 DistroWatch Weekly |
| Tip Jar |
If you've enjoyed this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly, please consider sending us a tip.
(Tips this week: 1, value: US$9.46) |
|
|
|
 bc1qxes3k2wq3uqzr074tkwwjmwfe63z70gwzfu4lx  lnurl1dp68gurn8ghj7ampd3kx2ar0veekzar0wd5xjtnrdakj7tnhv4kxctttdehhwm30d3h82unvwqhhxarpw3jkc7tzw4ex6cfexyfua2nr  86fA3qPTeQtNb2k1vLwEQaAp3XxkvvvXt69gSG5LGunXXikK9koPWZaRQgfFPBPWhMgXjPjccy9LA9xRFchPWQAnPvxh5Le paypal.me/distrowatchweekly • patreon.com/distrowatch |
|
| Extended Lifecycle Support by TuxCare |
|
|
| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Torrents (by marcos pereira de sousa on 2021-11-22 01:14:19 GMT from Brazil)
C'mon you devels, distro people!
C'mon make torrents for your releases!
Here we can find your torrents, download your iso's, etc and contribute seeding them!
A little while is better than nothing!
Yes I do prefer to download everything this way...
Cheers
2 • Lirix (by lirical bugs on 2021-11-22 01:39:27 GMT from France)
Lirix: good name for a distro, lightweight, Arch, with MaXX Interactive Desktop.
looks interesting; would like to have tried it, but couldn't navigate past the pre-teen talk. what is it with these gaming dudes?
3 • Torrents (by Bob on 2021-11-22 01:58:17 GMT from United States)
At least you guys tried to be a one-stop Linux shopping experience.
-- There's always Linux Tracker.
4 • Alma vs Rocky (by Angel on 2021-11-22 02:18:33 GMT from Philippines)
That Reddit thread got into bare-knuckles quickly. Rocky came to challenge and may have gotten a bit bruised in the exchange. Waiting for Rocky II.
5 • Torrents (by Andy Prough on 2021-11-22 03:09:00 GMT from United States)
>"Unfortunately, in recent months our torrent tracker has been absolutely flooded with requests and it seems like some people are trying to perform a denial-of-service attack against our torrent tracker."
Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and Tim Cook laughing maniacally in the background, high-fiving each other as they count their billions. The scheme to keep GNU/Linux from dominating the desktop market continues apace as it enters its third decade...
6 • Custom login scripts (by ivan on 2021-11-22 04:55:32 GMT from Italy)
I'm working on an Application Manager (AM) that uses both scripts at the user's login or while the user launches the program. It uses only standalone programs and AppImages, and actually I'm porting some scripts from another project I've completed (AppMan) for the x86_64 architecture. These scripts are needed to update the program always to the latest version. Among these login scripts there are two that are using the appimageupdate tool. They stop working when the update is complete.
PS: I'm looking for cooperators to compile new scripts and improve the number of programs, AM is completelly wrote in shell, so the scripts can be compiled for all the other architectures. I hope you enjoy this project.
7 • GhostBSD meeting (by gelu on 2021-11-22 06:48:11 GMT from Moldova)
Will GhostBSD meeting be open to everyone ?
as a presentation of the state of the project
or it will be open only to developers ?
8 • Fedora and choices (by Hank on 2021-11-22 10:34:14 GMT from Germany)
Init, NO CHOICE
Desktops delivered 1
Installing non Free software is a choice on the majority of distros.
Most modern devices will not even boot without non free binary blobs or firmware.
and I do not mean just BIOS...
9 • Custom logins (by James on 2021-11-22 12:02:04 GMT from United States)
I do not run any custom login scripts:
I have no idea how to write a script, or enable it, so I do not run one.
10 • Fedora (by Sam on 2021-11-22 14:01:29 GMT from United States)
Fedora has really been putting out solid releases lately. My Linux laptop, normally a device that sees a lot of distro hopping, hasn't really hopped in a while -- Fedora 33, then 34, now 35. Just solid work by the Fedora team (despite any jokes about the distro from Linus "I don't pay attention when Pop_OS! tells me I'm going to hose my system" Sebastian.
11 • Fedora (by krell on 2021-11-22 15:48:48 GMT from Tajikistan)
I love Fedora Mate spin or KDE could never get used to gnome
Am on Fedora 34 and it is rock solid though it is funny how Wine o(installing microsoft office)can work well in one version
of a distrp(Fedora 33) but then fail to work in Fedora 34. Maybe it's time to give Fedora 35 a try.
12 • antiX 21 (by Dave on 2021-11-22 16:15:15 GMT from United States)
I’m hoping Distrowatch will review the new version of antiX in an upcoming issue. I’m thinking of putting it on an old 32-bit single-core laptop. When I’ve tried it in the past via live usb, it’s been almost shockingly fast.
13 • once bitten.. (by Tad Strange on 2021-11-22 18:39:01 GMT from Canada)
I've setup the KDE version of Fedora in a VM. It's certainly an interesting departure from my usual Debian-based preferences.
I can't bring myself to trust it for daily use, however. Too many bad memories of Fedora pushing the envelope a bit too far, delivering an alpha-grade technology demo, to put it politely.
once bitten, as they say
14 • Elevation (from last week) (by Kyle on 2021-11-22 23:42:02 GMT from United States)
@13 I recall that you and another person had posted in last week's comments about finding a UAC-like privilege elevation prompt that could cache your credentials. After a bit of tinkering, I was able to get KDE's solution, kdesu, to work on my personal system, though not in time to reply to you last week.
By default, kdesu uses the `su` command to launch programs as root, and therefore requires knowledge of root's password. To configure the prompt to ask for your password instead, you can edit the configuration file located at "~/.config/kdesurc" to specify the command `sudo`. Some distributions (such as Ubuntu) may arrive pre-configured this way, though that may not hold true in recent versions due to the technical limitations that I will link below.
Add the following two lines to your "~/.config/kdesurc":
[super-user-command]
super-user-command=sudo
I have been experimenting with OpenDoas lately, and it seems like the `doas` command also works in this role. Of course, ensure that whichever backend you choose has been configured to allow you to run programs as root.
The kdesu developers have noted some techincal considerations with commands other than `su` which you may want to study (if this is being used in an environment where strict, detailed security policies are needed):
https://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kdesu#Technical_considerations
With all that out of the way, you can now run a program through kdesu by adding this to the beginning of the command: `kdesu -c `. (I like to create special "Root Mode" desktop files for programs that I run frequently with this method, where the command field already includes this prefix.) The first time you run kdesu in a session, it will ask for your password, and offer a checkbox to remember your password, which is disabled by default. Select that option, then submit your password. Future invocations of kdesu shouldn't prompt for a password for the rest of the session. (The kdesu daemon, `kdesud`, is now running in the background to keep your password cached.)
I have noticed that some systems don't play nearly as nicely with the "remember password" option as I would like for them to, and kdesu will fail to open any application after submitting your password with this option enabled. I have not yet been able to identify the configuration difference that causes this issue. In the meantime, you can run `kdesu -s` to stop the daemon, forcing it to ask for your password again next time.
15 • #13 (by Simon on 2021-11-23 02:00:10 GMT from New Zealand)
It doesn't really matter how solid and trustworthy it appears to be, because it's only supported for a short while, after which you're forced to waste time upgrading, or you're stuck with increasingly insecure unsupported software. Fedora's release cycle is too short for it to be useful to me: it's one of the many distros that I don't even bother to test, because it offers no long term support. If I wanted a Red Hat flavoured distro I'd use Red Hat itself, or one of the community recompilations: to me those are basically Fedora, only grown up into versions that are actually useful. Fedora is Red Hat's little fashion-conscious teen version, endlessly "finding itself". I prefer grown up operating systems that know what they are.
16 • @15 (by Adam Drake on 2021-11-23 02:12:36 GMT from United States)
Waste time upgrading? That’s most of the fun. For some of us, working on PCs is much more entertaining than actually using them. I use Debian Testing BTW.
17 • Tools... (by Friar Tux on 2021-11-23 02:30:06 GMT from Canada)
@16 (Adam) For others, our computers are tools to get stuff done - banking, bill paying, communicating with kith and kin, music, photo albums, writing, etc.. I don't bother with any short term distros, either. I use a long term distro (5 years or more (Linux Mint, at present)). I think upgrading every five years is also good for clearing out leftover bits of junk files that tend to accumulate over time - hence I don't use a rolling releases, either. Besides all the rolling releases I've tried break after every second or third update/upgrade.
I DO have a second laptop that is used for monkeying about with different distros. That way I can still have the entertaining fun, as you call it. And yes, it is fun.
18 • nvidia and Fedora (by Brian on 2021-11-23 08:44:04 GMT from Canada)
" In hindsight, I would have liked to install the NVIDIA drivers through GNOME's Software GUI, but I used the command line before I thought to use the GUI. "
You probably saved yourself some aggravation to be honest. After a purge of everything nvidia, disabling RPM Fusion's nvidia repo, and installing Negativo17's version I'm once again up and running. I've never had success with RMP fusion's version - not once. Negativo17 works and keeps working on every install. Other that that, I agree with the review.
19 • @14, Elevation, passwords (by Angel on 2021-11-23 10:01:06 GMT from Hong Kong)
Somewhat the same result can be obtained by editing the /etc/sudoers file, or depending on distro, in /etc/sudoers.d, as shown here: tinyurl.com/4sc2xbt5
My settings: Defaults env_reset,timestamp_timeout=-2 and Defaults !tty_tickets
This allows me to enter my password in terminal once per session. Rather than create.desktop files, I edit the menu with sudo as prefix for any GUI apps that run with elevated privileges. Example: sudo synaptic. sudo partitionmanager. This doesn't help with apps that open as normal user but require passwords every time one installs something. For those one has to edit configuration files, which is more "guruish" than I want to get.
I thought of replying to last weeks post, but decided not to after reading this: "they talk to you like you are a linux guru and i don't understand anything they say.. i give up" Shows me he's looking for a point-and-click solution, and I've been there too many times over the years. Not that I blame him. Even Microsoft had a lot of push-back with their UAC, and had to backtrack to make it more of an "are you sure" reminder. If there is ever going to be a Linux-desktop for the masses to rival the big boys, it will have to be as simple to use. Maybe when someone figures out a way to make lots of money from it. But then, a lot of us would probably be looking for something else to use.
20 • Fedora 35 Okay for Newbies (by Matt E on 2021-11-23 11:40:30 GMT from United States)
With Fedora 35, I had to do "dnf provides" to add an extra gtk file for Veracrypt. Ubuntu didn't need this. Yes, a newbie most likely will not be installing Veracrypt. Some articles say Fedora is for experiences users (implying not for newbies). I disagree, but if there was a newbie distro. contest, Ubuntu would win over Fedora. Overall, Fedora is shinier and more impressive.
21 • @17 (by Adam Drake on 2021-11-23 13:16:35 GMT from United States)
I understand and agree completely. We use Red Hat for our servers and docker containers at work. My point was that there is a valid reason for bleeding edge distros like Fedora to exist.
On a side note, I joined the Licking County Computer Society over the weekend and was delighted to learn that they are working with local senior citizens to learn Linux (Mint mostly) on a regular basis.
22 • Fedora 35.. (by Az4x4 on 2021-11-23 14:52:37 GMT from United States)
Seems like forever since I last gave Fedora a go. But with this weeks highlight article extolling this new release I figured I'd take another look. ..Maybe, if Fedora came with a more traditional, more truly user friendly DE than the 'space cadet' piece of work we find in today's GNOME it might be worth using. As it is though it's a complete waste of time unless someone's a glutton for punishment. Fedora 35 with the new GNOME DE will punish the typical desktop user in every way possible before they finally throw up their hands in exasperation and pull the plug - which belatedly I ended up doing this past afternoon..
23 • Fedora 35 and Gnome 41 (by Tim Doran on 2021-11-23 15:48:45 GMT from United States)
Fedora has been my preferred distro for several years now with Ubuntu coming in second. Right now I'm running Ubuntu 20.04 on my work laptop and Fedora 35 on two laptops for personal use. The main reason I'm running Ubuntu on the work laptop is I need to spend zero time with Ubuntu getting the Nvidia card to work. Fedora requires a bit more effort.
Fedora 35's implementation of Gnome 41 is excellent. I've used everything from Awesome WM through KDE over the years, but have found that Gnome suits my workflow best, usually only after installing a few dozen extensions. With Gnome 41 I have had to install far fewer extensions to get it working as I like than with any other release. I'm running Gnome on Ubuntu as well. I have 3 dozen extensions installed on Ubuntu's Gnome. Some of those were installed mostly out of curiosity. With Gnome 41, I only have about a dozen. I've felt much less interest in experimenting with Gnome 41's configuration because it just seems to be the most polished and useful out of the box compared to previous releases.
Well done, Fedora!
24 • Fedora 35 (by Nico on 2021-11-23 15:59:39 GMT from United States)
@22 (Az4x4)
"Maybe, if Fedora came with a more traditional, more truly user friendly DE than the 'space cadet' piece of work we find in today's GNOME it might be worth using. As it is though it's a complete waste of time unless someone's a glutton for punishment. Fedora 35 with the new GNOME DE will punish the typical desktop user in every way possible before they finally throw up their hands in exasperation and pull the plug - which belatedly I ended up doing this past afternoon.."
Always nice to read some ***, but could you also elaborate? What exactly is your problem?
What you are saying here is basically: "What a terrible construct! I just want to leave, but I'm stuck inside. How do I come out? Heeelp ..." Can you see the issue?
25 • Fedora (by Nico on 2021-11-23 16:55:06 GMT from United States)
With OS's is just like with 'motor vehicles' - there is no such thing like 'one fits all'. One can't build a sports car, suitable for a family of 6, and being usable as a bus for 50, that'll transport gasoline. One needs to decide ...
Linux is a bad desktop OS, because it has a server concept. Having a system bound to some repositories is a great thing for a server, but a complete fail on the desktop. And then the software management, which just can't work, because of that repository misconception. Snaps and Flatpak were born out of desperation ...
Diversity killed the Linux.
Too many WM's and DE's, old and new stuff, all mixed up together, GTK & QT available through the same repository ... this just can't work. Linux (as a desktop) needs an urgent cleanup, or it'll always stay irrelevant.
Fedora is the best what one can get in Linux world. It makes the best possible compromise. Most people don't care for the OS - they care for their applications. On Ubuntu, one gets stuck 'forever' on some old versions, on rolling, one is a 'beta tester' for the developers. In Fedora, with their 1-year update cycles, one gets fresh software versions, but one doesn't need to upgrade 'all the time'. Mac and Windows also have annual cycles. For a good reason. And Fedora is beautiful, and it has great interface(s) - modern or classic, it's just one click (on a cogwheel on log-in screen) away. Currently, the best Linux system for a laptop or a desktop computer.
26 • Startup script (by Cheker on 2021-11-23 19:10:51 GMT from Portugal)
I run a simple script that plays a tune on system startup, my distro doesn't have that natively. An old habit that I brought with me from Redmond.
27 • @24 "..could you also elaborate? What exactly is your problem?" (by Az4x4 on 2021-11-23 20:47:33 GMT from United States)
Torvalds explained there is a "*huge* difference between being easy to use," and "*only* being easy to use. .."Being easy to use" means there isn't a steep learning curve involved. That's *good*. On the other hand "*only* being easy to use" is bad. It means that once the initial learning curve has been mastered, maybe you know the program in the form it presents itself, but you discover you can't actually do what you WANT to with it, and that's *bad*. It's a lot worse than being difficult to use to begin with. "Gnome people seem to think that once you've 'got into it,' you'd never want to do anything more. Not true."
A senior GNOME developer commented, "GNOME offers a lot of customization options, but some of them require (that) you..get extra applications to easily get to ... there are many such add-ons available, and of course a lot of things a power user can tweak using gconf-editor.."
Torvalds angrily responded, "Why the hell do you have to point to bogus programs that don't actually do what I want?" Torvalds continued, "I *know* what I want. I *know* gnome doesn't support it. How do I know? I've used it. I looked at the code. I talked to the original author of the code. The author, and the code, all agree: gnome doesn't do what I want."
"I want something very simple: (for example) I want to configure my mouse button window events. That doesn't sound so bad, does it? Everybody else can do it, Gnome does not. My laptop has a two-button mouse, which means that I want the right button to do something more useful than show me the menu that I never use."
Torvalds went on to write the code to fix this, then "sent the patches off to add these capabilities" to GNOME because he believes "gnome people always make *excuses*. "It took me a few hours to actually do the patches," he said. "It wasn't that hard.."
Torvalds (along with users who see things in a similar light) and the GNOME project don't share the same design goals. Torvalds wants to increase users' access to the internal workings of the system, giving them maximum power over their systems. GNOME on the other hand aims to increase the system's usability by severely limiting or outright denying access to system internals from the GUI.
In general GNOME policy is, "..no GUI options before thinking." This policy came into effect beginning with GNOME 2.x during UI design usability discussions, as a result of seeing GNOME 2.x's config menu's filled with options which where there because of bugs, missing features and a heterogeneous deployment environment that GNOME had been built upon. GNOME developers see part of why this problem has grown to become such an issue for people who don't closely follow GNOME is that, "..maybe we in GNOME have failed to package and present the power user tools actually available in a good way." But that more of an excuse instead of an answer to Torvalds' concern about system control being easily available to users.
As Torvalds explains, "This is why you want graphical tools, to configure stuff - even for 'experts.' Because I'm an expert Unix user..doesn't mean that I'm expert in some Gnome internal configuration issues. I know what I want, but that doesn't mean that I know how Gnome does (what I want it to do)."
Christopher Blizzard, a Red Hat software developer, said, "In GNOME I think we've done a very good, and 'somewhat painful job', of creating something that's very simple and very usable for someone who sits down in front of their machine. I say 'painful' because we've had to remove a lot of things that people were very used to in order to get a base experience that's pretty good. But the thing that I think Linus is stumbling over is that canyon. How does he figure out how to get what he needs, which does exist in GNOME, without having to learn everything there is to know about GNOME?
"I think that what GNOME has done is important," added Blizzard. "You have to have a very simple base to start with ..Building a system that's simple and friendly and works well is where we start. But if we're ever going to grow beyond our 'small community' we need to figure out how to grow with our users in an unobtrusive manner. I don't think that any of us have figured out how to do that, and we're paying the price for it."
The question comes down to whether desktop Linux users would rather have a highly simplified universal interface, toned down to the point of effectively being neutered, like GNOME, which makes customizing the system to suit individual needs painfully difficult? Or are power-user friendly DEs such as KDE, Mate', Cinnamon and Xfce, with their massive followings and wide spread appeal on a variety of levels, the more preferred choice?
We'll each make that decision for ourselves, but until Gnome's developers learn to accommodate users' needs for greatly increased control within the context of today's Gnome interface, they'll never be anything other than the self-declared "small community" they see themselves as being.
28 • RE: 27 and the Gnome way (by the Ghost of Christmas Past on 2021-11-23 22:30:51 GMT from United States)
In 2005 Patrick Volkerding gave Gnome the shove from Slackware, and it's astonishing how little has changed in the intervening 16 years. The Gnome people still act in insular, self-congratulatory and self-defeating ways. In a ZDNet article announcing that Slackware is dumping Gnome, Gnome leader Jeff Waugh says this:
"This is how open source is supposed to work..."
https://www.zdnet.com/article/slackware-ditches-gnome-service/
This is not how open source is supposed to work. The Gnome project -- dominated by IBM/Red Hat -- has been tuning out users for twenty years; it's time for the open source community to recognize and adapt to that truth.
System76 has moved on, the Solus team has moved on, the LXQt guy has moved on... why can't everyone else?
29 • Gnome and extensions (by Hoos on 2021-11-24 06:17:22 GMT from Singapore)
I think pure keyboard shortcut users will probably be more comfortable with a vanilla Gnome setup.
For mouse users like me though, I think many users will prefer having either dash to dock or dash to panel extension working. So the months after Gnome 40's release (on the newer rolling distros) broke dash to dock, while I was waiting for the said extension to be updated in time for when Ubuntu's new release with Gnome 40 came out, was a bit annoying. Yes, some temporary adaptation using other working extensions made things a little less annoying, but even so.
And others can't do without at least a few other extensions to ease their workflow.
For now, I'm fine with Gnome, but I'm very aware that for myself, it's a DE that is so very dependent on certain third party extensions to keep me comfortable in my workflow - for things that one takes for granted in other DEs.
So my continued use of Gnome depends on Gnome not breaking extensions with a new release, and/or on the extensions' developers continuing to maintain their extensions and patiently rejigging it whenever changes to Gnome break it. It's a tenuous relationship that might just end at any time. I don't have the same uncertainty using XFCE or Plasma.
30 • Gnome (by Nico on 2021-11-24 09:51:33 GMT from United States)
@27 (Az4x4)
Hold on! Please go back to @22, then to @24, then @27, and then back to @24.
1. You wrote a wall of text, but you still didn't answer my question, about what exactly is YOUR issue. You did say what Mr. Torvalds thinks (or was thinking at the time), but he is not you. Does that mean, that you can't make your own opinion, and you need someone to tell you what you should think?
2. Define "Being easy to use and a steep learning curve involved" in usage of Gnome, for somebody who is able to use Mate, Xfce ...
Screenshot of Xfce / Mate / Gnome Classic, one per row, and of Gnome 41:
https://imgur.com/sFzf2ly
https://imgur.com/EJe1MXE
Gnome Classic is definitely not a "'space cadet' piece of work", but it definitely looks much better and less cluttered, which also makes it much more pleasant to use, and there's exactly zero learning curve involved.
3. On "power-users" ...
"Or are power-user friendly DEs such as KDE, Mate', Cinnamon and Xfce, with their massive followings and wide spread appeal on a variety of levels, the more preferred choice?"
No, they are not, and the reason why, is very simple.
There are some 1.5 billion computers out there, and probably at least twice that many smartphones. Some people have computer at all, some have more than one ... let's assume that we have 1.5 billion computer users. How many of those are "power-users"?
Everybody needs and uses one ... doctor or professor, student or pupil, car mechanic or a cleaning person. One can safely assume, that the world consists of computer-incompetent people.
Are you now seriously suggesting, that one should make operating systems to suit the needs of 0.01 % of "power-users", instead of concentrating on the usability for "normal-users"?
The "power-users" are either IT-professionals or nerds, and they will always find a way to change something somehow, but the waste majority of "normal-users" shouldn't be bothered and be in need to fiddle with things they don't know how to do, nor they care for. They just want to use the thing, do their thing, and turn it off.
Just like with cars. Most people just drive one, and very few are "power-drivers". Imagine the car industry, if they would produce the cars that only rally or truck drivers, or even more precise, that only the car mechanics would be able to drive -- because that's exactly the case when comparing Mate, Xfce ... against Gnome -- all either broken or unfinished, mostly both. Are you trying to bring them all, a decade or two back in time?
31 • Fedora 35 Gnome (by RaySue on 2021-11-24 12:09:29 GMT from United States)
I'm running a flawlessly tweaked Gnome desktop on Fedora 35 right now -- all the extensions work perfectly and the workflow is intuitive and smooth as silk. So, I'm really getting a kick out of some of these comments.
32 • Desktop Enviro (by Marti on 2021-11-24 13:14:22 GMT from United States)
It was 1997 and a friend help me install Red Hat 4.something.....with blackbox WM. I miss that. Forward to Dec 2007 and brown Ubuntu 7.10.....
I left "formal" Ubuntu because of Unity, but stayed with Ubuntu derivatives/spins. I am still not a sys admin, but I might make the jump to Debian+non-free and LXDE.
I'm sure GNOME is coded by smart people, but I don't want my desktop to look like a smartphone, which I do not own.
Linux gives options. Please let's not destroy ourselves. Happy Thanksgiving.
33 • @16 (by Simon on 2021-11-24 20:56:08 GMT from New Zealand)
Yes, I get that. I think that's the case for most of the developers of desktop Linux distros these days: because they love endlessly installing and tinkering with their operating systems, they imagine their users the same way, and don't prioritise users who actually want to use their desktops to get stuff done. Fortunately, Debian stable, Red Hat (and its clones), Ubuntu LTS (and its many derivatives) and a handful of others cater to users who aren't just Linux hobbyists and who want to stay focused on their work for as long as possible without being distracted by the demands of the OS.
34 • Torrent seeding (by pengxuin on 2021-11-24 23:50:17 GMT from New Zealand)
I guess if some developers are not providing a link to a torrent seed, it is conceivable that they are using the direct download method as a rough guide for the number of users / trials of their linux vision.
35 • Gnome @30 (by OneHue on 2021-11-25 08:05:47 GMT from Mali)
The problem with gnome 3 is that it is harder to say what is bad, because it is mostly bad in every way. The only one thing that is good, is the fact there is no tearing at all.
I started using linux with Red Hat 7. I was a student, I saved money little by little, bought it and installed it on a HP Vectra desktop. I contributed to other free softwares by fixing help manuals, translati g them from english to french, submitting bugs. But nowadays, I barely use linux. Why ? Because, most distributions lack a end user vision (except Mint and MX).
Let come back to gnome. It is perfect on a 1920×1080 screen and plenty fast on a ssd powered computer ; but it is unusable on a 1366x768 screen and slow on a HDD powered computer. It is so simple that it is useless. People talked, shouted, but nothing change. We went from a good desktop environment (Gnome 2) to a lab experiment (Gnome 3). Today things are vertical, tomorrow they are horizontal. I can go other and other.
In short, linux distros are not any more the solid desktop operating systems you use when you are doing serious things. In the past, people were saying "Windows for office work, Mac for multimedia work, and Linux for science". Now it is Linux for server side programing. Narrowing its scope to a Unix replacement.
I hope, really hope, that things will be better.
36 • Gnome (by eganonoa on 2021-11-25 12:10:44 GMT from Netherlands)
@Az4x4 that was an extremely useful set of quotes there. Probably the most informative short read on the subject i have read. @Nico I feel you are over-egging the DE wars here.
On my end, Gnome is at once endlessly frustrating and utterly necessary, and it is for the very reasons of its "over"-simplicity. It is hands-down, the easiest DE to rollout across a wide team of people, some who know what they are doing, many who don't. There isn't a single other DE "online accounts" that makes Online Accounts integration so seamless (including Mac and Windows for whom it's only seamless if you use their cloud products). Only Macs and Chromebooks beat Gnome on the ability to give it to anyone and they can figure it out quickly (albeit a dock extension is necessary pre-Gnome 40).
But, the Gnome developers are very often horribly rude and angry about feedback. The release cycle is crazy, almost as if it is designed to deliberately break extensions. And there are some really strange decisions being made that have left some really important things in limbo, e.g.: (a) on office productivity you can either have a working and excellent but ugly Evolution maintained by one person; or you can have lovely-looking mail, calendar, contacts, and tasks apps that lack really basic and expected productivity features, like calendar sending or receiving/inputting calendar invites!); (b) (as discussed above) key advanced settings features are excluded, relegated to tweaks or endlessly-breaking extensions, or some really impossible to understand configuration frameworks). Ultimately, they are clearly spending too much time on looks and not enough on things like these. My hope is that with the looks pretty much looking great since Gnome 41 and performance less on an issue, we will finally see some more emphasis on these things. But I'm not holding my breath.
And yet still, I would never give anything else out to a wide team of people with different skills sets and knowledge. Everything else is too breakable or complex.
37 • Gnomish desktop (by Angel on 2021-11-25 12:27:19 GMT from Philippines)
Right after the debut of Windows 8, one of the big box stores held a demo allowing customers to play with the system and figure things out. There was a woman who tried for around half and hour and could not figure out how to shut it down. She was not alone. Even c|net felt the need to publish an article titles "How to, uh, turn Windows 8 off." Gnome is pretty close to being Linux's Windows 88. Simple and clean-looking? Yes. Easy to use? Hardly. I agree with @27 that "learn to accommodate users' needs for greatly increased control within the context of today's Gnome interface, they'll never be anything other than the self-declared "small community" they see themselves as being." What I don't agree with is direction. To be a mainline option, Linus Torvalds in not the one who needs pleasing. Torvalds is good enough to take care of any faults himself. What would be needed is to make it possible for that woman to shut the damn thing down without having to ask for help.
Say I'm a neophyte coming from that cursed thing from Redmond. I want my freedom, so I install (maybe with some help) Fedora. I log in, and I get a "colorful?" expanse and a black bar on top. What the hell are "Activities"? Some little icons on the right, like Windows 8's "charm bar" "Click." There! Power off. No! One more click. No! One more! Ah! Well, at least I can shut it down. In Windows the 'Windows" key gives me a menu. Click! No! I do have a dock at the bottom with a few apps. What's that thing with the square dots? Click! Wow! It IS Windows 8 without the live tiles!
There's nothing inherently wrong with Gnome, just like Windows 8. A third party start menu would fix Win 8, and you were of the races. I installed Fedora. First thing, I changed that garish (Sorry!) wallpaper, but I had to find pictures somewhere because none are provided. Then I wanted to get rid of that black bar on top. I installed "tweaks" and "extensions." Installed dash to panel and Plank. Plank is broken, so it's dash to dock and a transparent bar extension. Enable minimize on window tops. Some adjustments, and I have a desktop I can live with. Nice! To compare,
I install Manjaro Gnome. Comes with a muted wallpaper I can live with, and many alternative pictures, should I want. Tweaks and extensions already installed, dash to dock enabled. I install transparent bar, some adjustments, and done! Somebody up there loves me! Runs like a top! Guess which one I'll keep!
@30, Nico. While there are many kinds of cars, they all have steering wheels, pedals on the floor, a shifting mechanism, etc. Ergonomics! That's the kind of thing most people complain about in Gnome. "Where's the gas pedal?" I actually like Gnome, and use it, modified to my liking, along with KDE. I avoid the latest versions of Gnome because as the people at System 76 say, they keep breaking things.
38 • Gnome DE (by Nico on 2021-11-25 14:03:15 GMT from United States)
I'm reading DW for many years already, and occasionally I read comments. I noticed that it is often the same sort of people, and often even the same names, who are writing the same kind of things, about something that they obviously couldn't understand.
@37 (Angel)
"@30, Nico. While there are many kinds of cars, they all have steering wheels, pedals on the floor, a shifting mechanism, etc. Ergonomics!"
Gnome has its concept. It is different. If you can't use it without modifying it, it is you who is the problem, not the Gnome concept. Full-screen start menu and the huge icons? Like Macs, isn't it?
Just like with cars ... Gear shift lever for example:
https://cars.usnews.com/pics/size/776x517/images/Auto/izmo/353980/2013_toyota_tundra_2wd_truck_gearshift.jpg
https://cars.usnews.com/pics/size/776x517/images/Auto/izmo/i159613939/2020_dodge_grand_caravan_gearshift.jpg
https://bestride.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/mdx-shifter-acura-image.jpg
https://autopartskorea.ru/image/cache/catalog/I30(PD)/43711S0100RMW-1x0.jpg
https://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/197564_81_30209_e8pLaJxSc.jpg
MX-Linux is an example of bad ergonomics, despite Xfce, if you're looking for a bad ergonomics example on a Linux desktop. Comparing Gnome with Windows 8 makes little sense, as shutdown in Gnome is not harder than in any other DE. Click on the "battery-sound-network" (top right) opens the panel with settings ... shut-down options.
39 • @38 Gnome DE (by Angel on 2021-11-25 16:01:28 GMT from Philippines)
If you were going to show something different, you might have tried Tesla. Now that's a different concept. And yes, I find MX rather ugly and crude, but most of that can be changed with a few clicks. I don't use it, but many people here have no problem with it. Maybe the fact that you carp on it makes you the problem.
Apples and oranges. The shape or somewhat different position of controls is not the issue. The issue is whether they are reachable, usable and understandable for, or to different people. Example: I went to test-drive a small car. My wife is under 5 feet tall. From the driver's seat she was looking through the steering wheel. I asked if height adjustment is available. The answer: No! She could use a pillow, or the seat could be removed and shimmed, but why? Is the problem my wife, or the car's design/ "concept"? If the makers are happy to cater just to people over 5.3 or so or to those who don't mind sitting on a pillow, it's their privilege, I guess. But off to a different car we went.
I had a Mac just after the introduction of OS X. I liked the "concept of top panel and bottom dock. I still do. Not much configuring on Macs, but their initial presentation is usable. I still would like to change some things, but then again, I no longer use Macs. I don't use any DE just as it comes. All are modified to my liking. If they can't be configured, like Pantheon or Endless OS, I don't use them. Whether I am the problem or not is irrelevant. They will be on my computer and I will be using them. I will not sit on pillows to adapt to someone else's concept.
In any case, that Gnome in not configurable or not meant to be configured is pure BS. Gnome provides a tweak tool and an extensions app for that purpose. Take a look at Makulu Shift. Eight different looks, some with category or kickoff menus, available with one click. Cinnamon, on which I write this, is Gnome-based, and I can make Gnome look almost exactly like my Cinnamon desktop, but it would still be Gnome, whether you approve of it or not. So I'm the problem. I'm OK with that. And If Gnome just want to cater to a small group, that would be OK too.
40 • @39 (by Nico on 2021-11-25 17:07:28 GMT from United States)
No, I don't give a **** for MX and here you get it to the point: "but most of that can be changed with a few clicks". It can be, but that's the job of those who make it, because the "normals" can't do it on their own. One could also build the own distro, isn't it? It's all in the repos ... just download and combine. ;)
"The issue is whether they are reachable, usable and understandable for, or to different people."
Yes, they are, at least for those few over 80-year-olds, for which I installed it. But, they use the computer, they don't tweak anything.
Here lays your problem:
"All are modified to my liking. If they can't be configured, like Pantheon or Endless OS, I don't use them."
You are not supposed to modify your OS, but yourself -- to learn how it works, and to use it.
You are the wrong customer for Gnome. You need KDE.
41 • "Nico" sets Linux-dom a new standard for high-handed! (by nooneatall on 2021-11-25 22:44:12 GMT from United States)
> I'm reading DW for many years already, and occasionally I read comments. I noticed that it is often the same sort of people, and often even the same names, who are writing the same kind of things, about something that they obviously couldn't understand.
> Gnome has its concept. It is different. If you can't use it without modifying it, it is you who is the problem, not the Gnome concept.
And best of all, as if straight from GAWD itself:
> You are not supposed to modify your OS, but yourself -- to learn how it works, and to use it.
I'm glad to have at last been told.
42 • @40 Nico: (by dragonmouth on 2021-11-26 13:01:10 GMT from United States)
"> You are not supposed to modify your OS, but yourself -- to learn how it works, and to use it."
Spoken like real dyed-in-the-wool Windows Fanatic. "You WILL use any garbage that we give you and you WILL like it!"
Sorry, but I want to be able to configure my O/S to MY tastes, not to force myself to adapt to somebody else's vision of nirvana. That is why I use Linux, not Windows.
43 • Linux (by Nico on 2021-11-26 13:28:00 GMT from United States)
@41 (nooneatall)
The difference between the good and the bad OS (±DE) is, that after installing the good one, one start working. After installing the bad one, one MUST start reconfiguring and repairing.
@35 (OneHue)
"It is perfect on a 1920×1080 screen and plenty fast on a ssd powered computer ; but it is unusable on a 1366x768 screen and slow on a HDD powered computer."
Sure, it doesn't make much fun to work on a 1366x768 screen, because most modern websites and many applications are written in a 'small-screen hostile' way, but why 'unusable'?
https://imgur.com/a/5drs0BJ
https://imgur.com/a/P7aOzOj
As of HDD, HDD is not the same as HDD. There were some types with SSD cache, which helps a lot. But, why would anybody even want to use an HDD in 2021 (not talking about archiving, backup etc.)?
Brand-new SSDs are available for some $20 ~ 25 nowadays!
However, if it really has to be, that 20-year-old, 4200 rpm HDD, then one has to make some essential tweaks.
Using file indexing and BTRFS advanced file system (deduplication etc.) are using a lot of additional I/O, and with it, RAM usage and processor workload rise significantly ...
@42 (dragonmouth)
Well ... Windows, Mac and Chrome OS have some significant percentage of users. What do you think, why exactly?
Nobody is preventing you fiddling with your OS, but you and your needs are irrelevant for the development direction. You are not the measurement. As previously explained in @30.
Just as with that car example. Either you get used to that gear shift lever 'positioned wrong', or you get another product -- but, it is not bad because you can not handle it.
Number of Comments: 43
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
| | |
| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
|
| Archives |
| • Ussye 1118 (2025-04-21): Fedora 42, strange characters in Vim, Nitrux introduces new package tools, Fedora extends reproducibility efforts, PINE64 updates multiple devices running Debian |
| • Issue 1117 (2025-04-14): Shebang 25.0, EndeavourOS 2025.03.19, running applications from other distros on the desktop, Debian gets APT upgrade, Mint introduces OEM options for LMDE, postmarketOS packages GNOME 48 and COSMIC, Redox testing USB support |
| • Issue 1116 (2025-04-07): The Sense HAT, Android and mobile operating systems, FreeBSD improves on laptops, openSUSE publishes many new updates, Fedora appoints new Project Leader, UBports testing VoLTE |
| • Issue 1115 (2025-03-31): GrapheneOS 2025, the rise of portable package formats, MidnightBSD and openSUSE experiment with new package management features, Plank dock reborn, key infrastructure projects lose funding, postmarketOS to focus on reliability |
| • Issue 1114 (2025-03-24): Bazzite 41, checking which processes are writing to disk, Rocky unveils new Hardened branch, GNOME 48 released, generating images for the Raspberry Pi |
| • Issue 1113 (2025-03-17): MocaccinoOS 1.8.1, how to contribute to open source, Murena extends on-line installer, Garuda tests COSMIC edition, Ubuntu to replace coreutils with Rust alternatives, Chimera Linux drops RISC-V builds |
| • Issue 1112 (2025-03-10): Solus 4.7, distros which work with Secure Boot, UBports publishes bug fix, postmarketOS considers a new name, Debian running on Android |
| • Issue 1111 (2025-03-03): Orbitiny 0.01, the effect of Ubuntu Core Desktop, Gentoo offers disk images, elementary OS invites feature ideas, FreeBSD starts PinePhone Pro port, Mint warns of upcoming Firefox issue |
| • Issue 1110 (2025-02-24): iodeOS 6.0, learning to program, Arch retiring old repositories, openSUSE makes progress on reproducible builds, Fedora is getting more serious about open hardware, Tails changes its install instructions to offer better privacy, Murena's de-Googled tablet goes on sale |
| • Issue 1109 (2025-02-17): Rhino Linux 2025.1, MX Linux 23.5 with Xfce 4.20, replacing X.Org tools with Wayland tools, GhostBSD moving its base to FreeBSD -RELEASE, Redox stabilizes its ABI, UBports testing 24.04, Asahi changing its leadership, OBS in dispute with Fedora |
| • Issue 1108 (2025-02-10): Serpent OS 0.24.6, Aurora, sharing swap between distros, Peppermint tries Void base, GTK removinglegacy technologies, Red Hat plans more AI tools for Fedora, TrueNAS merges its editions |
| • Issue 1107 (2025-02-03): siduction 2024.1.0, timing tasks, Lomiri ported to postmarketOS, Alpine joins Open Collective, a new desktop for Linux called Orbitiny |
| • Issue 1106 (2025-01-27): Adelie Linux 1.0 Beta 6, Pop!_OS 24.04 Alpha 5, detecting whether a process is inside a virtual machine, drawing graphics to NetBSD terminal, Nix ported to FreeBSD, GhostBSD hosting desktop conference |
| • Issue 1105 (2025-01-20): CentOS 10 Stream, old Flatpak bundles in software centres, Haiku ports Iceweasel, Oracle shows off debugging tools, rsync vulnerability patched |
| • Issue 1104 (2025-01-13): DAT Linux 2.0, Silly things to do with a minimal computer, Budgie prepares Wayland only releases, SteamOS coming to third-party devices, Murena upgrades its base |
| • Issue 1103 (2025-01-06): elementary OS 8.0, filtering ads with Pi-hole, Debian testing its installer, Pop!_OS faces delays, Ubuntu Studio upgrades not working, Absolute discontinued |
| • Issue 1102 (2024-12-23): Best distros of 2024, changing a process name, Fedora to expand Btrfs support and releases Asahi Remix 41, openSUSE patches out security sandbox and donations from Bottles while ending support for Leap 15.5 |
| • Issue 1101 (2024-12-16): GhostBSD 24.10.1, sending attachments from the command line, openSUSE shows off GPU assignment tool, UBports publishes security update, Murena launches its first tablet, Xfce 4.20 released |
| • Issue 1100 (2024-12-09): Oreon 9.3, differences in speed, IPFire's new appliance, Fedora Asahi Remix gets new video drivers, openSUSE Leap Micro updated, Redox OS running Redox OS |
| • Issue 1099 (2024-12-02): AnduinOS 1.0.1, measuring RAM usage, SUSE continues rebranding efforts, UBports prepares for next major version, Murena offering non-NFC phone |
| • Issue 1098 (2024-11-25): Linux Lite 7.2, backing up specific folders, Murena and Fairphone partner in fair trade deal, Arch installer gets new text interface, Ubuntu security tool patched |
| • Issue 1097 (2024-11-18): Chimera Linux vs Chimera OS, choosing between AlmaLinux and Debian, Fedora elevates KDE spin to an edition, Fedora previews new installer, KDE testing its own distro, Qubes-style isolation coming to FreeBSD |
| • Issue 1096 (2024-11-11): Bazzite 40, Playtron OS Alpha 1, Tucana Linux 3.1, detecting Screen sessions, Redox imports COSMIC software centre, FreeBSD booting on the PinePhone Pro, LXQt supports Wayland window managers |
| • Issue 1095 (2024-11-04): Fedora 41 Kinoite, transferring applications between computers, openSUSE Tumbleweed receives multiple upgrades, Ubuntu testing compiler optimizations, Mint partners with Framework |
| • Issue 1094 (2024-10-28): DebLight OS 1, backing up crontab, AlmaLinux introduces Litten branch, openSUSE unveils refreshed look, Ubuntu turns 20
| | • Issue 1093 (2024-10-21): Kubuntu 24.10, atomic vs immutable distributions, Debian upgrading Perl packages, UBports adding VoLTE support, Android to gain native GNU/Linux application support |
| • Issue 1092 (2024-10-14): FunOS 24.04.1, a home directory inside a file, work starts of openSUSE Leap 16.0, improvements in Haiku, KDE neon upgrades its base |
| • Issue 1091 (2024-10-07): Redox OS 0.9.0, Unified package management vs universal package formats, Redox begins RISC-V port, Mint polishes interface, Qubes certifies new laptop |
| • Issue 1090 (2024-09-30): Rhino Linux 2024.2, commercial distros with alternative desktops, Valve seeks to improve Wayland performance, HardenedBSD parterns with Protectli, Tails merges with Tor Project, Quantum Leap partners with the FreeBSD Foundation |
| • Issue 1089 (2024-09-23): Expirion 6.0, openKylin 2.0, managing configuration files, the future of Linux development, fixing bugs in Haiku, Slackware packages dracut |
| • Issue 1088 (2024-09-16): PorteuX 1.6, migrating from Windows 10 to which Linux distro, making NetBSD immutable, AlmaLinux offers hardware certification, Mint updates old APT tools |
| • Issue 1087 (2024-09-09): COSMIC desktop, running cron jobs at variable times, UBports highlights new apps, HardenedBSD offers work around for FreeBSD change, Debian considers how to cull old packages, systemd ported to musl |
| • Issue 1086 (2024-09-02): Vanilla OS 2, command line tips for simple tasks, FreeBSD receives investment from STF, openSUSE Tumbleweed update can break network connections, Debian refreshes media |
| • Issue 1085 (2024-08-26): Nobara 40, OpenMandriva 24.07 "ROME", distros which include source code, FreeBSD publishes quarterly report, Microsoft updates breaks Linux in dual-boot environments |
| • Issue 1084 (2024-08-19): Liya 2.0, dual boot with encryption, Haiku introduces performance improvements, Gentoo dropping IA-64, Redcore merges major upgrade |
| • Issue 1083 (2024-08-12): TrueNAS 24.04.2 "SCALE", Linux distros for smartphones, Redox OS introduces web server, PipeWire exposes battery drain on Linux, Canonical updates kernel version policy |
| • Issue 1082 (2024-08-05): Linux Mint 22, taking snapshots of UFS on FreeBSD, openSUSE updates Tumbleweed and Aeon, Debian creates Tiny QA Tasks, Manjaro testing immutable images |
| • Issue 1081 (2024-07-29): SysLinuxOS 12.4, OpenBSD gain hardware acceleration, Slackware changes kernel naming, Mint publishes upgrade instructions |
| • Issue 1080 (2024-07-22): Running GNU/Linux on Android with Andronix, protecting network services, Solus dropping AppArmor and Snap, openSUSE Aeon Desktop gaining full disk encryption, SUSE asks openSUSE to change its branding |
| • Issue 1079 (2024-07-15): Ubuntu Core 24, hiding files on Linux, Fedora dropping X11 packages on Workstation, Red Hat phasing out GRUB, new OpenSSH vulnerability, FreeBSD speeds up release cycle, UBports testing new first-run wizard |
| • Issue 1078 (2024-07-08): Changing init software, server machines running desktop environments, OpenSSH vulnerability patched, Peppermint launches new edition, HardenedBSD updates ports |
| • Issue 1077 (2024-07-01): The Unity and Lomiri interfaces, different distros for different tasks, Ubuntu plans to run Wayland on NVIDIA cards, openSUSE updates Leap Micro, Debian releases refreshed media, UBports gaining contact synchronisation, FreeDOS celebrates its 30th anniversary |
| • Issue 1076 (2024-06-24): openSUSE 15.6, what makes Linux unique, SUSE Liberty Linux to support CentOS Linux 7, SLE receives 19 years of support, openSUSE testing Leap Micro edition |
| • Issue 1075 (2024-06-17): Redox OS, X11 and Wayland on the BSDs, AlmaLinux releases Pi build, Canonical announces RISC-V laptop with Ubuntu, key changes in systemd |
| • Issue 1074 (2024-06-10): Endless OS 6.0.0, distros with init diversity, Mint to filter unverified Flatpaks, Debian adds systemd-boot options, Redox adopts COSMIC desktop, OpenSSH gains new security features |
| • Issue 1073 (2024-06-03): LXQt 2.0.0, an overview of Linux desktop environments, Canonical partners with Milk-V, openSUSE introduces new features in Aeon Desktop, Fedora mirrors see rise in traffic, Wayland adds OpenBSD support |
| • Issue 1072 (2024-05-27): Manjaro 24.0, comparing init software, OpenBSD ports Plasma 6, Arch community debates mirror requirements, ThinOS to upgrade its FreeBSD core |
| • Issue 1071 (2024-05-20): Archcraft 2024.04.06, common command line mistakes, ReactOS imports WINE improvements, Haiku makes adjusting themes easier, NetBSD takes a stand against code generated by chatbots |
| • Issue 1070 (2024-05-13): Damn Small Linux 2024, hiding kernel messages during boot, Red Hat offers AI edition, new web browser for UBports, Fedora Asahi Remix 40 released, Qubes extends support for version 4.1 |
| • Issue 1069 (2024-05-06): Ubuntu 24.04, installing packages in alternative locations, systemd creates sudo alternative, Mint encourages XApps collaboration, FreeBSD publishes quarterly update |
| • Issue 1068 (2024-04-29): Fedora 40, transforming one distro into another, Debian elects new Project Leader, Red Hat extends support cycle, Emmabuntus adds accessibility features, Canonical's new security features |
| • Issue 1067 (2024-04-22): LocalSend for transferring files, detecting supported CPU architecure levels, new visual design for APT, Fedora and openSUSE working on reproducible builds, LXQt released, AlmaLinux re-adds hardware support |
| • Full list of all issues |
| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
|
| Random Distribution | 
Progeny Debian
Founded in March 2000, Progeny Linux Systems develops Linux-based software and services for networking computing environments. Progeny Componentized Linux was a new kind of Linux "distribution", built bottom-up as a set of interchangeable parts that closely track their counterpart "upstream" open-source projects, rather than top-down as a monolithic, difficult-to-change whole. By being constructed in this fashion, the componentized Linux was easier to customise and modify than traditional Linux distributions.
Status: Discontinued
|
| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
|
| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
|
|
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
/43711S0100RMW-1x0.jpg){kind=link}
