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1 • Fairphone 4 (by Pumpino on 2023-07-24 01:17:55 GMT from Australia)
I love the idea of the Fairphone 4, but in practice, there are many negatives. To begin with, the hardware is terrible. The phone weighs a massive 225g, has massive bezels and a large waterdrop notch, the battery is small for a 6.3" phone, the display is LCD, the chip is old, I suspect the camera is ordinary, and it's expensive.
Sure, it might be updated for 5 years, but Samsung offers superior hardware and updates for a similar period, for the same price. People can keep their Samsung for 5 years too.
2 • Flat or Snap (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-24 01:41:53 GMT from Australia)
Flatpak, Canonicals Snap (with propriety backend) or Appimages. Which do we choose.
Flamewar debate opened.
For people who do not use Ubuntu, who uses Snaps and why do you use it over Flat or Appimages?
3 • Snap, Flatpak & Appimage (by Greg Zeng on 2023-07-24 01:56:40 GMT from Australia)
Distrowatch again opens discussion into a flaw within Linux: Snap versus Flatpak. The third universal compiled-code package for Linux is Appimage. Application creators for Windows, Android, and Apple can easily make compiled ready-to-run applications. Coders for Linux have three contradictory and competing compiled codes. Each has inbuilt 'container' protection. All vary in sensitivity to the user and system settings. Each has inbuilt 'protection' from upgrades, user, hardware and malware disturbances.
Snap is the least popular of the three, due to their restricted authorization process, which determines what is allowed to be in their official libraries ('repositories'). The other two are less authoritarian, so third party coders are more attracted to Flatpak and appimage. All three have application offerings not available to the other two containers. FreeFileSync is available in Flatpak, Windows and PCLOS RPM, but not in any other formats. Slimjet and most other applications are not available in appimage, Snap, nor Flatpak.
Hardcore Linux administrators care not for these ready compiled applications. Most seem to prefer to compile individually from raw source code. This shortage of ready-to-run compiled applications explains the disfavor for Linux by the public, compared to the other three competing operating systems.
4 • Flatpak issue (by Vinfall on 2023-07-24 02:44:02 GMT from Hong Kong)
To me, Flatpak is favorable. Snap is the last resort besides compiling myself. One annoying thing of Flatpak is the size. From my experience (back to 2021), it would install to /var by default, which would take up A LOT of space. To make matters worse, by then I was following the Securing Debian Manual (https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-manual/ch03s02.en.html) and using separate partitions like /home, /tmp, /var etc. Normal apps could possibly survive but emulators like RetroArch would consume all of empty space of /var and trigger disk warning. There are hacks (https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/2147) though but eventually I stopped using Flatpak unless AppImage is not available.
5 • Flatpak/appimage/snap (by WolfAMA on 2023-07-24 02:47:36 GMT from United States)
I think it's funny that most people refuse to use that stuff, but yet the minority that do are the most vocal about it. These are things that we don't need, yet due to a vocal minority, distros shove it down our throats.
6 • Fairphone 4 (by Pumpino on 2023-07-24 03:17:14 GMT from Australia)
I should add to my comment above that GrapheneoS is a better option for a lot of people. It runs F-Droid to install opensource android apps and you can install the Aurora store to anonymously download other apps from Google's play store. It runs the necessary libraries for that in a sandbox, and no other Google services run, so privacy is maintained.
7 • fairphone (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-24 03:35:16 GMT from Australia)
My issues with the fairphone4
1) way too expensive for a phone even if it is upgradeable
2) no headphone jack
3) too large to use comfortably. Eveolution has not provjded me with 3 inch thumbs
4) limited availability to a few countries
I would probably use a Fairphone3 as it is a little smaller and cheaper and has headphone jack as well as more support for alternate Roms, or the Teracube phone which is also upgradeable and can run LineageOS.
8 • Fairphone (by Borgio3 on 2023-07-24 07:31:48 GMT from Italy)
Interesting thread, but i don't use smartphone since june 2022. I decided to be free.
9 • Debian breaking nosystemd systems (by Hank on 2023-07-24 07:58:17 GMT from United States)
Without any consultation, Debian upstream has deliberately gone ahead to update libgudev-1.0-0 to 238 series that breaks any Debian based distro not using udev and systemd.
My sid systemD Free setup which had been running major issue free for more than 4 years destroyed without warning or need.
Shame on you Debian Governance devs who seem to have no signs of a conscience, just following the herd led by IBM red hat..
Many had hoped for a clear stance on support, information and developer cooperation with downstream as indicated in the debian declaration regarding alternative init systems.
Which is, it seems still not worth the paper it was written on.
10 • @9 Debian breaking nosystemd systems (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-24 08:32:46 GMT from Australia)
Can you elaborate exactly what broke? Did you loose data?
SystemD is of course another can of worms within the linux community.
I suppose in your case you will need to swap to Devuan or another SystemD free distro like Artix.
11 • Fairphone (by pierre4l on 2023-07-24 08:49:17 GMT from France)
I bought a Fairphone 3+ secondhand over a year ago. I'd already preferred it over the Fairphone 4 for a few reasons, not only price. The smaller size, headphone jack, fingerprint reader and lack of a notch were all plus points for me. I was upgrading from a 3G phone to 4G so no need for 5G.
Initially I was horrified at the size and weight of the thing. It's too big for any of my pockets. Came with the standard green rubber case which is known for having stretching issues, but I sorted that out by glueing bits of card around the inside. Found an old sunglasses case I'd abandoned for twenty years which fits perfectly as a protective sleeve, and allows just the very top where the notification light is to remain visible. That light is another thing the FF3 has going for it - I find it invaluable. I'm a light phone user so battery life is very reasonable, up to 4 days, with the recharging regulated to between 50 and 95% capacity.
Software-wise, I'd been thinking about installing e/OS (Murena) but instead went with iodéOS, maintained by a French team (I'm in France) but fully usable in English (most of their communications are English or bilingual). I was desperate to get everything Gurgle-related, not least that very irritating bouncy search bar on the home screen, off the phone immediately. Had to figure out the precarious flashing procedure but managed to get it right and have been very pleased with iodéOS since then.
It's Lineage-based but with additional privacy features (now open-sourced), it gets out of my way, is regularly ahead of other OS options with Android version updates, and unlike e/OS is more geared towards keeping my data on my phone and not in the cloud, which is my preference. I hardly install any apps, I'm anti-app, but have a few things from F-Droid, which is also installed by default, and a couple of things from the Aurora store, downloaded anonymously.
Default 'Browser' is just Firefox without branding and telemetry disabled. I hear people always say FF on Android is poor but for me I've found it good enough, it's quick, it syncs with my other Firefox devices, just has an interface with some options that aren't easy to find or optimized. And touching on last week's main topic, KDE Connect is absolutely invaluable for file transfers and a host of other functions. Saves me having to rely on slow bluetooth or to plug the phone in physically to a Linux PC.
iodéOS even allows you to uninstall default apps. I've found most of the default selection usable, but replaced the overly basic Gallery app with Simple Gallery Pro, and Magic Earth with Organic Maps. Amongst the quirks and niggles, finding the GPS position in mapping apps seems a bit rough, I've known the data connection to crap out requiring a reboot to fix it, and flipping between dual SIMs sometimes produces annoying results such as the SMS app switching to SIM 1 even though SIM 2 should be default.
I have the FF3+ model with the updated camera modules. Initially my photo results were very disappointing but after tweaking some settings in OpenCamera it's quite passable, at least in normal conditions. Panorama mode can produce some brilliant results but requires patience. 4K video is possible but I stick with HD. Zooming is not intelligent and doesn't produce good quality.
One thing not really discussed in the review is Fairphone's primary aim, of sourcing parts from suppliers with fair labour conditions and avoiding conflict minerals. Yes, you can buy a Samsung phone perhaps cheaper and get a few years of updates and whatnot, but that's not the point. Fairphone offers a fairtrade alternative, with aims to support devices for 7 years and provide replacement parts. Comparing most standard manufacturers alongside is not a fair comparison, although Nokia have dipped their toes into this market recently.
I dislike phones and tablets, the Gurgle and Apple duopoly and all the privacy implications. It's easy to criticize Fairphone or Murena or iodé or anybody else in the field for not being perfect, but they're at least trying to make a difference.
12 • Sandboxing (by FengLengshun on 2023-07-24 08:54:11 GMT from Indonesia)
For Flatpak obviously I use flatseal. I tried to only use KDE's integrated flatpak kcm in the settings, but it's just not enough yet. I heard that Gnome Software Settings have an integrated permission settings as well, but I haven't looked into it.
The Snap GUI is much clearer for me. But I still can't get over the ~/Snap unhidden folder. I only use Snap in my Ubuntu Server to install Docker and NextCloud. I probably wouldn't mind using it more if they have more of the apps that I want, but a lot of non-commercial devs focuses on Flatpak, so.
I don't really care for AppImage, I just find them to be annoying to manage so I try to avoid them when I can. I'd rather use Conty which combines a bunch of apps into a single binary, and I can build it with a CI. Plus, they have the simplest user-level sandboxing IMHO - it's a bit basic, but it's really useful in preventing homedir littering without having to use boxxy.
And of course there's Nix which is a little bit weird in terms of sandboxing. All of their files are immutable and their packages are wrapped. The main aim doesn't seem to be to restrict access to user/system files, though, just for the app to be resilient and reproducible.
13 • Stuff we don't need... (by Friar Tux on 2023-07-24 13:50:37 GMT from Canada)
@5 (wolfAMA) "These are things we don't need..." I have to disagree with you on that. It would be great if we had all programs and apps in a universal format - able to be downloaded and used on any Linux system. The amount of work and manpower that would save. We definitely need that.
Anyway, my format of choice is AppImage. I like the whole "one file equals one program" idea. They are easy to store and can be moved from distro to distro rather quickly, when the need arises. So far, I've been able to avoid Flatpak and Snaps, which I find quite under developed. For one thing, they, both, do not pick up your global theme of choice (AppImages do). This leaves you with that ugly dark grey coloured theme. (My main theme is a teal coloured, non-flat theme, so it's a bit of a jolt when this ugly dark grey pops up.) My distro of choice is Linux Mint/Cinnamon, so when I need a particular app/program, I first try the Software Manager or Synaptic Package Manager. If I can't find it there, I will hunt for a DEB version. If that isn't available, I'll try AppImage. Finally, if I can't still can't get what I need, I'll (*drags feet*) use Flatpak - maybe, perhaps... (Of course, once I find a DEB version, or AppImage, I save a copy on an external drive so my hunting is reduced to a minimum next time.)
14 • Software Chain (by jc on 2023-07-24 21:11:36 GMT from Austria)
Using Devuan / MX : Software obtained following methods: Synaptic Package Manager, DEB version, AppImage, or source compile. If software is not available by one of these methods, I use alternate software or deem that software function not really required. I refuse to use flatpak or snaps.
15 • Flatpaks and ... (by nsp0323 on 2023-07-24 22:19:16 GMT from Sweden)
Don't use them and never will. Besides, there's nothing "universal" about them. snaps depend on systemd and flatpaks on cgroups. So, none of them can run on my system, and I'm happy with that.
16 • blended apps (by dubbleclicker on 2023-07-24 22:25:33 GMT from United States)
BlendOS is doing some innovative things with apps, immutability, system portability, etc.:
"With native support for Android apps and Linux apps from Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, Kali, Alma, Rocky and more, blendOS gives you access to tons of apps... Just double-click on an APK, DEB or RPM to install it."
However, its browser - which is how you get most apps - is extremely slow to launch, which is a deal breaker at the moment.
17 • Murena (by tuxayo on 2023-07-24 23:44:22 GMT from France)
> What Murena brings to the table is a de-Googled operating system (called /e/OS) which removes all the proprietary applications and telemetry usually associated with Android and replaces these pieces with open source, privacy-respecting equivalents
It's worth mentioning that the alternative to the Google services is the microG project.
https://microg.org/ (which has it's own ROM https://lineage.microg.org/)
Without that, /e/OS won't have much difference in privacy and libre software vs many ROMs.
Also it's worth mentioning that by default there is still a non libre map/navigation app called Magic Earth installed. It's not clear why it's still here now that Organic Maps (Maps.me fork) is there since two years. And before that there was simply Maps.me.
18 • flatpak snaps (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-25 00:47:19 GMT from Australia)
Seems the invisible push to systemD is found in many places, even Snaps. I think we should ask the question why are we being pushed to systemD not just by large distros like Redhat but also from Canonical with its Snaps and also Debian which aaccording to @9 which broke his system after an upgrade.
Sure, there are alternatives. But even Arch uses systemD. Debian uses systemD. Every major distro uses systemD except for Devuan, Artix and a few others.
Snaps is only available if you use systemD......why? Who thought that would be a good design decision?
Snaps also uses a proprietary backend, it is not fully opensource.
When large corporations control the direction of software, including linux, nothing good can come of it.
Maybe we need to get back to basics instead of making things ever mkre complicated.
19 • Re: Murena (by Pumpino on 2023-07-25 02:22:39 GMT from Australia)
@17 tuxayo. GrapheneOS is superior to MicroG. It lets you run Google Play Services sandboxed, so you can download from the play store using Aurora Store without signing into your Google account on your phone. It creates an issue with any paid apps, of course. My banking apps and Maps work fine on my Pixel 5. The issue is that only Pixels are supported and that Graphene only provides updates for as long as Google does, whereas LineageOS maintains devices for years.
There's also CalyxOS, but it only supports older Pixels, the Fairphone 4 and the Xiaomi Mi A2.
20 • Murena (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-25 04:41:32 GMT from Australia)
@19
GrapheneOS is only available for the newer versions of Pixels. If you have an older Pixel like 2XL and less, forget about it. Want a privacy respecting OS, sorry. What about CalyxOS, same, earlier models are no longer supported.
Besides, people who want an upgradeable phone will not go and buy a Pixel.
GrapheneOS may be the best privacy respecting Android OS available, but their supported hardware is so limited as to make their system irrelevant. The percentage of Android users who use an alternate rom than stock is already tiny, then of those who decide to use a privacy rom like calyx or graphene is again even smaller.
Limiting hardware support smakcks of elieism. Why do they not support Pixel 2XL? Is there something wrong with the phones hardware? No. It's just some a big middle finger to users who don't want to spend $500+ on a phone. You can still buy a brand new Pixel 2XL for about $200.
If there any Graphene devs reading, it would be nice to hear why you no longer support older models when infact LineageOS does.
21 • AppImage of course (by StephenC on 2023-07-25 05:11:28 GMT from United States)
Debian stable provides nearly everything I need as a native package. A couple of items I have as AppImages. One app that I use has a Windows portable app version, a portable MAC version, and a Linux AppImage. So three apps and a data file on a thumb drive. No installation needed but I can use my data on nearly any computer without installing anything. That is what "portable" really means. Flatpak and Snap are not portable since they need a runtime installed. I see no advantage for using Flatpak or Snap over a native package.
Too bad Mint's package updater requires Flatpak even if flatpak apps are not installed. Fortunately I was able to neuter Flatpak so that the package updater still runs, but no flatpacks are visible or able to be installed.
22 • Flatpak (by Charlie on 2023-07-25 06:15:23 GMT from Hong Kong)
People underestimate the value of Flatpak/snap because it is not designed for them.
We old Linuxers know how to install a package, know what dependency is (even without the need to deal with it), that's not the case for first time users.
Last time I saw a long thread in openSUSE's mailing list, discussing Libreoffice's dependencies and what packages may be missing for it. At that time I found with Flatpak you won't get these questions.
Yes it's resource consuming but no one cares about it in layman's world. Many promote Linux by saying you can make good use old computers. The fact is, most people wouldn't use grandpa's computer. They use the latest and coolest PC for gaming.
23 • @13 Friar Tux: (by dragonmouth on 2023-07-25 12:41:27 GMT from United States)
Out of curiosity - What apps do you use that are not available with Software Center or Synaptic but are available in AppImage?
I keep reading the posts that say "I need AppImage/Flatpak/Snaps to get apps that are not in the distro repositories" but nobody ever mentions which apps they are. It cannot be that so many people are using esoteric applications.
@22 Charlie:
In close to 20 years of Linux use, Synaptic never failed to fine all of the dependencies for a package, including LibreOffice. If you prefer Flatpak/Snaps, say so. Don't use the "dependency resolution problem" as a straw man.
24 • Portable apps (by Jesse on 2023-07-25 12:49:47 GMT from Canada)
@23: "I keep reading the posts that say "I need AppImage/Flatpak/Snaps to get apps that are not in the distro repositories" but nobody ever mentions which apps they are. It cannot be that so many people are using esoteric applications."
Well, yes, it is possible so many people are using apps not in the main repositories. They don't even need to be esoteric application, they could just be proprietary ones. There's no Signal, Spotify, or TeamViewer in the main Debian repositories, for example. Even with non-free enabled. And Debian has one of the largest repositories in the world. Those are just the first three examples of common, popular applications I picked off the top of my head. There are dozens more like Slack, Brave, Zoom.... You get the idea.
Plus there is also the issue of which _version_ is available. For example, I do a little gaming in my spare time. I like open source games like Wesnoth and SuperTuxKart - both fairly popular. You know what they have in common? You need to be using the same major version number across all players for the games to work properly. My distro has the _previous_ major version while anyone using a more cutting edge distro or Windows is running the latest major version. So if I want to play with other people I need to install the newer version and the easiest way to do that is via Flatpak since my distro doesn't package it.
25 • @24 (by Reyfer on 2023-07-25 13:25:45 GMT from Venezuela)
Jesse, I respect your opinion, but saying that Flatpak is necessary to get those apps is misinformed.
I don't "need" Flatpak to install these on Debian
Signal: https://signal.org/download/linux/
Spotify: From https://www.spotify.com/de-en/download/linux/ "Spotify for Linux is also released as a Debian package. Our aim is that it should work with the latest Long Term Support release of Ubuntu, but we will try to make it work for other releases of Ubuntu and Debian as well.
You will first need to configure our debian repository:
curl -sS https://download.spotify.com/debian/pubkey_7A3A762FAFD4A51F.gpg | sudo gpg --dearmor --yes -o /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/spotify.gpg
echo "deb http://repository.spotify.com stable non-free" | sudo tee /etc/apt/sources.list.d/spotify.list
Then you can install the Spotify client:
sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install spotify-client"
TeamViewer: https://www.teamviewer.com/en-us/download/linux/
So, again, where is the "need" for Flatpak?
;
26 • Amen to that... (by Friar Tux on 2023-07-25 13:42:06 GMT from Canada)
@24 (Jesse) Thanx, better said than I could have. Might also add LibreWolf to that list. My main reason for preferring AppImage, though, is that they are truly portable as opposed to Flatpak and Snap. (See @21 (StephenC)) AND, my repeated rant about Flatpak and Snap not picking up my preferred themes.
27 • Flatpak and Snap (by Zaphod on 2023-07-25 14:18:32 GMT from United States)
The two operating systems that I use daily are Void Linux, which uses Runit rather than SystemD and is compiled against Musl libc, and FreeBSD. That makes software portability very important to me.
The thing with these "universal" package formats is that they are encouraging a culture of not actually caring whether the software is truly portable, because the flatpak/snap/AppImage an run "anywhere". Except that everywhere winds up being "mainstream Linux distros". Portable to me means being able to compile and run on anything that looks vaguely like Unix without having to significant;y rewrite portions of it. We have a different definition of "portable". I'm encountering more and more breakage due to portability issues than ever before these days, and I really think part of it is the mad rush to containerization of applications creating lazy developers. Let's not bother checking if it compiles against a different version of libraries, the IDE automatically links to the flatpak provided ones, right?
28 • Flatpak (by Jesse on 2023-07-25 15:54:25 GMT from Canada)
@25: "I respect your opinion, but saying that Flatpak is necessary to get those apps is misinformed."
I think you should go back and read what I wrote. I never said Flatpak is necessary to get those apps I mentioned. I didn't even say portable package formats are necessary to get the apps I listed. I have no idea where you got that idea.
What I wrote was "So if I want to play with other people I need to install the newer version and the easiest way to do that is via Flatpak since my distro doesn't package it."
Flatpak is often the _easiest_ method to get newer versions of software or software not in the repositories. It's not _necessary_, but it is frequently the most appealing option.
29 • Your do-it-all appimage (by Ted H in Minnesota on 2023-07-25 17:09:58 GMT from United States)
21 • AppImage of course (by StephenC on 2023-07-25 05:11:28 GMT from United States
@21 You wrote:
"One app [appimage] that I use has a Windows portable app version, a portable MAC version, and a Linux AppImage. So three apps and a data file on a thumb drive. No installation needed but I can use my data on nearly any computer without installing anything."
OK, sounds interesting! Just what is the NAME of that appimage, please?
Ted
30 • Flatpaks and Snaps (by Sam Crawford on 2023-07-25 18:46:15 GMT from United States)
I run Flatpaks on all my linux desktops. If I install Debian, then I only have Zoom and VueScan in my Flatpaks.
If running openSUSE, I also install VLC and Clementine and/or Rhythmbox as Flatpak apps because that's one way around openSUSE's multimedia codecs limitations.
In any case, I leave the restrictions alone and don't adjust any Flatpak settings.
31 • Flat (by Sam Crawford on 2023-07-25 18:50:42 GMT from United States)
What I forgot to add in the comment above, #30, is that I install Zoom and VueScan as Flatpak apps because they don't have a repo where I can update them using apt or zypper.
Using "sudo flatpak update" is much easier than having to download an update and reinstalling every time the apps are updated.
32 • @13 Friar Tuck (by WolfAMA on 2023-07-25 21:14:04 GMT from United States)
"These are things we don't need..." I have to disagree with you on that. It would be great if we had all programs and apps in a universal format - able to be downloaded and used on any Linux system. The amount of work and manpower that would save. We definitely need that." You must be new to Linux and confusing 'What we need, with conveniance'
I've been on Linux since 1996.We have it easy these days. We don't need to compile from souce much these days. You just load up a package manager, search for what we need and it's right there. Simple, easy and convenient. Appimages et al are truly not needed.
My personal opinion, which no one asked for, but will get anyway: If someone is so dependent on snaps/appimages/etc people may as well stay away from Linux. Use an OS made for convenience like Windows.
33 • I think we're on opposite ends here... (by Friar Tux on 2023-07-25 21:58:43 GMT from Canada)
@32 (WolfAMA) I moved to Linux for convenience - is what Windows is NOT. However, I do not like mucking about with compiling. My preference is download what I need and get right to work. True there are some that like to tinker. I do not. I do like repositories and Software Managers since it makes it easy and convenient to get my work done. I believe AppImages are needed, for folks like me, since I don't have to relocate and reinstall software whenever I get the "fat-finger syndrome" and need to reinstall my OS. I can keep the "one file = one program" on a USB stick and "Copy To" a folder of choice and I'm back to work in less than half an hour. (By the way, DEB file are similarly kept on a USB stick, but I actually have to install those, which takes a bit long, but oh well.
I like convenience, that's why, to me, it would be nice if all apps/programs came in AppImage format. All we would need is one central website where everyone could get what they needed for whatever distro they have. That way the manpower at each distro could be used to work on that particular distro. But, that's just me, wishing.
34 • "We have it easy these days" (by EH2 on 2023-07-26 01:35:22 GMT from Mexico)
@32: Power tools are not really necessary to get most jobs done, there's always a manual tool that will do any given job perfectly, all you need is knowing how to use the tool, knowing how to maintain the tool, some elbow grease, and time.
But power tools sure get the job done faster, don't you think? Sure, they're more expensive, and they draw power from the wall, and so on. But for many people, that's a worthwhile tradeoff - I can get the job done right now, with minimal fuss, minimal manual know-how, and with time to spare to do something else - or even go on with the next steps of the same job.
Snaps, Flatpaks, et al are the same thing. Sure, they're bloated, they don't play nice with all themes (for the time being), among other drawbacks. But I install the damn thing and it runs and I use it and what do you know, I finished what I needed to do without a fuss.
Not everyone is gonna have the time to tinker, especially with deadlines hanging over their head. Not everyone is gonna benefit from the lengthy process of learning high-level Linux, especially if they have other stuff they should be studying or updating themselves on. But you know what benefits everyone? Being able to get the job done without depending on f'ing Microsoft.
35 • Flatpaks again... (by EH2 on 2023-07-26 01:46:06 GMT from Mexico)
I once mentioned here that I hadn't heard anyone mention why was it that Snaps or Flatpaks were so bad we all had to avoid them. And a few people responded, with varying degrees of patience, a bunch of drawbacks that to me sounded more like nitpicks or tradeoffs - the issues often came with a related advantage, or were things that would eventually be polished as the software got updated over time.
I've made a couple old computers run perfectly with low footprint distros that have everything that's needed for productivity, without Snaps or Flatpaks et al. None of those computers can run anything with, say, KDE Neon or something with similar system requirements, because they're old. The computers I've installed those kinds of distros on have more than enough space to have Flatpaks installed without issue. So I think that as long as there are communities willing to maintain distros and repos aimed at old computers, there's no problem with stuff aimed at newer hardware sacrifice a tiny bit of resources for the sake of speed and convenience for the user.
Also, WolfAMA... We've long passed the time in which Windows was convenient. There's nothing wrong with making Linux better for everyone, because everyone needs Linux, whether they know it yet or not.
36 • snaps (by GrumpyGranpa on 2023-07-26 02:38:35 GMT from Australia)
Snaps is not 100% opensource. It has a proprietary backend.
Snapd is hardcoded to use Canonical's servers for obtaining snaps and the metadata associated with them. And the source for the backend servers is not available.
Flatpaks are 100% opensourceas are Appimages.
If people want to be under the control of Canonical, it's their choice.
37 • @34 & 35: (by dragonmouth on 2023-07-26 11:54:08 GMT from United States)
"Snaps, Flatpaks, et al are the same thing."
They are like power tools built to operate on slightly different, mutually exclusive standards. With some kludging they can be made to work together but most of the time it is a PITA.
"...bunch of drawbacks that to me sounded more like nitpicks or tradeoffs..."
To you they may be "nitpicks & tradeoffs" but to others they may be real issues.
Just as you would like your opinions accepted for what they are, do not belittle the opinions you do not agree with.
38 • "Tradeoffs" or "real issues" (by EH2 on 2023-07-26 16:00:22 GMT from Mexico)
@37: In the second post I made (which I only made because I thought my browser messed up and ate the other one...) I do point out that I've been able to get systems working fine without Flatpaks, because there are distros out there with well-maintained repos (your mileage may vary on that) that one can rely on.
I will concede that if I don't explain my position, I can't expect people to read my mind through the network. I'm not on the side of people who say Snaps or Flatpaks etc. are "the future" and want to get rid of managed packages and distro-specific repositories. I'm acquainted with a former Ubuntu and Debian contributor that's voiced his distaste for packages and even with his expertise I just cannot agree.
However, I also firmly disagree with people who think we "don't need them" when they very much satisfy real needs and resolve real issues, even if obviously not everyone's. I just don't see why we can't have both, especially with a community willing and able to keep both coexisting without much issue, while also avoiding the namecalling and the claims that "there can be only one".
(Also when I said Snaps and Flatpaks are the same thing, I didn't mean to say they were exactly the same thing, just that they fill the same niche in different scenarios and with different pros and cons, like how Snaps have a proprietary backend while Flatpaks don't, etc.)
39 • snaps/flatpacks/ packages etc.. (by Otis on 2023-07-27 12:19:59 GMT from United States)
@38 "I just don't see why we can't have both, especially with a community willing and able to keep both coexisting without much issue, while also avoiding the namecalling and the claims that 'there can be only one'."
We've seen these fights with just about every change in Linux, covering nearly every aspect of Linux distro general development right from the beginning. The first one to catch my (naive) attention was about licensing and the definition of "free." It went on and on about so many other issues that it came close to characterizing Linux as a snake eating its own tail. Remember the systemd wars?
I think we settle into the "both" or many solution most often, as the nature of Linux seems to cultivate that, thank the heavens.
Number of Comments: 39
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