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1 • GrapheneOS (by Pumpino on 2025-03-31 00:27:52 GMT from Australia)
I was recently running GrapheneOS on one of my Pixels. It was fine, and I liked being able to disable network permissions to Gboard, for example. However, one thing that annoyed me was the updates every few days and the lengthy "Verifying apps" after rebooting.
A happy medium for me is running LineageOS with NikGapps core installed. I don't log in to my Google account, and I use Aurora Store and Obtainium to download apps from the play store and opensource apps. It works well. I also only have to install LineageOS updates once per month, when it's convenient for me.
2 • Linux Packaging (by Wedge009 on 2025-03-31 00:36:21 GMT from Australia)
'Portable packages are large, they take a long time to download, and they use a lot of disk space. Even with deduplication efforts, portable packages are big, heavy beasts that require a framework in place to operate. They don't integrate into the host operating system well and there are still performance issues to address.'
I think this is a big part of why I've - to date - resisted using any of the portable packaging options. The situation reminds me of the days of 'DLL hell' in Windows systems and how the solution to that seemed to be every application provider was responsible for providing the necessary DLL dependencies - especially the _specific_ versions of them - which leads to the aforementioned bloat. While traditional packages continue to be maintained (eg I use Mozilla's .deb package of Firefox rather than Ubuntu's Snap), I appreciate the minimisation of library duplication. But if the prediction of portable packages becoming the dominant form of distribution comes to pass, I suppose I'll have to accept the duplication at some point as I did when I was still using Windows (I only jumped to Linux for my primary OS fairly recently, when Windows 7 lost mainstream support in January 2020).
3 • OpenBSD security for third party apps (by OpenBSD Hobbyist on 2025-03-31 01:18:53 GMT from United States)
The review gets it wrong in terms of the security of systems like OpenBSD and GrapheneOS when installing third party apps. Several web browsers are packaged with pledge and unveil, which run them in sandboxes. This is much more secure than the defaults on most Linux systems. Likewise, even when installing third party packages that are not protected by Pledge and Unveil, you still have added security because of the underlying protections built into the operating system. It is not fool-proof, but you are definitely better off with OpenBSD and loads of third-party packages than you would be on a default Linux system with those same packages. The same is true to GrapheneOS!
4 • GrapheneOS - my experience (by Green Red Black on 2025-03-31 03:45:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have been running GOS for a couple of years now, and would like to thank the developers for their impressive efforts. It has allowed me to confidently carry a mobile device - a highly-functional pocket computer suitable for many use-cases, especially off-line maps (OrganicMaps) - without too much anxiety about the eyes and tentacles of the burgeoning authoritarians and predatory abusers entrenching surveillance-capitalism.
FWIW, I am not a phone user. I do not use a network SIM card, instead wifi only.
I've never had "pop-up ads" like Jesse because I practise safe computing, only installing clean FLOSS apps from F-Droid or Izzy or similar reputable sources which I can check. Not stuff via Google.
I also heartily recommend the multiple-users feature - further separating, limiting, isolating and obfuscating - which allows per-account selections of apps and preferences, and multiple separately-sandboxed browser environments, each for a different use-case.
Yes, a bit clunky, but hopefully more effective. Privacy/security vs convenience is an age-old trade-off, and privacy/security requires a vigilant ongoing mindset. It's a process.
Yes, there are daily niggles and complaints - I wish they'd incorporate a status-bar network-monitor like LineageOS and others. And some mechanism for shared-storage between multiple users.
But the focus of GOS is a no-frills, hardened, core system. And I appreciate it.
5 • Open Technology Fund - de-funding F-Droid, Tor etc (by Green Red Black on 2025-03-31 05:39:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
This is extremely worrying. Especially F-Droid.
There are two diametrically opposed forces at play in the world. On one side, those trying to Liberate and Empower, Include and Protect, championing rich diverse robust ecosystems, variously motivated by compassion and altruism or enlightened self-interest. On the other side, too-often spearheaded by sociopaths and charismatic demagogues, the forces trying to Restrict and Ensnare, Exploit or Exclude, insatiably seeking to engineer particular monocultures, motivated variously by less-than-enlightened creed, greed, ego, fear, and sheer throwback dog-eat-dog blood-lust.
All communities and organisations truly supporting the FLOSS ecosystem - especially its tools and channels offering liberating, private and secure alternatives - represent a threat to the full-spectrum-dominance practices of those malign forces, and an offensive ideological affront to their right-wing world-view. Nearly a quarter of a century ago, the extremist Ballmer infamously called Linux a "cancer" and although this one individual might have had a Damascene moment and subsequently "seen the light," there are still too many who definitely have not.
In the Whitehouse we have someone an Aussie comedian refers to as "the Tangerine Tyrant" surrounded by dangerously tribal extremists and facilitators. Conspicuously de-funding "organisations for the Public Good" like F-Droid and Tor is not just about playing to their gallery, but also actively seeking to starve and strangle anything outside their Tech-Bros preferred monocultures.
The dystopias are materialising as we watch, helpless. Where was "The Handmaid's Tale" set?
FLOSSers don't just need to be de-Googling. Prudently, we need to be de-centralising and de-Americanising key parts of our infrastructure.
Yes, it's worrying.
6 • Portable Packages (flatpack etc.) (by Mike Cornelison on 2025-03-31 06:19:51 GMT from Germany)
You omitted the Linux equivalent of "DLL hell". Traditional packages only work on the distribution they were built on (sometimes on others if library function versions match). The libraries vary from one distro to another, and from one distro release to another. "Build once, run anywhere" is not possible. However, take a look at Windows. I have a GUI app I made for Windows NT in the 1990s. The binary executable, nearly 30 years old, still runs flawlessly on Windows 11. How does Microsoft do this? Why does Linux have such a problem? Is it because Linux developers have little regard for backwards compatibility? Would appreciate your perspective.
7 • portability (by jazzfelix on 2025-03-31 07:28:42 GMT from Germany)
@6 As I understood it: Windows tries to keep its ABI from older versions. Newer Windows versions get a new ABI and on top of that they need to provide the old ABIs. That works (mostly). There are also cases on Windows where older binaries cannot be executed any more. The same is true for Linux. The difference being you got also a userland ABI. You can run a piece of software on Linux 6.14 kernel, which was running on 1.0 kernel as long as you have no other dependencies to libraries from the userland. Jesse also makes that point somewhere in the article, that Linux is distinct regarding kernel + userland being 2 different things unlike other operating systems which are combining userland + kernel. The BSD approach by the way is different. BSD is not backwards compatible, because they do not provide the old ABI. I personally like the BSD approach, because it saves you a lot of troubles/ gives you a cleaner and smaller system. The drawback being, you need to compile your older software to produce a binary that matches the new ABI.
8 • non-duopoly mobile (by Vukota on 2025-03-31 08:03:49 GMT from Serbia)
Sorry, but my phone as a first thing needs to work reliably, be easy to use and for all intended purposes for which I may be forced to use cell phone (I have at least 10 to 15 applications like this, that I have to use periodically). Open source OSes on mobile does not provide this.
For Server, Desktop, Laptop and even Tablet use I can have more than one if it is really necessary (forced on me), but for cellphone I am being forced by different institutions and manufacturers to use one and only.
9 • SailfishOS (by Filip on 2025-03-31 08:10:23 GMT from Slovenia)
It's a bit odd that Sailfish is not in the list. Yeah, it's Europe centric but it does work elsewhere.
10 • Plank and Plank Reloaded (by Always_curious_about_FOSS on 2025-03-31 08:43:15 GMT from Germany)
Can there be ready-developed software that can still be used even if the last version was 4 or 5 years ago?
How vulnerable is a tool like Plank, which has not been further developed, to possible security gaps?
For example the Openbox Windowmanager. Its last Version is from 2015.
An other example is AbiWord. The Ubuntu Resipority says its not safe because its not mantained.
So I am using Openbox and Plank and also Abiword. They are very simple and lightweight as I like it this way.
And so some Distros offering these tools still.
Nevertheless, I would like to try out the Plank Reloaded
11 • Opinion Poll - Smartphonedistro (by Always_curious_about_FOSS on 2025-03-31 08:54:25 GMT from Germany)
The missing Point in the Poll was: "I don't have a Smartphone".
And in deed I don't own a Smartphone. Since I was able to share in the freedom of my operating system in 2014 when I changed frpm XP to Linux, as no longer willing to use a proprietary OS.
But it is becoming increasingly difficult to participate in this society without a smartphone.
Perhaps a Smartphone with Postmarked OS. I was amazed by Alpine Linux on my Laptop.
I wouldn't even know if I would be able to install it on a used smartphone myself.
12 • Which non-duopoly mobile OS do you run? (by James on 2025-03-31 10:10:10 GMT from United States)
I don't believe I have the needed skills to put a non duopoly system on my phone. Until a major carrier sells an open source system on the phone, I will have to remain with what exists.
13 • non-duopoly (by Dave Postles on 2025-03-31 10:30:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
I clicked UBPorts because it's on my tablet, but I still have a Cyanogen phone which I use. I have a Murena One which I bought by mistake since it doesn't support any UK carriers.
14 • Buold once run anywhere (by Jesse on 2025-03-31 10:48:21 GMT from Canada)
@6: " "Build once, run anywhere" is not possible. However, take a look at Windows. I have a GUI app I made for Windows NT in the 1990s. The binary executable, nearly 30 years old, still runs flawlessly on Windows 11. How does Microsoft do this? Why does Linux have such a problem?"
This is a lot of misinformation in a short paragraph.
"Build once and run anywhere" works on Linux just as it does on Windows. I have 25 year old binaries that run on Linux now the same way they did back in the Red Hat Linux 9 days.
There are two ways to do it. Either statically linking the binary or shipping the dependencies with the executable. The process is the same on Linux and Windows and works for the same reason: strict backwards compatibility at the core level.
The reason some packages don't work on newer versions (of Windows or Linux) is the developer assumed their dependencies would always be built into the OS. This results in DLL Hell on Windows or missing library errors on Linux.
15 • Phone system (by Jesse on 2025-03-31 11:22:51 GMT from Canada)
@12: "I don't believe I have the needed skills to put a non duopoly system on my phone. Until a major carrier sells an open source system on the phone, I will have to remain with what exists."
Why don't you buy a phone with the OS you want from one of the open source providers? iodeOS and Murena and Volla all sell phones with open operating systems pre-installed.
16 • Different OSses (by Frank on 2025-03-31 11:25:20 GMT from India)
Most of the entries in the non duopoly OS list here are just forks of Android with some proprietary extensions removed. Do they really qualify as independent OSses? Resurrection of the Symbian/Windows for Mobile OSses would definitely be challenging nonetheless they would be proper candidates to check the duopoly.
17 • Security (by Forest for the trees on 2025-03-31 11:30:23 GMT from Canada)
@3: "The review gets it wrong in terms of the security of systems like OpenBSD and GrapheneOS when installing third party apps. Several web browsers are packaged with pledge and unveil, which run them in sandboxes.
This is missing the bigger point, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Most third-party software on OpenBSD is not sandboxed. On Linux it usually is. Especially if network access is involved.
"This is much more secure than the defaults on most Linux systems."
It's not, really, it's doing about the same thing. A port on OpenBSD with sandboxing has about the same protection as applications on Linux with MAC protections.
"Likewise, even when installing third party packages that are not protected by Pledge and Unveil, you still have added security because of the underlying protections built into the operating system."
Not really, no. When the security issues are in the third-party packages it doesn't really help if the underlying OS is "secure". With GrapheneOS as an example, most of its protection comes from its minimalism and hardened code. But if the user installs Uber, Spotify, and Chome on their phone, most of the practical benefits of GrapheneOS security go out the window because the normal functioning of those apps is to collect data, phone home, and leak information. Nothing the OS does can help against that.
"It is not fool-proof, but you are definitely better off with OpenBSD and loads of third-party packages than you would be on a default Linux system with those same packages."
Probably not, at least not with a Linux distribution that has SELinux or AppArmor installed.
18 • CalyxOS? (by Critter on 2025-03-31 13:42:14 GMT from United States)
I was surprised to not see CalyxOS as an alternative to the duopoly. I know several who use it. I suppose that would be covered under "other" but still...
19 • Mobbies (by Treen HQ on 2025-03-31 14:16:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
Have at least six mobiles thanks to the generosity of well-meaning friends.
Never use them. Enjoy my privacy, tend my personal data just as diligently as my garden. Tin box under the desk, peripherals aside, selection old and new 'disks', Various Linux incarnations - does all I need without wearing hole in trousers, etc.
20 • GrapheneOS (by GrapheneOS user on 2025-03-31 14:48:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
GrapheneOS is good, so good I cannot imagine using another currently available mobile OS. I use it on a Pixel 5, Pixel 8 and the Pixel Tablet.
I think Jesse's review misses discussing the two biggest benefits of using GrapheneOS (GOS):
Firstly, the documentation is superb and very accessible though the website. It is found under the Features, Useage and FAQ tabs. The forum is also a valuable source of tips on how to setup/organise your profiles and apps (use the forum search field to find the best advice from older posts).
Secondly, the use of user profiles and sandboxed Google Play Services + better granularity of enabling or disabling what an app can access. Google Play can be switched on and off at will in different proliles. Please read the documentation to understand this better.
It does take quite a while to become familiar with all the extra capabilities of GOS over Android/AOSP). In my case it was about 3 months before I had really understood how I wanted to structue my profiles and the app installs.
GrapheneOS is very clever to let you choose your own balance between no google stuff and the default
Android experience. In UI terms, the only big difference is that you can live without any GooglePlay at all or use
the GOS Sandboxed GooglePlay (with full control to disable it whenever you wish, or limit it to profiles of your
choosing).
GrapheneOS really is a beautiful thing. My tip would be to buy a cheap second hand Pixel 5, 5a, 6 or 6a then install GOS and using it just through wifi, work your way through the documentation until you are familiar with how you want to configure GOS to do what you want. Then you are ready to buy a more expensive and supported Pixel device.
21 • @5: “De-Americanising” (by SuperOscar on 2025-03-31 15:27:19 GMT from Finland)
Well put, @5! Now if never de-Americasing of everything is sorely needed. Many have already joined #BoycottUSA and sought to replace everything even reeking of the US. The trickiest part of that will be in the mobile, as both Android and iOS are in the hands of conglomerates with Trumpist ties.
22 • Favourite non-duopoly mobile operating system (by nobody on 2025-03-31 16:42:24 GMT from Germany)
Opinion Poll: Favourite non-duopoly mobile operating system:
I voted: Non of the above
Reason: Do not know any android alt.. ( Support on any smartph.? Easy Install? Ready to use ? )
23 • Flatpak vs Snap vs AppImage (by Scott Dowdle on 2025-03-31 18:54:58 GMT from United States)
Canonical us using Snap for both CLI and GUI programs. Flatpak is primarily targeting GUI applications. AppImage, so far as I know, is also primarily targeting GUI applications.
Unless that changes, the only one of the three more at risk of going mainly portable packages would be Snap.
Flatpak on Fedora, for example, is for GUI applications only... which doesn't include, so far as I know, desktop environments nor window managers... only applications. It would be nice if DEs were done via Flatpak as one could more easily switch major DE versions during the lifecycle of a supported release... which they don't typically do via package-based updates.
24 • Oooooh (by Osmo on 2025-03-31 21:57:42 GMT from Sweden)
@22 ok so this is me just saying you have a WORLD of fun ahead of you. Seriously I envy you for being at that early stage of exploration (and if you're like me, try a secondary device first, and please do not - like me - try to throw it out a window :D )
Seriously. Check them out - its a whole new world for you out there!
25 • @5 Open Technology Fund (by FledermausMann on 2025-04-01 00:08:20 GMT from Australia)
>>FLOSSers don't just need to be de-Googling. Prudently, we need to be de-centralising and de-Americanising key parts of our infrastructure.
But you are ok with American tax payers money funding these opensource projects, such as Let's Encrypt,TAILS, OpenVPN, FDroid and TOR (which already has suspicious links to the CIA in its origin).
You don't see any issue at all with the US Government funding these projects, no conflicts of interest? Having uncle Sam have an interests in these projects doesn't really sit well with me personally. Also, we don't know what conditions are imposed on these projects in order to receive funding.
Fdroid received $400,000 from the OTF
TOR received $800,000 from the OTF
Let's Encrypt received $800,000 from the OTF
I'm sure just from a financial standpoint, every penny helps these projects, however FDroid is an app store only. It does not in itself produce any software. There are also other ways to get FOSS apps; namely directly from their Github repo, or using Obtainium, or Aurora Store, IzzyonDroid or AppLounge or FossDroid or Accrescent or OpenAPK. Let me count the ways.... FDroid, though popular, is not the only choice out there.
FDroid do not release financial information, which is very odd for an opensource project. Also F-Droid Limited is a UK corporation. Yes. American tax payers funding an opaque non-US project. Who knows where that $400,000 is going?
Tails which also receives funding from the OTF is created by TOR, which also receives separate funding from the OTF. What is this money being used for and how much money are these projects receiving in total every year?
Apparently in regards to the TOR Project "recent financials they provide are for available only for partway through 2022 according to IRS records, and show that the majority of funding is by the United States government. 53.5% of all funds that Tor received as of 2022 which counts to $3.2 million was from the United States government."
I will just leave it at that. The situation regarding the OTF is not a black and white issue mainly due to the lack of financial transparency from these projects and possible conflicts of interest.
26 • @25 & @5 Open Technology Fund (by Keith S on 2025-04-01 00:52:12 GMT from United States)
I thought everyone knew that TOR is a CIA honeypot. Apparently not, though. It's a bit like those who push SELinux for security while ignoring that it is designed by the NSA. Why would you trust that?
I admit that I didn't realize that F-Droid and others were also funded by the US government. Hopefully Aurora store is not.
27 • phone OS (by Josh on 2025-04-01 05:44:37 GMT from United States)
I voted "None of the above", though I suppose I could have voted "Other".
I use a Nokia dumb phone running KaiOS. It has a basic browser, media player, and a few other smart-ish functions. But, as far as I know, it isn't tied to Spygle or Crapple. It can also be used as a wifi hotspot if I REALLY need the 'net when I'm away from home.
28 • @25 US Detox (by picamanic on 2025-04-01 06:53:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
@25: whilst the Trump regime continues to hit out at everything that is non-US with transient Tariffs and defund such obscure activities as Computer Security, a progressive removal of unnecessesary dependencies seems sensible. I am sure that the relatively small sums of money needed to support these important projects can be raised without US Government involvement.
29 • 15 • Phone system (by Jesse on 2025-03-31 11:22:51 GMT from Canada) (by James on 2025-04-01 10:05:44 GMT from United States)
I have never heard of any of them. I have never seen a vendor selling them in my area. I live in northern Wisconsin where Cell Com dominates. It's pretty much Android or Apple. Samsung or I phone. I don't like either of those and have hard time even getting a Motorola around here. I use Consumer Cellular for my carrier.
30 • SELinux and Aurora store (by Jesse on 2025-04-01 10:07:36 GMT from Canada)
@26: "It's a bit like those who push SELinux for security while ignoring that it is designed by the NSA. Why would you trust that?"
It is open source, so it doesn't matter who wrote SELinux. It has been around for 20 years and can be audited by anyone. No issues have been found with its design.
"I didn't realize that F-Droid and others were also funded by the US government. Hopefully Aurora store is not"
Pretty sure they are not, especially since they are seeking donations. https://aurorastore.org/donate/
31 • Non duopoly mobile operating systems (by penguinx86 on 2025-04-01 12:43:57 GMT from United States)
There are 2 reasons I don't use non duopoly mobile operating systems:
1) The lack of compatibility with MY smartphone hardware
2) The lack of mainstream apps that all my friends use
32 • Lack of mainstream apps (by Flavianoep on 2025-04-01 13:34:37 GMT from Brazil)
One of the problems of using a non mainstream phone operating system, apart from the lack of hardware compatibility, is lack of apps. Not only mainstream apps. Apps in general. There is an appification of services, where everything depends on an app. There is at least a solution for that, albeit not free in any sense. Jolla, a Finnish company, provides an environment called AppSupport, with which is possible to run most of Android apps.
33 • Correcting: Lack of mainstream apps (by Flavianoep on 2025-04-01 13:54:54 GMT from Brazil)
I have to correct what I said. AppSupport is not a consumer product that anyone can just buy and install, but a product to be licensed by OEMs. You must buy a Jolla phone or buy and install Sailfish OS (not sure about the last one) to get AppSupport.
34 • survey should have a choice for don't own a mobile device (by paul on 2025-04-01 14:18:50 GMT from United States)
survey should have a choice for don't own a mobile device
35 • @26 Aurora Store (by Keith S on 2025-04-01 15:28:03 GMT from United States)
Good to know that Aurora Store isn't funded by the US government. I will donate something today, along with a couple of other projects.
As for SELinux, I know it is auditable. We like to say that about all open source projects. How often does it happen though? Just a question, not doubting. I know OpenBSD gets fuzzed fairly regularly, but I don't hear much about others getting a thorough audit.
36 • @23 Flatpak, etc (by Robert on 2025-04-01 16:06:50 GMT from United States)
As I understand it, Flatpak was designed to assume running in a desktop session. Would be pretty hard to distribute a desktop environment as a flatpak though.
I do agree though - desktop environments are large, typically messy installs. If there was one thing that really should be shipped in a containerized package like Flatpak, its desktops. I kind of wonder if that would solve the persistent integration problems between apps and desktops as well.
And you are completely right that Snap is the only format with the potential to take over a distribution. No other really has the ability to package command line utilities for use without a desktop, as far as I'm aware.
37 • SailfishOS user (by Shawn on 2025-04-01 17:30:15 GMT from United States)
Been using SailfishOS as my daily driver since 2017. The Android app compatibility is the key. I don't want for any apps, and I love it's not just a reskinned/stripped down Android but actual Linux under the hood.
38 • SELINUX (by FledermausMann on 2025-04-01 22:57:37 GMT from Australia)
Aurora Store. As far as anyone can tell, this is a one man project by Rahul Kumar Patel originating out of India. Kudos to that guy for making something so powerful and helpful to the entire Android community.
Regarding SELINUX, I want to add my 2 cents here as there is some misunderstanding surrounding it as well as the security of FOSS.
Opensource software has a trust issue. In the past whenever this would be brought up, hard core believers would inevitably retort with the ol' "just look at the source code if you don't trust it" remark.
This is a valid response, if:
1) you are a programmer who knows (C, PHP, Python, Java, Perl, Assembly, Shell, Kotlin, Ruby and more) all at a proficient level to understand the source
2) if the program is not too large where you can read it in a reasonable amount of time, preferably not more than 1 week.
But this "just look at the source" fails when dealing with normal users who are not programmers and when the program is millions of lines of code large. This "look at the source" is also known as "many eyes" and is Linux's main form of code security against malware and backdoors.
How easy is it to slip a backdoor into legitimate looking code? Not too difficult. There was even the Underhanded C Contest to prove it. "The Underhanded C Contest was a programming contest to turn out code that is malicious, but passes a rigorous inspection, and looks like an honest mistake even if discovered. The contest rules define a task, and a malicious component. Entries must perform the task in a malicious manner as defined by the contest, and hide the malice. Contestants are allowed to use C-like compiled languages to make their programs."
The "many eyes" practice in Linux has failed. It failed with the NSA OpenSSL backdoor, it failed with XZ-utils and no doubt it will fail again, because there are simply not enough skilled programmers who are also security analysts looking at all the programs that comprise Linux. It is just impossible. The size of the Linux kernel and systemd for example would means that a single person would be spending months if not years analyzing code.
This brings me to SELINUX and the NSA.
The "many eyes" theory has been invalidated as mentioned due to the NSA backdoor in OpenSSL. Yes, the "trustworthy" NSA backdoor'd OpenSSL and also created SELINUX and we are supposed to blindly trust this organization that it is safe to use.
SELinux has never been audited by any trustworthy truly US-independent entity, making it nearly as untrustworthy as closed source.
The Guardian reported regarding the NSA, in one of their document releases from Snowden, that the public is flat out named as the “adversary.” Among other things, the "program" is designed to “insert vulnerabilities into commercial encryption systems”. These would be known to the NSA, but to no one else, including ordinary customers, who are tellingly referred to in the document as “adversaries”.
The NSA considers US citizens as adversaries. Think about that for a moment. Knowing this, how can anyone think that that SELINUX designed by the NSA is there to protect Linux users?
Snowden's leaked documents showed us that the NSA and GCHQ have basically gotten backdoors into various key security offerings used online, in part by controlling the standards efforts, and in part by sometimes covertly introducing security vulnerabilities into various products. They haven’t “cracked” encryption standards, but rather just found a different way in.
The NSA spends $250 million per year to “covertly” influence tech product designs. The report suggest two ways this is happening. First by infiltrating standards-bodies: Independent security experts have long suspected that the NSA has been introducing weaknesses into security standards, a fact confirmed for the first time by another secret document. It shows the agency worked covertly to get its own version of a draft security standard issued by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology approved for worldwide use in 2006.
The NSA is recruiting covert operatives within telco firms to insert vulnerabilities:
To help secure an insider advantage, GCHQ also established a Humint Operations Team (HOT). Humint, short for “human intelligence” refers to information gleaned directly from sources or undercover agents.
This GCHQ team was, according to an internal document, “responsible for identifying, recruiting and running covert agents in the global telecommunications industry.”
“This enables GCHQ to tackle some of its most challenging targets,” the report said. The efforts made by the NSA and GCHQ against encryption technologies may have negative consequences for all internet users, experts warn.”
Posit; why wouldn't the NSA, by designing SELINUX, introduce weaknesses and vulnerabilities into the code that they can exploit, seeing as this is their modus operandi?
More worrying when you take all of this into consideration, is that SELINUX is backed into the linux kernel.
Sorry for the long post but I hope this clarifies a misunderstanding people have about SELINUX and the NSA.
39 • mobile os (by hulondalo on 2025-04-01 23:02:21 GMT from Hong Kong)
i remember trying to run debian on windows mobile pda and phone long ago, inspired by montavista linux on motorola 680/680i (which i also owned) but since android came out i saw there's no need to tinker with mobile os anymore. android killed my passion for adventure. i'm perfectly willing to accept anything it throws at me - maybe because i'm older and wiser now lol
40 • GrapheneOS (by DaveB on 2025-04-02 00:43:19 GMT from Australia)
I installed it on a Pixel 6a yesterday - so opening this week's issue gave me a bit of a chuckle. However as this is the first time I have used it, I cannot comment on anything. One thing I found while installing apps was that I'd be searching for the next one, and see an install confirmation for the previous one appear briefly ... and then have to go back to the previous one to try again. Don't rush the app installs.
Be aware that I could not install it using Vivaldi - I suspect the firmware file-size may have been an issue). Chromium worked fine.
41 • GrapheneOS (by 3von on 2025-04-02 15:26:16 GMT from Canada)
Been using Graphene for a couple years now and I love that I can start minimal and open things up as needed. I feel that your conclusions are fair about this OS.
42 • @38 SeLinux, AppArmor (by Jan on 2025-04-02 16:05:24 GMT from The Netherlands)
Interesting post.
Is despite your explanation on SeLinux, for a simple user SeLinux still a security improvement?
Or is AppArmor preferable?
43 • TOR & SELinux (by Mhq on 2025-04-02 16:55:07 GMT from Italy)
"I thought everyone knew that TOR is a CIA honeypot. Apparently not, though. It's a bit like those who push SELinux for security while ignoring that it is designed by the NSA. Why would you trust that?"
I don't trust anything or anyone, I simply prefer open code to closed code.
44 • SELinux vs AppArmor (by Klaus on 2025-04-02 17:11:05 GMT from Italy)
@42
The fact that openSUSE Tumbleweed switches to SELinux by default... might already be a useful indication of which one to choose.
45 • @43 TOR and SELinux (by picamanic on 2025-04-02 18:21:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
@43 TOR and SELinux: I would distinguish between open source software like SELinux/AppArmor and services like TOR. The latter relies on the integritty of the available Exit Nodes, which can be subverted by hostile players with deep pockets. That is one of the flaws with privacy and security on the wider internet that has yet to be resolved.
46 • de Americanising (by rhtoras on 2025-04-02 18:37:15 GMT from Greece)
i agree with @5 and this is why i AM nosystemD user
degoogling is not enough...
these on my personal computer
because in a work environment you are using what they tell you to (unfortunatelly)
but that's a long story, discussed in detail on sysdfree.wordpress.com
47 • GrapheneOS (by Adam on 2025-04-02 20:57:36 GMT from Czechia)
For people who want to understand well what it offers, how it works and what is the level of advancement of the GrapheneOS system compared to others here is a great comparison:
https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
I am not its author, I only consider it a good job
48 • @42 (by FledermausMann on 2025-04-02 22:42:48 GMT from Australia)
>>is despite your explanation on SeLinux, for a simple user SeLinux still a security improvement? Or is AppArmor preferable?
"SELinux was originally a development project from the National Security Agency (NSA) (in 2000) and originally implemented as a loadable kernel module for Linux kernel v2.4. The NSA integrated SELinux into the Linux kernel using the Linux Security Modules (LSM) framework. Many other MAC frameworks, such as apparmor, tomoyo, and smack, utilize the LSM framework as well in order to hook into the Linux kernel."
SELinux is an implementation of flexible and fine-grained nondiscretionary access controls in the Linux kernel, originally implemented as its own particular kernel patch.
Why did SELINUX switch from a loadable module to become fully integrated into the kernel? Well, in March 2001, the NSA) gave a presentation about SELINUX at the 2.5 Linux Kernel Summit.
"In response to the NSA presentation, Linus Torvalds made a set of remarks that described a security framework he would be willing to consider for inclusion in the mainstream Linux kernel. He described a general framework that would provide a set of security hooks to control operations on kernel objects and a set of opaque security fields in kernel data structures for maintaining security attributes. This framework could then be used by loadable kernel modules to implement any desired model of security. Linus also suggested the possibility of migrating the Linux capabilities code into such a module."
Google, Yahoo!, Facebook and Microsoft are among the many companies willfully cooperating with the agency to provide “backdoor” access to their systems according to the PRISM leaks from Snowden. Why wouldn’t the NSA ask Linus to backdoor Linux? Well turns out the did sometime in 2013 or sometime prior.
Considering what the NSA is, and what they do and have done, does anyone really think that the NSA spent so much time developing SELINUX and their MAC control, to help, Linux users be protected from "hackers" and other threats?
Why did they spend so much resource on this project when they could have just switched their internal systems to OpenBSD? The did not need to develop SELINUX at all, and yet they did, and now it is integrated into the Linux kernel. And we are supposed to believe it is for our benefit.
Has SELINUX ever been code audited by a non-US based organization? I can't find any evidence of it.
You decide on the conclusion.
The only way out, is switch to BSD, or,switch to Gentoo where I have even more control over Kernel elements and not allow it in during install.
The only other real option is to
49 • Smartphone OS (by penguinx86 on 2025-04-03 01:33:07 GMT from United States)
I had a Firefox OS phone for a while. These phones were NEVER available, until they were discontinued and for sale as surplus on eBay. It wasn't a bad 'phone' but the smart capabilities were limited. The app store was discontinued by the time I could buy one. It came with an old Firefox browser that worked ok, but that was the only useful app on such a small screen.
I also remember Ubuntu Touch. I never saw any of these aveilable in stores. It was only for developers and was more like Ubuntu Don't Touch. The OS was available for download, but it would only run on a very limited number of phones. I never was able to try it out.
50 • Open Technology Fund (by FledermausMann on 2025-04-03 23:42:18 GMT from Australia)
For those lamenting funding cuts to the OTF, I think you should redirect your gaze toward the Linux Foundation, which appears to be the "real" open technology fund by proxy.
You would think that the Linux Foundation is concerned with Linux, but that is incorrect.
The linux Foundation recevied according to their 2023 financial report, a total of $$262,615,790 broken down as follows:
Membership & donations 45% ($118,213,748)
Project support 26% ($67,077,259)
Event sponsorships and registrations 19% ($49,517,576)
Training and certification 10% ($27,253,092)
Other 0.2% ($554,115)
Expenses for the Linux Foundation are shown below:
Project support 64% ($171,854,065)
Project infrastructure 9% ($22,584,890)
Training and Certification 7% ($18,570,211)
Corporate operations 6% ($17,123,359)
Event support 6% ($14,602,847)
Community tooling 5% ($13,529,484)
Linux kernel support 2% ($7,804,150)
International operations 1% ($2,960,256)
Notice that Linux Kernel Support received only 2% of all funding. Even Support, received more than the name sake of the Foundation, which it is supposed to help. 2%....$7,804,150, which is most likely Linus Torvalds paycheck tbh (edit; Torvalds receives an annual salary of $10 million from the Linux Foundation as of 2022 Money Inc article).
The Linux Foundation boasts; Serving over 1,133 open source project communities. Of which Linux Kernel makes up the smallest percentage possible. What are these open source projects and communities that the Linux Foundation finances? The categories are shown below:
Cloud, Containers, & Virtualization 25%
Networking & Edge 13%
AI, ML, Data & Analytics 12%
Web & Application Development 11%
Cross-Technology 8%
Privacy & Security 4%
IoT & Embedded 4%
Blockchain 4%
DevOps, CI/CD, & Site Reliability 3%
Open Source & Compliance
Best Practices 3%
System Administration 2%
Linux Kernel 2%
System Engineering 2%
Storage 2%
Open Hardware 1%
Safety-Critical Systems 1%
Visual Effects 1%
The Linux Foundation is the real Open Technology Fund, so don't worry so much about the OTF with their $40 million funding cuts, the Linux Foundation is much more important and serves a much broader open source community.
Posit; why is the Linux Foundation only allocating 2% of their budget to Linux? They spend more on AI and Blockchain than the Linux Kernel?
This is very strange to me and frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Perhaps they should rename themselves to the "AI/Blockchain and Everything Else Foundation with a sprinkle of Linux on the side".
51 • Ubuntu Touch (by Dave Postles on 2025-04-04 11:02:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
It was available on the ZTE ohone and on the BQ Aquaris tablet from new. I still have both. Firefox OS is fine, but the build of ZTE was poor (SIM and card slots fragile). I have upgraded the BQ tablet to UBPorts.It's perfectly fine. KaiOS is the continuation of FirefoxOS as a 'feature phone' not a smart phone.
52 • Correction (by Dave Postles on 2025-04-04 11:04:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
I meant Firefox OS on the ZTE.
53 • Search, Country extra possibilities (by Jan on 2025-04-04 16:14:05 GMT from The Netherlands)
Could you add to Search-Country of origin, Europe (West/East) + Asia + Australia + America (North/South) + Africa. And add the option NOT to any country or world part.
thanks in advance.
Number of Comments: 53
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