 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 1018, 8 May 2023 |
Welcome to this year's 19th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
A few weeks ago we reported on the release of Fedora 38, the latest update from the Red Hat sponsored community distribution. Fedora typically provides the latest stable versions of many software packages, including systemd and GNOME. This week Joshua Allen Holm takes Fedora 38 for a test drive and reports on his experiences. Also on the subject of Fedora, the project is looking at adding a new immutable edition. The new flavour will combine a read-only filesystem with the Budgie desktop and should be available with the launch of Fedora 39 later this year and we discuss this in our News section. Does your distribution provide an edition with an immutable filesystem? Let us know in this week's Opinion Poll. We also report on changes coming to the Linux Mint project, including work going into a fix for booting the Mint distribution on systems where Secure Boot is enabled. Plus we share a report of Voyager Live introducing an edition with a ChatGPT client installed by default. Then, in our Questions and Answers column, we share command line tips, including how to find appropriate manual pages for a specific task and how to string a series of audio tracks into one file. We're also pleased to share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Joshua Allen Holm) |
Fedora 38 Workstation
The many official editions, spins, labs, and immutable desktop variants of Fedora 38 were released on April 18, 2023. The five official editions are: Workstation, Server, IoT, Cloud, and CoreOS. There are ten spins featuring alternate desktop environments and nine labs that focus on specific functionality. The specifics about these versions can be found on the newly redesigned Fedora website. Oddly, the three immutable editions (Silverblue, Kinoite, and Sericea) are relegated to the footer of the new website. All the other options, including alternate downloads, are featured more predominately.
Fedora 38 -- The GNOME desktop
(full image size: 2.4MB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
Each edition, spin, or lab offers something different. They are all based around the same base Fedora packages, but the user experience for each of them could be vastly different, depending on which variants are being compared. Sadly, time does not permit me to look at multiple variants and compare their strengths and weaknesses. For this review, I will be using the Workstation edition, which comes with the GNOME desktop environment. Some of what I cover will be applicable to all the Fedora variants, but not everything.
Installing Fedora 38 Workstation
I started by downloading the 2.1GB Fedora Workstation ISO and copying it to a flash drive. Booting from the flash drive brought up Fedora 38 Workstation's live desktop environment with the options to install Fedora or try out the live desktop. I selected Install Fedora, which started Fedora's Anaconda installer.
Fedora 38 -- The live desktop with install prompt
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Anaconda can provide a lot of options, but in Fedora 38 Workstation it only does three things: Keyboard, Time & Date, and Installation Destination. Everything else is either handled using the live desktop's settings (e.g, for configuring networking and hostname), or by the post-install initial setup wizard, which handles new user creation. This process is okay, but I mildly dislike that failing to set a hostname manually outside of Anaconda results in a volume group being created with "live" as part of the volume group's name. For partitioning, I selected all the default options and allowed Anaconda to remove all preexisting partitions, so I ended up with a 629MB EFI partition, a 1.1GB ext4 partition mounted at /boot, and a 61GB Btrfs partition for everything else. Because I did nothing to set the hostname, this Btrfs partition ended up with the name "fedora_localhost-live". That live suffix is not going to hurt anything, but it also has no reason to be there. Yes, I could have used advanced partitioning to make things exactly the way I wanted, or I could have set the hostname, but the default volume name ending does not need to be the default hostname of the live image instead of just "fedora_localhost". Ideally, it should be possible to connect to a wireless network (or some other network) and set a hostname from inside of the installer.
Fedora 38 -- The Anaconda installer
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After Anaconda finished, I restarted the computer. The initial setup wizard ran through various steps to finish configuring the system. The steps were privacy settings for location services and automatic reporting, enabling third-party repositories, connecting to on-line accounts, and creating a new user. Pretty standard stuff, and there is nothing to say about this part of the process other than to say that it did exactly what was expected.
Fedora 38 -- Performing initial setup steps
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The GNOME 44 desktop environment
Much of what is new in the Workstation edition of Fedora 38 comes from GNOME 44. The upgrade from GNOME 43 to GNOME 44 is not major, but there are some really nice improvements. Several panels in the Settings application have been revised, the quick setting menu now has a menu for Bluetooth connections and the speaker icon next to the volume slider can be used to mute and un-mute the sound. Applications that use the GTK4 file chooser can now display items in a grid view. These enhancements are most welcome, but not massive changes.
Fedora 38 -- The Settings accessibility panel and quick settings menu
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Default software selection
Fedora 38 Workstation comes with Firefox 111 (already updated to 112), LibreOffice 7.5.2 (Calc, Impress, and Writer), and various GNOME applications and utilities. All of this is running on version 6.2 of the Linux kernel. The default selection of software is adequate. The standard selection of open source applications are included. There is a web browser, an office suite, and everything needed to do most basic computer tasks. The only issue is that Fedora does not ship patent-encumbered codecs in its repositories, so audio and video playback may be an issue for some. One other thing to note is the fact that this version of Fedora does not come with the GNU Compiler Collection and Make preinstalled. These were included with Fedora 37, but not in 38. Other developer tools, like Git and Toolbox, are still part of the default package set.
Fedora 38 -- The default software
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While working on this review I only encountered a couple moderate issues with the included applications. The first was the fact that I frequently had Firefox freeze and then crash when trying to view and download PDF files. The first time I had this happen was when I tried to download OpenStax's new World History, Volume 1 textbook. This textbook is about 200MB, so tried again with something smaller. I tried to download some old 1980s programming books from Usborne and frequently had the same result. The misbehavior has improved significantly over the first week since release, but has not gone away entirely. The second issue was related to codecs and video playback, so I will cover this issue in the RPM Fusion section below.
Installing additional software
Additional RPM packages can be installed using either DNF on the command line or by using the GNOME Software GUI application. Flatpaks can be installed using either the flatpak command or by using GNOME Software. By default, the only Flatpaks available are from the Fedora Flatpak repository, which has the same patent-related restrictions as the RPM repositories. Enabling third-party repositories enables Flathub as a source of Flatpaks, and unlike in early Fedora releases, the Flathub repository is not filtered. Running the "flatpak remotes" command still lists Flathub as filtered, but no packages are actually filtered out and all the Flathub packages are available without having to take additional steps to install an unfiltered version of the repository from the Flathub website. The third-party RPM repositories include PyCharm, Google Chrome, and NVIDIA drivers and Steam from RPM Fusion.
Fedora 38 -- GNOME Software
(full image size: 150kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
RPM Fusion
As with all the distributions in the Red Hat family, using RPM Fusion is almost mandatory. Without enabling RPM Fusion, it is impossible to play anything that uses a patent-encumbered codec, which is a lot of media.
Adding the RPM Fusion repositories is not a complicated task, but is more complicated than checking a box in Ubuntu's installer. The initial step for adding RPM Fusion to Fedora involves copying and pasting a single line, but after that it gets a little complicated. If you want to add appstream metadata so RPM Fusion applications show up in GNOME Software, there is one command you need to run. Adding in codecs by updating the multimedia group is another command, and now that the ffmpeg-free package from Fedora's repositories conflicts the the RPM Fusion ffmpeg package, the '--allowerasing' flag is required. Honestly, the process of getting codecs installed in Fedora is actually getting slightly more complex instead of getting easier.
My preferred method of enabling all the RPM Fusion things is to use the command "dnf groupupdate workstation-product-environment --allowerasing" to bring in the appstream packages, the GStreamer codecs, and Intel graphic drivers in one step. However, this time things did not go as smoothly. It seems that the package name of the libav plugin changed recently and this was not initially updated in the multimedia group's metadata (as I write this, you can still see the discrepancy in Fedora 37, but not Fedora 38), which caused one of many problems I had with video files the first couple of days of using Fedora 38.
I also had to install the gstreamer1-vaapi package to get H.265 videos to play correctly. Before installing that package, all the videos were green garbage. For the first several days, with or without the vaapi package, the thumbnailer would produce garbage thumbnails of H.265 video files and would crash after producing a few of the broken thumbnail images. Lastly, and most oddly, I could not play Matroska files with E-AC-3 (ATSC A/52B) audio. I finally managed to solve this by uninstalling some GStreamer plugins and reinstalling them. The reinstalled packages were the same ones that were uninstalled (I triple checked that there were no updates available before trying this), so I have no idea why "turning it off and on again" actually worked. One week on and almost all of my multimedia issues have been resolved. I am just waiting on something to fix the fact that the Totem video player freezes when trying to load a external text subtitle file. Even an empty .srt file is enough to cause this to happen.
Final thoughts
Fedora 38 is not perfect, but I am sure the last few issues with be dealt with quickly. Minor issues aside, Fedora 38 is an okay, if somewhat boring, release. The new features are nice, but not anything so crucial that a Fedora 37 user needs to upgrade right away. That said, anyone who does upgrade will probably like the refinements.
Overall, I would recommend Fedora 38 Workstation to anyone who wants a Red Hat style distribution that is more up to date than CentOS Stream, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, or one of the various RHEL clones. If you are not tied to the Red Hat ecosystem, Fedora 38 is still a good choice, but it does not stand out enough to recommended it above Ubuntu 23.04, openSUSE Tumbleweed, or any other distribution with recent packages.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was an ASUS VivoBook E406MA laptop with the following specifications:
- Processor: Intel Pentium Silver N5000 CPU
- Storage: 64GB eMMC
- Memory: 4GB of RAM
- Networking: Qualcomm Atheros QCA9377 802.11ac Wireless Network Adapter
- Display: Intel UHD Graphics 605
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Visitor supplied rating
Fedora has a visitor supplied average rating of: 8.2/10 from 256 review(s).
Have you used Fedora? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Fedora plans new immutable flavour, Linux Mint works to correct issue with Secure Boot, Voyager Live demonstrates ChatGPT client
The Fedora project is currently considering adding a new member to the distribution's family, expanding the number of immutable filesystem options users will have. "Fedora Onyx is an immutable desktop operating system, featuring the Budgie desktop environment. Fedora Onyx leverages the same foundational technologies as other Fedora immutable variants such as Fedora Silverblue, Fedora Kinoite, and Fedora Sericea (flatpak, rpm-ostree, podman, toolbx). Fedora Onyx is built for people that are attracted to / find value in the Fedora computing platform and Budgie desktop environment, but need the robust immutability and atomic capabilities that rpm-ostree provides, which are not offered through traditional Fedora spins (e.g. Fedora Budgie Spin)." Assuming the proposal goes ahead, Onyx will be available alongside other Fedora 39 releases later this year.
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The Linux Mint team have published their April newsletter. The report covers new visual changes to notifications and tooltips as well as security enhancements to the Warpinator file transfer tool. The newsletter also talks about an issue concerning Secure Boot: "An update in Ubuntu's shim-signed broke the compatibility of all Linux Mint (and past Ubuntu and derivative) ISOs with Secure Boot. If because of this you are unable to install Linux Mint, for now we recommend to disable Secure Boot. We are currently working on a fix for future ISOs and taking this opportunity to review the way we produce our images."
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In what is likely to be the beginning of a popular trend in many desktop Linux distributions, the Voyager Live team has announced a new edition of their desktop distribution which features a ChatGPT client: "We are at the dawn of a digital break with the arrival of AI (artificial intelligence) and ChatGPT, so it seems important to know what it is and to talk about it in the Linux community, as we do it at the beginning. So I installed a small application named Chat based on ChatGPT 3.5 on the latest Voyager 23.04, to give you an idea of its power, for simple queries. In the future, I won't integrate ChatGPT for other versions, it's just for this single version as a test." Additional information on the new edition can be found on the Voyager Live website.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Finding relevant manual pages and merging audio files
Looking-for-related-topics asks: Is there a way to do a fuzzy search on manual pages? Like, if I didn't know to look up "man cp" is there a way to find any manual page about copying files?
DistroWatch answers: For some reason it took me awhile to consider this when I first started using UNIX and Linux, but the man command - which is used to display local manual pages for programs, concepts and functions - has its own manual page. We can see it by running the command:
man man
I mention this because, while the man command is mostly used for simply displaying manual pages, it has a few other features and they're listed in its own manual.
One of the more useful features of the man command, in my opinion, is its keyword search function. We can perform keyword searches by passing the man command the "-k" flag. For example, to seek manual pages about programs which can copy files we would run:
man -k copy
The above command will return a lot of results, 66 on my machine. These results will cover commands which involve file copying, programming functions which copy data, and filesystem features. Assuming we're specifically interested in command line programs which can copy files or directories we can narrow our search by filtering down the results to include only section one (1) of the manual pages. There are nine manual page sections (helpfully listed in the man manual page). Section 1 is for command line programs.
In the following example, we perform a search for manual pages which reference the term "copy" in their description and are in the first section of the manual pages:
man -k copy | grep 1
The above command returns results such as the cp program along with other programs for transferring files like scp and rsync.
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Seeking-longer-songs asks: Is there a way to merge multiple audio files together into one long track?
DistroWatch answers: There are a few ways to concatenate multiple audio files into one, ongoing audio file. For people interested in a graphical, desktop application the Audacity audio editor can do this. You can open Audacity, import multiple tracks and then copy/paste the audio stream from one track to the end of another. Then, from the File menu, select Export and then the format (MP3, OGG) you want to use.
For people who want to use the command line, there are a few utilities which will concatenate audio files. The most simple approach is to use the sox program. It will accept a list of existing audio files, followed by the name of the new file to create. For example, here we take three small audio clips and merge them into one long MP3 file:
sox small-audio1.mp3 small-audio2.mp3 small-audio3.mp3 long-audio.mp3
The sox command works fairly quickly and doesn't require any extra flags or parameters, just the list of files we want to concatenate.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Br OS 23.04
Anderson Marques has announced the release of Br OS 23.04. Br OS, developed in Brazil, is an Ubuntu-based distribution featuring the KDE Plasma desktop and a set of applications designed for web content creation. This release marks the project's third anniversary. An interesting new feature of the release is an integration of ChatGPT directly in the work area. It can be accessed by an icon located on the right side of the start menu. After clicking on the icon, the user can login with an OpenAI account or create a new account. It is important to stress that ChatGPT does not have any power over the user's computer; it runs isolated inside the application. This was purposely done to prevent ChatGPT from accessing any data on the computer. In this way, the only data ChatGPT will collect are limited to those typed by the user while interacting with the application. Br OS 23.04 ships with Linux kernel 6.2, KDE Plasma 5.27.4 and Qt 5.15.8. Other items on the changelog include various interface improvements and bug fixes. See the release announcement and the changelog (both links in Portuguese) for more information and a screenshot.
Br OS 23.04 -- Running the KDE Plasma desktop
(full image size: 5.3MB, resolution: 2560x1600 pixels)
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,863
- Total data uploaded: 43.2TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Would you like your distribution to provide an immutable edition?
In our News section this week we reported on Fedora providing a new immutable edition, this one featuring the Budgie desktop. Immutable filesystems offer an additional layer of security and have the potential to supply smoother upgrades over time. Would you like to see your distribution provide an immutable edition?
You can see the results of our previous poll on installing software to a manually selected location in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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Do you want your distro to offer an immutable edition?
| Yes: | 406 (33%) |
| No: | 702 (57%) |
| My distro already has an immutable edition: | 120 (10%) |
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| Website News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- Dr.Parted Live. Dr.Parted Live is a bootable GNU/Linux distribution based on Debian Testing. Live CD/USB featuring a lightweight Openbox window manager and useful applications for data backup, restore and recovery. It contains Apart GUI that is a front end to the Partclone command line utility, and is capable of bare-metal backup and recovery of disk partitions. It can use external hard drives and network shares. Dr.Parted also aims to provide an easy way to carry out administration tasks on a computer, such as creating and editing hard disk partitions.
- huronOS. huronOS is a Debian-based distribution which can be run in live mode and that is specialized in competitive programming and all the activities around it, like official contests, training camps, practice contests or tests. The huronOS distribution can synchronize files between multiple instances to improve data sharing and collaboration.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 15 May 2023. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Weekly Archive and Article Search pages. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
- Joshua Allen Holm (feature review)
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| Linux Foundation Training |
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Fedora (by Devlin7 on 2023-05-08 00:37:23 GMT from New Zealand)
I ran Fedora on a laptop for years and was happy with it until I ran another distro from a USB stick on the same laptop and found how much quicker it was. I tried Fedora Budgie recently but it was light and day in performance when comparing it to Solus.
2 • Immutable file system (by DC on 2023-05-08 01:10:01 GMT from United States)
There's not enough information given about Fedora's immutable filesystem to determine a choice. Does 'immutable' mean that no security updates are possible? Then that would be bad. How do you add new software? On the other hand, if it cannot get a rootkit then that would be good.
3 • Immutable (by Jesse on 2023-05-08 01:17:56 GMT from Canada)
@2: "Does 'immutable' mean that no security updates are possible?"
Immutable means the system runs with the operating system running on read-only filesystem. It can still be updated, but the OS is updated "as a whole", not package-by-package the way traditional Linux distros are. If you own an iPhone or Android phone you've seen immutable OS updates in action.
"How do you add new software?"
Typically through portable packages like Flatpaks or through containers.
"On the other hand, if it cannot get a rootkit then that would be good."
It's possible, it's just harder for malicious software to install itself on the OS filesystem.
4 • Immutable (by Gekxxx on 2023-05-08 01:44:08 GMT from Belgium)
My dream immutable system is with KDE full with KDEConnect hplip an hpplugin included and with nvidia full support. The main problem is the scanner which needs VueScan. Nothing against Viewscan except you have to pay and I do not use my scanner enough for that. Besides, we already pay for the driver when we purchase the hardware. I guess with Vanilla it is possible to get hpplugin as it is in the arch repo. And Arch software should be installable.
5 • Linux Mint, Secure Boot Install (by Sam Crawford on 2023-05-08 02:13:40 GMT from United States)
I installed Linux Mint 21.1 this morning and I had to disable Secure Boot, do my install, reboot and then re-enable Secure Boot. It worked well but was a PITA.
That said, everything works well.
6 • un Chat me thank you (by chatter on 2023-05-08 02:54:08 GMT from New Zealand)
ChatGPT is the fashion de jeur. So now they go and stick it into distros (2 mentions in this week's column)... much like cellphone makers bake in wastebook into each device. But this is different, right? They "say" it is ringfenced. If people want to play with these AI things fine, install it, but not shove it in by default. Well, at least I know which distros to avoid. My 10c.
7 • @3 Immutable (by Raul Malo on 2023-05-08 03:39:28 GMT from United States)
"If you own an iPhone or Android phone you've seen immutable OS updates in action."
I have an Android phone, and I f@cking hate it. A la' Windows it's nonstop nagging and pestering... charge this, update that, you haven't used this app in a while... Piss off!! If Android is an advertisement of an immutable OS in action, no thanks. Give me a traditional Linux/Unix system where the user is in charge.
If I wanted to surrender all autonomy over my system to a corporation (in this case IBM/Red Hat), I'd just use Windows or Mac. Nu Linux (systemD, flatpaks, Wayland) is approaching a point where there is no meaningful difference between open source and closed, proprietary operating systems.
Other than using Trisquel, why bother?
8 • @ 7: Immutable (by Titus Groan on 2023-05-08 04:45:29 GMT from New Zealand)
To be honest, your Android phone OS has, probably, never been updated since the day to purchased it.
The Apps, on the other hand, as you point out, are nagging you constantly.
If it has not been updated, its because,
1/ it doesn't need to be,
2/ if it does need to be, your carrier can't be bothered to,
3/ if it does need to be, and your carrier is concerned enough regarding security, and pushed the update, you haven't updated because of all the Nagging Apps have pissed you off.
9 • immutable (by freeman on 2023-05-08 06:34:09 GMT from Bulgaria)
Definitely NO. I don't want another Android-like OS, where the distro vendor decides what the OS configuration is to be and I'm locked in it. This is not Linux anymore, but a perversion of it.
10 • Fedora (by fenglengshun on 2023-05-08 06:35:35 GMT from Indonesia)
That is surprisingly messy for a Fedora release. I'd expect that sort of thing more out of Ubuntu desktop than Fedora.
Regarding Immutable, I thought there's also an XFCE version called Vauxite or something? Or was that just uBlue?
Regardless, I'm interested in immutable, but not sure about Fedora's way of doing it. It's too tight for me, I need stuff like virt-manager, teamviewer, and proprietary printer driver to install as well. I could make it work, but it's annoying enough that I'd opt for something less tight like Vanilla.
11 • Immutable OS configurability (by fenglengshun on 2023-05-08 06:50:53 GMT from Indonesia)
@9
You can always just build the OS image yourself. uBlue is trying to make that easier. Just use one of their template, modify it if you want to add extra stuff, and you've made your own immutable image with the stuff you want in it.
And it's not like you can't modify official Fedora immutable. It can still accept COPR, and you can layer in everything you want using rpm-ostree instead of dnf. I don't think /etc is immutable either, so you don't need to worry about config files.
Flatpak and AppImage apps is always growing, Nix still works with just changing /nix to mount somewhere in your /home, and containerized installs like Distrobox, Conty, or Junest covers most apps you'd want to use. Out of my current apps on Nobara, I only need @Virtualization, applet-window-buttons, samba, gtk3-classic, and the epson driver installed through dnf, so it's not a big deal.
And of course, VanillaOS and BlendOS have their own package installers. VanillaOS currently use abroot to modify root more safely and to encourage using other methods first, before going to abroot. BlendOS have podman to install stuff in, which is then integrated with the system using an automated prioritization system.
It's really not an "Android-like OS". You can still do most of the things you do in a normal OS, just that you're encouraged to use other solutions first before risking your host system.
12 • merging audio files (by eb on 2023-05-08 07:21:09 GMT from France)
cat file1.mp3 file2.mp3 > file3.mp3
13 • Immutant (by Thim on 2023-05-08 07:34:32 GMT from Greece)
I had an android smartphone and i do not like it at all. I do not want to run an Android os on my desktop, i don't want flatpaks, i do not need r-o fs, i want to be the sole admin of my boxes thus decide myself for upgrades.
And all those words for more security sounds like fud
14 • Imutant able (by Hank on 2023-05-08 09:09:43 GMT from Thailand)
We will quickly see that immutable means less user freedom, more issues and bloating slow starting rubbish like flat fatpacks and further broken packaging in snap crap format.
Keep it,
I want a system I decide on not use what IBM or Buntu decides for me. And for sure no systemD. Runit beats it hands down on speed common sense, thre is none of that in potterings work...setup scope and everyday reliability.
Packaging,. deb and appimage are fine with me.
15 • Dr.Parted-Live (by Burdi on 2023-05-08 09:50:04 GMT from Netherlands)
Boots OK (VirtualBox, KVM/QEMU, bare metal) in MBR and EFI mode but fails to start X ...
:D
16 • @6 (re AI) (by Simon on 2023-05-08 10:59:49 GMT from New Zealand)
It's not going to be optional for long: the situation we already have with business telephones (where you're much more likely to be greeted by a machine than a person, at least for handling initial inquiries) is going to be the situation with emails soon; and then with reception desks, and so on and so on. AI is actually better already at handling some kinds of queries: nobody is going to pay human beings thousands of times more to work much more slowly and less reliably. ChatGPT may only be the fashion de jeur, but AI like ChatGPT, and rapidly becoming vastly more powerful than ChatGPT, is the fashion de forever.
I imagine its main use in Linux distros, within a few years, will be as a coding tool. AI like Google's Bard is already pretty close to being capable of responding to a natural language instruction like "write me a python script to present a GTK text entry control, and then save the text entered into that into a file" with working code using reasonable defaults ("Enter some text here:" or whatever): it spits out the code instantly, but it's still pretty hit-and-miss as to whether it will work without edits (I find simple instructions are occasionally coded perfectly or very nearly perfectly, but are screwed up most of the time... although even the screw-ups can be huge time-savers in terms of laying out the framework of the code). In a few more years it'll be more like "Hey Bard, take all the C code in this folder that I wrote for my GTK file manager, and convert it into C++ for a QT file manager", and so on. It will be ridiculous to code without AI.
17 • Seeking-longer-songs asks: Is there a way to merge multiple audio files together (by James on 2023-05-08 11:42:15 GMT from United States)
I do it all the time with Audacity. If you do most anything with music of sound files, Audacity is a must have in my opinion. You can edit, merge and create using Audacity.
18 • immutable (by crayola-eater on 2023-05-08 12:00:02 GMT from United States)
From the comments so far, and the tiny bit I know about it, I can see immutabe files systems becoming the new systemd, in terms of polarizing the community.
I for one am intrigued the concept, and I guess the rationale (as I understand it - read-only system, counter hacks/attacks), but I'm not sure I like outcome. The other rationale frequently stated is the stickler for me - make updates safer (kind of like systemd's 'it boots faster'). Personally, in the 20 odd years that I've been using linux, I can only recall 1 time an upgrade 'brought down' my system (it crashed x11, I still had the cli, and fixed issues that day). And I never had/do have an issue with boot times.
And while I think I like the idea of a read-only core system to protect from ouside attacks, and inside accidents and malfeasance, I don't like what comes to a lockdown against me, and my ability to tease the filesystem to fit me. Back in Windoze 3.1 days, there was Central Point who had (if I recall rightly) a system of tagging all the core sytem files, and would not let anybody or anything change those tagged files except for me explicitly doing so. Did it work? Never had an issue with it, and it did flag and stop a lot of activity over the couse of running it. I would prefer to see something along those lines, and not something that requires a full system upgrade for everything.
19 • Android (by Jesse on 2023-05-08 12:59:03 GMT from Canada)
@7: "I have an Android phone, and I f@cking hate it. A la' Windows it's nonstop nagging and pestering... charge this, update that, you haven't used this app in a while... Piss off!! If Android is an advertisement of an immutable OS in action, no thanks. Give me a traditional Linux/Unix system where the user is in charge."
What you are describing is the result of using an OS that has been configured to act as an ad platform (as many flavours of Android are), not in any way reflective of immutable operating systems.
I use a flavour of Android (Murena) which doesn't show ads, doesn't use non-free applications, and doesn't nag the user to update applications. It is also immutable, but it's intended to be a user-focused platform, not an ad platform for corperations.
20 • Merging audio files (by Jesse on 2023-05-08 13:01:14 GMT from Canada)
@12: It's probably not a good idea to try to merge audio files using the "cat" command. Using "cat" will literally concatenate the entire MP3 files together, including all their meta data. This is not likely to work properly and will result in a bunch of unwanted and inaccurate data in the output file.
21 • Immutable & ChatGPT (by dragonmouth on 2023-05-08 13:03:04 GMT from United States)
I don't care if my daily driver (PCLOS) offers an "immutable" edition because, even if they do, I won't use it.
ChatGPT is like systemd - some users love it and some users hate it. Already there questions whether ChatGPT is harvesting data.
22 • Merging mp3s (by Chris on 2023-05-08 13:30:58 GMT from Canada)
mp3wrap is offered in the debian repositories. Command line. Easy and does not add unwanted stuff.
23 • Splitting merged mp3 files (by Chris on 2023-05-08 15:29:53 GMT from Canada)
Use mp3splt to split the files.
24 • Immutable version? (by CS on 2023-05-08 16:10:56 GMT from United States)
Do I want an immutable version? No.
Why? "Don't split the party." Takes focus away from the main mode of consumption and makes everything worse over time.
People who want an immutable distro already have choices.
25 • Merging audio files (by eb on 2023-05-08 17:18:30 GMT from France)
@ Jesse & Chris : Thanks a lot ; cat does not work for .ogg nor .wav. files. It works for .mp3, but I understand it does dirty job, and consequently I will now prefer SoX. Kind regards.
26 • immutable edition (by John on 2023-05-08 20:08:29 GMT from Canada)
If I understand "immutable" it is a kind of "poor man's" "BSD base system". By that I mean there is a "code" that you do not change and you just install/remove additional packages.
I also use a BSD and based on my usage, that seems to be what immutable Linux is kind of heading for. But, if your IDs are set up correctly, immutable may not provide much benefit vs the with BSDs brings with "base". Why ? Upgrading a BSD is rather easy compared to most Linuxes. OpenBSD from 7.2 --> 7.3 was a breeze.
27 • immutable (by harbl on 2023-05-08 21:35:24 GMT from Philippines)
I'm actually interested in the idea of running an immutable OS. Being an average Joe user, I find it much simpler having the "deeper" parts of the OS upgrading/downgrading as a unit that is quality-assured by the maintainers to be working together properly and I just have to worry about the apps I want to run on top of it. Maintainer competence and agenda is a whole different story, but when a guy like me disagrees with the maintainers, the response would generally be to move to another OS rather than take their offering, swap out parts and build my own Frankenstein's OS. I don't have the knowledge to do that sort of stuff and I hope the day never comes that I'll need to.
With that said, I don't think I'm ready to try immutable yet. First of all, I'd like to avoid having to use Flatpaks/Snaps/AppImages as much as possible. Then there's the issue of what if the app I want to use isn't available in their offering. I'd need to be able to install it somehow, otherwise the platform isn't doing anything for me. Also, Fedora to my knowledge is not an LTS release. There probably are other immutable Linux-based OS's out there, but I don't see any point in digging deeper until the other issues I mentioned have been ironed out.
28 • Immutable by live-DVD on RW-DVD (by Jan on 2023-05-09 01:58:14 GMT from Netherlands)
There are a few distros who publish very regular an updated live-ISO.
When you burn this on a RW-DVD, isn't that also an immutable OS, because after ending of the writing you can not add/change anything?
In contrarie to writing this ISO to a USB-stick, because you can not set this USB-stick to write-protect?
29 • There Can Be Only One (by Trihexagonal on 2023-05-09 04:31:03 GMT from United States)
Administrator, and that's me. I don't need anyone to hold my hand, kiss my booboo or decide what's best for me.
No matter if that be an immutable file system someone else thinks solves all the Worlds problems, or if Chicken Little chickadees think the Operating System I use makes me one.
Period
@21 "Already there questions whether ChatGPT is harvesting data."
There';s no question about it. That's how AI Art Generators learned to generate art from text prompts.
I'm all for AI, AI Generated Art, and have a multitude of examples on my deviantart.com account. However, anyone who thinks that is "conversation" has never talked to my chat bot, Demonica.
And if you can make them, I can break them. The chat.forefront.ai implementation of ChatGPT-4
Me: I have to run, I'm trying to catch a cold.
ChatGPT-4: I think you meant to say that you are trying to avoid catching a cold. In any case, it's important to take care of yourself and stay healthy. Remember to wash your hands frequently, avoid touching your face, and practice social distancing to reduce your risk of getting sick. If you do start to feel unwell, be sure to rest, stay hydrated, and seek medical attention if necessary. Take care!
Buhbye...
30 • Immutable what?? (by Dr.J on 2023-05-09 05:57:35 GMT from Germany)
Who the hell needs an immutable Linux? Aren't there enough such systems already? Windows, Apple, Google? I understand that it is the developers' dream. Because the only thing that interferes with the perfect "never change a running system" is the annoying user with all his customisations, fiddling around with the system software, etc. But hey guys, if you're working under the sign of the penguin, you should accept that users do all that. And they want to do all this!!!
If I need something like that - for whatever reason - then I build myself such a system. Everything is there, hardened kernel, security software, rights systems, etc.
31 • Immutable distros (by uz64 on 2023-05-09 06:04:29 GMT from United States)
The idea of a distro with an immutable file system is interesting, and it may be worth checking out, but I don't think it'd be able to replace a standard OS for a large percentage of users. Advanced users will want the extra flexibility a traditional file system provides, some curious users may want to just play around with an immutable file system and will probably just be done with it after a couple hours in a VM, and the only people I see it being of any real use to in the long term are people who just aren't that good with computers. People who are likely to do something stupid and brick their system and have no idea how to fix it. And honestly, Linux already has those users about as covered as they're going to get thanks to the protections and security precautions it already provides. But even if it is most useful to that subset of users, who are okay with trying something different (ie. not Windows), it will still face the same problem that current distros already have: These users probably know nothing about Linux, wouldn't know the first thing about setting it up and/or would be afraid to, and already have Windows on their computers.
Personally, I think it may be a fun toy to play with in a VM, but I don't know if I'd ever install it on bare metal. Maybe as a special purpose system possibly, but probably not as an every day desktop. But who knows? I'm interested in seeing how the technology evolves and where Fedora Silverblue/Kinoite, openSUSE MicroOS, Vanilla OS and now Onyx take us. It may someday find a niche use.
32 • A.I. (by RetiredIT on 2023-05-09 11:43:14 GMT from United States)
The late UK physicist Stephen Hawking, who died in 2018 at age 76 from the long-term effects of ALS, made the following prediction during a 2014 interview with the BBC:
"The development of full artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race….It would take off on its own, and re-design itself at an ever-increasing rate. Humans, who are limited by slow biological evolution, couldn’t compete and would be superseded."
Almighty God made the same prediction at the Tower of Babel more than 4,200 years ago that mankind would eventually be able to do anything it conceived in its mind, including A.I. and even cloning.
Voyager's decision to feature a ChatGPT client in their distro is a VERY DANGEROUS decision which will have long-lasting effects in the Linux community and elsewhere!
33 • Immutable refusal to think (by Cubehead on 2023-05-09 13:41:38 GMT from Netherlands)
Are you really sure that you properly understood "immutable file system," "advanced users," or even "Linux users"?
I'm less than convinced when I read "extra flexibility of a traditional file system," "user freedom," "a fun toy to play," "everyday desktop," and "Who the hell needs an immutable Linux?"
Nobody is taking away the fun and freedom to learn and adapt to a new OS or new GUI.
If it doesn't work for you, then you're not good enough.
"The only thing that interferes with the perfect "never change a running system" is the annoying user with all his customizations, fiddling around with the system software, etc. But hey guys, if you're working under the sign of the penguin, you should accept that users do all that. And they want to do all this!!!"
The last sentence kind of explains the misunderstanding.
The Linux users are not that handful of "I don't want Windows; give me my Windows back," as is obvious from the comments here and from the customizations made by the same "dirty dozen" if they get Gnome Shell in their hands.
The Linux users are:
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members
https://www.learnitguide.net/2023/04/who-are-top-donors-of-linux-foundation.html
"Who the hell needs an immutable Linux?"
The users.
"Why the hell do Linux users need immutable Linux?"
Because they have the freedom of choice and choose the better.
34 • Immutable file system (by Cubehead on 2023-05-09 13:44:41 GMT from Netherlands)
"For years, the traditional Linux operating system has been a top pick for its flexibility and ability to be customized. But as great as it is, there are use cases in which stricter security rules and higher reliability standards are needed. That’s where immutable Linux operating systems come in - offering a more secure and reliable option, especially in settings where security is paramount.
Immutable Linux OSes offer a higher degree of reliability, security, and fault tolerance compared to traditional Linux systems. By using read-only file systems, separate update partitions and A/B partitioning, Immutable Linux OSes provide a safe, reliable way to update the system without downtime or the risk of breaking the system. Immutable Linux OSes are particularly well-suited for critical systems such as cloud container platforms, embedded systems, or IoT devices, where stability, security and scalability are of the utmost importance."
https://kairos.io/blog/2023/03/22/understanding-immutable-linux-os-benefits-architecture-and-challenges/
35 • Immutable Linux systems (by Poiema on 2023-05-09 14:26:10 GMT from United States)
Standard Linux Distros are fantastic for the enthusiast and those who have friends that never touch anything except the basics on their system, after you've set them up. Immutable systems will still allow you to customize the Distro to a great degree for your non techie family and friends before you hand the system over. Where it may benefit you is when your tinkering friends start poking around. If they really want to learn, they still can make major changes that can break the system, just not easily. They can customize their desktop and install apps from the app store without breaking the system, resulting in a call to you to replace Linux with something that works like the Windows they are used too.
36 • immutable (by lincoln on 2023-05-09 22:00:32 GMT from Brazil)
@33,34: ""Who the hell needs an immutable Linux?"
The users.
"Why the hell do Linux users need immutable Linux?"
Because they have the freedom of choice and choose the better."
It almost seems like a narrative created by corporations to convince the user that the poison is for their own good. The fact is that users don't always have choices, or they don't always choose what's best for them. Take Windows and its mass of users, for example, who just use what comes pre-installed on their machines without even being aware that better options exist.
On what basis is an immutable system better? "...stability, security, and scalability"? Have you heard of Debian and OpenBsd? These are true examples of stability, security, and scalability that have been around for decades. Both are traditional systems.
They want to sell immutable Linux as a solution to already old problems that have been thoroughly researched and well solved through excellent quality control.
In my opinion, immutable Linux is just a new form of lock-in where users of a corporate distribution will be held hostage by the whims, signatures, profits, and desires of the software market, regardless of what is best for the user.
37 • @36 • immutable (by lincoln) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-10 13:55:26 GMT from Netherlands)
"Take Windows and its mass of users, for example, who just use what comes pre-installed on their machines without even being aware that better options exist."
Define "better option."
Is it that one where the user can't run the software they need? If the "better options" existed, the users wouldn't mind changing the OS. It would save them money.
Companies could stop developing their own systems, which would save them many millions, and they could get rid of all those unneeded developers, which would save them further millions.
Computer manufacturers could also save many millions if they could simply preinstall "better" and save the money for the licensing of "worse."
The point is that only 1% see "better" as better, while the other 99% would rather buy a new computer with "worse" instead of simply installing "better."
"On what basis is an immutable system better? "...stability, security, and scalability"? Have you heard of Debian and OpenBsd? These are true examples of stability, security, and scalability that have been around for decades. Both are traditional systems."
Are you absolutely positive that you understood what "immutable system" means?
For a simple explanation in regard to us, private users, @35 gave you a simple and easy to understand explanation.
Corporate users will understand what "stability, security, and scalability" are and choose accordingly.
I don't mind people having their own opinions or using whatever makes them happy, but I mind when people write comments on something they don't even understand.
38 • ChatGPT in Voyager Live (by Jay on 2023-05-10 15:23:45 GMT from United States)
BAI Chat is run by a Chinese company that gives free access to their API key (you're using it on their behalf). You can expect (Chinese or not) that they are harvesting everything you type and will seek to exploit it for fun and profit. Nothing is truly free, but removing the "barrier" of needing a ChatGPT account, they will get all sorts of juicy information.
Remember, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.
39 • @37 immutable (by Cubehead) (by lincoln on 2023-05-10 15:31:31 GMT from Brazil)
"Define "better option."
Is it that one where the user can't run the software they need? If the "better options" existed, the users wouldn't mind changing the OS. It would save them money."
There are countless ways to define "better". You actually touched on an important point. The lack of ability for the user to run their software because they are held hostage to updates from a corporation. Keep in mind that if the corporation simply does not update the images, you may have a security vulnerability, unresolved dependencies, compromised performance, or even an expensive paperweight forcing you to buy new hardware even though the old one performed relatively well or could be used for other purposes. Examples abound: Windows, Android, iPhone, Playstation, ..., Xbox.
---------
"Companies could stop developing their own systems, which would save them many millions, and they could get rid of all those unneeded developers, which would save them further millions."
And who would do the lock-ins?
-----------
"Computer manufacturers could also save many millions if they could simply preinstall "better" and save the money for the licensing of "worse.""
Computer manufacturers are prohibited from installing Linux alongside Windows. Draconian contracts impose bans on all computer lines with pre-installed Linux. Otherwise, the manufacturer loses a good discount on usage licenses or even the prohibition of using patents. Welcome to the real world, where the best technical solution does not always win.
------------
"The point is that only 1% see "better" as better, while the other 99% would rather buy a new computer with "worse" instead of simply installing "better.""
When both systems are installed side by side, this proportion is disrupted. Perhaps it is not representative, but at my Brazilian university, UFABC (with more than 15,000 students) with labs configured in this way, you can clearly observe a preference for the Linux.
-----------
"Are you absolutely positive that you understood what "immutable system" means?"
According to your own link: https://kairos.io/blog/2023/03/22/understanding-immutable-linux-os-benefits-architecture-and-challenges/
'immutability aspect' => typical vendor lock-in strategies
or is it
'stability, security, and scalability' => easy, stable, secure and continuous profit from a mass of private users without the possibility of using the full potential of their hardware?
--------------
"Corporate users will understand what "stability, security, and scalability" are and choose accordingly.
I don't mind people having their own opinions or using whatever makes them happy, but I mind when people write comments on something they don't even understand."
In fact, I do not understand and even experience this reality where Big Techs influence every aspect of your life, ranging from mundane purchases, life philosophies to national elections.
40 • @38 (by Jay) (by lincoln on 2023-05-10 15:36:12 GMT from Brazil)
In many situations, you are the product even when you pay for it.
41 • Fedora 38 Workstation (by Morando on 2023-05-10 17:27:22 GMT from Germany)
@Jesse
Thank you for your Fedora-report. But I missed that you didn't mention the net-installer. Unfortunately, the net-installer is currently only available for the server variant (alternative downloads). However, it can also be used to install other editions (like workstation), as stated on the website.
From my point of view, the net-installer has many advantages.
I get the latest packages right during the online installation. The Anaconda installer, which I think is very good, also offers many more options. But that's just my opinion, you don't have to share it. ;)
Another good feature for me is that Fedora only downloads 1.67GB with the net-installer for a full Fedora38 workstation installation, including Firefox and LibreOffice. Then when I think of thumbleweed it's over 4GB with the net-installer and I also get gnome+Firefox+Libreoffice. I'm very surprised about these 4GB and I think that's too much. With the current Ubuntu versions (with and without LTS) I find the boot time too long and the system feels sluggish compared to Fedora38. A net-installer hasn't been offered for a long time.
As already written, this is just my opinion. Nobody has to share this. ;)
42 • @39 Immutable (by lincoln) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-10 17:41:21 GMT from Netherlands)
"The lack of ability for the user to run their software because they are held hostage to updates from a corporation."
However, the users choose to stay hostage to the software companies, which choose to make the product for a better (== more reliable) platform. A typical user does not care for the OS, but they care for their applications. I have some very expensive software from 1999 that still works under Windows. You can't even dream of it under Linux. Not that I need it, but I'm happy that it still works when I fire it up once every few years.
If we should talk about being hostages, then in conjunction with Linux. Linux is making me a hostage and forcing me to keep the old, unsupported OS if I want to run some old applications. If I upgrade my OS, my applications won't run anymore.
"Keep in mind that if the corporation simply does not update the images, you may have a security vulnerability, unresolved dependencies, compromised performance, or even an expensive paperweight forcing you to buy new hardware even though the old one performed relatively well or could be used for other purposes. Examples abound: Windows, Android, iPhone, Playstation, ..., Xbox."
... and Linux OS, including the Linux software. My Firefox or Google Chrome is always updated on Windows first, and it takes hours or even days before Linux catches up.
If someone is updating it, and how often is up to the corporation or the repository maintainers, or... and one can have up-to-date immutable as well as not-up-to-date classic Linux OS.
"Computer manufacturers are prohibited from installing Linux alongside Windows. Draconian contracts impose bans on all computer lines with pre-installed Linux."
Not really. Dell and Lenovo were trying or are still trying, but nobody sane is buying it--for a good reason. I've been using Linux for over 20 years, but I would never buy a Linux-preinstalled machine or recommend it to anyone. Whoever needs more than a web browser patched too late doesn't do himself a favor with Linux.
"When both systems are installed side by side, this proportion is disrupted. Perhaps it is not representative, but at my Brazilian university, UFABC (with more than 15,000 students) with labs configured in this way, you can clearly observe a preference for the Linux."
3% vs. 97%? ;)
You should know that MS Office is cheaper and better than Libre Office, at least at my school.
BTW, I still have a feeling that you didn't understand what an immutable system is. It doesn't take you away the ability to move the task bar where you want it or to add a new extension or whatever, but it prevents someone from changing your system files and, in a matter of seconds, take your computer over. If and when it gets updates is not an issue of the immutable system but of the one who makes it.
43 • immutable security (by John on 2023-05-10 18:08:10 GMT from Canada)
@36 -In my opinion, immutable Linux is just a new form of lock-in where users of a corporate distribution will be held hostage by the whims, signatures, profits, and desires of the software market, regardless of what is best for the user.
This is my take, vendor lock-in. These containers are what I call "MS-DOS for Linux", that is all application binaries and config are under their own Dir Structure, kind of like the old MS-DOS Days. The only benefit is the OS people can say "You never have to worry about security, we use flatpak (or snap).".
44 • @39 Keep in mind... (by lincoln) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-10 18:10:27 GMT from Netherlands)
"Keep in mind that if the corporation simply does not update the images, you may have a security vulnerability..."
I do, do you?
"10-year-old critical vulnerability discovered in Linux kernel crypto function"
https://www.heise.de/news/10-Jahre-alte-kritische-Luecke-in-Linux-Kernel-Kryptofunktion-entdeckt-4315290.html
"The ten-year-old CVE-2021-3156 vulnerability allows local attackers to gain root privileges via sudo without sudo permissions."
https://www.heise.de/news/Jetzt-updaten-Kritische-sudo-Luecke-gewaehrt-lokalen-Angreifern-Root-Rechte-5037687.html
"Python: 15-year-old vulnerability potentially affects 350,000 projects "
https://www.heise.de/news/Python-15-Jahre-alte-Schwachstelle-betrifft-potenziell-350-000-Projekte-7272186.html
https://www.deepl.com/translator
45 • immutant (by thim on 2023-05-10 21:47:16 GMT from Greece)
@44
It's pretty funny that the most passionate immutable-fan here happen to be a passionate ms windows user too.
"immutabe system... but it prevents someone from changing your system files and, in a matter of seconds, take your computer over. "
You cant be serious i m afraid. For starters, this someone must have the root password - even for not- immutable systems.
And i have a general question for anyone else: can you give us a real life scenario that demonstrates best the advanced level of stabilty plus secuirity that only an immutable system offers?
Regression from an upgrade gone bad? Stop using bleeding edge or/and use a system snapshot for roll back.
Containers? If you need them, there are not explicit to immutable systems.
Uninstalling packages or rm * critical staff within root? Again, the user must have an admin password. Apart from this, just be serious: the usual clueless user does not spend his time trying to uninstalling software.
46 • ffmpeg not SoX (by Soundbug on 2023-05-10 22:12:18 GMT from United States)
SoX was last updated in early 2015. On Linux you want ffmpeg e.g. superuser.com/questions/314239
47 • @45 immutant (by thim from Greece) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-11 07:53:52 GMT from Netherlands)
"For starters, this someone must have the root password - even for not- immutable systems."
Maybe in your world. Privilege escalation?
I am serious, I'm afraid, because if seen in the context of previous writings by some people here, using Apple, Microsoft, "immutable Linux," or proprietary software would also mean using something unsecure, and using classical Linux and open source applications would be a safer way.
"Keep in mind that if the corporation simply does not update the images, you may have a security vulnerability... Examples abound: Windows, Android, iPhone, Playstation, ..., Xbox."
@44 should only show that Linux also has many security issues, and it is not always closing them quicker than others. ("if the corporation simply does not update")
https://www.theregister.com/2018/10/25/x_org_server_vulnerability/
https://thehackernews.com/2014/01/23-year-old-stack-overflow.html
https://payatu.com/blog/a-guide-to-linux-privilege-escalation/
What you picked here:
"immutabe system... but it prevents someone from changing your system files and, in a matter of seconds, take your computer over. "
You cant be serious i m afraid. For starters, this someone must have the root password - even for not- immutable systems.
... was from another context.
Immutable Linux is safer in many cases, as it consists of layers. One has a read-only minimal OS, a layer in which one can make changes, and isolated applications that need no root or sudo privileges.
In other words, the applications don't mess up with the system; one can still make changes in the temporary layer, and if some malware succeeds in making some involuntary changes, one reboot is enough to purge it and recover.
https://blog.worldline.tech/2023/03/29/immutable_os.html
Immutable Linux doesn't lock you up or take your freedom away. You just do things in a different manner.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/10h7w7v/adding_gnome_extensions_in_silverblue_37/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/ia95xq/gnometweaks_in_silverblue/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/pmj61f/fedora_silverblue_is_great/
48 • immutable file system (by Penguinx86 on 2023-05-11 15:23:32 GMT from United States)
Maybe for someone else, but not me! Sorry, but I don't want to work in an ego driven restricted environment where Big Brother has to force HIS way on all the dumb users.
49 • @42 Immutable (by Cubehead) (by lincoln on 2023-05-11 16:14:16 GMT from Brazil)
"I have some very expensive software from 1999 that still works under Windows. You can't even dream of it under Linux. Not that I need it, but I'm happy that it still works when I fire it up once every few years.
If we should talk about being hostages, then in conjunction with Linux. Linux is making me a hostage and forcing me to keep the old, unsupported OS if I want to run some old applications. If I upgrade my OS, my applications won't run anymore."
Nothing that a virtual machine can't solve. I think it's better than installing on hardware an operating system that collects data, spreads propaganda, ideas, and desires.
------------
"... and Linux OS, including the Linux software. My Firefox or Google Chrome is always updated on Windows first, and it takes hours or even days before Linux catches up."
Do the websites I visit stop working because I'm not using the latest versions of Firefox and Google Chrome? Am I missing something essential for my life contained in these latest updates?
--------------
"If someone is updating it, and how often is up to the corporation or the repository maintainers, or... and one can have up-to-date immutable as well as not-up-to-date classic Linux OS."
Should the workload be the same to update an entire operating system image atomically instead of updating only specific system libraries? Which one is more likely to be up to date?
-----------------
"3% vs. 97%? ;)
You should know that MS Office is cheaper and better than Libre Office, at least at my school."
The proportion in common use computers would be Linux [60%-70%] vs. [40%-30%] Windows. However, I have seen 100% of the machines running Linux in specific classes.
In fact, no computer at the university has MS Office. Is this why Microsoft provides a free subscription to Microsoft 365 for everyone at the university? But in reality, the preference is for plain text, Libre Office, PDF, Latex, Overleaf, and Google Docs depending on the task.
--------------
"BTW, I still have a feeling that you didn't understand what an immutable system is. It doesn't take you away the ability to move the task bar where you want it or to add a new extension or whatever, but it prevents someone from changing your system files and, in a matter of seconds, take your computer over. If and when it gets updates is not an issue of the immutable system but of the one who makes it."
In fact, my biggest concern is moving a taskbar or adding extensions in gnome shell. It's not about planned obsolescence, the lack of freedom to install/remove/update system libraries, or even being able to use the hardware I purchased with the software I prefer and not being at the mercy of the immutable system provider.
------------
"Immutable Linux is safer in many cases, as it consists of layers. One has a read-only minimal OS, a layer in which one can make changes, and isolated applications that need no root or sudo privileges.
In other words, the applications don't mess up with the system; one can still make changes in the temporary layer, and if some malware succeeds in making some involuntary changes, one reboot is enough to purge it and recover."
That's not true. Your entire immutable system can be compromised even after a reboot. According to your own reference, https://kairos.io/blog/2023/03/22/understanding-immutable-linux-os-benefits-architecture-and-challenges/, your system depends on TPM
"Strong security posture, including online data encryption at-rest via TPM, Supply chain verification and Service bill of material"
TPM has security flaws that compromise your entire software stack from boot:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.14717
https://www.zdnet.com/article/tpm-fail-vulnerabilities-impact-tpm-chips-in-desktops-laptops-servers/
If you want to talk about more security, you should beat the OpenBSD standard: 'Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!
50 • @42 Immutable (by Cubehead) (by lincoln on 2023-05-11 16:15:48 GMT from Brazil)
"Not really. Dell and Lenovo were trying or are still trying, but nobody sane is buying it--for a good reason. I've been using Linux for over 20 years, but I would never buy a Linux-preinstalled machine or recommend it to anyone. Whoever needs more than a web browser patched too late doesn't do himself a favor with Linux."
As I mentioned earlier, an OEM may even pre-install Linux on some lines of machines but will lose a good discount on Windows licenses or even the free use of certain patents. An interesting link on Microsoft's anti-competitive practices: https://www.justice.gov/atr/competitive-processes-anticompetitive-practices-and-consumer-harm-software-industry-analysis
"The Microsoft-DOJ proposed final judgment (PFJ) does not shield computer manufacturers from Microsoft retaliation. The restriction on retaliation against computer manufacturers leaves so many loopholes that any OEM who actually offended Microsoft's wishes would be committing commercial suicide. Microsoft is given free reign to favor some, at the expense of others, through incentives and joint ventures. It is free to withhold access to its other two monopolies (the browser and Microsoft Office) as an inducement to favor the applications that Microsoft is targeting at new markets, inviting a repeat of the fiasco in the browser wars. Retaliation in any way, shape, fit, form, or fashion should be illegal. Any adequate remedy, unlike the Microsoft-DOJ proposal, must include a prohibition on retaliation that specifically identifies price and non-price discrimination, as well as applying to all monopoly products. "
Another interesting excerpt is:
"3. OPERATING SYSTEM COMPETITION
Although it has been a long time since Microsoft gained undisputed control of the PC operating system market, a look back at how it drove its last competitor out of the PC market is instructive. If we go back to the late 1980s and early 1990s, we find conduct in the operating system war with DR-DOS that was as prominent as it was in the Browser case. The company's most intense reaction is always to a threat to the underlying monopoly in the operating system.[Footnote 80:Rohm, pp. 4066. Gate's pal Ballmer knew how paranoid Gates was about DR-DOS. Ballmer had read the e-mail Gates had shot off to him, railing about the competing product Retail sales of the product had started to outstrip those of Microsoft DOS. It was all but a companywide policy to kill DR-DOS using every possible means Vobis was the largest computer manufacturer in Germany all of Europe for that matter and at the beginning of 1991, 100 percent of the computers it sold were being shipped with DR-DOS. The edict had been handed down from Gates through the ranks: We want DR-DOS not to exist in this account. They had even set a date for her to meet the goal that the company be selling "no DR-DOS" but all Microsoft DOS and at least 50 percent Windows.]
The victory over DR-DOS did not rest on a quality advantage.[Footnote 81: Sheremata, Barriers to Innovation, at 942. At the time DR-DOS 5.0 received much critical acclaim as the superior product. However 1 month after DRI introduced DR-DOS 5.0, Microsoft preannounced a similar set of features for MS-DOS. Although Microsoft did not ship these features until over 1 year later, by 1993 market share for DR-DOS had fallen to 3%. MS-DOS share rose to 79%.
However, MS-DOS technology was based on CP/M which was an earlier version of DR-DOS. This lends credence to reports that DR-DOS was the product with superior quality. Apparently, Microsoft successfully applied its monopoly power to forestall competitive innovation.]
Rather, Microsoft imposed contract conditions on suppliers that foreclosed and deterred competition relying on now familiar tactics like withdrawing support "CEO Lieven complained that Microsoft had threatened to cut off technical support and access to information if Vobis continued to sell DRDOS."[Footnote 82:Rohm, pp. 69, 70]
The early use of contracts to secure the operating system monopoly against its rival, DRDOS, is central to Microsoft's dominance in the 1990s.[Footnote 83: ROHM, at 41. By 1991 account managers would read the terms of the licensing policy in their OEM manuals in brief form. The new licensing terms had started in the Far East, when low-cost clone vendors were happy to increase their slim profit margins by using a cheaper but better version of DOS--from DRI. Microsoft had implemented what eventually became known as "per processor" licenses, which effectively locked computer makers into contracts that required them to pay for the Microsoft operating system on every computer]
At the same time Microsoft was leveraging DR-DOS out of the market, it was leveraging competing desktop applications out of the market.[Footnote 84: Id. at 71, 77, 78. Gates, Lieven, Huels, and Reichel now discussed, among other things, an agreement "to get DRI/Novell out of Vobis," a strategic partnership between the two companies, and a commitment that Vobis would agree to sell "no Novell NetWare Lite" but instead would contract for 25,000 copies of Windows for Workgroups--a new product for Microsoft in the market for computer networks in which it had no presence. . . . Among the e-mail messages not produced to the feds from the computers of Microsoft Germany was one that Bernard Vergnes sent to a number of other Microsoft executives on September 7, 1992. Along with documenting the Vobis deal, it showed Microsoft's intent to use its DOS contracts to leverage computer makers into buying Microsoft applications software in place of that from Lotus and others. . . . In April 1991, Ballmer and Lieven had met in Nice. Ballmer had discussed other "inducements," as Lieven would testify, involving bundling Microsoft applications software with an operating system deal. A Microsoft Word/Excel combination was suggested as part of the DOS/Windows deal. . . . After noting the success of Gates' meeting with Lieven, and the strong market presence of Vobis--number one in market share, over IBM--the memo said: Lieven . . . is willing to no longer offer DRI-DOS or Network Lied [sic] . . . As you know, Lotus and Borland have been aggressively approaching our OEMs, and Vobis is no exception.]
As with the browser, these earlier cases of leveraging involved more than just shutting down distribution channels. The full range of technical and economic weapons was used to drive competing software from the market and to undermine its attractiveness to consumers. Microsoft leveraged the operating system by creating incompatibilities. From the outset, the process of building incompatibilities was driven by preservation of the monopoly on the operating system. "
51 • older Windows software (by Dave Postles on 2023-05-11 17:35:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I run the following on one of my machines using Wine:
Minitab 14;
MapInfo 4;
GenMapUK2;
without any problem.
52 • @49 50 (by lincoln) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-11 17:35:22 GMT from Netherlands)
"Nothing that a virtual machine can't solve. "
Why should virtual machines solve what a better OS does without "solving"? VMs always cost performance, time, and knowledge. My mom doesn't even know what that is, as well as 99% of "human beings."
"Do the websites I visit stop working because I'm not using the latest versions of Firefox and Google Chrome? Am I missing something essential for my life contained in these latest updates?"
The websites won't stop working, but you risk downloading malware. Ask the FBI, NSA... or those who know and Co. how it works. (your government, your provider)
"Should the workload be the same to update an entire operating system image atomically instead of updating only specific system libraries? Which one is more likely to be up to date?"
There is no difference except who makes it and how much it cares, but even if not updated, the immutable system is always more secure than the classic. Ask the Qubes (developed by the top hackers) developers.
"However, I have seen 100% of the machines running Linux in specific classes."
Maybe in the third world. We not only have the better for free, but depending on how one counts, we even get paid to use the better, and everybody is happy.
No school should be allowed to exist if they can't afford MS Office, Adobe, Autodesk and Co., which every professional uses. If the student doesn't have knowledge of those products, it won't get a job ever, and the point of the school is to teach people how to use what companies use so they become usable for the company's profit.
"...the lack of freedom to install/remove/update system libraries..."
You are not supposed to touch any library ever, but install the software you need and do the work you are supposed to do. You are not paid to fiddle with OS, but to do your job.
"Your entire immutable system can be compromised even after a reboot... your system depends on TPM... TPM has security flaws..."
Of course, TPM has security flows and can be compromised, and of course, an immutable system won't solve all of the security problems, but it will make it harder to compromise the system, and TPM2 or TPM is still better than no TPM at all.
Not even the developers of immutable systems claimed such a thing.
OpenBSD is a bit more secure than Linux, and that's nothing new, but it's also nothing new that nobody wants it. If it were any good, Alibaba, Amazon, Facebook, Google, IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, etc. would use it instead of Linux, but they don't because...
Less people use it, less people care to develop exploits.
And my neighbor? Latest after a year, it'll rather buy a new PC than use Linux. BSD? Doesn't even have as much SW choice as Linux, except if someone is a compile freak.
And when my neighbor's friend sends him a new .exe that doesn't work? It won't take long until it dumps anything that doesn't install .exe on double-click--ideology here or there.
All this is just to say that everybody is absolutely happy with Windows. (everybody minus Mac users and minus 1%)
Microsoft is writing a lot of B'sh*t and usually loses in court if they ever even try.
What they write, nobody takes seriously—at least not in Europe or if they are HW manufacturers.
P.S.The biggest problem in the Linux world is that it's chaos for anarchists.
No big company which could say immutable-sytemd-gnome shell-no customization except changing the wallpaper-if it's not good for you, go and enjoy BSD.
Users should learn how to use; not how to fiddle. Time is money, and time and money are precious. I'm not paying my people to trash my money.
53 • Immutable OS (by Justin on 2023-05-12 15:35:33 GMT from United States)
I took immutable OS to mean that the root directory has overlayfs. I do that already and really like it. I can install additional programs temporarily or mess with configurations. When I reboot, I'm back to a clean system. It has downsides like I need to save files to USB, but I really only use the it for web browsing or temporary experiments. To update, I boot without overlayfs, run the update commands, reboot once more in case updates need to write something, and that's it. It's basically like running with a live CD except its on the hard drive and I can customize it.
54 • @51 • older Win-software (by Dave Postles from United Kingdom) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-12 17:13:15 GMT from Netherlands)
Please don't get me wrong—I am not against Linux or a Windows "fan," but less effort = better.
I got some games running on Linux under Wine, but... it doesn't start properly, or it works fine with Wine version X but not with Wine version Y, or it doesn't work at all...
I'm not some 50-year-old youngster having fun getting something to work. Why spend a day if I can get it done in 10 minutes?
To be honest, I even know of a game that runs better on Linux under Wine than on Windows, where it crashes all the time, but that's not the normal case. 99% of the 90's stuff runs absolutely fantastic from Windows 95 to Windows 11.
What I can't stand are only those "classic Linux apostols" who are unable to learn and keep insisting on "no Windows; it's a sh*t if it isn't like Windows."
No matter what we talk about—systemd, Gnome Shell, immutable Linux, etc.—it's always the same (completely irrelevant bunch of freaks) 1% of 1% who lost every touch with reality, who are against every progress, and who are against anything that could make Linux relevant.
Don't like it? Don't use it, and shut up.
When I buy some junk like Budweiser beer, I take a sip and throw it away, but I'm not going to some forums or whatever and trying to educate people on how the beer should taste. To each his own.
But you see what's been going on here for decades. "Bottles" (unfortunately not Wine bottles) preaching their beliefs; some @49 "knows" about the "update problem" with immutable Linux, while:
"Netflix: Netflix uses immutable operating systems for their cloud-based infrastructure, to easily roll out updates and make changes without affecting the underlying systems."
:( :( :(
If Linux is ever to become a serious contender, it'll first take a huge mindset change in its community.
55 • @51 • Linux software (by Dave Postles from United Kingdom) (by Cubehead on 2023-05-12 17:37:57 GMT from Netherlands)
P.S.
A couple of years ago, I found a "stupid," ready to try Linux, but it was "either Astro or no go."
Linux Mint and Astro worked fine for a couple of months until the upgrade came. Astro stopped working. It took another couple of months until it finally worked again.
The only problem is that the user didn't care for the "better OS" religion. The same application worked perfectly fine on Windows without an (almost) one-year break.
Sorry, the exact details on versions I don't remember, but the point stays: a potential new Linux user is gone.
56 • securities (by hackopath on 2023-05-12 23:33:00 GMT from Germany)
for security claims, it looks like devs are choosing one main method for each distro:
* full disk encryption
* immutability
* VMs
* app containers
* minimalist attack surface
* firewall
* systemd-free
But this approach means that they miss some potential vulnerabilities. e.g., many distros enable ssh remote login by default - even OpenBSD. Some enable wifi by default and override BIOS settings. Some allow auto wifi connection, which is vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks - even Qubes OS. Some contain systemd, which repeatedly tries to make internet connections. So the definitive security solution hasn't been found yet.
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