 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 902, 1 February 2021 |
Welcome to this year's 5th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
The big news this past week related to a vulnerability in sudo, a program included in most Linux distributions which is typically used to grant regular users administrative access. We talk about this exploit and the major distributions responding to it in our News section. Plus we share news that the next version of Ubuntu will default to using a Wayland session while FreeBSD demotes the i386 CPU architecture. First though we talk about two distributions which follow the keep-it-simple (KIS) principle. This style of distribution strives to keep the technical aspects of the operating system less complex, though it sometimes means more work for the computer's user. We talk about these two projects, Kwort and SulinOS, in this week's Feature Story. How do you feel about KIS distributions? Do you run one of these complex-avoiding operating systems? Let us know in our Opinion Poll and tell us about your experiences with KIS distributions in the comments. In our Questions and Answers column, we switch gears and talk about project licensing, specifically how the Qt toolkit is licensed and distributed. Qt is the backbone of several desktop environments, including KDE Plasma, and many desktop applications. This week we are pleased to share a list of recent releases and link to the torrents we are seeding. We are also thrilled to welcome the Diamond Linux-TT, a Debian-based desktop distribution, to our database. We wish you all a fantastic week and happy reading!
Content:
- Review: Kwort Linux 4.3.5, SulinOS
- News: Serious sudo vulnerability patched, new Tails media published, Ubuntu tries Wayland as the default display manager, FreeBSD demotes i386
- Questions and answers: Qt licensing concerns
- Released last week: Tails 4.15, Zentyal Server 7.0, Clonezilla Live 2.7.1-22
- Torrent corner: 4Mlinux, Alpine, Bluestar, Clonezilla, Endless OS, GParted Live, OPNsense, Tails, Zentyal Server
- Upcoming releases: FreeBSD 13.0-BETA1
- Opinion poll: How do you feel about KIS distributions?
- New additions: Diamond Linux-TT
- New distributions: RoshanOS
- Reader comments
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (8MB) and MP3 (11MB) formats.
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Kwort 4.3.5
In the opening weeks of 2021 I decided to engage in a search for technological simplicity and dived into a series of distributions with a keep it simple (KIS) philosophy. This week I decided to try Kwort, which is described on the distribution's website as follows:
Kwort is a Linux distribution based on CRUX; we make use of their port system to build a set of minimal packages. While Kwort uses binary packages, we offer the users this port system as well. Looking for the best tools aligned to Kwort's philosophy is an on-going task during the whole year. Because of all this, Kwort is [an] extremely simple and straight forward Linux system.
The Kwort distribution is available in one edition for 64-bit (x86_64) computers. The ISO file is a 1GB download. According to the project's latest release announcement, the recent 4.3.5 release mostly focuses on package updates, bringing the compiler, Linux kernel, and web browsers up to date with their upstream versions.
Booting from the live media brings up a menu offering to boot in normal or "Without RMS" modes. Taking either of these options results in a kernel panic with an error message reporting the root filesystem could not be found. After verifying the media's checksum again, I tried choosing both boot options again and confirmed both resulted in kernel panics early in the boot process. There are some similar reports on the Kwort forum so it seems the problem isn't limited to my environment. This brought my trial with Kwort to an early conclusion.
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SulinOS
The second distribution on my KIS list this week was SulinOS. The distribution's website describes the project as follows:
SulinOS [is] faster than standard distributions. For example, every package was compiled without SELinux or AppArmor. Also the kernel is configured for better security, without compromise. SulinOS never uses sudo (You can use 'su -c command' [instead of] sudo). SulinOS is oriented towards advanced Linux users, who know what they're doing.
The website reports SulinOS ships with both regular and libre variants of the Linux kernel. OpenRC is used for service management and the distribution provides a custom package manager called inary. The distribution runs on 64-bit (x86_64) machines exclusively and is available in several editions. The are four main desktop editions: GNOME, Xfce, LXDE, and MATE. There are two editions, KDE and Pantheon, which are currently listed as being in a testing phase. In addition to these desktop flavours there is a smaller Minimal edition. It looks as though most of these editions were last updated back in November of 2020. The Minimal edition is 360MB in size while the desktop editions vary from about 1.3GB (for the LXDE download) up to about 1.7GB for the MATE and GNOME editions.
I decided to download the MATE edition and launching the live media brings up a boot menu offering to start the distribution with Turkish, English, or Spanish language support. The operating system then loads a graphical login screen where we can sign in with the credentials "user" and "live". (The credentials for the live disc are presented in the distribution's download page.) Signing into the default account starts a desktop session with MATE 1.24.0 arranged in a two-panel layout.
SulinOS 20201112 -- Exploring the MATE application menu
(full image size: 360kB, resolution: 1360x768 pixels)
There are no desktop icons and very few graphical applications included. There is no web browser, no office suite, no graphical partition manager. There are a few small applications such as a terminal, system monitor, and image viewer. The Caja file manager is also included. Running from the live media, the MATE desktop was responsive and I went looking for a system installer.
Installing
I found the launcher for SulinOS's system installer under the MATE System menu in the Administration section. When launching the installer we are prompted for a root password which is "live". SulinOS appears to use the system installer from Linux Mint Debian Edition. We are guided through screens which ask us to select our language and location, time zone, and keyboard layout. We are asked to make up a username and password and then given the choice of proceeding with guided or manual partitioning. The manual approach is fairly straight forward and even makes a good suggestion as to how to set up the disk. The default disk layout uses a single ext4 partition for the operating system and a second partition for swap space. Once we assign mount points to the partitions the installer copies its files to the hard drive.
I ran into two issues during the install process. The first was that I could not find my country or language preference on the first screen of the installer. None of the language codes I would usually select appeared to be available. I went for the next best option I could find which was the language option paired with the flag icon of the United States, which I hoped would provide me with an English-focused desktop. This worked out in my favour.
The other problem I ran into was the screensaver kicked in after five minutes, locking the live desktop session. This meant I could not see the progress the system installer was making. When I tried to unlock the desktop I discovered the password I used to sign into the live session did not work to unlock MATE. I could switch to a terminal and sign in with the "user" and "live" credentials, but not unlock the desktop with them. This meant I had to force the screensaver process to terminate to return to the desktop.
Early impressions
The freshly installed operating system boots to a graphical login screen. Signing to my account brought back the MATE environment, this time with launchers for opening the Caja file manager on the desktop. There were no initial pop-ups and no welcome screen. As before there were very few applications available through the menu.
The distribution was relatively light on resources, consuming 250MB of RAM when signed into MATE and using up 5.3GB of disk space, not including the swap partition. The desktop was quick and responsive, making for a minimal, though mostly positive first impression.
Included software
The distribution ships with version 5.8 of the Linux kernel and uses SysV init. The OpenRC service manager runs on top of the classic init implementation. OpenRC brought the system on-line quickly.
I noticed early on SulinOS ships with manual pages, but the documentation pages for many common commands were missing. Looking into this I found Busybox provides most of the core userland command line tools and these commands do not have accompanying manual pages. However, low-level tools that are not part of Busybox, such as init or the parted command, do have accompanying manual pages.
True the to the SulinOS website's word, the sudo command is not included and we should run the su command (or login to the root account directly) when we wish to perform administrative tasks.
One problem I ran into while using the root account was I could not always shutdown the operating system. Sometimes running a command like poweroff or shutdown would simply leave the system running and, when that happened, I could not restart from the login screen either. Typically I would shutdown SulinOS from within the MATE desktop which always worked.
Package management
SulinOS ships with a custom package manager called inary. While this package manager includes a lot of options and appears to be set up for working with source code, repositories, and both local and remote packages, the main features most people will want are pretty easy to remember. Running inary with key words such as install, remove, or search followed by a package name is pretty straight forward and should work much the same as DNF or pkg on other platforms.
Unfortunately I could not get inary to work for me. Any command that I tried to run as the root user terminated with an error which said: "unsupported locale setting". It seems running with the chr_US.UTF-8 locale is not supported. I looked through the documentation for both the distribution and the package manager and could not find any mention of this issue or a workaround. I also could not find any tools for managing locales in the settings panel.
I mentioned before the screensaver would activate after five minutes and failed to recognize my password. This problem happened again once the distribution had been installed. I had to sign into a terminal and kill the screensaver process to get back to the desktop. I then disabled the screensaver. I mention this because I suspect the language settings which prevent the lock screen from recognizing my password may be related to the locale issues I had with the package manager. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any documentation on dealing with these issues.
Conclusions
Unfortunately this left me with a distribution that included virtually no software, no working package manager to install new applications, and no documentation that would help me address these issues. This again brought my trial to an early end.
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Visitor supplied rating
Kwort has a visitor supplied average rating of: 10/10 from 1 review(s).
Have you used Kwort? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
Serious sudo vulnerability patched, new Tails media published, Ubuntu tries Wayland as the default display manager, FreeBSD demotes i386
The week began with an announcement about a serious vulnerability found in the sudo tool. The sudo command is installed on most Linux distributions and is used to allow one user to run commands as another. Typically this allows the owner of a computer to run commands as the root user, performing admin tasks while still logged in under their regular account. The sudo website explained the issue: "Fixed a potential buffer overflow when unescaping backslashes in the command's arguments. Normally, sudo escapes special characters when running a command via a shell (sudo -s or sudo -i). However, it was also possible to run sudoedit with the -s or -i flags in which case no escaping had actually been done, making a buffer overflow possible." Most major distributions quickly patched vulnerable versions of the sudo tool with some, including Slackware, also provided additional details on the exploit.
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While most Linux distributions are installed to a hard drive and can be updating in place, live distributions, those run from DVDs and USB thumb drives, are usually static once released. In the wake of the recent sudo exploit live distributions, such as Tails, rushed to publish new media. Tails, for instance, published Tails 4.15.1 just days after the 4.15 release in order to address the sudo bug.
* * * * *
A little over three years ago the Ubuntu developers experimented with making Wayland the default display server for their distribution. While, at the time, Wayland proved to be problematic resulting in a return to using X.Org as the default display server, work on Wayland has continued. Now it is expected Ubuntu 21.04 will use GNOME running on Wayland as the default desktop session. "In the Ubuntu 17.10 cycle we tried Wayland as the default session but we didn't feel confident at the time it was ready yet for a LTS. Things improved since, some of the blockers we found back then got resolved (desktop sharing), and that's where the upstream focus is going. We believe now is the right time to try again, it should give us enough time before the next LTS to get proper feedback and sort out issues. Since we decided to not upgrade our GNOME version this cycle it should also make things a bit easier. Note that NVIDIA users are still going to default to X.Org for now but hopefully that situation will be resolved before the LTS."
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The next major release of FreeBSD, FreeBSD 13.0, will demote the 32-bit x86 (i386) architecture to Tier 2 status. This means FreeBSD will continue to run on 32-bit machines, but supporting it will be a lower priority for the developers. John Baldwin explains in a mailing list post: "FreeBSD is designating i386 as a Tier 2 architecture starting with FreeBSD 13.0. The Project will continue to provide release images, binary updates, and pre-built packages for the 13.x branch. However, i386-specific issues (including SAs) may not be addressed in 13.x. The i386 platform will remain Tier 1 on FreeBSD 11.x and 12.x."
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Qt licensing concerns
Keeping-everything-on-the-QT asks: Qt has always had cryptic licensing, and recently they've moved to make LTS releases commercial only. What kind of an impact will this have on Qt-based desktop environments, such as Plasma? Also, should the FLOSS community be thinking about moving away from Qt? Is forking an option?
DistroWatch answers: Unlike some development toolkits (such as GTK), the Qt project has always tried to walk a tightrope between being open source and being commercially viable. Basically, the Qt project tries to be financially self-supporting by providing commercial support for its product while also providing the source code under an open license so it can be used and developed in the FLOSS community. In particular the Lumina, LXQt and KDE Plasma desktop environments have been developed on the basis of the open source Qt libraries while commercial vendors can purchase and distribute the commercially licensed version of Qt.
The Qt team has accomplished this tightrope walk by dual-licensing their software. The project's licensing page offers a general overview:
Qt for Application Development is dual-licensed under commercial and open source licenses. The commercial Qt license gives you the full rights to create and distribute software on your own terms without any open source license obligations. With the commercial license you also have access to the official Qt Support and close strategic relationship with The Qt Company to make sure your development goals are met.
Qt for Application Development is also available under GPL and LGPLv3 open source licenses. Qt tools and some libraries are only available under GPL.
The Qt licensing situation isn't really cryptic, it's just using two licenses, which is semi-common with development libraries. Last year the Qt project announced some changes. Specifically that while each new release and most minor updates would remain open source and freely available, long-term support of Qt would only be available under the commercial license. In short, Qt is still open source and still freely available. However, if you want the Qt developers to provide long-term support then you need to pay for it. The announcement summarizes the change:
Starting with Qt 5.15, long term support (LTS) will only be available to commercial customers. This means open-source users will receive patch-level releases of 5.15 until the next minor release will become available. This means that we will handle Qt 5.15 in the same way as e.g. 5.13 or 5.14 for open source users.
In other words, the long-term support versions are still available under the open source license, but the extra support won't be once newer versions of Qt become available.
The announcement goes on to mention that the development branch of Qt will get bug fixes so that people running recent releases will get the same fixes developers on the long-term support releases will get.
We are changing our process in R&D to push all bug fixes to the main development branch first, and then backport selected bug fixes back into stable release branches. This process ensures that the latest version of Qt will always contain all bug fixes.
All of this is to say, very little is changing with Qt. There is a small change here in an effort to encourage developers to stick to the newer releases, or pay to stay on older versions, but for open source developers very little has changed.
Returning to the original questions - what kind of impact will this have on open source desktops, such as Plasma? Virtually nothing, if anything, will change for them. For desktops developers and Linux package maintainers it is unlikely anything will change. Major versions of Qt are backward compatible so there is no downside to upgrading the Qt library used by your distribution's desktop or applications.
Should the FLOSS community consider moving away from Qt? Personally, I don't think there is any reason to migrate. This move doesn't really affect open source developers. Most open source projects stick to a pretty recent version of Qt already and it is rare for open source developers to linger on long-term support releases of their toolkits.
Is forking an option? It is certainly possible to fork Qt, but there would be virtually no benefit to doing so. The only feature open source developers are missing out on right now is the long-term support feature, they still get every release under the existing open license. Which means the only reason to fork would be to add long-term support to Qt. This would require not only maintaining the fork and keeping up with Qt development, but also providing long-term support free of charge in order to make the fork at all worth while. I'm not sure there would be much benefit to that since as far as I know most developers aren't using the long-term support releases for their projects.
However, if it does get to a point where the open source version of Qt is discarded or is no longer viable, then the KDE project already has a plan to fork the software. The KDE team has a legal agreement with the owners of Qt that if Qt ever ceases to be open source, KDE can legally fork the toolkit, develop it, and distribute it under a BSD-style license. This insures that projects like KDE Plasma cannot be cut off from using Qt. In short, basically Qt cannot become a closed or commercial-only product because if it did, then KDE gets to take over its development and the open source community would simply switch over to KDE's fork.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
Tails 4.15
Version 4.15 of Tails (The Amnesic Incognito Live System), a Debian-based live image designed for anonymous browsing of internet websites, has been released. As usual, the new version fixes a handful of security issues: "Tails 4.15 is out. This release fixes known security vulnerabilities. You should upgrade as soon as possible. New features: add a 'Don't Show Again' button to the security notification when starting Tails in a virtual machine. Changes and updates: update Tor Browser to 10.0.9; update Thunderbird to 78.6.0; update Linux kernel to 5.9.15 - this should improve the support for newer hardware (graphics, Wi-Fi). Fixed problems: fix support for the Ledger hardware wallets in Electrum; fix sharing mobile data, also called USB tethering, on iOS 14 or later; clarify the error message when starting from a USB stick that is too small. Known issues: none specific to this release. Tails 4.16 is scheduled for February 23." See the release announcement and the changelog for further information.
Zentyal Server 7.0
Zentyal Server is an Ubuntu-based server distribution that aims at offering an easy-to-use Linux alternative to Windows Server. The project's latest release is Zentyal Server 7.0 which is based on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. "Zentyal Development Team today announced the availability of Zentyal Server Development Edition 7.0. This is a new major community release of the Zentyal Linux Server, based on Ubuntu Server 20.04 LTS. This version comes with the most recent versions of all the integrated software, including Samba 4.11 and the latest stable SOGo version. Zentyal Server provides an easy-to-use Linux alternative to Windows Server. Thanks to the integration of Samba, Zentyal provides native compatibility with the Microsoft Active Directory and allows transparent management of Windows clients. It is used by companies and public administrations mainly as a domain and directory server and a file server. The graphical user interface that Zentyal offers helps to make Linux server management easier for all and specially for new Linux users." Further information can be found in the distribution's release announcement.
Clonezilla Live 2.7.1-22
Clonezilla Live is a Debian-based live CD containing Clonezilla, a partition and disk cloning software. The project's latest release, Clonezilla Live 2.7.1-22, updates the kernel for better hardware support, includes new package updates from Debian's Unstable branch, and improves exFAT support. "The underlying GNU/Linux operating system was upgraded. This release is based on the Debian Sid repository (as of 2021/Jan/27). Linux kernel was updated to 5.10.9-1. Include exfatprogs instead of exfat-utils. Include package glances, ipv6calc, atop, usbtop, bashtop, python3-psutil, vnstat and iperf3. Add package f3 in Clonezilla/DRBL/GParted live. Thanks to timgmooney at hotmail com for this suggestion. ocs-sr: make --rescue work for ocs-onthefly to call ocs-sr. Thanks to huh for reporting this issue. prep-ocsroot: add an option to fsck repository file system before mounting local one. Thanks to Bohdan for this idea. Better mechanism to find LIVE_MEDIA in function get_live_media_mnt_point of ocs-functions. This allows persistence in the live-boot to work with Clonezilla live. Thanks to Bohdan for asking persistence feature." Further information can be found in the distribution's release announcement.
OPNsense 21.1
OPNsense is a HardenedBSD-based specialist operating system (and a fork of pfSense) designed for firewalls and routers. The project's latest version is OPNsense 21.1. This new release introduces a number of improvements to firewall configuration and monitoring. "21.1, nicknamed Marvelous Meerkat, is the relentless continuation of open source dedication. The last 6 years were not always easy, but we are happy to be where we are now and have the community to thank for it. New and improved are the firewall rules and NAT categories, the traffic graphs supporting IPv6 along with a visual refresh, intrusion detection rule management by policies, an alias for MAC addresses and NAT over IPsec with all phase 2 you could ever want. Last but not least, the serial image now supports UEFI as well. For those wondering, the WireGuard plugin has been available since 2019 and receives continuous improvements by its maintainer and various users alike. And that is unlikely to change in the future. As we continue to deprecate custom configuration inputs for a number of reasons, Dnsmasq has been switched to a pluggable file-based approach with Unbound to follow in the upcoming 21.7 series." Further details are available in the release announcement.
OPNsense 21.1 -- The OPNsense dashboard
(full image size: 595kB, resolution: 1028x522 pixels)
GParted Live 1.2.0-1
GParted Live is a business card-size live CD distribution with a single purpose - to provide tools for partitioning hard disks in an intuitive, graphical environment. The newest release from the project, GParted Live 1.2.0-1, features exFAT support, an updated kernel, and a systemd fix. The release announcement provides the following details: "This release includes GParted 1.2.0, updated packages, and other improvements. Items of note include: Includes GParted 1.2.0; add exFAT support using exfatprogs.Wait for udev change on /dev/DISK when erasing signatures; don't try to mask non-existent systemd xe2x97x8f.service; based on the Debian 'Sid' repository as of 2021-01-26; Linux kernel updated to 5.10.9. Known issue: boot option 'Other modes of GParted Live, GParted Live (Failsafe mode)' fails to enter graphic mode when booting from UEFI mechanism, while it's OK when booting from legacy BIOS. This release of GParted Live has been successfully tested on VirtualBox, VMware, BIOS, UEFI and physical computers with AMD/ATI, NVIDIA and Intel graphics."
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,315
- Total data uploaded: 36.0TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
How do you feel about KIS distributions?
In this week's Feature Story we mentioned keep it simple (KIS) distributions. These projects try to keep the engineering of the operating system simple so that developers and system administrators can more easily understand the inner workings. This approach often comes at a trade off that requires the end-user to know more about the system and perform tasks manually.
Are you a fan of KIS-style distributions? Do you run one? Let us know in the comments
You can see the results of our previous poll on preferred parent distributions in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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When it comes to KIS distributions I...
| I like them and run one: | 381 (31%) |
| I like them but do not run one: | 499 (40%) |
| I do not like them but run one: | 11 (1%) |
| I do not like them and do not run one: | 354 (28%) |
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| Website News |
New distributions added to database
Diamond Linux-TT
Diamond Linux-TT is a desktop Linux distribution based on Debian's Stable branch. The distribution features the KDE Plasma desktop with an eye toward making the interface look more familiar to former Windows users.
Diamond Linux-TT -- Running the KDE Plasma desktop
(full image size: 691kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
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New distributions added to waiting list
- RoshanOS. RoshanOS is based on Linux Mint and features the Cinnamon desktop. It bundles more applications and features a layout adjusted to resemble Microsoft Windows.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 8 February 2021. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Article Search page. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
- Bruce Patterson (podcast)
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| Extended Lifecycle Support by TuxCare |
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • kwort (by vern on 2021-02-01 04:03:01 GMT from United States)
I had the exact experience trying to get kwort loading/running. I gave up.
I run both KDE and LXQT and really like QT.
2 • KIS only for some user (by Dhoni on 2021-02-01 04:03:53 GMT from Indonesia)
Dunno why people use this KIS distro, so far i only met 3 kind of linux user segment.
1. User who use linux for workstation, ex. me
2. User who use linux for server, ex. me
3. Old/young user who use linux first time, ex my kids or my parent..
So which user segment is this KIS distro trying to reach??
3 • Locales and KIS (by FNSpiderMan on 2021-02-01 05:15:50 GMT from United States)
Jesse, locales are set using LANG and various LC_* variables, which are not, as you might know, distro-specific. I have these in my /etc/profile:
export CHARSET=UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
export LC_COLLATE=C
(See chapters 7 and 8 of POSIX' Base Definitions -- https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/idx/xbd.html)
Now as for @2 and the general appeal of KIS distributions, I believe the segment is represented by hackers in the old, normal sense of the word (see the Wikipedia page on the term), by some hobbyists who might also be hackers by the definition, by people who like exploring something new, and maybe by some admins who prefer to maintain a no-frills distribution. I personally like simplicity in all things so I enjoy such a distribution myself. Which is probably another kind of people who use them.
4 • KIS distros (by Will on 2021-02-01 05:18:23 GMT from United States)
LFS is about the closest to a KIS distro that I have found useful (mostly for learning how things work). The idea of providing simplicity to the user and of making it simple and transparent to configure and administer sounds great, but I haven't seen any distros that fit the bill. I like Mint, but it's not transparent or easy to understand what it's doing.
Ideally, I'd like a distro that explains what it's doing when it's doing it. One example:
Enabling ssh server...
Click the button to enable sshd startup - system confirms your intention, then modifies some files and tells you about those modification, runs a command to start the service and tells you its starting, and returns to your control. While it's doing things, it keeps a log that is accessible later. It also tells you what you need to do to reverse the changes.
The way this usually works is you run a command to install ssh-server, or click a button to start it automatically, and then a bunch of changes are made to your system (maybe messages appear on your screen about what's happening, maybe not). No log is kept (unless you copy paste). And a bunch of magic takes place that isn't reversable.
5 • Qt (by pin on 2021-02-01 05:33:46 GMT from Sweden)
"All of this is to say, very little is changing with Qt."
Well, it actually does because, Qt pushed through a half-ready product missing a lot of functionality with the release of Qt-6.0. Qt-6.0 is far from production ready, leaving several open source projects with the following options; 5.12 (latest non-commercial LTS), 5.15 without fixes or updates (unless you pay for it) of, a half broken 6.0.
The question is, if when 6.2, the next LTS is released, what will be the state of the following development branch. In practice, they are handing out a non-usable product to the open source community and expect them to contribute fixes to a future commercial release that won't be possible to use without a license.
6 • KISS (by nsp0323 on 2021-02-01 05:53:38 GMT from Sweden)
Personally, I only use OS's that provide minimal install images without desktop environments appended, as I prefer to build my own.
So, I use Void (musl-libc build) and NetBSD, both running with just a window manager.
7 • @2 KIS not for you? (by James on 2021-02-01 06:32:09 GMT from Switzerland)
@2 4. Users who want to play with their linux distribution.
8 • KIS (by speedytux on 2021-02-01 07:30:26 GMT from France)
Keep It Simple distributions include the fabulous Archlinux that I use for 11 years now with great satisfaction. It doesn't mean fewer features. Mine is Arch+GNOME install on a powerful Thinkpad X1 Extreme, with the latest stable kernel, latest stable Gnome, latest stable Firefox, Chromium (or google-chrome if you prefer)...
9 • KIS(S) (by denk_mal on 2021-02-01 07:33:40 GMT from Germany)
I for my personal use prefer KIS distris for my server and docker container and non KIS distri for desktop mashines.
So for me it depends not on me, it depends on the use-case.
10 • KIS (by speedytux on 2021-02-01 07:34:22 GMT from France)
I forget to add a reference to the Arch wiki where KISS is explained. Following the links, you can understand the principles behind Arch. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#KISS
11 • KIS (by speedytux on 2021-02-01 07:52:14 GMT from France)
The main KIS user type is someone who wishes to keep full control of his system. For various reasons: study, security, fun.
12 • KIS (by Simon on 2021-02-01 08:26:47 GMT from New Zealand)
The difference between KIS and heavily automated distros is like the difference between a manual and an automatic transmission: the manual transmission's simplicity means it takes a bit longer to learn how to use it...but then you have (a) more control than you get from automation, and (b) a more robust, resilient mechanism that's also much easier to fix if something goes wrong. With a KIS OS you're going to invest a bit more time up front in setting things up the way you want them to be...but then they actually are the way you want them to be, and they stay that way. The increasingly Windows-like popular Linux desktops, full of complex automation, disempower users by placing them more and more in the hands of developers.
Make a system complex enough, and "FOSS" means very little because for all practical purposes the code might as well be closed source: if it's so complex you need teams of developers to change things for you, you're not really in control of your tech. KIS is part of the UNIX philosophy: a simple tool that "does one thing and does it well" is easy to debug, easy to hack on...just better to work with than the obscene do-everything monstrosities that the Windows world produces (and, ever since the Linux community became a community of mostly ex-Windows users, increasingly the Linux world is producing them too). So while distros like Slackware boot to their desktops in a second or two, parsing simple BASH scripts that anyone can read and understand, modern Windows-like distros chug away for twenty seconds or more, trudging through all the layers of horrible complexity that they need in order to do automatically all the things that their users don't know how to do for themselves.
KIS is actually what all Linux distros were in the beginning, when part of the way Linux empowered you was by enabling you to understanding your system and know what every bit of software was doing. That was back when the majority of Linux users had UNIX and/or computer science backgrounds, and the people using it from Windows desktop backgrounds were a minority. Now that ex-Windows users with their Windows-based expectations make up the majority of Linux users, KIS has become the minority approach. Folks prefer their desktops to think for them as much as possible...wow, look at all this stuff that's happening automatically without my doing anything...it's so great, it feels like good ol' Windows.
13 • New Distros (by Pete on 2021-02-01 09:17:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oh, two " new distros " this week both resembling Windows. Why! I do find that a lot of distros nowadays are becoming as bland as MS.
14 • @12 KIS analogy (by Jeff on 2021-02-01 09:48:36 GMT from United States)
I kind of see your point, but even though I prefer manual transmissions in vehicles to the point of all but refusing to drive automatic I do not run KIS distros.
For most people the car or truck is built for them, they are not doing the set-up themselves.
15 • new distros (by mechanic on 2021-02-01 10:01:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
These 'new' distros may resemble Windows for the very good reason that MSFT solved many design issues with solutions that worked for users. Not much point in reinventing wheels.
16 • KIS (by mechanic on 2021-02-01 10:16:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
@12 the trouble with 'simple' systems is that they connect to other simple systems, and each system may have different ideas. I've tried various simple distros (example:lxle) and they nearly always fail to address user cases in a simple way.
Any system should be able to:
- run as a virtual machine under Windows or BSD or Linux hosts;
- be able to print from the virtual machine;
- and share files with the host in a straightforward way
- play Youtube videos with good sound.
Very few do!
17 • KiS distro's (by denpes on 2021-02-01 10:41:55 GMT from Belgium)
In the last decade, the amount of complexity has increased quite a bit in linux distro's. Mostly to implement convenience for the users, and also because old principles are thrown away to quickly implement new functionality(snap, systemd,etc). Things also change quicker due to the huge participation of so many people/organizations.
There aren't many KIS distro's left. Most distro's jump on the latest bandwagon in the hope they are not left behind. I still consider debian/devuan pretty KIS, but Slackware is really sticking and holding on to the KIS principle. It's always an easy and quick installation, plus you know what to expect. That's probably why I like Slackware so much. It lacks some convenience if you change software/frameworks a lot. But it wins with simplicity under the hood.
18 • KIS (by FNSpiderMan on 2021-02-01 11:30:27 GMT from Germany)
@16 Simple in the way they are organized, it doesn't mean "noob-friendly", something which Ubuntu-based LXLE is. Ubuntu is in no way a KISS distribution. Back in the day you were supposed to build the kernel by yourself to make sure you include the drivers and the features you need while removing those you don't. So the use cases mentioned are up to the user and if the user can't address them, it's up to the user.
Like with KIS distributions, manual transmissions are rare these days.
19 • Kiss, what is it (by Hank on 2021-02-01 11:32:03 GMT from United States)
I consider antiX pretty much a KISS distro but with the luxury for those who want or need them
a plethora of tools created by devs and forum members. Very much the best of two worlds. Easy to understand and configure with text config files on one hand.
Other extreme is a one click customization script from a forum member PPC which transforms fluxbox desktop into something with a familiar look and feel for windows fugitives.
For ICEWM many tools and scripts are also available to ease setup and usage..
No systemD up to date applications on a rock solid base of debian buster. Lightning fast both live from persistent changes saving usb stick or installed to disk. One of the Best Of the Best.
20 • KIS OSs (by TheTKS on 2021-02-01 13:05:50 GMT from Canada)
I could say I use both, or probably more correctly a spectrum, and lean towards preferring KIS, but what I use depends on the job.
But “Is this distro/BSD KIS?” doesn’t have a binary answer.
Looking at ones I use:
TinyCore is KIS although I actually use CorePlus, with a Window Manager and wifi management, so that’s not quite as KIS as TinyCore.
The main two Puppies can be KIS, but they also have a lot of GUI tools to make things “easy” for the user but not necessarily “simple”.
OpenBSD with fvwm is KIS, but they’ve made it easy for the user of stable branch, rather than dead simple, to do OS updates, and not so long ago same for 3rd party package updates. Install KDE or Xfce and a huge pile of 3rd party packages on top of that - still KIS?
Slackware has a KIS way of administering it but a huge list of 3rd party packages by default, and I’m really liking KDE 5 Plasma on -current. So KIS or not?
Xubuntu and elementaryOS I would say are far from KIS. They are pretty easy to use.
So KIS is simple in concept but not necessarily simply implemented.
TKS
21 • KIS(S) (by Semiarticulae on 2021-02-01 15:14:33 GMT from United States)
After using Linux for well over 20 years, it seems to me that the majority of distributions are becoming the thing I once sought to replace. I won't profess that to be either good or bad. It's just a fact that distributions have become more complex over time. Who would have thought that could happen.
I prefer knowing what is going on. Thank goodness for the likes of Slackware, Void, LFS, etc... With complexity comes risk, and these KIS(S) distros help to mitigate that.
Now if only there was a KIS(S) version of the internet.
22 • KIs that I still use (by John on 2021-02-01 15:44:04 GMT from United States)
I still use 50MB DSL booting from CD as a cheap fast X windows terminal with multiple ssh windows open to multiple Linux machines.
Works great. Even so DSL is greatly overbloated!
Where is a Memory Stick version of Linux that just does X widows to a main Linux box?
That would be worthwhile news about a KIS Linux distribution.
John
23 • KISS! (by Nathan on 2021-02-01 16:01:02 GMT from United States)
Many chefs spoil the broth, and if Picasso and da Vinci tried to collaborate on a painting together, things would get ugly.
For those of us who see operating systems in a similar way, KISS is the way to go. A non-KISS distro presents you with a more-or-less completed work of art, with each update adding a dash of cumin or a dab of paint here or there, reinforcing the developers' vision of their artwork. KISS distros, on the other hand, provide a blank canvas and the supplies for you to craft your masterpiece. I love Arch for this reason, and have come to love Gentoo even more for the same reasons.
The Ubuntus of this world still serve a purpose, and I don't mean to go railing on them. There is no such thing as one distro to rule them all, and part of Linux's strength is that developers are at liberty to create distros tailored to specific tasks. Not every distro needs to run well as a VM or play video. Some should since that's a common use case, and othors should make for great servers, and I'm grateful that yet others exist that follow KISS, making no assumptions about how I want my system to behave.
24 • KIS (by bison on 2021-02-01 16:23:16 GMT from United States)
My favorite KIS distribution for daily use is AntiX. It's based on Debian, it's simple and fast (no systemd or desktop environment), and it comes with a codecs installer.
25 • KIS: beans, please - hold the rice (by Jay on 2021-02-01 17:22:54 GMT from Slovenia)
KIS is for people that want to do their own driving - and some of us are minimalists as well. For me, minimalism is about keeping only what one needs and/or loves.
That means custom-fitting my computing for system security and personal privacy (needs) and choosing only the WM and apps that maximize my productivity (loves).
Less is more. DEs and other cruft I'll never use are misfeatures.
26 • KIS vs KIC (by Otis on 2021-02-01 17:46:31 GMT from United States)
There is a lot in-between Keep It Simple and Keep It Complicated. A veritable range in steps of grey area to the great unknowns of code etc in the distro universe. My KIS is too complicated for some who might venture into my distro's innards and workings. My KIC is too simple for devs and others who really want to have a hand in the whole thing.
There was a time when it all was too complicated, so some of us kept following the Windows garbage truck. Then we learned and also watched as some of the same distros that seemed too much work to get going became easier.. then the afore mentioned range of distros from simple to not-so--simple began to come into view over the years.
27 • kis (by vasea on 2021-02-01 19:05:29 GMT from Moldova)
Define what kis exactly means,
because I use artix, specifically runit + xfce edition, and I think it is really simple to use,
it has a package manager which uses .tar.whatever files instead of specialized formats,
it uses a simple init system without magic,
and overall arch is a simple distro with a great wiki.
so because of that I voted that i use a KIS distro.
28 • @27 (by Simon on 2021-02-01 19:53:19 GMT from New Zealand)
It means "Keep It Simple". Simple means not complex: a system with three parts (e.g. a paintbrush, a pot of paint and a piece of paper) is simpler than a system with millions of parts (e.g. a robot holding a brush, paint and paper).
Where a lot of people get confused is that they imagine "simple" to mean "easy". This mistake probably comes from the fact that simple problems are usually (though not always) easier to solve than complex problems, so people say "oh, that's simple" and mean roughly "oh, that's easy".
With distros it is roughly the opposite: the simpler a distro is, the "harder" it seems to people who don't know how to use the simple tools available to them. The more complex automation a distro has layered on to make decisions for people who wouldn't know what to do otherwise, the "easier" it feels to those people. So KIS means "simple" like a paintbrush and paper is simple: it just sits there and you have to learn how to use it yourself...but it empowers you to do exactly what you want, once you've learnt how. Complex is more like a robot holding the brush and asking "what would you like me to paint for you?". Yes, it's "easy" in the sense that you get painting done without even knowing how to paint...but for someone who does know how to paint, it's just frustrating...you want to dismantle the robot and just grab the brush and get it done. It's also much less reliable and more error-prone: a brush has fewer bugs than a robot.
29 • Kwort (by Jyrki on 2021-02-01 20:05:51 GMT from Czechia)
had the same experience. Does it work at all for anyone?
30 • My version of KIS (by mikef90000 on 2021-02-01 21:56:07 GMT from United States)
is to install a lighter DE *without* a display (login) manager that starts X automatically.
I have Xfce installed on servers that, when needed, I start with 'startx'. With todays inexpensive storage the space occupied by a DE is trivial.
Many GUI front ended tools are far more productive and safer to me 'in sysadmin mode'.
31 • Buster Dog -- KIS (by Mick Wandlebury on 2021-02-01 22:44:15 GMT from United States)
I really like BusterDog Linux. My custom build has Slim for logins, Openbox, JWM, or i3 for
the wm, and XFCE for the desktop. The regular Debian repos are available, and there os no
systemd. Porteus-style squash filesystem modules can be mounted and de-activated on the
fly. See https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/zz03busterdog.html if you want to build your own.
32 • KIS slackware (by JohnM on 2021-02-01 23:25:53 GMT from Canada)
I selected "I like them but do not run one", only because the term KIS seems to be morphing. Note. I use Slackware at home, RHEL at work.
So I consider Slackware to be the definition of KIS, once installed all settings remain as is until you change it yourself. But with RHEL, sometimes configs are updated with a patch, which occurred last week, which is why I still use Slackware.
But seems some "KIS" may include some automatic patching and config settings. So not quite sure what KIS is these days :)
33 • LxQt (by jonathing on 2021-02-02 01:34:00 GMT from Australia)
A swallowed the jaggared pill of Lubuntu / LXDE combining with Razor Qt to create LxQt but when the Right Click menu on the desktop, when usimg openbox as window manager, got taken away I stopped using it entirely.
Thanks for letting me whine..
34 • Keep it Simple, or Complicated: KIS, KIC. (by Greg Zeng on 2021-02-02 06:06:49 GMT from Australia)
Cognitive scientists find "evolution" to be interesting, from the Simple, towards the complicated. There are many examples on Linux, like in all evolutionary systems.
The first virtual computers were physical & continuous. Then alphanumerics were used in a digital approximation of "reality".
These early computers were slowly, bulky & limited in usefulness: numbers only. Then symbols and continuous variables allowed better use of these virtual intelligences to assist human intelligence. So finally graphics, sounds & other non-digital inputs could be used by these digital machines.
In Linux terms, this is shown by the historical existence on Arch (no graphics, no GUI), then many later display managers: "window managers", "display environments", and then the developments in Android that have yet to reach the bulk of the Linux communities: user-intelligence adjusting, etc.
The lead Linux system review was one KIS version of Linux. The evolution of the Linux system mirrors so much of other living systems: plants, animals, languages, music, fashion, engineering, etc.
As the overall environment changes, the basic "intelligence" needs to adapt to be more useful to the new situations. Microsoft Windows, like Canonical, needs to have LTS for those who are fearful of too much experimentation.
Younger risk takers are willing kill off the older ways, to put everything onto something very new, unusual & incompatible with older ways. When GNOME-2 was moving towards GNOME-3, this meant stopping the WIMP-desktop metaphor invented by Xerox.
Canonical's Unity & GNOME-3 are still demanding keyboard skills, trying to avoid the WIMP metaphor. Many traditionalists in Linux remember the days of "traditional loyalty", before GUI & WIMP were invented.
In evolutionary terms, the older Apple & Microsoft systems are like the dinosaurs, founded on the ready-to-run baby, after the egg shell is broken. Linux was similar to the first mammals, overwhelmed by the inflexible dinosaurs. The Linux mammal required so much baby-ing, so many births, re-incarnations & experiments. Linux, Apple's new systems & BSD share the first mammalian ancestor: Unix.
Linux alone has conquered the server, IoT, mobile & cloud worlds. Microsoft still is struggling to hold onto the desktop world, where Linux is a very poor third time Bronze Medal "winner".
Before Linux defeats Microsoft & Apple, it needs to tidy up its package managers, display environments and vertical integrations in the intelligence industries. Distrowatch & its readers are the main industry reporter ATM for the open source Linux industries.
The newest developments & hopes for Linux seems to be from the Open Source industries. This explains why the large financial contributors to "The Linux Foundation", etc are some of the privateers (Red Hat, Canonical, Red Hat, Samsung, IBM, Google, Huawei, etc).
Of special interest are those privateers which seem hostile to Open Source products like Linux: Apple & Nvidia. Does cooperation, theft, or hostility to innovation work better?
Similarly, amongst Linux users, does forking or rebelling the main trends produce better results, in the long run?
35 • News: Serious sudo vulnerability patched (by Velho Rabujento on 2021-02-02 10:52:48 GMT from Brazil)
sudo itself is a bug.
No way to fix it!
36 • KIS (by marco71 on 2021-02-02 11:13:28 GMT from Romania)
Fan of KISS here (Keep it Small and Simple) for ages :)
@17, very good point of view, totally agree!
I'm using Slackware & Devuan for almost everything, although some old, light openvz containers in use are running minimal Debian 7 and CentOS 6, that can be considered KIS...
For me, KIS(S) means no bloat (no systemd, snap, flatpak, gnome, kde, mono, etc) and I'd probably give a try to CRUX and Void
37 • KISS (by Fred on 2021-02-02 12:28:34 GMT from Brazil)
@12
"KIS is part of the UNIX philosophy: a simple tool that "does one thing and does it well" is easy to debug, easy to hack on..."
Slackware is a typical example of the UNIX philosophy. So fast, so simple, so smart. And look at how "intelligently" it manages dependencies...
Yes, Simon, KISS (Keep It Strictly Strange) is the way to go, isn't it? Things like MX Linux are "abomination". Even a little girl can use it with no difficulty.
I don't understand why people want an operating system that "just works". What's the reason for all that ease and completeness?
Oh my Gosh: MX Linux even got Wi-Fi firmware and a Web browser... Unbelievable!
38 • Keep it Simple? (by Dude on 2021-02-02 13:38:28 GMT from United States)
I like a simple intuitive graphical interface like MATE. Keep it simple by supporting MY WiFi adapter out of the box with no driver hassles. Keep it simple by making the whole distro fit on a bootable 2gb thumb drive. Synaptic and Apt are simple. This is why I stick with Linux Mint.
39 • Keep it simple stupid (by Mariano on 2021-02-02 18:02:33 GMT from Argentina)
From Wikipedia:
KISS
The acronym was reportedly coined by Kelly Johnson, lead engineer at the Lockheed Skunk Works (creators of the Lockheed U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird spy planes, among many others).
While popular usage has transcribed it for decades as "Keep it simple, stupid", Johnson transcribed it as "Keep it simple stupid" (no comma), and this reading is still used by many authors.
The principle is best exemplified by the story of Johnson handing a team of design engineers a handful of tools, with the challenge that the jet aircraft they were designing must be repairable by an average mechanic in the field under combat conditions with only these tools. Hence, the "stupid" refers to the relationship between the way things break and the sophistication available to repair them.
The acronym has been used by many in the U.S. military, especially the U.S. Navy and United States Air Force, and in the field of software development.
Variants
The principle most likely finds its origins in similar minimalist concepts, such as Occam's razor, Leonardo da Vinci's "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication", Shakespeare's "Brevity is the soul of wit"...
40 • KISS (by Cheker on 2021-02-02 18:35:21 GMT from Portugal)
Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, but it seems that user friendliness and simplicity and inversely proportional. Being user friendly implies above all a nice visual design and some easily accessible buttons to configure/do things.
These "buttons" under the hood are just automation.
This automation is precisely what goes against the simplicity mentioned in the KISS principle, and that the distros the likes of Slack and Gentoo keep alive. You take this automation away, and the user is left to their own devices and has to figure things out...the system is now simpler, but the user has to know what they're doing.
The billion dollar question is how do you achieve a good balance between making a system acceptably easy to use, whilst not being a dependency/troubleshooting nightmare.
41 • KISS; @40--Ckeker (by R. Cain on 2021-02-02 22:10:27 GMT from United States)
No, you are definitely NOT looking at this wrong; the people who "...look at this wrong..." are those who think that "simplicity" and "elegance" are mutually exclusive; that you can NOT have both at the same time. One of THE simplest AND most elegant distributions *ever* was Linux Mint 13--"MAYA"--whose sophistication, at ≈ 900 MB, has never been equaled.
I don't understand the search for new distros which fulfill an artificial criterion (who is the arbiter of the 'simplicity' of a distribution?), while not even work properly, or universally...
"..."The Kwort distribution is available in one edition for 64-bit (x86_64) computers. The ISO file is a 1GB download...This brought my trial with Kwort to an early conclusion. “
“...The distribution [SulinOS] runs on 64-bit (x86_64) machines exclusively...the desktop editions vary...up to about 1.7GB...
...Unfortunately this left me with a distribution that included virtually no software, no working package manager to install new applications, and no documentation that would help me address these issues. This again brought my trial to an early end.”
What, exactly, is SO HARD about understanding that one of the simplest and most feature-complete distributions has occupied the #1 spot on DW now for a VERY long time: MX Linux. Its versions 17 and 18.1 were named the very best distros of 2018 and 2019, and contains one of the best Linux tools ever: MXTools. [Stick with v. 18.1/2/3 (<1400 MB); rev 19 is not near as elegant, or worthy].
And if you want something *really* small AND feature-complete, give MX Linux's stable-mate, antiX v. 17.4.1, a whirl; 32/64-bit, <1000 MB.
Oh, one more thing: no systemD on either of these.
42 • To KIS or not to KIS (by Simon Wainscott-Plaistowe on 2021-02-02 23:23:47 GMT from New Zealand)
Gone are my days of distro-hopping. I like my Linux workstations to "just work" so I can get on with the stuff I have to get done. To that end, Linux Mint works for me (either Cinnamon or XFCE, depending). IPFire is simple and does me well as firewall and basic fileserver. And for R&D and general experimentation, anything goes - simple or not, it's all good fun and learning.
43 • @41 R,Cain: (by dragonmouth on 2021-02-03 00:16:20 GMT from United States)
As one of my co-workers was wont to say "Elegance is for tailors."
44 • elegance, simple and complex, and relativity (by Titus_Groan on 2021-02-03 08:27:03 GMT from New Zealand)
there are two parts to the use of a computer, the OS and the user.
The computer (and OS) typically does nothing of and by itself, it cannot even plug in the power plug.
are you a simple user of a complex OS or a complex user of a simple OS?
A distro may look great, but if it doesnt work, *elegance* wont cut it.
simple test.
remove the file manager from any distro.
if you are now having difficulty, then it is a complex OS (relative to you) and you are a simple user.
If you are having no issues, then it is a KISS OS (relative to you) and you are confident and likely competent as well, in the use of your OS.
Didn't there used to be *Dumb Terminals* ?
There is elegance in the terminal, eye of the beholder and all that.
45 • KIS (by tad.generic on 2021-02-03 14:00:36 GMT from Canada)
Why less love for KIS? Because the vast majority want to USE technology, not MAINTAIN technology. Computers have long left the realm of the tinkerer geek.
Computers need to Just Work, so the PC needs to be as much akin to an appliance as possible. ChromeOS would be the closest thing to an appliance that isn't a tablet/phone OS - turn it on and use it. If a user has to spend time thinking about and mucking with what their apps run on, rather than using their apps, that's not going to endear them to your product.
Saw an analogy using transmissions. Go further and use cars. How many here know how to operate a Model-T? We live in a world where the vast majority of cars built today are very appliance-like where the average driver could operate most any consumer vehicle after finding the ignition - that's maturity and standardization, and in consumer technology that's a good thing.
Most people own cars in order to take them places with low effort and high convenience, not because they love cars and tinkering on cars. Most just pick a car based on style and colour, now what type of steel is used in the crankshaft or how many valves per cylinder it has.
Congratulations - Linux has come at last to a point where it can, in some cases, become an appliance. That's something to celebrate.
And that doesn't take anything away from those who love tuning carburetors, running gearboxes, or building their own engine - the hobbyist aspect will always be there.
46 • But what exactly do they mean by "simple"? (by Igor on 2021-02-03 14:43:10 GMT from Croatia)
Obviously not simplicity of use by a user who regards computing as nothing else but a tools to accomplish something else than computing itself. Pay attention, this is the future of personal computing using devices akin to the notebook personal computer, obviously the context of this thread. Kids with their mobiles do not care about PCs any more than about maths, and we, participants here, are very soon going to be sort of niche, much like HiFi or radio enthusiasts.
Is it then simplicity of the OS design? Because nothing in this regards beats primitive and dirty DOS of old. Compared to it, UNIX is as simple as quantum physics.
Is it simplicity of coding? What exactly is simple code? Is there a useful 20000 lines of C code that another coder can read and understand a prima vista without any knowledge of its coding tasks and circumstances? For, when people reverse engineer a software, they do not start at what they see at hex editor, but at the behaviour of the program.
From all that I read in this thread so far, a software system is considered simple if it is easy to grasp and manage to its administrator. Even though administrator is extremely important role, it is just one sort of user, and not the one that is the target.
I propose a thought experiment. Let us cut off networking, GUI, all peripherals but a keyboard, and redesign the hardware accordingly. We can get sort of primitive PC, as in the beginnings, basic interpreter being its sole user interface. This way, the OS design could be radically simplified.
This is my point: use case is the criterion of both simplicity and usability of just about anything. People are able and willing to accomplish more and more things by means of computing, and so it is going more and more complex. And we are not willing to employ a full timer to be able to achieve that. We want the toolbox to be personal like in personal computer. Simplicity in this regard is nowadays named usability. I agree, but pursuing the basic rationale of computing, to aid people doing many different things, where exactly is the place for simplification? I believe it is in detail, just like with good coding. No razor, no silver bullet.
47 • My experience running Kwort (by eco2geek on 2021-02-03 18:54:40 GMT from United States)
I downloaded the Kwort ISO, burned it on a blank DVD+R, and booted from it.
The options were to boot with or without KMS (rather than RMS), meaning Kernel Mode Setting, which has to do with setting display resolution and depth (see the Arch Wiki for more about that). In my case, it loaded the nouveau display driver when run with KMS.
The boot procedure looked everywhere for the root filesystem, and after a long time spent examining every other partition on my computer, it finally found it on the DVD (aka /dev/sr0). But it didn't run a graphical live desktop like I was expecting. Instead, it gave a synopsis of how to install Kwort, which looked pretty complicated, and then left me sitting at a root prompt in the console.
It didn't seem to have an installation program; rather, it was all expected to be done manually. There can't be too many Linux distributions like that nowadays. I don't have the spare computer or the patience to do that, so that ended my time with Kwort.
48 • Kwort trials (by barnabyh on 2021-02-03 21:46:57 GMT from Germany)
My experience just now was almost exactly like that of the previous commenter, no. 47.
After presssing one of the two entries it showed only a blinking underscore cursor on black screen. I had to hit enter a few times for it to boot. It then gave a synopsis with I think 7 options to install Kwort, only to tell me in the last line I had now installed Kwort and to reboot. Gave me a slight cramp but knew that couldn' t be the case. Reboot - other OS still fine.
Second option, without KMS, did not go past the blinking cursor even with hitting enter.
49 • KIS - Just an argument over English language? (by Hoos on 2021-02-04 09:59:34 GMT from Singapore)
To me, all this hooha ultimately comes down to a difference in interpretation of the English word "simple" by the 2 factions. They both object to how distro A can be called "simple" when their understanding of that word is different:
1. easy to understand and figure out how to use = in respect of interface, layout, leading to easy usability by even end users who aren't familiar with the innards of the hardware or software in question (example: "so simple even a kid could use it")
2. minimal base, as few moving/working parts as possible = providing the bare minimum that is required for something to work, and depending on the expertise and effort of the end user to add on whatever else he or she needs, so there are no extraneous parts or services or packages in there (example: "living a simple, decluttered life")
The thing is, the 2 meanings are pretty much polar opposites because meaning 1 requires more effort/input from the creators and less from the end user, and vice versa. But that is the English language.
My question: how is this concept of KIS - an English acronym - translated in other languages? I would assume it won't even be KIS in some languages that don't use the Latin alphabet. Even if they do, it might not be "S".
And I suspect there might be totally different words used for the 2 meanings above.
Would be curious to hear from people who use other languages.
50 • @49 - KIS (cont) (by Hoos on 2021-02-04 10:18:51 GMT from Singapore)
Sorry, just to clarify that my point is that if the 2 different meanings used different words, there wouldn't be such a push back from the "user-friendly/intuitive" camp when an Arch user (just an example) tells them that Arch follows the Keep It Simple concept.
It seems to me that the main objection is the word "simple". As in, "how can you even call Arch simple?"
51 • @49, @50 better language for KIS (by curious on 2021-02-04 10:38:22 GMT from Germany)
English provides other words than simple that can distinguish between the two cases.
How about KIP (keep it primitive) or KIM (keep it minimal) versus KIE (keep it easy)?
As for other languages, in German at least I can't recall an expression that is used as commonly as KIS or KISS.
52 • KIS/KIC doesn't matter (by Stefan on 2021-02-04 12:06:42 GMT from Brazil)
@51
"How about KIP (keep it primitive) or KIM (keep it minimal) versus KIE (keep it easy)?"
What about KISS (Keep It Simply STABLE)?
The problem with the vast majority of Linux/BSD distros is the insane quantity of bugs present in their software. Devs should make more testing before releasing them. Newer software is not necessarily better software. And it has nothing to do with the simplicity or complexity of a distro. KIS/KIC doesn't matter when instability is a show stopper.
53 • Once upon a time... (by Jeff on 2021-02-05 02:55:33 GMT from United States)
Way back in the beginning computers were sold as tools to automate tedious tasks, so that humans would not need to waste their valuable time doing them.
So many in the Linux/BSD/FOSS world seem to want to do those tedious tasks so that their computer does not need to.
54 • GUI - WIMP vs shifty-keystroke, etc (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2021-02-05 18:02:29 GMT from United States)
WIMP has its place - it allows getting started with new software quickly - but complex shift-and-keystroke combinations permit greater productivity with complex software, for when one has climbed a learning curve. Perhaps a multi-touch/gesture also delivers an advantage for certain tools?
KISS often means Keep It Short & Simple - Long Simple procedures are wearing.
I haven't seen any description of the advantages of systemd - for one-user-at-a time systems - that isn't a confused, rambling incoherence of buzzwords, but I suspect much of the distaste comes from contributing devs being "leveraged" to clean up someone else's huge ugly piles of code. (Like the kernel?)
Sometimes getting addicted to someone's money has consequences.
Number of Comments: 54
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