 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 1024, 19 June 2023 |
Welcome to this year's 25th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
About a week ago the Debian team released version 12 of the project's GNU/Linux distribution which was then followed-up by new release of the port of Debian's userland to the Hurd kernel. This week we begin with a look at the Linux branch of Debian and talk about changes to the project's firmware, the distribution's unusual installer, and the project's live media. In our News section we discuss more of the Hurd branch of the Debian project and share a reminder that Ubuntu 22.10 is nearing the end of its supported life. Meanwhile we celebrate FreeBSD reaching its 30 year milestone. Anyone who experiments with Linux distributions is probably familiar with the process of writing install media to a USB drive. This is a common and sometimes risky process which can easily lead to data loss if the user makes a typo. In our Tips and Tricks column we talk about one approach for making writing install media to USB thumb drives safer. Also on the subject of safety, there are a lot of destructive commands available through the Linux command line. In our Opinion Poll this week we ask whether our readers use any aliases or wrapper scripts to protect themselves against data loss. Let us know about any aliases you use for safety in the comments below. Plus we are pleased to share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Debian 12
The Debian project released a new version of its Linux-based distribution just over a week ago. Debian 12 (code name "Bookworm") is a fairly tame release, even by Debian's conservative standards. The project's main new feature is a shift in how the distribution handles non-free firmware, bits of code required to run many of the world's wireless networking cards and other bits of hardware.
In the past, Debian shipped without non-free firmware on its install media which made the distribution difficult to use on many computers, especially those which required wireless networking to download new packages. This was in line with Debian's dedication to shipping freely licensed software only with its install media. However, since most people need non-free firmware to run their computers properly, Debian then provided a second set of unofficial install media which included the extra firmware. This second set of unofficial media, which included non-free firmware, was harder to locate through the project's website and the situation left many users frustrated.
With Debian 12, the project is able to include non-free firmware as an exception to the project's stance on free-only software. This unifies the install media, meaning the single set of official install media should work everywhere and a second (unofficial) set is no longer required.
Otherwise, the release announcement for Debian 12 indicates small, evolutionary steps. Desktop environments and the kernel have been updated. Some new translations have been added. Hardware and CPU support has remained much the same since Debian 11 was published about two years ago.
The Installer
Debian offers two main editions of its install media. There is a set of DVD-sized ISO files for local (off-line) installs. The DVD ISO files are about 3.7GB in size. There are also net-install ISO files which grab packages from on-line repositories and these ISO files are about 740MB in size for the x86_64 build.
I decided to start with the DVD (off-line) media. I downloaded it, confirmed its checksum matched the one published in the Debian repositories, and booted from it. The media's boot menu offers to run a graphical installer or a text-based installer. There is also an option for running an installer with text-to-speech capabilities for visually impaired people.
The Debian installer, whether we use the text-based version or the graphical version, then walks us through the same steps. Each question typically occupies one screen. We're asked to select our language, our country, and our keyboard layout. We're asked to make up a hostname and optionally provide a domain name. We're asked to make up a root password, a username, proper name, and password for a regular user. We're also asked to pick our timezone.
We're asked to participate in guided or manually partitioning the local hard drive. The manual approach is a little awkward. Actually, the guided approach is too, to my mind. Debian will offer to set up a partition on available space, then ask some questions such as which disk to use and whether we need a separate /home partition. We're then asked to look over and tweak any settings for the suggested partitions. Debian sets up an ext4 partition for the operating system and a swap partition by default. No filesystem flags, such as noatime, are enabled the way many other distributions do in order to improve performance. However, we can toggle filesystem flags if desired.
The installer then spends a few minutes copying the base system over to our hard drive. We're then offered a chance to scan for other local media and the DVD version of the installer offers to connect us to network mirrors. If we take the networked option, we're asked to pick a country (this is the third time we're asked to provide our location) and a nearby mirror. We're also asked to provide any information needed to connect through a web proxy. We're also asked if we're like to participate in an automated package popularity survey.
The following screen asks us which desktops we want to install with our options being: GNOME, GNOME Flashback, KDE Plasma, Xfce, Cinnamon, MATE, LXDE, and LXQt. GNOME is the default. We're also given the chance to select a web server package and OpenSSH. The first time through I picked GNOME with LXQt as a backup desktop environment.
The installer starts copying files and, at 95% completion, reports a failure. No reason is given, we're simply told this step cannot be completed. We are given the chance to proceed (to install a boot loader) or go back to the software selection step. The next time through I tried matching GNOME and KDE Plasma. This seemed to work at first, copying a few thousands files to my hard drive, but failure was reported again. Since GNOME is the default desktop, I tried once more with just GNOME. This appeared to work, at first. But then I was asked to select a default paper size for my printer (I didn't have a printer hooked up at the time) and I was asked to pick methods for tuning fonts - an option I'd never encountered in my many years of using Debian's installer. Passing beyond the font adjustment screen caused the installer to report a fatal error again.
Debian 12 -- The system installer running into an error
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I jumped ahead this time to installing the boot loader, which seemed to work, figuring I'd install a desktop later if needed. The installer set up the GRUB boot loader and offered to reboot the computer. My system was able to boot to text mode only, but I was unable to login as the username and password I had set up during the install process were not recognized. Since several things has clearly gone wrong, rather than plow ahead, I decided to wipe the install of Debian 12 and start over.
I won't bore you with all the details of the next several trials as I tried different combinations. I made over ten attempts to install Debian 12 using the official install media. I tried installing from the DVD and the net-install media (after confirming both matched their checksums). I tried booting the installer in Legacy BIOS and UEFI modes. (The text installer could not run in UEFI mode, only in Legacy BIOS mode. The graphical installer ran in both modes.) I tried setting up Debian on my workstation, my laptop, and in a VirtualBox environment. I tried installing just the GNOME desktop, just the MATE desktop, and just the Xfce desktop at various points.
The installer usually failed while copying desktop packages to the hard drive, though not always. Sometimes it would crash while trying to install GRUB afterwards. Once it reported failure while trying to install the kernel while setting up the base system before the desktop selection screen. In each case the installer was unusually slow, often taking 20 minutes to try to set up packages for just one desktop environment, something most other distributions can do in ten minutes or less.
Debian 12 -- The text installer failing
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This slow process was made all the more frustrating because the installer requires us to babysit it. Most Linux installers collect all their information up front, then perform their long-running actions at the end. Debian's is strange in that it will collect some information from us, then work, then collect more information, then copy packages, then collect more information, then copy more files, then ask us about boot loader settings, then finish its work. It means we can't just provide a few answers and then walk away. Debian's installer also has, at minimum, about three times more prompts than most mainstream Linux distributions, making it a tedious process. In total, my first day trying to get Debian working, I probably looked at about 200 screens of the installer.
After several hours and no successful installs, I was feeling discouraged and ready to give up. I was also puzzled as I regularly run Debian and Debian-based systems on this same test equipment without any issues. The media checksums passed, the hard drive had plenty of room on it (less than a quarter of the available space was used when the installer failed), and the installer requires very little RAM (less than 1GB). Then it occurred to me to track down and try the live media. Debian doesn't seem to officially acknowledge its live media, the live ISO files are not clearly indicated on the download page and the download options are tucked away in a different corner of the mirrors than the install media. However, the live media (available in several desktop flavours) would not only boot on all my test equipment, the boot menu offered an install option.
The live media offers us the same graphical installer as the one on the official media, though the sections on software selection are skipped. I was running the GNOME live media and so the installer automatically set up GNOME 43 for me. The live media's installer not only completed successfully on every attempt, it also finished in a third of the time the DVD install image had taken, performing almost as quickly as the installers of most other mainstream distributions. Finally, I had a bootable copy of Debian on my hard drive!
Early impressions
Debian booted to a graphical login screen where I could sign into the GNOME desktop. There are actually a few different flavours of GNOME available, including Wayland, X11, and GNOME Classic options. I experimented with the Wayland and X11 GNOME Shell options and found they worked identically to each other for all practical purposes.
GNOME Shell is set up with a light theme and vanilla style. A small panel is placed at the top of the screen with the user menu and Activities button. When the Activities view is enabled we can search for software by typing its name or description, or by selecting options from a dock which appears at the bottom of the screen. Since the Activities button is in the upper-left corner and the dock is at the bottom, this makes for a lot of mouse movement.
Debian 12 -- Trying a dark theme
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Much of the style and theme can be changed, along with other aspects of desktop behaviour, through the GNOME Settings panel. I find this panel easy to navigate and made frequent trips to it during my trial.
Hardware
When I was testing Debian in a VirtualBox environment the GNOME desktop did not automatically resize to fit the virtual machine window. I was able to change the desktop resolution through the settings panel. The desktop was a bit sluggish in the virtual machine - functional, but slow enough I wouldn't want to use it on a regular basis and slower than GNOME on a few other distributions I've used in recent months.
GNOME (both the Wayland and X11 sessions) crashed a few times when running in VirtualBox. However, the desktop remained stable during my trials with it on my physical workstation.
In fact, GNOME performed quite well when running on my workstation. The desktop was fairly responsive and offered about average or maybe slightly better than average performance.
Debian 12 -- The GNOME Settings panel
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Debian, when installed from live media and running GNOME, was heavier than most other mainstream distributions. A fresh install took up 10GB of disk space, a lot considering the relatively small number of desktop applications included. When signed into GNOME Shell Debian consumed a full 1GB of RAM. This is within the normal range for other distributions running the GNOME desktop, but nearly twice the memory consumption of most Linux distributions running other desktops.
When running on my workstation, Debian was able to detect and use all of my hardware. My wireless card, usually a problem for Debian in the past, was supported. The media keys on my keyboard worked and the system ran smoothly.
Included software
Digging through GNOME's application menu I found the Firefox web browser, the Evolution and Thunderbird e-mail clients, and LibreOffice. The Totem multimedia player was included along with codecs for playing video and audio files. GNOME Files is the default file manager. There are a handful of other small GNOME utilities too, including Maps, Contacts, and Weather, plus a few small games.
While exploring the command line I discovered the distribution ships with the GNU command line tools, the GNU Compiler Collection, and manual pages. Debian runs the systemd init software and version 6.1 of the Linux kernel.
Debian 12 -- The live GNOME desktop and its application menu
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It's a fairly small, helpful collection of software. We're given a wide range of functionality without overly cluttering the application menu.
Debian, at least when install from the live media, does not grant the first regular user administrator rights. In other words, we're not able to use sudo to perform admin functions. We can change this by adding our user to the sudo group.
Software management
Debian ships with a few tools for managing software. On GNOME's dock we find a launcher for GNOME Software, a modern software centre which is divided into three tabs. In the first tab we can explore available software in the Debian repositories. The second tab shows items already on our system that we can remove. The third tab displays software we can update.
I found GNOME Software made it easy to search for applications. We can click on items to see more complete descriptions of them and new items can be installed with a click. Likewise, I was able to remove items displayed in the second tab without issues. Even programs which came pre-installed with the system could be removed.
The third tab, which displays updates, did not work properly for me. A list of available updates was indeed displayed, along with a button which invited me to "reboot and install" these packages. (Apparently rebooting is a necessary part of this process, but only when using GNOME Software.) Clicking the button immediately caused an error message to appear which complained about a missing file: /var/lib/PackageKit/prepared-update. I tried refreshing the package database and trying again and was met with the same error.
Debian 12 -- GNOME Software failing to apply updates
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Debian also ships with the classic Synaptic package manager which is capable of performing installs, removals, and upgrades of packages. We're also given the command line APT tools which I found were also completely capable of upgrading software as well as performing installs and removals.
Debian does not offer Flatpak or Snap support out of the box. We can fetch frameworks for both portable package formats from Debian's repositories if we wish. I added Flatpak support and found Debian (unlike some modern Linux distributions) does not automatically enable the Flathub repository, Flathub must be configured manually.
Debian 12 -- Browsing packages with the Synaptic package manager
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Conclusions
Debian is a project that I've used a lot over the years and it's one for which I have a lot of respect. Debian strives to be a "universal operating system", running on a wide range of architectures, on a wide range of hardware, and in a variety of roles. Debian can run on just about anything (from a phone, to a Raspberry Pi, to a server, to a laptop) and perform as a anything from a web server to a gaming machine. The fact Debian also offers both regular stable releases with five years of support and rolling branches means the distribution can be used just about anywhere. The project's famed stability and its flexible are key reasons behind Debian being the basis for over 120 actively maintained distributions.
With all of that said, while Debian is a technological and organizational achievement virtually unparalleled in the open source community, using plain Debian (as opposed to one of its many children) is not a particularly pleasant experience on a desktop computer. A big aspect of this is, as I mentioned last week in my openSUSE review, some distributions act as a unified whole, a platform that feels designed. openSUSE is a prime example of that, where all the pieces are fitted together to make something greater than the sum of their parts. Debian is toward the other end of the spectrum and the distribution feels like an uncoordinated collection of components. The pieces are all in the same room, but they don't fit together, they aren't following a shared vision. Everything feels like it's trying to follow a lowest common denominator (fitting with Debian's "universal" theme). The themes are vanilla and washed out, the desktop feels awkward to navigate and requires a lot of mouse movement, nothing is automated. Updates are checked for and applied manually, Flatpak and Flathub access need to be handled manually, and there is no central configuration panel that works across all desktop environments. We even need to grant our first user admin access manually, which brings me to the system installer.
In the past I've often pointed out that Debian's installer is awkward, slow, and unpleasant to use compared to the system installers of most other mainstream distributions. It uses about four times more screens to accomplish the same result and, as started earlier in this review, its "prompt, work, prompt, work" approach means the user is trapped interacting with it rather than entering some information and then being free to walk away. The installer also misses some popular features, such as setting the first user up as an admin, which other installers will usually provide. However, I will also acknowledge that the trade-off has been that Debian's installer has worked and worked consistently for years, largely unchanged. If you ever installed Debian 6 then you can install Debian 12 using the same steps in the same order, on either a graphical interface or a text console. The experience has been predictable and reliable.
That changed this time around. This is the first time in nearly 20 years of running Debian that I've had the installer fail, and fail consistently. I tried different test environments, different boot modes, different desktops, different package mirrors, and the installer (both the graphical version and the text version) failed repeatedly, when run from both the net-install and DVD official media. It was increasingly feeling like a farce, to be honest. However, when I switched to the semi-official live media the installer worked without any problems in the same test environments. This feels backwards and raises some questions about the testing process in my mind.
Using Debian is always a mixed experience for me because the distribution does so many things well - with a wide range of CPU support, flexible roles, long-term support, and great stability during its life span. On the other hand, Debian makes the user do more manual work to accomplish virtually everything, feels uncoordinated, and blandly vanilla. It feels awkward and the GNOME edition feels heavy compared to most other top-notch Linux distributions. I still like Debian on servers, but it feels uncomfortable on my desktop, like a suit that doesn't quite fit properly and I need to hem myself.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was a Lenovo desktop with the following specifications:
- Processor: Hex-core Intel i5-10400 CPU @ 2.90GHz
- Storage: Western Digital 1TB hard drive
- Memory: 8GB of RAM
- Networking: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 wired network card, Realtek RTL8822CE 802.11ac PCIe wireless adapter
- Display: Intel CometLake-S GT2
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Visitor supplied rating
Debian has a visitor supplied average rating of: 8.9/10 from 388 review(s).
Have you used Debian? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Debian's releases updated Hurd port, Ubuntu 22.10 nears end of life, FreeBSD turns 30
The Debian project maintains a few branches outside of its main, GNU/Linux distribution. Debian also maintains an operating system built with the same userland tools while running the GNU Hurd kernel. This alternative platform, running the Hurd microkernel, uses the same package manager, command line tools, and some of the same desktop software as its Linux counterpart. The developers of Debian GNU/Hurd have announced a new release on the heels of Debian 12: "It is with huge pleasure that the Debian GNU/Hurd team announces the release of Debian GNU/Hurd 2023. This is a snapshot of Debian 'Sid' at the time of the stable Debian 'Bookworm' release (June 2023), so it is mostly based on the same sources. It is not an official Debian release, but it is an official Debian GNU/Hurd port release." The new Hurd branch runs on i386 (and compatible) processors and reportedly runs about 65% of the software built for Debian GNU/Linux.
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Ubuntu 22.10 was released in October of last year and this interim release (along with its community editions) are quickly approaching the end of their supported lives. People running version 22.10 are advised to upgrade to continue receiving support. "Ubuntu announced its 22.10 (Kinetic Kudu) release almost 9 months ago, on October 20, 2022, and its support period is now nearing its end. Ubuntu 22.10 will reach end of life on July 20, 2023. At that time, Ubuntu Security Notices will no longer include information or updated packages for Ubuntu 22.10. The supported upgrade path from Ubuntu 22.10 is via Ubuntu 23.04." Upgrade instructions are provided in the distribution's documentation.
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The FreeBSD project reached a milestone this month, turning 30 years old this June. The operating system, which powers many of the world's servers and gaming consoles, is a decedent of the original Unix operating systems and continues to be maintained and include new, modern features such as jails, virtual machines, and native ZFS support. The FreeBSD Foundation announced: "It's June and we're celebrating FreeBSD's 30th anniversary! It was 30 years ago that the name FreeBSD was chosen for this incredible open source project that is continuing to grow, innovate and lead. The Foundation has been proudly supporting FreeBSD for over 23 years, with some of our team members participating in the FreeBSD Project in the early days."
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Tips and Tricks (by Jesse Smith) |
A safer way to use dd
A common practise in the Linux community, as DistroWatch readers are well aware, is writing disk images (such as ISO and IMG files) to removable media, such as USB thumb drives. Almost anyone who has installed a Linux distribution (or other operating system) has found themselves transferring a disk image or ISO file to a thumb drive.
There are several tools which can help complete this transfer of data to a thumb drive. UNetbootin, Fedora Media Writer, and balena Etcher are three fine examples of utilities which will transfer ISO files to thumb drives. While these are all popular, useful tools, another commonly recommended standard - a tool that works across all Linux distributions and flavours of BSD - is the dd command line program.
The dd utility is virtually universal in the Linux and BSD communities, it has a fairly simple syntax; we just need to provide the name of the file we want to transfer and the destination. The destination is typically seen as the lone tricky part of the process. The dd command is simple-minded in its behaviour and contains no checks or verification that the destination we specify makes sense. The dd command does not care if the destination we provide is a thumb drive, our main hard drive, a file, or a floppy disk. The dd command will simply start copying bytes from one place to another, blindly overwriting any data at the destination.
This behaviour has resulted in the dd command earning its nick name: data destroyer.
When we specify the proper destination, everything will go according to plan. However, anyone who uses dd regularly will likely make a typo or mistake at some point and send a file to, for example, /dev/sdc instead of /dev/sdd and then their home directory will disappear! In short: the dd command is incredibly useful and powerful, but also a bit risky to use.
Because I use dd on a regular basis, nearly every day, I am at high risk for a data-loss accident. An accident which has not, to date, happened. A few years ago I started thinking about how to guard against making mistakes with dd and came up with a few solutions.
There are a number of ways a person can check to make sure it makes sense to write a file to a specific storage location using dd. We can check for a certain device name using the lsscsi command. We can check for a size range of the destination with the lsblk command. Verifying a device has one of a specific set of brand names or is under a certain size can certainly help us avoid overwriting the wrong drive. These are good technical checks to perform, but they do not protect us from a typo.
I took what I feel is a more flexible, more universal approach to not overwriting my important information: I wrote a wrapper for dd which checks to make sure no part of the target device is mounted.
In other words, if my main hard drive (the one containing my operating system's root filesystem) is /dev/sda and I try to write an ISO file to /dev/sda or /dev/sda1, my wrapper will abort. Likewise, if I try to write to /dev/sdb which contains my /home mount point, the process will bail out and warn me what I'm trying to do is a bad idea. However, if I try to write an ISO file to a drive with no mounted partitions, then dd will run with the assumption what it is doing is safe.
How did I set up this wrapper around dd? I created a simple shell script called safe-dd. The script looks like this:
#!/bin/bash
# This script invokes the dd command to copy a file. It first checks to make sure
# the target file (of) is not mounted.
# Warning, this may not work with device names containing a space.
if [ $# -lt 2 ]
then
echo "Please provide an input file and an output file."
exit 1
fi
start=$(echo $@ | sed 's/of=/\^/')
end=$(echo $start | cut -f 2 -d '^')
target=$(echo $end | cut -f 1 -d ' ')
echo "Checking $target"
df | grep $target
if [ $? -eq 0 ]
then
echo "Output file $target is mounted. Refusing to continue."
exit 2
fi
echo "Executing nice dd $@ status=progress"
nice /usr/bin/dd $@ status=progress
sync
echo "Finished writing and sync."
How does it work? The first few lines do a quick sanity check to make sure we have at least two parameters, presumably a file we want to use and a destination device where the file will be sent.
The echo, sed and cut commands which follow look for a parameter that specifies the destination location (also known as the output file, or of). When we find this parameter, it is saved in the variable $target.
The script then uses the df command to get a list of all mounted filesystems and uses grep to see if our destination matches any mounted locations. In other words, if we ask safe-dd to write to the location /dev/sda and /dev/sda1 is where our root filesystem is located, the line "df | grep $target" will spot the match and the script will not continue.
The last block of the script tells the user it is going to proceed and then launches the dd command, passing along the parameters we've specified. The script then forces a filesystem synchronization, meaning data intended to be written to a thumb drive should actually be written and not simply cached. The script then announces its work is finished.
The script isn't perfect, there are other checks and verification steps which could be performed. It could be made more robust. However, for most people in most circumstances, this script will act as a friendly wrapper around the dd command and prevent data loss (such as overwriting a mounted drive) in most scenarios. This means I can run a command, such as the one below, and not worry about it causing damage:
sudo safe-dd if=Fedora-38-Workstation.iso of=/dev/sdc
Something else I'd like to acknowledge is this script is quite verbose, both in its approach and its output. It prints out long-ish error messages, it has comments, it tells the user what it is going to do before it does anything, and then explicitly reports when it is finished. The script even evokes the dd command with the "status=progress" parameter which causes dd to display progress information instead of simply working quietly, which is its default behaviour. Most Linux/BSD/Unix tools are quiet when they are working properly and silent behaviour can be achieved by deleting the lines in the script which begin with the word "echo".
Again, the effort here has been to make the script friendly and verbose - good for most circumstances where we want to write to a thumb drive - rather than purely efficient or ideal for all situations. It's been a useful tool for me and it has felt nice to have a layer of protection between myself and a typo which would wipe my computer's hard drive. Especially since I typically use dd several times per week.
For added protection I have added the following line to my ~/.bashrc file. This sets up an alias which catches each time I try to run plain dd and runs my safe-dd script instead:
alias dd='safe-dd'
So far this has kept my hard drive safe and provided reliable image writing to my thumb drives.
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Additional tips can be found in our Tips and Tricks archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Voyager Live 12
Voyager Live is a project which offers Debian- and Ubuntu-based flavours of a desktop distribution. The project has announced the release of Voyager Live 12, which is based on Debian 12 "Bookworm". The new version focuses on improving the availability of firmware for fresh installs. "With numerous Themes and Wallpapers and essential software and many other new features to discover like Scrcpy to have your smartphone screen on your PC. Debian 12 'Bookworm' contains over 11,089 new packages, bringing the total to over 64,419 packages. Most of the software included with Debian has been updated, with over 6,296 packages removed because they are old or obsolete. The installer on Debian has received various enhancements which have resulted in better hardware support and exciting new features. Take, for example, improved handling of proprietary (non-free) firmware for hardware, which now makes it easier to load these firmwares from the installer. This was made possible through the inclusion of Debian APT 2.6 which allows for better handling of non-free firmware on Debian. So non-free firmware binaries will now be enabled by default when it is verified that they are needed. These changes will allow better support for different hardware running on non-free firmware, especially GPUs and Wi-Fi adapters." Additional information is provided in the project's release announcement.
risiOS 38
risiOS is a Fedora-based Linux distribution which runs the GNOME desktop environment and includes a number of graphical setup and tweak tools. the project has published risoOS 38 which seeks to improve the first-boot experience. "One of the most prominent features of risiOS 38 is the new first boot experience. With our re imagined Quick Setup tool, setting up risiOS is now quicker and more efficient, with a much simpler interface. This allows you to easily set up third-party drivers and repositories, as well as install any applications you may need. In addition, risiOS 38 features a complete redesign of risiWelcome, now with Libadwaita. risiTweaks has undergone a complete redesign. It now features a clean UI with a brand new look and feel. The previous extensions tool built into risiTweaks has been removed, and stock GNOME extensions is now shipped instead. This change has allowed for a more stable and streamlined experience for users. rTheme has been released in version 1.0. The API is now stable and there have been significant improvements to GNOME Shell support. The plugin system has also been improved, and several bugs have been fixed. This allows users to customize their desktop with ease, giving them more control over the look and feel of their system." Additional details and screenshots can be found in the project's release announcement.
risiOS 38 -- Running the GNOME desktop
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SparkyLinux 7.0
SparkyLinux is a lighweight distribution based on Debian. The project has published a new stable release, SparkyLinux 7.0, which is based on Debian 12. The new release features several key package upgrades. "Sparky 7.0 'Orion Belt' has been released. It is based on and fully compatible with Debian 12 'Bookworm'. Highlights: based on Debian stable 12 'Bookworm'; all packages updated from Debian 'Bookworm' and Sparky 'Orion Belt' repos as of June 15, 2023; Linux kernel 6.1.27 LTS as default (6.3.8 and 5.15.117 LTS in Sparky unstable repos); Firefox 102.12.0ESR (114.0.1 in Sparky repos); Thunderbird 102.12.0; VLC 3.0.18; LibreOffice 7.4.5; Calamares 3.2.61; KDE Plasma 5.27; LXQt 1.2.0; MATE 1.26; Xfce 4.18; Openbox 3.6.1; Sparky APTus AppCenter 20230530; ntp replaced by systemd-timesyncd; amd64 ISO images have been improved - they can be boot on machines with UEFI motherboards with Secure Boot on." Additional information is provided in the project's release announcement.
SysLinuxOS 12
Franco Conidi has announced the release of SysLinuxOS 12, a major new release of the project's Debian-based live distribution designed for system administrators and system integrators: "Following the release of Debian 12 'Bookworm', SysLinuxOS 12 is now available with several enhancements and new features that set it apart from Debian 12. Some of these improvements are under the hood, providing additional functionality. SysLinuxOS 12 comes with the MATE desktop environment as the primary option, while the version with GNOME will be released later. In terms of aesthetics, two Conky widgets have been integrated; they not only enhance the desktop's visual appeal but also provide useful information about PC performance, network status (including private and public IP addresses), and running processes. Additionally, the menu has been reorganized based on the utility of the programs. A new menu called Networking has been introduced, which includes tools for network analysis. These tools are primarily GUI-based, while command-line alternatives are also available. MATE offers a simple, organized and fast desktop environment." Here is the full release announcement.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
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Torrent Corner statistics:
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Do you use scripts or aliases to protect yourself?
In this week's Tips and Tricks column we talked about creating a safe wrapper around the dd command. A common practise a lot of courses and administrators recommend is putting wrappers or aliases in place of destructive commands. A common example is to make the file remove command (rm) an alias for "rm -i" which makes the command interactive and avoids accidentally deleting files.
While this practise is common and often recommended, the trap people can fall into is forgetting that not every system they use will intercept destructive commands using an alias or script, leading to a false sense of security.
This week we would like to hear whether your system is set up with aliases or scripts to intercept dangerous commands, such as dd and rm.
You can see the results of our previous poll on alternative editions of openSUSE in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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Do you wrap destructive commands in aliases/scripts?
| Yes - I use aliases: | 71 (8%) |
| Yes - I use scripts: | 28 (3%) |
| Yes - I use both: | 89 (9%) |
| No - I do not intercept destructive commands: | 756 (80%) |
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| Website News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- Kumander Linux. Kumander Linux is a Debian-based Linux distribution featuring the Xfce desktop. The distribution is designed to look like legacy versions of Microsoft Windows in an attempt to ease the transition process for new users.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 26 June 2023. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Weekly Archive and Article Search pages. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Debian (by Pumpino on 2023-06-19 00:55:00 GMT from Australia)
I have nothing against Debian, but I've never found it to be any more stable than other distros, despite its conservative approach. As a result, I figure there's no point using a distro with old versions of software for two years and so I use Manjaro or Mint instead.
2 • writing disk images (by Farhaad 1992 on 2023-06-19 02:50:01 GMT from Iran)
I use GNOME Disks (gnome-disk-utility) to writing disk images, of course it writes just to the whole disk (e.g. /dev/sda) not partitions (e.g. /dev/sda#), it is safe and easy-to-use
3 • Destructive Commands (by Trihexagonal on 2023-06-19 03:10:37 GMT from United States)
I don't obfuscate commands like dd because I'm the only one using my computers. I use the command and don't want shorthand substitutes to muddy the waters.
Typos are nothing when invoking a command. It's either spelled right and executes, spelled wrong and will generate a command not found comment or you don't know what your doing being the only other option.
4 • Nope. (by uz64 on 2023-06-19 03:41:24 GMT from United States)
If I was dumb enough to run rm on a file that I didn't want to lose, then I probably deserve the consequences. In that case, lesson learned, I'll just deal with it, and hopefully that won't happen again. Besides, that's what backups are for, plus anything I don't want to lose on accident is typically written to external storage and not plugged in all the time. In that case, when working with data on such media, I'm extra careful--so disasters like that don't typically happen. I didn't like how Windows was dumbed down to protect me against myself; same could be said for why I wouldn't dumb down my Linux distro for the same reason.
5 • nope. (by Titus Groan on 2023-06-19 04:25:33 GMT from New Zealand)
it seems that the distro I use has aliased rm to rm -i as it always asked for "y/N" before executing.
for this one I dont mind.
It will definitely be my fault if blindly accept and any consequences.
6 • Debian (by Chuck on 2023-06-19 04:33:17 GMT from Australia)
My experience differs somewhat. The netinst.iso installed flawlessly (KVM). It may be a later release. Mine is from 6/10. Guided install gave me the option of LVM or LVM encrypted, although I stayed with ext4. Sudo can be enabled from the installer by simply leaving the root password blank. It seems odd to me to opt for the Gnome desktop and then complain about the way it's set up and the required mouse travel. I unchecked the Debian desktop environment and opted for Plasma. I got a nice looking desktop, much nicer than previous Debian defaults.
Oddly, I also got Gnome on Wayland and X11, along with Gnome Classic, even though I left Gnome unchecked. But even with the extra baggage, it only takes 7.7 GB on disk.
7 • dd (by nsp0323 on 2023-06-19 05:04:39 GMT from Sweden)
Thanks for sharing your wrapper arround dd, I really appreciate when people do this. Although, I won't be using it myself, I see the value/use case for it. One minor suggestion would be to use bin/sh instead of bin/bash
8 • Debian install (by EH2 on 2023-06-19 05:06:38 GMT from Mexico)
Okay that's weird. I installed Debian 12 successfully from the installer (not the live ISO!) on an old computer last week, with the xfce DE just like one of the listed attempts in the review, and the installer ran flawlessly without giving me any error messages, and it worked perfectly once it was done, doing everything I expected it to. Not so sure what happened to Jesse for the installer to fail that bad.
9 • Debian 12 (by mikel on 2023-06-19 05:21:51 GMT from Germany)
If you want to avoid Debian being "not a particularly pleasant experience on a desktop computer" choose KDE Plasma. A perfectly pleasant experience out of the box.
10 • Debian 12 (by Romane on 2023-06-19 05:31:16 GMT from Australia)
Interesting experience, Jesse.
Have been running Debian (Testing) for a few years now (from when Lenny just made Testing), and have never run into the circumstance that you describe. Obviously, something not quite right with the install media you used.
Now, for various reasons, seem to do a clean / new install every few weeks. To make life simpler for me, the install is without any desktop environment (just the base system, easy to do with the Debian installer). Have written a script to run at the first boot (no desktop environment, so only to a command line) which does everything for me, including installing my preferred DE (Plasma). Seems to work fine every time, and the waiting time remaining is all my slow internet connection (don't have use for a fast connection, nor the funds),
Clearly this is nothing like trying to install "stable", but the Testing install media installs / installed Bookworm (don't know if it still does or now heads for Trixie-land). So the script has to set up the Testing repositories as well as enable the osprober capacity - all of which is easily written into a script, as well as obtaining needed firmware using isenkram-cli during the running of the script
Merely a thought - install just the base system, then on reboot (CLI only) install your preferred DE. From there, a simple reboot to get into the DE, and Bob's your aunty
11 • some commands called destructive (by Dr.J on 2023-06-19 05:34:20 GMT from Germany)
I generally don't like programs that ask me two or three times if I want to do something (are you really sure? really?) and tell me what I want to do. So why should I build something like that myself?
12 • in addition (by Dr.J on 2023-06-19 05:48:01 GMT from Germany)
It makes no sense to focus on the supposedly obvious, i.e. dangerous commands. Deleting something by accident? So what? There are backups. Have you ever made a mistake when editing certain files, like grub, sudoers, fstab, root password or or or. Working with computers is dangerous... Better you know what you are doing.
13 • Debian 12 (by Station Sixtyseven on 2023-06-19 05:56:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
Strange that the installer failed for the DW tester, I have successful installs from the DVD1 iso that all went entirely without a hitch on three seperate UEFI/Secure boot machine of varying ages. Possibly of note is that none of these machines are multi-boot, just the shiny new (and I think wonderful) Debian 12. A fantastic release!
14 • Why DD? (by Guido on 2023-06-19 06:04:29 GMT from Philippines)
One secure solution could be the gnome-disk-utility, that comes with a GNOME desktop or separate. With this tool you can also flash an ISO. There is for KDE the ISO image writer, too.
15 • Debian 12 (by GT on 2023-06-19 06:26:05 GMT from United States)
I have installed the netiso twice using the Expert/Advanced option and encountered no errors either time. Both attempts installed perfectly. I wonder what the issue could have been for the reviewer?
16 • Debian 12 Install (by R Hoagland on 2023-06-19 06:33:37 GMT from United States)
I've been rolling with Arch or Arch-based for a while and decided to install Debian 12 KDE Plasma on my work laptop this weekend via advanced graphical net install, which was really smooth and easy. I've been really pleased with the results so far. Though I tend to favor net installs based on my previous experience with openSUSE net installs having worked better than the offline media. Everyone's mileage may vary, but it seems like Jesse has had greater than average issues with installations over the last few months. Something like a hard drive or memory issue would explain the problems with both physical and virtual installs.
17 • debian (by chris on 2023-06-19 06:40:12 GMT from South Africa)
The only problem I experienced with installing Debian bookworm was that the drive that I had did not have a swap partition previously used. I had to create partitions for home, efi, and swap to prevent any problems.
18 • dd and cp (by bassoon on 2023-06-19 06:41:17 GMT from Australia)
I remember there was a debate on here a while back about dd - I prefer cp myself for iso writing, and it works every time though I don't know if it is any safer or not (I use it because it's easier to remember for me).
The script looks safe though, will give it a try next time I want to do this.
19 • debian @17 (by chris on 2023-06-19 06:43:46 GMT from South Africa)
oops meant to type root and not home.
20 • Distrowatch installs (by A on 2023-06-19 07:32:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
This particular reviewer seems to have a good proportion of his reviews with installer failures. Like many other commenters here, I've installed Debian 12 on a few machines at this point and had zero trouble. As with a lot of the other failed installs in Jesse's reviews, I wonder if there is some problem with the way he is doing the installs or his particular environment that is causing the issues.
As ever with Jesse, not enough detail is given on the failures to let the reader figure out what's wrong (while unnecessary amounts of detail are given in basic descriptions of eg. well known desktop environments).
21 • debian (by fabio on 2023-06-19 07:33:53 GMT from Italy)
I recently installed debian12 in a virtual machine and in a real laptop
and there was no problem during installation. I used the netinstall
on DVD asking for GNOME. Probably you had problems with your DVD media that was corrupted, or disk space missing in the installation partitions or similar things. I suggest before writing a review based totally on a failure that coud have a local explication to do some checks and verifications. Indeed, i have never experimented about an installation procedure in debian that asks for missing fonts or paper size for the printer.
22 • Debian Calamares (by Amedeo on 2023-06-19 08:15:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have used Debian Live xfce installation image, and the default installer was Calamares. I wonder how you got to use the default Debian installer?
23 • Debian 12 (by Dino on 2023-06-19 09:54:33 GMT from Denmark)
I simply don't get how and why did you have the issue while installing Debian. I installed it at least 10 times with different ISO images (don't ask why), and every single time was a butter-smooth experience.
Debian Bookworm is a really fantastic version, and probably the best Debian that is published in years. Seriously, for me, nothing really beats Debian (and Devuan - sans systemD Debian). It is way more stable and reliable than other distros, including all Debian's children and grandchildren. Yeah, the installer looks a bit oldish, blabla, but it works, and it never lets you down (unless you have a bad ISO image or hardware issues).
Debian Stable is incredible for servers and super stable desktop, while I have yet to have an issue with Testing while running pretty new packages.
24 • Debian 12 (by Papier on 2023-06-19 10:00:06 GMT from Germany)
I installed Debian 12 on several different computers with different architectures (AMD64, ARM64) in the last weeks and months from the DVD via the text installer w/o problems.
Still, I agree with the review that the installers prompt - work - prompt ... cycle is annoying compared to the installer of Fedora. OTOH I can change the filesystem to BTRFS w/o any troubles via Debians installer with a full disk encryption setup w/o any problems.
The other thing which I find annoying is that the Debian DVD installer doesn't remove the DVD source from the sources.list.
Only problems I encountered with the Debian installers in the past concerned WIFI drivers, but with Debian 12 these problems are gone for my limited hardware.
At the end, Debian 11 and Debian 12 are perfect for my needs on desktops and servers, so the installer story is just a minor hiccup, although I understand it might be daunting for new users.
In the end: A big thank you and shout out to the Debian community for a brilliant release with Debian 12. Up to date packages and I encountered no problem at all on my physical and virtual machines!
25 • Debian 12 (by Daniel on 2023-06-19 10:01:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have done test installations in a virtual machine (QEMU, Arch host) using both the net installation image (Debian installer) and the full KDE live image (Calamares installer), having no problems with either.
Bizarrely sound does not work on the same computer when booting it directly from the live image (it does with a 'Frankendebian' like LMDE 5), only when running Debian in the VM. Sound works flawlessly on my ancient (2006 vintage) laptop with the Debian 12 KDE live image, so I think there must be some hardware quirk in the desktop system. That said, sound and everything else work as expected with Spiral Linux (Debian 11 base) on bare metal in a live session on the selfsame computer.
26 • Installer issues (by DaveB on 2023-06-19 10:15:30 GMT from Australia)
This is meant in a friendly way - although it may come across as a rant.
I agree with 'A' (comment 20 above). These continuing problems installing both big name & smaller distro's can not be the fault of the distro's. This is effectively proven by the fact you cannot install the usually super-stable and well-tested Debian (which unlike the majority of others does not use Calamares - which removes that variable).
Until the issue is resolved, can I please ask that in reviews you do not mention the installation issues you encounter. A lot of people rely on your reviews, and 'installation issues' is going to put people off trying those distro's. The more well known distro's can probably handle it, but this is a problem for the smaller distro's, where your review might be the only independent review they have.
Thank you :)
27 • Debian 12 installer (by Morton on 2023-06-19 10:40:50 GMT from Poland)
I would like to report that I had no issues with Debian installer using debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso on eight installations on five different laptops and desktops in graphical expert mode. I booted ISO each time from Ventoy USB.
About group - if you skip creating root password the user is automatically added to sudo group.
28 • Debian (by lamegaptop on 2023-06-19 10:46:12 GMT from United States)
I was a bit dismayed to see the poor review of Debian. I experienced a similar issue recently and it involved a couple of distros, Debian and Void I think. In my case it was a bad thumb drive.
I've installed Debian 12 many times with netinstall and the mini.iso, with no issues, once I corrected my hardware problem. I don't beleve that there are any issues with the installer. This latest Debian is rock solid.
I won't comment on Gnome. Openbox for the win!
29 • dd (by marty on 2023-06-19 10:56:14 GMT from United States)
I have used balena Etcher at least 5 times to write to a USB drive without any problems. Also it is a great feature that the program can do it without having to first decompress the download.
30 • dd (by marty on 2023-06-19 10:58:30 GMT from United States)
I forgot to mention that Etcher checks the written image for errors when finished.
31 • dd wrapper (by Untimly on 2023-06-19 11:12:40 GMT from Sweden)
I've considered a script like that for a while, I write ISOs to flash drives all the time and will probably make a mistake one day. While investigating I ran across the findmnt utility, you just pass it a device and it will return with an error code if it's not mounted or will show you the mount point. It's a lot simpler than using cut/sed/grep
32 • Debian install (by kc1di on 2023-06-19 11:22:35 GMT from United States)
I installed Debian 12 (Bookworm) from the net install without problems, but when I tried to install from the live install there were problems, biggest one was that it install an incomplete /etc/apt/sources.list and that made it impossible to upgrade the system and unable to install some packages.
Also when I installed the cinnamon DE it would not allow me to run vivaldi web browser no matter how I installed it. Had no problems with running it when I installed KDE , didn't try gnome or other DE's.
So back to Mint here for now. Also might add the battery drain and ram useage was higher than normal even when I had tlp configured.
JMHO.
33 • Debian installer issue (by Denethor on 2023-06-19 12:01:10 GMT from Bosnia and Herzegovina)
I had similar experience with Jessie while installing debian 11 and devuan 4 on a old Asus eeePC. But it turned out to be due to my ssd, which was unfortunate since I had only recently upgrade the hard disk. @Jessie, I suggest you look at your disk. My ssd is still working but in a very strange manner, from time to time it just stops writing... I have to admit though, that the debian installer did not report this correctly. Similarly as Jessie's error messages. Anyway, I believe that Debian is the best general purpose distribution and the most important one for the interests of the open source community (Red Hat important only to corporations and their agenda).
34 • Debian 12 installer again (by Morton on 2023-06-19 12:12:53 GMT from Poland)
In addition to my comment 27 above. Due to many prompt-screens of the installer it is highly flexible. Try in any other installer to setup OS with new root LUKS partition without LVM on multi-boot GPT disk in BIOS mode. I did that without switching to terminal in one session. It's good to have the installer not going with modern tendency "We know better what users want / need without asking them".
35 • Debian, dd (by Rick on 2023-06-19 12:15:55 GMT from United States)
As with others here, Debian installer worked as advertised. Not a single hiccup.
@22, At boot there is are options to run live or start the installer. If you choose to install you get the Debian graphical installer.
@29, One plus for Balena Etcher here, for the same reasons. Also seems faster, shows progress and makes it less likely to write to the wrong destination.
36 • Debian install (by Mike on 2023-06-19 12:29:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
My first install on mac book air early 2015 failed because there is not ethernet card meaning the installer could not connect to servers. It was all red that installation had failed. In the second attempt I didn't use graphical installation, and this time everything was smooth and fast. Happy to be back to Debian.
37 • Debian "plus a few small games" (by Carlos Felipe on 2023-06-19 12:45:23 GMT from Brazil)
Why so many games preinstalled? Why?
I don't understand why Debian brings so many small games preinstalled.
38 • debian (by zlatko on 2023-06-19 12:47:12 GMT from Moldova)
Debian 12 is a step into the right direction, the proprietary firmware finally has its own repository, which is cool. The unified .iso files are cool too.
Maybe Debian 13 and futher will start to acknowledge the existence of Ubuntu ?
Ubuntu has a 2 year release model, and is BIG distro,
While Debian has unpredictable release model (1year 9 month, 2years 3 month) between releases.
It means that when Ubuntu picks packages for the next release, they at some point pick them from Debian Nightly, freeze them, and maintain them for 5 years.
While Debian totally ignores Ubuntu developers work, and do the same thing at some point of time, pick packages, freeze them and maintain completely unrelated to Ubuntu packages for 5 years.
Where is the logic in all of that ???
Wouldn't it be easier for Debian 13 to finally have a fixed date release in 24.04 and for Ubuntu to work with Debian and coordinate with them ?
And so there is more time and men/women power to test Debian Installer ?
Definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again.
39 • Debian (by Rickg on 2023-06-19 12:51:16 GMT from United States)
I can see why the install of some "waiting list" distributions might fail, but I have never had a Debian installation fail. This makes me wonder about the high number of install failures seen here?
40 • Debian install (by kksheth on 2023-06-19 14:24:31 GMT from India)
Net-install of 12th (debian-12.0.0-amd64-netinst) failed in Virtualbox.
41 • Failed Installs and the SSD (by Otis on 2023-06-19 14:37:06 GMT from United States)
Yep. @33 I pulled my hair out for hours trying to understand why a nice fresh install of Devuan was failing, and at different places during the installation on several tries. I finally started googling around and found the obvious.
I don't know if Jessie uses the SSD I had; it was only 13 months old and had only been used for Windows then covered that with several other Linux distros. Not exactly infant mortality but too soon for sure. SSDs are a bit different in that respect to spinning hard drives I guess. I had hard drives work fine for years.
42 • Debian installer fail (by Head_on_a_Stick on 2023-06-19 14:56:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
@Jesse: why did you not switch to TTY4 to see the actual error message?
Are you aware of the installer log? Why did you not check that?
Did you consider reporting this to Debian? Given that you make money by talking about them here the least you could do is give them some proper feedback. That would help avoid people considering you a parasite.
43 • Install log (by Jesse on 2023-06-19 15:13:15 GMT from Canada)
> "Why did you not switch to TTY4 to see the actual error message?"
I did. Not sure why you'd assume I didn't.
> "Are you aware of the installer log? Why did you not check that?"
I'm aware and of course I did check it. The log was unhelpful.
> "Did you consider reporting this to Debian?"
No. The release was already out there.
> "Given that you make money by talking about them here the least you could do is give them some proper feedback."
I think you misunderstand my role here. I'm writing a review, not a hired QA consultant for Debian.
> "That would help avoid people considering you a parasite."
I've never heard someone call me that and I'm pretty sure no one who is familiar with my work would. Especially since a lot of my work in the open source community involves software going into Debian packages and coordinating with Debian developers.
@41: "I don't know if Jessie uses the SSD"
I wasn't using an SSD drive in my main test machine or for the VM. It uses a spinning HDD. There is an SSD in my laptop, but it's running fine.
Side note: A few people have suggested various reasons why the installer might have failed. Usually suggesting corrupted install media or a malfunctioning hard drive. I have a few reasons for thinking none of the above are the problem:
1. The ISOs and install media passed their checksums. Since the VMs I used for part of the review draw directly from the ISO (not a thumb drive) they are dealing with a verified good file and not subject to USB thumb drive corruption.
2. I tried Debian on multiple systems.
3. SMART tools show no problems with the hard drives.
4. The live Debian media worked on the same equipment. It seems unlikely a corrupted/damaged drive would fail a dozen times in a row when using the official install media and then magically work twice in a row when switching to the live media.
5. I also installed two other Debian-based projects (Ubuntu 23.04 and MX Linux) on this same machine this week with zero problems. Since the live Debian media, Ubuntu, and MX all worked flawlessly and the Debian media passed its checksum verification, it's highly unlikely file or drive corruption is the issue across multiple machines, on both physical and VM environments.
I know there is a small element of the community that doesn't like to accept reports of problems with their preferred distributions, but blaming the reviewer (I've performed more successful installs of Debian than years I've been alive), or the install images (when the review points out they're verified), or blaming the equipment (when other related distros run on the same machines) doesn't benefit anyone.
44 • dd script (by Bobbie Sellers on 2023-06-19 15:44:01 GMT from United States)
On PCLinuxOS the tool used to create boot-table Flash Drives is "ddcopy". Using both image files as in EasyOS and iso files. It has some other functions as well but I use it thru Dolphin
selecting the file I am interested in having on a FD and ddcopy insists on root password at
one point and re-selecting the file from a list of recent files and the medium. It will also format media and the media can be given a name.
45 • Debian GNU/HURD (by Bear Dogg on 2023-06-19 15:45:44 GMT from United States)
The one thing holding GNU/HURD back is the lack of a 64-bit kernel. I mean yean Debian GNU/HURD as it is can bring new life to aging 32-bit computers, but there are some out there who have computers with over 4 GB RAM and want a 64-bit version in order to be able to fully utilize their system resources.
If GNU doesn't release a 64-bit kernel soon, they risk slipping further and further into irrelevancy.
46 • Debian (by Jay on 2023-06-19 15:53:31 GMT from Luxembourg)
I've experimented with Bookworm (as Sid).
Debian offers a wide range of packages but because of the comparative age of them, I refuse to use it as a desktop distro. I feel similarly about Ubuntu (unless I need the latest LXC/LXD, in which case I'll choose Ubuntu over Debian). I see both as server distros, not desktop ones.
In situations where I use Debian or Ubuntu (desktop installs for others), I prefer using derivative distros because many offer extra value beyond the basics. (I feel Linux Mint is a better choice for a mainstream user than either 'raw' Debian or Ubuntu).
Debian and Ubuntu have value in specialty distros and I'll happily use Siduction or Sparky in specific projects, but I feel Arch derivatives and NixOS are better suited as my daily drivers than Debian or Ubuntu are.
On specific servers, I'm experimenting with replacing Debian and Ubuntu with Alpine Linux.
47 • Failed Installs and the SSD (by Otis on 2023-06-19 16:10:14 GMT from United States)
@43 Thinking back to that (easily fixable by replacement) issue I was having with the fairly new Kingston SSD during distro installations, I remember singing the praises, here and in other venues, of Manjaro because it was successful on that same drive. I ended up taking it out of service though just out of fear.
Heck I don't know exactly why SSDs can fail like that one did on Devuan and Bodhi back then, heck again I don't even know exactly why spinners fail over time.
The feedback around the net is that an SSD is just a gang of chips and gangs of chips lose the ability to retain those micro voltages we call data from time to time. Nothing on that system (mother) board will last forever. When I read the Debian review that was my first thought; that Jessie's SSD was doing what mine did (not being wholly cognizant of the other factors mentioned in post 43 there).
48 • Debian 12 (by Andy Prough on 2023-06-19 15:51:40 GMT from United States)
I find it interesting that so many comments here are so focused on Debian's failures to install for Jesse, despite the fact that he did get a working installation and despite the fact that the installer failures were only the first small part of this review of an overall poor and low quality release. What is more concerning is how bloated the installed distro is and how many poor choices the Debian developers have made. Thank you Jesse for pointing these issues out, I will not be upgrading any of my Debian-based systems for quite a few months until the Debian team gets serious about improving this release.
49 • Debian installation (by eznix on 2023-06-19 16:57:28 GMT from United States)
I used the debian-12.0.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso to install the Xfce desktop on two computers without issue. I have used the Debian live-build tool to create several respins that contain the Debian installer and the Calamares installer. Over the past week I have installed and built Debian several dozen times. Each and every install was flawless (not counting my own mistakes customizing the Calamares settings).
50 • @48 (by EH2 on 2023-06-19 17:00:29 GMT from Mexico)
As someone else said, these reviews might discourage people who want to try Linux from going for it if they see a review like this one and notice a bunch of issues that are not representative of the overall experience reported by other users, especially considering that this seems to be a pattern with Jesse. If I were the one reviewing I'd probably wonder if there's something wrong with my setup - most of the time I run into issues I'm not following the recommendations to the letter, like for example when I boot the installer/live ISO via Ventoy (which works for a lot of distros! but not all, or at least not right away).
51 • setting up admin user (by eznix on 2023-06-19 17:05:55 GMT from United States)
"The installer also misses some popular features, such as setting the first user up as an admin, which other installers will usually provide."
Yet another person that cannot read the words written on the installation screens of the Debian install. When picking a root password, leave blank to add the user to the sudo group. It's been that way for the better part of a decade.
52 • Installer (by Jesse on 2023-06-19 17:12:07 GMT from Canada)
@51: "Yet another person that cannot read the words written on the installation screens of the Debian install. When picking a root password, leave blank to add the user to the sudo group. It's been that way for the better part of a decade."
Weird of you to assume it is down to a lack of reading comprehension. What about people who both want a root account (with password) and also want their first user to have admin access? Why can't I have both? Other installers usually allow users to have both admin access and a root account with password access.
53 • A pattern indeed... (by kenjite on 2023-06-19 18:26:59 GMT from United States)
From the past 3 months of Distrowatch weekly:
The first time I tried to install GetFreeOS I walked away while the installer was working and, when I returned, the screen had locked (due to an idle timeout). When I tried to unlock the screen (without a password) it seemed to restore my session, but then the desktop crashed.
riscOS - The first time the installer finished it then displayed a button labelled Restart and locked up. This posed a problem because there is no way to close the window, no desktop from which to issue shutdown commands.
The first time I tried installing Rhino, I walked away while the installer was running and, when I came back, the Calamares window was gone. I wasn't sure if it had completed its work or crashed. When I restarted the computer, the distribution failed to boot, indicating the installer probably crashed.
Eventually, I downloaded enough different ISOs and tried enough different thumb drives to get 23.04 installed. And I'm glad I did - it shows, once again, that anyone who wants a simple, efficient, and easy to use operating system that just works can still depend on Xubuntu.
About halfway through the install process Calamares crashed and left my hard drive in an unbootable state. At this point I'd booted Manjaro media four times and had no success in fetching packages or getting the operating system installed.
As I appreciate your effort, I'd be happy to contribute to a collective fund for bringing your hardware up to an operational level worthy of evaluating and reviewing distros.
54 • @52 admin account (by eznix on 2023-06-19 18:29:29 GMT from United States)
The installer does not miss the feature to give admin access to the first user. It is merely implemented in a way that does not suit you perfectly. There is a difference.
55 • Destructive Commands (by Jeff P. on 2023-06-19 18:49:11 GMT from United States)
Another thing I do do protect myself from myself is to add the "ignorespace" option to the HISTCONTROL environment variable in ~/.bashrc:
export HISTCONTROL=ignoredups:erasedups:ignorespace
This will prevent any typed commands that begin with a space from being added to bash's history.
Now, whenever I run a potentially destructive command ( like rm -rf . ) I will prefix the command with a space, to prevent it from being added to the history. That way I don't carelessly hit the up-arrow key and accidentally run the same command in a different directory. Yep, I've actually made that stupid mistake more than once :-)
56 • @50 - Debian review (by Andy Prough on 2023-06-19 21:19:42 GMT from United States)
> "these reviews might discourage people who want to try Linux from going for it if they see a review like this one and notice a bunch of issues"
I think you should consider trying a different tactic to get Jesse to bless your favorite distro. The one thing I know about him is that he's been at this distro review work for a long time, long enough not to fall for the "but think of how the poor new users might be harmed by your review" ploy. I'm pretty sure he's going to report exactly what happened as it haqppened every time, with every review. He has an excellent track record of being spot-on correct with his reviews.
The much more likely thing to happen is that in a couple of weeks Debian will put out a point release that will fix a number of bugs, including some installer bugs. And then, all these Debian fanatic comments saying, "but you must be wrong because it didn't happen to me" will look pretty silly.
57 • They come and go but Debian remains (by Name (mandatory) on 2023-06-19 21:28:45 GMT from Norway)
@38:
"While Debian totally ignores Ubuntu developers work"
Without Debian there is [and wouldn't have been] no Ubuntu. IDK where you formed this opinion but all I can say is to go outside and touch some grass.
I don't want SNAPS forced on me (Ubuntu).
Distributions come and go, but Debian remains.
58 • Debian 12 and writing disk images to USB thumb drives (by Albert on 2023-06-20 01:06:20 GMT from United States)
When installing Debian 12 I didn't go for the DVD-1.iso but the debian-live-12.0.0-amd64-mate.iso instead. I experienced no issues during installation, but faced two problems later.
When updating the system the procedure was carried out but errors were reported during it. As I wasn't intending to inform about them at that moment I made no recording of them -neither took any screenshot nor wrote them down.
The other thing was relative to the new policy about non-free software now adopted. I had been having great expectations when reading about this upcoming change, I had guessed it could be something akin to what we have on Linux Mint where there is the chance to have the system look for any necessary drivers if appropriate. After this my wifi networks would be recognized and I could connect to either of them. However nothing like this happened with Debian, I couldn't establish any wifi connection as no such a network was visible and the methods I used with Debian 11 were no longer valid with the current 12 release. I only have Ethernet to connect to the internet now.
I think it is only proper for me to admit that even though I've been using linux for some time now -and like it very much- my knowledge of it is rather superficial. I would be grateful for any suggestion about this wifi issue I have.
I will also try the Plasma version to see what it is like.
With regard to the 'dd' command, I don't use it since I discovered the Mintstick tool which I regularly install on any Debian or Ubuntu derivative I use. It is hard to make a mistake with it.
59 • dd script (by NotTheRickestRick on 2023-06-20 01:20:03 GMT from Australia)
Back in the day,before GUI, there was no chooce except to use command line for everything. It is useful to know command line, but for everyday work, why subject yourself to the terminal when gui tools like Diskutility exist which are easy to use and easy to install.
I guess it comes down to how much time people want to waste using terminal commands instead of using GUI apps.
60 • dd (by krell on 2023-06-20 01:39:31 GMT from Thailand)
In modern Linux systems there is no /dev/sda etc except as it refers to an thumb-drive or plugged in device
my SSD is listed as mounted under /dev/nvme01 etc and I think this has been this way
for dome kernel cycles now.
Obviously this mitigated confusion about what u are writing to
Amazing that nobody has picked this up.
61 • Device names (by Jesse on 2023-06-20 04:32:54 GMT from Canada)
@60: "In modern Linux systems there is no /dev/sda etc except as it refers to an thumb-drive or plugged in device"
This is not at all true. The name of the device depends on its type. If you have a spinning hard drive with a classic layout then you will absolutely still see device names like /dev/sda. In fact, I'm writing this on a computer, purchased last year running on a modern kernel, that has root mounted on /dev/sda2.
62 • terminal (by Klaus Schilling on 2023-06-20 08:31:39 GMT from Germany)
I subject myself to the terminal for daily work because I abhor modern GUIs unconditionally. No amount of propaganda by musophiles will deter me.
63 • debian install (by kksheth on 2023-06-20 09:02:03 GMT from India)
As i reported at 40, net install iso fails.
It looks like from the comments above, some are not ready to accept that
linux installation may fail,
debian installation may fail,
review may be correct
reviewer has good hardware,
reviewer has no ill-will
reviewer is not biased.
Why some people cannot digest these things???
64 • dd (by Anthony on 2023-06-20 09:13:01 GMT from Czechia)
@59 "it comes down to how much time people want to waste using terminal commands instead of using GUI apps."
Why on earth waste time and resources on graphical programs, when a terminal-based one does the job? -- just as well, usually faster, and with less resources used. I used to write images with Balena Etcher -- it worked, it looked kinda nice. Then I got tired always hunting down the new versions: search for "Balena Etcher", go to their website, see if there's a newer version, download it, delete the old appimage file, add execution right to the new one... This was an exercise in frustration, and a complete waste of time. (Not to mention the resources that Electron-based cr@p wasted.) By the time I acquired a new version, I could type a dd command at least a dozen times. And that's what I've been doing for years now.
I guess it comes down how much time and resources people want to waste using GUI programs instead of using purpose-built CLI commands. =)
65 • Installing Debian (by qwerty13570 on 2023-06-20 09:55:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
@51:
> When picking a root password, leave it blank to add the user to the sudo
> group. It's been that way for the better part of a decade.
Yes, very useful to any user with limited experience and shorter memory than you assume.
I'm not sure why people object to critical reviews - if you really want such reviews try dedoimodo. Users should really read between the lines on these comments, maybe sticking with the distro supplied with the machine (usually Windows) isn't a bad idea. Linux isn't really for those who just 'want to get things done.'
66 • @21 about checking before you write (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 10:49:44 GMT from France)
"I suggest before writing a review based totally on a failure that coud have a local explication to do some checks and verifications"
Well, I suggest you do the same and do some checks by reading the entire review. Jesse explicitely specified that he tried both the main DVD iso and the net-install iso, that both checksums passed, that 75% of disk space was free when installer failed, that installer needs 1GB of RAM when he has 8GB and that he tried installing on a virtual machine and two different physical machines.
You are right, one needs to do those cheks. But those checks *were* done.
67 • @38 Debian needs to take Ubuntu into account? (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 10:52:32 GMT from France)
Why would Debian need to take into account what others do with their work? What you suggest would be an advantage for Ubuntu, not for Debian. Why change your way of doing things, your philosophy, when you are a non profit organisation, to match the interests of a profitable company??
There is a point in not releasing at a fixed date. The point is in Debian philosophy: "release when it's ready". That means they plan, roughly, one release every 2 years, but for every release the testing period does not run exactly as smoothly as the previous time. Sometimes quirks are easy to solve, and the release is early. Sometimes it's harder, and the release comes later. So what? It does not change much for users, considering support time is adapted accordingly. I reckon it's easier to know when is the new release and when to upgrade when you have a fixed release date, but that is not a big issue. Especially, it's not worth it if it comes at a price of reduced stability because QUICK QUICK WE HAVE TO RELEASE TOMORROW!!! Whenever I try Ubuntu or a derivative, I always use an LTS and I always wait the first point release, so that all the bugs detected *after* the release have been corrected. My experiences with just released *buntus are not that great.
After all, Windows does not have a fixed release schedule. Who is complaining?
"Definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again. "
Like releasing every two years at the same date over and over again? ;)
68 • @46 package age for desktop (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 10:59:27 GMT from France)
@46
"because of the comparative age of them, I refuse to use it as a desktop distro"
I'm curious. Why? Why is it so important to you that every package is not more than a few weeks old? This is a genuine question, as I myself have a radically opposed stance: I refuse to use software that is too recent for my desktop. I need to get things done and I don't have time for hunting the bugs of fresh packages. The older the software, the fewer chances you have of getting bugs thanks to all the testing that went in. Of course, that is only valid if the packages are supported, I will not use Debian 6! Very occasionally, if I need some new functionnality, then I will go for a Flatpak. I have a whopping 2 Flatpaks and one Appimage on my desktop. The rest is perfectly fine and does what I want - I am running a child distro of Debian 10 (oldstable).
So really, genuinely, what do you find in fresh packages that you won't in 1-2 years old packages?
69 • @58 wifi issue (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 11:03:09 GMT from France)
"I would be grateful for any suggestion about this wifi issue I have."
If you are willing to do the research with some assistance, I suggest you ask support with Debian rather than here, it would probbvly yield more accurate results. If you don't have the will/time to do the digging, I simply suggest you turn to one of the many derivatives of Debian Stable which make things easier. My top pick would be Spiral Linux, which only uses Debian repositories, but other fine choices would include MX Linux, Sparky Linux, SolydK (since you wanted to use Plasma).
70 • @65 Linux gets things done (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 11:03:52 GMT from France)
@65
"Linux isn't really for those who just 'want to get things done.'"
Well I disagree, when I want to get things done I pick a Linux distro over Windows 100 times over :) It yields much fewer problems (I didn't say *no* problems...)
71 • Debian (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 11:21:49 GMT from France)
About the installer problems: We need to remember that for every distro, we will see many people able to install flawlessly and others have problems. Even with Debian. Because the world is diverse, the machines we are using are diverse, the software we are using is diverse and complex... So it is *impossible* to test every possible configuration. And sometimes, a bug occurs because on a particular combination of harware and software choices, something fails at the wrong moment and the whole chain breaks. Still, seeing the DVD install fail but the live iso work is puzzling...
Aside from the installer problems, for years now, I have considered Debian to be an excellent base for many kinds of operating systems, but not a good desktop system in itself. Jack of all trades, master of none. Or, rather, not an easy desktop system to use. The default package choices, the desktop configuration, the installer... I think, just like Arch Linux, Debian is build by very talented people who focus on the technical part, make sure the packages work, and consider the user should be the one tuning the distro according to their needs and desires. You don't see anyone thinking Arch is bad because it's difficult to setup/use, right?
This is why Debian has so many derivatives that do what *most* (not all) people would like and do more hand holding to setup a desktop OS. Spiral Linux does an excellent job of being a pure Debian configured to just work as a desktop (technically a respin rather than a distro), antiX/MX Linux/Sparky/Solyd/LMDE and many others add their perks to add more functionnality, Ubuntu uses the packages to build a commercial distro for many use cases, PureOS gives you a desktop OS with only free software... And, well, I think it's fine. Let Debian do what they do, that is building a high quality OS, they do it just fine. There are excellent distros out there which bring just the icing on the cake that we need for a desktop OS.
And we have free software licences to thank for that.
72 • dd alternative (by name on 2023-06-20 13:19:01 GMT from United States)
I use the debian recommended procedure:
cp debian.iso /dev/sdX
sync
note: The image must be written to the whole-disk device and not a partition
see: https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch04s03.en.html
73 • Ventoy = Game Changer (by AloofBrit on 2023-06-20 14:29:40 GMT from United States)
A couple of other users mentioned it up-thread, but when it comes to ISOs on USB stick I can't say enough about how great Ventoy is
Instead of imaging your stick each time, you can copy multiple ISOs onto the drive and then choose which one you want to run at boot
74 • Kumander Linux (by Luca on 2023-06-20 13:23:36 GMT from France)
Although I don't use distros who try to appear like Windows, I think they're good in bringing more people to Linux, making the transition easier for those users. So I'm happy to see Kumander Linux there, which seems very well done.
75 • Kumander (by Friar Tux on 2023-06-20 15:51:01 GMT from Canada)
@74 (Luca) Re: Windows like... He DOES say, on his web site:- "We believe that Microsoft peaked with Windows 7 - we pick up where they left off."
It does look very Windows 7-ish. I believe he uses the XFCE DE. Did a nice job of modifying it. Personally, I believe Microsoft peaked at the cartoonish looking XP, but that's just me. I actually prefer the "Windows like" layout due to muscle memory - my hands/fingers automatically go to where they need to be after years of using that setup - lower taskbar/panel with Start Menu at left corner; upper taskbar/panel with shortcuts to very frequently used apps/programs**; program Minimize, Restore, and Exit buttons on right side of titlebar; etc.. Honestly though, with a little effort and knowledge, you can pretty well change any DE to look like Windows. I use the OneStepBack theme, by Jeanne-Pierre Bucciol for the nostalgic Windows 95/98 look. It's not EXACTLY the same but close, and more to me liking, and it works beautifully on my Linux Mint/Cinnamon laptop.
I definitely agree with Luca that Windows like GUIs do bring people over to Linux due to the familiarity with what they're used to. Once bitten by the Linux bug - er... penguin - you tend to play with none conventional (Windows like) setups and branch out from there. At least... that's my story.
** On Windows, way back when, I used a program called WinExt to place an extra taskbar at the top of the screen.
76 • Windows like Linux? (by Kazlu on 2023-06-20 16:16:53 GMT from France)
Although I agree it helps to have a similar interface as Windows to ease the transition, the risk is that if a distro looks really like Windows, beginners will expect the OS to behave exactly like Windows. Problems might occur when they need to install software!
I think it's good to look familiar but different enough to remind you that you are using something different. Good thing is, it's not hard to find something like this.
People adapted to Android/iOS, it's easier to adapt to Linux...
77 • @56 (by EH2 on 2023-06-20 16:51:16 GMT from Mexico)
Buddy, my first time even touching Debian was the day before this review was posted, and I had no problems with it at all. Maybe consider that some of us are just commenting on a pattern we've seen emerge of a reviewer continuously running into the same issues that many people in the audience cannot replicate, and we're not "fanatics" of anything. I myself have only used Linux for like, a year and a half or so - would I be considered a fanatic simply if I say that I wouldn't go back?
Like, when it's an actual widespread issue like with installing Manjaro a few versions back, yes, it's a fair assessment, can't fault the first person to post about it. But if I were having issues installing multiple distros on a device when most other people have no problem? I'd be trying to troubleshoot that device before blaming it on the software.
78 • @38 Debian & Ubuntu (by GT on 2023-06-20 17:12:43 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu is based on Debian, so it is on Ubuntu to coordinate with Debian if they feel the need to do so. It is not Debian's responsibility to coordinate with those that build atop their work. Whatever version of programs Ubuntu chooses to include in their LTS releases is their decision and responsibility to maintain. How does Debian benefit at all by getting involved with Ubuntu's packaging choices?
79 • "pattern..." (by Otis on 2023-06-20 18:14:28 GMT from United States)
@77 You might want to re-read @43 (from that post):
2. I tried Debian on multiple systems.
3. SMART tools show no problems with the hard drives.
4. The live Debian media worked on the same equipment. It seems unlikely a corrupted/damaged drive would fail a dozen times in a row when using the official install media and then magically work twice in a row when switching to the live media.
80 • Debian (by David Salyers on 2023-06-20 20:11:29 GMT from United States)
I used Debian netiso - regular type install for XFCE desktop on my smaller laptop with limited memory and Expert/Advanced install for GNOME on my higher powered laptop. Both installed flawlessly. This makes me wonder if the reviewer had newer hardware that lacked support or perhaps NVIDIA drivers?
81 • Hardware and Debian (by Jesse on 2023-06-20 20:29:46 GMT from Canada)
@80: "his makes me wonder if the reviewer had newer hardware that lacked support or perhaps NVIDIA drivers?"
I list the hardware at the end of the review and there isn't any NVIDIA equipment. It's a pretty standard machine and runs Debian 11 and Debian 12 (install from live) perfectly. The issue was only with Debian 12's install media. In other words, unless Debian 12 Live and Debian 12 Install media use different kernels/drivers then this isn't a factor.
Going back over my notes, I think the issue might be Debian's mirrors. The DVD and net-install media ask which local mirror (a mirror in my country) should be used. I tried all of them and, eventually, the installer always fails.
However, the live disc didn't ask me to select a mirror if I remember correctly, it seems to use whatever is in the live system's default mirror list. At least that's what it looks like. Which makes me wonder if all the Canadian mirrors were glitching and/or not synced in the first week after release day. It seems to be the only thing I can find the live media doesn't have in common with the install media.
If that is the case, it is less a software issue and more of a case of unprepared infrastructure and the installer being unable to handle the error gracefully.
82 • (by StephenC on 2023-06-20 21:51:46 GMT from United States)
@81 - I was just looking at https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1036171 yesterday. Perhaps this is similar.
debian-installer: /etc/apt/sources.list isn't populated if mirror can't be reached during installation
83 • Debian, (GUI programs vs CLI commands) (by lincoln on 2023-06-20 22:25:41 GMT from Brazil)
I was also shocked by the issues Jesse faced during installation, but it's understandable. Debian is an inspiring project, with thousands of people around the world producing highly complex and extremely reliable software that is used in various scenarios. Its reputation for rock-solid stability is absolutely deserved. This is also confirmed by Jesse himself: "This is the first time in nearly 20 years of running Debian that I've had the installer fail."
Once the operating system is installed, I appreciate the positive aspects highlighted by Jesse: "I have a lot of respect. Debian strives to be a "universal operating system", running on a wide range of architectures, on a wide range of hardware, and in a variety of roles. Debian can run on just about anything (from a phone, to a Raspberry Pi, to a server, to a laptop) and perform as a anything from a web server to a gaming machine. The fact Debian also offers both regular stable releases with five years of support and rolling branches means the distribution can be used just about anywhere. The project's famed stability and its flexible are key reasons behind Debian being the basis for over 120 actively maintained distributions ... Debian is a technological and organizational achievement virtually unparalleled in the open source community."
----------
I don't judge those who prefer GUI apps because I used to be one of them. It's only with time that I realized that programs without a graphical interface tend to have fewer bugs, be more flexible, faster, and more reliable. I think it's a natural process for humans to be attracted to what is beautiful and shiny and eventually realize the value of simplicity, efficiency, or the relevance of the 80/20 rule and the importance of prioritizing what really matters.
84 • Debian installation dying (by nobody-nowhere on 2023-06-20 22:27:13 GMT from United States)
I've installed Debian and Devuan quite a few times. Sometimes the installation would die, but I always assumed it was related to network communications, or lack thereof. I always had to wait an hour or two and try again. Linux Mint and Sparky Linux, both Debian spins, never had installation trouble.
85 • @77 - Debian 12 Review and Installer bugs (by Andy Prough on 2023-06-20 23:48:34 GMT from United States)
>"my first time even touching Debian was the day before this review was posted ... I myself have only used Linux for like, a year and a half or so"
Exactly - and Jesse has used Debian on servers for 20 years, and is himself the developer behind several major GNU/Linux projects. Plus he's done hundreds of highly respected reviews. So when he says that there were bugs with the installer (and that the installer is overly time-consuming in an honestly unhealthy way), I tend to believe him over your claims that he is unable to properly install a distro. Sorry, but this community is merit-based, and all the merit is on Jesse's side in this faux debate you are attempting to conjure.
As I said, Debian will almost certainly put out a point release soon and installer bugs will almost certainly be dealt with as part of it. Prior to Debian 12's release, the Debian team themselves acknowledged that they were aware of around 100 existing bugs distro-wide. This is not unusual for such an enormous project. Other major distros also get released with both known and unknown bugs. Bug-free software is desirable, but probably largely unattainable in a project of this size.
86 • Debian 12 (by pengxuin on 2023-06-21 00:30:31 GMT from New Zealand)
I installed from the debian-12.0.0-i386-DVD-1.iso without issue about a week after Jesse, so any probable mirror issues were likely resolved by then.
It seems that as more and more installers require an on-line presence to complete, or augment the installation, this could be an ongoing issue to live with.
It also seems that there is a bit of a size creep with installer isos growing over the last few years.
in the last, about, 10 years we have gone from installer isos that comfortably fit on a cd to uncomfortably fit on a dvd, an approximately 600% increase.
In breaking news from 2032:
The Debian team have announced the release of their lasted version: Debian 16.
Amongst the release blurb, is a comment "The install media has been pared back to just under 8GB. To achieve this remarkably small size, there is now only the one desktop environment available if installing off-line: BUDGET DE.
All other desktop environments are available if you are on-line during the installation or after, via the package manager."
87 • Debian 12 (by Chis on 2023-06-21 00:44:08 GMT from Australia)
Debian 12 (Bookworm) was released with over 100 release candidate bugs and does seem a little buggier than I'd expect (for Debian). While I didn't have installation issues (2 PCs and 1 laptop) I have had issues with multiple systemd timeouts and passwords not sticking for evolution/gnome-keyring. Hopefully, the major issues can be sorted out for the 12.1 release.
88 • dd and getting things done @61 and @65 (by krell on 2023-06-21 01:49:37 GMT from Thailand)
@61 yes you are right . I forgot that some people still use HDs but for any modern laptop
surely it will be SSD(NVme unless the motherboard is very old . I upgraded my HD in a very old Thinkpad to a soimple SSD and it made it usable again. Of course for non desktop systems or budget laptops an HD may be fine.
@65 I gave windows 10 a fair shake. Get things done? After two reboots into the "black screen of death"on a modern ThinkpadE14I found Ubuntu and Fedora to be rock solid stable with no silly reboot behavior , or reporting or ads or other annoyances.
I am now Linux only(again).
89 • Debian (by soothsayer on 2023-06-21 02:42:31 GMT from United States)
@ Jesse
I had similar experience with Debian 2 releases back - had bene using it since 2008 or so and finallly gave up on it.
I use Mx now because life it too short to fix careless programmers bugs ..
I have seen other issues with raw Debian too .. I had a real hard time getting VB running on Debian 11 too - so yes, it used to be a great stable distro, but I think those who use it as a base provide much better solution - particulary MX -- I don't like mint for one reason only -- their AWFUL color scheme -- unreadable light green against a white background, these 19 years olds have an awful perspective of the rest of the world's ability to see light colors on white background.
90 • Installer, sda, dd (by Chuck on 2023-06-21 02:55:07 GMT from Australia)
@60, "In modern Linux systems there is no /dev/sda etc" I have "modern Linux systems" on a modern desktop with an SSD and my root partitions are still sda5, 7 and 8. The only thing bearing dev/mmcblk0p1 is a rermovable SD card.
@52, "Other installers usually allow users to have both admin access and a root account with password access." Ubiquity does not provide for root access. Most distros that use Calamares don't provide for root passwords on the installer. MX Linux has an option which you must check. So, no. Root access is not usually provided. In any case, one can add the user to 'sudo' or create a password for root after boot-up.
@64," dd, always hunting down the new versions: search for "Balena Etcher"" You make much ado about nothing. If the app already in your system works, why do you go around hunting for updates? I've had Balena Etcher appimage sitting in my home folder for quite a while, never updated. I'd bet I can have it copying and finishing much quicker than you can open terminal and enter the convoluted dd magic spell.
91 • Debian / Kumander / Win / Linux / gui.. (by uwin on 2023-06-21 06:07:42 GMT from Australia)
Proprietory OSs put more work into GUIs; whereas Open Source OSs seem to be more engineering oriented, and the GUIs seem more minimalistic (except for large apps like office and multimedia).
Case-in-point: all configuration options in NixOS are said to be contained in one file. A proprietory OS would see this as an opportunity for a "mega Configuration GUI"; but for the Open Source OS its a case of "nope, we're happy just to configure things manually".
92 • Gaining root command line prompt without root password (by K.U. on 2023-06-21 10:51:01 GMT from Finland)
@52 In some distros, one can gain access to root command line prompt without knowing root password by applying
sudo su
I wouldn't be too surprised if this worked in Debian as well.
93 • @35 Balerna Etcher user (by Ted H in Minnesota on 2023-06-21 11:29:45 GMT from United States)
@35 Balerna Etcher user -
Have you tried Ventoy? No need to specify what stick drive to direct to copy to - you just physically copy your iso file to a Ventoy-installed stick drive, and then when the Ventoy stick drive boots you just pick the iso drive you want to load (with one or possibly many!)
I could not get it properly installed, but had someone else I know install it on a stick drive. (I had tried to install it on linux; he used Windows.)
Just copy your iso to the ventoy stick drive. Runs slick.
I just can't figure out how to make it Persistent!
Cheers!
Ted H in Minnesota
94 • Foolproof data destroyer (by Emmanuel on 2023-06-21 22:30:30 GMT from Brazil)
***
There are a number of ways a person can check to make sure it makes sense to write a file to a specific storage location using dd. We can check for a certain device name using the lsscsi command. We can check for a size range of the destination with the lsblk command. Verifying a device has one of a specific set of brand names or is under a certain size can certainly help us avoid overwriting the wrong drive. These are good technical checks to perform, but they do not protect us from a typo.
***
N00bs are the only people who might make such a kind of mistake when using 'dd', or any other CLI tool. Thus I suggest they employ 'Gparted' (a well known GUI for 'parted') as an easy way to discover the correct name of the destination device for a given ISO file. If they remember to do it prior to start the 'dd' command, will have no chance to overwrite the wrong drive!
95 • @94 n00b mistake (by Kazlu on 2023-06-22 13:38:51 GMT from France)
"N00bs are the only people who might make such a kind of mistake when using 'dd'"
I don't think so. Even if you know very well what you're doing and it's the 100th time you're doing it, maybe that day you're tired and you don't check everything because hey, you know what you're doing, or you just make a typo without noticing. And boom goes the wrong partition.
I myself check every time that my thumb drive bears the name I expect (thanks, blkid) and only apply dd via a copy-paste of the last time I used it, saved in a text file stored where I store all my distro ISOs. I only change the name of the ISO. Far from optimal... But at least I reduce the likelihood of a mistake.
And of course, if I... when I mess up, I have data backups to bring my digital world back!
96 • Debian 12 a perfect install exoerience (by Miko on 2023-06-22 15:48:56 GMT from Israel)
I just installed Debian 12 bookworm on my asus laptop and the exoerience was smooth, everything is as stable as usual - I've use Debian on all my machines for many years. The article looks biased and anti-Debian, sorry. Looks like the author tries to make would-be users not to install the system.
97 • The install experience (by qwerty13579 on 2023-06-22 22:20:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
@70 Of course it's only to be expected that any criticism whatsoever of the beloved Linux is followed by a torrent of indignation. "How dare they point out the failings of our open source/not Windows/not Apple system!"
The point about Windows being easy to use 'out of the box' is evident to anyone who watches Auntie startup her Xmas laptop. Try Auntie with Linux Mint and see how far she gets without help.
Then try this test on a visually challenged relative/friend. The results tell us a lot about the customer relations ranking in the priorities of the major OS suppliers.
98 • writing disk images (by Farhaad 1992 on 2023-06-23 07:17:04 GMT from Germany)
@2 "it writes just to the whole disk"
my mean was *drive*, not "disk", because SSDs are not disk, unlike HDDs, also GNOME Disks supports optical drives
99 • The install experience (by Dave Postles on 2023-06-23 07:20:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Try performing a Windows OEM installation after paying through the nose for the OS.
100 • @97: (by dragonmouth on 2023-06-23 11:41:46 GMT from United States)
That is only your opinion.
My family - Auntie, Unca, Granma, Granpa, wife and two kids learned their computer skills using Linux with no problems. The problems came later when the kids had to switch first to OS/X in K-12 and then to Windows in college.
If you are computer illiterate, Windows is no easier or harder to learn than Linux or MacOS or BSD or MVS. It's all gobbledygook at the beginning. The only reason people like you think Windows is easier is because majority of people use it.
101 • @96 anti-debian review (by Kazlu on 2023-06-23 15:55:39 GMT from France)
@96 "The article looks biased and anti-Debian, sorry. Looks like the author tries to make would-be users not to install the system. "
The installer is not working on his machine, so he is anti-Debian? What should he say? "The installer of the DVD install media crashes all the time but it is great"?
102 • @70 and @97 Linux ease of use (by Kazlu on 2023-06-23 15:56:10 GMT from France)
Completely agreeing with @97 dragonmouth
@70 "The point about Windows being easy to use 'out of the box' is evident to anyone who watches Auntie startup her Xmas laptop. Try Auntie with Linux Mint and see how far she gets without help."
This is only true if Auntie is used to Windows but not Linux Mint. So it's not a proof that Windows is easier to use. Try Auntie with macOS and see how far she gets without help...
103 • Biased, corrupt review of Debian (by Otis on 2023-06-23 19:40:00 GMT from United States)
It must be very frustrating for Jesse to see nonsense such as (@96 and a few others): "The article looks biased and anti-Debian, sorry. Looks like the author tries to make would-be users not to install the system."
One thought, if the review(s) here were prejudiced against any distro, or any idea for that matter, they'd not be of the mind to allow dissent such as is in post 96 to even be shown in this forum/comments area. That's the way biased admins and site operators work; no dissent, only yes-people allowed.
No such thing here (to state the obvious).
Number of Comments: 103
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