 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 931, 23 August 2021 |
Welcome to this year's 33rd issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
Debian is one of the largest and oldest surviving Linux distributions. The project offers many thousands of packages that run across many CPU architectures and kernels. This week we begin with a look at the latest version of Debian, the "grandparent" of dozens of Linux distributions. Read on to learn how Debian 11 performance, what is new and what hasn't changed. Do you run one of Debian's many branches or ports? Let us know how you use Debian in this week's Opinion Poll. In our News section we celebrate the Haiku project turning 20 years old. We also talk about Parted Magic introducing new data wiping tools and a new subscription model. The Apple M1 processors sparked a lot of attention last year and this week we check in with Asahi Linux and the team's efforts to port Linux to M1-powered Mac computers. In our Questions and Answers column we point out ways people can keep up to date with new releases and news items in the Linux community. Plus we are pleased to share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
Content:
- Review: Debian 11
- News: Haiku turns 20, Parted Magic introduces new data wiping tools, Asahi Linux project continues porting Linux to M1 Macs
- Questions and answers: Notifications of news and new versions
- Released last week: Zorin OS 16, Manjaro 21.1.0, IPFire 2.27 Core 159
- Torrent corner: BlackArch, deepin, EuroLinux, IPFire, KaOS, Manjaro, Sparky, Zorin OS
- Opinion poll: Do you run Debian?
- New distributions: Auxtral
- Reader comments
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (16MB) and MP3 (12MB) formats.
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Debian 11 "Bullseye"
Debian is one of the oldest surviving Linux distributions and also one of the largest, both in terms of developers involved and packages provided. Debian declares itself the "universal operating system", able to run on many hardware architectures, with many desktop environments, and even using alternative kernels.
The project's release announcement for Debian 11 (code name "Bullseye") mentions this version features over 11,000 new packages while removing over 9,000 obsolete items. Driverless printing and scanning have been added to this release along with built-in support for the exFAT filesystem.
Debian 11 provides packages for GNOME 3.38, KDE Plasma 5.20, MATE 1.24, and Xfce 4.16, plus an array of other lightweight desktops and window managers. These graphical interfaces can be run on a wide range of CPU architectures, including x86_64, i686, ppc64el, s390x, armel, armhf, arm64, mipsel, and mips64el. The project's release notes go into greater detail about what is available for each platform.
Debian media is available in many flavours. There are a number of network install, CD-sized ISO files along with full-sized DVD media. There are also official live media ISOs. By default, Debian does not include non-free packages, including popular firmware, on its media. This means Debian will not work with many brands of wireless cards, preventing wi-fi connections from working. People who need non-free firmware can use unofficial media. The full sized official DVD install media is 3.7GB. I also downloaded the GNOME edition of the official live media (2.5GB) and the non-free, unofficial GNOME live disc (3.2GB).
Live media
When trying the live media, Debian boots immediately to a graphical environment. The GNOME desktop loads and presents us with a welcome screen. This welcome window asks us for some basic information about our language and keyboard layout. We are then asked if we wish to connect to a local network. The official live media could not detect my wireless card, making it useless in my environments. I switched to running the non-free media which detected my card and then offered to connect me with on-line cloud services such as Nextcloud. I was then handed over to the GNOME desktop to start exploring.
Debian 11 -- Adjusting items we can search for through the Activities menu
(full image size: 99kB, resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
The GNOME desktop seemed to be working okay and I could get on-line using Firefox to browse the web so I turned my attention to the install process. While the live media includes an install option through the boot menu, I decided to use the official Debian install media DVD.
Install process
The install DVD presents us with a boot menu where we can choose to run a graphical installer, a text installer, or an install process with text-to-speech for improved accessibility. Debian's installer has not really changed in the past decade and a half. It's a long process with a lot of screens which, on other installers, are usually skipped in favour of defaults or merged from several separate prompts into one screen with multiple options.
The installer walks us through picking our language, location, time zone, setting a password for the root account, making up a regular user account, and disk partitioning. There are 15 screens and prompts, not including pauses to display progress reports, before the base system is even installed. Once the base packages are in place we are asked which extra packages we want. These include a web server, OpenSSH service, and optional desktop environments such as GNOME, KDE Plasma, LXDE, LXQt, and Xfce.
The Debian installer asks if we want to install some packages from on-line sources as this will provide more up to date packages and I accepted. We are then asked which region the repository should be in and which mirror in that region to use. The install then proceeds and stops again to ask if we want to install a boot loader. When all is said and done, the installer presents us with at least 24 prompts in total (assuming we take guided disk partitioning and no advanced options) and setting up the initial packages takes over twice as long as most similarly sized distributions on the same hardware.
Early impressions
My fresh install of Debian booted to a graphical login screen where I could sign into the GNOME desktop. There was no welcome window or introduction. We are presented with a vanilla GNOME experience. A panel is placed along the top of the screen with an Activities menu and system tray. There are no icons and no task switcher. Application windows have a close button, but no minimize or maximum controls. Double-clicking on a title bar maximizes or restores the window.
Debian 11 -- Running LibreOffice and Totem
(full image size: 88kB, resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
GNOME's default look features a lot of white and grey. Though some windows are primarily black. For instance the Totem video player offers a mostly black background while most other windows are primarily white.
Hardware support
When I installed Debian in a VirtualBox environment the distribution started out feeling sluggish. GNOME was able to automatically resize to match the VirtualBox window, but performance was not good. This was disappointing as I've had good luck with GNOME 40 recently in virtual machines, but the older GNOME 3.38 release included here still demonstrates the poor responsiveness I've found to be characteristic of the GNOME 3.x series.
Debian 11 -- The GNOME documentation
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When running on my workstation, Debian was able to boot in both UEFI and Legacy BIOS modes. While plain Debian does not detect my wireless card, non-free firmware packages and media can be downloaded from the project and installed off-line. When run on my workstation performance was good, with GNOME offering average performance and responsiveness.
When running GNOME, Debian is a bit on the heavy side, using 760MB of memory. This is about on par for distributions running GNOME, but about 50% heavier than other mainstream Linux distributions running any other full featured desktop. A fresh install with just GNOME and a handful of desktop applications consumed 4GB of disk space, not including the swap partition.
Applications
The GNOME 3.38 desktop ships with a handful of applications. We can gain access to these programs by clicking on the Activities menu in the upper-left corner of the screen, then selecting the application button (at the bottom-left. This brings up a full-page grid of icons we can browse. There are three pages of icons we can navigate using the mouse scroll wheel or buttons located on the right side of the screen. Some utilities are kept in a separate container within the application grid and these containers can also hold multiple pages. This means some programs take five mouse clicks and three trips across the display with the mouse pointer to launch. Many people will probably prefer to use the GNOME Activities search feature where we can type the name or a descriptive keyword to find the item we want to launch.
Debian 11 -- The GNOME application menu
(full image size: 216kB, resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
The GNOME desktop on Debian now runs a Wayland session by default. I was wary of this at first as I've rarely had positive experiences with testing Wayland in the past, but in this case the experience was indistinguishable from running GNOME on the X.Org display server. GNOME Classic and GNOME running on X.Org are options available through the gear icon on the login screen.
Looking through the application menu we find the Firefox web browser, Evolution e-mail client, a contact manager, and a calendar. The LibreOffice suite is installed along with the Shotwell photo manager, and the GNOME Files file manager. Debian ships with the Transmission bittorrent client, a handful of games, and the Cheese webcam tool. The Totem video player and Rhythmbox audio player are included along with media codecs for playing a wide range of multimedia files.
Behind the scenes Debian ships with the usual collection of GNU utilities and manual pages. The systemd init software is used and the distribution ships version 5.10 of the Linux kernel.
The GNOME desktop ships with a polished settings panel. The panel offers two panes, one for navigation and the other for adjusting specific options. The panel worked well for me and I like its layout. I particularly like the file sharing options. Visiting the Public directory in GNOME Files, or browsing the proper section of the settings panel, will give us the option to share files in the Public directory. These settings are easy to adjust, files are easy to password protect, and it works quite well for sharing files on a local network.
Debian 11 -- Enabling sharing files over the network
(full image size: 103kB, resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
The sudo utility is available to help us run commands as other users. By default no users are permitted to use sudo, but this can be changed by adding our user to the sudo permissions group.
Software management
Debian provided me with two graphical front-ends for handling software packages. Before either of these, or the APT command line tools, can be used we first need to adjust the APT package manager's sources list. During the installation Debian uses the local install media as a source for packages and this repository is not removed when the install finishes. This removed repository short-circuits the package manager. This happens even when we choose to use on-line package repositories during the initial setup process and pick a remote repository mirror. All of which means we need to use either the Synaptic package manager or make a trip to the command line to edit the APT configuration file.
As I mentioned, Synaptic is one of the graphical package managers. It gives us a low-level view of individual packages and repositories. This makes it possible to fine-tune which items are installed, removed, and upgraded.
GNOME Software is the second software centre. GNOME Software is divided into three tabs. One offers search options, recommendations, and the ability to browse categories of programs. The second tab shows what software is already installed and gives us the choice of removing these packages. The third tab lists available updates.
Debian 11 -- The software centre
(full image size: 123kB, resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
By default neither the Flatpak nor Snap frameworks are installed. These portable package formats are available in Debian's repositories. In the case of Flatpak, once the framework is installed we need to manually add additional repositories and (optionally) a plugin for GNOME Software if we want to use the software centre to manage Flatpak bundles.
I had some trouble with Flatpaks in the software centre. Some would install, but other times the process would hang partway through and never finish being set up. When working from the command line I never encountered any issues installing Flatpak bundles.
Other observations
I feel it worth highlighting that Debian has shifted its default for the display server from X.Org to Wayland, though X.Org sessions are still available. This is only the second time I've had a good experience with running Wayland as the default display session. In fact this was the first time I couldn't tell the difference between running the desktop (GNOME in this case) on Wayland versus X.Org. It was a pleasant surprise and it's nice to see Wayland sessions continuing to be developed and polished.
Conclusions
One of the first things that I noticed while settling into my Debian trial was how little the distribution has changed. Someone could have swapped out my Debian 11 install media for a copy of Debian 8 and I probably wouldn't have noticed the difference. The installer is virtually identical to the one that shipped with Debian 6, the GNOME desktop hasn't really changed in the past release or two, the same quirks, issues, smooth running, and manual work are the same. Whether this is good or not will probably depend on whether you're interested in new features or consistency.
Debian 11 highlights a few distinct characteristics of the overall project in my mind. I believe it demonstrates why Debian is such a popular and powerful base, both as a foundation for other distributions and for server or embedded systems. It also demonstrates why there is such a need for Debian-based desktop distributions.
On the one side, Debian is an amazing project. It is a huge undertaking, supporting a handful of CPU architectures, providing tens of thousands of packages, multiple kernel implementations, and three main branches people can run. The project offers roughly five years of support and is well known for its stability and maturity. It's a hugely impressive undertaking and the team's dedication to making a universal operating system out in the open (using issue trackers and mailing lists) is commendable.
On the other side, Debian's effort to be universal means that, as an end-user experience, it is clearly lacking in some key areas. One of my UNIX textbooks in college mentioned that software projects tend to follow one of two philosophies when it comes to design - choose good defaults and make it possible to tweak some things later, or avoid choosing defaults and make the user configure key elements. Either approach can be fine, as long as it is not taken to extremes where the user either cannot adjust anything or must configure everything. Debian falls into the latter camp, essentially giving the user a collection of parts and leaving us to craft it into the experience we want.
This turns the initial day or two with Debian into a long process of going through installer screens, adjusting the look of GNOME, downloading non-free firmware, enabling third-party and portable repositories, tweaking the desktop layout to make it more efficient, and configuring utilities like APT and sudo. These are tasks most distributions handle automatically and it makes Debian feel unpolished, at least as a desktop distribution. As a server system, Debian's relatively light approach and focus on stability are most welcome, but the basic steps users need to perform to set up and get common functionality working make it less practical as a desktop distribution. Of course Debian can be used as a desktop system, its dozens of derivatives are proof of that. However, Debian's insistence on not making any choices and forcing the user to do so much manual work up front leaves me feeling like I'm doing work for my operating system rather than it working for me.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was a desktop HP Pavilon p6 Series with the following specifications:
- Processor: Dual-core 2.8GHz AMD A4-3420 APU
- Storage: 500GB Hitachi hard drive
- Memory: 6GB of RAM
- Networking: Realtek RTL8111 wired network card, Ralink RT5390R PCIe Wireless card
- Display: AMD Radeon HD 6410D video card
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Visitor supplied rating
Debian has a visitor supplied average rating of: 8.9/10 from 386 review(s).
Have you used Debian? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Haiku turns 20, Parted Magic introduces new data wiping tools, Asahi Linux project continues porting Linux to M1 Macs
Haiku is an open source operating system which works to keep the vision of BeOS alive, operating on modern computers. The Haiku project turned 20 years old this week, an impressive milestone for the lightweight operating system. "Dedication asks each of its adherents to have faith even as time and energy pass through from one year to the next. Dedication brings with it a variety of challenges, but also rewards. Dedication is something most people claim to have, but few readily exhibit it in the face of adversity. As of today, Aug. 18, 2021, the Haiku Project is celebrating two decades of dedication, marking the 20th anniversary of the founding of the Haiku operating system and the start of this ride to save, maintain, and expand upon the BeOS legacy it spawned from. Many things have changed since that Aug. 18, 2001 mailing list message bringing together the teams that would found what was originally called OpenBeOS. The first version released eight months later was even just called 'app_server prototype 5.' In 2004, the name permanently changed to Haiku to avoid any conflict with the remaining trademarks on BeOS." More on the history of Haiku can be found in the project's news post.
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The Parted Magic project is unveiling a new subscription model for their commercial disk management tools. The distribution now also includes a new set of disk wiping tools to remove sensitive data from hard drives. "A major new feature has been added as well. Nwipe and a Secure Erase script called ata-erase has been added to the initramfs. This is extremely useful for headless systems and minimal setups. I don't have any special boot menu options for these yet, but you can boot directly into the initramfs with the Initrd.img option from the FailSafe menu." Details can be found on the project's News page.
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The Asahi Linux project is a community effort to bring a full-featured Linux distribution to the M1-powered line of Apple computers. This is a large effort, requiring a number of kernel patches, unusual work arounds, and reverse engineering. "In order for an OS to be bootable on Apple Silicon machines, it has to 'look' like a real macOS installation. This means it has to be an APFS container with multiple volumes within it, containing specific directory structures and files. Until now, the simplest way of doing this was to actually install macOS a second time in a separate partition, and then replace its kernel with m1n1. This is, needless to say, a major pain in the ass, as the installation process is fairly slow. It also wastes around 70GB of disk space, which is how much you need for an upgradable macOS install. It also makes it difficult to install a specific macOS version, which is going to become a problem once we start requiring the usage of specific firmware bundles. This clearly won't cut it for anything beyond early development." Details on the efforts to get a Linux distribution running on M1-powered Mac computers can be found in the project's blog.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Notifications of news and new versions
Watching-for-news asks: Can you implement something so I can get e-mails from DistroWatch when my distro is updated with a new version?
DistroWatch answers: Sending out that many e-mails would soon get us placed on anti-spam lists and make it difficult for us to communicate with anyone. However, we do offer something similar to what you're looking for: RSS feeds.
People who want to receive a notification every time we publish a new release announcement can subscribe to our front page RSS feed. The feed icon is the little orange RSS icon at the top of our announcements list, next to the text "Latest News and Updates".
For people who wish to see updates and news items for a specific distribution rather than everything we publish to the front page, each distribution has its own feed. The same orange RSS icon appears near the top of each distribution's information page and clicking it will provide the contents (and URL) of the news feed. For instance, the Linux Mint feed is located at https://distrowatch.com/news/distro/mint.xml and the Fedora news feed is located at https://distrowatch.com/news/distro/fedora.xml. These URLs can be added to any RSS feed reader application such as Akregator or Thunderbird.
We also offer news feeds for headlines, the DistroWatch Weekly podcast, and our newsletter. Links to these feeds can all be found on our Contact page.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Zorin OS 16
The Zorin OS team have published a new version of their Ubuntu-based distribution. The project's new release, Zorin OS 16, is available in two editions at the moment: a free edition called Core and a commercial edition called Pro. Lite and Educational editions are planned for a later date. The new release offers a more responsive desktop experience and added a new Zorin Appearance application to make it easier to change the theme, layout, and fonts used by the desktop. "Zorin Appearance allows you to select a different desktop layout, change the app and icon theme, choose your desktop font, and tweak other parts of your desktop to make it truly yours. In Zorin OS 16, we've refreshed the app's layout to make it even easier to find customization options, with the category tabs moved from the top to the left side of the window. Desktop layouts have also been separated into a dedicated tab, and you can now set the size of desktop icons independently from the Files app. We're introducing an all-new desktop layout in Zorin Appearance which resembles the default interface in Windows 11. It features a modern and streamlined UI that adapts well to computers with touchpads, mice, or touchscreens. The new grid menu, activities overview button, and taskbar icons are placed front and center for easy access and effortless navigation on screens of all sizes." These, along with other new features, can be found in the project's release announcement.
Zorin OS 16 -- Running the GNOME desktop
(full image size: 1.0MB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
Manjaro Linux 21.1.0
Philip Müller has announced the release of Manjaro Linux 21.1.0, the latest stable build of the project's desktop-oriented, rolling-release distribution set with a choice of Xfce, GNOME and KDE Plasma desktops: "This release features major improvements to Calamares, including filesystem selection for automatic partitioning and enhanced support for Btrfs. For Btrfs installations, the default subvolume layout has been improved for easier rollbacks and less wasted space on snapshots. Additionally, swapfiles on Btrfs filesystem are now supported. The GNOME edition has received a major rework the update to GNOME 40. The default layout has been redesigned to follow more closely upstream defaults, with some adjustments to reduce the pointer travel for users who prefer using mouse with gnome. For users that preferred the old vertical desktop layout, we have the Manjaro legacy layout, which mimics the previous gnome defaults." Continue to the release announcement for additional information.
IPFire 2.27 Core 159
IPFire is an independent Linux distribution that focuses on easy setup, good handling and high level of security. The project's latest release features a new kernel, updated hardware support, and install media that is compressed with Zstandard compression for better performance. "This is a major update for IPFire, as it rebases the IPFire kernel on Linux 5.10, the latest long-term supported release of the Linux kernel. Arne has been working through a long spring getting IPFire ported on this release and it is now finally ready for prime-time. It features: Support for many new drivers, improved support and performance for existing drivers making IPFire more compatible with new, and powerful with existing hardware. Most notably are many network drivers as well as virtualised communication with the hypervisor in the cloud. Networking throughput has been increased through zero-copy TCP receive and UDP and Bottleneck Bandwidth and RTT congestion control (BBR). Those changes will also decrease the latency of the firewall in the network when forwarding packets. Wireless will have improved throughput and better latency with Airtime Queue Limits which practically enables use of all the 'Bufferbloat' algorithms on wireless. Support for 64-bit ARM hardware has been massively improved and we were able to drop a large amount of custom patches who have been upstreamed into the Linux kernel." Further details can be found in the project's release announcement.
KaOS 2021.08
KaOS is a desktop Linux distribution that features the latest version of the KDE desktop environment, the Calligra office suite, and other popular software applications that use the Qt toolkit. The rolling release distribution has introduced a few new packages, some visual changes, and the system installer now copies over network settings to the newly installed system. "Updates to the base of this distribution include Systemd 249.3, Curl 7.78.0, IWD 1.16, NetworkManager 1.32.8, Mesa 21.1.7, Poppler 21.08.0, Vulkan packages 1.2.187, Udisks 2.9.3, MLT 7.0.1, and Openexr 3.1.1. Qt 5.15 does not receive updates or maintenance from the Qt company (only closed source, paid support is available). KDE has stepped up though and published a maintained 5.15 fork. KaOS now does a monthly patch update from this fork for all of Qt 5.15, so it basically is now at 5.15.3. The installer Calamares has the ability added to carry over the network settings from the Live system, so no longer a need to enter the Wifi password again on booting into the newly installed system. There now also is an option to select the preferred filesystem when using the automated partitioning. New applications added include speedtest-cli, mauikit-accounts, and bibletime. Biggest change here is the addition of Plasma Mobile Apps, which are very suitable for desktop use. They include Angelfish (web-browser), Kasts (pocasts), Kalk (calculator), and Koko (image viewer)." Additional details can be found in the project's release announcement.
SparkyLinux 6.0
The SparkyLinux project developers a Debian-based distribution in a variety of lightweight flavours. The project has published a new stable release, SparkyLinux 6.0, which is based on Debian 11 "Bullseye". "Sparky 6.0 'Po Tolo' has been released. It is based on and fully compatible with Debian 11 'Bullseye'. Highlights: based on Debian stable 11 'Bullseye'; all packages updated from Debian 'Bullseye' and Sparky 'Po Tolo' repos as of August 16, 2021; Firefox 78.13.0ESR instead of Firefox (latest); Thunderbird 78.13.0; VLC 3.0.16; LibreOffice 7.0.4; Calamares 3.2.41.1; Linux kernel 5.10.46 LTS as default; desktop fonts set to 11; exfatprogs replaced exfat-fuse and exfat-utils to manage exFAT partitions; installed ipp-usb to allow a USB device to be treated as a network device; MinimalGUI: PCManFM replaces DoubleCMD-GTK and Firefox-ESR replaces Epiphany browser; MinimalCLI: removed multilingual from boot settings and cli installer. Sparky APTus is no loger under development and has been replaced by Sparky APTus AppCenter, introduced over a year ago." Additional information can be found in the project's release announcement.
SparkyLinux 6.0 -- Running the LXQt desktop
(full image size: 252kB, resolution: 1920x1080 pixels)
Pardus 21.0
Pardus is a GNU/Linux distribution jointly developed by the Scientific & Technological Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK) and National Academic Network and Information Centre (ULAKBİM). The Debian-based distribution has published a new version, Pardus 21.0, which features several key updates. An English translation of the project's release notes (in Turkish) reads: "Enjoy the most up-to-date and stable versions of software such as Firefox, Libreoffice, Thunderbird, VLC Media Player in the Pardus operating system that comes with Linux kernel 5.10. As well as these software, the Pardus Power Manager can be seen on the battery life of power management on laptops. With Pardus USB applications, you can format your USBs and write disk images. Using the Pardus Software Center, you can download very popular applications to your computer. The Debian-based package management system has special improvements, security, and innovations to Pardus thanks to the weekly updates via package repositories." The distribution is available in three editions: GNOME, Xfce, and Server.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,559
- Total data uploaded: 39.5TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
Do you run Debian?
The Debian project recently turned 28 year old and was the subject of this week's review. Debian is not only popular on its own, especially in server space, it is the parent or grandparent to over 100 distributions. Do you run Debian or one of its children? Let us know how long you have been running Debian in the comments.
You can see the results of our previous poll on CentOS Linux alternatives in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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Do you run Debian?
| Yes - as a desktop OS: | 712 (26%) |
| Yes - as a server OS: | 166 (6%) |
| Yes - in embedded systems: | 24 (1%) |
| Yes - in a variety of roles: | 281 (10%) |
| No - but I run a Debian-based OS: | 1020 (38%) |
| No - not at all: | 493 (18%) |
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| Website News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- Auxtral. Auxtral is a desktop distribution based on Debian. It features Cinnamon and Xfce editions.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 30 August 2021. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Article Search page. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
- Bruce Patterson (podcast)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Debian usage (by MDo on 2021-08-23 00:37:39 GMT from United States)
I have been using Debian since 2010 on both servers and on the desktop. Running stable on servers has been rock-solid with no issues for a very long time. However, some packages in stable can be pretty ancient so I run sid on the desktop and havent had too many major issues with package instability. The occasional package issue is usually quickly resolved and get all the comforts of an up-to-date distro.
2 • Debian on the desktop (by Simon on 2021-08-23 01:28:20 GMT from New Zealand)
I love Debian as a desktop OS, for all the reasons Jesse described as disadvantages, as well as the ones (stability, consistency, openness, etc.) described as advantages. To me there is always far more work involved in setting up a distro with a streamlined installer, because I have to reverse so many of the developers' decisions that have been "helpfully" made for me, in order to set things up the way that works best for me, and that I can do from the outset with an installer like Debian's. Debian is quicker and more straightforward, because it has the courtesy to ask me what I want rather than to make assumptions and go ahead with stuff I have to waste time fixing later on.
Much as I dislike systemd and so prefer distros like Gentoo and Slackware both for their freedom from systemd and for their (related) greater (than Debian's) emphasis on making it easy for fussy users to customize our setups, my respect for Debian still continues to grow with every release. This is largely because, like Jesse says, it hardly changes at all, basically just updating the existing setup so you can immediately get on with things, instead of having to re-learn all the tools you depend upon to get your work done. It's a great distro, and considering the fact that Ubuntu and so many other distros are built on Debian, undoutedly one of the greatest distros, quite literally, both in terms of the sheer number of developers and packages and so on, and in terms of how many people benefit from its efforts. Thank you, Debian project: I'm very happy to see another good, boring, trustworthy release. Here's to another five years of my OS just doing its job reliably so I can get on with mine.
3 • Debian 11 (by Jules on 2021-08-23 01:36:21 GMT from Australia)
Hi,
Built a PC for the install of Debian from old parts (under 11 years old) .
Installed Debian 11 with XFCE last week on Intel 920 Quad Core PC with 8GB DDR3
RAM, both Wifi and Wired ethernet ports, 8 * 500GB HDDs, 4 * 3TB HDDs with a 1GB GeForce GT610 video card with 4 USB2 ports on front thru card reader.
It lives in an old full tower case with 750w power supply in the garage.
All went well - no issues so far. It uptime now of over 170 hours.
It runs several backups over LAN of movies and TV Shows, plus work stuff backups.
All automated and takes care of itself.
It used as a client-server and I use nomachine (instead of VNC) to remote access
it from inside the house. Now off to have more linux fun...
Cheers
Live Live Linux..
4 • Debian-derived (by Nono on 2021-08-23 01:36:59 GMT from France)
I tried debian in 1998 but found it difficult to configure X. At that time, i tried Red Hat too but its package management wasnot as good as Debian's, which was supposed to have been better for several years. I then gave up using Linux for 9 years, (but i still read about it as i have actually done since a Byte article of september 1992 or 1993, if i remember well).
Then my Windows setup on a laptop eventually crashed and i tried several Debian-derived desktop distributions again. I began with trying those commercial supposedly user-optimsed stuff (Xandros and Linspire) that failed at first reboot because they just didnot stored the keyborad localisation used at setup (they just defaulted tu a US keyboar, which i donot have). Before giving up again because Linux was not fit for desktop, i just had a try at Ubuntu. Bingo. This one really did what i needed straight form first install.
I never really switched back. Ubuntu comes with the excellent Debian package management, plus real user friendliness. Sometimes i open a shell. I donot need to, but it reminds me my students day around 1990. The Debian package management system is so good i once had a power shortage in the middle of a major version upgrade, and in the middle of the installation of a peculiar package. When rebooting, no desktop was functionnal, but i just relaunched the update on a command line and it resumed up to the point the system at least rebooted fully functionnal as if nothing has happened. That was 3 years ago, and i still uses the same system with no reinstallation, just rolling updates since then.
Whe, i say i never REALLY switched back, i mean i never used Unity. When Ubuntu replaced GNOME 2 with it, Unity was so badly designed it didnot use my graphics controller at all. So i switched on Ubuntu MATE on my old laptop who died in 2014, and Ubuntu GNOME Remix (a community derivation using GNOME 3) for my newer laptop. It is this intsllation that i am still using today. This Ubuntu GNOME Remix setup evolved into an official Ubuntu GNOME, then into nowadays' Ubuntu, just through default LTS upgrades. I have never found a better Debian-derived distro than Ubuntu, nor an easier desktop environment than GNOME.
I have found another laptop, i used for testing alternative distros. For 2 years, it has been running Manjaro GNOME, just for the sake of trying another package management system (Arch-based). But all Manjaro updates arenot as smooth as Ubuntu's. On Manjaro, you are sometimes asked to resolve package version conflicts and are often left with guesswork to do so. It is better than RedHat package management as far as i have experienced, but is not as reliable as Ubuntu's Debian-based package management system.
5 • Debian (by Pumpino on 2021-08-23 01:39:17 GMT from Australia)
I don't understand why anyone would use Debian stable on a desktop. It's already running old versions of Gnome and Mate, and KDE is a long-term release. You're also stuck with old versions of LibreOffice, Evolution, The Gimp, Firefox, etc for two years. I suspect the next version of Ubuntu will include many old packages too, as it typically just takes a snapshot of Sid.
As for running Sid on a desktop, people seem happy with it, but it's been frozen for months now, which occurs every two years. I prefer rolling distros like Arch and Manjaro.tedting, as I'm always up to date.
6 • Reply to Pumpino (by Aaron on 2021-08-23 01:56:38 GMT from Germany)
> I don't understand why anyone would use Debian stable on a desktop.
1. Anonymous/Security-first distros like Tails rely on the stability and robust security of Debian stable. It's just a different user base.
2. There is Debian backport so you can use newer versions of softwares though these might still lag behind the mainline like other rolling distros, for example, Arch.
> As for running Sid on a desktop, people seem happy with it, but it's been frozen for months now, which occurs every two years.
Upon the release of Debian 11, the full freeze is now over and I just got over 100 updates yesterday (though I'm on testing, not unstable aka. Sid). I admit the combination of stable w/ backports or testing w/ security updates from Sid can be really tricky and sometimes does not work out of the box and requires decent knowledge about command-line, GNU/Linux, packaging etc.
7 • About Debian usage (by Mahmoud Slamah on 2021-08-23 02:19:51 GMT from Egypt)
Do you run Debian?
I used Debian Many years ago as LiveCD/dvd then focused on Boot.iso to avoid download big volumes and try in Virtual-box , as my training was on CentOS 5 but I decided to learn many distros as package management and want to know more abut Upstream distros , but not used Debian as main desktop till now , tried [as live] Ubuntu , Mint , PClinuxOS ... etc
8 • Debian (by Chiguy on 2021-08-23 02:44:34 GMT from United States)
15 years or so ago, I bought an eMac because the company I worked at used Macs and I worked some at home. After 5 or 6 years it was obsolete because Apple would not update it anymore. (I never bought another Apple.) I didn't want to just brick it, so I decided to try to install Linux on it. The only Linux distro I could install and get to work was Debian. It was great, and I used it for a while.The eMac had very good built-in sound, so it was really good for music. I use Ubuntu these days, based on Debian, of course. Kudos to a great distro.
9 • Reply to Aaron (by Pumpino on 2021-08-23 03:04:01 GMT from Australia)
I'm not too impressed with the search results in Backports. I'm not seeing recent versions of apps I use such as Evolution, Audacious, LibreOffice and Remmina. One would have to use Flatpaks.
10 • How about the "grandchild"? (by Friar Tux on 2021-08-23 03:54:31 GMT from Canada)
I guess I use a Grandchild of Debian - Linux Mint. And I really don't mind if a lot of the app/program versions are older. If they do the job I need them to do, it matters not if it is the latest or not. Debian/Ubuntu/Mint are the most stable iterations of Linux I have found. And I've tested a lot. For me stable means install and go to work with no issues or after-install fidgeting. I have had Mint for five years, now, and never had a "lost-time" issue.
By the way, I love all the Mark Twain quotes at the end of this comment section. Especially since The Wife is a Mark Twain aficionado. She can usually tell where each quote came from. And can quote saying not yet shown here. (Yeah, I'm bragging.)
However hasn't anyone ever heard Mark Twain say something like, "Hey, anyone seen my socks?" Or, "Yuck, do I HAVE to eat this?" Or even, "Somebody want to get me some toilet paper? We're all out in here!" Why quote just the pithy stuff.
11 • Using Debian (by Al Per on 2021-08-23 04:21:12 GMT from United States)
Hello,
I got in touch with Linux about twelve years ago, more or less, through Ubuntu. Then I began testing other Ubuntu derivatives (Debian itself was intimidating -especially its installer; everything about it seemed as friendly to me as a fortress made of stone). Later I began trying Debian derivatives too and started acquiring a little more knowledge of linux. I have also tried other families of this OS: OpenMandriva, Mageia, OpenSUSE, and many others -always (from the start almost) on a multi-boot setup: I always kept a copy of one version of Ubuntu and/or some of its derivatives plus Debian derivatives while exploring the linux field. I discovered some Arch-derived systems which I liked but ended up discarding them because they did not fit my use case (I want to make myself clear: I think that these Arch-based OS's are really good).
Finally I tried Debian itself and liked it as well. At this moment I'm testing Debian 11 Bullseye (an unofficial Debian alternative build with non-free firmware). Things are going fine with it so far.
Regards
12 • Debian (by debuser on 2021-08-23 05:28:05 GMT from Bulgaria)
@Pumpino I use only stable distros, in my case Debian is the primary choice. This the way one to have a deep, professional knowledge of Linux. People using rolling distros have shallow knowledge of Linux - its like building a castle(of knowledge) on moving sands
13 • debian (by peer on 2021-08-23 07:50:37 GMT from Netherlands)
I used many distro's (opensuse, manjaro, mint, ubuntu, debian,..) on my desktop. About a year ago I switched from kubuntu to debian. I was really surprised how easy this switch was. There were a few minor differences but no serious issues and no difficult extra configurations.
Debian will stay on my desktop!!!!!!!!!!
14 • Debian installation method / process (by Alexandru on 2021-08-23 08:09:34 GMT from Austria)
Dear Jesse, thank you for reviewing Debian. And please don't take my comments below as an offense.
The first remark is about installation media. Debian can be downloaded as installer-only (netinstall) or CD set (first CD includes as much of useful packages as possible) or DVD set (first DVD includes as much of useful packages as possible) or BD or multi-arch DVD (e.g. for i686 and x86-64). It is improper to say that installation media contains Debian installer. It contains relatively small installer together with the packages you will probably want to install. In my knowledge, Debian is the only Linux distribution that allows installation and further usage completely offline. And this is the point of downloading large DVD image to install Debian. When someone configures online package repository, this means newer packages or those not available on installation media will be downloaded from online repository. It never meant that installation media will be ignored or not preferred source for a package.
If somebody wants the installation media to not be included automatically in sources.list, he/she can use netinst Debian installer. This is for years the recommended way to install Debian. The last version of debian.org site shows this option on almost half of its page's area. If however somebody chooses to download Debian installer together with packages, Debian assumes he/she will want to use this installation media also for packages source. In order to change this choice one needs to modify sources.list either from terminal or from Synaptic or other graphical configuration tool.
The second remark is related sudo. By default Debian installer asks to choose root password. The lengthy explanatory page says that the user can leave this password blank and in this case the root login will be disabled and the first user will be added to sudoers group. As simple as it. Many other distributions do not provide this choice.
The third remark is about Debian installer verbosity. Debian installer provides reasonable default choices. On most prompts the user just has to press enter to continue (most users do so without reading the explanatory text on that page). But on the first page of Debian installer you also can go back and choose installer verbosity level from 5 options. This effective will increase or decrease the number of questions you will be asked.
15 • Debian (by DachshundMan on 2021-08-23 08:19:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have tried Debian and did not decide to continue with it due to all the initial setup required, IE for exactly the inconvenience that Jesse described. Instead I swapped to Ubuntu until they decided on the Ubiquity desktop at which point I moved to Mint where I remain except with my RPi where I use Ubuntu Mate.
Would I go back to Debian if they improved the initial setup experience ? I really do not know.
16 • Debian 11 Bullseye (by Alexandru on 2021-08-23 08:27:08 GMT from Austria)
From 2002 I use Linux and from 2004 the preferred distribution is Debian. For me, Debian is just the right balance of easy-to-use-ness, stability, choices and different usage scenarios.
That doesn't mean I never tried something else. Last time I tried to use Linux Mint. It is for sure easier to install and configure, but only for some scenarios. For example, I was not able to configure another partition as /home mount point after install (and I don't want installer to touch this partition). The simple modification of /etc/fstab doesn't work in Mint (it works in Debian).
Additionally, when I need many different scientific applications, which are all available, in Mint I end up with some of them impossible to launch and generally they do not work together. I never had such situation on Debian. Not only default applications are well polished, but all available software is so.
I never had any problem with codecs in plain Debian. It may be related to the fact I usually install from media including non-free firmware.
17 • Debian (by Christian on 2021-08-23 08:31:26 GMT from Sweden)
I've used Debian Stable on the desktop since the 20th century, occasionally trying other distros and also Windows and OS X. Imo there is nothing that beats Debian. You get a super reliable system with a huge selection of software, which can run on just about anything, for ever.
Configuration isn't something you do every time there is a new stable version. You kind of do it /once/ and then just upgrade as a new version comes along. If you have to get a new computer and make a fresh install, you just move a few configuration files. Getting a system to the point where it feels just perfect for you always takes time, anyway, on any system. It happens gradually as your needs and preferences change. I've always found Debian's defaults to be good, however, so there is no rush.
If I for some reason need the very latest release of some software, there is often a Debian Stable package ready for me directly from the developer. When there isn't, I can either use an updates repository, pull something in from sid or simply build it myself and put in /usr/local. This way I have a bedrock solid system with a handful of bleeding edge software on top.
My upgrade from Buster to Bullseye was completely uneventful, like always, on three different machines. One of them didn't have sbcl on it, so I installed that, and marveled at the fact that you can just do "apt install sbcl slime cl-quicklisp" and be hacking away seconds later.
THANK YOU Debian! I'm looking forward to another 25 years!
18 • Debian (by Former on 2021-08-23 08:42:38 GMT from United States)
I'm using Linux MX, based on Debian. I also have Manjaro, but I like MX better. No headaches at updates. Also MX will have some software newer than other Debian based systems such as Mint
19 • Debian (by James on 2021-08-23 09:41:00 GMT from United States)
My first distro was Debian based. I have used Debian, or Debian based distros since then. I learned the package manager and commands for Debian, and have no desire to learn other package managers and commands. Therefore I stick to Debian based Distros.
20 • franken debian (by fonz on 2021-08-23 09:56:54 GMT from Indonesia)
franken debian with lots of out of bounds binaries installed to other paths, no none default packages (like PPAs), flats and snaps.
after waiting for a weekish, i finally decided to upgrade my deb 10 kitchen PC to 11. nothing borked, and it has been updated since 8. i honestly might do a full reinstall since i longer play around with LTSP (those single boarders like rasp pi are easier IMHO), also calamares has been included since deb 10? i do like approaches like these where you get literally no defaults, and you have to 'choose your destiny' with user configs. the debian wiki has grown a ton, but i still like looking through other places more often. hopefully all the other kids (like mx) will run along just fine.
also grats for haiku, the last review on here showed favorable test runs compared to the previous...
21 • Debian 11... (by Marc Visscher on 2021-08-23 10:02:17 GMT from Netherlands)
Just a week ago I decided to give Debian 11 "Bullseye" a try on one of my older laptops, so I downloaded the image, verified the checksum with sha512sum and wrote it on a USB-stick with the dd command. That was a smooth process, and I encountered no problems.
When I tried to start Debian 11 to the live-version of that distro, that wasn't much of a succes! The desktop wouldn't/couldn't start on this machine, and that was the first time I encountered this on this laptop with a Debian-flavour. It runned many Ubuntu and Linux Mint versions over the years without problems, so this was a bit odd. Just to be sure if I got better luck on another machine, I tried to start the live-version on another computer, which also always runs smooth on any Debian-based distro. But to my surprise I encountered the exact same problem on that machine too. Very strange. Different hardware from different years and different brands, but exactly the same problem.
I checked the checksum again of the image, and the checksum was right and the ISO was not corrupt. I tried to write the ISO on another USB-stick and went to the same routine again on both machines. But again the desktop failed to start on both machines. The screen remained black, and nothing was happening, whatever I tried!
In other words... that wasn't a very smooth experience with the latest Debian. I saved myself the hassle after a real installation on the harddisk, where the problem probably manifests itself again and couldn't go on. So I ditched Debian 11 and decided to install Lubuntu 20.04 LTS on this older machine. And guess what? That went smooth all the way, and the distro works like a charm.
Debian is a solid base for other distro's, but the experience I had with "the real deal" Debian was not really a lucky one. Unfortunately.....
22 • Debian Install media with proprietary firmware (by Mike Simms on 2021-08-23 10:31:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
There is a set of non-free ISO available with blobs for wifi adaptors and GPU chips which aren't included on the standard Debian ISO. The link for them is on the Downloads page so anyone struggling with a black screen or no network when they try the standard Live ISO should grab one of them instead.
It also saves a bit of time wasted finding and installing the blobs for the vanilla ISO.
I don't know how it was missed as an option for the review but there you go. Hopefully I cleared that up for readers and saved someone some time and hassle.
23 • Debian (by Jesse on 2021-08-23 10:41:41 GMT from Canada)
@22: "There is a set of non-free ISO available with blobs for wifi adaptors and GPU chips which aren't included on the standard Debian ISO. ... I don't know how it was missed as an option for the review but there you go. Hopefully I cleared that up for readers and saved someone some time and hassle."
The review literally dedicates four paragraphs to talking about the non-free install media.
@14: "When someone configures online package repository, this means newer packages or those not available on installation media will be downloaded from online repository. It never meant that installation media will be ignored or not preferred source for a package."
I am aware of this, but it doesn't really have any bearing on my comments regarding package management. My point was APT it already set up for on-line repositories, but removing one source (the DVD in this case) completely breaks APT. Other distributions remove the local source automatically to avoid this issue. Debian has had this problem for over a decade and it's weird it isn't fixed yet.
"By default Debian installer asks to choose root password. The lengthy explanatory page says that the user can leave this password blank and in this case the root login will be disabled and the first user will be added to sudoers group. As simple as it. Many other distributions do not provide this choice."
Actually, most distributions do offer this choice. Just about any distro that uses Ubiquity, YaST, or Calamares has a screen where you can handle this option. The nice thing the other installers do is they typically make it possible to both set a root password and enable sudo for the first regular user.
"Debian installer provides reasonable default choices. On most prompts the user just has to press enter to continue (most users do so without reading the explanatory text on that page)."
Not really, no. Maybe if you live in the right location or don't set a password for your users, or don't want to adjust the way your disk is partitioned. But many of the 24+ screens Debian showed me did not offer suitable defaults. Even if they did there isn't any reason to show me 24 screens when it offers no benefit over Ubiquity or Calamares showing me 6 screens and accomplishing the exact same thing. I shouldn't be asked for my region twice or which package mirror to use or asked to wait five minutes while the base OS is set up before selecting optional packages. The installer is painfully slow and verbose compared to other installers by default and there is no benefit to all the extra prompts as they don't offer useful customization.
24 • Debian (by César on 2021-08-23 11:21:00 GMT from Chile)
¡Hola!
Well, i use Debian since the years of Sarge with Gnome 2.* (i don't rememeber exactly the version of the desktop environment) and i like because is stable and is one of the few distros works fine in my "Neanderthal" computer. Debian 11 works very well, install the evil Brother printer without any issues, the installation of Webex with Gdebi is without problems and worked well, the ATI card worked perfect, no problems, i install with Mate Desktop, smooth performance. I don't like the "bleeding edge" distros, sometimes hangs or freezes, i prefer stables distros and this version of Debian is perfect in this aspect.
Is not hungry for RAM, not use too much HD, the bluetooth works fine...is a very good distro.
At least, is a distro for users who need a stable environment, without something "on the edge".
Saludos desde Santiago de Chile.
25 • Debian descendant (by Trihexagonal on 2021-08-23 11:44:14 GMT from United States)
I have a Kali Linux 2021.2 rolling release box (Installer) on metal with Xfce as a DE sitting next to me I just rebooted after over a month uptime.
I'm very happy with it, but use as FreeBSD as my daily driver and typing from one of several right now.
Though I have used Kali since it was Backtrack 5, Debian has been my distro of choice for a long time and if I ran Linux is usually what I used,
However, I've still got a what was a non-free iwlwifi-4965-2.ucode file saved from 2016 I had to hunt down to get wi-fi on a Debian box working.
The Kali box I have now fired right up and everything worked from the start. I like using apt-get and never have a problem with it.
26 • Debian derivitives (by Bob McConnell on 2021-08-23 12:31:25 GMT from United States)
I have three Raspberry Pi boards running Raspian, which is still based on Debian. One is connected to an Arduino board running DCC++ and is going to be controlling several HO scale model trains. Other than those, everything is running Slackware, and has been since '93. At work I did have to fight with RHEL servers and then CentOS before I retired, and even got to develop some network emulation software on FreeBSD 9.0 before the Linux TUN/TAP interface stabilized. FreeBSD was the only one that was anywhere near as simple to install and configure as Slackware.
27 • Debian 11... (reaction to #22) (by Marc Visscher on 2021-08-23 12:39:41 GMT from Netherlands)
#22 wrote:
"There is a set of non-free ISO available with blobs for wifi adaptors and GPU chips which aren't included on the standard Debian ISO. The link for them is on the Downloads page so anyone struggling with a black screen or no network when they try the standard Live ISO should grab one of them instead."
Why doesn't the Debian team include those on one ISO, and give people the choice to install them (or not) when you encounter problems? The method of two different ISO's offering drivers for free and/or non-free stuff is really not well thought and not very user friendly. I encountered problems with Debian 11, but after these problems I didn't feel the urge to try it all over again with another ISO from Debian. I just thought: "Well, it's obvious if this doesn't work, so I'll take another distro that for sure will work on this machine!"
In other words: it chases people away from straight Debian. There are too much "problems" to overcome compared to other (Debian based) distro's. Arch Linux has a name for being "hard" and "difficult" to install (which is true if you're not an experienced CLI-master or at least experienced with Linux). But when people encounter issues like I had, the choice of choosing another Linux flavour becomes a no-brainer. Because distro's like the Buntu's, Linux Mint, but also other distro's like Manjaro "just work" right from the start. That's my experience, at least...
I really have a warm heart for Debian, because it brought many goods to the Linux ecosystem. So I don't want to see them fail or see them get a bad reputation. But the Debian developers need to get some polish into the distro before they release Debian as a desktop OS. So I wish them nothing but the best to accomplish that... :-)
28 • @Jesse: (by dragonmouth on 2021-08-23 13:18:37 GMT from United States)
" makes Debian feel unpolished"
Each to his own. What you call "unpolished" I call "convenient". With all those settings, Debian is like a DIY distro (LFS, Gentoo) but without all the compiling. I want to use Linux set up the way I like/need, not the way some developer thinks is good for me. I tried many of the Ubunu-based distros. It was like being in a straight jacket.
29 • Calamares installer on Debian live DVDs (by Dave on 2021-08-23 13:26:15 GMT from United States)
I believe installation from the Debian live DVDs, including the non-free versions, use the Calamares installer. If so, the installation experience is probably a lot closer to Debian-derived distros designed to be user-friendly.
30 • Up-to-date applications on Debian stable (by Dave on 2021-08-23 13:37:07 GMT from United States)
In his review of Debian 11 at the Register, Scott Gilbertson recommends using Flatpaks and Snaps on Debian stable to get up-to-date applications on an absolutely reliable base OS.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/16/debian_11/
31 • Devuan (by Dev1 on 2021-08-23 13:44:42 GMT from Brazil)
I started using linux in 2003 (no systemd era) and since around 2011/2012 something wasn't "right". Tried several distros (debian, mint, arch, manjaro) and the same weird behavior.
I figured it out that systemd was the source of such behavior.
Now, I'm using Devuan (Debian without systemd) chimaera in two laptops. One with sysvinit and the other with runit.
Things are good now and looks "right".
Concerning "old" versions that some here are complaining. There are tons of solutions:
- Firefox: you can go to mozilla's website I download it (I do this)
- Libreoffice: you can go to LO's website I download it (appimage)
- Inkscape, krita, octave, texlive: just download new versions and install it.
- You can also download source code and compile it. (emacs, gcc, kernel, etc....)
If you are too lazy to compile the source code or to download a few binaries, you can use backports or testing/unstable.
Or, perhaps, Debian is not for you! Go with Fedora that is easy to install and has a lot of up-to-date or near up-to-date packages
GNOME does not work for me. I prefer KDE/Mate/Xfce. Do I need the latest versions of these DE? No. I want one that works and these 3 just do what they have to do.
32 • LMDE (by Kingneutron on 2021-08-23 14:08:10 GMT from United States)
Linux Mint Debian Edition; also Devuan, MX and Antix are my go-tos but Deepin had a pretty nice GUI and I'm also delving into Zorin
33 • I love Debian, but agree with some criticisms (by Matt on 2021-08-23 14:34:45 GMT from United States)
I've used Debian for 15+ years. It is the best general purpose operating system in my opinion. It succeeds as a general purpose operating system, but doesn't really succeed for the general purpose user. I agree that some of the installation and configuration could be improved to make it easier for people to get started:
1. If you have a non-standard disk arrangement (multiple disks or RAID), it can be extremely difficult to figure out the proper partitioning scheme and the use of logical volumes through the installer. If you know ahead of time exactly what you want, you can do it, but the installer does not offer suggestions in the case that you are not sure what to do.
2. When installing on a laptop or tablet that does not have an ethernet port, it can be very difficult to proceed with installation if you can't get WIFI working using the installer. You can install everything you need without a working network connection, but it isn't easy.
3. There are some cases where I have found that the X windows system does not work without proprietary firmware bits. In addition, some cases video still fails even with non-free firmware installed without first manually configuring proper kernel options in grub. It can be a real turn off to a user who boots up the first time to a blank screen or scrambled video. It is especially a bad turn off when Mint and Ubuntu do a far better job of handling these types of situations.
That being said, I've used a couple of Arch derivatives that use the Calamares installer. That installer isn't any better than the one used by Debian. In addition, using Debian testing provides an option for a rolling release that is far more stable than Arch.
34 • Debian (by David on 2021-08-23 15:29:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
I use Debian on my old IBM Thinkpad as it's the only distro giving adequate support for a non-PAE system since Ubuntu dropped 32-bit. The Xfce version took endless work. It started with getting proprietary firmware; then adding things that should have been there (e.g. a file searcher) and removing things that shouldn't (e.g. complete support for Thai) broke Synaptic and sent me to the command line. The final result works but getting there was was more trouble than one should experience in a modern distro.
35 • Deb (by Tad Strange on 2021-08-23 15:30:50 GMT from Canada)
While I have a fondness for Debian, I've never run it (for long).
The setup was always more DIY than I have the patience for, the software is old, and I often would have issues with hardware, or getting the DE working.
Same as how I won't run pure Arch - I'm averse to pain.
I like the once-removed derivatives from either, however - the ones who take a base OS and add the quality of life stuff for general consumer use.
36 • Debian (by Gram on 2021-08-23 15:55:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
The point about Debian is that you know what you're going to get. Needs some work initially, but then you can expect no problems.
These days, for anyone wanting newer software, you have the option in many cases, of using appimages.
If you want the system but would rather not spend the time setting it up, there's a multiple of choices. I would recommend Sparky Linux, who already have a distro based based on Bullseye.
37 • Debian (by tomas on 2021-08-23 16:34:21 GMT from Czechia)
I'm rather a newbie to Linux and when I come to an information that seems to me that the distro has something interesting in it I usually want to try.
Reading "Driverless printing and scanning have been added to this release" was the case for me, but at least from the live ISO, I did not get what is promissed.
As far as I can understand the driver must be present on the "server" machine and the list of supported scanners is much shorter than that of scanners using drivers.
Where is the point of adding driverless printing and scanning?
38 • Debian (by Fred on 2021-08-23 17:20:54 GMT from Sweden)
I started my journey with Linux Mint Mate and then Xubuntu and have tried many other distros. Nowadays I use Debian Stable Xfce as desktop OS. I prefer software that works and are thoroughly vetted even if that entails running older stuff. I very seldom find that is a problem.
39 • Debian-based OS - a very good one (by freedom of speach on 2021-08-23 17:50:36 GMT from Hungary)
Voted on: No - but I run a Debian-based OS
I run a MakuluLinux Shift. Land of plenty for Newbys.
Shitfted to it because the easiness of switching DEs.
They even improved Unity, the top-panel is now cool.
And every UI/UX part is an improvement over standard ones.
I like Makulu's ideas how a user interface can be better, maybe better than Win/macOS.
Keep on Makulu. More cool ideas, Go on with the improvements.
Devuan devs make a look at Makulu, Makulu devs look at Devuan. It could be a fine coop too.
40 • Debian (by Robert on 2021-08-23 18:10:49 GMT from United States)
I have a healthy respect for Debian, but do not use it or any derivatives. I did use PCLinuxOS sometime mid to late 2000s which used apt so was presumably debian-based.
I have no particular reason to avoid them, I'm just comfortable with Arch and rpm distros.
41 • Debian 11 is amazing (by mik0 on 2021-08-23 18:46:26 GMT from Israel)
I need a lightweight distro that just works out of the box, and Debian with LXDE is just perfect. Debian 11 will stay on my ThinkPad for at least 3 years, I am very satisfied. Sincerelly I do not understand why people use Debian derivatives, they are absolutely purposeless because Debian gives absolutely everything.
42 • Your choice (by Vern on 2021-08-23 19:00:16 GMT from United States)
>> Debian's insistence on not making any choices and forcing the user to do so much manual work up front leaves me feeling like I'm doing work for my operating system rather than it working for me.
I prefer this approach. Let me decide what I want to do with my system. I use Linux for the freedom to choose. I thank the Debian Project for the OS, and for giving me the option to choose.
Cheers
43 • Debian install media part deux... (by Mike Simms on 2021-08-23 19:49:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
@22 - "The review literally dedicates four paragraphs to talking about the non-free install media."
Not really, I saw it mentioned briefly in two and in far from enough detail though to justify bothering at all.
@27 - The non-free media should indeed be standard BUT in USA where Debian is based they have very strict licensing laws which also affects Fedora Project media and their official repositories to a certain extent. Debian do seem to be taking this to the extreme but I don't blame them wanting to avoid any legal issues.
44 • Firmware (by Jesse on 2021-08-23 20:11:03 GMT from Canada)
@43: " The non-free media should indeed be standard BUT in USA where Debian is based they have very strict licensing laws which also affects Fedora Project media and their official repositories to a certain extent. Debian do seem to be taking this to the extreme but I don't blame them wanting to avoid any legal issues. "
The choice to not include non-free firmware by default in Debian is not a legal decision.
Fedora, by the way, actually ships with non-free firmware. It's just non-free software Fedora doesn't ship, the project is a-ok with non-free firmware. Debian doesn't include non-free firmware on their install media due to the project's desire to be as close to the free software philosophy as possible, not due to legal concerns.
45 • Debian (by Max on 2021-08-23 20:41:14 GMT from Switzerland)
I use Debian because Debian is the best all-around distro (rock solid, stable, long living, long lasting, has lot of software, is a community project, is dedicated to opensource software, respects its users, a non-profit organization is behind it, etc. etc. - attributes and values which are not easily available in our world.
@5 I do not understand why some people assume that every linux user wants, or even needs, to use the latest version of the latest software packages and is ready to submit himself to the ordeal of daily "updating" procedures. This is beyond my understanding.
46 • A Debian Derivative (by CSRoad on 2021-08-23 20:48:54 GMT from Canada)
I started playing with Linux in 1997 with Red Hat and then after trying multiple distros switched to Debian in 2002 and stayed until the systemd debacle. Now I use Devuan about a close as you can get to Debian with the systemd reliance filtered out, I run Beowulf on must be stable box, and I'm typing this on my Ceres (unstable) box with LXQT, which is my desktop of choice and this is darn near Debian sid.
It is an interesting situation when the fork is so close and offers the freedom once offered by Debian.
It reflects well on both devs at Devuan and Debian that this works so well.
47 • Debian as desktop OS (by Serge Terryn on 2021-08-23 20:51:20 GMT from Belgium)
I use debian for his stable environment. Using my computer for coding and I give nothing about how the desktop looks. I use dwm as windowmanager and when I open my ide, the whole desktop is used. I used Manjaro, Fedora and other beautifull desktops. Then you opened your ide, write code, and suddenly your ide is gone and also the code you didn't save. Never got an application that I use under debian that crashed that way. Stable means stable, and that is what I want, not a wonderfull desktop.
If I need the latest software, then I use flatpak packages for testing my code in. You want kdelive, well install it via flatpak. Nowadays you have snap, flatpak and appimages to install the latest applications. If such application crashes, it's easy to remove whitout compromise your system.
48 • Debian (by penguinx86 on 2021-08-23 21:04:36 GMT from United States)
I'd like to run Debian on my laptop, but it doesn't include compatible wifi adapter drivers.
Same problem with Ubuntu. I tried lots of other distros on multiple hardware platforms, but most of them have the same wifi driver incompatibility issues. Now I use Linux Mint Xfce, which is Ubuntu/Debian based. It recognizes all of my hardware, with no driver hassles. The only way I can get Debian to work on my laptop is to run it as a guest OS using Virtialbox and Linux Mint as the host OS. I think the problem is most wifi adapters require non-free drivers, which aren't included on most open source distro install media.
49 • Debian (by marty on 2021-08-23 21:09:51 GMT from United States)
I've been running a Debian based OS for 3 years; no intention of returning to Windows.
50 • Debian (by Inxs on 2021-08-23 21:33:25 GMT from Portugal)
Debian is becoming everything and nothing. For example having all drivers offline and no program to install it automatically. Why not Slackware, Gentoo ? Because Debian is becoming that, day after day. A niche Distribution because no one risks anything. Its a piety.
51 • Debian live CDs use the Calamres installer (by eco2geek on 2021-08-23 22:09:11 GMT from United States)
As @29 Dave mentioned, the live CDs come with the Calamares installer, which is much easier to use than the regular Debian installer.
(Debian's "regular" installer is pretty much the same whether you run its ncurses variant or its GUI variant. Here, the GUI version just has prettier fonts :-).
In my opinion, Jessie's right about all the work one has to do to configure a new Debian installation. But (you knew that was coming) it seems to me that a lot of the configuration in the review involved setting up GNOME, not Debian proper. And that's not Debian's fault.
I haven't upgraded to Bullseye yet but I've been running it from live media, and it's both solid and doesn't use all that much memory. I'm looking forward to it.
52 • debian (by dave on 2021-08-23 22:56:29 GMT from United States)
I started using Linux in 2004 (Ubuntu). Went back to Windows XP for about 6 months, then back to Ubuntu. Used vanilla Ubuntu til 2010-11 or whenever it was that Unity & Gnome 3 came out.. then switched to Xubuntu. This was the period when I did the most distro hopping and desktop experimentation. Mostly bounced around between Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Crunchbang and Debian. Most of the time split between Xubuntu and Debian w/ Xfce.
For a long time I had a customized Ubuntu install using stand-alone Compiz with no window decorations. (used the two mouse thumb buttons for move and resize; worked like a dream) Did the same thing on Debian for a bit, but the configuration quickly fell apart after Canonical ruined Compiz. Also used Compiz with Xfce or elements of Xfce.. basically clung to Compiz until it was absolutely unusable.
When the systemd era set in, I bounced between Devuan and AntiX until settling on AntiX for a couple years. Then I had some showstopping trouble with it in 2019 and so finally decided to give MX a shot. Still using it today, but I'd like to switch back to AntiX or Devuan one of these days.. but I will admit that my confidence in Linux has waned to the point that I'm trying to get myself to figure out OpenBSD. I know I can do it, but I know it'll take some work and I don't have as much computer enthusiasm as I once did. The dark nexus of software and politics has taken a serious toll on my soul. Debian lies near the center of those misgivings.
I have shortly goofed around with Arch, Manjaro, Alpine and some others, but never for any significant length of time. Despite a definite sense of betrayal, I still hang out downstream from Debian.
53 • Debian use (by Jimbo in NZ on 2021-08-23 23:00:48 GMT from New Zealand)
I currently use Debian + Cinnamon + Nonfree unofficial iso from here:
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
All defaults are sane and perfectly usable - and uses Debian Testing stream so much more up to date than Mint Debian or Debian Stable.
I currently use it under my TV on an SFF desktop for all TV viewing and is stable and solid, laptop and 1 home file server that's also running a Retropie x86 build on Debian as well.
On my opnsense firewall I have a local apt cache enabled - so all downloads check this for updates first (and download only once)
54 • non-free (by Mike Simms on 2021-08-23 23:43:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
@44 Fedora ships with some limited non-free but not all on the ISO. There are still many wireless adaptors (mostly broadcom, ralink and realtek usb hosted ones but some PCIe are affected too) that are unsupported by Fedora Workstation ISO for which you need to source firmware packages from one either their own repository or one of the community maintained repositories.
The critical difference being that Fedora does contain opensource radeon and amdgpu blobs whereas Debian doesn't. This is crazy really on Debian's part to exclude the display drivers.
I understand they just want to keep it free of closed source but amd have had opensource builds of radeon and amdgpu available for some time now. The closed source amdgpu-pro is only available from amd's website.
55 • Debian (by Dan on 2021-08-23 23:45:36 GMT from Australia)
I still find Debian is the fastest base distro. When I was distro hopping a couple of years ago I had moved through 'daily drivers' of Antergos, Opensuse, SparkyLinux, MXLinux, Manjaro, Solus, ArcoLinux etc.
But in the end I've gone back to and stuck with Sparky (MinimalGUI): Debian's speed and stability, packages from the Testing branch and just enough useful additions out of the box that I can tweak as needed without up-front work.
And I game a lot, but with Steam's work on Proton, Lutris etc I've only had very few issues, it's come a long way from just a few years ago!
56 • Thank You... (by John on 2021-08-24 01:19:27 GMT from Australia)
Jesse, I found this review really interesting and has stimulated a lot of discussion and (as usual) generated a lot of opinion. Why? So many of us use and OS based on Debian. I want to openly express my thanks for all the Debian team for the work that you do. So many of us rely on you and are truly grateful for what you do. Well done!
57 • @12, I'm with you, when it comes to rolling operating systems (by RJA on 2021-08-24 01:20:39 GMT from United States)
"its like building a castle(of knowledge) on moving sand"-> This is why lean away from rolling distros. Except for Windows 10, I never regularly used a rolling system. Even for Windows, I feel like someone could make a major whoops and thus I get a corrupted operating system!
58 • Debian (by Romane on 2021-08-24 04:47:22 GMT from Australia)
Have been running Debian since Lenny became testing - what's that, about 10 years now? Stayed on the Testing line the whole time, and found no problems or upsets.
Used to trial many distros of all persuasions over these ten odd years or so, but for one reason or another, only trial Debian-based now. Not and never Ubuntu nor any of its derivatives (personal preference only, have never liked Ubuntu from day one). Have found that still prefer Debian itself; non of its derivatives quite suit my way of working, always some paper-cut(s) not found by self in Debian.
Why Debian? Partially because am comfortable with it as one is with an old, long-time and trusted friend. Partially because find that it perfectly suits how one works. Yes, it can be seen as a touch bland, but have found that Testing provides me with a good compromise between reasonably up-to-date packages and long-term stable and reliable packages.
Romane
59 • Debian on my desktop and my laptop (by Thomas Hasse on 2021-08-24 07:37:38 GMT from Germany)
Hi all together, I am running a linux only system (Debian) on my desktop since 2004 and some years later as well on my laptop. My motto: "Give Gates no chance." In a virtual machine I am running and watching other linux distributions. One of the latest interesting is the Arch Linux based EndeavourOS. It has more actual packages than Debain but at the moment there is no reason to switch over to that distro while it is possible to get newer apps over flatpak. Thomas
60 • Debian based distros (by DaveT on 2021-08-24 13:37:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
At work we use bog-standard debian on servers and on the desktop.
At home I use Devuan to avoid systemd and raspberrypi because I haven't got around to replacing it yet.
Debian sid on the desktop works fine, just don't let it anywhere near your servers!
61 • Debian (by Ascii on 2021-08-24 14:47:11 GMT from Canada)
The comments about getting newer software with flatpaks et al doesn't work for desktop environments, however.
I'd like KDE 5.21(+). So I have to look elsewhere for an OS
62 • KDE Neon (by Mike Simms on 2021-08-24 15:59:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
@61 try KDE Neon then if you haven't already. It's usually quite stable and in the last few years of usage I've only ever had an issue with KDE Connect sometimes crashing when connecting to a paired device when running Neon. That is partly to be expected though as it is essentially bleeding edge.
Failing that stick with a rolling distribution like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Endeavour OS for example
63 • Debian 11 or GNOME review? (by Adam on 2021-08-24 19:21:26 GMT from France)
I've run Debian on the desktop since Woody and almost always with KDE as I can't get on with GNOME. I thought the review started well until it got to the GNOME bit. Plenty of people run Debian with one of the other desktop environments as standard or none at all. I know Gnome is the "default" but I I don't actually think the majority of Debian systems are actually using it - possibly because many aren't running X or Wayland at all as they are servers.....
Trying not to be critical, but Debian is so vast with so many options, it's a bit unfair to dwell so much on the GNOME element of it. Try one of the other standard flavours you may find them quite different?
64 • Do you run Debian (by Bill Donnelly on 2021-08-24 21:34:04 GMT from Canada)
Yes I do. Started with Debian 5 and now running Debian 11. Other distros that I have run successfully is openSUSE Leap and Endeavour OS as well as MX-Linux. All are great distros.
65 • Linux in general is.... (by Otis on 2021-08-24 21:43:18 GMT from United States)
....Debian, if we go by percentages of that distro or its derivitives use in the Linux world. Whatever they began and do (oh so stale if you run stable edition) works for most. Those who use others and "others" derivitieves, well, hang in there, but Debian and its family will likely come getcha.
over 80% Debian as a desktop, server or in a variety of roles. My my.
66 • Debian and derivatives (by AdamB on 2021-08-24 22:43:07 GMT from Australia)
Over the years, most of my computers have run Debian derivatives - Ubuntu (with Gnome 2), Mint MATE, Ubuntu Mate, Raspbian Lite, full Raspbian, MX Linux, Q4OS-Trinity.
But I am now gravitating towards the Stable and Testing versions of Debian and Devuan - most of my machines do not need the latest software, and it is good not to need to reboot constantly after software updates.
I have a machine which can be booted into Arch or Void for up-to-date software.
67 • Debian and derivatives (by Bob H on 2021-08-24 23:33:26 GMT from United States)
Discovered Linux in the late '90s with RedHat. Was pretty primitive then but with a lot of promise. But so was Windows...
Came back to Linux around 2014 trying out Debian based Trisquel. Installations were a lot more automatic.
Have been using Ubuntu since 2016 (Studio in particular). Everything seems very solid. Use it for daily driver as well as audio visual hobbies. Prefer it over Window which I hardly ever use at home.
68 • Sparky (by Pumpino on 2021-08-25 02:28:21 GMT from Australia)
After installing Debian Testing yesterday, I tried Sparky today. It seems much more polished and its additional repo provides the latest 5.13.12 kernel and Firefox, among others, which makes it more appealing to me. I use XFCE, so I don't have to worry too much about new versions of my desktop environment being released, as is the case with KDE in particular. I can use Flatpaks for desktop apps that still haven't been updated in Debian Testing.
69 • Personal choice (by Kosynier on 2021-08-25 07:24:43 GMT from Poland)
My first linux distro 13 years ago was Suse and today I use Sparkylinux. I have tried Debian at some point but I will stick to Sparky. Debian installs fine, it is usable and I could use it. But I've realized that my process of making Debian usable to my preferences and needs was to make it a clone of a Sparky. I couldn't make it as small as Sparky: 4.2GB with all apps. Also, I didn't get rid of those ugly highlights of folder names on XFCE desktop (now gone in Debian 11). It took too much work - to achieve something that I have already got. Sparkylinux is also a bit raw, but making it mine is hassle free, especially that I don't make any re-installations: I use three different sparky.img images that I clone with dd command. When you start with MinimalGUI and use desktop choices from APTus, then you can make a system that fits you entirely and the process is really enjoyable.
70 • Searching to fix problems (by Livestradamus on 2021-08-25 13:52:54 GMT from Luxembourg)
Thanks to debian if running across any problem, search results that on how to fix a problem on linux and it returns with 'apt' or 'systemctl'.
71 • Debian + Sis Mirage Graphics (by Kosynier on 2021-08-25 16:13:10 GMT from Poland)
I wrote it installs fine, but not that much as other distros. I have a laptop with SiS Mirage 3 Graphics. Most distros can be installed but none of them displays the correct screen resolution. Finally, I have found a bash script on Github with a driver, so at least it is usable, although not perfect. But guess what: Debian is one of the few distros that don't work (along Mageia, Manjaro). During the first start after installation it is stuck at "simple display manager". I am talking about the big firmware iso...
72 • Debian (by VE on 2021-08-25 17:00:48 GMT from United States)
Any review of Debian on the desktop is likely to leave out where it really shines: the upgrade process. The fact that so little changes in the default install means you can upgrade from one major release to the next and barely even notice. It takes a while to get things set up and configured the way you like the first time but you only have to it once. As long as you don't screw your system up with third party packages, your hardware will give out before you need to reinstall.
73 • Debian (by GreginNC on 2021-08-25 22:00:22 GMT from United States)
Many years ago I ran Debian for several months. I didn't stick with it for one reason. At the time Debian would reset you system clock to UTC on every reboot. At first you could disable it in a config file, but the Debian devs soon disabled that file so it did nothing. I asked in the Debian forum for a fix as I multibooted with Win and another distro which really messed things up as both used local time. I actually got a response from a dev, he simple responded "everyone should use UTC" and nothing more. I abandoned Debian on that day and will never use it or a derivative going forward. My way or the hiway just doesn't cut it with me.
74 • Re. Debian by GreginNC (by Pumpino on 2021-08-26 00:30:57 GMT from Australia)
It's funny you should mention that. When I installed Debian Testing this week, it asked whether I wanted to use UTC or not during the installation. I chose no due to running other distros on the machine. It set it to UTC anyway and the times were wrong in the other distros. So much for Debian being bug-free and stable. Not so if the issue has been present for years and the option hasn't been removed from the installer.
As for the dev's response, I've always found that the Debian community has an elitest mentality. It's quite a turn-off, especially when other distros have such friendly communities.
75 • I see a pattern developing here. (by Trihexagonal on 2021-08-26 15:36:40 GMT from United States)
I have honestly never heard anyone refer to Debian as being Difficult to set up or run, but spend little time in the Linux Community. To see Debian referred to in the same context as Arch or Gentoo doesn't mean Debian got harder or they got easier.
It's the Computer Community user base in general that's changing. For the worse. Trial balloons being floated to test community reaction to what the majority now sees as being hard.
.
The pattern I'm seeing is people starting to talk about Debian like they do FreeBSD. Both in Pro and Cons argument.
@28 dragonmouth
Each to his own. What you call "unpolished" I call "convenient". With all those settings, Debian is like a DIY distro (LFS, Gentoo) but without all the compiling. I want to use Linux set up the way I like/need, not the way some developer thinks is good for me.
I knew you had the makings of a FreeBSD user! That's the same argument I use just a couple weeks ago here in favor of FreeBSD.
@33 Matt
It is the best general purpose operating system in my opinion. It succeeds as a general purpose operating system, but doesn't really succeed for the general purpose user.
I'm a general purpose desktop user using FreeBSD as a general purpose desktop but probably not your average user. It's the definition of what constitutes a general user that seems in flux.
@51 eco2geek
In my opinion, Jessie's right about all the work one has to do to configure a new Debian installation. But (you knew that was coming) it seems to me that a lot of the configuration in the review involved setting up GNOME, not Debian proper. And that's not Debian's fault.
You are absolutely right. Gnome is considered 3rd party software and not included in the FreeBSD Base System.
It's an overall reflection in the user base attitude, or attributes, after years of having things dumbed down for them. And if Debian is too hard, what chance do you stand of using Arch, Gentoo, or BSD?
76 • Debian Stale (by Justin on 2021-08-26 18:08:30 GMT from United States)
Old != stable. Look at the bugs newer distributions have. In a few years, they will be coming to a Debian near you.
77 • @76 (by Hoos on 2021-08-27 06:46:51 GMT from Singapore)
" In a few years, they will be coming to a Debian near you. "
I can't tell if that is a serious remark or not.
Obviously it depends on whether those bugs have been resolved and what packages are in play, at the time which the next Debian Testing is frozen in preparation for next-Stable. And also what sort of fixes are allowed in after the freeze.
Speaking as someone who runs both Debian Stable-based and Arch-based distros, I see benefits in both.
For newer and rolling distributions, you get new package versions very quickly, with changes/new features that you hopefully like. But you also need to suffer through bugs in these new versions, though fixes and patches for more popular packages can also come quickly to resolve these issues.
Debian Stable - except for security patches, you're often stuck with the package versions in play at the time of the freeze. So as that Stable release ages over the next few years, the packages can get older at times.
On the other hand, if the packages/applications in Debian Stable -- though older -- are working nicely without any bugs, you don't get to suffer through all the upheaval and growing pains of, say, a significant new release of an application that has reached the shores of a rolling distro.
Not every user needs new features in their familiar applications, and some might not even like how a familiar application has been revamped in the latest version which hasn't reached Debian Stable yet.
So those users will be happy to let the issues and bugs be ironed out by the rolling distro users, so that what is eventually released in the next Debian Stable will be much more usable out of the box.
78 • @77 (by Justin on 2021-08-27 18:14:53 GMT from United States)
The comment was meant seriously, though in a slightly humorous way.
Like you said, it depends when the freeze happens. Ubuntu and Mint are the same way. Bugs can appear in releases that get fixed in future snapshots, but unless they are security-related, they may never be updated. You can then have an LTS release "lock in" the bugs. This has happened to me before, and it was annoying to find out a bug was fixed like a year earlier or more, but the day after the snapshot was taken. Also, if developers move on to major release versions, bugs in the existing release line also never get fixed and may not be pulled into a release depending on timing.
I also use both Debian-based distros and Arch. I appreciate the _consistency_ of Debian, which I think people also conflate with stability. There's no magic to Debian just like there is no magic to Arch. New != unstable. One group tries to fix security things on top of something people believe to be bug free. Another group takes what developers give and don't make changes that could cause problems or reduce performance. Both philosophies work, and I appreciate having both when one or the other suits my needs.
79 • used Debian? (by Jeff on 2021-08-28 00:30:41 GMT from United States)
About 10-12 years ago I did use Debian for a few years.
I have come to consider Debian to be more of a kit to build distros with than a finished distro.
I want to use my computer not spend all my time setting it up.
These days I mostly use MX Linux which is Debian based, one reason is the devs will backport packages of newer software for it, so if there is a bug fix that happens after the freeze you can get it.
Yes, Debian does have unofficial ISOs with non-free firmware, but they make you go down a poorly marked dark alley into the ghetto to get it.
This is not so much for legal reasons, but because there is a large Stallmanite faction in Debian.
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| • Issue 1064 (2024-04-01): NixOS 23.11, the status of Hurd, liblzma compromised upstream, FreeBSD Foundation focuses on improving wireless networking, Ubuntu Pro offers 12 years of support |
| • Issue 1063 (2024-03-25): Redcore Linux 2401, how slowly can a rolling release update, Debian starts new Project Leader election, Red Hat creating new NVIDIA driver, Snap store hit with more malware |
| • Issue 1062 (2024-03-18): KDE neon 20240304, changing file permissions, Canonical turns 20, Pop!_OS creates new software centre, openSUSE packages Plasma 6 |
| • Issue 1061 (2024-03-11): Using a PinePhone as a workstation, restarting background services on a schedule, NixBSD ports Nix to FreeBSD, Fedora packaging COSMIC, postmarketOS to adopt systemd, Linux Mint replacing HexChat |
| • Issue 1060 (2024-03-04): AV Linux MX-23.1, bootstrapping a network connection, key OpenBSD features, Qubes certifies new hardware, LXQt and Plasma migrate to Qt 6 |
| • Issue 1059 (2024-02-26): Warp Terminal, navigating manual pages, malware found in the Snap store, Red Hat considering CPU requirement update, UBports organizes ongoing work |
| • Issue 1058 (2024-02-19): Drauger OS 7.6, how much disk space to allocate, System76 prepares to launch COSMIC desktop, UBports changes its version scheme, TrueNAS to offer faster deduplication |
| • Issue 1057 (2024-02-12): Adelie Linux 1.0 Beta, rolling release vs fixed for a smoother experience, Debian working on 2038 bug, elementary OS to split applications from base system updates, Fedora announces Atomic Desktops |
| • Issue 1056 (2024-02-05): wattOS R13, the various write speeds of ISO writing tools, DSL returns, Mint faces Wayland challenges, HardenedBSD blocks foreign USB devices, Gentoo publishes new repository, Linux distros patch glibc flaw |
| • Issue 1055 (2024-01-29): CNIX OS 231204, distributions patching packages the most, Gentoo team presents ongoing work, UBports introduces connectivity and battery improvements, interview with Haiku developer |
| • Issue 1054 (2024-01-22): Solus 4.5, comparing dd and cp when writing ISO files, openSUSE plans new major Leap version, XeroLinux shutting down, HardenedBSD changes its build schedule |
| • Issue 1053 (2024-01-15): Linux AI voice assistants, some distributions running hotter than others, UBports talks about coming changes, Qubes certifies StarBook laptops, Asahi Linux improves energy savings |
| • Issue 1052 (2024-01-08): OpenMandriva Lx 5.0, keeping shell commands running when theterminal closes, Mint upgrades Edge kernel, Vanilla OS plans big changes, Canonical working to make Snap more cross-platform |
| • Issue 1051 (2024-01-01): Favourite distros of 2023, reloading shell settings, Asahi Linux releases Fedora remix, Gentoo offers binary packages, openSUSE provides full disk encryption |
| • Issue 1050 (2023-12-18): rlxos 2023.11, renaming files and opening terminal windows in specific directories, TrueNAS publishes ZFS fixes, Debian publishes delayed install media, Haiku polishes desktop experience |
| • Issue 1049 (2023-12-11): Lernstick 12, alternatives to WINE, openSUSE updates its branding, Mint unveils new features, Lubuntu team plans for 24.04 |
| • Issue 1048 (2023-12-04): openSUSE MicroOS, the transition from X11 to Wayland, Red Hat phasing out X11 packages, UBports making mobile development easier |
| • Issue 1047 (2023-11-27): GhostBSD 23.10.1, Why Linux uses swap when memory is free, Ubuntu Budgie may benefit from Wayland work in Xfce, early issues with FreeBSD 14.0 |
| • Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
| • Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
| • Issue 1044 (2023-11-06): Porteus 5.01, disabling IPv6, applications unique to a Linux distro, Linux merges bcachefs, OpenELA makes source packages available |
| • Issue 1043 (2023-10-30): Murena Two with privacy switches, where old files go when packages are updated, UBports on Volla phones, Mint testing Cinnamon on Wayland, Peppermint releases ARM build |
| • Issue 1042 (2023-10-23): Ubuntu Cinnamon compared with Linux Mint, extending battery life on Linux, Debian resumes /usr merge, Canonical publishes fixed install media |
| • Issue 1041 (2023-10-16): FydeOS 17.0, Dr.Parted 23.09, changing UIDs, Fedora partners with Slimbook, GNOME phasing out X11 sessions, Ubuntu revokes 23.10 install media |
| • Issue 1040 (2023-10-09): CROWZ 5.0, changing the location of default directories, Linux Mint updates its Edge edition, Murena crowdfunding new privacy phone, Debian publishes new install media |
| • Issue 1039 (2023-10-02): Zenwalk Current, finding the duration of media files, Peppermint OS tries out new edition, COSMIC gains new features, Canonical reports on security incident in Snap store |
| • Issue 1038 (2023-09-25): Mageia 9, trouble-shooting launchers, running desktop Linux in the cloud, New documentation for Nix, Linux phasing out ReiserFS, GNU celebrates 40 years |
| • Issue 1037 (2023-09-18): Bodhi Linux 7.0.0, finding specific distros and unified package managemnt, Zevenet replaced by two new forks, openSUSE introduces Slowroll branch, Fedora considering dropping Plasma X11 session |
| • Issue 1036 (2023-09-11): SDesk 2023.08.12, hiding command line passwords, openSUSE shares contributor survery results, Ubuntu plans seamless disk encryption, GNOME 45 to break extension compatibility |
| • Issue 1035 (2023-09-04): Debian GNU/Hurd 2023, PCLinuxOS 2023.07, do home users need a firewall, AlmaLinux introduces new repositories, Rocky Linux commits to RHEL compatibility, NetBSD machine runs unattended for nine years, Armbian runs wallpaper contest |
| • Issue 1034 (2023-08-28): Void 20230628, types of memory usage, FreeBSD receives port of Linux NVIDIA driver, Fedora plans improved theme handling for Qt applications, Canonical's plans for Ubuntu |
| • Issue 1033 (2023-08-21): MiniOS 20230606, system user accounts, how Red Hat clones are moving forward, Haiku improves WINE performance, Debian turns 30 |
| • Full list of all issues |
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Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
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| Random Distribution | 
FreeSBIE - FreeBSD Live CD
FreeSBIE was a live system on CD, or an operating system that was able to load directly from a bootable CD, without any installation process, without any hard disk. It's based on the FreeBSD operating system. FreeSBIE project goals are mainly two: to develop a suite of programs to be used to create your own CD, with all the personalisations you like, and to make various ISO images available, maybe each one with different goals and possible uses. The project was developed by the main Italian FreeBSD User Group: GUFI.
Status: Discontinued
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TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
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| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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