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1 • Fedora ditching LibreOffice (by Pumpino on 2023-06-05 00:37:45 GMT from Australia) |
Red Hat has lost the plot. Not building the most popular office suite for Fedora in particular is laughable. I'm glad I moved away from Fedora years ago.
2 • LibreOffice (by bassoon on 2023-06-05 02:25:15 GMT from Australia)
@1 agreed, it is laughable and RH has lost the plot - but watch the remorseless push to flatpaks continue. If this was Ubuntu, the critics would be having a field day, but RH seems to be able to get away with much more.
3 • AppImage, Flatpak, and Snap: Linux's universal package managers. (by Greg Zeng on 2023-06-05 03:39:22 GMT from Australia)
As usual, the first comments here come from Australia, on the world time clock. The outsiders of the industries seem to not understand overall computer trends. RH now recognizes the binary codes need to be either Appimage, Flatpak or Snap. Most insiders, including RH, are gambling that Flatpak might be better than the other two packages.
This weekly Distrowatch examined two minor Arch based distributions. Calamares is slowly gaining more confidence and popularity. Old timers still are suspicious of Calamares. Small-timers use Calamari badly. Small-timers have small development teams, so cannot prepare their final release versions for most Linux end-users. So the usual Virtual Box, variable hardware incompatibilities and upgrade problems.
This explains why the major distributions are chosen as the core base of the more adventurous creations. Manjaro-base, rather than Arch. Ubuntu or Mint base, rather than any of the three Debian bases.
Linux has the common teething issues with display managers. Old timers just stay with the shortcomings of the X displays. Some dare to be 'modern', so experiment with Wayland, which is generally ok, sometimes. Others might try X-Wayland, which might also sometimes be workable. This is the current state of Linux, known seemingly to experts.
4 • LibreOffice (by EH2 on 2023-06-05 03:52:42 GMT from Mexico)
To be honest, no one's been able to tell me what exactly is wrong with flatpaks, to the point where RH pointing you to the LibreOffice flatpak could be "losing the plot". I think I have more issues with my current physical desk than with flatpaks.
5 • Slint review (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-05 05:06:28 GMT from France)
I am the Slint maintainer and having read the review of Slint-15.0-3 by Jesse Smith, I am puzzled, especially by the issue he reported, quoted below:
"After a few minutes the installer reported it could not proceed because a package file on the media was corrupted. It also reports it cannot extract file
and then bails out. I confirmed the install media had the correct checksum, indicating the problem is with the included package itself, not the install media on which the package is located. This brought my experiment with the accessibility-focused Slint to a close. This was the same problem I had with the original release of Slint three months ago and it's discouraging to see the corrupted package issues has not been fixed, despite refreshed media being published."
I just tried in a Qemu VM the most recent ISO: http://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-15.0/iso/slint64-15.0-4.iso as well as all previous ones for version 15.0 in http://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-15.0/iso/previous_iso/ without such issue. For the records the file /usr/bin/aria_chk is shipped in a maria-db package coming from a Slackware repository and I could mount the latest ISO on /mnt and from there install it on bare metal without a hitch. As far as I know nobody brought up this issue so far in a Slint support channel (Jesse did not either). Bugs not reported will not be investigated ;)
Anyway I encourage all interested to try he latest Slint iso (links in https://slint.fr) and report their findings. It can be installed in an 64 G USB stick. Yo can send your reports in one of the support channels or send them to me: at slint dot fr.
Incidentally the review mentions a "setup" command which does not exist in the installer of Slint-15.0 (it existed in the installer of the previous Slint version available in http://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-14.2.1/iso/). In all ISOs for Slint-15.0 the installer instead first suggest to type "start" "doc" and after user has typed "start" tells them to type either "a" for "auto partitioning" or "m" for "manual portioning", so I am even more puzzled..
6 • RE: Fedora ditching LibreOffice (by Operius on 2023-06-05 06:14:13 GMT from Netherlands)
@1 "Not building the most popular office suite for Fedora in particular is laughable."
Why? They want to focus on Wayland and HDR support, that will benifit all linux desktop users, while Libreoffice is available and working just fine as a flatpak everywhere.
If you have (apparently) limited manpower this makes perfect sense to me.
7 • @6 (by Pumpino on 2023-06-05 06:22:08 GMT from Australia)
Why LibreOffice in particular and not the thousands of other packages? It just seems like an odd decision. It's kind of Ubuntu-ish in a way (ie. switching only a few packages to Snaps). Snaps are a disaster,
8 • Slint review (by Roger Brown on 2023-06-05 08:52:00 GMT from Australia)
@5 Attempted to install Slint in VirtualBox - worked perfectly although the installer is rather cryptic at times. Also it booted up post-install in Mate when I had chosen LXQT - LXQT was present however.
But my first impression is that this is quite a decent Slackware based distro. Well worth a shot.
9 • Duplicate file finders (by DachshundMan on 2023-06-05 09:25:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have been using jdupes ( https://github.com/jbruchon/jdupes) for some years after it was recommended to me by a customer. It seems very quick and up to now I have never found it making a false positive. Like rdfind it uses a form of content comparison. I also like that it is available in a version for Win64 so I can use the same tool when I am asked by friends to help them find duplicate photos on their disks.
10 • Snaps and Flatpaks (by Albert on 2023-06-05 09:59:55 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu is creating a version based solely on Snaps while still maintaining the traditional .deb based one -for now only I dare to think. At the same time the RHEL people are pushing the use of Flatpaks into Fedora workstation. In the field of debian derivatives, the Endless OS seems to be using Flatpaks for package management exclusively.
@3 Greg Zeng points out this week that the trend now is the adoption of these universal package formats. I searched the internet for 'Snaps and Flatpaks' on Firefox and the second site that the DuckDuckgo engine found dealing with this subject, published on January 2023, maintains that these two system packages "are more popular than ever among linux users who no longer prefer native binary packages ..."
All this worries me a bit because, based on my own experience with Snaps and Flatpaks, I can see that they require a lot -really a lot- more disk space as compared with traditional formats. I recognize however that technology advances rapidly and bigger disks are becoming available, but I wonder if this is happening fast enough to keep pace.
Another thing I've seen is the ever increasing appearance of systems with read-only root partitions and I wonder how this affects us linux users who like to tinker with our systems.
I would like to know what other readers think about all this.
11 • Slint (by pat on 2023-06-05 10:05:30 GMT from United States)
Never heard about this one, gonna try it because it has screen reader. Looking for something like this for awhile. Thanks.
12 • Slint review (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-05 10:11:19 GMT from France)
@8 Roger Brown: Thanks for your input.
About LXQt vs MATE: yes this has been already reported. Actually the choice of the desktop done during installation stands for users starting the system in console mode (then after login typing startx if they want to start a desktop). When users choose to start in graphical mode directly (as you probably did) they can select the desktop from the lightDM greeting screen. I will make that more clear in next ISO. Also I tried to find a way to make the initial choice of the user the default also for lightDM but didn't succeed so far. Will try again.
13 • Re: LibreOffice (by jesterclub on 2023-06-05 10:37:51 GMT from Mexico)
What Flatpaks, AppImages and Snaps offer is the possibility of running a given program on any Linux distro, be it Debian, RHEL, openSUSE or an independent one, such as Solus, as long as they support the required framework. A "universal" solution offered by a "universal" package manager, achieved via running a piece of software in a "pocket dimension" -or sandbox- which provides it with the necessary files to execute without using those offered by the base operating system, unlike natives, which do rely on available OS libraries, thus limited to work in such environment.
However, they do have their own set of issues -e.g. flatpaks suffering from slower response times when compared to their native peers (https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+slow), or snaps throwing errors when handling special characters, such as accented vowels (https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1576411)-, for that reason, they require time and energy to apply patches, perhaps more as they might be triggered by the app itself, the sandbox or when both interact.
Based on what was commented at Fedora forums' thread, supporting, in this case, native LibreOffice files alongside their universal counterparts was perceived as redundant, as each defeat the necessity of maintaining the other. In other words, Fedora is transitioning from supporting native apps to offer universal apps. Perhaps, this is what fellow comments mean as "losing the plot".
You might have heard about "inmutable" operating systems, such as Fedora Silverblue. That is the base OS branding, amongst other things, a Flatpak package manager to seek and install programs without adding any more files than those used by the distro. Such is what companies like Red-Hat and Canonical are aiming for, currently.
14 • rdfind - wow (by Gazz on 2023-06-05 11:24:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
flippin eck - how have I missed rdfind all this time?
Just saved myself 2.5TB of space on my desktop box alone
15 • I can't get no satisfaction (by Trihexagonal on 2023-06-05 11:28:13 GMT from United States)
I don't use OpenSuse, LibreOffice, AppImage, Flatpak, Snap, Stint, Fedora or any other distro reviewed this week.
I know what I like and stay with one that does what I want it to without all the searching for the Holy Grail or installing one after another as an exercise. in frustration
Kali GNU/Linux is what I like. It's stable in that it doesn't change every week and has the basic programs like apt, and Leafpad that I like to use. It's easier to maintain than FreeBSD, too.
But that's just me and I got satisfaction.
16 • Flatpaks, Snaps (by RetiredIT on 2023-06-05 12:03:47 GMT from United States)
Both of these are slow, memory hogs and don't work half the time when trying to run the desired package. Plus, installation of a package takes a very long time. Trying to run LibreOffice with Flatpak would be similar to a crawling snail in the middle of a Minnesota winter!
17 • Slint (by Tran Older on 2023-06-05 12:18:34 GMT from Vietnam)
For people who are not visually impaired, I would like to suggest download absolute 15.0, also available at slackware.uk. After installing it to bare metals, you can replace IceWM with MATE or LXQt.
18 • About arch distros (by Acelga on 2023-06-05 13:41:19 GMT from Spain)
I don't get why there see so many arch based distros that are just a collection of the maintainer's favorite de or wm, theme, and apps.
Arch is literally a bare bones distro. Create a bash file to install the things you like, and stop building things that are doomed to fail.
I understand it's their hobby, but they are putting their users' computers at risk.
19 • Ubuntu move towards immutable base + Snaps (by Kazlu on 2023-06-05 14:51:14 GMT from France)
I guess if the default version of Ubuntu becomes an immutable core with only snaps for the user applications (same could be said for Fedora Silverblue and the future Red Hats using Flatpaks), it will grow closer and closer to being a king of "mostly open source Windows". Which... makes sense, I guess.
To explain my point: using more applications as snaps means all those applications will bring their own dependancies bundled with them, instead of relying on the mutualized libraries of the base operating system. As a result, the applications are easier to maintain, saving time to, maybe, support more applications or spend more time on developpment. It is also interesting for application developpers, who only have to make a working Flatpak to distribute their software to every Linux distribution, instead of having to distribute packages for every major distribution (each with its own package manager). That can be an incentive to distribute more software to Linux. The drawback is that users need more disk space and RAM for every duplicate of each library (keep in mind that with snaps, any given library can be used at a different version for each application). This is closer to the Windows way of handling applications.
As long as both systems coexist (standard package management and Flatpaks/Snaps), I think it's probably a good thing. It gives us more variety, we may chose whichever way we prefer depending on our priorities.
Personnaly I prefer standard package management as much as possible, so that I can keep an oldish computer running for longer instead of buying a new one, that is better for the planet :) I do not mind running a Flatpak or two if necessary. Debian is still firmly following the standard way, which is perfect for me. Should that change, I guess I might turn my head towards a rolling release distro on computers that have limited resources, since I suppose the need for Flatpaks or the likes is less obvious there. I do not believe this trend will reach all Linux distros though.
20 • RHEL and LibreOffice (by Scott Dowdle on 2023-06-05 16:09:00 GMT from United States)
If you look at the versions of LibreOffice available in the various supported releases of EL, you'll see they are quite dated. Anyone wanting a contemporary version of LibreOffice on EL is already using the flatpak, which I recommend. On Fedora, its a bit different. They always provide relatively current versions of most everything but I didn't know a RHEL group was doing the work of packaging it for Fedora. If I have to switch to the Flatpak version of LibreOffice in future Fedora releases, and that remains to be seen, I don't think it'll be that big of a deal.
21 • Opensuse variant (by Robert on 2023-06-05 16:15:26 GMT from United States)
As an arch user and fan of opensuse's tools, tumbleweed appeals to me. However, every time I've tried to use it, it breaks horribly very quickly. I think of TW like other people think of arch
I do use Leap on my server though, and that has been solid. So it gets my vote.
No experience with MicroOS. I was interested in possibly using instead of Leap, but documentation or really any information at all is nonexistent.
22 • openSUSE variants (by SuperOscar on 2023-06-05 18:29:04 GMT from Finland)
I’m a long-time Leap user, and its upcoming demise fills me with sadness. No such distro is to be found anywhere else.
Tumbleweed is OK, it’s the most stable rolling distro I’ve used, but I hate having +2000 packages to update weekly.
Immutable distros could be great for people who don’t maintain their own systems. I’m not sure why I would want to use one, though. At least the MicroOS experiences I’ve had where not good: a forced reboot after every single installation, no matter what was installed!
23 • RHEL and LibreOffice (by Scott on 2023-06-05 18:59:53 GMT from United States)
Unless I missed it, no one seems to have mentioned that there is another option besides flatpaks. You can download from LibreOffice's site click download and get to a page that lets you download the rpms. I haven't done it in a while, but if I remember correctly, you change to an rpm directory and just do rpm -ivh *rpm and it will install it without taking up all the space that a flatpak would.
24 • containers (by mircea on 2023-06-05 20:37:23 GMT from Moldova)
It would be cool to try an immutable based os + snap.
Cause all immutable OSes based on flatpak are not usable for developement and CLI apps.
Flatpak doesn't support cli apps, so no way to install go, node, rust and other compilers.
so you need to install them through system package manager, which loses all the points in using immutable oses in the first place.
While snap supports CLI apps too, so your base os is small and cool.
25 • updating (by Bobbie Sellers on 2023-06-05 20:41:36 GMT from United States)
I see no excuse for Flatpaks, Snaps and use PCLinux OS 2023 currently at Linux 6.3.5. I don't
mind using tools like Synaptic where I know which packages are being updated. I read of unhappy users of Snaps and Flatpaks on Usenet in Linux newsgroups. But I may be a bit old fashioned which sounds right at 85 yoa.
The so-called Immutable distributions are not. You just have to make bigger downloads to get the later images. What is the point? Aside from false advertising. Maybe it will make the
Enterprise version users feel more secure. They will not be more secure unless they extend
their efforts in that direction. So many enterprises have suffered copied data and malware attacks that they must not be able to effectively keep intruders out of their systems.
Just my opinion and I won't offer online references to back it up because searching Usenet for the posts that influenced my opinion is too much.
Thanks for the hard work of reviewing 3 distributions this month.
26 • Libreoffice (by nsp0323 on 2023-06-05 21:20:13 GMT from Sweden)
It's depressing to see the state of things. Flatpaks, Snaps or whatever will never run on my machines. The same goes for immutable OSs.
27 • Slint review (by Hugo Carvalho on 2023-06-05 21:37:19 GMT from Portugal)
To install Slint the command to use is "start" not "setup" as mentioned in the review by Jesse Smith.
The lastest of Slint-15.0-4 ISO works well. No issues here!
28 • Flatpaks (by Hoos on 2023-06-06 02:14:29 GMT from Singapore)
While I try to limit my use of flatpaks to where it's absolutely necessary (large sizes, theming mismatches, prefer packages compiled for the native packaging format of the distro preferably directly from distro's/parent distro's repos), it is at least more universal than snaps.
Flatpak is more init-agnostic and you are not restricted to using systemd, unlike Snaps. So I have one or two flatpak applications installed on respectively runit, sysvinit and systemd distros.
29 • flatpaks (by Titus Groan on 2023-06-06 03:40:47 GMT from New Zealand)
some applications are only released as an appimage for linux.
or if you prefer, an .exe for M/S that will maybe run under wine*,**.
or -mac.pkg, guessing for apple range of product - not familiar myself.
if you dig around, you can sometimes find a tar.gz, and if you have the time/inclination, install yourself.
Just hope your dependency finding skills are up to it.
or just download the appimage / flatpak / snap and put up with excess baggage.
* wine is not an emulator
** depends on how much is left in the bottle
30 • @23 LibreOffice rpm (by Kazlu on 2023-06-06 09:42:19 GMT from France)
If I am correct, one big difference is that when you install this way, LibreOffice just stays there and you have to update it manually, while with Snaps/Flatpaks you can centralize and automate updates for all Snaps/Flatpaks. Some distros even have a unified interface for updating traditional packages and Snaps/Flatpaks.
For the record, Appimages have to be updated manually too. I just heard of AppImageUpdate which might manage that, but I did not try it.
31 • "Portable" packages (by nsp0323 on 2023-06-06 10:38:41 GMT from Sweden)
@29 if it's open sourced, I'll compile it myself from the source code. If not, I won't use it anyway.
Dealing with dependencies can take sometime but, as a package maintainer, I tend to find my way around.
Btw, I don't use Windows, MacOS or Linux. I don't like the direction things are going so, I've moved to BSD four years ago.
32 • glad the discussion is back on topic (by Matt on 2023-06-06 11:43:56 GMT from United States)
Last week's comment section stunk. It was the first time I have seen so many posts praising Microsoft and even one calling Linux a handicapped OS. I guess even the mention of Azure Linux brings out Linux haters. Does that make me a conspiracy theorist, or am I just and observer of objective reality?
Anyway, back on topic: Flatpak doesn't always work for me either. It is the reason I had to give up on Void Linux and return to Debian. I love using Void and the runit system. I just don't have the time and energy to compile all the extra packages I need. I thought Flatpak was the solution, but it is not. I have to use Zoom for work, and the Flatpak version of zoom will not allow me to use SSO login. Fedora abandoning Libreoffice and leaving it to Flatpak is probably a big mistake. Most users will prefer to use packages maintained by their distribution.
33 • Slint review (follow-up) (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-06 12:53:38 GMT from France)
Having read this comment https://forum.salixos.org/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8629&p=49219#p49219 from George Vlahavas aka gapan on the Sling forum (that he kindly hosts) I could somehow reproduce the issue mentioned by Jesse doing this:
1. Create a (voluntarily too small) virtual hard disk with this command:
qemu-img create -f qcow2 JesseSmall 5G
2. Start the installer with a Qemu command including these lines:
-m 1.9G \
-drive file=JesseSmall,format=qcow2,media=disk \
To overcome the limitation of 50G fore the size of the drive, a soon as I got the bash prompt I used nano to edit the file /sbin/functions replacing line #46:
I then typed "started" he pressed "a" for "auto-partitioning mode, which leads to a "just installed" system size of about 9G (using brtfs with zstd compression) as I checked in another test.
As expected the same error as Jesse albeit a little later in the installation process (the package noto-fonts-ttf could not be installed). Indeed less than 27M was available in the target file system.
So I think the this conclusion quoted from the review is inaccurate: ". I confirmed the install media had the correct checksum, indicating the problem is with the included package itself, not the install media on which the package is located." Still other possibilities exist, like a bad USB stick, or a bad USB connection. Not knowing more about the exact context of the review makes hard to give a definitive conclusion. It would be interesting to know if an installation was also attempted in a VM, using the ISO directly as a virtual cdrom, and then its outcome.
34 • Slint (by George Nielsen AKA hitest on 2023-06-06 14:27:18 GMT from Canada)
I just installed Slint 15.0 in a VM; it was an error free installation. Thanks for your service to our community, Didier. First rate distribution!
P.S. I really appreciate what you've done here, Didier. I like the fact that you can opt for manual and or automatic partitioning. Choosing a graphical or console log-in during the installation is very slick.
I opted for the MATE desktop and a graphical log-in. Everything just works.
35 • Opensuse Aeon (by Faxe on 2023-06-06 15:07:33 GMT from Germany)
Aeon is promising and I have installed it for testing its RC-status, as I have done with Fedora Silverblue. Performance seemed to be fast but the show stopper happened when I tried to add my old Epson SX435 printer/scanner device. I plugged in the USB and the message appeared that a printer is added. So I tried to print a test page and got the message that I need to install a driver. I had to google how to install it via short terminal acrobatics, downloaded the driver, installed it, reboot and tried to print again. I got the message "Print job is stopped" and that I need a driver. Perhaps the firewall caused the trouble? I stopped all firewall services and tried again without success. The same happened with Silverblue before. After that I deleted Aeon and installed my beloved LTS-distro, which adds my printer without problems and just works. I am not a fan of Aeon or Silverblue right now.
36 • flatpak, snap or reality??? (by tom joad on 2023-06-06 15:09:59 GMT from Germany)
@ 32 "Most users will prefer to use packages maintained by their distribution."
Hallelujah!!! Simple and elegantly stated.
Reading the reader comments over the years have just reinforced that simple fact stated by Matt.
Maybe the purveyors of flatpak and snap maybe should reflect on considering possibly improving their creations...perhaps?
Until then I will stay with what has repeatedly and consistently worked for me.
37 • Slint review (by Jesse on 2023-06-06 15:15:06 GMT from Canada)
@33: " It would be interesting to know if an installation was also attempted in a VM, using the ISO directly as a virtual cdrom, and then its outcome."
Yes, I attempted to install Slint in a virtual machine with a verified ISO download. The disk size was 64GB and Slint was given the entire thing. (The installer claims it needs 50GB, but there is no way a 4GB ISO will require half that much space.) The installer fails with, apparently, a corrupted package file.
38 • Linux makes agreat server and is the biggest junk as a desktop (by Yoko on 2023-06-06 15:33:48 GMT from Japan)
@32 • (by Matt from United States)
@36 • (by tom joad from Germany)
You two seem to be misunderstanding that all people want is that their applications work. Most people have no idea what an OS is. Linux? Cancer?
39 • Slint review (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-06 17:04:40 GMT from France)
@37: "Yes, I attempted to install Slint in a virtual machine with a verified ISO download. The disk size was 64GB and Slint was given the entire thing. (The installer claims it needs 50GB, but there is no way a 4GB ISO will require half that much space.) The installer fails with, apparently, a corrupted package file."
50 G is not for the system alone just after installation. In "auto" mode it needs about 9 G as stated in my previous comment (double that with ext4 of xfs in "manual" mode), but then I assume that users will need much more space for the files in /home (which is not a separate partition but a btrfs sub-volume if installing in auto mode). Then if the user keeps old snapshots of / (also mounted as a sub-volume) this can take a lot of space and to avoid that the btrfs file system suddenly becomes read-only one have to keep always a few un-allocated space (roughly 5 to 10G) as indicated for instance by "btrfs fi us -T /" Maybe 50 G is an overkill and I could make that just a recommendation. At least no Slint user complained about a btrfs file system suddenly becoming read-only
As I posted this "apparently corrupted file system" most probably "not enough space on the drive to install this package as I have pointed out in my previous comment.
I still do not understand why far you are the only one having reported this issue (and believing it is due to a corrupted package) while several (not to say many) uses the same ISO to install and didn't come across it.
40 • Linux still so fragmented (by John on 2023-06-06 18:06:09 GMT from United States)
I bought a Mini PC the other day, since it only had minimal specs I decided that Windows 11 was just too heavy for its capabilities. I started trying different Linux distributions. Fedora, Pop OS, Ubuntu, Mint. All of them have one thing in common they all tend to do some things just slightly different then another. Things like FlatPac vs Snap, or even ways of using a similar Desktop environment. It reminded me of how people get overwhelmed with choices they sort of end up choosing nothing. This is especially true with Linux distributions. There are so many with basically slight spins on one another seems rather ridiculous since Linux in general is so customizable anyway.
I finally ended up with Ubuntu 22.04 just because it seems so many other distributions sort of work off that basic premise. Why use a copy when you can use the original was my theory. But then again I guess a true original would sort of be Debian. Anyway, I can see why many who even consider Linux will eventually give up and go back to Windows or Mac OS. It's just simpler, no real choices to make, it is what it is and most seem very satisfied not having to choose.
41 • What's wrong with flatpaks (by bluep on 2023-06-06 18:16:33 GMT from United States)
@4 "To be honest, no one's been able to tell me what exactly is wrong with flatpaks"
Try install any 700kb package and see how flatpak downloads 1.5GB on runtime libraries for nvidia and countless other stuff. Just for a 700kb package. And this will happen for every package.
Flatpaks are a great idea, if you want to waste time and disk space.
42 • Linux still so fragmented (by DaveT on 2023-06-06 23:43:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
All you did is make bad choices of distro.
Yes, a true original would be Debian, if you hate systemd you choose Devuan.
Better still, abandon linux and move to one of the flavours of BSD.
OpenBSD is my daily driver, the Devuan desktop does all the heavy audio stuff not ported to BSD.
43 • Linux fragmentation and stuff (by El Guapo on 2023-06-07 06:36:05 GMT from United States)
@40, "simpler, no real choices to make" In the movie "My Cousin Vinny," In the morning, Vinny and Mona Lisa walk up to the counter of the local greasy spoon. Vinny asks: "Do you have a menu?" The owner gets a card, wipes it off with a rag and puts it on the counter. There are two items on it: 1- Breakfast, 2- Lunch. Vinny says: "Let me think." And after a while: "I think we'll have the breakfast." If breakfast and/or lunch fulfill your desires, you are in paradise. Otherwise, you might want to look for a place offering a more varied menu.
Too many distros? Not too many and not too few, just as many as there are people willing to create them. This as ordained by the GPL and Richard Stallman in his infinite (or infamous) wisdom. No one is obligated to create any software because you or I or anyone else like it, not are they obligated to stop creating it because you or anyone else dislike it. Hate or love, complain and moan all you want. Makes no never mind
It's no so difficult to find a distro. Search with Google or your preferred engine for "Linux distros for newbies" and you'll find useful curated and short lists which should be easy to install and run. Should you need hand-holding, a search will again provide plenty of people willing to help with how-tos, videos, or whatever. If you are incapable of searching on internet, or of learning basic things about OSes and computers even with your hand being held, then you have no business installing Linux. Have someone do it for you, or stick to breakfast or lunch.
I love the variety of Linux, and even after many years I still try the odd and sometimes strange offerings, even if just for entertainment value. As in biological evolution, it's diversity that tends to lead to innovation. I customize the distros I use to fit me, and I also love that about Linux. I'm not just 1% of the 1% of the 1%. I'm probably somewhere in the .000001%. And frankly, I could not give less of a damn what the other 99.0000xxx% do or think.
@42,The only bad choice of distro is one that doesn't work for the user, not one that lacks the seal of approval from DaveT.
44 • Slint (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-07 07:27:22 GMT from France)
@ Tran Older: Yes Absolute is a good one. This not withstanding, Slint is not only for the visually impaired: I am sighted and (not so surprisingly) use it every day ;)
45 • @40 Linux fragmentation (by Kazlu on 2023-06-07 08:08:43 GMT from France)
I used to think the same: "Why do developpers spread resources that much creating so many looking alike distributions?". With time, I learnt more about how this software world works and realized why it was so. I could talk about it for hours, but long story short, the GNU/Linux world is not one global company with organized goals. It's just that there are distros out there, and sometimes here and there someone thinks "that one is nice, but I need this and that done differently, I will adapt it to my needs ; now that it's done, why not share it with others, who may have the same needs!" and BAM you just witnessed the birth of another distribution. Sometines the difference is in aesthetic details, sometimes it looks the same but has functional differences underneath.
It's not a bad thing: fragmentation does not mean isolation, and most distros still use more or less the same pieces, there are heavily intertwined, so they are still contributing together to the development of the base bricks used to make distros.
Now, about choice: I acknowledge it may be overwhelming, especially since web searches will return individual opinions of plenty of people recommanding different things! But here is a good thing: there are actually very few bad choices. There may be many distros tailored for beginners, but almost any of them will do just fine, you hardly can go wrong with them as a beginner. In the list you provided, I would steer clear of Fedora for a Linux beginner, but all others will do just fine. My personal recommandation would be Mint but since you already went with Ubuntu 22.04, which is also a very fine choice, don't bother changing, the differences are too thin to justify it. Keep using Ubuntu until you see a reason to look for something else. Maybe with time and after learning a bit, you may realize you need something different and you will want to change, be in in a month, a year or in five years. Or maybe you'll be fine and will keep using Ubuntu forever and that would be just fine!
The best choice would be the recommandation of someone you know, who will be able to give you a hand if you need help. If you don't have that, any "beginner friendly" Linux distro is fine.
Final words: It's better to have too many choices than to be forced to use only one option that does not work well for you, don't you think?
46 • Flatpacks, Snaps etc (by Name (mandatory) on 2023-06-07 08:35:46 GMT from Slovenia)
Once they become the standard and everyone start using them, you can expect lots of infestation, since you will not have safety net of shared libraries through official repositories.
I'm not using either of them. And if forced, I may even try to learn BSD, which I would like to avoid at this age, I'm getting too old to learn new tricks ;)
47 • Libreoffice on Fedora, Flat Fatpacks (by Hank on 2023-06-07 08:49:14 GMT from Switzerland)
Fedora can remove what they like, I tried it and left fast.
Buntu can also do what they like, with the bloated packaging they propose even more so.
After a long time searching for my personal best distro I settled on the debian based antiX.i
Lightweight fast and with modern kernel runs on pretty much any recent device.
Presently running and enjoying antiX23 beta.
48 • @41 • What's wrong with flatpaks (by bluep from United States) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-07 10:11:16 GMT from Netherlands)
"Try install any 700kb package and see how flatpak downloads 1.5GB on runtime libraries for nvidia and countless other stuff. Just for a 700kb package. And this will happen for every package.Flatpaks are a great idea, if you want to waste time and disk space."
You might be right when it comes down to the space needed, but you are still generally wrong as you completely missed the reason why Flatpak is needed.
Linux makes a great server but a terrible desktop—unless all you want to do is do some surfing and fiddle with system files.
Most people use their PCs because they have work to do that requires the corresponding application. It is far better to have the application one needs that uses an extra 1.5 GB of platform files than to have no application at all.
49 • @46 • Flatpacks, Snaps etc (by Name (mandatory) from Slovenia) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-07 10:21:31 GMT from Netherlands)
"Once they become the standard and everyone start using them, you can expect lots of infestation, since you will not have safety net of shared libraries through official repositories. I'm not using either of them. And if forced, I may even try to learn BSD..."
Well, if you understood the main principles of Flatpak, Snap, and "immutable," you would also understand why you are wrong—in theory, as in practice, every system can be hacked if if there is enough will and someone knows what and how to do it. Everything is sandboxed.
The main issue here is that imperfect people write imperfect OSes and imperfect applications, and smart people can always find some workaround.
50 • @47 • Libreoffice on Fedora, Flat Fatpacks (by Hank from Switzerland) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-07 10:27:56 GMT from Netherlands)
"Fedora can remove what they like, I tried it and left fast. Buntu can also do what they like, with the bloated packaging they propose even more so. After a long time searching for my personal best distro I settled on the debian based antiX."i
While antiX might be great to revive some 20-year-old PCs and might be fine for you and a few dozen lookalikes, one can't really compare it to a modern OS. This would be like comparing the Trabant that you drive with a Ferrari or Rolce-Roys. Yes, they all drive. 😉
51 • @45 • @40 Linux fragmentation (by Kazlu from France) (by Leonie on 2023-06-07 14:39:49 GMT from France)
The long story short is that the GNU/Linux world is not one global company with organized goals, and that's why it'll always stay irrelevant on desktops. 300 "freakstributions" for "freaks" who would rather fiddle than work and keep complaining about Ubuntu, Fedora, Gnome, Flatpak, Snap, Wayland, and Systemd—the only things that work for most people.
Make EVERY Windows application since 1985 work on Linux, every game, every application, every... you name it; be it 128-bit, 64-bit, 32-bit, 16-bit, 4-bit, 2-bit, 0-bit... and you've got a "winner."
NO-BODY and NO-SOUL cares for the OS, but all people care to get their job done or that they can play the game they want to play—NOT the one that runs on some freakstribution after fiddling all day long.
"Final words: It's better to have too many choices than to be forced to use only one option that does not work well for you, don't you think?"
Final words of billions of users: It's better to have ONE choice that just works than TO BE FORCED to try hundreds of not working "freakstibutions."
52 • @48 Flatpaks VS nothing? (by Kazlu on 2023-06-07 16:46:54 GMT from France)
"Linux makes a great server but a terrible desktop—unless all you want to do is do some surfing and fiddle with system files."
That was true until, what, 2005? 2010? I have been using Linux for work and entertainment alike for more than 10 years now and it has better served me as a desktop than Windows ever had. I am talking office work (mostly letters and spreadsheets), scanning, printing, accounting, watching movies, listening to music, picture sorting and storing, image editing, video editing, sound editing, video calls, gaming... and more. The only thing I have not been able to do on Linux is using some specific games and one planning software. For the rest, Linux desktop did everything while working better than Windows.
"It is far better to have the application one needs that uses an extra 1.5 GB of platform files than to have no application at all. "
Agreed. Originally, the goal of Flatpaks and the likes was to bring software where it was not available. And it's a good thing! However, the starting point here was a situation where LibreOffice *was* available via a standard package, but will now be *replaced* with the Flatpak version. Same thing with this "all-snap" version of Ubuntu. In this case, the technical pros and cons become relevant. Especially because we are not talking about one or two 1.5GB Flatpaks, but dozens and dozens.
53 • @51 fragmentation (by Kazlu on 2023-06-07 16:59:22 GMT from France)
"Make EVERY Windows application since 1985 work on Linux, every game, every application, every... you name it; be it 128-bit, 64-bit, 32-bit, 16-bit, 4-bit, 2-bit, 0-bit... and you've got a "winner." "
Ah, yes, that would be great. But it's not possible, because most of it is closed source. The only ones that could do it would be the editors of those applications. Building yet another Linux distribution and making some software compatible with Linux are very, very different tasks. It would be like asking the designer of the bodywork of a car to take care of the retrofit of a thermal car to electric. Not the same job.
"It's better to have ONE choice that just works than TO BE FORCED to try hundreds of not working "freakstibutions." "
If the ONE choice worked fine for everyone, there would have never been more choices. The only reason why Linux exists is because other OSes were not satisfying. If one is 100% satisfied with Windows, which is working fine and fulfilling every need without issues, there is *absolutely no reason* to try anything else. Personnaly, I switched to Linux because Windows was not satisfactory (because mainly of performance and ethics). Now, I am more satisfied with Linux than with Windows... and I do work with it.
Who is forcing anyone to try hundreds of distros? If you want, try one. If it does not work, try a different one. If it gets too boring, you can always come back to the original situation. In the end of the day, the choice is always yours. Chose whatever fits your needs. But that choice might be different for someone else.
54 • Slint 15.0-4 installation (by keithpeter on 2023-06-07 18:27:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm typing this comment on a fresh installation of Slint on an ancient Thinkpad X61s using the whole 60Gb SSD. I read the copious documentation, set my keyboard and all and typed 'start' and opted for auto partitioning with an encrypted drive, setting 54GiB out of 55GiB reported aside for the root partition. Installation completed successfully. Seems to be working fine with the MATE desktop. The installation takes the form of a dialogue with options being presented at each stage.
Might be worth mentioning that when setting the pass phrase for the encrypted drive, the script requires that the pass phrase must include at least one capital letter and at least one punctuation mark. When setting the root and user passwords there is no similar requirement.
My main reason for trying a bare metal install is to explore the btrfs filing system and to experiment with making snapshots and rolling back to a previous state. A second objective is to see how the compressed swap drive behaves: top is seeing over 8Gb of swap space.
The stock install provides a very usable desktop on this core duo laptop - Firefox/Thunderbird/LibreOffice together with Audacious and VLC for media as well as GIMP and the MATE applications (Pluma, EoM, Atril &c).
PS: 'Setup' is the Slackware command to start the installer script - perhaps a slip of the keyboard?
55 • Slint 15.0-4 installation (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-07 19:31:21 GMT from France)
@keithpeter: you wrote "Might be worth mentioning that when setting the pass phrase for the encrypted drive, the script requires that the pass phrase must include at least one capital letter and at least one punctuation mark. When setting the root and user passwords there is no similar requirement." True. The rationale (or excuse, as you may prefer call it) if that if someone has a physical access to the computer (or drive where the system is installed), if this drive is not encrypted it is very easy to access all its files from a live system or initramfs (like a distribution installer), regardless of the passwords. If it is encrypted is is way more difficult to do that (unless the system be running, of course), but only with a very good passphrase.
To experiment with snapshots and their rollbacks you my use (as root or using sudo) absm, included in Slint and also available on GitHub. It doesn't have as many features of similar software yet but wrote it as I thought that snapper was a bit of an overkill and timeshift's GUI is hardly accessible with speech. However you can build and install timeshift typing "slapt-src -u && slapt-src -i timeshift" if you prefer.
56 • Slint 15.0-4 installation password complexity (by keithpeter on 2023-06-07 19:41:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
I didn't intend to question or criticise your choices and I understand the need to use a strong key for encryption.
I mentioned it just in case it took others trying an installation by surprise. My key phrases usually substitute length for variety of characters if you see what I mean!
Thanks for the pointer to absm - I need to read up on the general principles a little first.
57 • Slint 15.0-4 installation password complexity (by Didier Spaier on 2023-06-08 05:11:57 GMT from France)
@56 keithpeter I am fine with someone questioning my choices, this is how I can make Slint better. And I am grateful for your comments ;)
It is hard to guarantee the safety of a LUKS passphrase anyway: as Matthew Garrett aka mjg59 pointed out in a recent blog article @ https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/66429.html as of today only a LUKS2 key with an Argion2id KDF (key derival function) is not known to have been deciphered at least once by a state actor, and in Slint we are still using a LUKS1 key so I should probably upgrade now that GRUB supports LUKS2 (not sure if it supports Argon 2id yet, though). On the other hand Argon2id needs more RAM, so not sure I that would not lead to prevent encryption on boxes with few installed RAM. Sorry for the digression.
58 • password complexity (by Sergio Akira on 2023-06-08 05:23:08 GMT from Brazil)
"My key phrases usually substitute length for variety of characters if you see what I mean!"
In terms of security, a LONG passphrase made of just one kind of character (e.g., lowercase letters of the Roman alphabet) might be better than a SHORT password made of two or three kinds of characters (decimal digits, lowercase/uppercase letters, and special symbols).
By the way, a good password must have at least 30 characters. A strong password must be greater than 50 characters of several kinds.
59 • 50 • @47 FUD Posting regarding antiX (by Hank on 2023-06-08 07:47:58 GMT from Germany)
50 • @47 wrote While antiX might be great to revive some 20-year-old PCs and might be fine for you and a few dozen lookalikes, one can't really compare it to a modern OS. This would be like comparing the Trabant that you drive with a Ferrari or Rolce-Roys. Yes, they all drive. 😉
Above is Total FUD.
antiX is based on latest Debian and uses Runit or system V init. It is a modern semi Rolling OS.
On a very recent computer comparing performance to an Ariel Atom V8 is way more descriptive than a very collectible vintage DDR trabant.
60 • @59 FUD Posting regarding antiX (by Hank from Germany) (by Ayleen on 2023-06-08 08:36:25 GMT from Switzerland)
"antiX is based on latest Debian and uses Runit or system V init. It is a modern semi Rolling OS. On a very recent computer comparing performance to an Ariel Atom V8 is way more descriptive than a very collectible vintage DDR trabant."
antiX doesn't have Gnome-Shell or systemd, and it has no global-search functionality... antiX is like Windows 95 compared to Windows 11.
Also, are we talking about a modern, good-looking OS with sophisticated features or about speed?
I can easily add IceWM atop of my Fedora, and it'll be just as quick, as there will be no more animations left.
61 • @60 FUD Posting regarding antiX (by Kazlu on 2023-06-08 10:58:17 GMT from France)
"I can easily add IceWM atop of my Fedora, and it'll be just as quick, as there will be no more animations left. "
Just like you can install KDE Plasma on antiX and get a good looking OS with global search... So how is Fedora more "modern" than antiX?
62 • @61 • @60 Another FUD Posting (by Kazlu from France) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 11:26:15 GMT from Netherlands)
"Just like you can install KDE Plasma on antiX and get a good looking OS with global search... So how is Fedora more "modern" than antiX?"
When my neighbor goes to https://fedoraproject.org/workstation/download/, it'll get a good-looking and modern-looking OS with the fresh software versions.
When my neighbor goes to https://antixlinux.com/download/, he'll get something looking like it's fresh from '95 with some 2-3 year old software versions.
When my neighbor goes to https://www.salixos.org/download.html, it'll get something looking like '99, but it'll be more usable and performant as antix.
Just in case you missed it, we're not talking about what one can make out of some OS, but what one gets upon downloading and installing the 'default' without the need to do anything else but start using it—which is what 99,999% of all people expect.
63 • Installing IceWM on Fedora vs installing Gnome-Shell on antiX (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 11:54:22 GMT from Netherlands)
BTW, you should also check how much time it takes to install IceWM on Fedora and remove the (dependency) IceWM Themes package, and how long it takes to install Gnome-Shell, systemd, and all of the dependencies upon antiX (which makes extra effort to prevent systemd).
Upon installing IceWM on Fedora, you just pick up some of the best IceWM themes from pling.com, like the Dracula theme for IceWM—DraculIce, Fatale Pink IceWM Theme, Gruvbox IceWM Theme (dark panel), ice_ux_pro, Midday IceWM Theme, or Ubuntu 20.04 IceWM Theme. At least, those are the ones that I'm using on my Fedora 38 under IceWM a couple of times per year when I just get nostalgic for some '95 computer looks.
64 • @62, @63 antiX vs Fedora talk (by Kazlu on 2023-06-08 12:31:40 GMT from France)
@62 "Just in case you missed it, we're not talking about what one can make out of some OS, but what one gets upon downloading and installing the 'default' without the need to do anything else but start using it"
@63 "Upon installing IceWM on Fedora, you just pick up some of the best IceWM themes from ..."
I was actually replying to @60 "I can easily add IceWM atop of my Fedora, and it'll be just as quick, as there will be no more animations left. ", precisely because I *thought* we were talking about the OS and not what you can make of it, but not everyone was on the same page.
"BTW, you should also check how much time it takes to install IceWM on Fedora and remove the (dependency) IceWM Themes package, and how long it takes to install Gnome-Shell, systemd, and all of the dependencies upon antiX (which makes extra effort to prevent systemd)."
Ah, yes, I did not try that but I was suspecting it would be more difficult to install GNOME Shell on antiX due to the systemd ties! Which is why I mentioned installing KDE Plasma instead ;)
65 • @64 antiX vs Fedora talk (by Kazlu from France) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 12:51:34 GMT from Netherlands)
"Ah, yes, I did not try that but I was suspecting it would be more difficult to install GNOME Shell on antiX due to the systemd ties! Which is why I mentioned installing KDE Plasma instead ;) "
I am fully aware why you mentioned KDE (which looks and feels like 2005 Windows). ;)
66 • antiX vs Salix (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 12:53:39 GMT from Netherlands)
On a serious note, antiX just does not perform.
I am one of those "victims" who bought Nokia Booklet 3G in 2009. A beautiful-looking 10-inch device with a slow Intel Atom processor but with an integrated 3G modem seemed to be a usable device for a traveling person who could sit in the shade of some street cafe, drink a beer, and write an article.
The first versions that came out with Windows XP worked fine. Soon, Nokia was delivering them only with Windows 7 Starter.
I used it for a short time until it got unbearably slow, and I let it lay for some years—too petty to throw away but basically a completely useless piece of crap.
Somewhere around 2016–2017, I dug that IT failure out of the box, and I thought I could try to give it a second life with the help of some Linux—that's why we got Linux at the end of the day.
Trusty Thar wouldn't even start. Many other "lagstributions" were just lagging. Then I decided to try antiX, and it would install, but despite the horrible look and primitive WM's, it didn't offer any better performance.
The last thing I was willing to try before throwing it away was Salix 14.2. The first and only Linux distribution that actually worked on that ultimate piece of crap HW.
What was probably the biggest crap of HW ever made still lives because Volkerding and Gapan did a much better job than anticapitalista.
Not that it's a perfect job, though, as the Linux brain works just as far as the Linux brain works, and one gets four virtual desktops on the taskbar that 1% of users will need but no audio applet that 99% of users need, but that's thankfully easy to fix in Xfce.
Adding or removing applets in IceWM isn't that easy.
67 • P.M. @Kazlu "We" (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 13:06:48 GMT from Netherlands)
I understand "we" as anybody writing here anything to anybody else—it's "we" (all of us commenters), and nothing really personal.
In other words, I was just reading the context of what you and the other person were talking about—I can read the contexts. ;)
68 • @66 performance (by Kazlu on 2023-06-08 13:26:30 GMT from France)
Huh, interesting. I can somewhat relate, having myself bought a 2012 eeePC with Intel Atom inside. A bit more recent, I give you that, but same end of the stick :D It was delivered with Ubuntu and the, then, young Unity desktop was extremely sluggish, even without effects (I don't remember the name, Unity2D, classic, whatever). Xubuntu worked well for a time, until it became clear the whole OS was sluggish. I ended up installing MX Linux on it, probably around 2015. It has the same base as antiX but different choices of applications and an Xfce desktop. Still using that. With time, it became clear that the show stopper on such low end hardware would be the web browser anyway. Whatever fast or superfast OS or desktop I tried, browsing the web with Firefox has always been painfully slow. The rest of the software in MX works just fine and at decent speed (keeping in mind it's a 2012 Atom underneath...). I tried a collection of lightweight browsers, some work for casual browsing on some sites, but most of the time something is not displayed right. And I don't even want to try to log in anything with that :D
So all that to say I am a little surprised about the performance you experienced with antiX as a whole, but well, I was not exactly in your shoes. I had a brief experiment with Salix some years ago, left me with a very good impression, especially regarding performance. Same with Q4OS, for the record. But since I did not solve the browser problem and MX has been satisfying everywhere else until now, well, I did not bother.
"I understand "we" as anybody writing here anything to anybody else—it's "we" (all of us commenters), and nothing really personal.
In other words, I was just reading the context of what you and the other person were talking about—I can read the contexts. ;) "
That is also how I understood it, no worries here ;)
69 • @68 • @66 performance (by Kazlu from France) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 15:43:30 GMT from Netherlands)
"Huh, interesting. I can somewhat relate, having myself bought a 2012 eeePC with Intel Atom inside."
The processor was the same, but if you checked the review, you noticed two tiny but very important details. The Nokia had a bigger screen (1280 x 720 instead of 1024 x 600), and it did not have active cooling—Nokia had to reduce the processor power to approx. 60–70% (to reduce overheating) of the same processors with active cooling. Both together mean that there was not 50% speed left compared to your eeePC.
I know very well what one can or can't expect from some HW, and so I didn't even expect that Firefox and three tabs should work, but what I'm talking about here is that (rather) slow typing in a text editor didn't work in antiX, while it was kind of still usable in Salix. To be fair, it wasn't anticapitalista's failure or Gapan's "magic," but "Slackware magic" vs. "Debian failure." Debian was always only good as a server or the Ubuntu base.
70 • Proprietary snap server limits all-snap Ubuntu (by no-snap on 2023-06-08 15:46:24 GMT from United States)
All-snap Ubuntu sounds interesting but as long as the snap server remains proprietary I doubt it will get any broader usage. If Fedora's immutable images can be fully open source then surely Ubuntu's immutable images can be too.
71 • @Kazlu (aka Webbrowser) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 16:00:20 GMT from Netherlands)
"But since I did not solve the browser problem..."
Maybe check "surf."
72 • @70 • Proprietary snap server limits all-snap Ubuntu (by no-snap from United Sta (by Cubehead on 2023-06-08 16:19:31 GMT from Netherlands)
Canonical's Snap server is not more or less "proprietary" than the Flatpak; but nobody else has put any other Snap server online.
It is 100% open source, and you can also make a Snap server and put it online.
No matter who wins the "fight," Snaps are the better choice.
73 • @71 Surf (by Kazlu on 2023-06-09 10:08:31 GMT from France)
Interesting. Not as practical as a "regular" browser, but it seems to work even on annoyingly complex websites, so definitely worth a long time trial on that spare machine.
Oh, and thanks for the website! Most of the stuff mentioned is too barebones for my taste but it's nice to know that those options exist.
74 • @72 flatpak VS snap (by Kazlu on 2023-06-09 10:20:36 GMT from France)
The site you linked to starts with a bunch of peremptory and unbacked claims, when they are not totally irrelevant. Very poor start when you're about to read a technical analysis.
I still read it, out of curiosity. And if I only look at this list of arguments, Flatpak looks better than Snap to me :D
75 • @74 • @72 flatpak VS snap (by Kazlu from France) (by Cubehead on 2023-06-09 12:22:39 GMT from Netherlands)
"I still read it, out of curiosity. And if I only look at this list of arguments, Flatpak looks better than Snap to me :D "
It usually comes down to where one is discussing the topic. ;)
If one does it on DW, then "The users who have strong feelings on Snaps will inevitably be a small (if vocal) minority." ;)
The thing is that 99.99% of humanity doesn't want what 0.01% of people on DW want, and most of those DW people also don't know what they're talking about. ;)
Take a look @41 (by bluep) for example. Don't want it? Don't use it, but don't spread FUD. Sure, Flatpak and Snaps do need more space, BUT...
"For example, let's see how the snap package for a common tool compares to direct installation:
The difference is sometimes significant. If we download the youtube-dl software directly from the developer's website, the script occupies only 1.8 MB on the hard disk. But the snap package of the same program, including all the libraries, weighs a whole 93 MB.
BUT: If I now want to use youtube-dl without Snap, I am missing a whole lot of packages, among others it is a Python script, which also needs some extensions. If I now install youtube-dl using apt packages, things look quite different and occupy 651 MB of additional disk space. Of course the packages can be used for other applications and scripts. However, you can see the advantage of the snap package here. In addition, the youtube-dl snap package had taken only 4 seconds to install, but to load and install all the packages via APT took several minutes."
Or take a look @70 (by no-snap). Don't want it? Don't use it, but don't spread FUD.
Proof of concept:
This also showed why Linux Mint spreads FUD.
"Still, anyone can distribute their own Flatpaks. If Flathub decides they don’t want to do this or that, anyone else can create another Flatpak repository. Flatpak itself can point to multiple sources and doesn’t depend on Flathub.
Although it is open-source, Snap on the other hand, only works with the Ubuntu Store. Nobody knows how to make a Snap Store and nobody can."
This is a double-edged sword, as how do I know that I can trust the source or that it is actually still maintained if one app can come from multiple sources, like in Flatpak? That was the exact problem with Ubuntu's PPAs.
What one wants is a centralized store under someone's supervision who will take care that not everything and anything will be distributed and that it will be regularly auto-updated.
Another thing that Snap and Flatpak can't do is provide software for IOT devices.
76 • Correction (by Cubehead on 2023-06-09 12:50:40 GMT from Netherlands)
"Another thing that Snap and Flatpak can't do is provide software for IOT devices."
Another thing that Snap CAN but Flatpak CAN'T do is provide software for IOT devices.
Number of Comments: 76
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|• Issue 1036 (2023-09-11): SDesk 2023.08.12, hiding command line passwords, openSUSE shares contributor survery results, Ubuntu plans seamless disk encryption, GNOME 45 to break extension compatibility|
|• Issue 1035 (2023-09-04): Debian GNU/Hurd 2023, PCLinuxOS 2023.07, do home users need a firewall, AlmaLinux introduces new repositories, Rocky Linux commits to RHEL compatibility, NetBSD machine runs unattended for nine years, Armbian runs wallpaper contest|
|• Issue 1034 (2023-08-28): Void 20230628, types of memory usage, FreeBSD receives port of Linux NVIDIA driver, Fedora plans improved theme handling for Qt applications, Canonical's plans for Ubuntu|
|• Issue 1033 (2023-08-21): MiniOS 20230606, system user accounts, how Red Hat clones are moving forward, Haiku improves WINE performance, Debian turns 30|
|• Issue 1032 (2023-08-14): MX Linux 23, positioning new windows on the desktop, Linux Containers adopts LXD fork, Oracle, SUSE, and CIQ form OpenELA|
|• Issue 1031 (2023-08-07): Peppermint OS 2023-07-01, preventing a file from being changed, Asahi Linux partners with Fedora, Linux Mint plans new releases|
|• Issue 1030 (2023-07-31): Solus 4.4, Linux Mint 21.2, Debian introduces RISC-V support, Ubuntu patches custom kernel bugs, FreeBSD imports OpenSSL 3|
|• Issue 1029 (2023-07-24): Running Murena on the Fairphone 4, Flatpak vs Snap sandboxing technologies, Redox OS plans to borrow Linux drivers to expand hardware support, Debian updates Bookworm media|
|• Issue 1028 (2023-07-17): KDE Connect; Oracle, SUSE, and AlmaLinux repsond to Red Hat's source code policy change, KaOS issues media fix, Slackware turns 30; security and immutable distributions|
|• Issue 1027 (2023-07-10): Crystal Linux 2023-03-16, StartOS (embassyOS 0.3.4.2), changing options on a mounted filesystem, Murena launches Fairphone 4 in North America, Fedora debates telemetry for desktop team|
|• Issue 1026 (2023-07-03): Kumander Linux 1.0, Red Hat changing its approach to sharing source code, TrueNAS offers SMB Multichannel, Zorin OS introduces upgrade utility|
|• Issue 1025 (2023-06-26): KaOS with Plasma 6, information which can leak from desktop environments, Red Hat closes door on sharing RHEL source code, SUSE introduces new security features|
|• Issue 1024 (2023-06-19): Debian 12, a safer way to use dd, Debian releases GNU/Hurd 2023, Ubuntu 22.10 nears its end of life, FreeBSD turns 30|
|• Issue 1023 (2023-06-12): openSUSE 15.5 Leap, the differences between independent distributions, openSUSE lengthens Leap life, Murena offers new phone for North America|
|• Issue 1022 (2023-06-05): GetFreeOS 2023.05.01, Slint 15.0-3, Liya N4Si, cleaning up crowded directories, Ubuntu plans Snap-based variant, Red Hat dropping LireOffice RPM packages|
|• Issue 1021 (2023-05-29): rlxos GNU/Linux, colours in command line output, an overview of Void's unique features, how to use awk, Microsoft publishes a Linux distro|
|• Issue 1020 (2023-05-22): UBports 20.04, finding another machine's IP address, finding distros with a specific kernel, Debian prepares for Bookworm|
|• Issue 1019 (2023-05-15): Rhino Linux (Beta), checking which applications reply on a package, NethServer reborn, System76 improving application responsiveness|
|• Issue 1018 (2023-05-08): Fedora 38, finding relevant manual pages, merging audio files, Fedora plans new immutable edition, Mint works to fix Secure Boot issues|
|• Issue 1017 (2023-05-01): Xubuntu 23.04, Debian elects Project Leaders and updates media, systemd to speed up restarts, Guix System offering ground-up source builds, where package managers install files|
|• Issue 1016 (2023-04-24): Qubes OS 4.1.2, tracking bandwidth usage, Solus resuming development, FreeBSD publishes status report, KaOS offers preview of Plasma 6|
|• Issue 1015 (2023-04-17): Manjaro Linux 22.0, Trisquel GNU/Linux 11.0, Arch Linux powering PINE64 tablets, Ubuntu offering live patching on HWE kernels, gaining compression on ex4|
|• Issue 1014 (2023-04-10): Quick looks at carbonOS, LibreELEC, and Kodi, Mint polishes themes, Fedora rolls out more encryption plans, elementary OS improves sideloading experience|
|• Issue 1013 (2023-04-03): Alpine Linux 3.17.2, printing manual pages, Ubuntu Cinnamon becomes official flavour, Endeavour OS plans for new installer, HardenedBSD plans for outage|
|• Issue 1012 (2023-03-27): siduction 22.1.1, protecting privacy from proprietary applications, GNOME team shares new features, Canonical updates Ubuntu 20.04, politics and the Linux kernel|
|• Issue 1011 (2023-03-20): Serpent OS, Security Onion 2.3, Gentoo Live, replacing the scp utility, openSUSE sees surge in downloads, Debian runs elction with one candidate|
|• Issue 1010 (2023-03-13): blendOS 2023.01.26, keeping track of which files a package installs, improved network widget coming to elementary OS, Vanilla OS changes its base distro|
|• Issue 1009 (2023-03-06): Nemo Mobile and the PinePhone, matching the performance of one distro on another, Linux Mint adds performance boosts and security, custom Ubuntu and Debian builds through Cubic|
|• Issue 1008 (2023-02-27): elementary OS 7.0, the benefits of boot environments, Purism offers lapdock for Librem 5, Ubuntu community flavours directed to drop Flatpak support for Snap|
|• Issue 1007 (2023-02-20): helloSystem 0.8.0, underrated distributions, Solus team working to repair their website, SUSE testing Micro edition, Canonical publishes real-time edition of Ubuntu 22.04|
|• Issue 1006 (2023-02-13): Playing music with UBports on a PinePhone, quick command line and shell scripting questions, Fedora expands third-party software support, Vanilla OS adds Nix package support|
|• Issue 1005 (2023-02-06): NuTyX 22.12.0 running CDE, user identification numbers, Pop!_OS shares COSMIC progress, Mint makes keyboard and mouse options more accessible|
|• Issue 1004 (2023-01-30): OpenMandriva ROME, checking the health of a disk, Debian adopting OpenSnitch, FreeBSD publishes status report|
|• Issue 1003 (2023-01-23): risiOS 37, mixing package types, Fedora seeks installer feedback, Sparky offers easier persistence with USB writer|
|• Issue 1002 (2023-01-16): Vanilla OS 22.10, Nobara Project 37, verifying torrent downloads, Haiku improvements, HAMMER2 being ports to NetBSD|
|• Issue 1001 (2023-01-09): Arch Linux, Ubuntu tests new system installer, porting KDE software to OpenBSD, verifying files copied properly|
|• Issue 1000 (2023-01-02): Our favourite projects of all time, Fedora trying out unified kernel images and trying to speed up shutdowns, Slackware tests new kernel, detecting what is taking up disk space|
|• Issue 999 (2022-12-19): Favourite distributions of 2022, Fedora plans Budgie spin, UBports releasing security patches for 16.04, Haiku working on new ports|
|• Issue 998 (2022-12-12): OpenBSD 7.2, Asahi Linux enages video hardware acceleration on Apple ARM computers, Manjaro drops proprietary codecs from Mesa package|
|• Issue 997 (2022-12-05): CachyOS 221023 and AgarimOS, working with filenames which contain special characters, elementary OS team fixes delta updates, new features coming to Xfce|
|• Issue 996 (2022-11-28): Void 20221001, remotely shutting down a machine, complex aliases, Fedora tests new web-based installer, Refox OS running on real hardware|
|• Issue 995 (2022-11-21): Fedora 37, swap files vs swap partitions, Unity running on Arch, UBports seeks testers, Murena adds support for more devices|
|• Issue 994 (2022-11-14): Redcore Linux 2201, changing the terminal font size, Fedora plans Phosh spin, openSUSE publishes on-line manual pages, disabling Snap auto-updates|
|• Issue 993 (2022-11-07): Static Linux, working with just a kernel, Mint streamlines Flatpak management, updates coming to elementary OS|
|• Full list of all issues|
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Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.