 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 1042, 23 October 2023 |
Welcome to this year's 43rd issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
A little over a week ago Canonical published Ubuntu 23.10 which was accompanied by ten community editions. One of the younger community editions in the family is Ubuntu Cinnamon which has drawn comparisons to Linux Mint for using the same base and the same desktop environment. This week we begin with a side-by-side look at Linux Mint's Debian Edition running the Cinnamon desktop along with Ubuntu Cinnamon. Then, in our News section, we talk about the Debian project resuming efforts to merge its root directories into /usr while Murena expands its /e/OS platform onto new Android devices. We also report on Canonical and Ubuntu Budgie publishing updated install media to replace malicious translations in the original 23.10 media. This week we also talk about extending the battery life of Linux laptops. How long does your laptop's battery last when running Linux? Let us know in this week's Opinion Poll. Plus we are pleased to share a summary of this week's releases and list the torrents we are seeding. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
This week's DistroWatch Weekly is presented by TUXEDO Computers.
Content:
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| Feature Story (By Jesse Smith) |
Ubuntu Cinnamon 23.10 and Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition'
In the middle of October, Canonical published Ubuntu 23.10 and its herd of community editions soon followed. Since Ubuntu (and its community flavours) are among the world's most widely used Linux distributions, particularly among newcomers to the community, I feel it is important to write about the Ubuntus and highlight what sets them apart.
Oddly enough, it feels as though Canonical and the range of Ubuntu community branches don't feel the same enthusiasm. Looking through the release announcements for version 23.10 of the Ubuntus, there was very little in terms of new features, interesting developments, or notes on fresh polish. Almost all of the community projects mentioned the new version of the Linux kernel they offered and a few minor version bumps to their respective desktop environments, and that was usually all that was discussed. Two of the ten community branches didn't even publish release announcements and at least one didn't bother to update their wallpaper to match the theme of the new release.
Less than a decade ago the Ubuntu community was boiling over with new developments, editions, and ideas. The Unity desktop (like it or loath it) tried to streamline desktop usage, Canonical was working to provide a user-centric cloud service, Ubuntu Touch was offering to take Linux to the mobile world, and Ubuntu Server was leading the charge into cloud computing. Meanwhile Snap was offering portable packages for servers, Flatpak was making its way into community desktop editions, Wayland was just over the horizon, and Ubuntu One was poised to tie it all together with data synchronization across the entire stack of devices.
These days Canonical doesn't seem to care much about the desktop. After scrapping Unity and moving back to GNOME, the company has largely left the desktop to be stagnant. Most desktops and community editions have ignored Wayland, Ubuntu Touch was turned over to the UBports community, and Ubuntu One was shut down. Even with the community editions being forced to adopt Snap and drop Flatpak support, Snap has failed to capture hearts and minds. Lubuntu's brief announcement even recommended users might want to consider skipping this release (at least Lubuntu bothered to publish a release announcement): "If you choose to use Lubuntu 23.10, we STRONGLY recommend upgrading to 24.04 LTS soon after it is released, but before Lubuntu 23.10 hits end of life. If this is not suitable for you, but you still enjoy new features on a regular basis, we would recommend staying on Lubuntu 22.04 LTS with Lubuntu's Backports enabled."
In short, the Ubuntu developer community seems to be entirely uninterested in developing or talking about version 23.10 which makes it difficult to write about the release. So I decided to do something new-to-me which was try Ubuntu Cinnamon. Ubuntu Cinnamon has only been around for around a year and a half and what drew my attention to it this October was the question about whether it even made sense for Ubuntu Cinnamon (UC) to exist.
The Cinnamon desktop is developed by the Linux Mint project, itself a member of the Debian/Ubuntu community. Mint has been around for around a decade and a half while UC is quite new. If Mint is basically Debian/Ubuntu with the Cinnamon desktop (which it develops) and a few add-on utilities, then what is the point in having an official Ubuntu Cinnamon community flavour which is the same base with Cinnamon packages bolted on top? It's a question I've heard asked a few times and I was curious about the reasoning behind Ubuntu Cinnamon too.
Meanwhile I'd been looking for a reason to try out Linux Mint's latest Debian Edition (LMDE 6) which also features the Cinnamon desktop on Debian's Stable base. Mint's release announcement for LMDE 6 was also quite light on details and new features, other than to say LMDE offered most of the same programs and features as Linux Mint's Ubuntu-based edition.
Going into this side-by-side trial I had little to go on, other than to assume UC 23.10 and LMDE 6 would offer the same desktop on a similar base. I was curious to see how they would be similar, how they would be different, and if there would be a clear reason to use one over the other. Is there a reason to have Ubuntu Cinnamon when Linux Mint, creator of the Cinnamon, desktop exists? Let's find out!
Installing
Let's start with Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition". The project's ISO file is 2.5GB in size. Booting from the media brings up the Cinnamon desktop and automatically launches a custom, graphical system installer. This installer asks us to select our location, confirm our time zone, and choose our keyboard layout. We're then asked to make up a username and password. Optionally, we can encrypt our home directory. The installer offers manual and guided partition management. The guided approach is fairly easy to navigate and the guided option provides us with the chance to enable LVM and disk encryption. The installer copied its files to my drive quickly and offered to reboot the machine or return to the Cinnamon desktop.
Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition" -- Changing Cinnamon's theme
(full image size: 609kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
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Ubuntu Cinnamon is provided through a 3.9GB ISO file. This media boots to a graphical environment where we are shown a window that asks if we'd like to Try or Install the distribution. The Try option hands us over to the Cinnamon desktop while the Install option launches the Ubiquity system installer.
Ubiquity has slightly different steps and in a different order, but the process is similar to Mint's installer. We're asked if we'd like to fetch updates during the install and if we'd like to install media codecs. Guided and friendly manual disk partitioning options are again provided. UC offers three guided options: ext4, LVM, and ZFS. We are asked to set our time zone and make up a user account. Ubiquity then copies its files to the local drive and offers to reboot the computer.
Early impressions of the desktop
When we boot Linux Mint we're shown a graphical login screen with a mostly black background. Signing into our account brings up the Cinnamon desktop with a welcome screen which greets us. The welcome window offers us quick access to documentation and commonly used features. These features include creating filesystem snapshots (with Timeshift), enabling the firewall, opening the software centre, and accessing the Cinnamon settings panel.
Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition" -- The welcome window
(full image size: 714kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
Cinnamon places its panel across the bottom of the display. The Cinnamon desktop is presented with a mostly dark theme (the desktop panel and menus use white text on a black background) and the wallpaper is mostly black. Mint's icons are bright, colourful, and distinctive. Application windows use a light theme by default. In the settings panel we can adjust the theme to be this blend of light applications and dark desktop, make everything dark, or make everything light.
Mint's screensaver kicks on after 15 minutes, which is a nice bit of breathing room compared to the 5 minutes a lot of distributions use as their default these days.
When new software updates are available, an icon in the system tray lets us know. This icon can be used to open Mint's update manager, which I'll talk about later in this review.
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Ubuntu Cinnamon also boots to a graphical login screen, this one with a brown theme. When we sign in we find icons on the desktop for opening the Nemo file manager. The background and icons use a strong, brown theme while the panel and application menu are dark. Unlike Mint, Ubuntu Cinnamon uses the dark-on-dark theme so application windows typically use a black background.
Ubuntu Cinnamon 23.10 -- Exploring the application menu
(full image size: 453kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
UC doesn't offer a welcome window. Instead, shortly after signing in, a window appeared and let me know software updates were available. I was asked if I'd like to run the update manager. UC uses Ubuntu's update manager which is a minimal graphical tool which will list and fetch available updates. It worked well for me.
A problem I constantly ran into with Ubuntu Cinnamon was the desktop session would regularly crash, usually in under two minutes. In fact, out of the around 15 sessions I signed into during my trial with UC, only two of them remained stable for more than five minutes. The rest would crash and return me to the login screen. This happened whether I was using the default Cinnamon session or the software rendering session. This happened in the same two test environments where Linux Mint remained stable and its desktop didn't crash once. One of the few times UC's session remained (mostly) stable, I saw a crash report which read, "The application xpps-sn-watcher has closed unexpectedly." I was then offered a chance to restart the service.
Hardware support
In terms of hardware support, LMDE and UC were basically identical in most ways. Both worked on my laptop and detected all of my hardware, wireless networking worked out of the box, media keys worked, and my touchpad detected taps as clicks. The Cinnamon desktop (on both distributions) used inverse scrolling when the touchpad was in use and this can be adjusted with a few clicks in the settings panel.
Desktop performance was about average on the laptop and a little below average in the VirtualBox instances. Cinnamon tends to lag a little bit in virtual machines, not a lot, but it's noticeable.
Memory usage was about the same across the two distributions. Mint used 955MB when signed into the desktop while Ubuntu Cinnamon used 980MB. Disk consumption was quite a bit different though. Mint used 7.5GB of disk space while UC used almost twice as much, 13GB. This appears to be mostly a result of which default applications are included.
Package management
Mint features a custom software centre. The software manager has a nice, modern interface which I find easy to navigate. The software centre is responsive and will show us recommended or featured items. We can also perform searches for items. When we click on an application's entry we are shown a full page description and a screenshot. We can add an application with a click and, once it is installed, launch the application from within the software centre.
Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition" -- The software centre
(full image size: 140kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
One aspect of Mint's software centre I like is it seamlessly blends together traditional Deb packages and Flatpak packages which are pulled in from the Flathub repository. To facilitate this blending, next to the button to install new software there is a drop-down menu which lets us switch between fetching the Flatpak or the Deb version of an application. The Deb format seems to be the default when it is available.
Mint has a separate, custom update manager. This update manager keeps things fairly simple on the surface. It has a straight forward layout and we can fetch and install new updates with a few clicks. If we dig into the update manager further though we can find all sorts of settings for adjusting when we check for new packages, automatic update options, and a menu entry which launches the Timeshift snapshot manager. Timeshift helps us rollback changes to the system if an update causes any problems.
Finally, Mint includes the Synaptic package manager for low level manipulation of packages. This can be handy if we want to find and install specific libraries or command line tools.
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Ubuntu Cinnamon appears to use the Ubuntu Software Centre to manage applications. (I say appears because the desktop didn't remain stable long enough for me to launch and test the software centre.) I could confirm UC provides access both to Ubuntu's traditional Deb repositories and to the Snap repository. Some Snap packages are installed on the system by default and the Firefox web browser is provided through a Snap.
Following the directive from Canonical, UC does not provide access to Flatpak packages by default, but this can be enabled by the user by installing the Flatpak framework. Like its cousin, UC ships with the Synaptic package manager.
Included software
The Mint distribution ships with a fairly standard collection of open source applications, along with a few extras. These items include Firefox, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, Transmission, and HexChat. Media codecs are provided along with the Rhythmbox and Celluloid applications. The Hypnotix streaming application is included too.
Mint ships with the Nemo file manager, a backup utility, virtual keyboard, and the Warpinator file sharing application. Behind the scenes we find Java is installed along with the GNU Compiler Collection, GNU utilities, and manual pages. Mint ships with the systemd init software and version 6.1 of the Linux kernel.
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Ubuntu Cinnamon has a mostly similar collection of software. It also ships with Firefox (as a Snap), LibreOffice, Nemo, and Thunderbird. Ubuntu Cinnamon also includes the Brasero disc burning utility, the GNU Image Manipulation Program, Rhythmbox, Transmission, and Totem. The distribution includes Pidgin, the GNU utilities, and systemd. In the background Ubuntu Cinnamon runs Linux 6.5.
As you can see, there are a few differences and a newer kernel in Ubuntu Cinnamon, but most of the applications and out of the box capabilities are the same across both distributions.
Special features and observations
Mint has a few useful tools, such as Timeshift and Warpinator which make it easier to manage the system, restore filesystem snapshots, and transfer files. What I particularly like is the system fits together nicely, like a series of gears in a watch. The welcome window provides easy access to key functions, the update manager connects to Timeshift, the software centre seamlessly combines Deb and Flatpak options into one interface. In short, all the components Mint offers fit together nicely, making the distribution greater than the sum of its parts.
Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition" -- Customizing update settings
(full image size: 533kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
* * * * *
Ubuntu Cinnamon does not appear to have any equivalent integration or connected tools. The Cinnamon desktop certainly works well and is flexible, I like Cinnamon's settings panel as it makes adjusting the desktop quite easy. However, UC doesn't have any welcome window, snapshot manager (even though ZFS is a guided partitioning option), nothing that ties the pieces together. It very much feels like Ubuntu's core base with the Cinnamon desktop placed as a separate layer on top of it.
Conclusions
It isn't often I get to test drive two such similar distributions (in this case both recently released members of the Debian/Ubuntu family) running the same desktop (Cinnamon) with similar goals. The two distributions, on paper at least, should be nearly identical, apart from the branding and a few default applications.
The experiences I encountered though were quite a bit different. The installers were mostly the same, apart from the order in which they performed actions, and a lot of the default applications were the same. Obviously, the desktop features were nearly identical (some settings, like the theme adjustments, were laid out a bit differently).
Apart from the colour scheme and a few applications, the main differences for me boiled down to three things:
- Stability was obviously the big factor. Running in the same test environments, Mint was rock solid while Ubuntu Cinnamon's desktop crashed regularly, usually within two minutes of logging in. This made the latter virtually unusable most of the time.
- Package management was another concrete example. Mint uses faster, more polished tools. Its software centre is one of the faster, more easy to navigate software centres I've encountered in the Linux ecosystem and it makes switching between Flatpak and Deb packages effortless. The update manager is simple, but flexible, with a lot of convenient options and snapshot integration behind the scenes. In contrast, Ubuntu Cinnamon uses the capable Ubuntu Software Centre, a more streamlined and less capable update manager, and uses Snap packages rather than Flatpak.
- As I mentioned above, Mint includes a number of interconnected pieces which work well together. We're greeted by a welcome window and the update manager talks to the snapshot utility. The distribution feels like it was assembled into a whole product, following a vision, rather than a collection of parts which happen to be in the same room. I cannot say the same for Ubuntu Cinnamon which greeted me with crash reports and update notices, and didn't appear to tie any of its components together. It feels like a desktop layered on top of a separate operating system (which I suppose it is) rather than the result of a clear vision.
It's not often I question why a distribution should exist. I'm all in favour of hobby projects, building something for the educational aspect, and producing similar projects with different philosophies. In this specific case though, I do find myself wondering what the motivation is for creating and maintaining Ubuntu Cinnamon as an official flavour of Ubuntu. Linux Mint is basically Ubuntu (or Debian, depending on the edition) with the Cinnamon desktop, some custom utilities, and some added polish. Mint has been a user friendly, capable member of the Debian/Ubuntu family for over a decade and a go-to distribution for people who want a beginner friendly experience.
Ubuntu Cinnamon is also Ubuntu with the Cinnamon desktop on top of it (making the distribution's name blissfully accurate), but it doesn't have any of Mint's custom utilities or polish. It's the same base, the same desktop, and mostly the same packages with a few pieces missing.
Linux Mint 6 "Debian Edition" is another solid release from the Mint project with a lot of polish and friendly touches put into it. Ubuntu Cinnamon 23.10 offers the usual, friendly Ubuntu base, but (apart from looking nice) doesn't manage to offer a particularly good experience with the Cinnamon desktop.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was an HP DY2048CA laptop with the following
specifications:
- Processor: 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1135G7 @ 2.40GHz
- Display: Intel integrated video
- Storage: Western Digital 512GB solid state drive
- Memory: 8GB of RAM
- Wireless network device: Intel Wi-Fi 6 AX201 + BT Wireless network card
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Visitor supplied rating
Ubuntu Cinnamon has a visitor supplied average rating of: 7.7/10 from 13 review(s).
Have you used Ubuntu Cinnamon? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Debian resumes /usr merge, Murena expands /e/OS platform, Canonical publishes updated install media
The Debian project had originally looked to complete the merger of its root and /usr directories in time for the launch of Debian 12. This would have seen the migration of programs from directories like /bin and /sbin to their equivalents under /usr (/usr/bin and /usr/sbin). However, a pause was placed on the migration due to some concerns around getting the work done and tested in time for Debian 12. The project is now planning to complete the merge for Debian 13. "The transition driver, which at the time of writing is Helmut Grohne, is using a phased approach, in which the moratorium is rolled back for only certain classes of packages, and changes, at a time. In addition, restructuring uploads should be targeted at experimental, and left for three days. This is in order that automated testing by dumat can occur." Details on the merge can be found on Debian's UserMerge wiki page.
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Murena has announced an update to its /e/OS software platform which will upgrade its Android base as well make it possible for the organization to provide longer support for aging Android phones. "Exciting news! Our team has completed a significant migration, bringing /e/OS to AOSP 13 (T) for a select set of community devices. We are thrilled to extend support for these phones, making /e/OS a great solution to keep older devices alive. And we are not stopping here. We're currently hard at work to offer OTA updates for our official devices, ensuring you stay effortlessly up-to-date with the latest features and improvements." The Murena project currently supports 245 devices.
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Last week we reported on the install media for Ubuntu and Ubuntu Budgie 23.10 being revoked due to malicious translations. New install media has been uploaded with proper translations and the new ISO files bear the version number 23.10.1.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Extending battery life on Linux
All-charged-up asks: While Linux battery life has drastically improved in the last few years, I'm still struggling with having enough battery to last a whole working day. With developments in Wayland, I'm uncertain of which desktop environment is the most power efficient, all else being equal. The old commonly heard advice was environments that use less RAM and CPU (e.g. Xfce, LXQt, and, stepping outside of desktop environments, several window managers). I've recently seen this advice being disregarded as irrelevant with modern hardware. It is claimed Wayland could be more power efficient. How does current GNOME on Wayland compare to Xfce on X11, for instance? Of course, mileage may vary depending on hardware and usage. Is there a current power efficient desktop environment champion?
I've tried all the tricks in the past with TLP / PowerTOP / power-profiles-daemon, running fewer services, disabling Bluetooth, dimming screen brightness etc. However, what are some of the best methods to accurately measure power consumption?
DistroWatch answers: It sounds like you are already doing just about everything you can to extend battery life. You're dimming the screen, disabling services you don't need (like Bluetooth), running power profile tools to throttle the CPU. These are the big ticket items.
You might also want to experiment with various video drivers. You might find, especially with an AMD or NVIDIA card which can ramp up its performance quite a bit, that switching between the base level drivers or a proprietary driver can make a difference in energy consumption.
Regarding the classic advice on using less feature-rich desktop environments, such as Xfce and LXQt in place of GNOME or KDE Plasma, that advice still holds up. Lighter desktops tend to run fewer services and less CPU-intensive tasks, easing the strain on your battery. This is especially true when dealing with 3-D desktops such as GNOME and Cinnamon. These 3-D desktops require more processing power - either in the video card or, if the proper driver isn't available, through the CPU. When the CPU bears the load it slows down the machine and plays havoc with the battery's life.
Regarding the question of Wayland versus X11, it's not likely to make any noticeable difference. X11 and Wayland are just protocols for achieving the same thing (drawing on your screen). Depending on which Wayland or X11 implementation you are using and which hardware drivers your computer is running, you might get slightly better or worse performance, but the protocol being used itself is not likely to make any significant impact. The bigger factors will be how bright the screen is, how often new things are drawn, and how much work the desktop environment is doing rather than how the pixels are being drawn on the screen.
When it comes to measuring power consumption, I suggest one of two approaches. The first is not particularly precise, but it is practical. Simply set up your machine with a specific configuration, and then use it until the battery runs low. Measure how long you were using it. Then change your configuration and, the next day, again time how long it takes for your battery to run low. This isn't fine-tuned work, but it's practical because it gives you first-hand experience for what works for your workflow and your equipment.
Benchmarks (such as comparing Xfce on X11 vs GNOME on Wayland) can give people ideas of where to start making changes, but when it comes to performance and power consumption, benchmarks only give you a rough idea of what works (or doesn't work) for other people in short-term tests. Running a configuration all day under a normal workflow on your own equipment will tell you exactly what does work for you.
A more fine-tuned approach is to run a tool like PowerTOP. This command line tool will show you all sorts of statistics about which processes and hardware components are using power and how much. You can see which processes are causing the most power to be consumed as well as which hardware components are drawing the most electricity. You can also see a total number of watts consumed at any given second.
Using PowerTOP, which is described in this Linux Config article, takes out the guesswork from tuning power consumption because you can see, in real-time, which service, desktop, or hardware component is draining your battery the most.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
MX Linux 23.1
The MX Linux development team has announced the release of MX Linux 23.1, an updated build of the project's Debian-based distribution with the SysV init system and a choice of Xfce, KDE Plasma and Fluxbox desktops: "We are pleased to offer MX Linux 23.1 for your use. MX 23.1 is the first refresh of our MX 23 release, consisting of bug fixes, kernel and application updates since our original release of MX 23. If you are already running MX 23, there is no need to reinstall. Packages are all available through the regular update channel. Highlights include: Debian 12.2 'Bookworm' base; new and updated applications. Some highlights include: installer updates addressing swap file, hibernation and OEM install improvements; the KDE release features an updated sddm init script that eliminates the 'restart' of sddm on SySVInit boot; the AHS Xfce release features the 6.5 kernel, updated firmware and MESA libraries; Fluxbox has a new key binding reference script displaying default hotkeys." Here is the complete release announcement.
OpenBSD 7.4
The OpenBSD team have announced the release of OpenBSD 7.4, the latest version of the project's security-focused operating system. The new version includes a lot of virtual machine improvements, better SMP performance, wireless networking updates and an interesting random timing feature for the cron daemon. "In cron(8) and crontab(5), add support for random offsets when using ranges with a step value in cron. This extends the random range syntax to support step values. Instead of choosing a random number between the high and low values, the field is treated as a range with a random offset less than the step value. This can be used to avoid thundering herd problems where multiple machines contact a server all at the same time via cron jobs. Extend and improve the ibuf API in libutil and add functions for more specific data types, for modifying data at specific offsets, for getting and setting the file descriptor stored on the ibuf and for efficient wrapping of ibufs into imsgs. The ibuf API is mostly used in network daemons. In wsconsctl(8), add button mappings for two- and three-finger clicks on clickpads. In pax(1) and tar(1), do not open files that will be skipped, speeding up archive creation when many files are skipped." Additional details can be found in the release announcement.
Kubuntu 23.10
Kubuntu is the last of the Ubuntu family of Linux distribution that announced the release of version 23.10. The product ships with KDE Plasma 5.27, KDE Frameworks 5.110 and KDE Gear 23.08: "The Kubuntu team is happy to announce that Kubuntu 23.10 has been released, featuring the beautiful KDE Plasma 5.27, simple by default, powerful when needed. Code-named 'Mantic Minotaur', Kubuntu 23.10 continues our tradition of giving you friendly computing by integrating the latest and greatest open-source technologies into a high-quality, easy-to-use Linux distribution. Under the hood, there have been updates to many core packages, including a new 6.5-based kernel, KDE Frameworks 5.110, KDE Plasma 5.27 and KDE Gear 23.08. Kubuntu has seen many updates for other applications, both in our default install and installable from the Ubuntu archive. Haruna, Krita, Kdevelop, Yakuake and many many more applications are updated. Applications for core day-to-day usage are included and updated, such as Firefox and LibreOffice." See the brief release announcement and the more detailed release notes for further information.
Br OS 23.10
Br OS is a Brazilian Linux distribution based on Kubuntu. The distribution has re-introduced a minimal install option for Br OS 23.10 and adjusted the themes settings screen. "One change that began to be introduced in a past point-release and has now been completed is the change of themes in the quick settings screen, which is now 100% functional with the right to view and everything, with this, unfortunately the Breeze themes were disabled, when clicking on them nothing will happen, however, the Breeze theme can still be used by clicking on the Kubuntu Theme, and can be changed between light and dark in advanced settings. There has been an improvement in the stability of the integration with ChatGPT, we are working on the possibility of integrating other artificial intelligences, preferably free, so that the user can choose which one to use, this update should come out in the near future and is another step towards the implementation of Tricia (our AI)." Additional details can be found in the project's release announcement.
Br OS 23.10 -- Running the KDE Plasma desktop
(full image size: 2.7MB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,918
- Total data uploaded: 43.7TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Laptop battery life
This week we talked about extending the battery life of a Linux laptop and some of the tricks which came make a single session last longer. We'd like to hear how long your Linux laptop can run on a single charge. Let us know about your favourite tricks for making your battery last longer in the comments.
You can see the results of our previous poll on preferred Ubuntu community flavours in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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How long does your Linux laptop battery last?
| Under 1 hour: | 70 (5%) |
| 1-3 hours: | 375 (27%) |
| 3-5 hours: | 383 (28%) |
| 5-7 hours: | 166 (12%) |
| 7-9 hours: | 74 (5%) |
| More than 9 hours: | 59 (4%) |
| I have no Linux laptop: | 244 (18%) |
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| Website News |
DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 30 October 2023. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Weekly Archive and Article Search pages. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Linux battery (by Brad on 2023-10-23 00:44:26 GMT from United States)
There doesn't seem to be an option such as, "My laptop is always plugged in".
That being said, I use the BIOS utility for my laptop that (allegedly) extends battery *life* when almost continuously plugged into the "mains".
I could try to experiment, but the few times that my laptop was unplugged, I'd guess that I had somewhere between 3-5 hours of life, under heavy usage (watching videos, multiple browser tabs open, multiple apps on different workspaces, etc. Almost always accidental - "Gee, I thought it was plugged in - why is it warning me to plug in???"
: - )
2 • LMDE vs. Ubuntu Cinnamon (by brad on 2023-10-23 00:47:48 GMT from United States)
Thanks so much for the "side-by-side" - although I don't use either on a regular basis, the review confirmed my bias of Mint vs. Ubuntu.
I carry a USB stick with the latest LMDE on my keychain, in case I get the opportunity to demonstrate "Linux done right" to a curious Windows user.
3 • LTS version of Ubuntu, the stable & reliable foundation. (by Greg Zeng on 2023-10-23 01:23:44 GMT from Australia)
There might be a misunderstanding about the six monthly releases of Ubuntu, versus the LTS version of Ubuntu. Canonical has only one LTS version, released in every second April. The Mint versions are based on Ubuntu, the last LTS Ubuntu, or Debian. The three Ubuntu versions between the one LTS version are known to be 'experimental', so have a lower life maintenance guarantee than the LTS versions.
These experimental versions are often called Alpha or Beta releases in software releases. As this week's review shows on Ubuntu 23.10, this beta release is so experimental that it is not recommended for serious business applications. Mint and the other Ubuntu-based distributions are wary and distrusting Canonical's upstream errors. The 52 downstream derivations (https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&origin=All&basedon=Ubuntu¬basedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=All&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=All&status=Active#simple) try to avoid the Canonical conservatism and the Canonical experiments of their non-LTS versions.
So Mint and the others use Flatpak instead of the Canonical-originated SNAP. If they use the KDE interface, they prefer GT, rather than the KDE-based replacements. Some Debian & some Ubuntu-based derivations also make it difficult to use Synaptic Package Manager. Once Synaptic is available, it is easy to add Flatpak and sometimes Appimage to any Debian-based system.
4 • Linux battery (by Guido on 2023-10-23 01:38:07 GMT from Philippines)
One option would be to buy one or two spare batteries and take them with you. Then simply replace the old battery with the charged one after 5 hours. This would have worked with my old laptop. Otherwise, reduce the brightness of the screen as much as possible. You can also switch it off completely during a presentation.
5 • cinnamon sticks (by Nigel on 2023-10-23 01:55:17 GMT from New Zealand)
Thank you for this week's very helpful review. It certainly seems Mint Team's investment in making LMDE is going to become the long term solution. As you wrote Jesse, Ubuntu are neglecting the desktop. And for us 'regular' Linux users, the desktop is everything.
I have run Mint 21.1 and LMDE and find LMDE better. I also use Cinnamon on other distros and the mileage varies, a lot.
There is something broader that could be interesting to hear the opinions of others on. Cinnamon and MATE came from frustration with Gnome 2 to 3. Not only Gnome devs (who fairly or unfairly seem to draw a lot of flak), but in general. Devs suddenlt mess up features or change things. It breaks one's workflow and rhythm.
The solutions I read say "go find another package", but often the package was chosen as it used to be the only one filling the need. One cannot also roll back a version and block updates - eventually you are 12 versions behind with dozens of features unavailable and possible software vulnerabilities exposing your system.
So what can one do? Asking as a user, not as one who has endless coding skills and resources to say.. create a fork. That could also get "busy" as more such issues accumulate over time. A cursor set updates and moves the focus pixel, a UI changes and breaks a feature you totally rely on daily, etc, etc.
6 • LMDE and 32-bit support (by Mike Cebula on 2023-10-23 02:48:39 GMT from United States)
Something not mentioned in the review is that LMDE supports i686 (32-bit) cpus and that enables those older computers to use current programs and still run Linux. I still maintain one Windows 98 machine that supports a nice IBM color printer that is not supported under any other OS. Also contains the SCSI card necessary to drive a large format HP scanner that is more than adequate for my purposes. It runs LMDE otherwise until I need those functions.
7 • LMDE and 32-bit support (by Titus Groan on 2023-10-23 04:29:14 GMT from New Zealand)
@ #6
Wouldnt recommend it. LMDE6 32 is an afterthought / also ran.
Copying a file or group of files that exceed 380MB reports some interesting numbers;
typically in the EB range, not GB / TB / PB ranges.
Copy time is reported to be in the hundreds of thousands of hours - decades of time,
or 0.00 time remaining!
Copy speed is reported as quite good: from 500GB/s into the TB/s - not to bad for old spinning discs.
see https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=402703 for an image
Demonstrable in both Oracle VirtualBox and real metal installs.
I guess a game could be played to find the most outrageous reported values.
The above indicates, that a very common use-case that a desktop user would employ, has managed to get past the quality control employed by the Cinnamon developers. What else has been missed?
It has been this way since the release of LMDE5. Still not fixed.
This is a Cinnamon issue, as it is also found in Debian 32 Cinnamon DE, and non-Debian based 32bit distributions that have the Cinnamon Desktop
8 • ridiculous comments about Canonical (by Simon on 2023-10-23 05:28:27 GMT from Germany)
I'm not a Ubuntu fanboy but the comments from this review are ridiculously wrong.
"These days Canonical doesn't seem to care much about the desktop". I can name tons of example why this isn't true.
Starting from significant upstream contributions to GNOME, to flutter-based installer, frame buffering, brand new app store, beautiful GNOME theming for consistency, consistent improvements of Snaps (yes, even if people don't like them, they're always improving), tiling integration etc etc etc.
I'd love to hear in what way other distros care more about their official desktop (GNOME) than Canonical.
Sometimes its helpful to look at things objectively and on a facts basis, not regurgitating the internet wisdom of a vocal minority.
9 • Ubuntu 23.10 remarks (by Martins on 2023-10-23 07:13:12 GMT from Portugal)
"Looking through the release announcements for version 23.10 of the Ubuntus, there was very little in terms of new features, interesting developments, or notes on fresh polish."
What about the new Flutter based applications like the installer or the software package manager? What about the stability and reliability improvements over the previous 23.04 release? What about the new Gnome 45 version?
Are thee very little new features as you put it? i am more a Debian fan but I dislike unfair reviews like yours.
10 • Ubuntu (by quoted on 2023-10-23 07:58:47 GMT from Australia)
Couldn't agree more with @8 and @9, Ubuntu is all I need in an operating system and I've had less trouble with it than any other one I've tried (all the major families).
I've found 23.10 no exception - and as @8 said Ubuntu's enhancements make Gnome work better for me than any other distro I've tried.
I even like Snaps but I guess this is more a site for people with more knowledge of computers than me, so there you go. Even though it's not fashionable to not be part of the vocal internet people, I'm not worried - I'll just get back to using my largely trouble free system and thank Canonical for providing it for free.
11 • I'm with No.1 (by Someguy on 2023-10-23 08:45:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have several laptops and "desktops" in regular use, usually all connected/connectable to the household power supply - so normally no battery issue. [Of course, most laptops so connected work without a battery in place!] Laptops are useful away from home and assisting with friends issues, but again, most remote sites have power sockets! I no longer use PCs or mobiles in remote locations. For those who have such a requirement, the same applies as advice given in your battery electric car manual, viz. 'try to keep your battery between ~30% & 80% of full charge'. At home the 'desktop' configuration always wins out in terms of reliability, longevity, cost, etc. If you need the brick in different places in the home fit wheels, and maybe a rudimentary clamp on top for monitor, keyboard and mouse pad. Many desktops can be deployed around the home provided you don't share with a difficult partner - they can be acquired gratis almost everywhere these days and rarely require much skill or cost to repair. Stick with laptops if you prefer expensive repairs to screens, lids, keyboards, blocked vents, (burnt legs?!!) although, commercially the company/client will always meet your overheads!
12 • Ubuntu Cinnamon VS LMDE/Linux Mint Cinnamon (by Ubuntu Cinnamon on 2023-10-23 09:11:31 GMT from India)
The major difference between Ubuntu Cinnamon, LMDE and Linux Mint Cinnamon is the base distributions.
Ubuntu Cinnamon follows the regular release cycle of Ubuntu, and it is for people who want to get latest enhancements in every Ubuntu release (let it to be LTS or non-LTS one). Yes, I agree it should fix the stability issues and make the look and feel more 'comfortable'. Linux Mint is having a professionally designed theme.
Linux Mint regular editions are based on Ubuntu LTS releases. It offers critical package updates its own, including updated Linux Kernel and web browsers. The point releases are based on point releases of Ubuntu LTS.
LMDE - as the name indicates is based on Debian.
Although all have same core, they are different wrt to the package versions available, packaging strategy and release policy.
13 • Running laptops on batteries and replacing laptop batteries (by LinuxSlantFan on 2023-10-23 09:30:46 GMT from United States)
I, too, would have liked to have a “I always have my Linux notebook plugged in to AC power” choice in the Laptop Battery poll.
My primary computer is a Linux desktop with an AMD Ryzen APU. I only use a Linux notebook when I'm traveling. When I do use a notebook at home, it's plugged into an AC outlet and it doesn't matter if the battery works or not.
Only my newest Lenovo Thinkpad notebook/laptop PC has a battery capable of taking a full charge.
I've used Thinkpad notebooks from the days when IBM made them and I've continued to use them now that they are made by Lenovo. Linux has usually run well on Thinkpads of all vintages. However, my next notebook will be one of the new Framework notebooks.
The other notebooks (mostly Thinkpads) that I own run the latest versions of openSUSE and other Linux distros just fine but the cost of replacing their ancient battery packs even with generic replacements is a significant percentage of the cost of the used value of the computers themselves.
When I travel with a Linux notebook, I generally don't use it while I'm on the road or flying but only when I reach my destination or have stopped for the night, where AC power is readily available. So I really don't need the battery most of the time when traveling.
Don't even get me started on the trend started by Apple and aped by many Windows notebook manufacturers of making it harder to remove, swap, or replace a battery. In Apple notebooks the batteries are either glued in and require acetone to loosen the glue or the batteries are soldered to the circuit board. When the battery dies, according to Apple it costs $198 to replace the battery on a 2023 MacBook Air which is 20% of the cost of a new computer.
My next notebook will definitely be one of the new Framework self-repairable notebooks with AMD cpus which make it very easy and relatively inexpensive for the end user to replace the battery, screen, keyboard or any other component part as well as being able to upgrade major components. The cost of a new battery for the Framework notebooks is $49 to $69 depending upon the capacity and you can replace it yourself (the screwdriver that you need to do the replacement is included with the computer). By the way, Framework supports the use of Linux on their computers and you don't have to pay for a copy of Windows if you don't plan to use Windows.
14 • Unsatisfied with GRUB2 and recent multiboots attempts. HOW CAN WE PROGRESS There (by Jeffersonian on 2023-10-23 10:55:34 GMT from Poland)
1) GRUB1 was easy to use and manually modify, it is almost impossible with GRUB2
2) GRUB2 does ONLY one thing well : Install a Linux (any distro using it) along Windows (7-11).
3) Installing more than one Linux (namely Adding Manjaro to a Fedora) with GRUB2 (all BTRFS on EFI-GPT, keeping /home swap partitions, reformat the / on separate ones) turned out to be almost mission impossible ! Many attempts, just as many failures !
4) The Fedora Anaconda and Manjaro Calmares installers work, but not there yet for multi-:Linux-boot install : it is too complicated, and results in a bricked system, most of the time.
5) It is as bad, as I regret the good (not so great!) time of LILO, but it worked then, and so did GRUB1
Comments :
--------------
Q1: Is the problem due to GPT partitions, or lack of standard among distros ?
Q2: Would a common installer (Like Calamar) to all distros, at least GUI front-End help ?
I don't know, but installing yet another Linux on a free partition, and adding to a common /home partition does not seem so difficult: it should be a breeze... and it is not...yet.
Previous Experience: I worked on UEFI low level, for a large S/W company, and frankly, if the ideas are good, the implementation is a horrible mess: trying to move the low level to a higher level, is what makes it so unecessarily complicated : the PYTHON-JAVA Kligons have striken again !
Linux is clean and simple because the kernel was kept mostly clean, with only C (and now Rust), and only necessary system calls.
Plea : Make Linux multiboot great again. (Sorry couldn't resist :-)
Thanks for the attention, Ideally Suggestions.
Jeffersonian
15 • Linux laptop battery (by Otto on 2023-10-23 10:57:27 GMT from Czechia)
I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T440 that I bought from my employer when the final warranty expired. (Actually, we had to use our machines almost a year after the warranty expired, but that's just corporate wisdom for you. :D) It runs not only Linux-based OSes, but OpenBSD as well. It's weak point is the battery, which I think of as a high-capacity UPS. So yea, whenever I use it, I plug it in.
16 • Battery life (by DachshundMan on 2023-10-23 10:58:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
I inherited a Lenovo V130 from my partner it has an i5-7200U processor so it is fairly old. The battery was never very long lasting, even when new, but now it only has 65% of the original capacity so the life is in the 1-3 hours range. In general I do not see this as a problem as I mainly use it in my home office so I can plug in when required but I do try to keep the charge in the 30-80% as suggested by @11.
@4 it is a nice idea to have 2 batteries but I would have to disassemble the machine to switch them so not really practical. On work laptops you can generally just slide the battery out and slide a new one in so then your suggestion is possible. I could do that on my company laptop when I was still working.
17 • Ubuntu 23.10 and @14 Grub and GPT (by Mr. Moto on 2023-10-23 11:53:22 GMT from Japan)
23.10- I had Ubuntu 23.04 running since it was in devel. Never a problem. (Yes, I use and enjoy Gnome. No accounting for taste, I guess) Decided to upgrade to 23.10. All went well until reboot. I multiboot, so when grub came up it gave me all choices expect one: no Ubuntu. Tried grub repair and reinstall. Tried changing boot priority on BIOS/UEFI. No luck. Gave up and reinstalled Ubuntu. Booted fine, but then it didn't like grub-customizer. It didn't like Virtualbox. It kept changing my desktop config. Tired of the shenanigans and removed Ubuntu. I'll wait until 24.04 and try again. For now KDE neon boots as the primary distro.
@14, "Unsatisfied with GRUB2" Can't see what your problem is exactly. I've been multibooting on UEFI for quite a few years. Right now I have 2 distros plus Windows, and an empty partition which housed Ubuntu and will get something installed one of these days. Never a problem except Manjaro. Manjaro refused to run unless it's own GRUB was primary, otherwise it got panicky and threw tantrums. EndeavourOS on the other hand, worked like a charm and played well with others. With Fedora I have no experience. Aside from the Windows partitions, my SSD had three partitions for root (/) of whatever distro I fancy at the time. One shared home partition, and of course a UEFI FAT32 partition (100 MB. Some distros ask for 300 MB, but so far I've ignored that with no consequences.) To make modifications I use grub-customizer. I find that easier than editing etc/defaul/grub or grub.cfg, or whatever else. Manjaro, again, may not play well with grub-customizer.
18 • grub2 (by Klaus Schilling on 2023-10-23 11:57:07 GMT from Germany)
Grub2 also multiboots linux and netbsd well, not only linux and windows.
Calamaris is only suited for windows lovers and has no place on a self-respecting linux installation.
19 • Ubuntu (by RetiredIT on 2023-10-23 12:18:43 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu's last stellar release was 10.10 Maverick. With the notorious Ubuntu 11 Unity their downslide began and has continued to this present day. Their use of Snaps is a complete disaster! They truly do NOT care about the desktop, considering the 10+ buggy Ubuntu flavors they currently offer.
20 • Poll: (by dragonmouth on 2023-10-23 12:33:45 GMT from United States)
When a laptop is plugged in 24/7, it is no longer a "laptop", no matter how it looks. It has become a "desktop". Therefore, no need for a "always plugged in" option.
21 • @20 • Poll: (by Geo. on 2023-10-23 12:39:49 GMT from Canada)
dragonmouth said:"When a laptop is plugged in 24/7, it is no longer a "laptop", no matter how it looks. It has become a "desktop". Therefore, no need for a "always plugged in" option."
If it's on your lap when It's plugged in, is it still a desktop?
22 • Unpopular Opinion: All-in-One Ubuntu (by Justin Ridgers on 2023-10-23 13:32:12 GMT from United States)
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but why hasn't Ubuntu just added an additional screen to the install process and ask what nearly vanilla desktop environment the user wants to install? The Ubunti Live DVD can use use Gnome and it will be installed by default unless the user selected a different environment during installation. It's as though Ubuntu creates all this choice, but masters none of them individually.
23 • Laptop Battery Life (by Otis on 2023-10-23 13:44:21 GMT from United States)
I'm one of those users who seldom unplugs my laptops from their power source. When I do unplug one I'm using it is not for very long, just to move it to another room for a while or take it to a coffee shop for less than an hour. A few times here and there I've taken one of them to another office or house to help somebody with some work, and have found absolutely no degradation in expected battery life, somewhere around 7 or 8 hours. This has held true for my Linux, Mac, and Windows machines.
And yes they are all laptops no matter how I use them or where they are being used; not desktop computers.
24 • Lap... top (by Friar Tux on 2023-10-23 13:53:35 GMT from Canada)
@20 (dragonmouth) I have to agree with @21 (Geo) on this one. For me, it's still a LAPtop. Mine is permanently plugged in, BUT, when I sit in my easy chair with my feet up on the footstool, my laptop is on my lap. It's my lap-pal. (See what I did there?) Anyway, as I said, it's permanently plugged in. What it DOES do, for me, is that when the power goes out - and it automatically switches to battery - it gives my a bit of time to finish what I was doing, save my work, and shut down, all in a leisurely manner. (With the desktop, we had, years ago, when the power went out, anything you didn't physically save, was gone, lost, kaput!! This is why The Wife and I ONLY use laptops, now.)
Also, thanx Jesse, for the comparison of Ubuntu/Cinnamon vs LMDE/Cinnamon. I have run Linux Mint/Cinnamon, exclusively, for the past eight years, due to how solid and trouble free it is for me. (I tried all the Ubuntu flavours but they all gave me grief.) Lately, I've been experiencing some wonder-lust, and thinking I might try switching to LMDE. I may throw it on a spare laptop and play with for a while - just to see, so thanx, again, for the nudge.
25 • Ubuntu flavours (by Jesse on 2023-10-23 14:21:21 GMT from Canada)
@22: "I know this is an unpopular opinion, but why hasn't Ubuntu just added an additional screen to the install process and ask what nearly vanilla desktop environment the user wants to install?"
Ubuntu is the distribution, Canonical is the company that makes Ubuntu. I mention this because Canonical doesn't support any desktop environments besides GNOME. They have no desire or incentive to add additional desktop options to the installer because they only support GNOME.
That is why the community editions exist, to offer unsupported alternatives which otherwise wouldn't exist.
26 • Battery Life (by MikeG on 2023-10-23 15:13:56 GMT from United States)
I am currently running Garuda KDE on a Acer C740 Chromebook (4gb/128SSD/Celeron/Coreboot BIOS), and I can use the device (in a screen-on state) for 12 hours of basic / intermittent web surfing / email / document editing, before charging. I can watch videos / movies for at least continuous 6 hours before charging.
Likewise, Garuda KDE on my Dell 3310 laptop (i3/8gb/256SSD) gets literally HALF of that.
27 • Laptop battery life (by David on 2023-10-23 15:44:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
My laptop is for libraries and emergencies and it's always run off the mains. I can't remember how long the battery lasts — about 3 hours I think — but that's not bad considering that it's recently celebrated its 20th birthday! But it's a genuine IBM.
28 • Is a laptop still a laptop if it's plugged in all the time? (by K B Tidwell on 2023-10-23 15:44:50 GMT from United States)
I use my laptop plugged in all the time too unless I'm sitting on the back patio. And it's still a laptop when it's plugged in. That's the form-factor, not the power supply status.
29 • re. 28 & co. (by Someguy on 2023-10-23 16:03:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ah, yes, most amusing! There was a book many years ago 'use and abuse' of language. Suppose nowhere does the use abuse of short-form colloquialisms abound more than in this area of technology. There's another book somewhere on my shelf, title something like Complete Plain Words. For the birds...
30 • @14 "Unsatifsied with BGUB2.." (by picamanic on 2023-10-23 16:05:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
@14 "Unsatisfied with GRUB2 and recent multiboots attempts. HOW CAN WE PROGRESS There" I have used GRUB 2 [I assume] for many different non-systemd distros over the last decade, including multiboots [without Windows], without any of the problems you report. This may be because none of my computers use gpt/UEFI. Clue?
31 • Installing L Mint not for simple souls (by Jan on 2023-10-23 16:22:32 GMT from Netherlands)
Continuing on the discussions of last week I decided to install L Mint besides Win 10 (after more than 10 years without Linux).
I succeeded, but this is not for Linux uninformed people. It is not: "Start it up" and "completion with success". Decisions have to be made which are not intuitive, I needed info through internet, using another PC.
I was supprised because Mint has such a good name as an easy distro.
32 • Laptop battery life (by Jeff on 2023-10-23 17:08:32 GMT from United States)
@1 That's because that is not the question
33 • cinnamon (by vornan19 on 2023-10-23 17:42:01 GMT from Canada)
Ubuntu cinnamon suffers compared to Mint in three ways:
1.. Pulseaudio not installed by default, though it is in the base Ubuntu!
2. No easy way to change Language of time/Date
3. Many Crash reports though no restarts.
Annoyances as you can fix 1 and live with 3
But Mint has n this all polished and just works, so why use a crippled system?
34 • Unsatisfied with GRUB2 (by Pumpino on 2023-10-23 20:13:08 GMT from Australia)
@14 Try rEFInd as a boot manager. It's fantastic. I couldn't go back to Grub.
35 • Mint vs Ubuntu Cinnamon (by Pumpino on 2023-10-23 20:20:34 GMT from Australia)
I agree with Jesse's review. When it comes to Cinnamon, Ubuntu Cinnamon feels like a thrown together distro without any polish. Mint, on the other hand, oozes polish, a bit like openSUSE.
If people don't like Ubuntu, they can use LMDE, which is what I'm currently using. The underlying packages are more recent. There's always the option to switch to Mint following Ubuntu's next LTS release, meaning that the underlying OS is refreshed every year instead of every two years.
I love Mint's software manager. Whenever there's a Debian or flatpak update available, there's a notification in the panel. So few distros have a software manager that monitors both OS and flatpak updates. I don't want to be manually checking for flatpak updates daily.
36 • Canonical and the desktop (by Otis on 2023-10-23 21:15:04 GMT from United States)
@8 .. the rest of the quote is, "These days Canonical doesn't seem to care much about the desktop. After scrapping Unity and moving back to GNOME, the company has largely left the desktop to be stagnant. Most desktops and community editions have ignored Wayland, Ubuntu Touch was turned over to the UBports community, and Ubuntu One was shut down."
No "regurgitation," just the reviewer reporting his findings. Perhaps the author of post #8 has something stuck in the throat.
37 • LMDE6 (by John on 2023-10-23 22:32:18 GMT from Canada)
Been using LMDE6 since it came out and it's been rock solid for me. Hands down, the best "just works" distro - handles everything from plain web surfing to latest gaming such as Cyberpunk 2077 Phantom Liberty with zero issues. I've been Windows-Free for years, but bounced around through a few distros. Think I'm gonna stick with LMDE :-)
38 • On the ease, or lack of it, of installing Linux Mint (by TL on 2023-10-24 03:39:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
@the author of #31: I suspect that Mint coped poorly with your hardware. True, in my experience Mint does a better job than many versions of Linux at supporting a wide range of hardware. Yet, some hardware has problems with Linux, and sometimes this owes merely to the Linux kernel not having caught up with the hardware. Mint supplies a way around that problem - in the form of its Mint 'edge edition', which includes a newer version of the Linux kernel.
39 • Crippled system? (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-24 09:16:30 GMT from Netherlands)
@33 (by vornan19 from Canada)
> Ubuntu cinnamon suffers compared to Mint in three ways:
>
> 1. Pulseaudio not installed by default, though it is in the base Ubuntu!
> 2. No easy way to change Language of time/Date
> 3. Many Crash reports though no restarts.
>
> Annoyances as you can fix 1 and live with 3
>
> But Mint has n this all polished and just works, so why use a crippled system?
--
1. Why would you want pulseaudio if you have pipewire and working sound?
2. Why would you claim such nonsense? See screenshots below...
3. I didn't really experience any cinnamon crashes.
"No easy way to change Language of time/Date"?
Starting point:
English interface language with English calendar.
https://postimg.cc/N50BZLPs
English-language setting...
https://postimg.cc/yk2tnNMr
...with a German regional format.
https://postimg.cc/WdMWnw6h
Now, that was pretty easy to change the language of time and date in a matter of seconds, wasn't it?
So, why would someone with crippled knowledge blame the OS for its own lack of knowledge?
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know." (Mark Twain)
40 • It already exists (by Flaviano Matos on 2023-10-24 09:44:34 GMT from Brazil)
@22 "I know this is an unpopular opinion, but why hasn't Ubuntu just added an additional screen to the install process and ask what nearly vanilla desktop environment the user wants to install?"
It already exists. It's called OpenSuse. 8-) There's Mageia as well. ;-)
41 • Cyberpunk on Linux? (by Flaviano Matos on 2023-10-24 10:15:04 GMT from Brazil)
@37 I was surprised that you could play Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux, as it's a Windows-only title. It was easy to find how to do it. It's so easy that it seemed a for-dummies tutorial. >:-#
If I knew it before, I could have bought a gamer PC instead of a PS 4!
42 • Should Canonical Accept Hobbyist Remixes As Official Spins? (by joncr on 2023-10-24 10:15:40 GMT from United States)
I'd expect the experienced Linux Mint team to turn out a better implementation of their own product than an essentially one-person shop producing an Ubuntu spin of Cinnamon.
The broader question: Should Canonical accept these remixes as official spins?
43 • distro remixes (by Nigel on 2023-10-24 18:19:03 GMT from New Zealand)
@42 - it seems several of Canonical's "spins" are one-man projects. It is better to be master of a couple of things than be amateur at a dozen. Mint looked a their resources and dropped KDE/Plasma, so now only support Cinnamon, MATE and Xfce. Manjaro officially only support Gnome, KDE/Plasma and Xfce - beyond which community spins exist for a dozen more desktops. Those seem to have more of a team behind them than Canonical bother to engage in the task, and the quality difference is obvious.
@22 - you highlight another approach, one already well implemented by RebornOS and Endeavor. You can choose your desktop at install time from one ISO. The latter even allows you to install more desktops a screen or two further into the installer.
44 • Spinning (by Friar Tux on 2023-10-24 21:02:06 GMT from Canada)
@42, @43... I believe Jesse already answered that question in @25. Canonical is not interested in "spins". They are only interested in Gnome. It is up to those "one-man projects" if anyone wants spins. Should Canonical accept these remixes as official spins? Nope. Not if they're not interested. Can you imagine the horrible quality of workmanship if they're not interested? Leave the spins to people that like what they're doing - one man show or not.
45 • Ubuntu Cinnamon (by Barnabyh on 2023-10-24 21:51:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
Interesting to see how Ubuntu Cinnamon is going for the orangey brown look of yesteryear. I liked it more than the purple Ubuntu has transitioned to. Perhaps they are trying to evoke the feeling of the old releases with Gnome 2 with their Cinnamon spin.
Apart from this, there is nothing interesting or worth using about it. Just leave Cinnamon on Debian and Ubuntu to Linux Mint.
The battery on my ASUS still does around 4 hours after nearly 5 years of daily usage and charging. Not bad for an average consumer laptop, although the i7 was quite high end in the day.
46 • Ubuntu Cinnamon vs LMDE Review (by Dan on 2023-10-25 01:29:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
I really like this format of testing distros with similar aims, desktops (or whatever) side by side. It makes a lot of sense. I suspected LMD
I have been trying to decide which Debian based distro (not interested in Buntus, can't be bothered with being told Snap is the future (it isn't!). I Would like to see SpiralLinux tested again and see how it compares to MXLinux and maybe a discussion of how regular Debian and LMDE compare to them. As things stand, I'm leaning towards Spiral, but an up-to-date review would definitely help me out. I don't think there are many reviews of the most recent Spiral release out there from the main usual suspects.
47 • comparisons (by John on 2023-10-25 12:25:52 GMT from Canada)
@46 - I've tried all the ones you mentioned and while MXLinux and Spiral are basically just plain Debian with some tweaks, they all work well, but LMDE is by far the most polished.
48 • pings the lmde servers for faye (by MInuxLintEbianDedition on 2023-10-25 16:49:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Using lmde 32 bit on the eee pc 700 4G, lmde 3 is ok with mate desktop, can get 3.5 hrs out of the battery playing music with the screen blanked and wifi-off. If you have 6 x eee pc 700, take two on holiday with all 6 batteries, can use one eee pc to charge batteries while the other works, have over 20 hrs battery life this way.
49 • @39 (by vornan19 on 2023-10-25 17:43:37 GMT from Canada)
Sorry it is you who is ignorant
Pipewire if it was installed did NOT play the sound in pearlchess.jar , try it!
Neither mint nor Fedora had this problem.
Regional settings are not as easy as Mint, which is just a click away and a google search did not list your solution so I stand by claim. I didn't say it wa s impossible jsut more work than should be necessary.
So YOU dint get crash reports and that means others didn't?
It's not a bad distro just not up to Mint's ease of use and polish.
50 • @49 (by vornan19 from Canada) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-25 18:51:44 GMT from Netherlands)
@49: "Pipewire if it was installed did NOT play the sound in pearlchess.jar , try it!"
How about you try some better apps instead of some Java apps, which are often having all kinds of issues on all kinds of OS? This might also be a permissions issue with Java.
@49: "Neither mint nor Fedora had this problem."
Fedora has been using pipewire forever; they were the first to start using it.
@49: "Regional settings are not as easy as Mint, which is just a click away and a google search did not list your solution so I stand by claim."
Whichever OS you use, you need to learn how it works. For an Ubuntu user, those regional settings have been like that since... a decade?
Not easier or harder than in Mint—just different.
@49: "So YOU dint get crash reports and that means others didn't?"
...which is a classic here—you and yourself and the center of the world. ;)
The other way around, if YOU are getting constant crash reports, does that mean that everybody else is also getting them? That's what I tried to teach you. ;)
Just see it as is—Cinnamon is ready for the museum, be it on Ubuntu or on Spicedbuntu.
It's 2023, and that thing still looks like the ugly version of Windows Vista, and there's not even a Wayland session available. Hello 2007, we're heading backward!
51 • @49 (by vornan19 on 2023-10-25 19:13:36 GMT from Canada)
Java is common and there was no issue except sound and only on Cinnamon Ubuntu cause they did NOT have library compatibility with standard Ubuntu which is advertised on the homepage..Again, on stock Ubuntu or any version of Fedora or linux Mint there were NO issues with java apps.
The fix was a simple install pulseaudio-java or something like that.
This should be noted and fixed bu Ubuntu Cinnamon.
Cinnamon is fine and works better than some others
52 • MX vs LMDE (by Sebastien on 2023-10-25 21:18:43 GMT from France)
@47 LMDE might be the more polished, still it is Cinnamon only. So I landed on MX Xfce at v18 (Stretch) and still here. Very happy with it: a kind of "forget me os" just like Mint is and just like I want my daily driver to behave: always ready to serve, improving smoothly, no big surprise. Perfect to me.
53 • Wayland|Cinnamon (by Nigel on 2023-10-25 22:53:45 GMT from New Zealand)
@50 for me Cinnamon has been the best and most predictable desktop for over a decade. The toolset on others like KDE or Xfce seemed to have some unexpected wrinkles. Some of those have been fixed over time - 12/24 clocks in Plasma, Thunar grew an F3 dual-panel. But if you are going to trash Cinnamon, please do inform us what you alternative is that you would recommend.
As for Wayland, so far you can get Sway, and then a growing list of incomplete still-in-the-lab others like Wayfire, Weston or Hyprland. Sway being the only one that even looks to be anywhere near "production ready." Notably, Manjaro have a Sway community edition...
54 • Ubuntu Cinnamon (by vornan19 on 2023-10-26 01:03:13 GMT from Canada)
@39
Sorry but I test debian software and U Cinnamon was the only Debian distro
that did not have sound working for java apps out of the box. Additional backend
software was needed.
Yes there were crashes and a google search did not turn up an easy way to switch regional language but rather a similar complaint. Again , this is where Mint is more polished and led me to question the reason for this distro.
55 • GRUB2 problems (by Clarence Perry on 2023-10-26 02:15:48 GMT from United States)
I have had problems running multiple linux distributions if one has automatic download ot updates or is a live system.
They seem to screw up any existing GRUB setup. I've decided no more testing new distributions until this is fixed.
I'm tired of re-installing my base system.
And NO, grub-install doesn't work to put things back right.
56 • @14 • Unsatisfied with GRUB2 and recent multiboots attempts (by Kazlu on 2023-10-26 10:48:42 GMT from France)
What you are attempting is far from straightforward (2 Linux OSes with a shared /home folder) and I am not surprised it is not handled well with default options of Linux installers. If you need to have a very specific setup, you need to configure some things manually in your systems.
To answer your questions:
Q1: no idea at this stage, but see below.
Q2: probably not. The installer only acts as a front-end for the tools that manage the bootloader and GRUB (os-prober, grub-install, etc.) and different installers probably use the same tools underneath... but maybe with different configurations. However those configurations would remain different across distributions even with the same installer, so don't sweat it, the solution to your issue is elsewhere.
My first lead would be that a common /home partition for both systems could be the start of your difficulties. I would recommend keeping separate /home folders, possibly with dynamic links to a "Documents" partition that would be common. The idea is that the config files contained in /home would stay separate, but you could have shared documents. Or you could share some configuration files if you wish so, but even just common Firefox profiles would be a problem when Firefox versions conflict between your 2 Linux systems. Anyway, you're better off picking by hand whatever config files you want to share across distros rather than trying to share them all. Then, maybe when you install a system, it disrupts the mounting configuration of the other? Changing UUIDs and the like? Not sure. I suggest picking one of your distributions as "master", that will be the one you install GRUB with, and reach out to them for assistance in repairing your GRUB with tools similar to what boot-repair is in Ubuntu (I don't know if it is in Fedora or Arch repos).
Good luck :)
57 • @51 & @54 (by vornan19 from Canada) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-26 10:51:48 GMT from Netherlands)
@51: "Java is common..."
Maybe in your (corporate?) world, but the fact is that it is getting removed from modern OS like Mac or Windows, and that the Java applications were often causing troubles—minor annoyances like in your example.
Some of the biggest criticisms of Android are its memory hunger, subpar performance, heating issues, lesser security, and difficult coding of intuitive modern user experiences and interfaces, which are all direct consequences of using Java programming.
@51: "...and there was no issue except sound and only on Cinnamon Ubuntu cause they did NOT have library compatibility with standard Ubuntu which is advertised on the homepage..Again, on stock Ubuntu or any version of Fedora or linux Mint there were NO issues with java apps."
@54: "Sorry but I test debian software and U Cinnamon was the only Debian distro that did not have sound working for java apps out of the box. Additional backend software was needed."
You take a beta OS and some ominous Java application used by a handful of people, and when you find a bug or missing dependency, you judge it a crippeled system?
It hardly makes any sense even comparing Cinnamon on Ubuntu and in Mint, as Mint is a developer of Cinnamon and has implemented it already for a decade, while "Cinnabuntu" is a brand new "one man show" Ubuntu "flavor".
@51: "The fix was a simple install pulseaudio-java or something like that."
Now, was the fix installing pulseaudio-java OR SOMETHING like that? ;)
@54: "...a google search did not turn up an easy way to switch regional language but rather a similar complaint."
This is just a knowledge issue, as anybody can use Google Search, but not everybody can find something with its help.
The setup of time, date, language, and region is identical in both cases.
https://postimg.cc/D8ZCQHDv
https://postimg.cc/75Jmd7wj
BTW, web searching also needs to be learned. ;)
If I search for "change region & language +ubuntu 22.04", the correct results are shown on places 1, 3, and 4.
@54: "Again , this is where Mint is more polished and led me to question the reason for this distro."
Again, this is the question of the user's knowledge or lack thereof.
The setup of time, date, language, and region is identical.
@54: "Yes there were crashes..."
I seriously doubt that you can even tell the difference between warnings and crashes.
Have you ever tried to boot your Mint in verbose mode? How many "crashes" did you see?
The very first thing you get to see upon booting Linux Mint:
https://postimg.cc/bDPKTLcz
Not every "can't remove," "device not found," or "connection to the bus can't be made" is a "crash" (error, issue, etc.).
If one understands how the OS works and what it is doing, then one also knows why, and if one doesn't, then one is not going to some forums, write nonsense comments, and complain about it, but it either learns or it lets it be for good.
58 • @53 Wayland|Cinnamon (by Nigel from New Zealand) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-26 11:03:12 GMT from Netherlands)
@53: "The toolset on others like [...] or Xfce seemed to have some unexpected wrinkles."
I personally highly dislike KDE and won't comment on that part, but as for Xfce, it has many issues that have never been fixed or even got worse over time. Xfce is utterly broken.
@53: "Some of those have been fixed over time - [...], Thunar grew an F3 dual-panel."
Nice that they added one function that isn't really needed, but since years, they still haven't fixed the most essential function—icon spacing—in Thunar. That issue alone is enough to uninstall Thunar right away upon OS installation, or at least to add another file manager that works.
This is a serious technical issue and affects every XFCE distribution. Thunar is missing a predefined icon grid size.
https://postimg.cc/9zh7d9DJ
Create 10 files with a short name and one hidden file ("dot-file") with a long name. Unhide and then hide the hidden files, and you reproduced it.
https://postimg.cc/cKGspRyz
https://postimg.cc/9RWcMcft
https://postimg.cc/RqYzr7wT
The file that you expected to be in one place ("visual memory") isn't there where you expected it to be.
@53: "But if you are going to trash Cinnamon, please do inform us what you alternative is that you would recommend."
Recommending something to somebody you don't personally know is always complete nonsense. There is always an objective and subjective part to it. Trashing Cinnamon can be for objective or subjective reasons, and objective reasons are justified.
Some people are open-minded, flexible, and adaptable. Others are stuck in their habits. One can hardly recommend something to "a creature of habit" that just wants to follow "the muscle memory" and is unwilling to change the workflow, even if another workflow could actually be a more efficient way of working once one has adopted and learned the new way. That's the subjective part, and to each their own.
The cosmetic part is also subjective. Some people love flat themes, some hate them, and if somebody prefers Cinnamon's "dusty look of yore", that's fine, but the fact is that its looks are stuck in 2007.
However, there is also the objective part, like, for example, Wayland. Xorg is dead for good, and WM not supporting it is not recommendable today. Technology evolves and moves on for a reason, and there is a good reason why systemd, Wayland, Flatpak, Snap, etc. are replacing the old technologies.
@53: "for me Cinnamon has been the best and most predictable desktop for over a decade."
For YOU + "most predictable desktop" === "the creature of habit" coming from Windows.
For another MacJoe, it might also be much less predictable, but objective points still stand.
59 • Laptop battery life (by JeffC on 2023-10-26 13:50:30 GMT from United States)
Which laptop? I have more than one, all are different models.
Which batteries for it?
There will be a huge difference in how long a 72wh battery lasts vs a 24wh battery.
Some ThinkPads had an internal battery and an external battery, the system was intended to run down the external battery then while running on the internal battery the external battery could be removed and replaced with a charged one.
60 • The March of Tech Evolution (by Otis on 2023-10-26 14:15:48 GMT from United States)
@58 "Technology evolves and moves on for a reason, and there is a good reason why systemd, Wayland, Flatpak, Snap, etc. are replacing the old technologies."
I would love to see "a reason" for systemd that is within an (assumed) ADVANCE of technology.
Or plural thereof.
Linux did not need, does not need, systemd. Systemd needs Linux.
Some see the original developer of that init system as a Microsoft shill. I don't go that far but do find his career choices interesting.
61 • @60 (by Otis from United States) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-26 14:56:21 GMT from Netherlands)
I am aware that there are still people who believe in a flat Earth and that there is no point in discussing against someone's beliefs, and so, @60: "Linux did not need, does not need, systemd" will stay your delusion until you discover why all distributions worth installing are using it. ;)
62 • Pulseaudio and battery life (by Matt on 2023-10-26 15:28:59 GMT from United States)
I found Pulseaudio was using unusual amount of CPU (on Debian at least) and battery. I switched to pipewire, and that went away. The things I did to improve laptop battery:
-TLP
-bumblebee to switch of Nvidia driver when not needed
-replace pulseaudio with pipewire
All 3 of those made a difference.
Some manufacturers don't offer easy ways to adjust temperature/fan speed profiles, and some do. If you do have the ability, you can also adopt a profile with a less aggressive use of fans. The laptop will run hotter in exchange for less noise and a little longer battery life.
63 • cinnamon (by vornan19 on 2023-10-26 17:56:30 GMT from Canada)
@57 >"you take a beta OS....."
Excuse me but where does it say BETA in the homepage?
"Ubuntu Cinnamon is a community-driven flavor of Ubuntu, combining Linux Mint’s flagship Cinnamon Desktop with Ubuntu, packed with everything you need to go with it. Keeping stability, speed, and elegance is our top priority.
Cinnamon takes the more traditional approach of a GNOME 2 and MATE-like desktop. Similar to Windows 7, it is easy to transition from your Windows system to Ubuntu Cinnamon Remix, and even if you still prefer to keep Windows on the side, you can always dual-boot Windows and Ubuntu Cinnamon."
Straight from the horse's mouth
Of course this is a question of the reader's knowledge.
My point is not that it is BAD but here were some problems that seemed
unduly complicated.
So what is it Cinnamon brings to the table over Mint which already has the polished
Cinnamon experience?
As for Java being an annoyance , well so be it. I am a beta tester and let me tell you that there are still many applications that have chosen java despite all its warts.
64 • cinnamon (by vornan19 on 2023-10-26 19:56:42 GMT from Canada)
Seems like my reply got deleted , I wonder why.@57
Cinnamon Ubuntu is not Beta
Java is still commonly used and Mint is is easier to use for users and developers who just want to get things done without unnecessary
annoyances. That was my point.
What is the raison d'etre for Ubuntu Cinnamon?
65 • I never miss a week here... (by Tom Joad on 2023-10-26 22:34:17 GMT from Austria)
I send more and more time on this part of distrowatch as time passes. No, I don't spend a lot of time here but rather more than I once did. Back then I gave the whole page a once over and down the road.
Not now. And this week is a good example.
We started with some reviews from Jesse. Jesse also offered a 'how to' on tuning laptop battery life I guess. My tower has batteries but neither is much trouble. My laptop is always plugged so I don't work much about it. I have, however, had to replace the laptop battery which was not easy despite the fact, again, I seldom use it. Then we were off to the races as my mom would say.
We have since moved on to a plethora of issues. It has been Unbuntu this and Ubuntu that. Cinnamon this and Cinnamon that. LMDE this and LMDE that.
Then someone opened the giant can of worms....the dreaded, ever evil, the Beelzebul of Linux...the unneeded, supposedly, SYSTEMD!!!!
YIKES!
I just love it. I do. I would miss this for most anything....with the exception some nice bourbon and a bit of ice.
Sling it, guys, sling it.
66 • more about battery life (by JeffC on 2023-10-27 00:27:25 GMT from United States)
More efficient hardware can help with battery life as well as some advanced configurations.
Bluetooth 5 is much more efficient than Bluetooth 4, so replacing a Bluetooth 4 device will save some power.
Some NVMe drives are much more power efficient than others.
Some screens use less power than others; 1080 vs 4K, IPS vs OLED...
Screen brightness matters as anything over 50% uses exponentially more power.
Undervolting (if your CPU is capable) helps in two ways; directly lowering power consumption and reducing how much the fan, which also uses power, needs to run to keep the temperature managed.
67 • the dekstop must fit the user (by Nigel on 2023-10-27 06:27:35 GMT from New Zealand)
@58 and others. Thanks for the good discussion. I am not "stuck from 2007 Windows", but very open to something better. But it MUST work. We all only discover better if someone says "hey, look at this, this works for me." So I am curious to see what people recommend and why, then go try it for myself.
I was being kind on KDE Plasma and Xfce - as some of the comments bear out, they remain, relative to Cinnamon, rather broken. The way the text editor is 'tied' into Thunar is awkward to say the least, many options hang out of the wall like picture nails in an old house. Just this week I have tried Mint Xfce, Manjaro Xfce (there are some glaring contrasts between those two implementations!!) and even tried an implementation of Sway. The Sway experience - well, if Cinnamon is 2007, then Sway was a tour of Xerox labs in the early 1960s looking at a 0.1 version.
In a typical week I will often download, install and try out 3 or 4 distros with different desktops. Cinnamon still lean heavily on Gnome code for their X apps, like xed and pix, based on gedit and gthumb respectively. Changes to gthumb have propagated to pix and a few things broke. Since mid September the thumbnailer in Nemo has changed and does not 'see' new images from my camera - just for today's date. Except if they have been edited in GiMP, then it thumbnails them. No desktop is perfect, but these are (some of) recent regressions that concern me.
68 • @63 & @64 (by vornan19 from Canada) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-27 07:10:19 GMT from Netherlands)
@63: "Excuse me but where does it say BETA in the homepage?"
Since when do we trust advertisements?
What the webpage says is irrelevant. Relevant is WHAT IS.
@63: "Of course this is a question of the reader's knowledge."
... because the user would want to inform himself before he tries, buys, etc.
The Ubuntu release circle is very well known:
- Every two years, there is a new Ubuntu LTS (Long Time Support) release, with 5-years of support (or 10 with an account) for the main edition and 3-years for "flavours". Releases are named YY.04 (e.g., 20.04, 22.04, 24.04, etc.).
- Between LTS releases, there are development releases (aka "Beta" or "Experimental") with 9-month support.
@63: "My point is not that it is BAD but here were some problems that seemed unduly complicated."
Your point is not how it is bad, just how it is crippled (@33). ;) :) :)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/crippled
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/crippled
My point is that I don't care for Cinnamon, Ubuntu, or Mint, but I'm worried about your reasoning.
Again:
Your main, second objection in @33 just doesn't hold, as date, time, language, and regional settings are set basically the same way in both distributions.
Your third objection doesn't stand, as it is not clear if you can even say the difference between crash, warning, informative, and all other message types.
Pipewire replaced pulseaudio, and your first objection also does not stand. The issue that you encountered arose due to the missing Java plugin.
Speaking about major annoyance and a crippled system because you found one minor bug irrelevant for 99.99% of people just makes no sense at all. People who care for chess would even take a better-looking or more sophisticated chess program anyway.
If you brought us something like this as an annoyance example, it would make at least some sense, as it would affect more than a handful of users out there.
https://postimg.cc/68JDNwjY
But even then, it wouldn't justify calling Linux Mint crippled because of the video player bug that might happen on some systems but not on others.
69 • Ciinamon Ubuntu LMDE and the state of Linux desktop (by Mate From DownUnder on 2023-10-27 07:53:14 GMT from United States)
Interesting but somewhat odd review.
LMDE is not the primary MINT edition which is based on Ubuntu.
IMHO really a better comparison would be Ubuntu Cinnamon vs Mint Cinnamon.
Although I don't run either.
It doesn't surprise me Cinnamon have a noticeable 'lag' that is one reason I don't use it or any other desktop I use Mate it is by far lighter, faster and more stable even than XFCE.
Anyway for anyone FYI begiiner or intermediate;
Save yourself a bunch of time if you are looking for the most stable version, fastest and best;
Use Mint "Mate" and not LMDE or Ubuntu or any other desktop.
Also you get Caja which is the most complete Filemanager and although it is somewhat bloated the lightness of Mate offsets it.
Mate is even better than XFCE on MINT (I tried XFCE MINT awhile ago 20.2 or so, and frankly it has a lot of glitches and it is not lighter nor faster on MINT. It actually is laggy by comparison just like any of the other DE offered.)
I wish MINT would give up the Cinnamon "dream" (it has had the most problems - just like most other in-house developed experimental Desktops) and just stick with taking Mate to where is possibly could go into a better future for Linux Desktops.
The main probelm of Desktop Linux is.. well the Desktop. All the Complete DE Desktops on Linux tend to be laggy or use a huge anount of resources.
Some now swear by KDE Plasma, but in the old days it was much heaver than even Gnome.
I haven't tried it and not likely to because typically I use older hardware and totaly satisfied with MATE anyway.
The fact is most Mint Geeks are always looking to go to LMDE because what we want is MINT in all its Glory, with all the features but Ubuntu/ Canonical and Heavy DE bloat out of the picture.
However LMDE is never going to be a real complete system because it is simply not the main drive of the Distro per the main Developer Clem, it is more or less an experimental system.
So you can't can't have your cake and eat it too. (altough MINT with MATE is closest to that IMO)
The fact is Ubuntu / Canonical kept this whole side of Linux going otherwise Debian would simply not have the market to ever get this far although I'm certainly not knocking it (don't flame me please, lol)
Debian is the Engine of the system, while Ubuntu is more or less the Manufacturer and MINT is the retailer Customizer or "Tuner".
Unfortunately LMDE is not a production shortcut to hotrod heaven unless you know a lot of Linux.
Or are satisfied with a Window Manager and not a complete DE and know enough to customise.
And then if you are real Linux geek you may as well just go to staright Debian, or another system like MX, or and Arch -based or independent like VOID etc.
70 • @67 (by Nigel from New Zealand) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-27 09:14:11 GMT from Netherlands)
@67: "I am not "stuck from 2007 Windows", but very open to something better. But it MUST work. We all only discover better if someone says "hey, look at this, this works for me.""
OK, it must work, but for whom? For you? For me? For the most flexible people? For most "creature of habit" users? For old and visually impaired people? For scientific text writers? For fiction writers? For video cutters or graphic designers? For programmers?
"Better" depends on the use case, the individual user, and its workflow.
If you do some research work and often need some information from different internet sources (quotes, links, etc.), you would probably want a double-width screen, so you can open the web browser in one half and your writing application in another half. That helps with efficient copying and pasting from the web browser into the writing program.
On the other side, if you are writing a novel, doing some graphic work, or cutting videos, you will never use anything but a full-screen.
If you have multiple windows open, you can either open them all on one desktop (the Windows way) or you will have each window open on another (virtual) desktop (the Gnome and Mac way).
At this point, user habits come into play, and someone used to Windows will miss the taskbar, minimize and maximize, and eventually "show desktop" buttons.
The thing is that with a different workflow, one doesn't need those minimize, maximize, and "show desktop" buttons because they do not improve efficacy, but the exact opposite.
The Mac user would swype from one to another fullscreen (multifinger gestures), but that swyping has a "natural bug" built-in—that if one's not 100% concentrated, one can easily delete or move one part of the text, reposition the image, and similar. There are many people with sweaty fingers, and their fingers just want be sliding smoothly over the touchpad (there is a touchpad for Mac desktop computers too!) surface.
The Gnome solution is the most efficient in such a case, as the user would use the keyboard shortcuts to switch between different virtual desktops, and the "activities" feature offers very nice previews of contents if needed.
Minimize and maximize buttons are not helping the efficiency unless you are measuring the efficiency according to constant minimizing and maximizing the windows, as in a normal case, one would open Cinelerra, Gimp, Inkscape, LO Writer, or Focus Writer and then spend the next half a day in that one window.
Panel (Dash, Shelf, Taskbar, Toolbar, etc., as in Windows, Mac, etc.) also does not improve efficiency. It allows for quicker opening of most used applications, but one is not opening and closing applications all day long; one opens those few that one needs, places them on different virtual desktops, and that was it.
At the same time, the constantly present panel on any side of the screen is an annoyance that is robbing the screen space needed by the main application. That's the reason why most people who actually work set panels on autohide. Mouse over or keyboard shortcut would show it again, just like in Gnome.
The start menu, like in Windows, isn't better or more efficient. One opens the nested menu, and one goes through different categories, trying to poke at some miniature icons. In Mac, a full screen with nice and large icons opens, and even 90-year-olds and/or visually impaired people have no difficulties "poking at the icons." Gnome also lets you freely group the application icons, and they will be sorted in the way that's most suitable for the user. Some people will sort everything alphabetically, others will create groups, etc. It is definitely more efficient than Cinnamon, KDE, MATE, or XFCE.
Tilling window managers might be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the actual use case. Most people would use them "the Gnome way", "one application per virtual destop," where they have no advantage. Their strength is in cases where one has a lot of small windows, like 15 simultaneously open terminals, as they will "auto-place" themselves and one doesn't have to resize and position them one by one. They are often used by programmers.
In other words, you have to try them all and check how well they do their job in conjunction with your own use case.
BTW, Fedora uses "vanilla Gnome." Ubuntu Gnome is modified, and one can reposition and resize the panel in the settings; however, one can never get completely rid of it like in Fedora. Autohide is available, though. Ubuntu also shows those minimize and maximize buttons on the windows, which are unnecessary but easy enough to ignore.
71 • @70, Ubuntu panel, titlebar buttons (by Mr. Moto on 2023-10-27 11:42:04 GMT from Japan)
@70, "Ubuntu Gnome is modified, and one can reposition and resize the panel in the settings; however, one can never get completely rid of it like in Fedora. Autohide is available, though. Ubuntu also shows those minimize and maximize buttons on the windows, which are unnecessary but easy enough to ignore."
By 'panel' I assume you mean the Ubuntu dock. It can be removed by installing gnome-shell-extensions. Open the app and disable Ubuntu dock. The titlebar buttons can also be removed by installing gnome-tweaks. Open the app, choose "titlebar" and disable 'minimize' and 'maximize' there. The top bar can also be removed by using extensions, giving you a completely plain desktop.
I run Ubuntu 22.04 with Gnome heavily modified to my own needs and wants.
72 • MATE (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-27 12:36:58 GMT from Netherlands)
In the case of MATE, MATE is not always the same as MATE.
As a rule of thumb, only downloading Fedora spices will give you the "vanilla experience".
Downloading anything else will be more or less customized.
Fedora: https://postimg.cc/3ynnmrJr
Mint: https://postimg.cc/jWwLQZRW
Ubuntu: https://postimg.cc/3kPDqPSj
Not only does MATE look dated, but it has (too) many 'visual glitches'.
Now, if you don't care or can't see the issues, then you're lucky.
If you want to fix that Mint calendar appearance, good luck.
And if you attempt to fix the Ubuntu calendar and indicator icon spacing, better start learning how to code. Ubuntu MATE replaced the old plugins with Ayatana indicators.
If you like the MATE (Gnome 2) look but you'd like modern features like Wayland and just want to get the job done without annoyances, then you better take the Fedora Workstation and switch to "better MATE" on the login screen—it comes preinstalled with every Fedora Gnome. Replace the wallpaper, and you're ready to rumble.
https://postimg.cc/LgZcxgn3
It just works. Automagically. ;)
73 • @71 (by Mr. Moto from Japan) (by why-oh-why on 2023-10-27 12:46:29 GMT from Netherlands)
Oh yes, I am aware that it CAN BE changed by installing some extensions and/or using some other 'hacks'.
My response was related to the default settings panel that ships with Ubuntu 22.04.
74 • Systemd (by Otis on 2023-10-27 20:24:06 GMT from United States)
@61 Equating a negative opinion about an init system with "flatearthers" is just more diversion and seems to seek to pull us in an argumentative direction on insults (which seems to be a commonality in many of the why-why-why posts we see in here), marbled in with some techy language and plenty of obfuscation.
Systemd init has been adopted by a large portion of the Linux developer/maintainer community in much the same ways and for similar reasons as many other cumbersome "advances" have in other areas of modern life. There are websites which showcase those reasons and which explain the inferiority of that init as compared to many of the others. I'm sure you're a heavy enough search engine user to be aware of those sites.
But, you have an allegiance to systemd, "belief" as you said to me about my observations, so we have nothing to talk about, at least not here.
Perhaps you like the notion of all distos being the same, using the same init system. I don't, any more than I like efforts in other industries to make all of one style of product to be like the others. Standards are good, lack of diversity is not. Long live diversity.
75 • airing the laundry (by Nigel on 2023-10-27 20:57:59 GMT from New Zealand)
:) what an entertaining week :)
Some people may need to see their GP for blood pressure meds. Hopefully we all are here as we found Linux/BSD as a solution to not running the proprietary OSes. Diversity and choice are part of that landscape. The result is that (almost) everyone can find their comfortable spot amongst the myriad of distros, desktops, etc.
76 • Cinnamon Is Yummy - Wayland is coming (by M.Z. on 2023-10-27 22:43:03 GMT from United States)
I've been using Cinnamon almost since it came out & have very few issues. It is slow & steady, with some predictable feature additions & refinements that come fairly regularly. I think it is a rock solid option that 95+% of all PC users could make use of fairly quickly & easily. It has also been rock solid on all the Debian stable based versions of LMDE as far as I can recall. I love other desktops like KDE for other reasons, but Cinnamon is great.
Anyhow, give the clear preference of the Mint & Cinnamon team for slow & steady progress (on all LTS base systems, hint hint) & the quality of their product, I find it ironic that a comment like #50 would foolishly attack Cinnamon for using an old tested bit of tech, namely X11, to display windows on the very week that Mint announces the official plan to eventually switch to Wayland:
https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=showheadline&story=16463
Or from the official blog:
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4591
People make up the most erroneous & ill informed excuses to not like things some times.
77 • LMDE 6 vs Ubuntu Cinnamon (by Chris on 2023-10-27 23:50:09 GMT from New Zealand)
I am surprised with this review with regard to hardware tests as LMDE6 has no available sound output, which is a ongoing and unresolved conflict with Pulse Audio. Otherwise it's great
Number of Comments: 77
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Linare Linux
Linare Linux was a desktop-oriented, commercial Linux distribution based on Fedora Core technology. Features of Linare Linux include a full office suite compatible with Microsoft Office, which includes word processing, spreadsheet, drawing and presentation software. It also comes with a full Internet suite, bundled with a GAIM messenger that can be used with Yahoo, MSN, AOL and ICQ protocols. Linare Linux includes Mozilla mail software, the increasingly popular Outlook-styled email program, and the Mozilla Internet browser.
Status: Discontinued
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