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1 • MX 23 (by brad on 2023-08-14 00:42:08 GMT from United States)
One thing that was not mentioned in the review (and may have been out of scope for the review) was the fact that MX 23 had to go through three RC iterations:
"The main change with RC2 from RC1 is an updated installer, to fix an issue with forced formatting of ESP paritions."
and
"Since RC1 was only available for 1 day, and RC2 was still pretty rocky with installer issues, we are doing a third Release Candidate (RC3)."
I would never advocate using release candidates in a "production" environment, but I don't recall previous MX versions having this many issues. I had to wait longer than usual to get the "final" MX 23, and use the live version on a USB stick (I usually have this stick available to fix issues with other distros or Windows, but the issue noted above caused me quite a bit of heartache (I believe the "bad boy" was actually MX21.3)
2 • MX Tools (by brad on 2023-08-14 00:49:03 GMT from United States)
Excuse my bad form, but I must agree that MX Tools is a great application, and the reason that I have a live MX USB stick.
3 • centering windows (by Jay on 2023-08-14 01:12:06 GMT from South Africa)
When I saw this week's question, I had to laugh; I've been a tiler for years. It's possible to center (floating) panes, with a tiling Window Manager; you just have to specify that [floating] choice in advance (as you would with any other WM).
4 • MX 23 and window positions in XFCE (by Pumpino on 2023-08-14 01:50:29 GMT from Australia)
I typically use Cinnamon with Manjaro and Mint. However, I decided to try MX with XFCE on the weekend. I've typically avoided it due to not liking outdated packages, but Debian stable is fresh and I'm more interested in having a stable base rather than an onslaught of updates like in Manjaro
The main apps I use actually have repos provided by the devs - OnlyOffice, Vivaldi and SyncThing, while Deadbeef and rEFInd always have the latest DEBs on their websites. It means that I don't have to receive updates to every single package in order to receive updates for a handful of apps I use.
As for having windows centered in XFCE, it's best to set the slider to "Large" as well, otherwise some windows aren't centered.
5 • Distrowatch salesmanship about MX LINUX (by Greg Zeng on 2023-08-14 02:15:19 GMT from Australia)
Examining the most underused part of Distrowatch, the 'Page Hit Ranking'. From 2019 and the next eight (8) time sections after this, MX LINUX defeats all other Linux operating systems, as far as the users of Distrowatch are curious about Linux operating systems.
Until this favouritism, Mint Linux was first, but remains usually in the top five 'Runner Up' systems. My preference is Mint, rather than the enthusiast's tweaks offered by Mx Linux. Debian means not using the PPA update system offered by using Ubuntu-base. Most Linux operating systems now can offer any or all of Snap, Flatpak or Appimage. These last three Linux container systems have unique features not available to the other two.
System administrators dealing with multiple computer systems may need to check the Distrowatch 'Page Hit Ranking'. It identifies the losing and the emerging operating systems fairly accurately. The upstream producers (Red Hat, Debian & Ubuntu) may monitor experimental innovations started by the derivative downstream producers. This identifies the strengths and shortcomings from the upstream producers. Some (most?) users of Landscape desktops might prefer the vertical top and bottom to be free of taskbars, so the left-margin for the taskbar is preferred, as used by default by Mx Linux and other downstream productions.
6 • MX Tools (by JeffC on 2023-08-14 02:19:45 GMT from United States)
Some of the tools not mentioned in the review are what I consider their best:
The Live USB with persistence, which allows you to customize your install media before you install it on a computer and then use that media on all your computers if you want.
Update it, install packages, uninstall packages, change things around if you want; and only need to do it once.
7 • MX,Window Placement (by Albert on 2023-08-14 03:42:58 GMT from United States)
I very much like MX OS with most of its tweaks (I reposition the panel to its classic form) and its Tools (have the MX-23 “Libretto” installed on disk) and also like Linux Mint. They're both very stable.
As for window placement, I like to have the new windows centered.
8 • Tiling with DWM (by Andy Prough on 2023-08-14 04:37:12 GMT from United States)
The reason I use the DWM window manager is because it handles new window placement the way I prefer, by tiling each new window in a dynamic placement pattern, with the newest window taking up the majority of the screen from the left side. Windows can be moved around the screen or onto other screens or other 'tags' with very simple keyboard shortcuts. If you use programs with vim keybindings, such as the Luakit web browser, you can work most of the day without having to touch the mouse.
9 • Window position (by Friar Tux on 2023-08-14 04:44:07 GMT from Canada)
I voted "Mostly Overlapping" as, for me it doesn't really matter. I click on the panel to bring the window I need to the top. The only "issue" I have is the since the Orage Calendar went and isn't available I have been using the free version of Rainlendar as it has the same functionality, and takes up the same screen real estate as Orage. However, if I don't keep my windows a bit to the left Rainlendar tends to pop up over top of the window I'm working on. (Can't find anything in the preferences to stop this.)
Hey, I noticed that WindowMaker now has its own OS (Debian/Bookworm) attached to it. I tried it out and it seems great - for the hour I tried it. I do want to say, though, WindowMaker works quite well on my Mint/Cinnamon OS. I hear it does well on most distros as an alternative DE.
10 • Window placement (by Head_on_a_Stick on 2023-08-14 05:48:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Where's the option for GNOME's proposed new Mosaic layout? I haven't tried it yet but it's already my favourite :-)
11 • New application window (by eb on 2023-08-14 07:36:58 GMT from France)
No Desktop environment, only Windows managers (most often Fluxbox),
no stacking no tiling : 9 workspaces, one always maximized application per space,
no decoration, rich collection of keyboard shortcuts, almost never mouse !
12 • Window placing (by Hank on 2023-08-14 08:07:58 GMT from Poland)
Easy in my preferred desktop, ICEWM to set opening in fixed position size and on which virtual desktop.
LibreOffice is slightly more difficult to tame as far as size and position goes, it requires - --norestore start option
for reliability. That can be a disadvantage so I just set to start on a fixed virtual desktop,I use 6 but more or less is easy to adjust.
Regarding Post from Greg Zeng, favouritism and Salesmanship about MX Linux.
Before moving to my present Choices, antiX and MX I used Mint, until it went off, an update broke systems of users I supported and in some cases a reinstall failed. I will not go back.
MX needed 3 Betas to be release ready, seems that approach is way better than alienating users and supporters. MX is no 1 for a reason.
Reliability. i have had to use AHS Version fpr Ryzen 8 core system, an important feature of the distro, cater for as many users as possible, on top while adding extra, near unique tool set.
13 • No.2 (by Sondar on 2023-08-14 08:24:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
...and MX Tools has Boot Repair and Boot Re-install. Priceless for folks who fiddle a lot between different machines and back-up/move whole systems between Hdisks, SSDs and USB sticks.
14 • Oracle ...providing open and free Enterprise ... source code (by Anamezon on 2023-08-14 08:29:59 GMT from Finland)
It hurts when you are on the receiving end of a bad deal, eh Oracle? What's the matter with being so benevolent to the FLOSS community now, the decision makers that closed OpenSolaris no longer on your payroll...?
15 • Derived distribution stability (by Alexandru on 2023-08-14 09:46:40 GMT from Romania)
This comment does not target MX Linux particularly, but rather all derived distributions. Disclaimer: I never use MX Linux and cannot say anything good or bad about it. However, I permanently use Debian in the last 19 years.
"MX Linux does a great job of presenting the user with all the benefits of Debian's Stable branch (long-term support, stable packages, large repositories of software, and great hardware support) while improving on the experience. On top of Debian's solid base, MX has added a faster, more user friendly system installer, enough applications to cover a wide range of use cases without overly crowding the application menu, and provided lots of friendly tools and documentation."
Please, understand that the "stability" is not measured application-wide. The stability means also (more often) as capability to use software together with each other. If Application A requires a Library X of version Y and Application B requires Library X version Z (given Library X from version Y to Z made some incompatible changes), you can install either Application A with Library X version Y or Application B with Library X version Z, not both. This is because Library X version Y conflicts with Library X version Z.
When some derived distribution takes "stable package base of Debian and adds" more user-friendly applications (e.g. MX Tools, which do not exist in plain Debian), this particular application needs to be tested together with 50,000 of other packages. Debian does this. Derived distribution rarely do this. It means, they tend to add more applications and decrease overall stability.
Practically this means that if Application A and Application B cannot be used together, I can submit a bug to Debian and the conflict will be solved soon. However, if the same bug is submitted to some derived distribution, it is rarely treated as this distribution's bug, rather as its parent's (i.e. Debian) problem, which it is not if the conflicting application is not in Debian. Debian huge team maintains not only individual packages, but rather the whole system operation.
I personally faced such problems dozens of times with derived distributions each time I install 20 or so not very often used applications. Such problems rarely arise during review of some distribution, but they influence the taste of using Linux. This is why I always use Debian and suggest my friends to not use child distributions.
16 • Firefox updates on MX Linux (by a on 2023-08-14 10:12:37 GMT from France)
A quick web search hasn’t found a clear answer on this question: how does MX handle Firefox updates (or other web browsers)? I’m afraid the Debian stable base means that by default old Firefox versions are installed? Is there an easy way for new Linux users to get an up-to-date version?
(I don’t need a detailed explanation, I’m familiar with solutions like downloading a package directly from the devs web site, or using AppImage/snap/flatpak; just wondering what the experience is like for a "noob" Linux user switching from Windows, to know if recommending MX to a friend is a good idea.)
17 • MX Linux Lynis and Rkhunter (by jason on 2023-08-14 10:46:49 GMT from Australia)
After installing and testing out MX Linux Xfce and the Kde spin, I would suggest anyone who has this installed to install 2 extra packages " lynis and rkhunter". Run them both and see what you think, I couldn't get this of my machine quick enough....hmmmm
18 • @16 MX Firefox current (by Mr. Moto on 2023-08-14 10:53:59 GMT from Japan)
I'm running MX 21, no changes from original install. I runs Firefox 116.02, which is the current version. On an Ubuntu derivative I'm running a flatpak. There's also a current .deb version available for download for Debian.
19 • @16 MX Firefox updates (by puck on 2023-08-14 11:17:25 GMT from Germany)
Updates will come through your package manager. Check for updates regularly and the newest version will be offered ...
20 • MX and flatpaks (by Charlie Chan on 2023-08-14 12:02:54 GMT from Italy)
"There is a lot of useful functionality packed into the MX Tools collection, particularly the custom package installer which works across multiple repositories (including backports) and portable packages (Flatpaks)." I don't like backports (stability of the o.s.) and Flatpaks (slow and often broken): they are an added disvalue for every distro. Long live debian/trisquel and deb packages!
21 • Firefox Updates (by Bill W on 2023-08-14 12:08:11 GMT from United States)
@16 Stable doesn't mean insecure. Debian (and its downstream distros) do a great job getting point releases/security updates out. It's major updates it might hold off on.
22 • MX use + Firefox update (by Nathan on 2023-08-14 12:32:09 GMT from United States)
Currently using MX 23 (KDE on laptop, XFCE on desktop and Fluxbox on distro hopping desktop.
I always wait for the final release of each version. The Alpha ans Beta releases are there to find
the bugs and MX does a good job on this. I'm getting to like MX's take on Fluxbox after being mainly
an XFCE user.
Even though I distro hop as new things come out, MX has been my mainstay since version 16.
I am currently looking at Openbox as a curiousity as well as installing something on an old
Chromebook, possibly Bodhi Linux.
Firefox and also Chromium are updated by the MX update process. And yes, the main stream
version of Firefox is updated. I have not used the ESR version while on MX.
23 • @10 - Gnome Mosaic tiling (by Andy Prough on 2023-08-14 14:11:00 GMT from United States)
> "Where's the option for GNOME's proposed new Mosaic layout? I haven't tried it yet but it's already my favourite :-) "
From what I've read, Mosaic will be mostly tiling by mouse placement. Which sounds like an extension of M$ Windows 'tiling' concept.
24 • Firefox updates on MX Linux (by Albert on 2023-08-14 15:51:21 GMT from United States)
@16 -a. I can't really understand the situation that you present here since if you download MX and update it afterwads you will have the latest version of Firefox. You don't need to resort to any other special method in order to achieve this, simply just update the system and there you will have it: the latest version of the FF browser.
I've just checked this as I'm now writing this comment from MX 23 OS -the AHS one.
25 • FF on MX and Mint... (by Someguy on 2023-08-14 16:20:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
...has become something of an issue with bloat as well as needing constant resets with new versions which is time consuming and not always intuitive. Wrong and/or inadequate setting causes gross intrusions, most by 3rd party sponsors, etc. Strongly disapprove of paid-for interjections and surreptitious attempted advertising/data collection. Used to like Opera but isn't available for all distros. Advice welcomed.
26 • @25 - Firefox bloat, ads, data collection (by Andy Prough on 2023-08-14 17:55:04 GMT from United States)
You might want to give the Pale Moon browser a look. Seems to resolve most of those concerns for me.
27 • Options to replace firefox (by OldBones on 2023-08-14 17:59:45 GMT from Poland)
Both LibreWolf and UngoogledChromium are a major improvement over mozillas dirty tricks department browser experience. Both have been intensively audited, i started to use after GHacks gave positive review. Only caveat is that at times updates are slower than the big projects. That does not though imply that all security issues are relevant for derivatives.
28 • @25 (by Chris Whelan on 2023-08-14 18:12:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
Opera is available for MX Linux from the Package Installer.
29 • Window placement (by Jeff P. on 2023-08-14 18:41:50 GMT from United States)
Having more than one application visible on the screen at the same time never really made sense to me. There are rare exceptions, but for the most part I prefer whatever window I am currently working in to occupy the entire workspace (aka "maximized"). Other than a taskbar at the top and a narrow system status bar at the bottom, I prefer as few on-screen distractions as possible.
On a somewhat related note, I really wish DistroWatch Weekly supported "reader mode" to get all those annoying sidebars out of the way. My vision is not so great so I like to use very large fonts and I really don't need a list of past issues taking up space while I'm trying to focus on this week's presentation.
30 • MX linux (by qwerty123 on 2023-08-14 18:43:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
I found that MX was too fussy a distro. Rather like Voyager, MX throws the kitchen sink into the mix, confusing users. After a while these flashy add-ons are tiring. Stick to a basic Debian distro using command line utilities as God intended!
31 • @25 (by Cheker on 2023-08-14 18:57:37 GMT from Portugal)
The Opera you remember fondly doesnt exist anymore. Opera now is just another Chromium, with a meh reputation I should add.
32 • Window placement (by buckyogi on 2023-08-14 19:37:50 GMT from United States)
All windows maximized, alt-tab through them. KDE Plasma allows finely-grained customization of the task switcher, which I'm sure I'll stop tinkering with by the end of the decade.
33 • New WIndows (by Tux Raider on 2023-08-14 20:06:07 GMT from United States)
i like new windows to be either centered or maximized, (mostly maximized) since most Linux desktops and window managers have multiple virtual desktops to switch around in i like maximized so i can jump from app to app via multiple virtual desktops
34 • MX (by Ken Harbit on 2023-08-14 20:10:41 GMT from United States)
I've been using MX KDE since number 19. I always add lots of games, office packages, several browsers, and all the KDE stuff. I've never had a problem, no interference between packages and no problems with working side by side with windows. I'll grant you that the files in Debian Stable branch might be older than Ubuntu or Fedora, but I've never been wanting anything that MX didn't have for my day to day document creating, webpage managing, game playing with Utube playing my tunes.
35 • @29 DW reader mode (by Morton on 2023-08-14 20:19:00 GMT from Czechia)
>"I really wish DistroWatch Weekly supported "reader mode" to get all those annoying sidebars out of the way"
You will get convinient layout using 'Mobile Site" link at the top of the page or just enter this address: distrowatch.com/index-mobile.php?mobile=1
36 • @17 MX Linux Lynis and Rkhunter (by jason on 2023-08-14 10:46:49 GMT from Austra (by Pumpino on 2023-08-14 20:49:16 GMT from Australia)
What exactly did lynis and rkhunter find on your MX system?
37 • @17 MX Linux Lynis and Rkhunter (by jason on 2023-08-14 10:46:49 GMT from Austra (by Pumpino on 2023-08-14 20:56:32 GMT from Australia)
My MX system, which I only installed two days ago:
Suspect files: 1
Possible rootkits: 5
Rootkit names : xorddos component
What do I make of this?!
38 • @37 (by Cheker on 2023-08-14 23:55:21 GMT from Portugal)
"What do I make of this?! "
Nothing. rkhunter comes configured expecting files in such a way that it has false positives even on clean installations for several distros. Now I don't particularly care for MX, but I don't believe for a second it comes with rootkits.
# rkhunter --propupd
Creates a new baseline, basically tells rkhunter "treat what the system is currently like as the normal"
39 • Sorry for the double post (by Cheker on 2023-08-15 00:00:20 GMT from Portugal)
Forgot to go into lynis, but lynis comes with very hardened presets, so you're going to get a lot of hits for "incorrect settings" if you run it on a fresh install of a day-to-day desktop system. Of course, this doesn't mean you're gonna get hacked tomorrow, normal users like you and me don't really need most of the hardened settings that lynis suggests.
40 • @17 lynis and rkhunter (by brad on 2023-08-15 00:01:07 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the tip - my Manjaro system lists 4 suspected files and 0 rootkits - the suspect files revolve around the use of egrep/fgrep (which has been deprecated?)
Similar findings for lynis.
41 • @38 (by Pumpino on 2023-08-15 00:13:32 GMT from Australia)
Thanks for the reply. I ran rkhunter on the MX live flash drive and it identified 9 possible rootkits. Maybe it's nothing, but I posted in the MX forum for feedback.
https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=76622
42 • MX-23 (by kc1di on 2023-08-15 00:20:23 GMT from United States)
I use MX-23 KDE/plasma on my laptop and I like Jessie find it to be very stable and a good working Distro with everything I need at this point. Thanks Jessie for the review.
43 • RK Hunter produces many false positives.. (by OldBones on 2023-08-15 06:26:07 GMT from United States)
Regarding rk hunter on MX with 9 possible rootkits.
False positives are very common. The 9 mentioned are just that.
Pls see forum for details of investigation.
44 • @31 Cheker (by Someguy on 2023-08-15 06:56:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ah, yes, thanks for update. Now let's see - just who owns Chromium???!!! Time erodes my memory - wasn't FF's predecessor started in the '90's to avoid snooping & co.? Where next?
45 • Root Kits (by Jason on 2023-08-15 07:03:36 GMT from Australia)
@40 yes you can safely ignore those, @41 I read the answers to your question on the forum. If your still concerned go and run the same on other distro's (you can test them live to some degree) and you will see what I mean. Rkhunter does throw false positives, but you have to wonder why so many on one particular distro...is it because of all the extra packages and library's that are bundled in by default.
Lynis is an auditing tool and the reason I suspect people use it is for security, after all, I think that's one of the reasons were using Linux for? Opensuse Leap will score 88 out of the box, so I would consider it pretty hardened when others are in the low 60's.
Just remember this is 2023 there are hacks everywhere, and not just on windows, Linux is a target as well, especially now.
https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/guides/linux-hardening.html
46 • @45 (by Pumpino on 2023-08-15 07:29:19 GMT from Australia)
The suggestion that the result is due to it using sysvinit rather than systemd might be correct.
I found that I wanted to remove a lot of unnecessary programs in MX, while there were only a few in Debian XFCE. I'm also used to using systemd, so I might switch to Debian.
The main reason I chose MX was that I know it's updated XFCE to new major releases before Debian and Xubuntu in the past (4.18 in January, while Debian didn't see it until the release of 12.0 in June). However, major XFCE releases only happen every 2+ years, so it's not reason enough for me to use MX.
47 • Window placement (by crayola-eater on 2023-08-15 11:26:11 GMT from United States)
What I like, though it is extremely rare these days, is for programs to position themselves on opening based on their position the last time they were closed. That way when you position things for convenience or workflow, you only have to do it once.
For something new, put it in the middle. Notifications in the upper right corner (or at the system tray).
48 • MX Linux default disk space consumption (by disk_space_savior on 2023-08-15 18:29:54 GMT from India)
"A fresh install of MX Linux consumed 3.7GB of disk space..."
There has to be a mistake here Jesse. Did you mean 7.3GB?
49 • MX Linux default disk space consumption (by Jesse on 2023-08-15 19:07:58 GMT from Canada)
@48: "There has to be a mistake here Jesse. Did you mean 7.3GB?"
No, absolutely not. The 3.7GB number is correct. Even with all of my extra applications and services installed on top of the default system, MX Linux only took up around 5GB of space at the end of my trial.
7.3GB is almost twice the size of a fresh install of MX Linux.
50 • Higher RAM required for MX-23. Why? (by Gary on 2023-08-16 01:29:46 GMT from Canada)
From your review:
When signed into Xfce the system used about 770MB of RAM. This is on the high end for Xfce
Agreed! Certainly higher than previous versions.
Jesse, I'm curious to know your take on why this is?
51 • Higher RAM requirement (by Jesse on 2023-08-16 01:55:07 GMT from Canada)
@50: While 770MB of RAM is high by MX 19 standards, it's not that high by MX 21 standards. Here is the break down on RAM usage the last few versions on my machine:
MX 19: 400MB
MX 21: 700MB
MX 23: 770MB
I believe the jump from MX 19 to MX 21 was when the distribution upgraded from Xfce 4.16 to 4.18, which I suspect plays a factor. Looking back at the screenshots, I think there was a significant theme change too (and possibly a compositing change). Those would be my immediate guesses without diving into the nuts and bolts.
52 • Rkhunter (by Jason on 2023-08-16 05:45:38 GMT from Australia)
@43 Well why would there be "9" possible threats on a fresh box or live cd. I will repeat that "9" not 1 or 2 but "9", yer there all false positives hey....
53 • mx installed filesystem size (by dolphin oracle on 2023-08-16 12:36:30 GMT from United States)
@48: 3.7 is about right if utilizing a btrfs root partition, which utilizes zstd compression by default. the filesystem of an Xfce install should be around 6.5 GB or so on an ext4 partition, the fluxbox one is a little smaller, the KDE one a little bigger.
54 • Opera (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-16 12:37:24 GMT from Netherlands)
Opera should actually be avoided.
Currently, the best choices are Brave and Mullvad; ev. Librewolf.
The last one often 'lags' with updating.
Here some functionalities comparison:
https://privacytests.org/
55 • RAM usage (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-16 13:19:20 GMT from Netherlands)
It's nothing new that every new version of some OS uses more resources than the previous. Debian 7 LXDE used less than 50 MB of RAM, and today only X-Server is using double as much.
It's also nothing new that basically everything will affect RAM usage, including the GTK theme and even the desktop wallpaper.
However, the biggest issue arises because the vast majority of people have not the slightest idea of how memory management itself works, whether some distribution is implementing it or not, or whether they trust the results of a tool that ships with the distribution. That results in comparing apples and potatoes and beliefs like "Ubuntu 22.04 Gnome is heavier than MX 23 Xfce."
Zram, preload, etc.—who knows which distribution uses what and if? Higher memory consumption also does not necessarily mean lower performance.
Most tools that come with distribution lie—who can tell how much RAM this distribution uses?
Watch carefully—four different tools show four different results:
https://postimg.cc/ct6Wjhxf
How about this one?
https://postimg.cc/cgww37yM
Are you absolutely sure that the TWM distribution is lighter than the one with Xfce?
https://postimg.cc/7fs9wVxf
https://postimg.cc/XXN9qC1F
Well, yes, TWM does use fewer resources by itself, but the total usage of a distribution is more than the WM alone.
What many people like to forget when they compare Gnome and Xfce, for example, is that every icon on the Xfce task bar should be added to the total consumption of Xfce, and also that sophisticated functions that Gnome provides but Xfce lacks should be taken away from the equation in comparison with Gnome. Only Software or PackageKit can easily use 300–400 MB of RAM, global search another 100–150 MB, etc. Xfce is barebones. No auto-updates and upgrades, no advanced indexing and search functionalities, etc. What's missing doesn't consume—of course. On the other side, if one knows what consumes RAM and how much, one can also disable it and prevent it from auto-starting, if one doesn't need that particular functionality.
So, to bring it to the point: the only thing you would ever want to use is 'top' and the script linked beneath. That way, you get a good base for comparisons, as 'top' command and the terminal are always included, whichever distribution you might use.
https://www.shellhacks.com/find-top-processes-memory-usage-linux/
56 • MX Linux 23 (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-16 14:19:15 GMT from Netherlands)
I cannot see any good reason for installing MX Linux 23—all wrong here.
If I take a look at the resource consumption and compare it to Cinnamon and Gnome, they are about the same, but Cinnamon and Gnome look good. If I compare it to another Xfce, MX looks old.
https://postimg.cc/cKBvwfsf
And then comes usability. I can install Fedora Workstation, Mint, Salix, or Ubuntu, and I can start working. With MX, I have to start with reconfiguring because basically every preset, be it 'look and feel' or 'usability' is plain wrong.
That one click to open folders or auto-select items on mouseover... renders the system unusable. Just try to open a folder with 7000 images and select 70. As soon as the mouse comes over one thumbnail, it'll select that one and unselect all the others already selected.
Taskbar preconfiguration... left or bottom is not an issue here—left or bottom is a matter of personal preference or the use case—but, for example, an uncentered clock with a too tiny clock font, or the start menu that offers me shutdown instead of applications...
Yes, I know that the start menu is at the bottom, but it does not belong there; it belongs on top, where the green button is. We are reading from left to right and top to bottom, and the green button is at the beginning—in place of the start menu.
https://postimg.cc/MvfXtC66
Start-menu has a black icon on a black taskbar, but shutdown has a nicely visible green button with an arrow, and then, when it opens, applications first instead of categories?
The Xfce taskbar has been broken for years, and the only partially usable size without having to use CSS overrides is 41 pixels. Anything else will be either too tiny for most people or the icons on it will look even worse. This looks pretty old compared to the Ubuntu side panel.
Those are just some examples. Going from issue to issue, one would end up with a "so not" book.
Yes, I also know that most things are fixable with a few clicks, but there are two issues that come with this. First, one shouldn't need to fix a freshly installed OS before one can even start using it, and second, it's the job of those who make the distribution to ship with sane presets. Most people won't be able to easily fix it, or fix it at all, without searching the internet first.
I quickly rearranged the sidebar items, made some better visible start-menu button, fixed the clock legibility, and made some 30 more screenshots—that made MX 23 Xfce eat up all the RAM and die for good.
RIP MX 23.
57 • @15 stability of derivative distros (by Kazlu on 2023-08-16 15:34:39 GMT from France)
Your point is totally valid. I have been using MX for 5-6 years now and have never encountered such problem. But the more new packages you include, the higher the risk, indeed. I do not install a lot of extra software and I do not use the backports, that helps. Overall though, I have appreciated a lot the extras of MX, which made my digital life easier after a few years using plain Debian.
However, your point and my needs meet somewhere: Spiral Linux! Technically not a child distro but a Debian respin, which uses only plain Debian repos. That might be my next distro, whenever I need to change/upgrade my OS.
58 • @20 packages origin (by Kazlu on 2023-08-16 15:35:48 GMT from France)
"Long live debian/trisquel and deb packages! "
Of course, when a deb package is available in your distro's repos, there is no point looking anywhere else. The whole point is to try to find a way to get a package that is NOT in your distro's repos. Either because it has never been packaged, or because you need a newer version for a specific feature that would not justify installing a whole, more recent OS. All this is a matter of compromise: How bad do you need the feature? How bad do you want/need to keep your current OS? How much risk are you willing to take? How much performance cutoff are you ready to accept? The answers to those question will vary from one person to another, along with the chosen solutions.
59 • @25 Firefox (by Kazlu on 2023-08-16 15:37:33 GMT from France)
"FF on MX and Mint has become something of an issue with bloat as well as needing constant resets"
Agree with the bloat. Not with the need for resets. I have a collection of FF profiles that have never been reset in years of evolution of my digital life. Sometimes FF *suggests* to "refresh" itself by resetting the profile, but I simply decline. A new profile does not help with the bloat anyway, in my experience.
Every time I tried something else, I always ended up going back to Firefox *very* quickly. I could probably live with a Chromium based browser but Chromium has the same problems as Firefox, and then some due to its lineage. So, as long as FF is an option, it will remain my choice.
60 • @29 Window placement (by Kazlu on 2023-08-16 15:38:16 GMT from France)
Agreed. I, too, prefer having any window maximized. To the point where I tried once to set my window manager to always open windows as maximized. But then, every popup with only one line of text and a button, like the confirmation when permanently removing a file or the like, looks really weird and is actually disturbing, so I gave that up!
61 • @56 "sane" presets (by Kazlu on 2023-08-16 15:47:06 GMT from France)
Everything you mention is personal preference. I will not have the same, and other peple will have different preferences than the both of us. For example, I agree with you on the MX panel, which I find confusing in this layout. However, I prefer single click open/select on hover, if only because I have documents sorted in a very deep file tree and if I have to double click every time I want to enter a directory, considering the number of times I have to do it every day, my hand hurts very quickly. Besides, single click open is the default behaviour for iOS and Android and I see no one complaining that this renders the system unusable...
So, should I install MX, I would have to edit the panel. Should I install Mint, I would have to edit the file manager behaviour. Whatever the OS I am using, I will have some tweaks to do. And, well, that's normal, because I did not design those OSes! One cannot assume the OS designers should all have the same preferences as oneself. For that reason, I will not use such words as "this button belongs here". It is useful to have a standard layout and behaviour (read: like Windows or close) for beginner-oriented distros. MX is not one of them.
As far as I am concerned, I installed MX once 5-6 years ago, tweaked the panel the way I wanted, disabled conky and I was done. The longest part probably being adjusting the date/time exactly like I wanted, with 3 lines of text of a readable size on a vertical panel... To my knowledge, no distro does that, so, heh, that's for me. Funnily enough, Windows behaviour is very close to what I want here (and only here). Took me between 5 and 10 minutes overall. Every time I had to upgrade, I just preserved my /home directory, which allowed me to keep my config. Doing the setting once every 5 to 10 years is acceptable in my opinion...
62 • Long Winded Opion (by jc on 2023-08-16 15:58:54 GMT from Germany)
Commenter why-oh-why, (No. 56), aptly named, it was comments such as expressed by you that got me to check out MX19 3 or 4 years ago and found it far superior to Fedora Workstation, Mint, or Ubuntu. Any systemd (Fedora, Mint, or Ubuntu) is pretty much useless to me. Of the four you mentioned Salix is the only one I would use.
My choices / recommendations are:
Devuan, MX, Slackware (& possibly derivatives), or PCLOS.
Thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster there are many linux distribution to choose from, as well as BSD.
Its great to live in interesting times.
Systemd Linux is dead, long live MX Linux.
63 • @61 • @56 "sane" presets (by Kazlu from France) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-16 16:33:34 GMT from Netherlands)
"[1] Everything you mention is personal preference ... [2] Besides, single click open is the default behaviour for iOS and Android and I see no one complaining that this renders the system unusable ... [3] Whatever the OS I am using, I will have some tweaks to do ... adjusting ...Took me between 5 and 10 minutes overall ..."
You are making a few mistakes here...
1. No, not everything is a personal preference. That's only the opinion of those who don't deal professionally with GUI design.
2. Android and iOS are not devices designed for work. Besides, if one has to select 15 out of 150 images, a long press or dedicated button will show check-boxes beside the items. *
3. What is better for YOU, and what YOU will do or not, is irrelevant for what is the best for most (aka == "sane").
4. To YOU... ;)
* That item selection is really a big no-go. Try it yourself. Simply open an apps icon folder with some 1000+ icons, and try to select every that contains "p". With a little luck, the phone will ring, or your dog will suddenly bark, and your cursor will shift for a few millimeters, and all selected icons will be unselected ... all but one.
64 • @63: (by dragonmouth on 2023-08-17 14:01:43 GMT from United States)
"3. What is better for YOU, and what YOU will do or not, is irrelevant for what is the best for most (aka == "sane")."
Who determines what is "sane"? YOU? Yours is just one opinion out of millions - none more or less valid or invalid tan any other.
You have appointed yourself as the Alpha and Omega of what is the "right" way of configuring and using Linux. Everybody configures and use Linux in their own way. There is NO one "right" way to use Linux, or any O/S for that matter.
65 • @64 • @63: (by dragonmouth United States) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-17 19:13:32 GMT from Netherlands)
"You have appointed yourself as the Alpha and Omega of what is the "right" way of configuring and using Linux. Everybody configures and use Linux in their own way. There is NO one "right" way to use Linux, or any O/S for that matter."
Yes, I did, as I obviously understood what you didn't.
The OS must come properly preconfigured, and YOU should be able to brake it—not the other way around.
When I buy a car, I expect 4 round wheels; you are free to use 3 round wheels in addition to hexagonal. ;)
"I can reconfigure XYZ" in 5 minutes can't be an excuse for lousy preconfiguration.
Fixing the OS needs knowledge that 99 percent of users are missing.
Mac and Windows, Fedora Gnome, and Ubuntu work OOTB.
66 • @63, @65 - 'Sane' presets of OS's (by Albert on 2023-08-17 20:43:54 GMT from United States)
I fully agree with @64 'dragonmouth' here. I don't like the four OS's you suggested at the end of @65, which "work OOTB".
I like to customize EVERY OS I use my own way.
Besides, I don't have to "deal professionally with GUI design" in order to use an O.S.
Also when you affirm "Fixing the OS needs knowledge that 99 percent of users are missing" I think that a) you are grossly underestimating linux users, b) not 99% of linux user are newbies.
In spite of all I mentioned above I think that you are entitled to have and express your opinion, just as everybody else.
67 • @65: (by dragonmouth on 2023-08-17 21:22:59 GMT from United States)
"I obviously understood what you didn't."
And what is that, pray tell?
"Mac and Windows, Fedora Gnome, and Ubuntu work OOTB"
Right there you gave up any shred of credibility you may have had.
IF Windows works OOTB, why, after each update, is there a slew of articles on how to fix the problems created by it?
68 • Not long winded, but still opinion... (by Gary W on 2023-08-18 06:38:28 GMT from Australia)
@62 I have to echo everything you said; after nearly 30 years of using Linux, and dozens of distros, I've settled on three that you mention: MX, Devuan, and PCLinuxOS.
I have a soft spot for Slackware, having started with that (31-floppy install!), but enjoy a bit of hand-holding (e.g. dependency resolution).
If it wasn't for those three, I would head for Void, and try to fill in some of my gaps in its repositories by messing around with compiling from source.
Absolutely spoilt for choice :-) Kudos and felicitations to all those developers!
69 • Gnome Fedora - working OOTB? (assume reference is to interface) (by Hoos on 2023-08-18 07:17:17 GMT from Singapore)
-- sorry, repost as my earlier posts were not going through. Also corrected the bit about Dash, because it used to be hidden on the left vertical until Gnome 40 when it was moved to the bottom horizontal. But I keep my fully exposed Dash-Dock where it used to be, on the left.
For me, default Gnome setup OOTB is not right for me. I don't like the hidden dash.
So straight away I install Dash to Dock, but I leave the Dash-Dock on the left, where it used to be located in Gnome until fairly recently. That's pretty much like MX having its default panel as a left vertical one, isn't it?
And I leave the Dash's application menu button at the bottom instead of the top. With the number of "favourites" I have pinned to the visible Dash, it stretches almost all the way to the bottom left corner like a vertical panel, meaning the applications button is close to where the MX default Start button is.
In MX, I place a launcher on the top left corner of the vertical panel to activate xfdashboard. That's pretty much like Gnome's Activities overview activated by the top left hot corner.
Now why would I want the MX Start button in the top left?
Maybe that's not your setup, but that's my setup in Fedora Gnome and MX XFCE, and I see a fair number of similarities in where things are placed in both DE.
IMHO, interface setup is often a personal usage thing.
70 • @67 • @65: (by dragonmouth from United States) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 07:59:44 GMT from Netherlands)
"I obviously understood what you didn't."
"And what is that, pray tell?"
GUI design principles, use case, and the needs of computer users.
"IF Windows works OOTB, why, after each update, is there a slew of articles on how to fix the problems created by it?"
Because every update is a risk, no matter which OS, and because the product with 75 % market share is expected to have more issues than the one with 2 % market share.
However, update issues are not relevant for the GUI design. ;)
71 • @66 'Sane' presets of OS's (by Albert from United States) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 08:20:30 GMT from Netherlands)
"Besides, I don't have to "deal professionally with GUI design" in order to use an O.S."
You don't have to, but it would certainly help you understand what I'm even talking about. ;)
Nobody puts your right to customize and fiddle in question, but it is important to understand that your personal preferences and your opinion are irrelevant.
The thing here is that GUI design is science. People make surveys and collect telemetry data to find out what works best FOR MOST USERS.
72 • @69 • Gnome Fedora - working OOTB? (by Hoos from Singapore) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 08:42:53 GMT from Netherlands)
The Gnome does work OOTB, and it works much better than any other Linux GUI ever made.
Try using it on a 2-in-1 device, for example. Flipping the screen and using it as a tablet never worked before we got Gnome, and it works very well on desktop too, BUT ...
The biggest issue is not the Gnome GUI but its users and their rejection (incapability?) to learn and adapt.
It's like the gear-changing lever on the floor or beside the steering wheel, which might also be replaced with a button on the dashboard or on the backside of the steering wheel itself—the user must learn how to deal with changes.
Gnome ships with a standard as well as a "classic" interface, and there are also extensions to change its default behavior.
"Now why would I want the MX Start button in the top left?"
Because the start menu button belongs to "the beginning" of the panel (dock, shelf, taskbar).
It is so in every well executed interface, be it Windows, Plasma, macOS or Gnome.
73 • @72 (by Hoos on 2023-08-18 09:33:11 GMT from Singapore)
Thank you for your response. I think it says it all.
Final 2 points:
(1) So Gnome, the best DE evah, according to you, changed the Dash in Gnome 40 from left vertical to bottom horizontal. So..... the previous design was... wrong? And now, some users unhappy about this switch to bottom horizontal because they preferred it on the left (closer to the top lett Activities corner). I'm sure there are proponents for both locations.
(2) "extensions to change its default behaviour" - extensions like Dash to Dock or Dash to Panel are pretty popular, aren't they? (number of downloads can be seen on the Gnome shell extension site). Why do you think that is?
74 • @46 MX Linux v systemd (by Chris Whelan on 2023-08-18 09:43:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
If you want to run a distro that boots with systemd, you can still use MX Linux. It's available as an option from the GRUB menu.
75 • @66 P.S. 'Sane' presets of OS's (by Albert from United States) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 12:46:33 GMT from Netherlands)
"Also when you affirm "Fixing the OS needs knowledge that 99 percent of users are missing" I think that a) you are grossly underestimating linux users, b) not 99% of linux user are newbies."
Define "linux users" to notice where the mistake is hiding.
If the French National Police sets up 37000 Ubuntu workplaces, we will have 37000 Linux users.
Most of them neither have the knowledge nor are paid to reconfigure anything ... ;)
The same goes for office workers, school students, etc.
76 • @73 (by Hoos from Singapore) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 13:31:29 GMT from Netherlands)
(1) So Gnome, the best DE evah, according to you, changed the Dash in Gnome 40 from left vertical to bottom horizontal. So..... the previous design was... wrong? And now, some users unhappy about this switch to bottom horizontal because they preferred it on the left (closer to the top lett Activities corner). I'm sure there are proponents for both locations.
"The best" does not describe "the perfect" product, but the one that is better than all competitors, and Gnome is better because it works very well on all devices. I like TWM, IceWM, and Enlightenment very much, but do I want them on my 2-in-1 devices? Thanks, but no thanks.
The Dash... the problem is basically unresolvable because one panel has only as much space for the icons as the screen height or width provides.
Vertical Dash has, despite auto-scaling (more icons in Dash, smaller they get), much less space for the icons.
Since it showed that most people tend to add all applications they often use in Dash, and since most users are "horizontal" users, the recent changes make sense.
Dash is also a part of Activities and shows the Workspaces. When using multiple monitors in a "horizontal use case," where the monitors are placed left and right, it proved difficult for many to orientate and switch the desktops if previews were placed underneath.
In Ubuntu settings, there is an integrated interface for easy resizing and repositioning of dock, sidebar, or taskbar panels.
Pop_OS decided to keep vertical workspaces previews.
(2) "extensions to change its default behaviour" - extensions like Dash to Dock or Dash to Panel are pretty popular, aren't they? (number of downloads can be seen on the Gnome shell extension site). Why do you think that is?
That was already explained in @72.
77 • Jaw flappin' (by Friar Tux on 2023-08-18 14:04:35 GMT from Canada)
Wow... all this jaw flappin' about about which DE is best and where the taskbar/panel should be. Basically, for me, it should be where I want it. As for the BEST desktop environment, again, for me, it's Cinnamon. It just works with never a hiccup - at least not in the last seven years (before that I used MSWindows). Due to muscle memory, I prefer a "traditional" ( OK, MSWindows-like) set up, with an extra panel at the top holding all my most used shortcuts. I keep an analogue clock in the upper left (under the top panel) and a postit app under the clock. On the right, I keep a small calendar with reminders under the top panel (used to be Orage, now its Rainlendar due to the small amount of desktop real estate they use up).
Anyway, my point is that it's really up to what you're used to. Adapting to new/different layouts may be alright for some, but for me, to be most productive, I need stuff to be organised in a way that my muscles are used to and automatically move to. It's the same, again for me, as if someone took my keyboard and rearranged all the keys. It would take my much longer to type anything, since my fingers would automatically be hitting all the wrong keys using my "normal" typing skills. You can flap your gums about DEs and where things SHOULD be, but, in the end, it where YOU want/need them to be. There really is no right or wrong here. By the the way, I know someone who keeps all they shortcuts in a small window (folder ?) very similar to the very old Program Manager in MSWindows 3.1 (Gnome, anyone?).
78 • @77 • Jaw flappin' (by Friar Tux from Canada) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 17:14:05 GMT from Netherlands)
As a "creature of habit," you would be useless as a GUI-testing subject. That's why one should preferably make GUI tests with children.
However, if you were reading my original post above, you might have noticed that the taskbar was only one of the objections.
That item selection preset would have been a much more interesting topic for discussion and finding excuses.
To my knowledge, MX is the only OS implementing the auto-deselect feature.
"As for the BEST desktop environment, again, FOR ME, it's Cinnamon."
I don't mind YOUR personal preferences, but they are irrelevant to anyone else but YOU YOURSELF.
"Due to muscle memory, I prefer a "traditional" ( OK, MSWindows-like) set up, with an extra panel at the top holding all my most used shortcuts."
It kind of reminds me of Gnome Classic... ;)
https://postimg.cc/68xJQ0Yp
79 • Yup (by Friar Tux on 2023-08-18 18:41:39 GMT from Canada)
@76 (why-oh-why) "you would be useless as a GUI-testing subject" Actually, I love testing GUIs and DEs. Two of my favourite are IceWM and WindowMaker - both more like WMs but still...
"if you were reading my original post above" I was referring to the general discussion of the placement of elements, but, OK...
"I don't mind YOUR personal preferences, but they are irrelevant to anyone else but YOU YOURSELF." Exactly. As with the placement of elements on anyone's computer. They are a matter of personal preference so reasons known only to the user. BUT, we do tend to come together in places like this to compare notes - though quite passionately at times.
"It kind of reminds me of Gnome Classic... " Cinnamon... Mate... XFCE,,, IceWM... and so now.
80 • @79 Yup (by Friar Tux from Canada) (by why-oh-why on 2023-08-18 19:42:06 GMT from Netherlands)
""I don't mind YOUR personal preferences, but they are irrelevant to anyone else but YOU YOURSELF." Exactly. As with the placement of elements on anyone's computer."
Which part you didn't understand? Check the last sentence in #71, among rereading all the rest.
An OS developer MUST place the start button properly--you are allowed to make it worse--according to your preferences.
We are not talking about "placement of elements on anyone's computer"--that would be you--we are talking about placement of elements on every user's computer, and MX is breaking the proper design of Xfce default--blue start menu button at the beginning of the panel.
A properly executed button must have proper color (not black on black, like in MX), it needs a proper placement (where the users expect it--at the beginning--unlike MX implementation), etc.
Example:
"In general, use a button that has a visible background for the most likely action in a view. Buttons that have a fill or background shape tend to be the most visually prominent, helping people quickly identify the action they’re most likely to want.
Consider keeping the number of visually prominent buttons to one or two per view. Giving people too many prominent buttons increases their cognitive load, requiring them to spend more time considering options before making a choice." (Apple Developer)
Now, what is the most prominent button on MX? Exactly--Shutdown button. :)
Shiny green button at the beginning of the page, inviting to press it. ;)
https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/buttons
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| • Issue 1052 (2024-01-08): OpenMandriva Lx 5.0, keeping shell commands running when theterminal closes, Mint upgrades Edge kernel, Vanilla OS plans big changes, Canonical working to make Snap more cross-platform |
| • Issue 1051 (2024-01-01): Favourite distros of 2023, reloading shell settings, Asahi Linux releases Fedora remix, Gentoo offers binary packages, openSUSE provides full disk encryption |
| • Issue 1050 (2023-12-18): rlxos 2023.11, renaming files and opening terminal windows in specific directories, TrueNAS publishes ZFS fixes, Debian publishes delayed install media, Haiku polishes desktop experience |
| • Issue 1049 (2023-12-11): Lernstick 12, alternatives to WINE, openSUSE updates its branding, Mint unveils new features, Lubuntu team plans for 24.04 |
| • Issue 1048 (2023-12-04): openSUSE MicroOS, the transition from X11 to Wayland, Red Hat phasing out X11 packages, UBports making mobile development easier |
| • Issue 1047 (2023-11-27): GhostBSD 23.10.1, Why Linux uses swap when memory is free, Ubuntu Budgie may benefit from Wayland work in Xfce, early issues with FreeBSD 14.0 |
| • Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
| • Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
| • Issue 1044 (2023-11-06): Porteus 5.01, disabling IPv6, applications unique to a Linux distro, Linux merges bcachefs, OpenELA makes source packages available |
| • Issue 1043 (2023-10-30): Murena Two with privacy switches, where old files go when packages are updated, UBports on Volla phones, Mint testing Cinnamon on Wayland, Peppermint releases ARM build |
| • Issue 1042 (2023-10-23): Ubuntu Cinnamon compared with Linux Mint, extending battery life on Linux, Debian resumes /usr merge, Canonical publishes fixed install media |
| • Issue 1041 (2023-10-16): FydeOS 17.0, Dr.Parted 23.09, changing UIDs, Fedora partners with Slimbook, GNOME phasing out X11 sessions, Ubuntu revokes 23.10 install media |
| • Issue 1040 (2023-10-09): CROWZ 5.0, changing the location of default directories, Linux Mint updates its Edge edition, Murena crowdfunding new privacy phone, Debian publishes new install media |
| • Issue 1039 (2023-10-02): Zenwalk Current, finding the duration of media files, Peppermint OS tries out new edition, COSMIC gains new features, Canonical reports on security incident in Snap store |
| • Issue 1038 (2023-09-25): Mageia 9, trouble-shooting launchers, running desktop Linux in the cloud, New documentation for Nix, Linux phasing out ReiserFS, GNU celebrates 40 years |
| • Issue 1037 (2023-09-18): Bodhi Linux 7.0.0, finding specific distros and unified package managemnt, Zevenet replaced by two new forks, openSUSE introduces Slowroll branch, Fedora considering dropping Plasma X11 session |
| • Issue 1036 (2023-09-11): SDesk 2023.08.12, hiding command line passwords, openSUSE shares contributor survery results, Ubuntu plans seamless disk encryption, GNOME 45 to break extension compatibility |
| • Full list of all issues |
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| Random Distribution | 
Slix
Slix was a Slovenian live CD distribution based on GNU, Debian and Knoppix.
Status: Discontinued
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TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
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| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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0x969CD4E778C7b6549A2B00e34114e0168c86A542 
