused by #6's comment deflecting "direct blame" away from where blame directly lies and placing it on Systemd. Had the person written malicious code that utilized a program not named Systemd for its attack, I wouldn't expect the same chorus of victim-blaming.
A couple weeks ago there was someone in these comments who linked to a year's worth of Kernel vulnerabilities. Because the CVE summaries contained "systemd" in the descriptions of the issue, the person considered it evidence of systemd being a security problem despite them clearly being labeled and described as Kernel vulnerabilities. It is a pattern of behavior amongst the anti-systemd crowd, blaming it for any associated problem regardless of the root cause.
I can't think of another piece of open-source software where people who don't use the program take every opportunity to rant about how terrible and problematic it is, as if compelled to convert others to their religion. At no point in my life have I passionately hated a computer program, especially one that I do not use, let alone ranted about it every time there is a opportunity to bring it up. I find the blind, passionate hatred of a particular collection of computer code funny, that's all.
34 • Oof.. systemD vs non (by Slappy McGee on 2025-04-10 16:32:00 GMT from United States)
@32 Friar Tux sed: "I could not get any of the non-SystemD distros to work for more than a couple of days, or until the next update."
Do tell. Well, I've never had non-systemD breakage. I have both types of distros on various machines and love ("fave") some of each. Rocky serves me well, as does MX (I know I know, MX is sorta free of systemD).
Back when systemD began its invasion, I was completely unaware of it as I did my iso thing and installed my distro hopping ways as always.
Then the fights began here there and everywhere comments were allowed. I still don't get it.. with the exception of the "millions of lines of code" remarks we keep seeing, and that about how fascist-like the systemD developers have become (etc). As you say, my toaster and my cars work fine without my say-so on how.
BUT.. I am miffed by the associations being mentioned in the wars between systemD and Windows/Microsoft. As if the invasion is the Microsoft Army using systemD as the first line of troops in the approaching phalanx. Is that what's happening? If so why are old timey Linux distro developers using systemD?
35 • systemd (by Keith S on 2025-04-10 17:01:48 GMT from United States)
I gave the wrong impression I think. I am not a fanatical hater of systemd. In fact, I recently did a little distro hopping when I was having some trouble with MX Linux (using SysV, but that wasn't the issue) and really liked OpenSUSE. I almost adopted it as my daily driver but switching from the Debian style package management to Yast was annoying enough that I went back to MX Linux. (I figured out that the WiFi problem was some bug caused by booting with the power cord plugged in, reproducible on several other distros.)
And no, I don't understand every bit of how the OS on my laptop works. My point was, and is, that systemd is very opaque compared to OpenBSD, or even MX Linux or Devuan. And if I really want to dig into the nuts and bolts of those systems, I have a much better chance of achieving some understanding than I ever will with systemd. If we bring cars into it, I've had cars that I regularly tuned and at least theoretically could have overhauled with the right tools, whereas our current car is basically managed with binary blobs in the all-important computer that controls it.
I believe the comparison to Windows is appropriate too, but I'm not trying to start a holy war. The systemd defenders are at least as passionate as the anti-systemd crowd. But many people just want to get work done and Linux distros (systemd or otherwise) work almost as well as Windows or Mac laptops for those purposes.
36 • Last comment on this... (by GT on 2025-04-10 18:02:47 GMT from United States)
"The systemd defenders are at least as passionate as the anti-systemd crowd."
I challenge you to find one instance of a "systemd defender" praising the program unprompted or via a non sequitur in response to a previous comment. The opposite happens here virtually every week, like #6's response to #5's comment in this issue, whose comment had nothing to do with systemd. There are several websites dedicated entirely to bashing systemd. I have never come across an entire website dedicated to defending or praising systemd, but perhaps there is one. I think you mistake people responding to the anti-systemd crowd ranting profusely about a program they don't use as "defenders" when really they are just tired of hearing their loud, holier-than-thou stances on init systems over and over and over and over... Don't like systemd? You clearly aren't alone. Go to one of those websites that provides the proof of its evil nature and hang out together, but please stop trying to convert others to your religion whenever there is a systemd-adjacent topic that becomes a window for airing out your grievances that Linux is being destroyed by the systemd cancer virus. We "systemd defenders" are tired of hearing about it. I don't care about systemd at all. If the distro I use hadn't adopted systemd, I wouldn't be using it, but it did, so I do. It doesn't matter to me. Never in my life have I brought up systemd as a topic of discussion online or in-person, unless it was in response to an anti-systemd zealot who made my eyes roll hard enough to want to say something...like suggesting it shared at least as much blame as the program that actually housed malicious code as part of a deliberate malware attack.
37 • @35 (clarification) (by GT on 2025-04-10 18:15:12 GMT from United States)
@35, Starting at "Don't like systemd?", I was addressing the anti-systemd crowd at-large, not you. Apologies for it sounding like a personal attack.
38 • systemd Distro - ParticleOS (by FledermausMann on 2025-04-10 21:24:22 GMT from Australia)
From the lips of the man himself, Lennart we have ParticleOS, a systemD linux immutable distro:
"And over all those 12 years I kept wondering, how would I actually build an OS for a system or for an appliance, and what are the components necessary to achieve that."
"ParticleOS is a fully customizable immutable distribution implementing the concepts described in Fitting Everything Together.
The crucial difference that makes ParticleOS unique compared to other immutable distributions is that users build the ParticleOS image themselves and sign it with their own keys instead of installing vendor signed images. This allows configuring the image to your liking by having full control over which distribution is used as the base and which packages are installed into the image."
Question: Does Lennart Pottering use his own distro; ParticleOS
Answer: No. He uses Fedora
39 • Holy wars (by not on the defensive on 2025-04-10 22:30:35 GMT from Australia)
@36 and @32 well said, and it has needed to be, I think many of us use whatever our distro uses and are not spending our days getting into a rage about something that clearly works for us (and if it didn't we'd switch to something else, that's the beauty of Linux).
I commit several cardinal sins according to the internet but I don't care - I also use Ubuntu with Gnome and have no issues with Snaps (actually I quite like them). I thank Canonical and the paid and unpaid people who work on putting it together and indeed anyone who maintains a working distro or develops free and open source software - you are all doing great work and are allowing us great unwashed to benefit.
Long may it continue.
40 • systemd, in saecula saeculorum (by Deep Friar on 2025-04-10 23:31:37 GMT from United States)
To someone who visits here every few months or so, it may resemble this old joke:
At the Holy Linux Monastery, Abbot Costello decided to put a stop to the chatter, and decried a vow of silence. One brother would be allowed one sentence once per year. Peace reigned for 11 months. Then it was Brother Bob's turn to speak:
B B: "I hate systemd!"
Another year of silence, then Brother Tom:
B T: "I love systemd!"
Another year, then Brother Joe:
B J: "I'm getting sick and tired of all the bickering about systemd!"
41 • Raspberry Pi, and systemd (by Simon on 2025-04-11 08:57:09 GMT from New Zealand)
Re Raspberry Pi, I love it, both the affordability and the standardisation: it would be better if it were fully open hardware, but it's so nice to see affordable tech spreading through schools. In my country Apple has dominated this market for decades and schools have wasted millions of dollars on massively overpriced tech... it's great to see kids learning on gadgets that their families can actually afford for a change. Plus the software's free, of course.
@41: Amen. There's a whole culture of folk like that with NIS who aren't really motivated to improve software, they just want to stamp their ego all over it and see their flashy overcomplicated bells and whistles replace the stuff that actually works better. A lot of them (probably most of them) come from Windows backgrounds, so never really understood UNIX in the first place, and the collaborative principles of UNIX cultures. Unfortunately now that most Linux users also come from Windows, they look at stuff like systemd and its problems are just invisible to them, they're just not looking for qualities related to systems admin and software development because that stuff isn't even on their radar, they're staring at their GUIs and saying "well it looks like it's working fine to me, I don't see a problem".
42 • @37 (by Keith S on 2025-04-10 23:29:14 GMT from United States)
No offense taken at all. I rambled too much about the reasons for my distrust of systemd myself. These are ancient arguments for me and easily spill out without any forethought or malice. I am not trying to convert anyone to use any OS in particular. (OK, that's not quite true. You should all ditch Linux for OpenBSD and Android for GrapheneOS. But after 15 years of evangelizing, I already know none of you will consider it.)
My family and friends all consider me to be a crank on the topic of security as they all blithely continue to send reams of personal data to Big Tech through Windows computers and Android and Apple phones using every app that offers itself in their feed. Once in a great while my wife will ask me to open her iPhone for reasons and there will be uncountable numbers of apps open and running. When I tell friends that YouTube insists that I log in even just to watch funny cat videos but I refuse to give google the satisfaction even though I know they know who owns my phone, and that now New Pipe won't work for me either, they roll their eyes. They all long ago gave up sending me Facebook links and similar stuff. I'm not anywhere close to Terry A. Davis levels of paranoia, but I was always sympathetic to his rants.
So you see, for me systemd is almost an afterthought in the vast scheme of things. And if sharing my crank ideas offended anyone here, I sincerely apologize. Please continue to compute in your preferred manner and ignore my rantings. For my part, I will do my best to check my rants in advance.
43 • systemd (by Jesse on 2025-04-11 12:24:45 GMT from Canada)
@32: " I have, here at home, a toaster, microwave, dishwasher, blender... I don't understand how any of these work. Heck, I don't even understand the inner workings of my car. What I DO understand is that my car gets me from point A to point B.... Well, the same goes for my laptop. I have no clue how it works. All I know is that I turn it on and I can get stuff done. And, yes, my system uses SystemD. ... SystemD appears to do it's job, and from my experience, it does it's job quite well.
"
I'd like to point out that what you're basically saying is you don't know how systemd works and, since it works passably well for you, that you don't care how it does what it does, or that it causes problems for other people.
Your post is basically a combination of apathy and ignorance dressed up as an endorsement. Which doesn't seem all that appealing of a way to approach things, at least to me.
It's a bit like saying that you don't know what in cigarettes and don't care how many doctors warn you about the potential health risks, you're going to keep smoking because it hasn't hurt you. That can be true and you might even get away with it unharmed, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Admittedly systemd doesn't cause cancer, but it has been the cause of (or a catalyst) in any number of security issues, data loss, and privilege escalation. To wave that all away with a "I don't care how it works" is willfully ignoring the issues.
44 • Nailed it (by Friar Tux on 2025-04-11 13:43:59 GMT from Canada)
@43 (Jesse) You are absolutely correct - to a point. I AM blissfully ignorant of most of the workings in my OS, especially SystemD. And, yes, I don't care. Just as I don't care how any of the other appliances I mentioned work so long as they do. Most of us, humans, are actually like that in most of what we do, hence the phrase - if it ain't broke, don't "fix". And the nice part of that is that we still invent stuff in such a way that blissfully ignorant, guacamole brained, old fools like me can use said stuff. Talking about SystemD in particular, I prefer it only because all, and according to my notes, ALL the non SystemD distros, so far, have failed me. Most would install nicely, most would work for a day or so, then not boot up, with some sort of error. SystemD has never done that, no matter the distro. BUT, I also know that I DON'T know if the faulty in the failing distros was the init system or not. ALL I know is that those that HAVEN'T failed were using Systemd.
Having blathered on as I have, here's the main take away... it doesn't matter what a person uses, or how, if it works for them, does it really matter what the rest of us actually think?
45 • systemd (by Jesse on 2025-04-11 14:20:40 GMT from Canada)
@44: " ALL the non SystemD distros, so far, have failed me. Most would install nicely, most would work for a day or so, then not boot up, with some sort of error."
It sounds like you either haven't used many non-systemd distributions or had statistically highly unlikely bad luck. Almost all of the distros running non-systemd init are more conservative projects (Slackware, Devuan, Void, etc) which are highly unlikely to break. And, even if they did break, the chances are close to zero it was init-related. It doesn't really matter that the projects you had trouble with were non-systemd because there is no evidence (and it's very improbably) that init was the cause of your problems.
> it doesn't matter what a person uses, or how, if it works for them, does it really matter what the rest of us actually think?
To a point. I mean there is a degree of live-and-let-live which should prevail. On the other hand, it does cause a problem when software gets saddled with systemd dependencies because "most people use systemd". For example, GNOME has soft dependencies on system and Snap has a hard dependency on systemd. And the developers refuse to fix it because they figure "enough people just use systemd, the rest don't matter".
A lot of people who don't like/use systemd would be fine with it (and other people using it) if it didn't end up dragging other components into its orbit and breaking software that was previously working. I guess what I'm saying is the systemd project (and projects linking to it) doesn't "live and let live" which makes it hard to simply peacefully ignore if you're trying to use something else.
46 • SystemD = Cancer.. sorta (by Slappy McGee on 2025-04-11 22:36:55 GMT from United States)
I when Jesse checks in on a discussion's subject matter. Succinct and informative. But leaves me wondering why tech/security savvy devs are globally adopting that init and all of its warts. I have seen the explanations about how it's easier in some ways or other, but are these developers of Linux distros selling their souls to the Devil?
I'm not a smoker for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is knowing first hand what it can do. I again wonder why so many devs "smoke" so to speak, knowing what SystemD can do as to elevated priviliges and other security issues. I hate to beat a dead horse, but it seems like that init would have died a sort of amoral death if it were... cancer causing ("that bad").
47 • systemd (by Jesse on 2025-04-11 23:49:39 GMT from Canada)
@46: "But leaves me wondering why tech/security savvy devs are globally adopting that init and all of its warts. I have seen the explanations about how it's easier in some ways or other, but are these developers of Linux distros selling their souls to the Devil?"
I wouldn't go quite so drastic as to say they sold their souls. I think systemd makes a lot of things easier for developers, even if it makes some things less convenient for admins and users. In some circles, especially commercially-backed software, there is a strong motivation to make development quick and easy. So some developers have got into the habit of saying "Let systemd handle it" Timers? Login? Namespaces? Logging? Sure, you could implement it the classic way, or roll it yourself, OR you could "let systemd handle it".
This results in some software relying on systemd, or being packaged with systemd in mind, which means the rest of the ecosystem around that software either needs to work with systemd too or do the work to go around it. (See GNOME, Snap, etc mentioned above.) Ubuntu famously adopted systemd because Debian adopted it and doing the same was easier than patching around the change. Linux Mint more or less followed for the same reason. Most developers don't want to put in the work to get around systemd when just accepting that the Big Names (Red Hat and Debian) are using it and learning to live with it.
And it's not that systemd is terrible at what it does, but it has had more than its fair share of issues which makes a lot of people wary of it. If you are curious, I wrote more about init and systemd here:
https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20240527#qa
and
https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20210125#qa
Number of Comments: 47
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