 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 901, 25 January 2021 |
Welcome to this year's 4th issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
The Linux ecosystem is very dynamic with new projects being created all the time and other distributions fading away. This week we discuss a new project to the DistroWatch database, Mabox Linux. The Mabox project is based on Manjaro and we report on its key features below. In our News section we talk about the GALPon MiniNo project shutting down as the developers struggle to keep up with the changing software landscape. We also reports on Slackware testing a new version of the distribution's C library while Fedora tries out GNOME 40, and pfSense implements WireGuard VPN support. We also talk about Red Hat offering free production subscriptions in the wake of phasing out the CentOS Linux distribution while Corellium gets Ubuntu working on Apple's ARM-powered Mac Mini. One of the issues the GALPon MiniNo developers mentioned causing trouble was their project's migration to systemd. A lot of people have questions about the growing and evolving systemd software and we talk about this core component of many modern Linux distributions in our Questions and Answers column. We are then pleased to share the releases of the past week and list the torrents we are seeding. We conclude this week with an Opinion Poll question about parent distributions. Do you have a preferred family of Linux distributions you tend to use more than others? Let us know what you prefer about one family of Linux distributions over the others in the comments. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
Content:
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (14MB) and MP3 (10MB) formats.
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Mabox Linux 20.10
The Mabox Linux distribution is a rolling release project based on Manjaro Linux. The Mabox website describes itself as follows:
Mabox Linux is based on Manjaro, featuring [a] customized Openbox window manager preconfigured to be ready to use. It was inspired by CrunchBang, and [uses] some BunsenLabs utilities adapted for Manjaro. Mabox Linux uses some of Xfce and LXDE components.
The Mabox project publishes semi-regular snapshots, the latest one at the time of writing is version 20.10. The distribution is available in a single edition featuring a customized Openbox graphical environment. The ISO we can download is 1.9GB in size and runs on 64-bit (x86_64) machines only.
Before I talk about running the distribution I want to make one comment about the Mabox website. For the most part the website is clear, to the point, and easy to navigate. However, any time I visited the project's news page an access password prompt would appear telling me I was accessing the "Danger Zone". The prompt appeared every time I accessed the news page or any blog post. Cancelling the password prompt had no impact on my being able to read the news posts. This is an odd quirk or oversight for the website to have and makes it seem like something has been misconfigured.
The live media
The Mabox Linux live media presents us with a boot menu where we can start the operating system with either all open source drivers or with some proprietary drivers. Starting the distribution loads the Openbox window manager. There is a lot going on in the Openbox environment. A list of desktop shortcuts appears to the left of the screen. A Conky status panel appears to the right, showing us CPU, memory, and disk usage statistics. Across the top of the screen is a transparent panel that features two shortcut menus, an application menu, quick-launch buttons, a task switcher, and the system tray. There is also a widget for switching between virtual workspaces.
The theme is mostly black and white, with title bars and folder icons displayed in green. I found there were networking and battery icons in the system tray, though no volume control. There is a PulseAudio volume mixer in the application menu.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- The application menu and Openbox with status panels removed
(full image size: 1.2MB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
Installing
Mabox places a button for launching the Calamares graphical system installer in its line of quick-launch icons. Calamares is a great installer that quickly walks us through selecting our keyboard layout, time zone, and setting up a user account. The installer offers both guided and manual partitioning. The manual options are quite easy to navigate and Calamares displays a graphical chart of the disk we are working on. The guided partitioning option will take over available space with a single ext4 filesystem. It does not set up a swap partition and the system does not create a swap file either. The initial installation went smoothly and I encountered no problem with Calamares.
First impressions
My new copy of Mabox Linux booted to a graphical login screen. From there we can sign into the Openbox session and we are greeted by a welcome screen. The welcome window presents us with three groups of buttons. One group accesses software management tools to help us install updates, new kernels, and new applications. The second group offers access to on-line resources such as the Mabox website, documentation, and user forums. The third group connects us to options for contributing to the project such as developer resources and donation options.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- The welcome window
(full image size: 619kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
I will come back to the software management options a little later. For now I merely want to acknowledge the welcome window buttons work and launch utilities which also functioned properly.
Once I was finished with the welcome window my next impression of Mabox was that the desktop is very busy, even crowded. There are panels and status updates, and bars of icons all around the screen. There are two quick-access panels to the left and right sides of the display. I kept accidentally opening these when moving my mouse to click on other items because things are packed together. Some people like a lot of options and features to be front-and-centre and it's certainly a valid preference, but I prefer my desktop to be more quiet and empty.
Also on the topic of the interface, I ran into an issue when resizing application windows. The window borders are very thin and I found them difficult to drag or move. There are ways around this, but it's a little inconvenience that adds up over time.
One curious design choice I ran into was with the lock screen. When Openbox locks, instead of presenting the user with a password prompt and box in which to type, we are shown a mostly empty screen with the instructions to simply type our password. There doesn't seem to be any visible feedback to typing, but typing the correct password does cause Openbox to unlock. I don't believe I've ever encountered a lock screen like this one before. It works, but feels strange.
Hardware
I began by experimenting with Mabox in a VirtualBox environment. The distribution booted quickly and ran smoothly. The Openbox window manager was unusually light and responsive in the virtual machine. The graphical environment did not dynamically resize with the VirtualBox window, however I could adjust the desktop resolution using a tool in the application menu. Unfortunately Mabox did not remember screen resolution changes so this adjustment had to be repeated each time the distribution booted in the virtual machine.
When I ran Mabox on my laptop the distribution performed well. It again booted quickly, was fast to launch programs and the desktop was responsive. Audio volume was set unusually low, but this can be adjusted with the PulseAudio mixer utility.
A fresh install of Mabox used about 6.5GB of disk space. Signing into the Openbox session used 245MB of RAM. This amount rose slightly to 260MB when the welcome window was open.
Applications
Mabox ships with a few popular applications, but mostly uses less common programs and small utilities. The Firefox web browser is one of the few mainstream applications available out of the box. There is a Mail Reader launcher, but no e-mail client is installed for us.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- Running Firefox and the file manager
(full image size: 282kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
Mabox also ships with the Geany editor, a PDF viewer (qpdfview), the DeaDBeeF audio player, mpv for playing videos, and a full range of media codecs. There is a tool called CPU-X installed for looking up information on the CPU, hardware, and memory statistics. The GParted and Htop tools are included along with a small image viewer. The PCManFM file manager is included for us.
We are also given a useful settings panel called the Mabox Linux Control Center which I found fairly easy to navigate and quite useful when it came to customizing the distribution. There are also a lot of smaller, stand-alone configuration tools for adjusting Openbox and the desktop panels. In the background Mabox ships with the systemd init software and version 5.4 of the Linux kernel.
Some command line programs (such as free, cp, and more) in Mabox are aliased, sometimes in ways which make them conflict with parameters we might use or which can change their expected behaviour. We can work around this by unaliasing the commands or prefixing them with a backslash character.
Another configuration choice which is harder to work around is that the shortcut for switching tabs in Firefox (Ctrl+Tab) is also hardwired to open one of the desktop's side panels. This means any time the user wants to switch tabs in Firefox, they instead open a desktop panel that steals focus from the browser. There are some configuration tools which will confirm the Ctrl+Tab shortcut opens the panel, but none of them would allow me to change this setting. I'm sure there must be a way to change this shortcut conflict, but it was not immediately clear how.
Speaking of configuration changes, configuration is done through several different tools and text files. It can be difficult to find which one addresses which issue. For example, right-clicking the clock widget opens a tool to adjust date & time and time zones, but does not provide a way to change the layout or format of the clock. That setting is not even in the same control panel. It requires going through three layers into panel configuration settings, opening the Tint settings, then selecting Clock options. The time format needs to be typed manually using a format (like %H:%m) without any guide on which letters to use. I occasionally ran into the same issue with other customizations where settings were difficult to find or buried multiple levels down.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- The Mabox Control Center
(full image size: 921kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
These issues I ran into are not bugs, but they are inconvenient. I had a similar minor issue with the screenshot utility which saves images with multiple ":" characters in the filenames. This makes it harder to transfer multiple files because common transfer utilities treat the ":" symbol as an indication of a hostname rather than a filename. Again, this is not a bug, but it is a poor default that will conflict with common tools or scripts and make the distribution just a little harder to use.
Software management
There are a few tools included in Mabox for managing software packages. Pamac is the main software manager. Choosing to install updates from the welcome window opens Pamac and we can also access the tool through the application menu. Pamac features three tabs, called Browse, Installed, and Updates. The Updates tab lists available updated packages and we can choose which ones we wish to download. The first day I was running Mabox there were 758MB of updates available, nearly half the size of the original ISO I downloaded. This makes me think the distribution is due for another install media refresh. Despite the large download, Pamac successfully grabbed and applied the waiting updates.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- The Pamac software manager
(full image size: 604kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
The Browse tab of Pamac allows us to browse available software using a few different views. The view I used most arranged items into software categories. We can select which category we wish to browse from a drop-down menu. Then clicking on a package's entry brings up a page with a short description, licensing information, and the name of the repository which holds the package. We can queue multiple items to install and apply them all at once. Pamac will pause and show us a list of dependencies before it proceeds with installing new applications.
The third tab, Installed, shows application we already have on the system. Each of the three tabs of Pamac worked fairly well. Sometimes I felt like the list of software groups, featured on the Browse tab, was too long (and too fine-grained) as it makes finding some types of software harder. For example, there are seven groups of just Kodi add-ons to browse through. This is another case of the default behaviour not being a bug, just inconvenient.
There is another tool we can use to install software and it is accessible from the welcome window. This second tool is called the Manjaro Application Utility. It begins with a list of software categories. We can click a category to expand it and see a handful of popular utilities. Clicking a box next to a desired application will queue it for installation.
Mabox Linux 20.10 -- Adding applications
(full image size: 621kB, resolution: 1366x768 pixels)
The Application Utility works and, though it is simple in its style, it makes finding and installing a handful of popular applications straight forward. I like that this utility is featured on the welcome window as it helps gets us up and running with some good open source applications right from the start.
Conclusions
For me, running Mabox was a curious experience. The reason being that the distribution never seemed to do anything objectively wrong or buggy. Everything worked properly, the system was fast, stable, and often offered multiple approaches to accomplishing tasks. Mabox inherits Arch Linux's large repositories of software and the cutting-edge packages which make its grandparent famous. The lightweight Openbox window manager is flexible and fast. Plus I like that Mabox doesn't ship a lot of applications, just some good basics, and gives us multiple tools to add more items we might want. However, Mabox never felt like a good fit for me.
It's hard to put my finger on why exactly this was because the distribution, objectively, does a lot of things well. However, the style of the distribution isn't at all to my taste. The Openbox session is very busy and I like quiet interfaces. Mabox is a cutting-edge rolling release and I like static and boring. Mabox has a tonne of status panels, shortcuts, and an elegant welcome screen. I want my operating system to stay out of the way and not distract me. Mabox has many configuration tools and they all seem to work, but the number of them (and the lack of a central organization for them) can make it harder to find the options I want to adjust.
I guess what made the experience feel odd is Mabox uses a really minimal window manager, but with all the bells and whistles enabled. It ships with very few desktop applications, yet the menu is crowded with options. The system looks really sleek and modern, but a lot of options require we tweak text-based configuration files by hand. It makes for an odd series of juxtapositions.
Objectively, I think Mabox is quite good. The only real bug I ran into was Firefox and the desktop panel using the same shortcut, but otherwise the system was fast, smooth, and capable. It just has an unusual approach to several aspects of it. Which makes me feel the distribution is objectively good, but subjectively not to my taste.
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Hardware used in this review
My physical test equipment for this review was a de-branded HP laptop with the following
specifications:
- Processor: Intel i3 2.5GHz CPU
- Display: Intel integrated video
- Storage: Western Digital 700GB hard drive
- Memory: 6GB of RAM
- Wired network device: Realtek RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast
- Wireless network device: Realtek RTL8188EE Wireless network card
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Visitor supplied rating
Mabox Linux has a visitor supplied average rating of: 9/10 from 74 review(s).
Have you used Mabox Linux? You can leave your own review of the project on our ratings page.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith) |
GALPon MiniNo shuts down, Slackware tests new C library, Fedora to use GNOME 40, pfSense gets WireGuard, Red Hat offers free production subscriptions, Ubuntu booting on Apple ARM
The developers of the GALPon MiniNo distribution announced recently that the project would be shutting down. The Debian-based project mostly focused on supporting older computers and featured lightweight desktop environments. While Linux distributions being discontinued is not all that unusual due to cost or time commitment limitations from the developers, this time it appears as though changing technologies in the Linux ecosystem played a larger role. The closure notice on the project's website reads: "We declare MiniNo and PicarOS officially dead, after many years of carrying out these projects with only two people, our personal complications and, recently, the complications of systemd and Wayland, have come up against our limitations and it is impossible for us to maintain the required level."
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Major software updates and changes are a regular and ongoing concern distribution maintainers need to address. The Slackware project highlighted this in a recent changelog post where testing and upgrading the distribution's C library was discussed. "With all those fixes in place (plus a few more), we have tested and found that everything in the tree compiles cleanly against glibc-2.32. So, the plan is to have another mass rebuild soon against that. Although the ABI didn't technically change, I've heard that libpthread may not be 100% compatible in some corner cases, so we'll err on the side of caution. Hopefully we can get a little testing done on the recompiled system and then go through it all again at the beginning of next month when glibc-2.33 is released. Other than that, how's Mesa working these days? If there are still issues that are resolved by dropping back to the previous branch, let's try to figure those out."
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The Fedora team plans to include the new GNOME 40 desktop in Fedora 34, expected to be released around the middle of 2021. GNOME 40 includes GTK 4 which is a new version of the graphical toolkit used to make the GNOME desktop environment. "As usual, Fedora 34 will include the latest available upstream GNOME release. This time, the GNOME release includes some noteworthy changes, and the purpose of this change proposal is to draw attention to them. GNOME is changing its versioning scheme, and the coming GNOME 40 release is the first one with following the new scheme. GNOME 40 includes GTK 4, which is a new stable release of GTK. With the release of GTK 4, upstream GTK considers GTK 2 to be end-of-life. The GNOME shell overview is being redesigned for GNOME 40.". Additional information on these changes can be found in the Fedora wiki.
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In December we reported on the FreeBSD operating system gaining support for WireGuard, a small and fast VPN technology. This VPN implementation is now coming to FreeBSD-based projects like pfSense, thanks to work sponsored by Netgate. "Sponsored by Netgate, the development of a kernel-resident WireGuard implementation for FreeBSD and pfSense has been over a year of effort in the making. It was committed to FreeBSD on November 29, 2020 and can be previewed in pfSense CE. Source code is available now via the pfSense public code repository. Binary images will be available January 20, 2021 for those who are tracking the 2.5.0 development branch update from the pfSense GUI, or who are utilizing the 2.5.0 development branch installation media."
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In December we reported on Red Hat's plan to phase out CentOS Linux and use CentOS Stream as a development platform. In the wake of Red Hat's announcement several distributions announced plans to fill the void left by CentOS Linux's demise. Red Hat itself is trying to attract former CentOS Linux users by offering more free subscriptions to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, including the option of running these subscriptions in production environments. (Previously free subscriptions were restricted to development systems.) "We're addressing this by expanding the terms of the Red Hat Developer program so that the Individual Developer subscription for RHEL can be used in production for up to 16 systems. That's exactly what it sounds like: for small production use cases, this is no-cost, self-supported RHEL. You need only to sign in with a free Red Hat account (or via single sign-on through GitHub, Twitter, Facebook, and other accounts) to download RHEL and receive updates."
Meanwhile, Rocky Linux, a clone of Red Hat Enterprise Linux created by a former CentOS developer, plans to publish its first release candidate in March.
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The Apple Mac Mini, powered by an ARM processor, impressed a lot of people in the technical community when it was launched last year, but one aspect of the device many people did not like was how locked down it was. Despite the hurdles involved, some Linux developers have made progress in getting Ubuntu running on the Apple device. "Developers at ARM virtualisation company Corellium have managed to get Ubuntu 20.04 up and running on the new Apple Silicon Mac Mini. And we're not talking 'it boots and prints a load of text' running here. No, this is the full Ubuntu desktop experience - and it's already being described as 'completely usable'!" There is still work to do in order to get Ubuntu running on the ARM-powered system in a way which will be accessible to most users.
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These and other news stories can be found on our Headlines page.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Deep diving into systemd
Ghost-hunter asks: Maybe Jesse could spend time explaining what systemd is, what it does and is it really dangerous? Is there really a "boogy man" in the machine? Jesse, if you have done that please point to that dissertation.
Jesse answers: I have written some articles on systemd over the years. Starting in 2011, I wrote ten articles about systemd - what it is and why it exists. I also wrote occasionally about the forks which resulted from systemd being adopted by most Linux distributions and the controversy surrounding the project. You can find all of those past articles in our archive.
Before I go any further I want to acknowledge that one of the reasons I usually don't comment on systemd directly, one way or the other these days, is that for about two years now I've been the primary maintainer for the SysV init software. Since SysV init is often used as the basis for comparison with systemd it is difficult for me to give an unbiased opinion on either project. This is why my last systemd Q&A article was written over two years ago, I try to avoid talking about my personal projects and opinions on DistroWatch. However, I am going to try to put aside my SysV init maintainer hat for a moment and answer your questions as objectively as I can.
As I mentioned, the articles I linked to above should hopefully explain what systemd is, how it tries to accomplish its goals (or at least what its original goals were), and why some people are opposed to its wide-spread adoption. Today I'll try to answer your questions that I have not covered in past articles.
First, is systemd dangerous? Most of the time, no, it's probably not dangerous. Most systems running systemd don't suffer from the experience. There have been a few bugs either caused by systemd or exposed by systemd which caused some pretty big problems in the past. The erasing files bug, the bricking hardware bug, the killing user processes at logout issue, and invalid username bug all come readily to mind. And, to be fair to people who don't like how systemd has been managed, the reactions to these bugs from the systemd developers were not diplomatic.
So there have been some serious bugs either caused by or exposed by systemd which could make running the software dangerous in the past in very specific situations. However, I don't think that is what you meant. I get the impression you weren't asking if systemd can be accidentally dangerous (any complex software can be problematic when it manages a lot of the low-level functions of an operating system), but were rather more interested in the "boogy man" concept, the idea that there is something malicious hiding in the code.
Is there something malicious in the systemd code? To be honest it is difficult to tell for sure. The systemd code, like many large and complex software projects, is huge. Version 247 of systemd included over 2,000 source code files that contained over 500,000 lines of code. This doesn't include unit tests, documentation, build rules, etc - just the source code. The whole archive is closer to 4,000 files containing about a million lines of text. In short, it's more than I will have time to read this weekend to authoritatively answer the question of whether there are any naughty bits hidden in the code.
However, with all that being said, I don't think there is any malicious code in systemd. There are certainly bugs, there are design decisions I (and others) may not agree with, but I don't think there are any hidden traps or backdoors in systemd that will compromise an operating system.
Why do I tend toward the idea that systemd is not malicious? There are a few reasons. The first is that systemd is developed as free and open source software in a public repository. For someone to insert something nasty into systemd they would need to do it not only in front of the world, but under the noses of other systemd developers. Or we need to go full on conspiracy theory and believe all the systemd developers are either malicious or unaware of the code being committed to their repository. I think both are unlikely.
Second, systemd has been around for nearly a decade. It has been widely adopted for at least half that time. If there were backdoors in systemd then it would seem odd we haven't heard about any ill effects. Where are the system administrators reporting weird network traffic from compromised machines? Where are the port scanners reporting mysterious openings? Where are the botnets of millions of Linux machines running systemd? I haven't heard of any of these things happening and you would think, after half a decade of deployment on millions of machines, if there were an exploit then at least one person would have noticed by now.
Third, and finally, as I mentioned before systemd is open source software. There are a lot of people, or at least a very vocal minority of people in the Linux community, who strongly dislike systemd, for one reason or another. Not one of them has dug into the source code for systemd and found an intentional problem. People have spotted bugs and some questionable choices in approach, but nothing that is going to turn your computer into a spam-flinging zombie. If anything, systemd's sandboxing features probably make it more secure in some situations than the alternatives.
Zooming out for a second, I'd like to point out that this "boogy man" argument crops up all the time when new software is introduced that is either different in its approach, large, or developed in a country other than the one the person is living in. It happens a lot with SELinux, with deepin, with any distribution originating from Russia, and lately it has been happening with systemd. In each case it is raising concerns about malicious intent without evidence. If someone claims there are backdoors in SELinux, systemd, or any other open source product the easiest way to address such claims are to simply ask the other person to show you where the backdoor exists in the code. The source code is all there, all visible to the public. Anyone with the time, expertise, or money can audit the code and find problems. So far no one has found backdoors or other malicious bits in systemd and I'm guessing that is because systemd isn't the result of a grand conspiracy. The systemd developers are just solving problems differently.
Traditionally Linux system tools and components have been developed as smaller, independent, interchangeable pieces. The systemd approach is more akin to developing a whole bunch of tools and functionality under one umbrella. It's a different approach, more akin to the "top-down" style of commercial Unix or other commercial vendors. It's different and that rubs a lot of people, particularly those who are accustomed to the "do one thing well" approach to Linux development, the wrong way. That doesn't make systemd malicious, just different in its philosophy.
Depending on your technical and philosophical preferences there are lots of reasons to like systemd, and there are lots of reasons to dislike it. Just as there are lots of reasons to prefer one desktop environment, office suite, or e-mail client over another. I think it's important to make a distinction between "This software project does something I don't like" versus "This software project is malicious." For some people systemd certainly falls into the former category, but I think it's a mistake to believe the latter.
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Additional answers can be found in our Questions and Answers archive.
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| Released Last Week |
XigmaNAS 12.2.0.4
Michael Zoon has announced the release of XigmaNAS 12.2.0.4, a new stable snapshot of the project's embedded, open-source NAS (Network-Attached Storage) distribution based on FreeBSD. This is major update and the first released built on top of FreeBSD 12.2: "We are pleased to announce the release of XigmaNAS version 12.2.0.4.8008 'Ornithopter'. XigmaNAS 12.2.0.4.8008 is a direct upgrade for the EOL 12.1.0.4.xxxx branch. Changes: upgrade to FreeBSD 12.2-RELEASE P2; WebGUI code and framework improvements; upgrade Bash to 5.1-p4; upgrade Samba to 4.13.1; upgrade lighttpd to 1.4.58; upgrade arcconf to 3_04_23699; upgrade zoneinfo to 2020f; upgrade msmtp to 1.8.14; upgrade smartmontools to 7.2; upgrade minidlna 1.3.0; upgrade syncthing to 1.12.1; upgrade ProFTPd to 1.3.7a; upgrade PHP to 7.4.14; upgrade Nano to 5.5. Fixes: fix only first lagg member is brought up; fix reload issue. Upgrade notes: make a backup of your existing system configuration and store it in a safe location - the system config.xml could be upgraded; clear your browser's cache to avoid display issues after upgrading from an older release." See the release announcement for a full changelog.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Torrent Corner |
Weekly Torrents
The table below provides a list of torrents DistroWatch is currently seeding. If you do not have a bittorrent client capable of handling the linked files, we suggest installing either the Transmission or KTorrent bittorrent clients.
Archives of our previously seeded torrents may be found in our Torrent Archive. We also maintain a Torrents RSS feed for people who wish to have open source torrents delivered to them. To share your own open source torrents of Linux and BSD projects, please visit our Upload Torrents page.
Torrent Corner statistics:
- Total torrents seeded: 2,306
- Total data uploaded: 35.9TB
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| Opinion Poll (by Jesse Smith) |
What is your favourite parent distribution?
Original, base distributions are the backbone of the Linux family. For instance, this week we talked about the Mabox Linux distribution, which is based on Manjaro Linux, which is in turn based on Arch Linux. Arch is one of several commonly used parent distributions. There are over 22 actively maintained projects which use Arch as their parent or grandparent. There are other popular parent distributions. For example, there are at least a dozen active, Fedora-based projects, nine based on Gentoo, and seven based on Slackware Linux. Debian is by far the most commonly used parent distribution with at least 120 children, with almost half of those (about 50) in the Ubuntu branch of the family tree.
People often gravitate toward one branch of the Linux family tree. We would like to hear which parent distribution is your favourite.
You can see the results of our previous poll on methods used to perform system administrative tasks in last week's edition. All previous poll results can be found in our poll archives.
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My favourite parent distro is
| Arch: | 576 (20%) |
| Debian: | 1042 (37%) |
| Fedora: | 117 (4%) |
| Gentoo: | 74 (3%) |
| openSUSE: | 130 (5%) |
| Slackware: | 153 (5%) |
| Ubuntu: | 497 (18%) |
| Other: | 118 (4%) |
| I do not have a favourite: | 130 (5%) |
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| Website News |
DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 1 February 2021. Past articles and reviews can be found through our Article Search page. To contact the authors please send e-mail to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews/submissions, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, donations, comments)
- Bruce Patterson (podcast)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • CentOS (by Pumpino on 2021-01-25 00:33:34 GMT from Australia)
So Red Hat has realised that people are ditching CentOS for other distros like Ubuntu and Debian rather than paying for subscriptions, so they're back-tracking by offering free subscriptions, which will likely be withdrawn in the future, leaving people having to pay.
Red Hat might not get as many new subscriptions from businesses, as IT professionals running home servers will switch to Ubuntu or Debian and implement one of these in production environments also. I'm glad I moved to Ubuntu 20.04.
2 • Red Hat Linux (by Yan on 2021-01-25 00:36:44 GMT from Canada)
Red Hat has shown itself to be unreliable by suddenly cutting the support period for CentOS 8 by 8 years. I'm not about to ask for a free subscription to Red Hat Linux. Fool me once...
3 • Systemd (by Friar Tux on 2021-01-25 01:12:40 GMT from Canada)
Jesse, I commend you on that fair treatment of systemd. (Considering you maintain SysV and all.) I, personally, don't care what init system is used so long as it works well with the distro at hand. (In fact, most of the distros I've tested that did NOT work out well were using init systems OTHER than systemd.)
As for the poll, again, I really have no preferred parent OS so long as the distro derived from it works out-of-box. At present, I'm using Mint. I see it as Debian putting together a really good OS. Ubuntu taking that and improving on it and kicking it back into the pool. The Mint improving on Ubuntu and releasing that back into the pool. I HAVE tried Feren OS (which takes Mint and enhances it) but unfortunately Feren seems to go belly up at every other update. And I don't have the inclination or time to fiddle with it each time.
One last thing, mostly for those of us from Canada and the States. If you have ever watched Loonytune's Duck Dodger on Planet X, have you noticed that the MX Linux logo looks like one of the scenes from that cartoon, a big X over a couple of mountains. (This is in no way intended to be derogatory, just for fun.)
4 • systemd, not for me (by MikeOh Shark on 2021-01-25 01:34:00 GMT from Netherlands)
I used Mint 13 back when it was current. One of the systemd updates broke my DNS setup without telling me and instead of a locked down and limited dnsmasq with DNScrypt to my preferred upstream resolver, systemd thought I needed to use google. The systemd command to stop the systemd resolver did not shut it down as all the documentation promised. Since then, I have been happily using MX Linux without having booted to use systemd.
I don't like mission creep and changes that happen without asking. If you make a change, present it to the users!
Thank you Jesse for maintaining SysV init for us!!
5 • Mabox (by Flyingalone on 2021-01-25 02:28:45 GMT from Australia)
The review about Mabox by Jesse is quite spot on , having played with it the last two days
It is a busy screen , changing the panels position from top to bottom also took some effort finding , Given time to find the settings I'm sure it can be toned down two or three notches and the business wouldn't be so in your face ,
Mabox is fast , good looking , heaps of potential it's just the settings especially need to be to somehow be easier to find , I'm a long time KDE user but here looking for the correct page was challenging at times ,
On the positive side that is one good way to improve your patience level (ha ha)
Those window borders same thing , given time to find and change , no luck this time.
The variety of themes is a BiG amount some never seen before with dark theme but not too dark more medium greys complimented with soft greens or oranges etc ,
Mabox will improve most Linux Distros do overtime ,
Mabox is fast , good looking , heaps of potential thats why I will seriously give another go , I reckon installing on a laptop for the lounge/entertainment area would good for watching Vimeo and yeah YT videos.
Really only thing on my wishlist for Mabox that would be a centralized settings panel
@Friar Tux
(In fact, most of the distros I've tested that did NOT work out well were using init systems OTHER than systemd.)
Glad I read that , your right , good to know other's have that happen too , well not good that it happens just good to read and good to know it's not just my doing .
6 • Fave "Parent" distro (by Otis on 2021-01-25 02:54:41 GMT from United States)
Systemd cleaned Arch = Artix. Amazoing distro.. and systemd free. ;)
Arch itself has been a mainstay of may others, as mentioned in the poll blurb. But it went with an init system I prefer not to have on my main machine.
7 • The non-favorite parent distros that I'm using only out of necessity (by Andy Prough on 2021-01-25 03:06:47 GMT from United States)
I use Debian-based (antiX, MX, Devuan) and Arch-based (Artix) distros because I need access to the large amounts of software, but I'm not at all happy with the design decisions of Debian or Arch. Ultimately I will probably end up rolling my own with Gentoo, where a lot of people seem to end up as they find their needs are met with outright hostility by these big "parent" distros.
8 • My current synonymn for Linux is Artix (by Jyrki on 2021-01-25 04:35:10 GMT from Czechia)
When I talk about Linux, I talk about Artix.
Linux has changed over decades I've been using it. And not all changes I can live with. Artix is the very last distro where I feel home.
But we all know that Linux distros come and go. And for this case I have started using BSDs on some machines and virtuals to get used to it.
9 • So many distros even the 'experts' are confused... (by R. Cain on 2021-01-25 06:06:10 GMT from United States)
Since when is Debian NOT the parent distro of Ubuntu?
Why is Ubuntu listed as a 'Parent' distro?
10 • Independent Distos (by Dan on 2021-01-25 07:19:22 GMT from United States)
I always preferred Independent distros such as Tiny Core, 4MLinux, and Kaos.
11 • Mabox vs PacBang (by Douglas Hinds on 2021-01-25 07:48:34 GMT from Mexico)
PacBang is the name of the current version of Manjaro Openbox (a community distro) and is what I have been using.
Which leads me to wonder what differences exist between the two.
12 • Using parent or child distribution (by Alexandru on 2021-01-25 08:54:31 GMT from Austria)
I am not only in "Debian family", but I actually use plain Debian itself.
When somebody asks me to install Linux on his computer, I usually install Mint (before Mint it was Ubuntu). But for me Mint is a no go in the long term. Mint is much more polished, easy to setup, has much of what you are ever want from an operating system.
But when I want to do some unusual configuration (and Mint has no graphical tool to configure it) I manually modify configuration files... and the change is not working. I don't know why. In Debian (and probably in many other distributions) the configuration file is the source of configuration, not only a compatibility layer for some subsystem, which is not standard across Linux distribution. In Mint I can use preinstalled software and can expect it works well. However, if I install some more software it may not work or may not work with some other software. I never have such issues in Debian, where each piece is tested to co-work with the whole. Only this way I can account for 59000 of packages, when I can use any combination thereof.
13 • Systemd... (by bigblack on 2021-01-25 09:28:55 GMT from United States)
I have noticed through using difficulties with systemd, on the distros that use it that I run ala debian. I sometimes rather than install a completely new system, just netcat from one machine to another an already setup system. I did this with debian and it will not boot, as I cannot fix the problem by chrooting into the sysytem and making the changes required - systemd stops that from happening - properly. The old init sysytem has no problems with this, so no to systemd for myself.
14 • Distros (by Hu on 2021-01-25 09:31:17 GMT from Spain)
I voted for Debian, but my favorite is Slackware where the changes do not come for the change's sake. I have voted that way because Debian has much more "children" and can be considered as a parent distro meanwhile Slackware is strong mainly in his own.
15 • Arch Linux as the parent (by OstroL on 2021-01-25 09:50:58 GMT from Poland)
All distros that take Arch Linux as their parent distro are more or less easy ways to install Arch, except for few that keeps their own cloned Arch repos. Most of them, while installing pulls packages from Arch. All of these distros can be turned to pure Arch Linux, after installing. Most times, it is the /etc/os-release, /etc/issue and /etc/lsb-release and few wallpapers are the difference. But, they are very good at giving the newbie an easy chance to use that great Arch Linux.
This is not like Ubuntu and Debian, where the deb packages don't match most of the time, even though most of the Ubuntu packages are made by Debian developers/packagers.
16 • Linux parents; small & large families, etc. (by Greg Zeng on 2021-01-25 10:12:49 GMT from Australia)
This week's theme topic touches on the failures & successes of the many families in open source Linux communities. The successful "parents" have the most third party coders using these beginnings. Coders are (1) system coders; (2) application coders; & (3) corporate investors of several types.
The system coders used to only stay with alpha-numerics, pretending that GUI etc were not Important. The first large "packaging system:" was RPM. However the later "loser" - Debian - attracted far more of the many three types of coders than the RPM package system ever had.
Each "child" in these open source families tries to be better in some narrow aspect than their parent. Systemd is one such developing child of the system code. Majority opinion seems to be that it is OK. Minority opinions also exist. For example, minority coders specialize in 32 bit, Wayland, BTRFS, and other Linux "independents".
Some users prefer the smaller independents. Corporate Investors also devote staff, code, & supports to Linux development. Notable are Google, IBM, Microsoft, but not Apple. Often ignored by some Linux users are the open source products from Google: Android & Chromium OS. Just as the traditional computer users stay with the larger computer systems, these traditionalists seem to want to ignore the latest small computer systems which are also open source: IoT, networking, Android & Chromium devices, etc.
Traditionalists are generally slow to recognize public market places. Luckily this Covid-19 world, with its forced Internet reliance in study, research, business and recreation, will continue leading the traditional computing industries away from their elitism. The children of the children, such as Mabox (ex-Arch, ex-Manjaro), or Mint (ex-Debian, ex-Ubuntu) will attempt more risky experiments than their conservative parents. As defined by the long & tested laws of "evolution", most children do not do anything remarkable with their lives. But they do provide testing areas for future support & innovation.
The RPM children, compared to the Debian children, are disadvantaged because so many third party coders are by the complex & incompatible RPM binary codes. Eventually, perhaps the Linux containers such as Flatpak, might smooth enough, to attract the application coders away from Microsoft, Apple & Android. Until then, Linux on the desktop & general public usage will be a very lonely & distant Bronze Prize "winner".
17 • Parent distro and Boogeyman (by James on 2021-01-25 10:47:57 GMT from United States)
@ 9 • Since when is Debian NOT the parent distro of Ubuntu?
Why is Ubuntu listed as a 'Parent' distro?
Totally agree, and while using Ubuntu, I voted Debian.
The boogeyman. I used Point from Russia, and it was what Debian should be for the user. Unfortunately it was short lived. Yet I never worried it was from Russia.
18 • systemd vs the others (by slink on 2021-01-25 11:32:11 GMT from United States)
I understand the concerns of those who prefer other alternate init systems over systemd. I essentially agree with their arguments although I don't know enough about the internals of any init system to prove or disprove their arguments. It just "sounds right" to me.
That said, I use systemd. Mainly because it's in all the major distros and because I have difficulty getting some programs to run with other init systems. The main sticking point seems to be vpn for Linux. I am required to use one of these for work, and I have a second one for personal use, and both of them assume systemd is running. If I could find a way to get them going under sysvinit, or runit, or whatever else I would do so.
19 • Parent distro (by Pat Menendez on 2021-01-25 11:45:11 GMT from Canada)
Why wasn't Mandrake, the parent for PCLinuxOS, Rosa, Mageia, etc. mentioned? With a user Rating of 9.0 Rosa should be in 9th place on that list but isn't mentioned and both PCLinuxOS and Mageia also place well on that list. Mandrake is older than Gentoo and Ubuntu, which isn't a parent. All the Ubuntu forks do Ubuntu better than Ubuntu! Fedora isn't a parent any more than Mandrake either since it is directly connected to Red Hat. Mandrake split off far earlier and has NO connection to Red Hat now.
20 • systemd (by Theodoro on 2021-01-25 12:12:30 GMT from Brazil)
Systemd is the worst and most hated init system, EVER. But it DOES work!
Unfortunately, I just could not boot MX Linux with SysV, only with Systemd...
Maybe it's time for Linux devs start playing with OpenRC and Runit.
21 • Opinion poll (by kc1di on 2021-01-25 12:34:16 GMT from United States)
I agree that Mandrake should have been listed as a parent, I know it went belly up. But in the family tree you have PCLinuxOS, Madravia etc. They are not connected to any other parentage.
22 • The OpenBox Desktop (by i like linux on 2021-01-25 12:34:52 GMT from Germany)
I like the OpenBox Desktop very much because its very lightwight ( i guess quicker than XFCE )
and its very customizable for my especially taste, including the jgmenu and a lot of writable config-files.
On the other side the last Release of OpenBox been five years ago and also there is a decreasing support for Xorg.
Nevertheless there is actually a little Revival of the OpenBox in new Releases of Distros. So the Madbox OS, the Crux OS, or the Slack Os.
I personally hope of a upcoming good working Distro with Waybox that working safty on Wayland.
23 • Parent distro (by Jesse on 2021-01-25 12:40:57 GMT from Canada)
@9: "Why is Ubuntu listed as a 'Parent' distro?"
As was explained in the poll question, Ubuntu has a huge number of children, and is not binary compatible with Debian, making it logical to give it its own category. Debian has about 120 children and grandchildren. Of those about half, 50-some, are specifically Ubuntu children.
Ubuntu's family has become so large, and incompatible, it has effectively become the head of its own category.
24 • Mandrake (by Jesse on 2021-01-25 13:02:06 GMT from Canada)
@19: "Why wasn't Mandrake, the parent for PCLinuxOS, Rosa, Mageia, etc. mentioned? "
Because it has been dead a long time. Mandrake Linux/Mandriva was discontinued years ago and the distributions in its family are now all independently developed. Mageia, PCLinuxOS, Rosa, etc are not longer children of a parent distro, they are their own base.
25 • VPN on Linux (by barnabyh on 2021-01-25 13:56:42 GMT from Germany)
I would agree that Ubuntu requires its own category because it has grown so large and has essentially spawned its own ecosystem.
Directed @18, slink: I have found that most provider-side VPN clients work with SysVinit, at least the ones I tried. Private Internet Access are now also actively supporting OpenRC, there just remains the question whether you want to use them. And of course whatever your work requires you to use is outside your control, oh well...
26 • systemd (by Tim on 2021-01-25 14:56:11 GMT from United States)
I do not think systemd is malicious, I just think it is a convoluted mess. It automates many, many functions, thus hiding them from the user. When the user has some problem, he usually has to dig through many levels of this hidden automation to find the actual problem. The "old" way was simpler and easier to troubleshoot.
27 • Poll (by tricyx1 on 2021-01-25 15:16:06 GMT from United States)
I use Arch for my primary desktop and old laptop, but debian or ubuntu variants for everything else. CentOS for work servers.
I would say I'm most familiar with the Debian ecosystem, but Arch... that AUR and wiki though is incredible.
28 • Parent distributions (by Microlinux on 2021-01-25 15:19:21 GMT from France)
Ubuntu is not a parent distribution. And you forgot Red Hat Enterprise Linux, whose clones are currently running more than half of the whole Internet.
29 • Parent... (by Friar Tux on 2021-01-25 15:54:27 GMT from Canada)
@28 (Microlinux) Sorry, my friend, but Ubuntu has many, many children. >> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg/2220px-Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg.png.
This only goes to the middle of 2019 but you'll get the idea.
30 • Of VPN's... (by tom joad on 2021-01-25 16:07:31 GMT from United States)
In the past year I have used a number of VPNs. During that time I have found Mullvad to be the overall best for me. Yes, I have tried the biggies; Nordvpn, Expressvpn, Windscribevpn, Airvpn and Protonvpn. Both Windscribe and Proton have free but limited vpn's available.Mozilla has just begun to offer a vpn too. It runs on the back of Mullvad though they stress it is not a recycled Mullvad. No, I haven't tried the Mozilla and likely won't.
All of the vpn's I have used worked pretty well with Mint Cinnamon. I had no real issue though some are much easier to use than others. Some have CLI's and gui's.
What really turned me off about most of the VPNs I have tried is price. One has to buy a year or more to get a decent monthly rate. No thanks. I don't want to be tied to any technology for a year or more.
Mullvad has $5 a month flat rate. One can pay by gift card or even real $$$$! And they offer the use of Wireguard too which is the new standard for VPNs. Mozilla is charging $5 a month flat rate also.
Thought some here would want to know.
31 • Arch (by Otis on 2021-01-25 16:20:13 GMT from United States)
@15 @20 No.. no no .. again.. ARTIX = No systemd .. and yes it's OpenRC, runit, or s8; your choice.
I see I'm sounding like a fanboi of Artix.. well, we keep seeing Arch mentioned as a (very good) parent of other distros that "enable the user to install Arch easier," or, "All distros that take Arch Linux as their parent distro are more or less easy ways to install Arch, except for few that keeps their own cloned Arch repos. Most of them, while installing pulls packages from Arch. All of these distros can be turned to pure Arch Linux, after installing."
Artix is Arch (again) without systemd. Love that phrase "It uses OpenRC, runit or s6 as init because PID1 must be simple, secure and stable."
32 • @ 30 on VPNs (by Lin on 2021-01-25 16:41:00 GMT from United States)
Well, I am using a VPN to post this comment. And, it is free.
33 • Parent distro (by Jesse on 2021-01-25 17:04:19 GMT from Canada)
@28: "Ubuntu is not a parent distribution. And you forgot Red Hat Enterprise Linux, whose clones are currently running more than half of the whole Internet. "
Ubuntu by any reasonable definition is a parent distribution, as explained in the poll question and in my previous comment. It has 50+ children which are not binary compatible with their grandparent, Debian.
Red Hat Enterprise Linux, on the other hand, is clearly not a parent distro. For two reasons: 1. Fedora is the parent distro in the Red Hat family. RHEL is a child of Fedora. 2. RHEL doesn't have children so much as clones. Oracle, CentOS Linux, Scientific, etc aren't based on RHEL so much as re-builds of the source code. I suppose you might argue that the clones are sort of children, but they'd still be better classified as children of Fedora, not RHEL.
34 • @ 25 VPN on Linux (by Lin on 2021-01-25 17:08:16 GMT from United States)
What has VPN to do with SysVinit or OpenRC or even SystemD? The same VPN can be had in Linux or in Windows. It is a web service, after all.
35 • Parent distro (by David on 2021-01-25 17:10:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm surprised that only 4% responded that they used an unlisted independent, considering that this would include Solus, PCLinuxOS, and Mageia. Of course, some bias is introduced by the fact that this is an English-language site — in Russia ALT and ROSA would be the most popular.
On the subject of Mandriva as a parent, it's still recorded in this site's search tool as the parent of ALT and ROSA, although not of PCLinuxOS, Mageia, or OpenMandriva!
36 • Child distros (by Akoi on 2021-01-25 17:12:41 GMT from United States)
Arch actually doesn't have child distros, not even Manjaro is such a child distro. Its packages come from Arch. But, Ubuntu is a child of Debian, for it has its own debs, which differ from the Debian debs. Mint and others are clones of Ubuntu, rather than children. If one might call them children, then they are vampires.
37 • @ 36 child distros (by Lin on 2021-01-25 17:17:05 GMT from United States)
You maybe right, for you cannot use Ubuntu debs to create a Debian install, vice versa, but you can always turn Manjaro to pure Arch with few actions.
38 • Deepin vs SystemD (by trebec on 2021-01-25 18:00:01 GMT from United States)
It a little ridiculous to compare the apprehension from systemd to the concerns over using deepin don't you think? One is mainly accused of violating the unix philosophy. The other is software developed in a country run by an authoritarian regime with an abysmal human rights record (see concentration camps, etc.) which has no qualms about spying/hacking/stealing intellectual property and often uses "private" enterprise to accomplish its goals. I think there is a tad more to people's unwillingness to use foreign software than simple FUD.
39 • software concerns (by Jesse on 2021-01-25 18:38:48 GMT from Canada)
@38: "I think there is a tad more to people's unwillingness to use foreign software than simple FUD."
To be frank: there isn't. In both cases the software is open source. If there were any malicious bits included then they could be held up as evidence. However, with no evidence, it is just pointless fear mongering.
I'd like to point out, by the way, that the same concerns you raise about deepin (due to its Chinese ties) apply just as much to American companies to people who live outside America. That's the whole problem with people pointing fingers at "foreign" software: all software is foreign and within reach of governments most of the rest of the world don't trust.
Again, it's just as silly to fear monger over SELinux or Red Hat as it is systemd or deepin or ALT. It's all just pointless hand wringing unless someone actually puts forward some evidence. The code is open and auditable so people with concerns should either put their evidence on display or admit they're just fear mongering.
40 • Newly added dists - waiting list (by barnabyh on 2021-01-25 19:02:52 GMT from Germany)
Storm OS is a poor name. We already had Storm Linux https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=storm with which it might get confused by people still remembering it (fondly).
I hope the project can come up with a different name, seeing it seems to have changed name already at least once.
41 • children vs clones (by pengxuin on 2021-01-25 19:16:31 GMT from New Zealand)
Last time I checked, apart from access to my wallet, my children are pretty much independent from me, but they are not fully independent.
The children of Debian and Ubuntu do have regular access to the "wallet" (aka repos), so yes, thanks for clarifying that they are exactly that: children, ie not grown up distros.
At least the "clones" of Red Hat are completely independent, as they have there own repos, so if Red hat goes to La-La-Land, the clones don't HAVE to follow.
If you want, you can swap La-La-Land for systemd.
42 • Why, just why? (systemd) (by Nerd Police on 2021-01-25 23:02:46 GMT from France)
You are all under arrest for being waaaaaay too geeky. (kidding)
Systemd, *face palm*. Bloat written by a corporation that has many contracts with the government (spyware trojan?), and literally bullied its way in to the Linux ecosystem, and now developers have to cater to its whims like an abusive relationship, creepy, just creepy. Third party apps should run in ANY distro, sytemd or not. I have NEVER used it (gave it a spin a few times, but then showered with steel wool afterwards), and I'm still not stupid or lame. That file erase bug, eep, glad I missed that one.
Ubuntu, I have to agree with its 'fork' (parent) designation, while I am not a huge fan, you can't deny its sheer size and influence (and its mutation away from its birth mother). I also use a fork of Debian, which begs the question, isn't Devuan more pure to the Debian ethos than systemd infested Debian itself? So wouldn't that make Devuan the TRUE parent, and Debian a prisoner of RH borg collective? I mean, it's half way to being a RH clone, repackage all those sys'd dependent .debs as .rpms, and foof, Deb Hat, lol. (watches with glee as nerd brains loop and crash at the enigmatic questions)
@3 MX Linux logo, umm, I see the resemblance to the cartoon, but I believe it's a mixture of the old Mepis logo and the 'X' from antiX. If I am wrong (because it's just a guess), please, by all means, I am not immune to correction.
Now git outta my cruiser, Ima letting you off with a warning, lol. :D
43 • Red Hat said in their CentOS announcement that they were going to... (by Scott Dowdle on 2021-01-25 23:24:47 GMT from United States)
@1 - Red Hat included in their announcement about the CentOS Linux 8 -> CentOS Stream 8 that they would be coming out with some free-to-use RHEL options after the new year. They were only following through on that.
Note also this is said to be the "first round" of free-to-use options... so expect more to happen in the not-too-distant future.
44 • Evidence (by Friar Tux on 2021-01-26 03:50:12 GMT from Canada)
@39 (Jesse) Here, here!! My sentiments exactly. Where is the evidence. It is easier to just throw about accusations than to show evidence. In fact, it appears, lately, to be a trend all over the Internet. Hopefully, most of us are intelligent enough to wait for the ever illusive evidence. Thanks, Jesse. Well written.
Oh, and @42 (Nerd Police), you're absolutely correct about the X and M in the logo, as per the MX Linux site.
45 • @25, 34 - VPN on Linux, init (by Hoos on 2021-01-26 05:09:14 GMT from Singapore)
I believe most VPN clients work with any init, but some vendors have Linux packages that only have scripts for systemd.
If you know how to add the appropriate scripts for the init you're using, you'll have no problem. Or if you're using MX, their package installer does make it easy to install some of the more well known VPN clients complete with sysV script.
But not all linux users know that and just assume their VPN doesn't work without systemd.
46 • systemD and parent distro (by Henry on 2021-01-26 07:59:57 GMT from Belgium)
I like some of the functionality that systemD offers. Especially easy access to information, and controlling processes with a few unified commands. However I try to avoid using systemD in my personal situation.
Because, one of the reasons I came to Gnu/linux is the simplicity principle(kiss). I like to know how all stuff works under the Graphical User Interface (i.o.w. command-line), and I like the simplicity of controlling/configuring stuff with config files that contains text. With SystemD, I would probably have to spend many weeks, full-time, to understand how everything is glued together. I also don't like the fact that it becomes a dependency of so many other software. Like Jesse already explained, do one thing, and do it good. And if not, or something else does it better, it can be easily replaced. If so many relies on systemD, it can no longer be easily replaced by something better. In other words, corporations now control the direction of the gnu/linux systems development.
The last years you see more development in gnu/linux that deviates from the kiss principle. Mostly because developers/corporations want to offer functionality, that gives users ease of use or complicated functionality on the surface, while giving complexity under the surface, that is too hard to understand by simple folks like me.
Luckily there is still choice. which brings me to Slackware, my favorite parent distro. Though fro the desktop I use Salix.
47 • VPN on Linux (by Koi on 2021-01-26 08:42:48 GMT from United States)
You don't need a special scripts to use VPN on Linux, or to pay for it. I use a free VPN, and that's what I am going to use in the future to write comments here. I can be of any name that way. AS I have Windows on dual boot, I can use few more online free VPNs, so my names could be 50-100, and fill this thread, arguing with each name. :)
48 • Favorite parent distro (by penguinx86 on 2021-01-26 11:09:16 GMT from United States)
My favorite parent distro is Debian. Isn't Ubuntu based on Debian? But most of the time, I use Ubuntu based Linux Mint because it has better hardware support than other distros.
49 • @48 (by Akoi on 2021-01-26 11:37:44 GMT from United States)
If a distro is based on another, then those two distros could be interchanged, but you can't do that with Debian and Ubuntu -- they have different packages, even though they are called debs.
You can make Manjaro out of Arch or another Arch based distro and vice versa with a little effort. Linux Mint is an Ubuntu clone with few additional packages, and a DE, but can be changed back.
50 • VPNs on Linux (by barnabyh on 2021-01-26 12:09:13 GMT from Canada)
If you're just using networkmanager with the openvpn plugin you won't have a problem, except perhaps having to import plenty of config files. However, NM itself is tied to a certain init.
If you are using client software your provider has given you to download it makes a difference because the service needs to start and shut down and interact with the network interfaces (in very simple terms), or why do you think a provider would be mentioning explicitly that theirs is now supporting OpenRC.
You may be lucky and your distro has done the work for you and repackaged or provides a package with said scripts like Artix does for certain software s6, runit and openrc. Even better if you have the skills to make it work yourself.
The slackbuilds site for example provides instructions on how to get the Windscribe client up and running on Slackware: https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2/network/windscribe/?search=windscribe. This wouldn 't be necessary if Windscribe 'just worked' with their chosen init.
You see, there is a lot more to it. You could also read my review of Artix.
I would really discourage using a free VPN if it's not a free plan from an otherwise reputable provider. Take some time to read up on why it is not a good idea to use a gratis VPN, unless you're just doing it for laughs.
51 • Parent distros (by Alessandro di Roma on 2021-01-26 13:16:44 GMT from Italy)
Ok, maybe Debian is not parent of Ubuntu, but it is anyway interesting to note that for DW readers Debian 36% + Ubuntu 18% = 54%
52 • Ubuntu package file type filename extension (by Ubu Roi on 2021-01-26 15:12:30 GMT from Luxembourg)
@49 You may have a point, maybe Ubuntu packages should have their own filename extension, like *.ubu? Then again, in this litigious world... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubu_Productions
Ya know, how diff is a Linux leech corporation from, let's say, a cheesy fake environment TV commercial from a notorious fossil fuel entity? Ignore me, I'm just completely jaded and cynical. There's ALWAYS a hidden agenda.
53 • Parent Distros: Void (by Nemo on 2021-01-26 16:37:30 GMT from United States)
I suppose now that Trident is based on Void (instead of FreeBSD), that qualifies Void as a parent distro. So that will be my favorite. Otherwise, I'd have said Arch.
54 • distro (by hulondalo on 2021-01-26 22:21:18 GMT from Indonesia)
i'm basically an arch user but my work horse is debian for its stability and modularity. dependencies are a moving target so they shouldn't be set in stone. i like how debian handles dependencies, for ex. if a package requires sending/receiving mails, it can be satisfied by installing exim4 or sendmail
55 • and my favorite is.. (by Dr. Dave on 2021-01-27 07:27:13 GMT from United States)
TempleOS
I know it's not based on Ganoo Linux, but with TempleOS, I simply have no use for all these glow in the dark distros
56 • Ubuntu's parent (by anon on 2021-01-28 00:47:27 GMT from United States)
@49 and @52: How in the heck is Debian NOT Ubuntu's parent!? Ubuntu literally came directly from Debian, and Mark Shuttleworth states this himself! Ubuntu is NOT an original, built from scratch distro like Debian, Arch, Redhat, Solus, etc! They may be binary incompatible now, but that is not how they started out! Ubuntu came from Debian, and has branched out to the point that they are no longer 1:1 compatible, but that does not negate the fact that Ubuntu came from Debian. It is so weird to see people try to deny this easily provable fact. It is not enough to benefit from the hard work and success of the distro that even made your distro possible to begin with? Now you must turn around and try to deny the link after using them as a base to build yourself up? It's funny and sad at the same time. I wonder if there are any Manjaro users trying to openly deny that it came from Arch, or any OEL users trying to openly deny that it came from RHEL. The least people can do is acknowledge the roots and give proper credit to the source.
57 • *buntu (by Cheker on 2021-01-28 01:30:40 GMT from Portugal)
@56 Nobody is denying Ubuntu came from Debian. The argument being made is that it followed its own path and grew apart from Debian to the point where they aren't 100% compatible anymore. Also, the undeniable amount of children it spawned, from all the *buntus to POP and Mint.
Ubuntu is both a parent distro in its own right AND comes from Debian.
58 • Not as claimed (by UncleVom on 2021-01-28 05:32:47 GMT from Canada)
I'm also one who does not look at Ubuntu as a "parent distro" it is just a mostly incompatibly forked Debian.
I also think the people still comparing Systemd to SysVinit as an init are really missing the big picture of what has become an interdependent bloated self isolating framework. It was largely sold as an init and it was even then far more, it was in retrospect a big con/selling job, a framework that now most distros now depend on. It is sad how it broke a lot of the freedom of choice that was GNU/Linux and especially Debian.
59 • @56 Ubuntu - why it should be distinguished from Debian (by Hoos on 2021-01-28 06:41:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
@56 - It is precisely because Ubuntu and Debian are not 100% compatible, that it should be made clear that Ubuntu is a parent distro and no longer really Debian-based.
If you ran Debian or actual Debian-based distros, you will know or have read of examples of users who destroyed their Debian installation because they added Ubuntu repos to their installation on the mistaken assumption that being "Debian-based", the contents of such repos would be 100% compatible with the "equivalent" Debian release.
Unfortunately, this assumption is not usually true except in some cases where the Ubuntu package happens to use libraries and dependencies with the exact same name or version as the Debian counterpart (bear in mind that each Ubuntu release is a mixture of Debian Testing, plus packages from Debian Sid and even Experimental).
You would need to be knowledgeable enough to examine the details of the Ubuntu package in question to use such repos safely, but how many who add such repos do?
60 • Debbie's Family Feud (by Who? Me? on 2021-01-28 12:15:16 GMT from Canada)
Calm down guys! How about let Debian be the grand-pappy, Ubuntu the Ubuntu the ungrateful son who decided to compete and outshine its own daddy, and all the Ubuntu progeny can be the grand-kids. Devuan on the other hand, is the shy kid who ran away for fear of The Blob, but still lives off its parent. No need for all this discord. It's all in the family.
61 • New Distros (by pfb on 2021-01-28 19:48:33 GMT from United States)
Fedora 33 just failed (xfce). And I am looking for a replacement. Fedora will not be it, as both Fedora and Opensuse have adopted a new form of grub that has become egregiously slow in booting. Plus, though they look the same, they will not recognize each other. So you cannot dual boot with them.
While searching for a new distro, I am reminded why Linux is not very popular.
1. The IMG or ISO file should be burnable to a usb by any image writer program. Special scripts that require the ISO wanted are only practical if you have a way to run the distro without burning the ISO to media. If I can do that, why burn it?
2. If you have an image that boots with a usable video driver, use it. Expecting the user to tear his computer apart to find out what he has for video card is OK for geeks, but not for the rest of us.
3. When I click on install, I want all screen savers, lockers, power management turned OFF. The slide shows do not last that long and, while I an doing something useful, I would like to look over and see how the progress bar is doing. Also the progress bar should mean something. Staying at 100% for longer than the total install very irritating.
4. Ethernet should work. Wifi is a poor substitute. Having neither is unacceptable.
5. Number lock ON! It is a keypad with numbers on it. Why would anyone toss this for a duplication of perfectly good keys that are right alongside?
6. Vi/vim really? I have not found ANY word editors that are not better. This must be like Morse code for hams. We had to use it in the olden days, so you should also?
7. Install /EFI/boot to the drive used. If I am installing on a usb as part of the computer, that stuff belongs on the usb, and not cluttering up sda.
8. Dumping the install to gparted or cfdisk is a show stopper. If I have to guess at partitions and their sizes, I will not be happy with the result.
There may be some things I have forgotten, but Linux is getting better. I remember when we had to tell the system that a CD drive was not a cup holder.
62 • Red Hat, systemd, and parent distros (by Simon on 2021-01-28 19:54:10 GMT from New Zealand)
Red Hat's extending free RHEL deployment to 16 or fewer systems is a good move that does fill some of the CentOS gap. I agree that a community distro (like the pre-Red-Hat CentOS) would be a slightly better option, both in terms of scalability and because Red Hat could indeed, as others have noted, reverse this decision at any time...but I think that's unlikely, and for now it's a great option for lots of current CentOS installations. I think it's very likely Red Hat will keep this free plan open as their main customers are big clients, not lots of small community and personal installations.
In fact, I might switch my home systems to Red Hat myself...were it not for systemd. Jesse's article was very respectful towards Lennart et al., but I think it understates how shocking that kind of irresponsibility is, and even to argue (in systemd's favour) that nobody "has dug into the source code for systemd and found an intentional problem" is questionable after just listing a bunch of serious problems that are very much by design. I guess it hangs on your definition of "malicious". If it only counts as "malice" to attempt to insert a back door so that people can damage your system covertly, then of course an open source project like systemd is very unlikely to be malicious. But, why do you need a covert back door when so much damage is being done overtly through the front door?! Given that systemd damages people's systems overtly, and very deliberately subverts well established principles of good system design, I'd call it malicious.
@59: To claim that Ubuntu is "no longer really Debian based" is simply false: from your comment that "unfortunately" you can't add Ubuntu repos to a Debian installation (!) you seem to misunderstand the meaning of parent/child distros, and to imagine that being "based" on a parent distro means being *compatible* with that distro. That's just not the case: being based on a parent means that instead of creating your distro directly from upsteam sources, you source most of your packages from another distro that has already done that (harder) work. Ubuntu is based on Debian: it tracks Debian with the vast bulk of Ubuntu coming originally from Debian packages.
@60: Ubuntu is not "ungrateful", happily acknowledging its Debian parent and passing bug fixes back to it, and Devuan is not "the shy kid who ran away for fear of The Blob". On the contrary, Devuan is the courageous part of Debian that stayed true to its founder's intentions, honouring the community's democratic decision not to switch to systemd rather than the technical committee's following Lennart's example and saying "screw the community, Windows-style is better and these UNIX idiots will come around to that truth eventually". Devuan (a) stays true to UNIX principles by avoiding systemd, and (b) stays true to democratic principles by implementing what the Debian community voted for rather than what its Lennart fans went ahead and did despite that vote. As for "lives off its parent" (which again makes it sound like some kind of worthless inferior), it's just Debian with init freedom: it never claimed to be some kind of independent distro, and deliberately stays as close t Debian as possible (maintaining, as much as possible, the kind of compatibility #59 feels a child distro should have). The only discord is around the systemd issue, and unfortunately that's justified: Debian dropped the ball on that one, both technically and democratically.
63 • @61 (by Simon on 2021-01-28 20:21:00 GMT from New Zealand)
Amen to that list: it's astounding that modern distros can't get these things right. Re vi I've had roughly the opposite experience from yours: I've never found an editor that comes close to it in terms of its speed and efficiency. Watching a vi master code is like watching magic, the text appears so quickly out of nowhere. Still, I do agree that installers designed for newbies should make other editors available, as vi has a steep learning curve, so forcing newcomers to use it is indeed unreasonable.
I have zero tolerance for some of those kinds of issues these days. Very nearly 100% of the distro's users will be using the installer, and it's everyone's "first impression" of the distro...so if the developers can't even get that right, to me it's a warning sign that the rest of operating system is likely to be annoying too. With some exceptions (e.g. scrupulously free distros that refuse to support non-free WiFi drivers...users should know what they're getting into if they install something like that) the network, graphics and basic input drivers should all be working acceptably at first login. If they aren't, I can't be bothered fiddling to make them work, as the distro's already shown it's sloppier than plenty of alternatives.
64 • @62 - "Debian-based" (by Hoos on 2021-01-29 10:00:51 GMT from Singapore)
Of course the phrase "Debian-based" is literally accurate, I don't have a problem with that.
My concern is with the impression that phrase gives to unsuspecting new Debian or Ubuntu users.
I feel that the more distance between Ubuntu and Debian there is in the public's perception, the more understanding there is that they are not binary-compatible and the less chance of newcomers just blindly adding Ubuntu repos to Debian installations.
That's why I agree that Ubuntu should also be considered a parent distro and thus I agree with the poll's categorisation.
65 • @63 Simon: (by dragonmouth on 2021-01-29 12:59:22 GMT from United States)
" I've never found an editor that comes close to it in terms of its speed and efficiency."
Vi is archaic, byzantine, esoteric and like something out of the late 1960s. It is about as intuitive as Asse3mbler. We are in the second decade of the 21 st century. It is high time for a more modern text editor. The same people that call Synaptic ancient and out of date, think Vi is the greatest thing since sliced bread and feel everybody should be using it.
I've never found a programming language that comes close to Assembler in terms of its speed and efficiency. Watching an Assembler master code is like watching magic. HOWEVER, I would never make Assembler the default programming language for ANY O/S. If anybody is feeling masochistic, they can download it after they install the O/S.
66 • Agree with 19: Mandrake should be listed (by Carney on 2021-01-29 17:26:06 GMT from United States)
I agree that Mandrake needs to be listed as a parent distro in its own right, and for the same reason that Ubuntu is despite Ubuntu being a "child" of Debian: it grew up and most importantly has its own descendants.
Especially PCLinuxOS, which is important enough to basically crash the Ubuntu / systemd - only party in any list of major distros, and basically also can by itself force the inclusion of Mandrake in any list of parent distros.
Number of Comments: 66
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