 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 1036, 11 September 2023 |
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Welcome to this year's 37th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
Arch Linux has become one of the most popular bases for new distributions. The combination of Arch's simple design, detailed documentation, and cutting edge software attracts a lot of developers who want to put their own spin on the distribution. One of the most recent distributions to join the Arch family is SDesk, a project which ships with the GNOME desktop running in a Wayland session. This week Jesse Smith takes SDesk for a spin and reports on his experience. SDesk, like other members of the Arch family, uses the pacman package manager, one of several popular package managers available in the Linux community. Does the package manager used by a distribution affect your decision of which distribution to run? Let us know in this week's Opinion Poll. In our News section we report on the results of a survey conducted by the openSUSE project about the future direction of the distribution. We also share news about how GNOME 45 will break forward and backward compatibility with extensions while Ubuntu works to make full disk encryption more convenient. Then we talk about how to hide passwords when performing authentication from the command line. Plus we share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. Finally, we are pleased to welcome the Relianoid distribution, an operating system focused on load balancing, to our database along with the CROWZ Devuan-based desktop distribution. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
This week's DistroWatch Weekly is presented by TUXEDO Computers.
Content:
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| Feature Story (By Jesse Smith) |
SDesk 2023.08.12
One of the more recent distributions to show up on the DistroWatch waiting list is SDesk, a distribution based on Arch Linux. The project's website describes the distribution as follows:
SDesk is a free and open source Linux operating system that ships with all of the latest technology, including GNOME 44, the Wayland compositor, and other terrific apps, like Mozilla's Firefox and Thunderbird, a complete LibreOffice suite, and more!
The SDesk website also mentions the distribution ships with the GNOME Software application for managing software packages, that we can encrypt documents from the Nautilus file manager, and the distribution can be set up using the Calamares system installer.
SDesk is available in a single edition for x86_64 machines which is 1.7GB in size. Booting from the supplied media loads the GNOME desktop running a Wayland session. Once the desktop loads, two windows open. One window offers to give us a tour of the GNOME desktop. This short tour basically just shows us how to launch applications from the Activities screen and how to see an overview of open windows. The second window contains the Calamares installer. Since the desktop seemed to be working and I was able to establish an active Internet connection, I dived quickly into the installer.
Installing
I soon found that SDesk locks the screen quickly (after five minutes) of inactivity. When this happens we can access the GNOME desktop again by using the password "live".
The Calamares installer asks us for our keyboard layout and timezone. When it comes to disk partitioning the installer offers a guided option that will take over our disk (or free space on the disk). We can also take a manual approach that is fairly easy to navigate. The guided partitioning approach will set up a single ext4 partition for the operating system and an optional swap partition or swap file.
Calamares asks us to make up a username and password. This password must be complex and cannot start with a known dictionary word. This is a bit annoying, but not necessarily a bad idea. Then the installer goes to work copying its files to our local hard drive.
While the installer was working, the GNOME session crashed and kicked me out to a login page. I signed back into the desktop, checked to make sure no install processes were still running, then tried the installer again. GNOME crashed again before I got through half of the screens of the installer.
This sort of session crash is something I've observed before with GNOME and Plasma running on Wayland sessions. I decided to switch over to GNOME's X11 session. There seems to be a few things wrong with the X11 session when running on the SDesk live media. Calamares launched automatically again, but the GNOME on X11 session had no top panel, no Activities button, and no borders around the installer window. There also wasn't any way to move the installer window. It seems like the X11 session is missing a window manager. The installer worked for a while in the X11 session, then failed and kicked me back out to the login screen.
I tried install again, this time from Wayland session, keeping a closer eye on the installer's progress. I toggled the installer's error reporting screen on and watched it to see if I could identify any issues, something that might indicate if the issue was with the install process rather than the desktop. This time though the installer finished its work successfully and I was able to restart the computer and try out my local copy of SDesk.
Early impressions
SDesk boots to a graphical login screen. Actually, by default, the operating system will automatically sign us into the GNOME desktop, but I disabled auto-login during the install process. There are several session options: GNOME on Wayland (the default), GNOME on X11, and there are options for signing into GNOME Classic which keeps the old GNOME 2/MATE layout.
Once again, signing into GNOME brings up a window offering to give us a quick tour of the desktop and a tutorial on launching applications.
SDesk 2023.08.12 -- An overview of the GNOME Shell desktop
(full image size: 251kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
My experiences with SDesk at this point diverged a bit, depending on whether I was running the distribution in VirtualBox or on my laptop. When running in VirtualBox, each of the desktop session options was unstable. I tried each option (GNOME and GNOME Classic, both on X11 and on Wayland) and never managed to have a session last longer than ten minutes. I tried switching video drivers and enabling/disabling 3-D support in VirtualBox and every time GNOME would either fail to load at all (depending on the driver selected) or crash within ten minutes. This made it virtually impossible to accomplish or test anything in the VirtualBox environment.
SDesk 2023.08.12 -- GNOME Classic crashing
(full image size: 22kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
To add insult to injury, the GNOME Shell session was sluggish, adding delays into the experience. GNOME Classic, on the other hand, performed fairly well and offered performance roughly on par with KDE Plasma or Xfce.
When I was running SDesk on my laptop, the experience was similar, but more stable. GNOME Shell was still a little slow compared to other desktops, but GNOME Classic performed well. The sessions were more stable (both on Wayland and with X11), though I still ran into some lock-ups or crashes. The system tended to stay running long enough for me to test things, but didn't run smoothly enough for me to trust it with anything important. I wouldn't walk away and leave my work unsaved, for example.
Something I noticed early on when running the distribution on my laptop was GNOME would use traditional scrolling movement when I was using a mouse, but offered inverse or "natural" scrolling when I was using the touchpad. In other words, window scrolling reversed its behaviour depending on which device I was using and I found this jarring. The behaviour can be adjusted in GNOME's settings panel.
SDesk 2023.08.12 -- The GNOME Settings panel
(full image size: 342kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
SDesk uses a light theme by default. Though some applications, such as the video player and virtual terminal, ignore this and use a dark theme instead. We can switch to a dark theme in the settings panel.
Hardware
Signing into GNOME Shell requires 1.2GB of RAM on SDesk. This is the largest memory footprint I have seen on a Linux distribution when an advanced filesystem wasn't in use. This is about double the average memory consumption for a mainstream Linux distro. GNOME Classic is lighter and uses just under 1.0GB of memory. A fresh install of the distribution takes up 6.1GB of disk space for fresh install, which is about average for a full featured desktop distribution.
I mentioned some issues I ran into above when testing the distribution. These issues with GNOME aside, SDesk worked with my laptop's hardware. My wireless card, sound, and touchpad all worked. When running GNOME Classic the system was responsive. The distribution was able to boot in both UEFI and Legacy BIOS modes without any issues.
I had quite a bit of trouble with stability with this distribution. Nothing entirely failed to work, but there was buggy behaviour. I tried to find checksum values for the install media, but was unable to locate them on the SDesk website at the time of writing.
Included software
SDesk ships with a fairly standard collection of open source software. The distribution offers us Firefox, Thunderbird, and LibreOffice. GNOME's family of applications, including a calendar, file manager, map application, and document viewer are included. We're also given the Cheese webcam utility, a music player, and the GNOME Videos (Totem) application.
SDesk 2023.08.12 -- Running the Firefox browser
(full image size: 840kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
The distribution includes the GNU command line utilities and their associated manual pages. The GNU Compiler Collection is included too. When running from the live media SDesk uses the zsh shell, but the installed version of the distribution defaults to using bash as the user's shell. In the background we find the systemd init software and version 6.4 of the Linux kernel.
Software management
SDesk includes GNOME Software, a modern software centre. Early on I noticed there weren't many packages available and whenever I'd check for updates none would be found. This puzzled me as, when using the command line pacman package manager, dozens of updates totalling over 500MB in size were found.
SDesk 2023.08.12 -- Checking for software updates
(full image size: 228kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
I discovered the reason for this is GNOME Software is configured to connect to the Flathub repository only, it doesn't connect to the Arch repositories the way pacman does. I'm not thrilled with this approach as it means the main software centre doesn't see the bulk of available software and gives the misleading impression the system is up to date when there are dozens of security fixes waiting in the wings.
Unfortunately, one of the crashes I experienced happened while pacman was processing a large batch of updates and it left the system in an unbootable state; the boot loader could no longer find the system's kernel. This required a re-install to fix. Well, to be fair, some careful fixing with the live media might have corrected the problem too, but it seemed easier and faster to re-install from scratch.
Conclusions
When I'm evaluating projects I tend to keep two questions in mind. One is whether the distribution accomplishes its goal. This is tricky to decide in SDesk's case because the distribution doesn't appear to have a specific goal or niche. The distribution seems to be aiming to be an ultra-modern, desktop-oriented, Arch-based project. However, it doesn't seem to set itself apart from the other approximately twenty Arch-based desktop distributions which do the same thing. Most of them run cutting-edge packages, use the Calamares installer, and a fairly small set of default applications. SDesk mostly does the same thing, but has more rough edges when it comes to the live media and default settings.
In other words I believe SDesk accomplishes its goal, but has a ways to go before it will feel polished and on par with other distributions in the same category.
The other main criteria I look at is how well the operating suits my needs. Can I fire it up and just start working? Is it easy to get the software I want? Do I pause and disable annoying notifications and animations? The more the experience becomes seamless for me, making me forget about the operating system while I work, the happier I am. SDesk was the opposite of seamless in my trial.
Some of the issues, I suspect, were hardware related. The regular crashing in the virtual machine and the lock-ups on my laptop, for example, were probably just unfortunate driver/compatibility issues. Other users likely won't encounter the same problems when it comes to maintaining a stable GNOME session.
However, there were other problems which kept showing up during my trial. GNOME Classic offered decent performance, but GNOME Shell did not and both were unusually heavy desktop environments. Apart from Ubuntu running GNOME and ZFS, I haven't seen memory stats this high before on a Linux distribution. Having the software centre not work with the underlying, native package manager was annoying and possibly a security concern.
There were lesser issues, like the installer demanding a complex password when most installers are content to let the user determine their own level of password security. Having the GNOME X11 session on the live media not work was another concern, especially when some users still have trouble running Wayland sessions, depending on their hardware.
SDesk is young, it hasn't had time to mature yet. Hopefully it does and sorts out some of the issues, adds more documentation, provides checksums for its media, and polishes the live media. For now, I'd say it's not yet ready to compete with other Arch-based desktop distributions, but perhaps a future release will catch up with the rest of the pack.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was an HP DY2048CA laptop with the following
specifications:
- Processor: 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1135G7 @ 2.40GHz
- Display: Intel integrated video
- Storage: Western Digital 512GB solid state drive
- Memory: 8GB of RAM
- Wireless network device: Intel Wi-Fi 6 AX201 + BT Wireless network card
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
openSUSE shares contributor opinions on the future of the distribution, GNOME 45 to break extension compatibility, Ubuntu to offer TPM-backed disk encryption
The openSUSE project has been collecting feedback on how contributors to the distribution want to see the project progress. The results of a survey filled out by contributors have been tallied and summarised in a blog post. "The openSUSE contributor community recently completed a comprehensive survey last week aimed at determining the project's future direction. The results were obtained from 327 respondents, and it sheds some light on various aspects of openSUSE's development, deployment and upgrade plans. A PDF of the survey can be found on the openSUSE Wiki. The questions and results are as follows..."
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In a move which is likely to add more work for developers and frustrate desktop users on rolling release distributions, the GNOME project is changing the way extensions work. This change will break both forward and backward compatibility. "Extensions that target older GNOME versions will not work in GNOME 45. Likewise, extensions that are adapted to work with GNOME 45 will not work in older versions. You can still support more than one GNOME version, but you will have to upload different versions to extensions.gnome.org for pre- and post-45 support." Details on this change can be found in the project's blog post.
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Canonical is working to bring more convenient full disk encryption (FDE) to Ubuntu's desktop edition. The new approach will no longer require the user to type in a password during the boot sequence. "For 15 years, Ubuntu's approach to full disk encryption relied on passphrases for authenticating users. On Ubuntu Core, however, FDE has been designed and implemented using trusted platform modules (TPMs) for more than 2 years now, starting with Core 20.
Based on Ubuntu Core's FDE design, we have been working on bringing TPM-backed full disk encryption to classic Ubuntu Desktop systems as well, starting with Ubuntu 23.10 (Mantic Minotaur) - where it will be available as an experimental feature. This means that passphrases will no longer be needed on supported platforms, and that the secret used to decrypt the encrypted data will be protected by a TPM and recovered automatically only by early boot software that is authorised to access the data.". Additional details are provided in Canonical's blog post.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Hiding passwords when authenticating on the command line
Protecting-private-passwords asks: Here I'm proposing a possible Q&A topic: Commands with a password as an argument, and how to avoid such explicit passwords. For example, lftp is an FTP client and one can use the "-u username,password" option to connect an FTP server. This may expose the password if user operations are sent to a central server (typically via syslog). Even if the shell history is not sent to a log server, anyone with access to /proc can still read the password easily (e.g. using the ps command to monitor others' activities) when the command is still running.
DistroWatch answers: There are several command line programs which will allow the user to provide their credentials (typically a username and password) on the command line. These tools often login to a remote service to fetch files or access a database in order to perform a backup. Often times command line programs, particularly older ones, will accept credentials directly on the command line. This might take the following form:
backup-database -u jesse -p MySecretPassword
There are a few problems with this approach. One is that anyone looking over my shoulder can see my secret login password. Another problem is information passed on the command line is often logged or accessible in multiple places. Most shells store command line history (accessible through the history command). Some servers log commands to a system log file. As the person writing in pointed out, information shared on the command line is also viewable to other users on the system using commands such as "ps aux". The ps command will list currently running programs and any parameters we pass to them, including passwords.
How do we work around these concerns? There are a few things we can do to make using credentials on the command line safer. Not "safe", but better. We can make sure command logging is disabled. We can also enable user process hiding. Most Linux distributions do not hide the processes of other users by default, but it's a handy tool for keeping information private from anyone other than the root user. We can also change the permissions on our home directory to prevent people from peeking at our command line history.
These are all approaches which will make it harder for other users to spy on us and gather our passwords, but it's still not ideal. These are workarounds rather than proper fixes. Fortunately, most command line programs these days offer alternatives to typing a password in the shell.
To provide a few examples, the MySQL family of tools, including the database backup program, allows the administrator to provide login credentials in an option file. As long as the file containing the user's password has its permissions set to only be readable by the user running the MySQL utilities, the credentials are safe. People using the lftp and cURL commands can store their login credentials in the ~/.netrc file.
Typically, the manual pages of modern programs will include an option for providing automated login credentials without specifying a password on the command line. Sometimes this will be done with a configuration file or, other times, with an environment variable. In any case, it's almost never necessary to type a password on the command line in plain text.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Linux Lite 6.6
Linux Lite is a beginner-friendly Linux distribution based on Ubuntu's long-term support (LTS) release and featuring the Xfce desktop. The project's latest release, version 6.6, focuses on providing a wider range of language translations. "Linux Lite 6.6 Final is now available for download and installation. This is one our largest releases on record since we began in 2012. We've added 1000's of lines of new code in the form of supporting a large range of languages. We've massively increased the number of language translations across the entire Menu and Sub-Menu system, by adding support for 22 Languages. We had the time to take on a task of this magnitude so we used it completely. If you speak a language other than English, we hope you enjoy a vastly improved and a more complete Linux Lite. Changes: Support for 22 new Languages added: Afrikaans, Arabic, Chinese - Simplified, Croatian, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Hebrew, Hindi, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Portuguese - Brazilian, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Sweden, Ukranian." Additional details can be found in the project's release announcement.
Manjaro Linux 23.0
Philip Müller has announced the release of Manjaro Linux 23.0, a significant update of the project's rolling-release distribution featuring GNOME, KDE Plasma and Xfce editions. The new version brings GNOME 44, KDE Plasma 5.27 LTS and Xfce 4.18, together with a cutting-edge Linux kernel, version 6.5: "Manjaro 23.0 'Uranos' released. The GNOME edition has received several updates to GNOME 44 series. This includes a lot of fixes and polish when GNOME 44 originally was released in March 2023. GNOME's file chooser dialogs have only ever had a list view, which is great when you want to pick a file based on its name, but isn't so good when picking files based on their thumbnails. Over the years, GNOME users have therefore repeatedly requested that a grid view be added to the file chooser. This has been one of the most positively received changes in our history, so we are confident that people will like it added in this release cycle. The Plasma edition comes with the latest Plasma 5.27 LTS series and KDE Gear 23.08. It brings exciting new improvements to your desktop." Continue to the release announcement for further information.
Manjaro Linux 23.0 -- Running the GNOME desktop
(full image size: 2.485MB, resolution: 2560x1600 pixels)
Zenwalk GNU Linux
Zenwalk GNU Linux is a Slackware-based distribution that strives to be fast and streamlined with a focus on desktop usage. The project maintains a rolling release branch which has been updated to provide fresh desktop software and libraries. The release announcement reads: "Zenwalk Current is the rolling release of Zenwalk GNU Linux. Current status seems stable enough for an ISO to be published, so here we go. As usual this edition provides a complete package rebuild from upstream Slackware and Zenwalk specific packages. The desktop has been updated to use latest Adwaita themes featuring a unified look for GTK4, GTK3, GTK2 and Qt applications. On application side, this release introduces Syncthing for realtime folder synchronization with any device from Linux, Android to IOS and Windows (think about it as an open source private OneDrive). The desktop is built upon the latest stable XFCE environment with the one of a kind original 'dock centric' Zenwalk layout. Flatpak package management is installed by default and ready to use. Zenwalk aims to be a best of breed media OS. Several new applications and media frameworks have been added : Navidrome Music Server, Jellyfin Media Center (just type 'netpkg jellyfin'), Lollypop Music Player, Rygel DLNA Server, ... PipeWire is the default sound system, completely replacing PulseAudio."
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,904
- Total data uploaded: 43.6TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Does a distribution's traditional package manager matter to you?
In the earlier years of Linux developer there were often debates, sometimes heated, about whether RPM or Deb packages and package management tools were superior. Over time, as more traditional package managers have been developed and existing ones have matured, fewer people seem to worry about whether they are using APT, DNF, Zypper, pacman, or another package manager to handle their distribution's packages.
This week we would like to know if you select which distribution you run based on its package manager? Do you have a preferred package manager? Let us known in the comments.
You can see the results of our previous poll on running operating systems based on Hurd in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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Do you select your distro based on its package manager?
| Yes - the package manager is a key factor: | 592 (36%) |
| Sometimes - the package manager is one consideration/tie-breaker: | 581 (36%) |
| No - the package manager is not a consideration: | 450 (28%) |
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| Website News |
New projects added to database
Relianoid
Relianoid is a Debian-based Linux distribution for load balancing. The distribution offers a load balancing oriented operating system for testing, development, and quality assurance environments. Relianoid is available in Community (free of cost) and Enterprise editions.
CROWZ
CROWZ is a lightweight, Devuan-based Linux distribution. The project offers three graphical window managers: Openbox, Fluxbox, and JWM. CROWZ can be run from live media or installed to a hard drive using the Calamares system installer.
CROWZ 5.0 -- Running the Openbox window manager
(full image size: 45kB, resolution: 1368x768 pixels)
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Mauna Linux. Mauna Linux is a Linux distribution based on Debian's Testing branch. The project is available in three desktop flavours: Cinnamon, MATE, and LXQt.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 18 September 2023. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Weekly Archive and Article Search pages. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Package managers (by Andy Prough on 2023-09-11 01:11:14 GMT from Switzerland)
I thought I did not select distros based on package managers, but after thinking about it I realized I do avoid distros with dnf and with pacman due to various instances of instability I've experienced.
I'm very comfortable with apt. The Debian-based distros I've used have been very reliable and stable (mostly antiX and Trisquel).
I especially would not use a distro that relies on Flatpak or Snap for its packages.
2 • Package manager (by Saleem Khan on 2023-09-11 01:57:46 GMT from Pakistan)
Yes , pacman is the key package manager that will make me choose a distribution if ever . Pacman is a very flexible package manager and I find it very useful to handle in dealing with packages .
3 • Package Managers & Distro Selection (by Simon Plaistowe on 2023-09-11 02:05:33 GMT from New Zealand)
Mostly I tend towards apt and often I need to use at least one PPA so need to choose Ubuntu-based distros. Important for workstations but not so much for servers.
4 • Package manager (by Friar Tux on 2023-09-11 02:09:26 GMT from Canada)
I voted yes it does matter. My top, number one is APT and DEB. I have never had issues with these. All the others have given me trouble. Some have only partially installed stuff, some have halted part way through, and some have installed software but clicking on the new icon does nothing. (It says its installed, I can see it's installed, but the app/program will not load.)
However, having said all that, Synaptic Package Manager has never failed me, no matter what distro it is on.
5 • SDESK WHY (by BustyBillsBobs&Bits on 2023-09-11 02:34:09 GMT from Australia)
Thanks for the review of SDesk.
I looked on their website for more information and found none as to what the purpose of this distro is, what niche it is supposed to fill other than a vanity project by Steve, who has his name in the domain LOL.
Vanity distros are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
6 • Package managers (by Jyrki on 2023-09-11 03:41:02 GMT from Czechia)
I avoid distros with or previously based on RPM, no matter how they deal with their packages. Apt based distros are not my favourite but I can live with them. And I strongly prefer pacman based distros
7 • Does the package manager matter? (by nsp0323 on 2023-09-11 04:32:54 GMT from Sweden)
Maybe but, I never come that far when choosing which system to install. There're other important factors that take over.
1) Does it use systemd? If yes, no thanks.
2) Does it offer a base install without any desktop? If no, no thanks.
I have a few more demands on the list but, at this point, I'm already down to a very limited number of options, as to what Linux distros I might consider.
8 • package manager (by Patrick on 2023-09-11 06:25:55 GMT from Luxembourg)
Yes, package managers matter. Personally my best experience has been with debian apt and Alpine apk. Of course it's not just the format, but also the quality of the distro itself. It's not impossible to mess up a system with apt I guess.
Regarding @7, I think that systemd or a non-desktop install is a completely different subject - it depends on the use case. If you target servers, maybe network equipment, these criteria can matter. For a long-running web server though, systemd hasn't been a problem for me. A computer destined to be a desktop without a desktop? Well.
But package management is a universal criteria, because when it messes your system up, you're in for a few hours of learning things you might have wanted to ignore, if you succeed at all. Package management is complicated, but unless you're into that stuff, you just want it to work.
9 • Portable package managers (by SkyrGobbler on 2023-09-11 06:31:34 GMT from France)
I do tend to pick a distribution based on the package manager. Having said that, my preference (Nix or Guix) are portable and installable on other distros so if I have hardware which really struggles to work with NixOS or GuixSD then I’ll take a "working" distro, ignore the base package manager apart from security updates, and continue to use what I like :)
I can’t recommend Nix package manager enough!
10 • Package manager (by Borgio3 on 2023-09-11 07:44:25 GMT from Italy)
As i'm a BSD user, there are no snap, flat, app manager, so pkg is the only way to install software on the system. It's a rock solid and affective package manager, so i easily use it.
11 • package manager (by Kazlu on 2023-09-11 08:50:26 GMT from France)
I am surprised at the number of people for whom package manager is not only important, but a factor when choosing a distro. Not that I am criticising, good for you as long as you find something that fits your needs! It's actually interesting to read your arguments.
For me, it does not matter. When I choose a distro, my main criterion are supported lifetime, stability VS features compromise, performance, popularity of the base system (therefore likelihood of finding and fixing security holes fast), etc. I consider the package manager to be a part of the "stability VS features" criterion, but I ultimately trust the distro creators to pick the one that is the most adapted to reach their goals. As long as it works, I will go with whatever the distro creators have picked. I don't use the command line much anyway, I just need to know the commands to install/remove a package and update the system so that I can dot it via comand line if necessary, that's all.
As a side note, I would like to join #9 SkyrGobbler mentioning Nix. Although I do not use it a lot, on paper it is brilliant and I don't understand why it does not get more light when Flatpak/Snap are getting so popular.
12 • Do you select your distro based on its package manager? (by Devlin7 on 2023-09-11 09:22:47 GMT from New Zealand)
I am not sure it is the package manager so much, more the availabilty of packages. They all install, remove, update in some command form or another. The issue for me is sometimes a supplier only provides a software or driver in DEB or RPM. Will I be able to install it with cards, pacman, xbps-install etc...The inability to install something has prevented me from using some amazing distros
13 • Package manager (by PenguinCroatia on 2023-09-11 09:56:45 GMT from Croatia)
Package manager is the decisive factor. I want my distro to support flatpak out of the box and not use outdated software versions from the repos. Flatpaks are the best thing that happened to linux since KDE and they should be universally accepted
14 • Package manager (by grraf on 2023-09-11 11:07:31 GMT from Romania)
I had to deal plenty of times in the past with apt/rpm to last me a long time nowadays i value above all the sanity and reliability of pacman to the point where i don't even bother considering a distro unless it allows me to use it...
The whole multiple PPAs , flats and snaps to fill in the gaps of outdated distros while also adding pointless bloat is not an acceptable trade off for myself respect&sanity.
While most will start to scream: 'where is muh stability' I find rolling distros with pamac to be bloat&hassle free as long as unofficial packages are rarely used while jumping from one stable kernel branch to another OR running one stable kernel&one bleeding edge one(just in case smth goes south ya still got yr good ole stable kernel to fall back to). I've used arch for the past 8years and only had to to a fresh reinstall once(only because I recently bought a new PC mind you)
15 • for me, Deb and APT are the best options.... (by Torsten on 2023-09-11 11:20:20 GMT from Germany)
Myself, I have Debian and for me, ATP and Deb. are totally enough and important. Flatpak (sometimes) is ok, too, but I prefer a real installation package (APT or Deb). Indeed, I avoid the crappy Snap. No way! Myself, I do not need the devil on my system. ;-)
16 • Package manager - Solus (by WhiteWolf on 2023-09-11 11:36:10 GMT from Poland)
Yes, best one atm is eopkg from Solus. Had issues with apt or dnf, never with eopkg.
17 • Package Manager (by dragonmouth on 2023-09-11 11:47:29 GMT from United States)
I do not choose a distro based on the package manager. Over the years I have used mostly Debian-based distros so the package manager, APT, has basically picked itself. However, I do not use APT. I use Synaptic which, IMO, is the most complete Package Manager in Linux.
18 • APT (by Dino on 2023-09-11 12:45:23 GMT from Denmark)
Package manager is quite import for me, so one of the reasons why I use Debian is APT and its management of .deb packages. The other reasons are stability, consistency, and reliability.
19 • Package Manager (by Chris Marker on 2023-09-11 13:15:39 GMT from Italy)
On the main computer I use Kubuntu LTS and APT (for general stability reasons), on the secondary computer I use Fedora, DNF and Dnfdragora (it fully adheres to the Linux Standard Base). Between APT and RPM I prefer RPM. I have little confidence in all other formats and package managers.
20 • Of DEB's and APT's... (by tom joad on 2023-09-11 13:42:44 GMT from Germany)
I immediately said yes after reading the question. It way matters to me. But it is not an issue as I rarely stray from the Debian branch of Linux. So for me it is APT, Deb and synaptic.
A few years ago I tried out Slackware just for grins. That was one wasted afternoon. I wiped everything and went back to some part of the Debian branch.
As they say, 'If it ain't broke...."
21 • in re pkg mgrs (by grindstone on 2023-09-11 14:20:47 GMT from United States)
Yeah, at this point (20-some in as a "user"), the pkg base is the driver and apt is the tool for me. Pains me to say it as someone who dearly loved (and still/always respects) slackware, but the package-based fear-mongering years are long-behind people. I've had to use dselect maybe twice...maybe. No snaps, no flatpak--ever. I have to build one old application that's not even supposed to be alive anymore (nut-nutrition), and that's it. The old ways to stay out of trouble are still valid and it's incredibly valuable to learn lower-level along the way, but it's not a prerequisite anymore to just be "a user" if you don't treat your machine like a serviceperson on leave in a red light district. My sincere gratitude to all who develop and support this wonderful world!
22 • Package managers (by kc1di on 2023-09-11 14:21:12 GMT from United States)
Over the years I have use about every package management system linux has to offer. I always seem to come back to apt/dpkg/synaptic. I have nothing against RPM's but find I like the variety and completeness of Apt. and the Debian system. JMHO. I don't always choose a distro though based upon packaging system but more on what available with it.
Which ever is you personal favorite. enjoy the journey :)
23 • GNOME (by James on 2023-09-11 14:33:22 GMT from United States)
Why does the community keep putting up with GNOME's crap? They routinely remove features, break extensions, etc. What good is a desktop environment that basically requires extensions to function? Not to mention that you should never need a tweak tool to get a battery percentage to show or minimize and maximize window buttons on windows.
24 • Package manager and GNOME (by Marc Visscher on 2023-09-11 16:29:01 GMT from Netherlands)
Concerning the package manager and if it matter which one to use: No... it doesn't matter for me. As long it's Linux, it's fine. And besides: I own so much laptops and computers (14 in total), that I run them all together. I like APT, but also Pacman and DMF. They all work fine and do the job as it supposed to. As long as it's not complicated or hard to handle, I have no problem with which package manager runs with the system. I ALWAYS prefer it over installing .exe files on a particular system.
About GNOME: recently I discovered GNOME in Fedora 37 (now 38). It works well for me now. But there were times I avoided GNOME because of the bad vibes around the desktop environment and the arrogancy of the developers towards the userbase. It seems like the GNOME developers stept into that same boat again. It even more looks like they really try to do their best to scare everybody away from the GNOME desktop. I personally don't use extensions in GNOME because I already suspected an unusual move at "a" next release. And the time is now, it seems...
25 • Package managers (by Jyrki on 2023-09-11 17:21:09 GMT from Czechia)
in my first post I have not mentioned things like Flatpak, because they are so foreign to me, I have forgotten they exist. Flatpak, snap, appimage - these are on the same level with RPM to me
26 • Package manager (by Olaf Vogler on 2023-09-11 17:22:24 GMT from Netherlands)
For me, the package manager is crucial: I only choose distros that use APT or RPM (with a slight preference for RPM).
27 • @23 Janes: (by dragonmouth on 2023-09-11 18:52:16 GMT from United States)
"Why does the community keep putting up with GNOME's crap?"
For the same reason(s) a different community puts up with Redmond crap.
28 • Gloomy Gnome (by Hank on 2023-09-11 18:54:31 GMT from Poland)
Yet another alienating step from Gnome IBM Red Hat.
They can flush their bloated and user disrespecting deskcrap effluent down to where the poo goes,the annals of time.
29 • Package Manager (by Mike W on 2023-09-11 19:30:37 GMT from United States)
I'm an experienced Linux desktop user. While the package manager is a consideration, the priority for me is being able to easily install the packages I want to install. "Easily" means that my distro of choice packages the software I need in their repositories so I can quickly find and install it. The package manager just needs to work, in that case.
In most cases, I'd be just as happy with Synaptic, which is the graphical package manager I first used, versus some of the newer graphical package managers.
30 • Package Manager (by Joe M on 2023-09-11 20:16:51 GMT from Portugal)
I prefer APT and stick with Debian based Distros.
But the repositories are as important.
31 • Package Manager (by Vukota on 2023-09-11 21:17:45 GMT from Serbia)
I did vote it is a factor, but I am fine as long as packages are secure, packaging system enforces good dependency management and working with packages is not too slow. Also it is a plus if packages allow proper mixing different version/sources/repositories. Some of these things is up to a maintainers, but packaging system can help.
32 • Package management (by Ted H in Minnesota on 2023-09-12 01:07:28 GMT from United States)
I only use linux OS's that use Synaptic.
I have never had any luck with RPM - each time I have used it, as I recall, it told me that it needed to be updated or somesuch, and then it didn't allow me to do that. Out in the Trash can.
33 • Package Manager (by Vinfall on 2023-09-12 01:25:17 GMT from Hong Kong)
To me package manager seems to be highly tied to the ecosystem of a distro. It's not possible to pick distro from that besides some general ones like APT, Pacman, Alpine PKG or RPM.
Yeah, package managers share most of the functions but they do differ in accordance with the "distro philosophy". This is something relying on external resources other than packaging per se.
Zypper (SUSE) looks just like APT to me, emerge (Gentoo) is a rolling nightmare, xbps (Void),nix and maybe Guix are fantastic, slackpkg (Slackware) is illuminating yet kinda frustrating to start with, swupd (Clear Linux OS) is promising... the list goes longer and longer during my endeavor to explore every other distro. It's really hard to separate the "distro philosophy" and package manager apart IMHO.
34 • Package Managers and distros (by Arnold on 2023-09-12 05:47:52 GMT from New Zealand)
I'm a big fan of the apt/synaptic package managers in the Debian branch of distros. Of late this is getting cluttered by Snaps and Flatpaks. I'm about to give the freshly released Mint LMDE 6 beta a spin.
Also I have tried many distros over many years - so have seen and tried many other package managers. Going beyond the always-way-behind Debian family, I landed in Arch country with Manjaro. So that means pacman, pamac and yay. Those are really solid.
My bone to pick though on the Arch branch, is that many packages you read about and would like to try are just not available, or maybe in the AUR.. and then refuse to build about half the time. As a user (not a full-time deep-dive developer, fluent in all 20+ languages involved across these packages), I simply don't have the resources to debug a make file for days on end.
For me, as many others here have written, it is about what apps can I get which I need to do my tasks. The mechanics of how we get there are secondary, but should be user friendly.
35 • Package Manager (by FARHAAD 1992 on 2023-09-12 06:51:07 GMT from Iran)
I use only RPM-based distros because the .rpm file format is the baseline package format of the Linux Standard Base, also RPM and DNF are superior over Deb and APT in technical terms.
36 • Do you select your distro based on its package manager? (by JIm on 2023-09-12 11:34:11 GMT from United States)
I started with Debian and apt, am old and have no desire to learn a new package manager and associated commands, so will stick with an apt base package manager. The one exception I might try (but probably won't) would be PC Linux, while not apt has synaptic available for package management.
37 • Package Managers (by Otis on 2023-09-12 14:11:29 GMT from United States)
Got me to thinking. Like @1 post by Andy Prough I at first thought that the package manager set up was not relevant, but then realized after a bit that shying away from RedHat/Fedora and various other distros was based on myriad reasons one of which was not being able to warm up to yum and all that it entails.
Not that there is anything truly wrong with RPM based PMs functionally, just that I feel better working with APT and a few others. My main Linux disto is MX, so, yeah the Debian based systems seem to have won me over as time and distros went by over the years.
38 • Package Manager (by Aurel Serban on 2023-09-12 15:15:21 GMT from Romania)
Pure Arch Linux is the best distro, firstly due to its huge documentation. Secondly, using pacman( package manager ), the user is able to know instantly all about her/his machine and the state of the installed software. The base repository and the Arch User Repository (AUR) offer a large software variety that recommend Arch Linux as one of the best Linux distributions.
39 • Gnome 45 (by Justin on 2023-09-13 17:27:03 GMT from United States)
If you read the blog post, this is not a case of Gnome Developers randomly doing something. They are catching up to an industry standard from 2015 that their own JS engine didn't support until 2021.
It's a little like complaining about EOL of Python 2. It was announced to end in 2015 and then was moved to 2020 to accommodate code migration. Despite years of warning, enterprises are still migrating Python 2 code in 2023, and old projects that had no maintainer are dying off. Such is the lifecycle of anything.
The only difference here might have been more warning than "next release extensions will stop working, get on it!" Since work presumably started in 2021, warning/reminding people of this coming would have been more welcome. Their reputation for screwing over non-Gnome developers, especially people who do not maintain their stuff as a full-time job, certainly makes the headline look worse.
I'm not a Gnome apologist (I disagree with most of what they do), but in this single instance, it looks like they were trying to make changes that will help developers of those extensions and bring development in line with modern industry practice. It's probably unfair to judge them too harshly for this one.
40 • On package manager (by Andre Gompel on 2023-09-15 12:05:46 GMT from Poland)
I have used only a few, apt, yum/dnf, zypper..
DNF: The one I know the best, on Fedora it is excellent, features rich, reliable... only on the CLI (command line interface), its GUI is just junk (soory!) and should be removed or enirely redesigned...but why not have a common RPM package manager and fully compatible RPM packages across RPM supporting distros (OpenSuse, Fedora/Redhat/Mandriva, more ?)
The OpenSuse Yast (zypper GUI front-end) is pretty good, and why not make it available on Fedora etc...?
Missing: an option to remove extra files when removing a package (Debian allows this),
DEB: works well, miss some of the features I like in RPM based, like delta-rpms (great!) and a few more... APT is an able and easy to use package manager.
The others, I don't know...
Number of Comments: 40
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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