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1 • Bedrock (by Bob on 2021-07-05 00:48:08 GMT from United States)
The poll is missing one more option: I have not tried Bedrock, but plan to in the near future.
Great review, Jesse.
2 • Bedrock (by vern on 2021-07-05 01:04:13 GMT from United States)
Bedrock sounds like a "Rube Goldberg machine". No thanks. But the review was excellent.
NuTyX shutting down is a reason to choose your distro carefully.
3 • bedrock (by pappito on 2021-07-05 01:49:31 GMT from Singapore)
I thought for a moment Rocky went retro and it took a while for both names to register in my head. I can't say I am too keen on a frankendistro that I will likely make a bigger mess of than I already do with a single distro.
quite a shame about nutyx as it's one less option. but then again, it's one less dilution.
4 • NuTyX (by Stan on 2021-07-05 02:13:01 GMT from United States)
Shutting down? They just released a new version. And their website has removed references to their demise. A change of heart?
5 • Isolation from bad programs; BSD & Linux (by Greg Zeng on 2021-07-05 02:16:36 GMT from Australia)
> " ... Individual programs may misbehave so there needs to be a layer the operating system can wrap around them to isolate poorly functioning code from causing damage. This approach is well suited to an environment with little coordination or control over the individual pieces. ... "
The Q&A section this week is the start of a much bigger puzzle.The more popular operating systems (Windows, Apple, Android) have these problems also. Their "application packages" are more used, but how do they differ from each other? In Linux, we have a very confusing set of "application packages". Traditional Linux forced users to compile from source code; a tedious & highly skilled technique (including AUR).
So then RPM, DEB, "puppy", snap, flatpak, appimage, etc. All these applications have shared problems: dependent libraries, update of parts of whole applications, sensitivity to hardware, user & usage, error recovery, etc.Then Linux has "containers" & many forms of complex virtualizations, emulators, etc.
Thank you for trying to decipher some confusion. The next step might be to translate this Linux mess, so that more people; like myself can also understand.
6 • bedrock etc. (by Adina on 2021-07-05 03:59:12 GMT from United States)
Yet another misguided solution born from the misconception that Arch has weaknesses that all other community distros don't also have.
7 • Bedrock (by Ali on 2021-07-05 04:51:32 GMT from Iran)
@Jesse
In addition to not integrating to application menu, did packages from secondary distributions follow the theme of primary desktop? I found this an issue during my test of earlier versions of Bedrock. This is also the the problem of some cross-distro package managers like Nix. Application looks ugly and there is no clear method to make them use desktop theme. I think, with spreading usage of flatpak and snap,technologies like Bedrock and Nix package manager are loosing their niche.
8 • Bedrock Linux sounds cool but... (by Bobbie Sellers on 2021-07-05 06:32:06 GMT from United States)
It is interesting I but is it ready for casual use? I rather doubt it.
If it was easy to find as a download I might even try the beta in VirtualBox
but I did not spot the .iso file or .img file in much too long an exploration
of its site reading introductory material but finding no image.
By the way I have tried Qubes but I found it confusing as I lose the
ability to multitask a bit more every day.
Better news is the fresh release of PCLinuxOS 64 2021 iso files.
But will get back to you on that.
bliss- - “Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.” After all here I am...
9 • Flatpack, snap etc vs distro's package manager (by far2fish on 2021-07-05 07:08:33 GMT from Denmark)
Have anyone seen any poll (either on DW) or elsewhere that gauge the usage of how popular installing software as snap or flakpack are versus installing builds targeting the distro's native package manager (like apt or yum) ?
10 • Bedrock (by Jesse on 2021-07-05 10:25:13 GMT from Canada)
@7: "In addition to not integrating to application menu, did packages from secondary distributions follow the theme of primary desktop?"
Yes, if I remember correctly regular packages (those pulled from repositories) did. But I don't think Flatpaks followed the host distro's theme.
@8: "If it was easy to find as a download I might even try the beta in VirtualBox
but I did not spot the .iso file or .img file in much too long an exploration
of its site reading introductory material but finding no image."
There is no ISO or IMG file for Bedrock. As I mentioned in the review, Bedrock is set up by running a script on an existing distribution. It's not an operating system which is installed. It's a meta-distro which uses a script to "take over" an existing distro.
@9: Yes, we ran a poll on that topic. https://distrowatch.com/polls.php?poll=116
11 • Flatpack, snap etc vs distro's package manager (by Tim on 2021-07-05 12:26:54 GMT from United States)
@far2fish, that is an excellent recommendation for a poll.
As for myself, one of my hosts runs Fedora 34. Fedora seems to be moving more decidedly toward Flatpak. I prefer traditional package management and shared libraries. I think they are going to force me to choose another distro.
12 • @11 Tim: (by dragonmouth on 2021-07-05 13:15:03 GMT from United States)
What is the difference, as far as you are concerned, between Flatpack and ,rpm's? Why prefer the latter to the former? They were both developed by Red Hat, with Flatpaks having a more universal usage.
13 • Bedrock... (by Cheker on 2021-07-05 13:26:45 GMT from Portugal)
...sounds like an interesting experiment. The way you describe it makes me think of containers, except that the different strats don't sound like they're isolated per se
14 • rocking on beds (by fonz on 2021-07-05 17:31:26 GMT from Indonesia)
@1 yep, shouldve had another option to try bedrock in the near future. the review was awesome, the 3rd paragraph starting on debian > something > AUR really hit me, itd be amazing to try out all the new possibilities. modding games has been my hobby for +10 years (nowadays my kids are my hobby :D), modding systems with bedrock might be my new itch to scratch. of course playing it safe in a VM before real usage. huge kudos to the review, it disproves 'you cant teach an old dog new tricks' like a few weeks ago with magic sysrq keys...
nutyx sounds like an awesome project. after reading the release 20 review on here, allowing init diversity (or fragmentation LOL) should be held. if nutyx can do it, why cant the big boys amirite? i havent tried it personally, but i have tried LFS and failed big time. hopefully bedrock might pick it up as a starting grounds, maybe...
15 • pledge/unveil (by John on 2021-07-05 21:43:10 GMT from Canada)
I did read in LWN about something called "Landlock". That seems similar to Pledge/Unveil, but as mentioned it will probably be hard to use that everywhere. This is the article from June 17:
https://lwn.net/Articles/859908/
16 • @12 regarding flatpack etc (by far2fish on 2021-07-05 21:51:27 GMT from Denmark)
I know you asked Tim, but I will reply too on the same question.
I have admittedly never tried flatpack. My main distro is Fedora. A few months back I installed Ubuntu on another laptop and tried some software installed through snap and then the same software from apt. I don’t recall all apps I tried, but Firefox and vs code was probably among them. For the apps I tried the startup time in snap was horrible compared to the same apps when I installed using apt on the same laptop. It was not a good experience. My selection of applications might not have been representative for snap in general, but it left me a bit baffled why performance was that bad. Laptop specs i5 cpu and 16gb ram, Ubuntu desktop default install.
17 • Won't use Bedrock (by penguinx86 on 2021-07-05 22:30:34 GMT from United States)
Bedrock is a nice idea, but seems too complicated and difficult to troubleshoot if something goes wrong. I'll stick with VirtualBox and virtual machines running on my primary OS Linux Mint Xfce. If something goes wrong with a virtual machine, I can simply delete it and reinstall it without affecting my main OS.
18 • Bedrock works (by Andy Prough on 2021-07-06 03:24:40 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the detailed instructions, Jesse. I installed Devuan, then installed the hijack script for Bedrock, then installed the Void strata on top of it with "brl fetch void". That whole process of installing everything from scratch took about 15 minutes.
Then I used "sudo xbps-install okular" and "sudo xbps-install galculator" to install okular and galculator with the void strata. Both installed quickly and worked great. Void's repo has the most recent version of okular, version 21.04.2, whereas Devuan packages the much older 17.12.2 version, so when I opened it and saw that it was the Void 21.04.2 version I thought that was very cool! I'm going to need to keep trying this out, it's really quite interesting. CPU and memory usage looks the same as with native Devuan packages, so this could be incredibly useful.
19 • Missing application menu entries (by Andre on 2021-07-06 05:04:29 GMT from Canada)
I don't use Bedrock Linux, but you might be able to get your desktop environment to find all of the applications you have installed, regardless of strata, by explicitly setting the XDG_DATA_DIRS environment variable. For example:
export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/bedrock/strata/arch/usr/share:/bedrock/strata/ubuntu/usr/share:/usr/share
I think most desktop environments support this env var nowadays; or, at least, the ones I've tried do.
20 • More about Bedrock (by Andy Prough on 2021-07-06 13:13:40 GMT from United States)
After experimenting with it a bit, I think the killer feature is the ability to have a regular Devuan Beowulf installation with all of its stable, older software as the base, and then using "brl fetch -n myceres -r ceres devuan" to add ceres (similar to Debian unstable Sid) as a strata. Then you can install any of the newer software from the unstable ceres repo as root with "strat myceres apt install [packagename]". This way you get the stable Devuan base and the newer, unstable programs you need co-existing very nicely together.
21 • Bedrock (by Ankleface Wroughlandmire on 2021-07-06 14:14:47 GMT from Ecuador)
Thanks for the review Jesse. I've been intrigued every time you review Bedrock. For me, the fact that it doesn't automatically integrate the .desktop files for programs added from the add-on distro is a major limitation, hopefully they'll address that at some point.
22 • I might try Bedrock (by mmphosis on 2021-07-06 17:22:35 GMT from Canada)
@17 I also like the idea of Bedrock. My method is not as simple as using a VM. I multi-boot from a grub menu of OSes (and ISOs) that I can install and delete. If I had a "primary" OS it would probably be Linux Mint. If too many things go wrong with an OS, I delete it.
23 • Maybe this spagetti would be better with ice cream on top, and a pickle (by Trihexagonal on 2021-07-07 09:32:42 GMT from United States)
In all seriousness, the Bedrock idea sounds like a disaster to me. In regard to Jesse's statement:
"Bedrock Linux seeks to reverse, or at least offer an alternative, to fragmentation."
Piling different distros that have gone their own way together and adding some "glue" like the Bedrock script to bring things back together does not seem the path to making Linux whole. It sounds like the above. To me.
Like you're hungry for something but you just don't know what you're hungry for, To coin commercial. Tried vanilla lately? As a PC-BSD user I switched to "vanilla" FreeBSD, and that's what we referred to it as.
Sixteen years and 31 flavors later, BaskenRobbinsOS is no more. Vanilla is still around and so am I.
Vanilla being the same thing as what @5 referred to:
"Traditional Linux" forced users to compile from source code; a tedious & highly skilled technique (including AUR).
It's not for everybody and neither is compiling 3rd party programs from source. It is time consuming, can be tedious when the build of one program conflicts with the another and a learned skill in problem solving that only comes from experience.
A skill I struggled with to learn and taught myself while a PC-BSD user of great value looking back on how little I knew about FreeBSD at the time. To have given up and stayed with what was supposed to be easier, failure worthy of seppuku.
I used Linux years before I started using FreeBSD and with 8 laptops find a place for one based on Debian that is running right beside me as I type on my FreeBSD 12.2 box. I'm perfectly comfortable with apt-get and SystemD is not the bugbear for me it is for some. I don't want to make it something it's not and if I didn't like it the way it was I wouldn't use it.
But you are not me and your preference does not have to be mine or make you wrong because it is not. I'd rather have vanilla Yoplait yogurt to be honest.
I liked the article about Porting OpenBSD security features to Linux. I haven't used OpenBSD in 2-3 years or heard of pledge and unveil. It was informative in the comparison of the different paradigm in security and a good work in writing overall.
You are a workhorse.
24 • @10 The Snap and Flatpak Poll quoted by Jesse... (by Ghost 67 on 2021-07-07 12:55:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Jesse, the poll you quote is from way back in DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 727 (28 August 2017). I would argue that the results would be wildly different if the same poll was taken today. Is it possible that it can be re-run so we may gauge if the uptake of Snaps and Flatpaks has improved?
25 • Bedrock for Embedded Development (by Kyle on 2021-07-07 13:10:42 GMT from United States)
I don't think I would find Bedrock Linux very useful for my personal systems, but I wonder if it could be helpful in the context of developing embedded software? Some of the software I work on for my job is built on Linux host systems. Embedded software takes the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy to an extreme, so some of the tools haven't been updated in years, sometimes over a decade. This leaves my team in an awkward position where our development software only officially supports versions of Linux distributions that have long ago lost their own official support.
If we can find (or make) Bedrock strata for some of those old distributions, we might be able to install the bare minimum libraries and utilities to run our compilers on top of modern distributions. That could reduce or even eliminate our need for different virtual machines, in addition to simply gaining access to the features in the latest releases of IDEs and other such software available in the base OS. It looks like Bedrock has some extensive documentation on adding new distributions, so it might be feasible with a bit of effort.
26 • bedrock linux opinion poll (by george on 2021-07-09 01:25:24 GMT from United States)
Wish there had been an option for "Have not used, but will try soon".
Number of Comments: 26
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| • Issue 1039 (2023-10-02): Zenwalk Current, finding the duration of media files, Peppermint OS tries out new edition, COSMIC gains new features, Canonical reports on security incident in Snap store |
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