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1 • UBPORTS (by Meister_Eder on 2023-05-22 00:32:46 GMT from Australia)
Version 20.04 but still no camera, GPS....
People use phones for surfing the web, sending messages, is taking photos and navigation.
It's a big fail for UBPORTS if they can't even get that to work on the Pinephone.
Does the U in UBPORTS stand for useless?
Devs should be embaressed and get this working asap.
2 • Finding another machine's IP address (by Geoffrey on 2023-05-22 01:09:14 GMT from Canada)
As noted, NMAP has a large number of methods for finding responsive devices on the network which can be extremely useful when machines are not responsive to ICMP. For more typical instances, FPING provides a clean and fast method for ping scanning multiple hosts.
3 • latest kernel on PCLinuxOS 64 (by Bobbie Sellers on 2023-05-22 01:17:39 GMT from United States)
Lucky me! Day before yesterday I installed and am running Linux 6.3.3. whee!
But it works very nicely.
bliss
4 • @ 1 • UBPORTS (by Titus Groan on 2023-05-22 01:26:23 GMT from New Zealand)
well, Jesse did say "...though the PinePhone was not one of the officially supported platforms."... " I grabbed the development image for UBports 20.04..."
and "Several functions, such as GPS and the camera, are known to not work"
this is what happens in the early development of any operating system - some functions just don't work and you have to wait for the developers to address such issues before a general release.
Who knows, an image next week image may well support those functions.
hopefully Jesse will "stay tuned".
5 • Gentoo (by Charlie on 2023-05-22 01:40:03 GMT from Hong Kong)
I still remember how popular Gentoo was as I started using Linux 20 years ago. Every forum and book about Linux is talking about Gentoo.
Gentoo's documentation really declines a lot, or, being surpassed by Arch. The description that people from other distro can find solution with their documentation definitely goes to Arch now.
I like the author mentions Nix, a new concept of managing system like Gentoo did. It's less painful than Gentoo: edit one configuration file then your system is set up. Actually the packages even update faster than Gentoo. And it has more fancy and new packages than Gentoo. But it barely touches Linux basics. Nix's learning curve is on its unique package format and system structure.
Gentoo is somewhat out of date in my point of view. Like a hippie in 2023, you know it was the hottest, but you can feel its age.
6 • kernel (by fenglengshun on 2023-05-22 03:24:53 GMT from Indonesia)
I'd generally use latest, unless there's some issue with it. Some non-LTS kernel has had problem with my RX570 PC for example.
On Ubuntu-based, I usually use linux-xanmod -- usually latest, if I could run it. On Fedora-based, I don't usually bother with changing the kernel on Fedora, but now that I'm getting into the uBlue workflow, I might try to work out how to add the xanmod kernel. For Arch-based, I use the linux-tkg script to build my own kernel.
7 • @5 Gentoo (by nsp0323 on 2023-05-22 05:02:22 GMT from Sweden)
"I like the author mentions Nix, a new concept of managing system like Gentoo did. It's less painful than Gentoo"
Well, I thought that was strange, given the author early on referenced the advantage of not needing systemd on Gentoo. NixOS has interesting concepts but, unfortunately none of them matter as long as one is locked to systemd.
8 • kernel (by user on 2023-05-22 07:07:49 GMT from Bulgaria)
I use only LTS, even on cutting-edge rolling distros like Void. The truly maintained stability is of a paramount importance to me.
9 • Cutting edge kernel? (by Operius on 2023-05-22 07:55:33 GMT from Netherlands)
Distros like Red Hat and SUSE use kernel 5.14. This is not a LTS kernel, and it is released in august 2021, so it's old right? Maybe. Red Hat and SUSE backport a lot of stuff into this kernel. This means that you might still have the latest driver for your hardware or some feature anyway.
So what I'm trying to say is that you should not just look at the kernel version number for your hardware support or other features.
10 • Finding a headless machine on a network (by Microlinux on 2023-05-22 08:00:59 GMT from France)
As an admin working in a school that's 100 % GNU/Linux, I can give you this nifty little trick for finding a new machine's IP address. Let's say you're in the 10.23.45.0/24 network. Then you simple issue the following command:
# nmap -sP 10.23.45.* | grep scan
And you get a nice list of all the known connected hosts, plus your unknown machine.
11 • Kernel (by Kazlu on 2023-05-22 10:09:22 GMT from France)
For the majority of distros I am using, I install MX Linux and I migrate only when the underlying Debian base is EOL. My main machine is still running on a Debian 9 (Stretch) base, that is oldoldstable now... And it still works fine, no reason to change. Stretch is in the extended LTS phase, thank you Freexian. I will upgrade whenever I have a reason to (system needs more intervention to keep running, new hardware, etc.), not planned yet.
Sooooo yes, LTS maintained kernel all the way :)
12 • Please use LTS kernel (by freerxh on 2023-05-22 10:12:07 GMT from United States)
Ruan Xiaohuan (a.k.a ProgramThink) is a Chinese dissident, blogger, and InfoSec specialist. He used virtual machines, Tor and many other security technologies to protect himself, and for 12 years published many articles anonymously on his blog, including information security and anonymity tips, but was unfortunately arrested by authorities two years ago when his identity was revealed.
This is his opinion of the Linux kernel:
If security is important to you, you should not use the latest version (including the latest stable version) of the Linux kernel; instead, you should use the "Long-Term Support" (LTS) version.
The latest version (including the latest stable version) may have new features (added code) that have not undergone sufficient checks, testing, or auditing. In contrast, LTS versions, during their maintenance period, only fix bugs and do not introduce new features.
The Linux community maintains multiple LTS versions simultaneously, and the older an LTS version is, the longer ago its new features (added code) were merged into the kernel mainline. The longer the time, the more thorough the checks, testing, and auditing these added codes have undergone.
13 • Gentoo (by Simon on 2023-05-22 11:35:41 GMT from New Zealand)
No, Gentoo is not "out of date". Its popularly didn't decline through any technical decline (in fact it's slowly but surely got even more technically impressive over the years): it declined because Arch took its place as the distro for folk who wanted to brag "look, I built my own custom OS" with minimal effort, and the distro with the best documentation (because fiddling with custom setups requires much better documentation than a standard, same-for-everyone distro). Personally I think its founder's going to work for Microsoft also had a lot to do with its decline. Those were the early days of Linux users being ex-Windows users (they nearly all are now, but in those days a lot of us had come to Linux by way of UNIX), and it was a cultural thing that they all felt the need to assert, loudly, their hatred of Windows and Microsoft: Gentoo seemed to have a particularly large number of these "look how l33t I am now" folk (notoriously wrecking their systems with stupid compiler o!
ptions), and for them, Gentoo lost a ton of its credibility when Daniel Robbins "sold out" to Microsoft. I think a lot of them shifted to Arch, and as the user base got bigger on Arch, the Arch wiki documentation got more and more comprehensive, and Gentoo's started to develop gaps (in comparison with the amazing documentation over at Arch). The branding didn't help either: purple flying saucers and transgender cows didn't give it the appearance of a serious OS, and the artwork in the screenshots that used to be displayed here on Distrowatch looked like the efforts of an aesthetically challenged seven-year-old: I imagine many people took one glance at its childish, tossed-together desktop and thought "nope, that one's not for me".
It's still a technically superior distro to most others, enabling experienced users not only to customize the heck out of everything, but to maintain those personal customizations relatively easily as the system's continually updated. I've had Gentoo boxes sit neglected (e.g. as archived backups rather than running systems) for years, and then with a few minutes of fiddling with update instructions and a few hours of leaving the computer alone to compile stuff, the whole thing is fully working with all the original customisations on the latest package versions of everything... its package management is really amazing. It's not practical as a serious productivity distro (because like any non-LTS distro, and especially a rolling release distro like Gentoo or Arch, it's a pointless time-wasting risk to update package versions when there are stable distros that just fix bugs and security holes, leaving everything else untouched and fully trustworthy) but it's second to none for !
playing with different setups... vastly more flexible than Arch. The expertise on their forums is amazing too, with some really great developers in the community... but for all its technical merits, and all its contributions to the wider FOSS community (including even Google's ChromeOS), it just doesn't have the ambition/branding/vision to be a popular distro. It's like Steve Wozniak, compared to Steve Jobs: much less trendy and largely unheard of these days, but still, in fact, better with the actual technology... just too geeky to be interested in marketing itself.
14 • Kernels of many flavours (by TheTKS on 2023-05-22 13:41:21 GMT from Canada)
Running several distros, x86_64 and ARM 32 & 64 bit, several of the poll choices apply, but I don’t roll my own kernels and don’t modify the project-provided kernels.
Each distro serves its own purposes, with limited overlap in use between them.
When stability is really important to me - most of my usage - I use the stable/main/LTS version of the distros, Slackware and Xubuntu, and use the kernels provided.
When stability is less important, and for one oddball piece of hardware, I use a mix of distros - Slackware -current, Arch, Ubuntu and Raspberry Pi OS, and again use the kernels provided.
TKS
15 • Open Source on Mobile Phones (by Walt on 2023-05-22 15:05:19 GMT from United States)
I found the review of UBports 20.04 interesting, and I understand the appeal of having an Open Source OS on one's mobile phone. As someone who does not follow this area of development all that closely, I'm wondering which such efforts actually work on mobile phones for making calls (presumably still the basic purpose of a mobile phone) and work with any of the major providers here in the United States (AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon). It seems to me that the major providers, because of whatever proprietary software they install, would not be amenable to supporting or even allowing a phone with an OS such as UBports. If I'm wrong or off-base, please enlighten me.
16 • What about GrapheneOS? (by CS on 2023-05-22 16:08:17 GMT from United States)
IMO these "Debian on a phone" ideas are just never going to be that useful. If you want a portable server with a battery backup laptops do a better job.
I recently heard about GrapheneOS and would be more interested in learning about that. Does it let your phone work as a phone? Does it protect your privacy? Is it open? That sort of stuff.
I searched on the site but it's on an exclude list and it doesn't seem to have been reviewed in the past. I could have missed it of course but if not I personally would find info on it more valuable than the other "on a phone" options I've seen so far.
17 • Hardware and carriers (by Jesse on 2023-05-22 16:53:33 GMT from Canada)
@15: "I'm wondering which such efforts actually work on mobile phones for making calls (presumably still the basic purpose of a mobile phone) and work with any of the major providers here in the United States (AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon). It seems to me that the major providers, because of whatever proprietary software they install, would not be amenable to supporting or even allowing a phone with an OS such as UBports."
The issue usually isn't software. That is, in most places, it doesn't matter which OS you use on your phone. The carriers don't do anything to filter or support an OS.
What does tend to matter is the cell frequencies supported by the hardware. I can run UBports, Murena, or Manjaro on a phone and it will find with any carrier, so long as the phone supports the proper range of cell frequencies.
With that, said, things are getting slightly harder now in the USA. Carriers are switching to a specific type of cell support which also requires OS functionality. It does filter OSes specifically, but if your open source OS doesn't support the frequency/protocol then it's effectively kicked off the network. Other countries don't seem to have this limitation, at least it isn't a problem in Canada.
18 • Kernel version (by Will on 2023-05-22 18:36:29 GMT from Spain)
I seriously doubt that 40% of the respondents are using latest-stable kernel. This would be atypical for most distros. Mint is on longterm-supported aka 5.15. I think it sounds reasonable - as in I keep my system up to date, but most distros out there are not running the 6 series just yet. Sure, there are plenty that are, but a plurality of users, nah.
19 • ubports and navigation (by Will on 2023-05-22 18:47:53 GMT from Spain)
I tried ubports on their recommended hardware a year ago (a nexus 5, yes it's very old at this point, but it was what they recommended and still do today). The nav experience was so bad, it was hard to believe. It took around 30 minutes to get it to locate and then it would lose it every hour or so and need another 30 minutes to find again. This isn't an abnormal experience either, plenty of posts on it.
I so desperately want to get off my iphone/android, but the nav thing is a deal killer. I don't need much from my phone - if it did nav so I could find my way around places I don't know and the phone worked, I would switch - even if texting and browsing weren't possible. But, I just need nav!
I can't believe how hard nav is for open source phones. But, I keep hoping. My iphone 6 is really showing it's age (not really, the phone hardware is fine, just the forced obsolescence of the software - no updates after so many years, makes it impossible to run up to date apps). This year, it started complaining that the browser was unsupported on some websites, all cuz apple doesn't want to allow updates. Sheesh. Pulease get nav working ubports folks!
Will
20 • Finding ip address (by aaro on 2023-05-22 22:59:11 GMT from Venezuela)
You can also use level 2 scan with arp-scan. "arp-scan -l" will show all devices on your network with their ip and mac addresses. Pretty useful.
21 • @18 Kernel Version (by Reyfer on 2023-05-22 23:23:26 GMT from Venezuela)
Why do we, as humans, constantly fall to this mental trap that "if I don't use it, it must mean nobody else does"?
Debian Testing (soon to be stable in a month) uses kernel 6, Manjaro uses kernel 6, Fedora 37 uses kernel 6
22 • Kernel 6 (by artytux on 2023-05-23 05:32:30 GMT from Australia)
Don't forget driving MXLinux KDE ahs with Kernel 6, it's good real good.
23 • @18: (by dragonmouth on 2023-05-23 12:23:45 GMT from United States)
Generalizing based on one's habits and actions can and will get one in trouble.
You may use the kernel that comes with your distro but thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of others like to install the latest and greatest kernels. My daily driver, PCLinuxOS, comes with 5.x kernel. However, I promptly replace it with the latest one and have been doing so for the past 10+ years. HYaving said that, I realize that not all users are so adventurous.
24 • @15 @19 Alternative mobile phone OS (by Kazlu on 2023-05-23 12:45:10 GMT from France)
I have been using SailfishOS for a few months on a Sony Xperia 10 II. I have not been totally convinced by it, but the base functionnality is there. It is a disappointment... compared to LineageOS. I think I might just revert to LineageOS for the functionnality, and because SailfishOS still feels like a beta... However, compared to UBports, it's way ahead. Plus Jolla partners with Sony so that the OS is well(ish) supported on a number of Sony devices. So even if I wouldn't recomment SailfishOS to the average Joe, maybe you guys would be interested in it since according to your posts your expectations are pretty low. Maybe it would suit you:
- calling, texting works (in Europe at least)
- MMS works on and off, I cannot find a permanent fix
- tethering works after changing some settings
- navigation works, although it takes a few minutes to locate you, it's stable and does not stop working. I am using OSM scout with some offline maps, the rest is online
- email works (limited mail client though), web works, calendar with CalDAV works
- camera works
- nextcloud clients (not great but work), matrix client (partial support but what is there works), mattermost client, etc.
There is also a (paid) Android compatibility layer to install Android apps, but I did not try this.
25 • @24 MMS unfix (by mandatory name on 2023-05-23 13:53:45 GMT from Germany)
The "fix" for MMS working on and off is, unfortunately, to not use MMS. This is because at least some of the big European carriers are abandoning - as in no longer providing - this protocol, because it is allegedly no longer being used much. Soon it will not work at all any more ...
26 • @21 and @23 kernel version (by Will on 2023-05-23 15:53:11 GMT from United States)
No trap fallen into. As I said, plenty of folks run 6.x kernels, but I stand by the sentiment that I seriously doubt a plurality are. I think that a lot of folks claiming to be on stable are confused. The question should have been written as what kernel version are you running, ? and had actual version numbers with simple instructions to make things accurate and consistent such as:
dmesg|grep 'Linux version'
Then I would have been less skeptical.
You both seem to have misread my note - I made no personal claims about what I run. I was saying that it probably sounds reasonable to someone who reads the question "How recent is your kernel?", and who keeps their system up to date, that they would be running "Stable - latest" or maybe "Stable - maintained" regardless of what their actual kernel version was.
No worries though, if you think everybody (a plurality) are running 6.x kernels, have at.
Will
27 • @24 Alternative mobile phone OS (by Will on 2023-05-23 16:01:38 GMT from United States)
Sounds interesting enough to give it a shot. I had seen Sailfish and LineageOS, but I haven't gotten around to trying them. Distrohopping is addictive, very little hardware investment, if any and widely varied outcomes. PhoneOShopping on the other hand is painful - gotta get the right phone, gotta set up whatever crazy dev environment is required to load the phone, then, when it goes south, time to get the next right phone and so on. Expensive and somewhat painful process. Still, for peace of mind, it's prolly worth it. I just need a gap year every so often :)
28 • kernel (by Skullcandy on 2023-05-23 22:28:50 GMT from New Zealand)
voted for stable-latest:
uname -r
6.3.3-desktop-1.mga9
running on a wide variety of not so new hardware from Athlon xp2400 to 5yo Core i5 processors
29 • Latest kernels run worse and slower than LTS kernels (by Andy Prough on 2023-05-24 03:11:32 GMT from Switzerland)
It's been well established that older LTS kernels, such as the 5.15 series, generally (or always) run faster and with fewer bugs than the latest kernels. So unless you are running the latest greatest hardware that was just released within the past few months or you have some truly unusual hardware setup, you are nearly always going to perform better with a stable LTS kernel.
Remember:
Latest kernels = new bugs and regressions
Stable LTS kernels = years of stability and performance tuning
30 • @25 MMS (by Kazlu on 2023-05-24 08:28:36 GMT from France)
MMS does work flawlessly on my dumbphone, my Android backup phone, my partner's Android phone... You may be right about gloomy prospects of MMS, but right now, it's supposed to work.
31 • @27 OS-hoppong on a phone (by Kazlu on 2023-05-24 08:39:22 GMT from France)
Agreed, hopping is way more hazardous on phones than on computers. I myself bought a Sony device with SailfishOS preinstalled, making sure it was also supported by LineageOS just in case. Honestly, if you already distrohop, installing LineageOS is not that difficult, but as you say, you better have a supported phone. I did not check the installation process of SailfishOS.
In terms of functionnality, LineageOS is awesome. Without Google apps and with F-Droid, it covers all my needs except for games (I use another, dedicated device for that, and I do not own a tablet). I just wanted to try something even more independant of Google and on paper SailfishOS is great thanks to the GNU/Linux base and isolation principles.
If I may offer some advice, follow my lead: Do not hop on phones every month. Rather, whenever you need to buy a phone next time because your current one is dead, chose your new phone while making sure it is supported by LineageOS/SailfishOS. Then, when you warranty wears off, ditch Android and install another OS until you're satisfied.
I like to buy refurbished phones myself, OS support is already established. Works great, I am never going back. I hope to not need a new phone anytime soon, but if I lose mine tomorrow, a refurbished Fairphone would be my target. Otherwise I've had generally good experiences with refurbished Sony and Samsung.
32 • @26 Really? (by Reyfer on 2023-05-24 14:45:22 GMT from Venezuela)
"No trap fallen into. As I said, plenty of folks run 6.x kernels, but I stand by the sentiment that I seriously doubt a plurality are. I think that a lot of folks claiming to be on stable are confused"
So your answer is that YOU are smarter than anybody else that replied to the poll so YOU understood the question but the rest of us didn't. Got it
33 • @26 Skewed Plurality (by Linux Revolution on 2023-05-24 15:25:45 GMT from United States)
Would you consider Fedora distribution a "plurality". Just with Fedora alone, I'd say a heck of a lot of people are using 6.x kernels.
34 • @32, @33 Really Skewed Plurality (by Will on 2023-05-24 15:38:01 GMT from United States)
Last comment on this one - plurality, as in most votes, but less than half... 4 of the top 5 distros visiting DistroWatch are 5.x kernels by default. Please try to be polite. I said it's fine if you disagree, but there's no need to be disrespectful.
Will
35 • clarification (by Will on 2023-05-24 15:42:42 GMT from United States)
With DistroWatch, stats are tricky... 4 out of the top 5 page hits are distros w/5.x kernels and the vast majority of the top 10.
36 • @35: (by dragonmouth on 2023-05-24 18:50:50 GMT from United States)
You are making the big assumption that users stick with the kernel the distro came with. Windows users are the ones that eat and drink whatever the developers serve them and ask no questions. Linux users are tinkerers. They update/upgrade as matter of habit.
37 • @34 Skewed plurality (by Reyfer on 2023-05-24 20:20:57 GMT from Venezuela)
Yes, you are right, no need to be disrespectful, but....I am not the one that implied that other people don't understand the poll.
And also, as has been proven several times in this same site and in several distro sites, Linux users like to tinker, and a very big percentage doesn't stick with the distro's shipped kernel
38 • How recent is your kernel? (by Fernando on 2023-05-24 23:19:42 GMT from Brazil)
@36 (dragonmouth):
"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. (Mark Twain)"
Yes, statistics are not facts!
Distrowatch's Opinion Poll is something very inaccurate in essence. Therefore, it could not be considered a reflex of truth. Even Distrowatch's PHR is nothing else than "ramdom data", not a measure for the popularity of distros.
So,,, Will (of Spain) MAY ACTUALLY BE RIGHT... I myself also don't believe that the majority of Linuxers worldwide prefer to replace a tried and tested "stable" kernel with a "cutting edge" one, given the risk of lowering the security level of their computers. To be honest, I did it only ONE time, many years ago, when I home-built a new PC. Off course, not all Linuxers are tinkerers (especially if they work almost 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and have a life, like me).
But in developed nations, where people always buy new hardware ahead of us living in Third World countries, there must be a higher need for doing frequent software updates/upgrades. In such a case, I would say that a "bleeding edge" kernel makes more sense than an LTS one, no matter how adventurous (dangerous) it be.
P.S.
The kernels in my two desktops and one laptop are 5.15, 5.10, and 4.19, respectively.
39 • @38 (by Reyfer on 2023-05-24 23:48:24 GMT from Venezuela)
Ok, I give up, you and Will can have it your way, people that visit this site answered a poll on this site, and still you both say you don't believe the poll because it goes against YOUR opinion on the matter....yes, I give up, nobody uses current stable kernel, all of us that selected that answer are being lied to by our distro of choice that says we're on 6 when, according to "what should be more logical" in reality we are on 5 LTS.
"Distrowatch's Opinion Poll is something very inaccurate in essence." Innacurate in which way? The poll doesn't claim to reflect ALL of the community, the percentages shown are based in THE PEOPLE THAT ANSWERED THE POLL ON THIS SITE, so I would say the poll is accurate in showing the percentages OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE THAT ANSWERED.
40 • Linux on smartphones (by Mike on 2023-05-25 09:01:42 GMT from Netherlands)
I once had high hopes for linux on smartphones. But the lack of software like whatsapp and other proprietary stuff makes it a no-go for me.
41 • How recent is your kernel? (by Fernando on 2023-05-25 12:11:08 GMT from Brazil)
@39 (Reyfer):
You misunderstood my words. I didn't say people who answer Distrowatch's Opinion Poll may be "lying". For sure, I believe they are honest __ including you! What I'm trying to explain is that we cannot see those numerical results as a mathematically exact proportion of the WHOLE Linux community, since the vast majority of us simply do not vote __ including me...
By the way, I couldn't express my point better than this: "Innacurate in which way? The poll doesn't claim to reflect ALL of the community, the percentages shown are based in THE PEOPLE THAT ANSWERED THE POLL ON THIS SITE, so I would say the poll is accurate in showing the percentages OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE THAT ANSWERED."
Correct! Distrowatch's Opinion Poll is just a small fraction of the whole Linux universe. Then, nobody will be able to know the REAL percentage of users whose computers run this or that kernel version. We can only "speculate" about it. And based on EVIDENCES (specifically, what I have seen by myself running in computers used by friends, family members, and co-workers), my particular OPINION is that the majority of people __at least in Brazil __ keep using LTS kernels of the series 5.x and 4.x.
But nobody is obliged to believe in "personal opinions", just as nobody is obliged to believe in Distrowatch's Opinion Poll, which in reality is a bunch of personal opinions translated as percentages... O.K.?
Peace!
42 • @40 Linux on smarphones (by Kazlu on 2023-05-25 14:42:37 GMT from France)
On paper, SailfishOS addresses this: A GNU/Linux OS with an Android compatibility layer. I can't tell how well this works though, especially when you rely on hardware features like location.
43 • @41 (by Reyfer on 2023-05-25 16:34:06 GMT from Venezuela)
Based on evidences in my country (Venezuela) with my family, friends, coworkers, people I deal with in my daily work in my company, people I work with in Italy, France, Japan, USA, and Australia, 65% of them use Stable-latest....but then again that is my experience. Plus, when you take into account how many people seem to use Arch, or Fedora, it seems stable-latest is pretty solid out there
44 • @41 Fernando: (by dragonmouth on 2023-05-25 17:12:39 GMT from United States)
If we follow your logic then ANY POLL is open to question, even voting. because there NEVER is a 100% participation.
Besides, this poll and any other DW poll reflects only the percentages of RESPONDENTS (those that bothered to answer the question). They DO NOT reflect the percentage of all DW readers or all Linux users. DW polls are not designed or meant to be scientific and/or rigorous. There are NO inferences that can be made from the DW polls.
45 • How recent is your kernel? (by Fernando on 2023-05-25 23:49:42 GMT from Brazil)
@43 (Reyfer):
The Linux users YOU deal with are certainly different from the people I deal with, that live in a country which is much more conservative than Italy, France, Japan, USA, and Australia. So we have different experiences. In my case, I work for a German company with a computer network that employs a relatively old Debian Stable system. If I still remember, it's Debian 9 'Stretch'. My boss has a laptop with PCLinuxOS 18.06. And my personal laptop uses MX 18.3 (rock-solid, much better than the version 19.4 AHS, which I rejected).
As you can see, not a single one of those computers has a "latest Stable" kernel, simply because their owners are not geeks. We all (myself included) prefer the proven STABILITY and SECURITY of an LTS kernel instead of experimenting with anything recently released just for the sake of updating. Not even my son's desktop PC __ a modern AMD Ryzen 5 __ departs from that standard I adopt since many years ago, when I became a Linux user.
To state it clearly, I'm a professional Linux user, not a geek playing with computers. For me, they are tools to do serious work, not toys to tinker with. The only person I know who doesn't think like me is a co-worker who upgrades his PC every 3 or 4 years with incredible regularity and change his operating system every time a new one is released. But he's a Windows gamer, so I cannot consider him a "normal" computer user...
46 • @45 (by Reyfer on 2023-05-26 01:53:03 GMT from Venezuela)
"To state it clearly, I'm a professional Linux user, not a geek playing with computers. For me, they are tools to do serious work, not toys to tinker with"
And I told you that I use Linux IN MY WORK, in Venezuela (you know, 3rd world country just north of Brazil), and about my interactions with people I WORK WITH....and you still tell me I am not serious, because I don't use the same kernel you use? Wow
I have been using Linux since 2004, completely replaced windows for linux in 2016, using Debian Testing on my main work machine and Sid on my personal machine since 2019....but maybe I am not a professional Linux user in your eyes because I "tinker"
47 • Let me clarify things a little bit more (by Fernando on 2023-05-26 03:48:53 GMT from Brazil)
@46 (Reyfer):
"....and you still tell me I am not serious, because I don't use the same kernel you use? Wow"
No, no, no, no, I DIDN'T MEAN YOU ARE NOT SERIOUS. Why you repeatedly distort what I say? Please stop interpreting my words in such a "literal" way!
It's more than obvious that you, dragonmouth, and probably the majority of Distrowatch readers/posters are VERY skilled people. Many of you are IT professionals with a large background in system administration. The problem is that such a kind of people is generally biased toward "the geeky way of thinking", and so they are almost unable to understand that the rest of us "Linux users without geeky bias" hardly ever do things the same manner as them.
And I am pretty sure the typical Linux user doesn't upgrade kernels as frequently as a typical Linux geek, in both the corporate and domestic environments. Indeed, the number of machines running stable Unix-like operating systems in industrial and commercial companies (where OLD kernels are preferably used) is much higher than in homes and schools (where Microsoft Windows is the dominant power by a large extent).
At least in Brazil, it's extremely difficult to find a Linuxer out of the corporate environment. I don't know the situation in Venezuela and the rest of South America, but I hope it be better.
48 • @34, @45 kernels used in MX (by Hoos on 2023-05-26 08:18:17 GMT from Singapore)
re: "....4 of the top 5 distros visiting DistroWatch are 5.x kernels by default....",
and
"And my personal laptop uses MX 18.3 (rock-solid, much better than the version 19.4 AHS, which I rejected)."
Just a little observation on trying to use MX (as one of the 5 distros with the most page hits on DW) to support a conclusion that its users mostly use LTS kernels:
- MX's standard version may be using Debian's default supported kernel as its own default, but MX also has AHS (advanced hardware support) versions which use much newer and non-LTS kernels which MX packages. So one cannot assume that an MX user is automatically on the standard LTS kernel version.
- on all versions of MX, a simple graphical package installer is provided which makes it easy to install newer kernels, in particular the Liquorix kernels which MX packages.
So what kernel, really, are most MX users using? It may not be as straightforward as it seems.
49 • On arguing and common sense (by Cubehead on 2023-05-26 08:53:11 GMT from Netherlands)
I can't believe that you are still arguing about something so easy. Is it your lack of English-speaking skills, your lack of logical reasoning, or your lack of "common knowledge"? It seems like a combination of all three.
"If we follow your logic then ANY POLL is open to question, even voting. because there NEVER is a 100% participation."
Basically, it is always 100% participation, even if only 1 in 8 billion votes. There are voters and those who abstained from voting. The first ones are active voters, and the later ones are passive voters.
20 people on DW voted: 7 voted for X, 6 voted for Y, and 7 abstained. X wins, and the result is irrelevant...
Because the "Users"...
Linux users are multimillion-dollar companies, and what kernel they use we can only guess. We don't know.
Linux users are big institutions, and which kernel they use can be safely assumed because we know what OS they are using. Princeton University likely uses the RHEL (Springdale) kernel that comes with the OS version they use.
Linux users are private people who use Linux to prolong the life of their hardware after Mac or Windows support ends. In most cases, they don't care for the OS but for their applications, and in most cases, they are running Ubuntu or Fedora. Fedora uses the latest kernel, and Ubuntu maintains its own.
Linux users are DW commenters, who are a non-representative group by absolutely all means. They are not only less than 1% of 1% of 1% of all Linux users, but a collection of individuals who can't agree on anything else except "if something works for the majority, then it is evil."
"Distrowatch's Opinion Poll is something very inaccurate in essence."
This statement is absolutely correct.
"The poll doesn't claim to reflect ALL of the community, the percentages shown are based in THE PEOPLE THAT ANSWERED THE POLL ON THIS SITE, so I would say the poll is accurate in showing the percentages OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE THAT ANSWERED."
"Innacurate in which way?"
The sentence above the question exactly explains why it is inaccurate. Since the poll does not reflect all of the Linux users but only the opinion of the most irrelevant of all irrelevant users, it reflects only the opinion of those few irrelevants. Such a poll is accurate only for and among those few DW irrelevants, and has absolutely no relevance for the Linux landscape in general.
50 • Kernel polling (by El Guapo on 2023-05-26 09:14:56 GMT from United States)
We'll need another poll in a week so to opine on whether the winner of this week's war is Lilliput or Blefuscu.
I have four systems: two with 6.2xx, 0ne with 6.0xx and one with 5,15xx. When using them, I can't really tell which is which unless I look. Big end? Little end? Does it matter?
51 • Polls wouldn't be needed with telemetry (by Cubehead on 2023-05-26 09:26:17 GMT from Netherlands)
Thanks to telemetry, Microsoft can exactly tell how many people in which country use some type of graphics card or network adapter, how much RAM people have installed, what software they are using, how long per day they use their computers, etc. It's much better to know than to assume or rely on surveys.
This can help develop future products more effectively, because you know that there is no point in developing something that almost nobody uses, but it also puts us at risk that it could be abused for personal profit, as one knows what to implement in Windows 11 to make most of the hardware perfectly capable of running it obsolete.
There is no advantage without a disadvantage, and people stay people. If they can use something to their advantage, they will do it.
The problem is with us, the people, not with technology developed by us.
52 • @50 • Kernel polling (by El Guapo from United States) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-26 11:09:51 GMT from Netherlands)
"We'll need another poll in a week so to opine on whether the winner of this week's war is Lilliput or Blefuscu."
Better not. ;)
This would be like "can't think" deciding if "can't think 1" can't think more than "can't think 2."
:) :) :)
A better idea would be to discontinue DW polls so the people don't end up in debacles. ;)
Based on the only half-way representative list we have and can trust, I'd say the winner is:
Ubuntu 22.04
(Ubuntu 21.12% vs. Mint 8.96% vs. Endeavour 0.84% vs. MX 0.44% vs. PCLinuxOS 0%)
Kernel:
Ubuntu 5.19 non-LTS kernels
https://github.com/linuxhw/Trends/tree/master/
https://linux-hardware.org/
This is, of course, not a representative list (as explained in @49), but it's the best we have.
* I also didn't send any new data to linux-hardware.org since 2016.
(followed by 6.2.6 and 5.15.0 kernels)
53 • @32, and the winner is. . . (by El Guapo on 2023-05-26 13:16:25 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu 22.04" So is that big endian or little endian?
I doubt the folks running DW were out to decide the kernel championship, but they must be enjoying the ensuing battle. These simple weekly questions asking people's preferences keep the comments section from being totally boring, and may make for more page-views as well. So by all means, let's have more. Of course, some people will let their sense of righteousness and self-importance boil over (and the includes you), but that's part of the fun. Lilliput forever!!
54 • flame to fire (by Will on 2023-05-26 14:26:40 GMT from Finland)
I completely disagree :).
But seriously, the argument keeps spiraling out of control, one minute it's a critique of the question (stable-latest being, I would argue, intuitively misleading), the next it's about samples not being representative (the DW poll has an inherent self-selection bias, so what? It doesn't ever claim to be representative of a broader population), then it's ad-hominem attacks on people's character, claiming you said this (emphatically mischaracterized), when what they said was something else, cross talking like crazy, then moving to let's abolish DW polling - raucous man. If I was Jesse & Co,, I'd do a poll asking if anyone cares what version of the kernel folks are running.
Will (maybe from Finland, if the vpn's working right)
p.s. I'm a long time linux user and tech pro (used the pre 1.0 kernel). I'm really tall, too, so I know what I'm talking about.
55 • @big-little El Guapo (by Cubehead on 2023-05-26 15:55:58 GMT from Netherlands)
"Ubuntu 22.04" So is that big endian or little endian? "
Of course little—it runs on Intel iCore 64-bit processor; not running Ubuntu 22.04 on Mac from 2003. ;)
"Of course, some people will let their sense of righteousness and self-importance boil over (and that includes you), but that's part of the fun. Lilliput forever!!"
(Is that something like Lili put it in herself in? Are you Lili putting it in?) ;)
Some people know, while others talk nonsense or play "smart."
I suggest the subject should be all except Cubehead. ;)
But seriously, NOBODY gives a damn for DW, and even more for the DW folk. :)
56 • Final words (by Fernando on 2023-05-26 21:41:49 GMT from Brazil)
@55 (Cubehead):
>>Some people know, while others talk nonsense or play "smart."
<<
It really doesn't matter if anybody's saying is incorrect (nonsense) or correct (knowledge), once EVERY opinion is welcome in a discussion forum like this. Traditionally, I have learnt more and better when other people show me different points of view. Of course, they have different insights, and I must have the dignity to give them attention because I MAY BE WRONG, eventually.
Anyway, I wanna THANK YOU for providing the Web address below:
https://github.com/linuxhw/Trends/tree/master/
In that long sequence of statistics, I could see a lot of useful information that I didn't know yet.
>>But seriously, NOBODY gives a damn for DW, and even more for the DW folk. :) <<
Oh, my goodness... I consider Distrowatch simply the most important, the most wonderful, and also the most COHERENT Website in existence. PERIOD. Many years ago, still in the era of Windows Millennium and dialup networking, this sacred place was my introduction to the amazing world of FLOSS. What a happy day when I could manage to install and use Linux for the first time! (The distro was the legendary DAMN SMALL LINUX, with a kernel of the series 2.4. :)
As for the endless argumentation on this week's Opinion Poll, it should be just a friendly exercise of logic between Linux lovers, not a "bloody battle" between fanatical people who don't admit to be wrong. In fact, nobody cares about which kernel someone chooses for a particular distro, since all of us Distrowatch readers are smart enough to make wise decisions when choosing kernels, browsers, mailers, and any other piece of software.
O.K., folks, that's all. From the deepness of my heart, I widh you a very, very, VERY nice weekend full of harmony!
Number of Comments: 56
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