 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 942, 8 November 2021 |
Welcome to this year's 44th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
MX Linux is a Debian-based project which provides a mid-weight, desktop distribution with a collection of custom configuration utilities. The project has attracted attention in recent years for its unusual desktop layout and out of the box functionality. This week Jeff Siegel takes MX Linux 21 for a test drive and reports on his impressions of the distribution. In our News section we share improvements coming to the Linux Mint project along with changes to Mint's Firefox package. We also talk about changes to Haiku's driver compatibility and link to an open forum held by the Rocky Linux team. The Rocky developers talked about what makes their distribution special, how it came to be, and their relationship with other members of the Red Hat family of distributions. Then we discuss kernel efficiency and what factors to consider when trying to measure kernel performance. Plus we are pleased to share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. One of last week's releases was Fedora 35, a project which uses a predictable (if often flexible) schedule. Do you like it when distributions run on a fixed schedule or do you prefer a "wait until it's ready" approach to new versions? Let us know in this week's Opinion Poll. We wish you all a fantastic week and happy reading!
Content:
- Review: MX Linux 21
- News: Mint polishes desktop tools, Rocky Linux team answers questions, Haiku makes kernel build adjustment
- Questions and answers: Comparing kernel efficiency
- Released last week: Fedora 35, Voyager Live 21.10
- Torrent corner: Arch, Archman, Fedora, FuguIta, KDE neon, LibreELEC, PrimTux, Voyager Live
- Upcoming releases: FreeBSD 12.3 RC1
- Opinion poll: Predictable release schedules
- New distributions: Itd OS, DragonOS, Potabi
- Reader comments
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (13MB) and MP3 (10MB) formats.
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| Feature Story (by Jeff Siegel) |
MX Linux 21
There is no reason why MX Linux 21, the newest version of yet another of Linux's seemingly infinite number of community-based operating systems, should be this well done. This is, after all, a mostly volunteer operation, just like all the other of Linux's seemingly infinite number of community-based operating systems.
But it is that well done.
That MX 21, codenamed Wildflower, is such a joy to use speaks volumes about Linux and its potential on the desktop, the dedication of its users, and why so many of us never want to boot a Big Tech operating system ever again. It's not so much that MX 21 just works, but that its developers have made a serious effort to identify what would make it work even better.
That means terrific documentation, a surprisingly effective installer, and the much-ballyhooed MX-Tools. In this, it tries to be self-contained; that is, you won't have to search for a Deb package file on the Internet to add something that you need because MX already has software for almost every contingency. Plus, MX is so tweakable that you'll probably get tired of tweaking it. How does 25 installed themes sound?
MX Linux 21 -- MX Tweak
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A distinguished history
MX has its roots in users of the discontinued MEPIS Linux distro, as well as antiX, a top-notch, low-end hardware distro that is similar to Puppy Linux, but can be installed on a hard drive without making your brain hurt. The two groups found common ground and released the first MX, MX-14, in 2014. It has always been based on the Debian Stable branch and has always featured the Xfce desktop. MX-21 uses Debian Bullseye, Xfce 4.16, and the 5.10 kernel, in both 32- and 64-bit versions. There are also 32- and 64-bit Fluxbox versions (which were added for the first time for this release) as well as a 64-bit KDE version. MX-21 is supported until June 2024.
I purposely used a 7-year-old laptop - a Dell Inspiron 11 3147 with a touchscreen - to test the 64-bit Xfce desktop. That's because MX describes itself as a mid-weight operating system, so it's not as frugal as antiX but should still be able to work on less modern hardware than Ubuntu or Fedora. As such, the system specs call for at least 1GB of RAM (2GB recommended), 6GB of hard drive space (20GB recommended), and a "modern" Intel i686 or AMD processor.
In this trial everything worked out of the box, including the touchscreen. Which, frankly, was surprising, given Linux's consistent inconsistency with touchscreens. The older processor slowed down boot times, as well as how long some software took to load, including Firefox. But it was still quicker with Firefox by three of four seconds than on my Windows 10 box with its Intel Core 2 Duo processor from 2008.
MX Linux 21 -- The Xfce desktop
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There also wasn't too much trouble running MX-21 in VirtualBox, save for Firefox. The system loaded quickly, I was able to resize the windows and run through a variety of tasks, including testing LibreOffice, with ease. Then I loaded the browser. The CPU monitor showed 100% and the virtual instance crashed. Similarly, the live boot works as it should - a little laggy at times, but nothing to cause you to bang the keyboard in frustration. And it remembered my Wi-Fi settings after installation.
MX Linux 21 -- Running Firefox
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MX-21 uses its own installer, so you'll need to pay more attention than if you're used to something like Ubuntu's click-and-forget Ubiquity. That means several things: First, read the instructions on the left side of the installer, which explain what to do if you need to deal with UEFI. Second, there's an option to set up a user and as well as a root password, which might confuse those who just want to set up a one-person system, and which could lead to locking themselves out of root. Finally, the installer asks how to deal with the home and root partitions; stick with the default choice and you'll be OK.
MX Linux 21 -- The MX installer
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On the desktop
The MX-21 experience is its great strength, both in its design and in its vast assortment of system utilities. It's simple and straightforward and, as noted, there seems to be a specific tool for almost anything anyone could want to do. Yes, the look and feel of most of the MX-designed apps is nothing more than basic, without any of the glitz and polish so many others deliver. But all of it works, and what more can we ask for?
MX Linux 21 -- MX Tools
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The highlight is MX Tools, which expands Xfce's system settings to include bunches of mini-apps, including boot repair, installing NVIDIA drivers, a codec installer, disk cleaner, and my favorite - a USB formatter. Would that Xubuntu had this, so I would never have to deal with GParted ever again. And there is also MX Tweaks, which offers a variety of simple changes, including disabling single click on the desktop and in the file manager.
Also terrific: Copying error information to the clipboard automatically formats to the proper style for the MX forums.
MX Linux 21 -- Copying system information
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And none of this includes the Midnight Commander file manager, the Timeshift system restore app, and luckyBackup, which seems to be the most simple and straightforward backup and sync utility I've seen. Plus, no digging in the repositories for dconf and gdebi, both of which are installed by default. You'll still have run gdebi from the command line, though. But even there MX has been able to fix the GUI problem, where gdebi will launch but won't install the Deb file.
The most obvious design difference - for Xfce, anyway - is the panel and taskbar on the left hand side. It's not quite as obtrusive as the GNOME left-hand panel; plus, it can be changed, modified, and edited without any trouble. The half dozen or so icons and indicators on top of the menu button at the bottom of the panel offer quick access to printers, the clipboard, Bluetooth, mounted volumes, and even Nextcloud and Zoom. The menu button accesses an even more complete version of the Xfce Whisker menu.
MX Linux 21 -- The application menu
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Conky - the system monitor that was desktop bling a decade ago - makes a most welcome appearance. I've never really thought about using it on Xubuntu, but it fits nicely here and, thanks to MX Conky, you can conk to your heart's delight. That even means the option of adding accurate weather information, which has long been an Xfce weakness.
The software collection is most of the usual - Firefox 93, Thunderbird 78.13, LibreOffice 7.0.4.2, and VLC for music and videos. gThumb is the image viewer, Clementine is the music player, and qpdfview is the PDF reader. There is also the Foliate e-book reader and webcamiod to take pictures and videos with a webcam. If it's not as streamlined as Cheese, I didn't find it glitching or hanging up the way Cheese can.
Does it all work?
Yes, it does. My music played. The system found my Canon MX- 922 printer and scanner and it printed and scanned. The network manager did what it was supposed to do, something else that Xfce can have trouble with. I was able to add Nextcloud without any problems and access my home network files easily. Nothing crashed and nothing happened that I didn't expect to happen. That's about as good as Linux - or any OS - gets, yes?
A word here about systemd, which MX uses - sort of. Technically, it ships with systemd present but disabled by default. So you can enable it if you want to replace SysV init, which is the default init. This strikes me as a suitable compromise to the entire systemd controversy. And it's worth noting that I didn't experience any appreciable differences between the MX version of Xfce, without systemd, and the Xubuntu version, which uses it.
In other words, MX-21 can serve as a production machine without any trouble, and something I've done with earlier versions. That I don't use it today is not so much about MX (save for the less polished look of the home-grown apps) as it is about how much effort I want to put in to get my machine just the way I want it. As noted again, there is almost too much tweaking possible with MX. How's that for the biggest drawback in an operating system?
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Hardware used for this review
My physical test equipment for this review was a Dell Inspiron 11 3147 laptop with the following specifications:
- Processor: Intel Pentium N3530, 2.16GHz
- Storage: 465 GB HDD
- Memory: 8GB of RAM
- Networking: Qualcomm Atheros QCA9565 802.11 b/g/n/ Wi-Fi+Bluetooth
- Display: Intel HD Graphics
When he is not testing out new versions of Linux distributions, Jeff Siegel can be found writing about all things related to wine at Wine Curmudgeon.
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Visitor supplied rating
MX Linux has a visitor supplied average rating of: 8/10 from 617 review(s).
Have you used MX Linux? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Mint polishes desktop tools, Rocky Linux team answers questions, Haiku makes kernel build adjustment
The Linux Mint team have published an update, reporting on progress made over the past month and upcoming changes to their distribution. Improvements are being made to the distribution's custom desktop tools as well as the crash report tool. The Firefox package is also getting a modification: "Following some of the discussions we had here on this blog and your feedback in the comments section, the upcoming versions of Xed and Xreader will feature an option to hide the menubar. When it is hidden the application uses less space and fits in a smaller screen resolution. Pressing the Alt key makes the menubar visible momentarily. Xed also gained the ability to switch between opened tabs using Ctrl-Tab and Ctrl-Shift-Tab. The System Reports tool will check systems to ensure they're merged (i.e. according to usrmerge specs) and warn users when this isn't the case. In LMDE 4, Firefox 78 ESR will be upgraded to version 94. LMDE will no longer follow the ESR version. It will use the same version of Firefox as Linux Mint." Further information can be found in the project's monthly newsletter.
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Rocky Linux is one of the community editions of Enterprise Linux which came into being after Red Hat announced it would be phasing out CentOS Linux. The Rocky Linux team have taken to Reddit to engage the community in an Ask Me Anything (AMA) session. "We're the team behind Rocky Linux. Rocky Linux is an Enterprise Linux distribution that is bug-for-bug compatible with RHEL, created after CentOS's change of direction in December of 2020. It's been an exciting few months since our first stable release in June. We're thrilled to be hosted by the /r/linux community for an AMA (Ask Me Anything) interview!" The resulting questions and answers can be found in the team's conversation thread.
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The Haiku team has been working on a new toolchain for building the Haiku kernel. The kernel was previously built with the GNU Compiler Collection, version 2. With an upgrade to version 8 of the compiler, backward compatibility with BeOS drivers may be lost. However, it seems no one is using old BeOS drivers with Haiku anymore. "Waddlesplash made the kernel always build with GCC 8, even on 32-bit systems. It was built with GCC 2 until now, but it was not possible to use BeOS drivers anymore since the introduction of SMAP and other features, which led to slight changes in the driver ABI. No one complained, so there is no reason to preserve BeOS driver compatibility further. This should result in performance improvements for 32-bit installations, as the new compiler is much better at optimizing code. And it will allow kernel developers to use more modern C++ features." Additional changes coming to Haiku are covered in the project's newsletter.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Comparing kernel efficiency
Seeking-efficiency asks: Which kernel of these operating systems (Windows, Linux, macOS) is more efficient? How could I justify this answer?
DistroWatch answers: It's an interesting question and one where you could take a number of approaches to trying to sort out which kernel will be more efficient. I suppose before you could really answer this question you'd need to decide two things:
First, in what way do you want the kernel to be more efficient? Are you interested in application speed, networking performance, memory size, developer effort in porting, loading drivers, avoiding context switches, blocking attacks on the kernel, pushing functionality out to userspace utilities? There are a lot of different ways a piece of software can be more or less efficient and several ways in which a kernel could be optimized. Deciding what you want to measure to determine relevant efficiency would be the first step.
Second, how do you plan to measure efficiency? The three kernels mentioned are quite different in their design and approach so you'd need to figure out how you plan to measure the parameters you selected in the first step. Are you looking at size on disk, size in memory, CPU resource consumption, counting context switches, performance of specific applications, monitoring network traffic rates? Are you going to make a feature table and compare what each kernel can do on its own versus what it relies on userspace to provide?
Once you can answer those two questions you will be able to outline what you mean by "more efficient" and have a way to test the three kernels to determine which one is best for your situation. This wouldn't mean one kernel is always more efficient in every way, but it would mean you could say confidently that one kernel is more efficient in a given way and show evidence as to why that is true.
Something I suspect you will find if you dive deep into testing kernel efficiency from various angles is that the Linux kernel will vary a lot in its benchmarks depending on how it is configured. Linux has a lot of build-time options, allowing for the addition (or removal) of countless drivers, different CPU and disk schedulers, CPU security mitigations, and video drivers. Each of these will vary its disk consumption, memory usage, CPU performance, and latency. You may end up finding there is a bigger gap between two Linux kernels with different build options in some of your tests than between a Linux kernel versus commercial kernels.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Fedora 35
The Fedora team have announced the launch of Fedora 35. The new version of Fedora ships with GNOME 41, the PipeWire audio system, and the WirePlumber session manager. "We switched the default audio system to PipeWire in Fedora Linux 34, and now we're improving this by adding the new WirePlumber session manager. WirePlumber allows for more customization of the policy and rules for audio and video. It provides a richer development experience and adds bindings for most languages. If you enable the third-party repositories that ship in Fedora Linux desktop variants, those repositories are now immediately available. Additionally, enabling third-party repositories now makes selected Flathub applications available via a filtered Flathub remote. This eases access to a curated list of applications that will not cause legal or other problems for Fedora to point to, does not overlap Fedora Flatpaks, and works reasonably well." The release announcement offers further details.
Fedora 35 -- Running the GNOME desktop
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Voyager Live 21.10
Voyager Live is an Ubuntu-based distribution featuring the GNOME desktop and with French language support. The project has released Voyager Live 21.10 which offers the GNOME 40 desktop and nine months of support. "I introduce you Voyager 21.10 GE which continues the adventure with the GNOME Shell desktop version 40 by introducing new features, support for new systems and technologies and a whole new layout with visual changes for applications and virtual desktops. Improved support for AMD GPUs. A new security module called Landlock with the promise finally realized, to have a light, fast, modern, fluid, secure and efficient GNOME system in a hybrid environment for PC and Tablet. This version is based on the Linux 5.13 kernel and the Ubuntu distribution"Impish Indri" 21.10. It is an intermediate version with 9 months of updates that prepares for the future 5 year LTS - Long-Term Support version which is coming soon. With integrated, options like Conky Control, Repair, Switch Ubuntu, WINE-staging and Steam Gaming in the Box Voyager and 39 GNOME extensions selected according to PC needs." Further information is available in the project's release announcement.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Peers connected: 1,289
- Total torrents seeded: 2,646
- Total data uploaded: 40.8TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Predictable release schedules
Some Linux distributions stick to a fixed release schedule. Projects such as Ubuntu and Fedora try to put out regular releases on a predetermined schedule, making upgrades a predictable part of running the operating system. Other distributions don't follow a set schedule, but release new versions when the developers feel the software is mature enough to use. Slackware and Debian famously "release when ready". This makes upgrading less predictable, though hopefully results in a more stable experience for the user.
Do you prefer one method over the other? Which approach does your chosen distribution use?
You can see the results of our previous poll on favourite web browsers in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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Fixed versus when-ready release schedules
| I prefer a fixed/predictable schedule: | 381 (23%) |
| I prefer a when-ready schedule: | 849 (52%) |
| No preference: | 406 (25%) |
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| Website News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- Itd OS. Itd OS is an Ubuntu-based distribution featuring the KDE Plasma desktop. The distribution ships with preload which caches commonly used files in memory for faster launch times.
- DragonOS. DragonOS is based on Lubuntu and features tools for people who wish to work with software defined radios.
- Potabi. Potabi is a fork of FreeBSD which ships with the Lumina desktop. The project intends to offer alternative designs and implementations which are not present in other UNIX-like operating systems.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 15 November 2021. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Article Search page. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • MX Linux (by 8bit on 2021-11-08 00:40:07 GMT from United States)
I've used MX Linux for years because it just works. Debian stable with fresh packages (Firefox, etc,) several kernels to choose from, and an active and helpful forum. What's not to like?
2 • MX-21 (by Brad on 2021-11-08 00:44:09 GMT from United States)
The thing I like best about MX-21 is the ability to create a live, persistent USB stick, using the very lightweight Fluxbox - I now have a single USB stick that can handle most (if not all) my needs for a rescue stick.
I still won't use it as my daily driver for my "production" laptops, because there is no real use case for me to move away from Manjaro; but it now resides happily on an old 64-bit laptop and 32-bit laptop, both running XFCE, in the hopes that I can keep them going until the HW falls over.
The only other criticism I have is the developer's insistence on using videos (some a few years old) as tutorials to explain how to accomplish tasks - I found this particularly annoying when attempting to understand and use persistence - for me, at least. I understand step-by-step written instructions (e.g., Arch or Gentoo installation Wikis) much better than video tutorials.
3 • Release schedules (by Brad on 2021-11-08 00:48:29 GMT from United States)
I voted "no opinion", because my daily driver is Manjaro, which is rolling-release.
If I had to choose between the other two options - I would say that Debian's schedule would be the preferred method.
4 • Release schedules (by DaveW on 2021-11-08 01:18:16 GMT from United States)
My daily driver is Linux Mint, which is on a fixed schedule. However, I selected "no preference" because if the Mint group changed to no fixed schedule, I would keep using that OS.
I also have MX Linux on a secondary (older) computer, and it has been working fine there for several years. I could see myself using it as a daily driver if something unfortunate happened to the Mint OS.
5 • MX Linux Review (by Curious on 2021-11-08 01:27:24 GMT from Canada)
Nice to see the MX review. It is my default OS on one computer, with Slackware on the other.
Presently using MX 19.4, but the review reminded me time to download the new Fluxbox version and have a look at that.
Have previously seen a few negative comments about MX tools/Tweak, but I like those tools. If the person who previously complained about them being badly written or thought out could expound upon why, and how they would go about "fixing" it, that would be a little more enlightening.
About the ONLY thing that bothered me was MX defaults to using UUIDs. I prefer to setup an fstab, and go with that; but it's easily enough fixed. Seem to recall at one point, someone complaining about some USB memory sticks not being addressable from a terminal, and needing to use UUID, but it was not a problem from the GUI. Can hazard a guess that may be why MX defaults to using UUID?
Speaking of fixed release dates versus "release when ready", Slackware 14.2 is now what, 5 years old? There's Slackware "current", but looking forward to 15.0. Hope I'm still around when they finally release it.
Finally, have to agree with 2) Brad about videos. I also MUCH prefer detailed written instructions to videos. Perhaps this is a generational thing with younger kids having grown up with videos. But you certainly won't find any (hardware) engineer designing a product by video. It's detailed drawings and specifications all the way. And imagine trying to get your finally designed product government certified using videos (hysterical laughter in the background).
6 • UUIDs (by Jesse on 2021-11-08 01:38:19 GMT from Canada)
@5: "About the ONLY thing that bothered me was MX defaults to using UUIDs. I prefer to setup an fstab, and go with that; "
I'm not sure what you mean by this. UUIDs are set up in the fstab file. You still need to use fstab even if you identify drives by UUID.
"Seem to recall at one point, someone complaining about some USB memory sticks not being addressable from a terminal, and needing to use UUID, but it was not a problem from the GUI. Can hazard a guess that may be why MX defaults to using UUID?"
UUIDs are just another label for identifying a drive, like any other drive name or label. It doesn't matter if you use a UUID string or a classic device name like "/dev/sda". It works the same way.
The reason more projects are using UUIDs these days (including MX Linux) is that the UUIDs won't change if you add new drives to your system. On single-drive systems it doesn't matter if you refer to a disk as sda or hda or by its UUID. But on a multi-drive system using classic names can result in your drives changing names (from sda to sdb, for example) which will break your fstab and prevent your partitions from mounting properly.
7 • UUIDs (by Curious on 2021-11-08 02:23:22 GMT from Canada)
@6 Jesse
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I am used to having to make adjustments to my fstab.
At the time I installed MX 19.4, (released 6 or 12 months ago?), I discovered only UUIDs being referenced in the fstab.
Then realized in the gui, at least the file manager showed the UUIDs, so it was just a matter of clicking on the appropriate one (which was fortunate, because most of us without photographic memories are not going to remember a UUID).
So thanks to the last paragraph (specifically the last line) in your explanation, at least now I understand why the default to UUID in the fstab, rather than classic device names.
8 • fstab and UUID (by Jesse on 2021-11-08 03:12:58 GMT from Canada)
@7: As a footnote to my previous comment, if you wanted to you could edit your fstab file to use the classic device names, like /dev/sda, instead of UUIDs. It's not recommended, but you can do it.
The good news is you don't need to remember or recognize a UUID. You can see a list of all devices using "lsblk --fs". This shows the device's classic name, its UUID, and any mounted filesystem.
9 • fixed vs when ready (by papapito on 2021-11-08 03:28:00 GMT from Australia)
don't really care. Both allow mistakes to be made or could result in a perfect release at the time.
I can definitely see the point in wanting to show progress by "releasing" on a regular basis, in this modern whackadoodle time, things like Itchy Inga and Freddo 35 are heralded as the new age even though there is not much more than some time and bug fixes and the occasional feature update that was also available prior to the update... imagine.
I really feel that a lot of the modern linux distros could cease to exist if only we had some simpler way for people to choose a kernel, package management, desktop and apps when setting up their.... oh calamares, hi there.
10 • gdebi (by foo2foo on 2021-11-08 04:44:25 GMT from United States)
You don’t even have to use gdebi at all, MX has for a long time had the ability to just right click a single or multiple .deb packages, and select to install them from the right click menu. The option is down at the bottom. It’s super fast and easy.
11 • UUIDs (by cor on 2021-11-08 05:17:05 GMT from United States)
I find using LABEL in fstab to work even better than UUID entries. Just my preference.
12 • Fixed Schedule (by Eric on 2021-11-08 05:19:21 GMT from Canada)
I tend to prefer fixed/predictabile release schedules. It gives my time to prepare, and set aside a day for upgrading well ahead of time. What I don't like is when there's a release every <6 months, as those are typically minor updates that don't really warrant their own release. You do run into the problem of outdated software if releases are spaced too far apart though.
I think FreeBSD has a good solution for this: The ports/packages are seperate from the base system. The base system gets a new major release roughly every 2 years, while the ports/packages receive updates more frequently. Allows for stability and new versions of software. It avoids useless releases too.
13 • MX is great. Why no GIMP? (by GWBridge on 2021-11-08 05:26:35 GMT from United States)
I have been using MX for several years and have gone through several upgrades as Debian evolves. I seem to have less trouble in MX installing with separate / and /home partitions, and can do a major system upgrade without losing my existing files, though I may have to reinstall some of the niche programs I prefer.
Is this the first version of MX to be distributed without the inclusion of GIMP?
I can't imagine Linux without GIMP. Not hard to install it, but I was surprised that I had to. But then, maybe that's just me because I only run LibreOffice about three times a year, and other people use it all day, every day.
14 • Exciting (by Kai Lyons on 2021-11-08 06:07:24 GMT from United States)
I know my project is really small, and it's going to be on that waiting list for a long time, but to consider it possibly being published to a site I use regularly to keep in the loop about what's going on in Linux, and what has been changing.
15 • I, too, prefer LABEL (by AndyBravo on 2021-11-08 06:34:20 GMT from United States)
I agree with cor, comment 11, about using LABEL in fstab. I've been using them for years, they don't change, and I don't get confused, which is a good thing.
16 • Release schedule (by Charlie on 2021-11-08 06:57:37 GMT from Hong Kong)
Switched to openSUSE Tumbleweed for years, rolling is the best solution for desktop, no worry about schedules as there are none! :)
17 • slow and steady wins the race (by fonz on 2021-11-08 08:02:50 GMT from Indonesia)
a long time ago, i realized a partitions 'label' was just from renaming a drive in your favorite file manager, the end. ever since that day i just continued to use labels because its much easier and thankfully most things work. on my usb fd, its just a boring label to boot refind or mbr, then mx19 frugal with my preferred stuff, all in 1 lazy partition (knr, bad practices). nothing in fstab, all done in simple bash, its like having your pc everywhere you go.
ive also recently tried mx21 but it seems a bit too heavy for a portable os, so ill just stick with 19 as it worked on every machine ive tried it on.
was pretty excited for the q&a, thought it was going to turn into a war zone, but we only got minor hints. wouldve been fun if we had some battles.
modernese people like bleeding edge stuff, and look at how derpy things got. look no further than modern games and their state of the art bugs, not-a-bug-but-a-features, and our greatest achievement, in-soviet-russia-software-owns-you!!!
18 • new distro potabi on waitinglist (by always curious about FOSS on 2021-11-08 08:39:24 GMT from Germany)
I took a look on the website of the developers of potabi because i wanted to take a look of the design of the lumia desktop. But there wasn't a screenshot.
There is one beta iso for desktop but no isos for server or mobile and the website is still in progress.
But the soon have a very good Merchandising. So they have a cool icon for heir project, its looks like firefox on lsd ( i like it ). And they have a shop with 18! different t-shirt and hoods. Wow.
But I don't want to be a blasphemer.
Much good look for you. Of cource I am going to try the stable iso.
19 • MX Linux review (by MichaelH on 2021-11-08 09:21:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
Good start, then a rather silly comment that Antix was similar to Puppy made me question the authors credibility. That's an insult to both distros and while both are intended for low end hardware, they couldn't be more different. Puppy is designed for ultra low end/ancient hardware and was never meant to be fully installed like most distros - it's a last ditch effort to get obsolete hardware to do something useful.
He then goes on to accuse MX tools of 'lacking polish' which I find a very strange observation. If there is any perceived lack of polish, I hadn't really noticed it and would trade that for functional anyway. MX tools are the jewel in the crown for me and what separates it from all the others.
I use MX Linux on very new hardware as my daily driver and wish more people would consider it, instead of mostly using it for older computers.
20 • @13 (GIMP in MX) (by Chris Whelan on 2021-11-08 09:36:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
The reason GIMP is not included by default is that the team felt it was somewhat specialised in nature. Instead, LazPaint is installed; this is much easier to use for most, although clearly not as capable of high-end editing.
The MX Linux Package Installer means GIMP (and many other applications) are only a couple of clicks away.
21 • MX Linux (by Dan on 2021-11-08 09:40:53 GMT from United States)
I haven't used MX LInux since version 15. I just never liked it, and to me me it was always very overated. Sure it has lots of programs as my cousin is always quick to point out, but then I say, how many of the programs do you actually use, and he usually says maybe 3 or 4 at most. As for me. I'm a Slackware hardware/Slackel virtual box user, and will use no other.
22 • Thanks for review (by Chris Whelan on 2021-11-08 09:41:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thank you for such a positive review of MX Linux, which I help out with in a small way.
Might I just point out that it is entirely developed by volunteers, with no paid or full time team members? It is a global collaboration, with the development team located in places as far apart as the US, Greece, the UK, and Australia.
23 • @21 (MX Linux) (by Chris Whelan on 2021-11-08 09:46:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
With regard to MX Linux being potentially over-populated with unneeded software, the team made the decision to release the new Fluxbox version with a much smeller set of applications to allow users to add what might be needed from the MX Package Installer.
Perhaps this might address your concerns?
24 • MX Linux (by Mike on 2021-11-08 10:49:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Kudos to Chris Whelan for representing MX here in the comments section and answering some of the critics respectfully.
Some un-biased feedback here from someone who has bounced around a lot of distros and still uses a few of them for different purposes.
I have used MX Linux 19 XFCE recently (I had the ISO to hand) to build an external drive for system backup using Foxclone. I found it stupidly quick and easy to do, the installer is a joy to use. The only issue really was with Foxclone itself post install from a downloaded deb file needing full root access instead of sudo rights but once I had figured that out it was essentially job done.
The reason for doing this, I am getting rid of my internal DVD+RW drive to make way for another SSD on a system with only 2 SATA ports. I hardly ever need the DVD+RW drive now and have a USB Blu-Ray for my laptop I can borrow for the desktop if necessary. So I wanted the external backup destinations (make one 2TB drive bootable and clone it to the other) rather than making a separate USB stick to plug in.
I was highly impressed with the MX tools. I found them very useful and polished while configuring the drive. So the interface isn't that great to look at, who cares? Sometimes form should definitely follow function and MX Tools interface nails this philosophy. It's reasonably compact and works great without relying on animated pages with tabs or radio buttons for the sake of looking modern.
I'll definitely take a look at MX Linux 21 out of interest but would won't be switching just yet. I may in the future as I like the philosophy and the MX Team and community seem approachable rather than elitist from what I have read on their support pages and forum.
However, at present I have my Linux system configured exactly how I want so messing with it is not top of my priorities.
25 • MX21 (by kc1di on 2021-11-08 10:50:34 GMT from United States)
I use MX-21 KDE and have found it to be very good Distro solid and provides all that I need. @ 13 Gimp is no longer default but it's uninstallable vis the MX package manager. I suspect they drop gimp on the usb to save room. In any event good review, thanks.
26 • Release schedule (by DLCBurggraaff on 2021-11-08 11:12:08 GMT from Netherlands)
I voted for the "when ready" schedule.
But perfect is the enemy of good. E.g. Slackware stable does not seem to be ready after 5 (!) years.
27 • @Jeff (by whoKnows on 2021-11-08 11:21:49 GMT from Switzerland)
"It's not so much that MX 21 just works, but [...] The highlight is MX Tools, which expands Xfce's system settings to include bunches of mini-apps, including boot repair [...]"
Don't want to spoil the fun for anybody, but ... something that "just works" shouldn't need a boot repair tool.
And if it ever needs it, it gets replaced with something else that actually works. No?
28 • UUID's (by penguinx86 on 2021-11-08 11:28:14 GMT from United States)
I was confused by; UUID"s at first. But you can find UUID's with the following command:
sudo blkid | grep UUID=
29 • Boot repair (by Jesse on 2021-11-08 11:59:42 GMT from Canada)
@27: "Don't want to spoil the fun for anybody, but ... something that "just works" shouldn't need a boot repair tool."
Why do you think that? Boot repair tools aren't typically used to fix a problem in the operating system's boot software or processes. They're used for situations when someone has done something destructive (usually installing another operating system) and it has trashed the boot loader. The boot system works fine on its own, but people who distro-hop have a habit of overwriting their boot loader.
30 • @29 Boot repair (by James on 2021-11-08 12:19:24 GMT from United States)
Amen, after 10+ years of using Linux based operating systems and participating in the forums a lot more problems are caused by the users than the developers. That is not to say there are not bugs, there are, bur we cause so many of our own problems.
31 • MX (by crayola eater on 2021-11-08 12:59:02 GMT from United States)
Mepis (2003, 2004?) was the distro that brought linux to be my main driver, as opposed to linux being my computer hobby. Warren even then had put together a quite stable and sophisticated distro pretty much by himself with a band of loyal testers (and instigators). And it was the very active and friendly community on their forum that made all things possible. It also was my first introduction to Debain (having previously been a Slackware and Slax cohort). Have never seriously looked back on Debian yet.
So it was with great sorrow that we saw Warren depart, and with greater joy to see the union of the Mepis community and Anticapitalista's antiX produce MX. I've always been of the opinion that Mepis/MX was the best suited distro to lay on Windows people expressing an interest in Linux, due to it's stability and capabilities. And that continues to this day. And while I am not a hard core driver in the linux world, I believe that MX has the power to be a serious geek's main driver (does it still power Jesse's day to day?).
So kudos to the MX team for the new release. It will be a joy to see it first hand, even if it is no longer my main driver. I have slid to antiX's net install with runit, Xorg and Openbox. I keep getting smaller. In the end I will probably just use an old minix box.
32 • MX Boot Repair tool @27 (by Hoos on 2021-11-08 13:17:48 GMT from Singapore)
I agree completely with Jesse at @29
I have a few distros installed on my machine, including some rolling distros.
I have MX on USB as a great rescue live USB. The Boot Repair tool is excellent for reinstalling grub, and the Chroot Rescue Scan allows you -- in a text-based interface -- to easily mount any distro on the machine and chroot into it to make necessary repairs when one is unable to boot into the problematic distro itself. I've used the chroot tool once or twice to sort out my Arch-based distro.
PS. That's just the official "normal" MX Linux. There is an even more dedicated live iso called MX Workbench which is chock full of any rescue/recovery and other useful utilities you can think of. It's an "official" unofficial respin, made by one of the MX developers.
33 • MX 21: (by dragonmouth on 2021-11-08 13:24:31 GMT from United States)
"How does 25 installed themes sound? "
Sounds like unnecessary bloat that I will have to waste time to uninstall. I recently (within the past year) installed the previous version of MX. Subsequently, I uninstalled 600-800 MB of unwanted/unneeded software including over a hundred fonts and many themes.
Curiously among all the device drivers that are installed by default, I have yet to see the driver for my supposedly popular Brother laser printer. No matter which distro I install, I always have to download the printer driver from the Brother site post-install.
34 • continued from @33 MX live USB (by Hoos on 2021-11-08 13:24:32 GMT from Singapore)
I forgot to mention, even from the bootup menu screen of MX, one is able to access amazing boot options, like scanning the whole computer for every bootloader found on it, or every grub.cfg, etc. THat's not in MX Tools; you don't even need to boot into MX from the boot menu to use that function.
Again, it means that if you dual- or multi- boot, you would possibly be from MX's boot menu to boot into any other distro, if for some reason that other distro can't be booted into normally.
35 • MX Linux (by Jesse on 2021-11-08 13:27:31 GMT from Canada)
@31: "I believe that MX has the power to be a serious geek's main driver (does it still power Jesse's day to day?)."
Yes, I upgraded to MX 21 on my main machine about two weeks ago. Been really happy with it. Everything has been smooth sailing, the new release feels really polished.
Jeff Siegel kindly offered to review this version to give me a break, but if I had reviewed MX 21 it would have had a similar conclusion. This distribution is very well suited for the way I naturally want to interact with my machines. It provides an almost ideal combination of functionality and friendliness while being lightweight and staying out of my way.
36 • @33 Brother printers and MX (by Hoos on 2021-11-08 13:34:26 GMT from Singapore)
Up to MX18, I had to manually install the official Brother printer from their website.
In MX19, the system found the printer automatically, without need for any driver. However, the scanner driver had to be installed.
In MX21, I was pleasantly surprised to see both printer and driver automatically detected without any installation.
So, at least based on my own Brother model, I can say there has been progress the last 2 iterations of MX.
37 • Kolourpaint a good substitute for GIMP (by Ted H in Minnesota on 2021-11-08 13:36:48 GMT from United States)
Never used GIMP. Though it does more, it is way too complicated and cluttered for me and my taste. I use Kolourpaint for linux, which is an improved clone of Window's Paint with improved features. Uncluttered interface, that enables me to do a lot, including cloning areas of background. Yes, being based on KDE, it needs a lot of KDE-included files to run on MX, but it is worth it. It does all I want to do.
Ted H
38 • @#2 (Brad) -> criticism I have is the developer's insistence on using videos... (by Andre Gompel on 2021-11-08 14:42:12 GMT from Poland)
@#2 (Brad)
"The only other criticism I have is the developer's insistence on using videos (some a few years old) as tutorials to explain how to accomplish tasks - I found this particularly annoying when attempting to understand and use persistence - for me, at least. I understand step-by-step written instructions (e.g., Arch or Gentoo installation Wikis) much better than video tutorials."
This disease, often from marketing people, to consider that engineers, don't know how to read, as an excuse to not write good, clean, concise (Thanks to O'Reilly's "Nutshell" series !) documentation is very annoying, very counterproductive.
Keep pushing this issue : " 1) We know how to read 2) Not everyone is childish or lazy enough to have to read often mediocre, lengthy, waste of time videos, as a substitute to a good, clean, procedure, or documentation.
This applies to a certain extent to GUI's: They are often great, but should not see as a panacea.
A short clean batch or command file (like the old, venerable... and so useful makefile) has many virtues, that no GUI can reproduce: simplicity, encapsulation, and great visibility, etc...
When a GUI needs a long documentation, you do know it is a failure: ideally it is 100% self-documenting !
A.G
39 • MX 21 (by Rick on 2021-11-08 14:45:33 GMT from United States)
Tested on Lenovo Thinkpads T450 and T420. Not stable What a disappointment! After using MX 17, 18 and 19 quite successfully, MX 21 is not user ready as seen from reviews here on Distrowatch! Excessive RAM useage, mediocre Nvidia support, freezing in live mode, some functions not working in live mode, tray on left of screen disappearing and having to log out and login again to restore it, couldn't even restart in live mode, etc. Need I go on? I had long term plans for using MX Linux. But once again, just like with Ubuntu from years past, my long term plans went down the drain with MX 21. Whatever happened to writing good code so that it "just works"?
40 • MX Review (by Landor on 2021-11-08 15:25:34 GMT from Canada)
I've learned over many years of reviews that if someone says a distribution is a joy to use it's something I personally wouldn't be interested in. Actually, I've found antiX to be a solid distribution to use without any quirks. Which due to their close relationship leads me to believe that MX is no different.
Not that I don't think someone shouldn't enjoy their distribution, I just find that normally what someone considers a joy is something I generally am no interested in using, and I'm sure they would feel the same about my choice, so it's all relative.
That said, I think I'll take a look at MX just for the sake of looking. Something I rarely do now. I'm glad that Jeff enjoyed using MX and others obviously do as well. I would be overly joyful if antiX one day came in a completely Libre flavour. :)
Keep Your Stick On The Ice...
Landor
41 • MX 21 review (by Otis on 2021-11-08 15:26:33 GMT from United States)
I could have written that review (well, not as eloquently, of course), as I've been running MX for a long time. Mepis caught my fancy back in those days, but I got distracted by PCLinuxOS for a while. I was VERY happy to see the AntiX and Mepis marriage and will stick with and continue to support MX for the foreseeable future.
Too much tweaking? lol
42 • Sheduled or not sheduled releases (by whenready on 2021-11-08 15:58:08 GMT from Hungary)
There is a good thing about shedules releases: it is plannable. And always there is the option to give some more days/weeks if not ready. I voted on when-ready schedule, but it's OK with predictable. I could say when you ar asking it, and now in this mood :)
It's a must to be finished, rather more than less.
I'm waiting for a ReatOS release, is there any inner news you can share?
(there is again a MakuluLinux (dev) release, the LinDoz edition)
43 • @39 seriously? (by foo2foo on 2021-11-08 16:09:19 GMT from United States)
Oh stop, you’re not actually helping yourself or others.
Literally thousands of people are using MX-21 without issue. If you have issues running it you should post in the MX Community, not rip on MX here. That’s what you are doing, ripping for the sake of ripping. You’re not providing constructive feedback or even useful feedback. You’re NOT going to persuade people from using MX and you’re definitely not helping yourself or anyone else solve problems you experienced with it either.
I tried the just released Fedora 35 which I had an issue with, instead of letting lose on DistroWatch anonymously, I found the issue and the solution. Then left a good review even though I don’t and won’t use Fedora ever.
Your statement out the DistroWatch Reviews is nonsense. There are more 8-10 scores than the pretty obvious just hate and fake reviews.
And your comment about “writing code” is just laughable.
People need to remember there is NO BEST Distro, just the one you like that serves your needs, and it helps no one to bash other Distroa just because it isn’t the one you use. That mindset goes against what FOSS is all about.
44 • Mepis is still alive (by eselma on 2021-11-08 16:26:26 GMT from Spain)
I entered Linux (at the last nineties) fiddling with RedHat. Then came Mandrake (who become Mandriva later) to help. A polished and easy OS with KDE, a great DE. But in 2006 appeared Mepis on my life. From then on, the things were different (for good) thanks to Warren Woodford and a great community still running.
When Mepis disappeared, MX took its place. Now, with the KDE/Plasma version over Debian Bullseye, I can revive these years. Yes, just works. Stable and powerful, what I need. I've kept the dark blue desktop to reminder me that gem.
45 • MX Linux (by David on 2021-11-08 16:26:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm looking for a new distro and MX is one of those that I considered and rejected. Admittedly the quality was good, but I do want detailed and readable documentation. MX with something like the Arch wiki — that would be worth having!
Incidentally, I get so tired of people grumbling about getting too much software and using that silly word "bloat". If you don't need it, just ignore it!
46 • fstab (by DaveW on 2021-11-08 16:27:01 GMT from United States)
I also have been using LABEL to specify partitions for years. If you are careful with your labelling, it is just as good as UUID's, and a lot more user friendly when looking at the fstab file.
Having said that, I can see that it is not something an install script can rely on. That means you have to manually edit the fstab file, so it is mostly for reasonably experienced linux users.
47 • documentation (by Jerry on 2021-11-08 16:43:44 GMT from United States)
@45: so a 200 page Users Manual is not detailed and readable enough for you, huh?
48 • Release Cycle Poll (by Andy Figueroa on 2021-11-08 16:52:00 GMT from United States)
My primary distribution for desktop and server is a rolling release for which I have a strong preference (Gentoo), but in non-rolling release distributions, I strongly prefer release-when-ready. Fixed cycle distributions make both unnecessary releases and releases with so few changes they could have been in-cycle upgrades.
That said, rolling release distributions tend to put more sysadmin burden on the user as they integrate major changes in upstream that sometimes affects dependencies and compatibilities across multiple components, especially when that is in the tool chain. A fixed release point model allows the distribution packagers to collect all those parts together into the release so the user doesn't have to deal with them individually.
Overall; polls should be more comprehensive.
49 • When ready or rolling (by Adam Drake on 2021-11-08 17:03:36 GMT from United States)
I chose “when ready”, because I’m still running Debian on my personal workstation/server. I probably would have chosen “rolling“ were it an option, because I’m on testing. I love running apt update and upgrade every day just to see what’s coming in.
50 • MX Linux (by Semiarticulae on 2021-11-08 17:11:55 GMT from United States)
MX on my newer hardware, antiX on my rusty stuff. Soooo good.
51 • Release schedule (by Friar Tux on 2021-11-08 17:27:36 GMT from Canada)
I prefer Long Term Service releases - 5 years or more. I have never had any luck with rolling releases. Usually, with rolling releases, after the second or third update/upgrade, something breaks, and you spend your time fidgeting with the OS/apps instead of getting work done. Also, with a LTS release you get to clean your system of bits and stuff that have accumulated over time, especially when you don't use a separate Home partition. Keeps the file system clean.
Regarding MXLinux, it's not for me. I had way to many issues with it, and found it quite confusing to work with. Also, I would disagree with @31 (crayola eater) that MX is good for Windows folks coming over to Linux. It was one of the ones I tested out when I was leaving Windows and it almost turned me off Linux. I found Linux Mint much, much better as it was quite Windows-like in function and looks. There really was nothing "to get used to doing the Linux way". I've used Mint to help folks switch and usually find they can't tell the difference. Not so with MX. (The ones that DO notice "it's not Windows" are the ones that like to fiddle behind the scenes - messing with the actual files.)
52 • @44 Ancient Linux (by GWBridge on 2021-11-08 18:15:41 GMT from United States)
I remember that it sometimes took days and a bucketful of 3.5" diskettes and a lot of command line instructions to install Mandrake and other distros. I remember the joy of finally seeing my PC boot up and show a graphical interface and an actual mouse arrow! A real EUREKA moment! On course there was next to nothing in terms of software apps to actually run...
53 • Kernel Efficiency (by Otis on 2021-11-08 18:19:13 GMT from United States)
I feel that the Linux kernel is inherently "more efficient," as in better, for the reason that it is open source, thus allowing a reflection of techs and users at large rather than that of just employees of a large corporation. Perhaps I'm a bit of a loyalist, a bit prejudicial with regard to that.
54 • MxBoot Repair (by Chris L on 2021-11-08 18:42:23 GMT from United States)
Hi I have hosed the Mx bootloader more than once trying out other distros because of Grub not liking them. Therefore no boot at all. So I use a usb stick with Super Grub2 Disk 2.04s1 to detect Mx and then go from there. Works every time, but I think I am done with experimenting.
55 • Ancient Linux? Ancient Computers :) (by Mike on 2021-11-08 18:51:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
@52 on the subject of Ancient Linux requiring a bucket full of floppies, so did Windows 95 and 98 if you weren't lucky enough to own what was then an expensive commodity, a CD-ROM drive. On top of that MS Office 95 was another bucket full.
The cannot read from disc 72 message was a primary cause of keyboard sales (replacements for rage related damage) going through the roof in the 90s.
I got and installed my first optical drive in 1997. Tomb Raider was the cause of many wasted hours when I should have been studying.
56 • From LMDE2 to MX Linux Mate (by Cray XMP on 2021-11-08 19:48:22 GMT from France)
Already accustomed to Mepis ans AntiX, my main PC was running LMDE2 when I learnt that LMDE3 would be systemd only.
So I kind of migrated happily to MX Linux. I installed the Mate desktop and customized it using some packages from Debbie (LMDE3) though. It is the best of both world that suits my taste.
57 • Potabi (by Jyrki on 2021-11-08 20:05:54 GMT from Czechia)
"The project intends to offer alternative designs and implementations which are not present in other UNIX-like operating systems"
Seriously? Apart from Lumina, that is more joke than desktop and apart from merchandising described above @18, what is so unique that it deserves some attention at all?
58 • MX crusaders (by ducks on 2021-11-08 20:42:57 GMT from New Zealand)
Wow, MX guys are here in force and vocal. Like Apple fanboys. No wonder the daily click score is sky high. It confirms to me that it IS artificially inflated all along. :) chill boys, its FOSS.
To be fair, I have looked at and used MX. I don't like the "toolset" that comes with Xfce - file manager, editor, image viewer. KDE used to be good, now Plasma broke many features.
I agree with the comments that say a distro must fit the user, there is no perfect one. Hence so many distros out there. I have found that point releases were Ok, but it got tiring to upgrade every 6 months. I need a stable, ongoing system.
So the whole Debian clan - goodbye and thanks for a decade of operation. That leaves almost nothing out there apart from Arch (rolling). Arch itself is not for me. At my age I have no patience to tickle a system to life - give me a nice installer, a decent GUI/DE and we're done in 20 minutes.
Manjaro fit that bill. I've also been using the much underrated RebornOS too of late. It again gets flak for printing not working - unlike MX / Mint / Manjaro, and the updates are 4x a day. At this point I am considering a return to Manjaro.
But which DE? I like most of what's in Cinnamon and it's toolset, MATE is a bit stale, KDE Plasma is broken and Xfce is far too light in the pants. Maybe System76 make the next great DE - I will be watching this closely.
59 • users commenting on DWW when their Distro is reviewed? Who would have thought? (by foo2foo on 2021-11-08 21:32:57 GMT from United States)
@58 You're comment about "fanboys" is just silly, MX users had their latest version reviewed for the first time in a long time, so of course they will comment as much as anyone else would. MX has a lot of users and I see ones here correcting or informing non-users, nothing wrong with that. Happens with all reviews, just because MX users are excited to get involved here isn't a bad thing, it actually shows that they have a active and engaging community. Which is a good sign.
There are lots of raving reviews by non-MX users about MX-21 online right now, just like the previous versions, must be artificial online reviews though right?
Probably those click bots now make website and YouTube reviews, artificial intelligence evolving, the one on ghacks looks like a bot wrote it. The comments here might not be actual users, could be the MX click bot.
Actually, now that I'm looking harder, Jeff Siegel + today's date + every 5th letter in the review, if jumbled up and lit on fire actually spells out "MX Linux Click Bot FTW".
MX should put this advanced click bot into the actual OS as a Personal Assistant since its so advanced, probably be a lot better than Alexa, Siri, Cortana, and Mycroft since it can also Deep Fake YouTube reviews.
Maybe the MX click bot is the beginning of the Matrix, that is probably actually where the letters in the name came from. But it can be stopped now that people are catching on and not fooled by the MX Personal Assistant.
60 • RR (by Tad Strange on 2021-11-08 21:34:36 GMT from Canada)
Your poll did not include rolling releases.
I prefer rolling, or distributions that have flawless upgrades between major versions.
Formatting and reinstalling should be an option, rather than the mandated method.
61 • Huh? "fanbois" ? (by Otis on 2021-11-08 21:46:20 GMT from United States)
@58 What immaturity still lurks around the Linux forums and Linux comments areas.
Just one MX user here, but like many (most?) Linux users I've got several Linux distros on my machines, MX being the daily driver but Manjaro a close second along with Artix and GhostBSD. I'm a fanboi of open source operating systems, not of any one distro but yes it's good to see MX reviewed here at DW and yes I'll come in and brag about it now and again; it's just too good to not do that.
62 • @58 ducks: (by dragonmouth on 2021-11-08 21:54:05 GMT from United States)
You are right. The MX fanboys spend their days just clicking and jacking up the numbers because they have nothing better to do.
Did you ever consider that users might just actually like MX? Just like those that swear by Arch or Mint or Ubuntu or any other distro that they learned and grown to love.
" At this point I am considering a return to Manjaro."
Good luck. Soon you'll be complaining about it. That fanboys are artificially inflating the popularity numbers.
63 • MX & video tutorials (by Moat on 2021-11-09 02:17:17 GMT from United States)
I've used MX in the past (v18-ish) and indeed thought it was excellent - great to see the devs are seemingly continuing that tradition of Quality! :)
I do agree with some other's relatively minor criticisms above, though, regarding MX's (over?)emphasis on video tutorials (which tend to be a bit "wordy", to boot)... and even their written documentation tends to be too scattered, drawn-out and confusing, as well.
As someone above pointed out, getting my head around and setting up MX's persistence on a USB flash drive was a PITA - and that was after years of using Puppy and (the utterly fantastic!) DebianDogs - both of which's USB persistence *I* found much more straightforward to set up. Others may disagree - YMMV.
A great distro, though - IMHO, right up there with Mint, Manjaro, 'buntus.
As far as the overall "polish" of the Xfce desktop - or seeming lack thereof - the elephant in the room that no one either wants to mention or simply doesn't understand, is the cancer that Gnome development (the GTK underpinnings, in particular) has inflicted on the Linux DE world over the past 6 yrs or so. So many DE's were built and polished upon the GTK toolkit (maybe even the majority...?) when Gnome devs arbitrarily decided to go their own, inconsiderate and arrogant path in re-writing the entire GTK library - stripping out all legacy (GTK2) code - breaking literally dozens of DEs and hundreds of GTK themes in the process. And all of these Desktops have been struggling to play catch-up ever since (and still are).
Sure, there are bucketfuls of GTK3x/4x themes on Gnome-look.org & Xfce-look.org - but many/most are broken, the remainder works in progress. And one reason so many GTK themes are now these "flat", un-inspired eyesores is that creating themes based on the new GTK code (CSS) is an order of magnitude more complex/difficult than earlier in GTK's history... something Material Design Flat, without pleasant, functional details is difficult enough (so much so, that an entire language - SASS - has been written to *write/modify* these newer GTK themes).
So basically, Xfce often largely looks like cr@p due to closed-minded upstream GTK development - and has set Linux back ~10 years, IMHO. Far more damaging than systemd and Pulse Audio. Remember the "Year of the Linux Desktop"?? GTK development ruined any chance of that happening.
Otherwise, Xfce is a stellar desktop environment, IMO - very flexible/tweakable/functional without being too resource-heavy or bloated. My fav DE overall, I think...
64 • Project lead replies (by Kai Lyons on 2021-11-09 02:19:07 GMT from United States)
@18: I thank you for your interest, actually the shop was a complete accident tho. We are mostly focusing on our work.
@57: First, it's not Linux. Second we are distancing ourselves from BSD branding. Third, we are building custom API's to manage the system, to remove dependency from libraries and the shell. Third, we will be implementing a more simple, custom package manager. Actually, our desktop environment is going to be the most boring bit, and it's going to move from pure Lumina to a custom Lumina fork (later Lumina rewrite) called Ayras (moving from Qt to ImGui to remove Qt as a system required default for a permissive-licensed alternative). We also avoid GPL software, and will also be offering a mobile edition and server edition. If you still think it's not special, that's fine.
65 • Loud noises! (by Mike on 2021-11-09 02:20:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
That escalated fast. All the above mentioned distributions have their merits and all have their zealots and haters in equal measure too.
Such pettiness and bickering within the Linux community is completely counter productive though.
66 • Poll (by Jesse on 2021-11-09 02:56:56 GMT from Canada)
@60: >> "Your poll did not include rolling releases."
I don't see why you would think that. Rolling release distributions have release cycles too. Some have regular, fixed releases (usually monthly or quarterly) and others release new media snapshots when they hit milestones or when new features are ready. It's the exact same approach as fixed releases. There isn't anything particularly different in the way rolling release scheduling is handled so it doesn't require a special poll option.
67 • redirect you hate guys (by ducks on 2021-11-09 04:25:55 GMT from New Zealand)
I am not against MX, and I think it is good to see it reviewed. Anyway, my big beef at the moment is choice of DE. Xfce just does not do it for me, it may do it for you, fine. Not immaturity here, just seeing people chase eyecandy instead of actual useful functionality, or get hung up about systemd. Maybe my comment about inflated clicks hit a nerve? Why else would there be such a sharp call for crucifixion? Anyway...This time around MX has put in some hard miles - great. It all moves Linux forward. Bury the hatchets, or save them for the Blue Screen OS.
68 • @64 (by always curious about FOSS on 2021-11-09 06:05:28 GMT from Germany)
Hello Kai,
thank you for your answer.
Go on. Do your way.
I really thuoght about buying the Hood, but there is too much mess with the costums on the way from USA to Germany.
Good luck for you.
69 • ducks, brother printer/scanner (by dave on 2021-11-09 06:29:47 GMT from United States)
Way to backpedal after sticking your foot in your mouth. Maybe don't make derogatory exaggerations about something so mundane and people won't 'crucify' you for it. When a clown tells bad jokes, he should expect to be hit with rotten fruit.
"Not immaturity here, just seeing people chase eyecandy instead of actual useful functionality, or get hung up about systemd."
lolwut?? Xfce is easily the most bland (and most flexible) of the 3 major DEs. How is it 'eyecandy'?? I'm always confused how people will poopoo on a distro because of the DE when 90% of the time, it's one of the easiest things to change and/or reconfigure. I wonder what you consider to be 'functional'. Xfce is probably the most predictable and intuitive DE.
Getting 'hung up' about systemd is a 2 way street. You sound sort of hung up on the fact that so many people are avoiding it. Seems kinda strange, since MX is one of the only distributions that allows users to easily switch between systemd and sysvinit.. that point should earn your approval.
I've been using MX for a few years, but I tend to prefer antiX or Devuan. The main things I dislike about MX are the default Xfce panel layout and pulseaudio.. one takes seconds to change, the other takes minutes. I have been using Xfce for many years and if I'm not using something like IceWM, I'm using Xfce.. does that make me an Xfce fanboy?
@33 @36 I too experienced this with MX-- printer works automatically, but scanner needs manual intervention and afterward, pukes out a couple lines of junk during boot. But it does work.
70 • @69 Clarification to @36 Brother printer and MX (by Hoos on 2021-11-09 07:09:00 GMT from Singapore)
There was a typo/omission in @36:
MX21 - "In MX21, I was pleasantly surprised to see both printer and SCANNER automatically detected without any installation."
So currently my Brother MFC prints and scans out of the box without driver installation. I didn't need to install scanner driver at all.
Obviously I can only speak about my own experience, but in my case, Brother support has been progressively better the last 2 releases. Other people's experiences may vary.
But even without auto detection, the Brother drivers have generally worked fine for various Linux distros including MX, so overall I don't have issues with Brother's Linux compatibility whether I have to install drivers or not.
71 • mx21 (by papapito on 2021-11-09 08:32:51 GMT from Australia)
Just gave the fluxbox version a run and it's pretty darn good. I am more kde based and I am also very much a fan of only really having what I need/use installed. Is there a similar MX installer/script/option for special cases like me? Like how Arch allows you to pick almost everything with archinstall and Fedora Everything allows you to trawl through all the things you want but not the things you dont.
I really enjoy how snappy the fluxbox version feels but I have gotten used to how KDE does it's thing.
Also mentioned above, someone complaining about video's/youtube/etc being used for explanations or tutorials... text doesn't translate into every language or for every learner, video is much more user friendly as even if you don't understand what they are saying, you can often follow along with a GOOD* tutorial on mute.
*ymmv
72 • @63, gnome (by postertom on 2021-11-09 08:53:23 GMT from United States)
My dear Moat, #63,
Did you really intend to say that Gnome development *inflicted a cancer* on the Linux DE world?
Do you actually believe that the Gnome developers are *arbitrary, inconsiderate, & arrogant*?
Can you assert with confidence that GTK3x/4x themes are *mostly broken* or at least need some work to be considered finished?
Your language might be considered inflammatory but basically you speak truth.
73 • MX 21 XFCE and Q4OS 4.6 KDE - both based on Debian 11 (by 1-DOT.com on 2021-11-09 08:53:46 GMT from United States)
MX (xfce) has been my daily distro for a long time. However, for printing to a old USB-only Canon laser printer, Q4OS 4.6 KDE works out-of-the-box. Unfortunately, unlike some older MX versions, MX 21 does not. Both are great Debian 11 distros. MX has more tools but Q4OS is faster and uses less RAM. I tend to flip back and forth between MX and Q4OS whenever one does something better than the other that I find more useful at the moment.
74 • @#16 Opensuse (by Archdevil on 2021-11-09 12:04:05 GMT from Netherlands)
I loved Opensuse, until a new release failed to work with my soundcard. A big plop everytime sound started. Searched the Forum, placed a post searching for help there, searched the internet. No solution. So I left. Been using Solus for a few years now. Far less packages, but it works for me.
75 • Release model (by uselessmore999 on 2021-11-09 12:46:52 GMT from Germany)
Just do it like OpenBSD.
76 • Boot Repair (by Rick on 2021-11-09 13:40:32 GMT from United States)
I normally use 3 Lenovo Thinkpads but right now due to the recent deaths of my T61 and T400 I am down to 2 until I save up enough to purchase a newer Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell Latitude through eBay. I have a production machine T450 and a Test/Media one T420. I use both Boot Repair and Super Grub2 disk often while testing and wanting to keep my boot partition record the same after testing a new distro which writes a new boot record. Those two packages work wonders and are not just for newbies who "hit the wrong button".
77 • @68 (by Kai Lyons on 2021-11-09 13:43:32 GMT from United States)
Yeah, I get that. If you can't buy a shirt, no big deal. Support for the project in general is important, even if it is just verbal/typed. Thank you.
78 • Rolling (yet stable) release method (by Andy Prough on 2021-11-09 14:49:37 GMT from Switzerland)
I like the release method chosen by Void best - rolling, yet stable. I think it's a great improvement over the Debian release method, in that you don't have to wait for 2+ years for some of your core components to update. But you also don't have to deal with the Arch rolling release problem of a constant stream of bleeding edge packages that don't always work well together.
The worst method is the one chosen by Ubuntu and Fedora - having to upgrade your entire system every six months or so and reconfigure everything to work the way you like it.
79 • Curious me... (by Friar Tux on 2021-11-09 16:50:22 GMT from Canada)
@78 (Andy), I'm curious why you think Ubuntu has the worst release method because of their 6 month schedule? I use the LTS version (5 years or more). Those that use the 6 month version actually WANT to upgrade every 6 months. (I don't so I use something longer term).
As for the rolling release, I have not yet found a rolling-release-distro that does NOT break after a second or third update/upgrade. To me, that's not a stable distro. Stable, to me, means installing a distro and never having to mess with it for ANY reason. Presently, I'm using Linux Mint/Cinnamon, which I contend is THE most stable distro I have tested in the last five years. I have not had to fiddle under the Mint hood since I installed it 5 years ago. THAT, to me, is stable. Can't say that for any of the other distros out there - yet. (Kudos to Clem and gang for that great job!)
80 • @79 - Curious (by Andy Prough on 2021-11-09 17:13:26 GMT from Switzerland)
>"I'm curious why you think Ubuntu has the worst release method because of their 6 month schedule? I use the LTS version (5 years or more)."
Seems like if you liked the 6 month release schedule, you would use the 6 month release schedule. Maybe you and I are in agreement? I can't tell by your wording.
>"As for the rolling release, I have not yet found a rolling-release-distro that does NOT break after a second or third update/upgrade."
I think we are basically in agreement. Modern Arch systems don't necessarily break every 2nd or 3rd update, but they do introduce problems with bleeding edge packages that have regressions or really aren't production ready. I did point out that I prefer the Void method of rolling release - rolling yet stable. More like a "gently rolling" release.
81 • things (by Tad Strange on 2021-11-09 18:06:45 GMT from Canada)
@37 Thanks for that. Kolourpaint looks decent. I've been using Pinta, as it is much like Paint.NET, which was my program of choice in Windows land.
I never have liked Gimp, because I don't need probably 94% of what it can do and therefore just get confused by the complexity of it.
That being said I don't care whether it, or other application suites, get bundled either. Software sitting cold on a drive isn't my definition of Bloat. Things I don't want/need actively taking up resources - cycles, I/O operations, memory bandwidth - things that will drag down performance; that's bloat.
Anyway, for some MX talk, because everyone is talking MX. I've got MX21 KDE on an older laptop, and it seems to be working fine. I did have to disable touchpad scrolling because it made the touchpad next to completely unusable (I thought the software was broken, it was so bad).
It was fun even getting to that setting without having an external mouse - lol
Speaking of KDE/Plasma. I am always seeing comments about how it is broken, or otherwise made out to be unusable.
I'm curious as to what aspects are causing issues. Maybe I'm just a vanilla user who doesn't do much other than change a theme default or turn off energy saving or some of the Windows Aero-ish features that I hate, but I've never run into anything remotely like a showstopper with the DE. It just sits there doing it's thing.
I've tried the other major DEs and none really grew on me, except possibly MATE, but only with the Redmond settings defined in the tweak menu of Mate-buntu. (I'd like to know how to export/import those settings...)
82 • fixed vs ready (by eganonoa on 2021-11-09 19:37:20 GMT from Netherlands)
Debian is the best balance here for me. It is sort of fixed, in that there is a general cadence of a major upgrade every two years or so (at least since Sarge), but within that cadence they don't release till ready. That gives enough predictability, so that you know something is coming soon enough and you can move away from aging packages, while not saddling you with something super-buggy where the real release is the next point release like with the distros that come out ever 6 or 9 months (or indeed the rolling release distros). It's a key reason, I think, why so many distros are based on Debian. It allows you to plan without becoming a victim of over-rigid planning.
83 • @82 Agreed (by Adam Drake on 2021-11-09 20:15:38 GMT from United States)
And Debian testing is rolling as well as very stable. I learned about the vmrs (Virtual Richard M. Stallman) program last night and ran it before commenting out contrib and non-free last night. It’s a good feeling!
84 • @81 • things (by Tad Strange from Canada) (by whoKnows on 2021-11-10 07:06:24 GMT from Switzerland)
It seems like you would be someone who actually needs Nomacs.
https://www.fosslicious.com/2020/01/nomacs-cool-image-viewer-application.html
85 • @79 Friar Tux: (by dragonmouth on 2021-11-10 12:31:08 GMT from United States)
Not to contradict your experiences with rolling releases but I have been using rolling release PCLinuxOS for over 5 years. In all that time, I've never had one update break anything. PCLOS publishes updates at least 3-4 times a week. for the past week or two, there has been an update every day.
Yes, my case is only anecdotal evidence but so is yours. Maybe I just don't stress my system hard enough to make it fail or at least show cracks.
86 • GTK's damage... (by Moat on 2021-11-10 13:26:05 GMT from United States)
@postertom #72 ;
I apologize if what I've stated may seem inflammatory, but I stand by it. I'm just a 10 yr. Linux hobbiest/tinkerer who's spent a great deal of that time "fixing" what I see as fundamental, ergonomically/visually/functionally-related flaws in GTK theming - only to have my efforts dashed/broken, time and time again, by seemingly unnecessary upstream changes in GTK. And in researching the why's and how's behind those changes, I've come to find many in the "formal" Linux community had/have the same concerns and complaints - only to be flippantly brushed off by any rare Gnome devs willing to spend (waste) their time responding.
I've always viewed Linux as having *huge* potential towards gaining personal desktop acceptance, but amongst plenty of development-related setbacks over the years, I consider those caused by seemingly wayward, closed-door GTK development to have been by far the most damaging to that potential progress.
Looks count, and the devil is in the details. Many brush off appearance as nothing but "eye candy" (and granted - much of it *is*)... but carefully-applied visual details can greatly increase natural workflow and efficiency - making a far more pleasant, intuitive, comfortable and swift interaction with the guts of the OS, beneath.
But many are unable to see the forest through the trees, it seems...
Just MHO, FWIW.
87 • MX Linux; antiX (by R. Cain on 2021-11-10 15:11:20 GMT from United States)
I've been following MX-Linux since rev 16, when it overtook Mint 18 as DW's 'number one distro".
Since then, MX has gone from a (≈) 1100 MB download to ≈ 1800 MB (and, no; I am NOT talking about the 2.5 GB KDE Plasma version); probably mostly good, as attested to by the individual who had NO problems with the latest MX recognizing his printer and scanner immediately. BUT...
If I do 'bite the bullet' and go the MX route, it'll be with the best they ever made: MX Continuum (might 'bump' up to the next version(s)); the MX team have never equaled that one for its elegance, and probably never will. Never ever.
...Or the latest antiX---what MX used to be.
(and...please "can" all of your comments regarding how backwards someone---who will NOT run the latest, greatest, fastest, most-feature-filled-version of a distro---must be. Save those for someone who doesn't know any better)
**************************************
"MX Linux MX-18 & 10-year-old EeePC netbook - Fantastic"
"...This is a true old-device Linux, and this is where it shines when the rest don't even dare step out into the sunlight. And there are no compromises. The frugality does not impact usability in any way. You still get great looks, excellent modern software, and solid hardware compatibility. Plus, of course, blazing nimble for a 10-year relic...
MX Linux MX-18.1 Continuum has restored life to my netbook. It runs beautifully fast, it's elegant, loaded with real, practical goodies. The tremendous part is really the speed...
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/eeepc-mx-linux.html
88 • @84 (by Tad Strange on 2021-11-10 15:37:56 GMT from Canada)
Nomacs looks like a pretty decent viewer and light duty editor.
And they have a Windows version too, I see.
Cheers
89 • Release schedules (by Robert on 2021-11-10 16:36:15 GMT from United States)
I prefer rolling releases, so went with no preference.
Between the other options, both have merit. Just depends on whether you target specific features being ready or being predictable.
Both have things to watch out for as well. A fixed schedule needs to be responsible about cutting things that aren't ready, or at least communicating what's good and what isn't. Whereas when-ready releases need to be careful of scope and feature creep, or simple overambition that can stretch out development times too much.
90 • MX (by missTell on 2021-11-10 18:08:46 GMT from Switzerland)
The problem with MX-Linux is just that it has no concept whatsoever.
Why exactly 'Fluxbox edition'? To show what they can't?
Made by free-timers for some distro-hoppers?
Just as Moat (@86) said: " [...] the devil is in the details." Ugly (not in a sense of 'design', but 'usability') and bad preconfigured. Plus, it feels 1995. In a bad way.
Design can't be good -- it's Fluxbox, but even something bad, one can make even worse. And then you get Tint 2 replacing the original dock, and "eye-cancer design". Was it Papirus or Faenza? Application icons and system icons, all same size? What about spacing?
https://ibb.co/0fSVmRL
https://ibb.co/D1qGHQX
Design can't be good -- it's Xfce and I appreciate the guys and gals at MX for trying, but it's so much easier to pick up Fedora Gnome and IceWM, if one needs to save some RAM or get it more responsive, then to fix something what someone else screwed. Transparent Terminal? Clock size? "App Store" or "Synappplist"?
https://ibb.co/5sc8r64
https://ibb.co/zrkYkLT
It would be actually much quicker to pick up the raw, vanilla Debian (server) and make it usable, than to remove all the junk and redesign MX. If one wants something Debian at all.
I rather leave it to those who are happy with it ...
https://ibb.co/xCRWmd6
https://ibb.co/CP9GVTB
I'd rather install Red Hat (clone) to someone who wants Linux. Looks better and no more re-install. Ever.
91 • Springdale (by missTell on 2021-11-10 18:13:31 GMT from Switzerland)
* Uploaded the wrong screenshot. :(
https://ibb.co/sHVB4YC
https://ibb.co/9wdvxwr
92 • MX (by Fernando on 2021-11-10 18:59:49 GMT from Brazil)
Too many adjetives, bad (unique? last?) marketing arguments for a fragile product.
(Its position in the "ranking" : DW tools under suspition.)
93 • Release Schedules (by No One on 2021-11-10 19:45:18 GMT from United States)
A predetermined release schedule is preferred.
Single User systems are plenty but organizations and business would need a stable release schedule to work out bugs and make sure the next version will be compatible with equipment.
Even single users would benefit from such a schedule so that they can get support for hardware.
As people run their own enterprises from home or a side business, they too can benefit from a stable and dedicated schedule. It would be important that hardware vendors also cooperate with such a schedule to provide better support.
Remember most budgets are set by October, test in the last quarter and purchase in the new coming year.
94 • 90 MX by missTell (by Andy Figueroa on 2021-11-10 20:25:42 GMT from United States)
Re: #90 by missTell about MX
Default desktop configurations are a matter of taste. When you get more experience, you 'll learn that you can change the look and feel with just a few clicks. And, if you have no use for FluxBox, why are you trying it out? You are wasting electrons showing off.
Nice of you to speed through. Don't let the door hit your behind on the way out.
95 • and now the incoherent trolls chime in (by foo2foo on 2021-11-11 03:59:20 GMT from United States)
@90 and @92 MX Linux comes with spelling and grammar checking tools, they would be very useful for you when you write.
MX Linux has been around a long time now, with a strong established user base, and it’s because what you said is complete nonsense.
Half of what you posted is barely coherent, just frantic trolling to try and stop people from even trying it. But to what end? Sharing your opinion is one thing, but it’s not like comments here would stop people from trying any Linux Distro they want to, let alone one that continues to get good reviews.
DiatroWatch reviews are fair, honest, and unbiased. That’s why people read and trust them. If some random comment is 100% negative and barely makes any sense, do you think people will listen to the comment after they read the DistroWatch review? Nope.
Some people want Xfce or Fluxbox. They don’t care what you have to say, that is what they want. The is the beauty of GNU/Linux and FOSS, anyone can use whatever they want, even if what they want will give them “eye-cancer”.
And yes, in MX Linux you can have transparent terminals, change the clock sizes, and 3 different ways to install apps (MX Package Installer, Synaptic, and Discover). Someone on the forums even had luck using Gnome Software Store.
@94 I think a better way of saying that would be “they were wasting electrons TRYING to show off”? :P
96 • MX review (by whoKnows on 2021-11-11 08:56:26 GMT from Switzerland)
However, that lack of concept is pretty obvious and no positive review can help it. The same goes for the design. All to be seen from the screenshots above.
Fluxbox version uses three different icon types, and the icons on the task bar have wrong padding and sizes.
Speaking of task bar, task bar is on the left side in Xfce, at the bottom in KDE, and at the bottom, plus some dock at the left in Fluxbox. This is a no-concept concept.
97 • Speaking of DE's... (by Friar Tux on 2021-11-11 15:54:08 GMT from Canada)
Haha... speaking of DE's, I use Cinnamon. One of the things I appreciate about Cinnamon is all the Panel Apps. Yesterday, it was nice and sunny, the grass was green, but my weather app claimed it was going to snow. So I decided to go outside to "winterize" the back yard. This morning I woke up to two inches of snow with the wind blow it about in drifts. Gotta love those Panel Apps.
98 • Different DEs can have different layouts (by foo2foo on 2021-11-11 16:51:03 GMT from United States)
@96 posting under different names doesn’t help your comments have any more merit.
Different DEs can have different layouts, this is typical, so your complaints about panel locations under MX Linux meaning there is no concept is just nonsense.
You’re not even using the word “concept” properly.
Right now if you load KDE, Xfce, Gnome, Fluxbox, etc, etc on any Distro the DE layout will be different. That is the concept of the DE, Distros can choose to modify that to what they and their users want.
Does Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu have “concept” because their DE layouts are different?
How about Fedora Gnome vs Fedora KDE? Fedora has “no concept”?
If you have a problem with that, then complain about DEs, not the Distros that use different DEs. Because then this whole “no concept” complaint exists for ALL Distros.
You don’t like MX Linux, we all get that, the people who like MX Linux don’t really care what you like or don’t like.
99 • Wrong (by missTell on 2021-11-11 18:13:25 GMT from Switzerland)
Oh, foo2foo foo ...
I am actually not posting under different names, but that does still doesn't make you more qualified to talk about the design or the concept, since you obviously didn't understand any of the written text above. Or, you just didn't read any -- which doesn't make it any better.
The wrong padding on Fluxbox task bar and the 3 different icon types is wrong -- your unqualified opinion here or there.
Example task bar clock: one is usable, the other one not.
https://ibb.co/511wbzg
https://ibb.co/G2Kcp5P
Figure out why.
100 • Really? (by foo2foo on 2021-11-11 18:39:45 GMT from United States)
@99 so you and “whoKnows” are not the same person incorrectly talking about “concepts”? Maybe there is just two different people incorrectly rambling about the same exact things the same exact way.
Everything you’ve said has been squashed and so now you keep trying to nitpick? Don’t like the clock or panel, change it, or don’t use it. No one really cares. MX Linux users will still continue to use their favorite Distro.
I got better things to do with my time than go back and forth with you on DW comments of all things.
Enjoy your hate for MX Linux, you’re making a difference in the world of FOSS and Linux.
101 • Yes, really! (by missTell on 2021-11-11 18:50:30 GMT from Switzerland)
If you read my writing and your responses, there is only foo2foo who is squashed.
Why explaining you more, when you didn't even understand one single example??
We had the same thing a couple of years ago, and I explained it much more thoroughly on MX ... 17? Or 18? Not much improved since.
The facts are not hate, but we know that no arguments help against religion.
Enjoy your MX religion and stay blind!
102 • MX (by DTB on 2021-11-11 19:16:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've been using MX as my main Linux distro since a positive review on Distrowatch a couple or three years ago.
Used it when I remote worked before retiring. Was flawless.
It just works on my hardware (Athlon II), which I accept may not be true for all. All of my internal and external devices (printer, scanner) work out of the box.
Solid distribution. I like the simplicity of the xfce desktop.
I also run Solus (xfce) and Manjaro (also xfce) and Windows 10 on the same hardware.
Like both of the Linux distos, but trust MX for it's abilities and stability.
Used to run Mint Cinnamon on an I5 Lenovo laptop and loved it, but find MX xfce snappier on my desktop (again potentially due to my ageing desktop hardware)
103 • MX (by Former on 2021-11-12 01:41:52 GMT from United States)
@27 MX does just works, so why is boot repair needed. Because users like me, sometimes maybe experimenting too much, especially with multi boots etc, can get into trouble. Than MX Tools such as Boot repair are life savers.
Also not to forget in my opinion their best tool, MX Snapshoot, which helps you save your complete installed system into install-able ISO file. You can then have exact copy of your system with all your settings, emails, bookmarks, installed programs, everything as live USB stick or you can install it on another, different computer.
Review was meh. Clearly from someone who don't know MX Linux. Or reviewer would point out one excellent install feature, lacking at most other Linux distributions. If you installing MX over the old installation and your home is part of /root, so home is not on separate partition, you can choose at install, to preserve home. because of this, it is best to keep home on the same partition and rather have separate data partition.
MX offer so much more, than anything else I tried. I have installed three Linux distributions, Manjaro, Endeavour and MX. MX is my main. I don't really know why I have other two, curiosity probably.
104 • @101 --I need some help, please, (by R. Cain on 2021-11-12 06:03:34 GMT from United States)
I think you may have some valid points, but I am struggling, somewhat, to understand. There are two things you can do to clarify this situation for me---
1) in @101 you say, "...We had the same thing a couple of years ago, and I explained it much more thoroughly on MX ... 17? Or 18?...".
If you would kindly provide the references (only the web addresses; the URLs---are needed) to these explanations, I'm certain this might provide the clarification I'm seeking.
2) Your comments on the following two articles would help immensely in helping me understand your position regarding MX-Linux:
"Best Linux distro - The last five years - 2016-2020"
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/best-distro-2016-2020.html
and
"Best Linux distro - The last decade - 2011-2020"
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/best-distro-2011-2020.html
Thank you for taking the time to help make this situation more understandable for me.
105 • At R. Cain / Part 1 (by missTell on 2021-11-12 12:52:23 GMT from Switzerland)
Let's not mix apples and oranges, please.
Answering you this question properly, would take me at least a couple of weeks time, as I would need a couple of proofs (with links) per sentence, so you'll have to trust me on my word. Sorry for that.
All DistroWatch Weekly's are archived, but finding the right issue ... I would have to go through each week's issue from the last 4 ~ 5 years, to find those writings. Just as you could. Worth it?
Dedoimedo (the grandfather and the bear, if you care) ... is a kinda mixed bag.
I was reading most of his articles in the past couple of years, and I am taking some parts of it with a reserve. Most of his writings are excellent, but there are some issues too. First, his view changed over time and second, on some points, he is mixing and matching things that are his 'personal need' with things that are 'public need'. He clearly tries to think of 'setup for noobs', but as a nerd, suddenly praises some nerdy stuff.
Sometimes he's also nitpicking on some stuff which is not to his liking, even if that stuff is actually only his own problem. That's fine. It is his review, and it is his point of view. However, some things I am taking with reserve and can't take seriously.
For example, "no task manager upon right click on task bar" in Windows 11, which was there in Windows 10. One click on the start menu icon, on the task bar, will have the task manager button. Tiny Show Desktop icon on the far left of Windows 10 / 11 task bar. He makes his own button. Why not, but it doesn't make much sense if one complains how one has to move the mouse pointer to the far bottom right corner. Even if one made 8 buttons, in all 4 corners and middle screens, Show Desktop button would always be in a wrong position, and one would still always have to chase the button. Super + H or Super + D is faster. Or the black & white font ... It depends on the screen. No way for a designer to make it properly. Ever. That black & white comes from the "paper age", but "paper-white" is not a backlit screen-white. One of the first things to learn on every (web or GUI) design school is: you need high contrast and NEVER use black font on white background. Not that you should ever try to produce "gray-on-gray-modern-flat" ...
"Best Distro" technically doesn't mean that (any) one distro is / was good -- it can also mean that out of 100 broken ones, one was a bit better -- this is not a judgment, just a language caveat.
Also, if you carefully read his (specifically) MX articles, he also never praised MX design and always changed the default look.
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-19-2-kde.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-15.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-16.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-17-lenovo.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-18-lenovo.html
MX Linux ... Concept & Design ...
MX Linux is not bad in a sense of "it just works". I also never claimed that. But MX Linux misses a "final polish" -- which makes the difference between the "product" and "Made by amateurs".
As of "it just works", it would be a tragic if it wouldn't work. One takes a solid Debian, adds some goodies which Debian is missing for "religious reasons" and it should work better than the original.
106 • At R. Cain / Part 2 (by missTell on 2021-11-12 12:53:14 GMT from Switzerland)
But, "it just works" is not yet a finished product. Compare Apple, Gnome, Microsoft and Canonical with MX. It is about "XYZ for the human beings". The idea behind proper set of defaults is to improve the usability for technically less skilled people, which is the waste majority of the humanity, and let the 2 % of nerds customize the stuff to their liking. Design is a science, not a matter of personal preference. One has to say to people what is good for them, not to ask them what they want. They don't know it. Most people use what they get, and the most users will not go to some website and ask for this or that feature or behavior, but only those 2 % of nerds will do it. There are usability standards and standards on how one workplace must look in many countries and there are good reasons behind "why so, and not different".
foo2foo mentioned the concept and "change it, if you don't like it". The second one I just explained -- most users do not care for computers, they do not care for the operating system, they do not know how to change the defaults, and they do not want to learn it. They want to open the application, do what they need to do, and shut the thing down, until they need it again.
Concept ... Ubuntu has a concept. XYZbuntu's are not Canonical. They are recognized and supported communities, but not Ubuntu. Fedora has a concept, albeit a different one. Like Debian, their concept is "plain" or "vanilla" whatever ... Gnome, KDE, Mate, Xfce ... They let the original DE configurations be.
MX is different. They implement some DE and they "improve" it. They make changes on KDE, they reconfigure XFCE defaults, and they completely rework Fluxbox. Will say -- they have to make a concept and be consistent.
To be fair, yes, even they did some small progress over the years, but at this speed, it'll take a decade or two more, until it becomes a product.
For the end, a few screenshots without further comments ...
Why once task bar at the bottom, once on the left and then at bottom and left? Just as one single example out of many ...
https://ibb.co/G2Kcp5P
https://ibb.co/511wbzg
https://ibb.co/YhD7Tbr
https://ibb.co/DwnvR3V
https://ibb.co/VL81JcC
If I had a power to decide over future MX, I'd say: decide on one DE and do it properly. Who's gonna use Fluxbox and why?? Nostalgia is not a reason. Original Flux looks a whole lot different. Good looks? Original probably looks better too. Problem with resources? Well ... as you can see on the screenshots in one of my previous posts, Springdale 8.4 (Rad Hat / old Gnome3 and one of the RAM-hungriest OS's), uses much less resources after installing additional IceWM, and it looks far, far better.
For someone like MX, with little financial and time resources, it would make much more sense to concentrate only on one DE and make it in two versions: one basic edition for the majority of "human beings" and one "nerdy edition" with all those "tools and helpers" and "live whatever's". It would save a lot of work, and it would sooner become a product.
107 • only MX Linux users important, critic is not important (by Phil Sakee on 2021-11-12 15:04:41 GMT from United States)
I use MX Linux on my laptop and desktop since MX Linux 17. When I first try MX Linux, the vertical panel doesn't make sense to me. I use MX Tweak to change panel very easy to bottom, but using vertical more it makes a lot of sense, so I use now. On my small laptop screen it is very good because it take up less space for my applications. Is very good design.
MX Linux make different versions because a lot MX Linux users ask for them. MX Linux does what MX Linux users want, not what critic want. I ask for application in MX Linux and they make the same day, application NOT in Ubuntu Linux, Mint Linux, and Fedora Linux, but MX Linux gives me. MX Linux users ask for theme change, MX Linux give. MX Linux users are happy, this matters to MX Linux.
Above is just critic talking, and do nothing, but not think what is important. MX Linux users are important and have what they want, this is all that matters to MX Linux.
108 • @105 @106 (by R. Cain on 2021-11-12 16:25:26 GMT from United States)
Thank you for your rapid response...except, of course, not utilizing the option offered to you which would have resulted in a very economical way of providing easy proof of all that you contend here; to wit:
“...If you would kindly provide the references (only the web addresses; the URLs---are needed) to these explanations...”
Without further elaboration on the point, it is mystifying that you cannot provide the web addresses of something which you wrote, which you claim to have authored; and yet should, beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove the points you are trying to make here...but you can provide “screenshots” (of something, or somethings) which have no associated explanations attached to them.
You should know that one of the most transparent of reasons which are offered for not doing something is “...I don’t have time...”; or “...that would take too long...”.
...and I simply HAVE to ask this (cf. @105 :"Let's not mix apples and oranges, please..."):
precisely WHO would you have us think is mixing apples and oranges here?
“If you need something done in a hurry, ask a busy man to do it. The other kind doesn’t have the time."---anon
109 • "no-concept" MX (by Otis on 2021-11-12 16:53:18 GMT from United States)
@96 There's a concept. Perhaps not detectable to some. Perhaps a more detectable concept in a Linux distro for some would be Garuda. Many others with visceral concepts to choose from.
Meanwhile the MX concept of end to end functionality no matter the wm (or init) is quite appealing to many users.
110 • Sorry but ... :) (by missTell on 2021-11-12 17:24:14 GMT from Switzerland)
@R. Cain
Can not AND HAVE NO NEED TO ... one screenshot is enough.
Kinda easy: "Apples and oranges" == "Best Linux distro" vs. "Unpolished"
Go through 5 years x 52 weeks issues, for an answer in some irrelevant info-thread on LINUX???
Why in heaven and hell I would have links ready to copy and paste on such irrelevant topic like MX?
Pay me and I'll fix it. You wanna search for some old links? Look for them.
YOU need them, not me. Anybody can see what's on screenshots.
Don't believe? Install the best distro and try it yourself. 😉
Not for real????? 😀 😃 😄 😁 😆 😅 😂 🤣 🥲
111 • End to End == Dead End? (by missTell on 2021-11-12 17:31:53 GMT from Switzerland)
@Otis
That's truth ... a concept which is a mystery even for the distro makers. 😉
No hate here, only the knowledge, experience and healthy eyes.
P.S.
Don't care for Garuda. More for Gouda (cheese). 😉
Fedora, RHEL, Ubuntu and of course, Apple / Mac and Windows.
The rest can disappear tomorrow and evtl. some 2 % might miss it ... if at all.
112 • Wanna play a game? (by missTell on 2021-11-12 17:45:02 GMT from Switzerland)
Whoever claims that this is good, and how there is a concept behind, bring the explanation for this concept and design choices, WITH links to some respectful design institutions which will prove your opinion(s), and I'll think about, is it worth of any further discussion or not.
https://ibb.co/DwnvR3V
https://ibb.co/YhD7Tbr
https://ibb.co/D1qGHQX
--
https://ibb.co/0fSVmRL vs. https://ibb.co/xCRWmd6
113 • nicely done R. Cain (by foo2foo on 2021-11-12 17:54:44 GMT from United States)
@108 I like what you did there, nicely done.
The fact is this person probably cannot provide proof because it doesn't exist. They stated that they said these things for multiple versions of MX. Well they didn't do it under the name missTell here for other DW reviews of MX, its a easy thing to go back and search. If they did it elsewhere that would be easy to provide as well. I just did search through DWW easily, so they are full of it.
The only other person who has stated something similar for one other different MX DW review was under the user name whoKnows, who is pretty active here on DW. This person says they are not one and the same, maybe that is true. But quick searches through DWW shows both talk a lot about "Springdale 8.4", both have incorrectly used the word "concepts", and both use a lot of ibb.co links, both post from Switzerland (physically or via VPN).
The bottom line is this person doesn't like the chosen layouts, fair enough, that is their opinion. But the whole "no concept" thing is rubbish. There are DE layout concepts being used in MX, they just don't like them, and they want others to not like them too.
Every Distro does something different their DE, layouts, etc, etc. What each Distro does attracts different users for different reasons, its about choice, and in GNU/Linux and FOSS there are endless choices.
As said earlier, there is no perfect or best Distro, DE, layout, etc, etc. Users are free to use what they want, how they want, and change it how they want. If someone doesn't like it, no problem with voicing ones opinions, but rambling on nonsensical manner making stuff up is different.
The real question is since they obviously found some weird very very minor spacing issue and a theme border issue, did they report it to the MX team? Probably not, because they aren't here to do anything constructive, just rambling on DW comments.
114 • I know ... (by missTell on 2021-11-12 18:47:12 GMT from Switzerland)
Don't mix up "doesn't like" with "it's broken". The facts are not a personal opinion and not a subject to discussion.
Just like explained in this forum, I'm reading right now:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/1734336452564701447/?ctp=268#c3154202776543574863
Also, "different" is not the same as "screwed up", like MX Fluxbox.
"Users are free to use what they want, how they want, and change it how they want."
This is absolutely true and nobody denies it, BUT it doesn't make more sense in regard to MX misconception: ;)
Want to explain #112?
P.S.
missTell and whoKnows are two different persons, at least when they stand beside each other on some photo ...
Nobody talked about perfection, but about "unfinished", "unpolished", the "lack of concept", "amateur product, even if it basically works" ... Not even Windows is perfect. Everything else is a decade behind.
I don't think MX would want to pay me to fix it ... however, at least they use some of my icons, even if they don't know that themselves. I sometimes do some charity for the 2 %, of 2 % of 2 %, but nobody needs to know. Without, it would look even worse. ;)
115 • Springdale Linux - no "concept" (by foo2foo on 2021-11-12 19:20:18 GMT from United States)
Sprindale Linux has no "concept" as proof from screenshots, only blind cannot see the Apple and Orange trees in the forest of truth when the tables are turned.
Original Springdale desktop vs missTell's most best concept desktop
https://distrowatch.com/images/ktyxqzobhgijab/springdale.png vs https://ibb.co/xCRWmd6
Why do both have different icon sets being used? - no concept
Why is Adwaita and other icons being mixed on the default desktop? - no concept
Why does one have a panel on top with dock on left and other have panel on bottom? - no concept
Why does one panel have time and the other has date and time - no concept
Why are the themes different? - no concept
Why does one have a logout button and the other does not? - no concept
Why does one have Network Manager and Pulse in the panel and the other does not? - no concept
Does not have KDE desktop. - no concept
Springdale Linux for both desktop AND server use? - no concept
.0000000000000001% of human population would miss Springdale if it disappeared. - no concept
See how easy it is to just rip something apart just for the heck of it and for no reason at all?
I mean seriously? I just did all that and in the maniacal nonsensical way to prove a point. None of that matters. Springdale looks like a worthwhile Distro for people who maybe need specific to scientific computing software.
The difference is, I could care less if Springdale Linux does bad or not, and I don't actually care about anything I said above. I hope Springdale Linux gives its users everything they want and more.
116 • Must be truth, if you say so. (by missTell on 2021-11-12 20:36:33 GMT from Switzerland)
foo2foo foooo oh oooh ... :)
"See how easy it is to just rip something apart just for the heck of it and for no reason at all?"
Honestly, I don't see, or more precisely:
Yep, for someone like you, it seems to be that easy -- but because of your inability to see or read. ;)
You made a bunch of statements, but you still didn't bring a one single argument. For nothing. Ever. Not even to mention, a good argument.
What is the exact advantage for my mother, if she gets three different icon designs? Can you elaborate?
Or is your argument again: Everybody is free to use whatever and change it however?
Well my dear foo2foo, nobody ever denied that, but that feels more like the user is FORCED to change it, if it doesn't want to suffer this "accidental design".
As of Springdale ...
It was stated "it's so much easier to pick up Fedora Gnome and IceWM, if one needs to save some RAM or get it more responsive" and "Springdale 8.4 (Rad Hat / old Gnome3 and one of the RAM-hungriest OS's), uses much less resources after installing additional IceWM, and it looks far, far better", and that's why it looks different.
There was never a claim that the default Springdale look is on the screenshots.
Springdale is 1 : 1 RHEL clone, made by the Princeton University, and for their own needs. No forum. No support. No community. No nothing. 1 : 1 RHEL. What is certified to run on RHEL, runs on Springdale. DOT.
And Springdale has a concept. RHEL 1 : 1. The best one in the broken Linux world. Pure Gnome. At login screen, one can change between "modern" or chose the "classic", if one really misses some start menu panels and some totally unneeded minimize / maximize buttons, and it always comes with Adwaita theme and icons, one of only 2 or 3 usable themes in the whole Linux world. And the icons on the IceWM taskbar, are the exact same Adwaita icons -- just as on your both screenshots. ;)
My very own IceWM version has my own theme, the one you enjoy in antiX or Fedora, which was also a default in antiX for some years, but on my Springdale, it is improved and slightly modified, to suit my own needs.
"I just did all that and in the maniacal nonsensical way to prove a point."
You did prove the point, and I learned my lesson -- better to talk to a brick in front of my entrance. ;)
117 • All talk and...all talk; "Do Better Memo". (by R. Cain on 2021-11-12 20:52:35 GMT from United States)
Without referring to anyone who might be using this particular venue, it might be informative for everyone to be familiar with one of Abraham Lincoln's lesser-known, but more profound quotations ...
"He can compress the greatest amount of words into the smallest possible idea better than any man I ever knew."
As I say to my staff---in the very last line---whenever I have to generate what we all refer to as a "Do Better Memo" (which most certainly never addresses a specific individual, but only the team's performance)---
"If you are inclined to take offense at this memo, or take it personally, the subject matter probably pertains to you. Do better next time."
118 • rofl (by foo2foo on 2021-11-12 20:59:45 GMT from United States)
@116 My last comment was the same exact kind of nonsense you continue to spew, it was done on purpose. It was not a serious post, just as none of yours are.
Continue to scream into the void of the internet if you like, you're just giving MX more attention, which means more users will try it. Which usually has a good ending for the user.
No one at MX or its users care about anything that have so say. How's that for a "concept" you can grasp?
I should have continued to ignore your nonsense posting, always forget to not feed trolls, and here I am again doing it. No more.
Number of Comments: 118
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