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1 • KISS (by randomly generated entity on 2020-06-08 00:42:55 GMT from United States)
The open source world has interesting ways to manifest the "keep it simple, stupid" principle. Arch, one of the more challenging distros to install for the uninitiated/unwilling to learn, uses the acronym a lot in describing its aesthetic, and now this KISS thing blows even that out of the water. The average PC user (certainly not the same as the average DW reader) would probably have a different take on what constitutes KISS (the acronym).
As a Gentoo (and Arch) user, even I'd shy away from KISS (the reviewed thing). Sounds somewhat like Void (use of musl, slimming things down in general), though that doesn't ask the user to compile everything. A worthy endeavor, but not for me, as I ask my distros to at least give me a usable desktop with which I can do everyday things without LFS levels of effort. Nutyx is about as bare bones as I'll go.
That said, I genuinely do enjoy the degree of control and fine-tuning afforded by Gentoo, and Arch to a (much) lesser extent. I've rarely, if ever, read a review that takes a look at Gentoo from a desktop user's perspective (hint hint). They do a great job with Plasma! It's a steep learning curve at first, but fairly "simple" (that word again!) to maintain once you've got things configured to your liking.
2 • KISS (by Andy Prough on 2020-06-08 02:37:59 GMT from United States)
This project sounds a lot like Linux from Scratch. I had a similar feeling like Jesse had with KISS when I was building Linux from Scratch. I was typing the commands in, because I wanted to learn them by interacting with them. But when I asked questions in the forum, I was told only to copy and paste the commands, or I would make spelling and syntax errors. If all I am doing is copying and pasting a couple thousand times, what have I learned other than copying and pasting? And why not just put it all in an installation script at that point, if I'm not expected to learn anything anyway?
3 • kiss and snake (by vern on 2020-06-08 02:44:04 GMT from United States)
After reading Distributions added to waiting list, Snakware seems lose the that KISS review. It uses python instead of sh scripts.
4 • KISS vs SliTaz Linux (by anonymous on 2020-06-08 03:05:37 GMT from United States)
KISS might be "keep it small" but it is the opposite of the "keep it simple" KISS philosophy.SliTaz Linux is a much better example that fits both criteria.
5 • KISS (by Jyrki on 2020-06-08 03:31:12 GMT from Czechia)
Arch used to be KISS distro years ago. BSD like init - everything done by rc.conf, simple yet flexible installer. Yes, one had to tune the look after that to suit his taste, something that average user wouldn't call KISS. But at that time, this was the case with all distros. And what's KISS for inexperienced users is not KISS for experts.
Looking at what's available now - I would call OpenBSD KISS
6 • KISS (by Bobbie Sellers on 2020-06-08 04:04:51 GMT from United States)
Well at least the system does not ask you to write your own kernel...
But I have things to do on my computers that do not leave time for
compiling source code and deciding how to get around the Dependency
trap.
I will tell other folks some may have time on their hands and
be more intensive hobbyists than myself.
bliss- I would not say that KISS is a good example, but if I tried to use it
it would be another stupid thing,
Ningen banji Human beings do
Samazama no Every single kind
Baka a suru Of stupid thing
--- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832
7 • non-native features (by voidpin on 2020-06-08 04:46:53 GMT from Sweden)
Voted other, simply because one can adapt. I used to run qemu vms but, at some point I've just decided to keep with what the OS offers as native. When this is not enough or, just simply because, an OS needs people to contribute, I package things and give my small contribution. This, in my mind, is what open source is about.
8 • K.I.S.S. (by Angel on 2020-06-08 06:59:19 GMT from Philippines)
Keeping it simple seems to make it overly complicated, not to say monotonous, for the end user. Matter of perspective, I suppose.
9 • KISS usability (by jan on 2020-06-08 07:24:05 GMT from Poland)
I understand the goal of building a linux distro where the user has complete control and understanding of all its features, there being no unknown hidden processes doing their job behind my back installing things, calling home, exchanging information related to my system with entities I would never allow to contact.
Could anyone answer if it is possible to build a KISS based system that can play HD movies with surround sound, use e-mail client, browse the WEB with latest Firefox, install Libre office? If affirmative, how much a non-programmer would need to spend on building such a KISS install?
Does anyone know of a KISS deployment that actually works and performs things useful to the person that set it up?
10 • access to non-native features (by Someguy on 2020-06-08 08:32:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Simple! I just switch to one of the 30+ other machines in my cohort which is just waiting for it's 'ON' switch to be pressed. Avoids any intellectual gymnastics and maintains the K.I.S.S. principle.
11 • non-native features (by Aritz on 2020-06-08 08:41:46 GMT from Spain)
Once I had an idea to make a tool that would resolve dependencies across distro repos... I mean, it's a wonderful thought, but for now I can just use Bedrock :)
12 • snakeware: nice idea but.. (by nanome on 2020-06-08 09:13:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
I was initially intrigued by snakeware because it broke the rule that X11 graphics is pervasive in distroland. Then I saw that it ran on top of qemu. There are distros, like Qubes, which use virtualization for good reason [eg security]. I hope that snakeware will grow to run on real hardware in future.
13 • kiss philosophy (by user12 on 2020-06-08 11:03:46 GMT from Spain)
Maybe this is off topic cpomment but after reading the review it has come to my mind: I've always found funny the kiss philosophy (used by arch linux and others). I would like to know what do this philosophy followers mean by "simple". From my point of view (an average linux mint user point of view) is much simpler and quicker to install a distro using Ubiquity, Calamares, Anaconda... and then install or uninstall some software according to your preferences than installing Arch (that requires to read and understand the beginner guide then, go through quite a few of steps on the console and finally install the software you want / need to use -ie KDE, Firefox, VLC, LIbreoffice...-).
For an average user is obviously much simpler and quicker installing Manjaro than installing Arch (and that is true even if the user "cheat" and install that distro by using a chroot environment from an existing Linux installation,), so if you want to "keep it simple, stupid", do not follow the kiss the philosophy.
In my (never) hunble opinion, many people install "KISS Linux distros", just as a challenge, to someday tell their grandsons they were once freak enough to install and setup a kiss linux system.
14 • KISS (by Myrtle on 2020-06-08 11:43:43 GMT from United States)
It should be MISS, not KISS. Make It Simple, Stupid. Thinking of Arch, et al of that time (including, ironically, KISS the reviewed distro).
15 • KISS (by Ram on 2020-06-08 12:01:06 GMT from India)
+
@7 ++
IMHO, a person new to computer world must go through these steps,
1. Ubuntu Desktop or Kubuntu. Get help from Ubuntu Forum & Ask Ubuntu.
Stop experimenting with operating system here if you have no time left for experiment, or proceed.
2. Install VMware Workstation Player or GNOME Box.
3. test all flavors of Ubuntu in that VM (to get acquainted with the GUIs available for GNU Linux).
4. test CentOS & fedora (to learn the security features & server setups).
5. test Debian, Devuan, Tails.
6. test Slackware (to get an idea about how things work internally).
7. test Archlinux (rich with up-to-date wiki & forum).
8. test Gentoo Linux.
9. test LFS (Linux from Scratch), BLFS.
10. test antiX, VOID, Puppy linux, Alpine linux, Tiny Core etc (to get an Idea about light-weight GNU Linux systems).
11. test Clear Linux, NixOS, Guix etc (to know different alternative concepts).
12. test FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc.
Always read the manuals available from each project. Also don't forget to search & read "man" and "info" pages specially for CLI/TUI programs.
Now, after 5 (five) years of experiment, you are in a position to decide & build the best KISS system for you. No body can give you the best system, it's only you who can make the best for you.
+
16 • opinion poll (by kore on 2020-06-08 12:49:24 GMT from Italy)
An option is missing: often if a feature is absent i compile the application from source. This happens less and less frequently today but for example in the past when CentOS distribution was missing a lot of important packages, i used to recompile them from source tar.gz or source rpm taken from fedora or elsewhere. It was amazing and i learned a lot from this.
17 • Really keeping it simple. (by Friar Tux on 2020-06-08 13:57:03 GMT from Canada)
@13 (user12) I agree 100%. KISS and Arch do not keep/make things simple. Linux Mint, in fact, most of the Ubuntu flavours and variants keep it much simpler that KISS or Arch. If Arch, for example, were really that simple, there would have been no need for Manjaro, or such. Even last weeks AutoTux isn't simple considering the mess it could cause. For me, simple is defined this way :- how easy/quick is the distro to install; how much post-install fiddling/tweaking does it take to get it to work like I need it to; how stable is it; how quickly/easily can I fix any issues that do pop up? By this definition, Linux Mint is by far much simpler than Arch, or Gentoo, or even SUSE.
18 • build from source (by greenpossum on 2020-06-08 14:41:45 GMT from Australia)
I'm with @16, why is this not an option? That's what FOSS enables.
19 • KISS Arch/KISS distro (by Myrtle on 2020-06-08 14:48:39 GMT from United States)
@17
It's up to us as to how simple or complex a distro we want. Arch is tools and we can go any way we desire with those tools. Again: Make It Simple, Stupid is our responsibility. MISS. ;)
The devs out there can say Keep It Simple, Stupid to us, but they don't have to hold our hand all the way from first burn and install to what we end up with; that's what linux is, the choice.. they're just giving us the stuff to make those choices.
20 • Meaning of KISS (by Jesse on 2020-06-08 14:56:42 GMT from Canada)
@13 and @17: Keep It Simple, in Linux circles, refers to technological simplicity, not being easy to use. A bicycle is a lot more technologically simple than a car, but it's a lot more pleasant to drive the latter across the country.
A more complete phrasing would be "keep the engineering simple" rather than "keep things easy for the end-user to work with".
21 • the poll question... (by tom joad on 2020-06-08 15:03:00 GMT from France)
Since I have been using I can't think of anything that I am missing. Well, other than the games I used to play infrequently. About the only games I play any more is chess and Majjong. Both of those are fairly well represented in Linux.
That said I can not think of anything I miss or need to hop back and forth from OS to another to complete. Me...I am happy as a clam with what I have and can readily and easily do now.
22 • Kiss my hassle (by edcoolio on 2020-06-08 15:53:07 GMT from United States)
Well, from what I read of the review, KISS sounds like a complete non-starter, unless I want to build the equivalent of a supercomputer using the bones of an Atari 400. I'm not saying no one will do it, I'm not saying it's not possible. What I am saying is: Why bother?
All of the hassle of "roll your own" with few of the rewards.
Frankly, I would (and most) would likely prefer to find a minimal LINUX distro and just simply strip out what is not needed. Much quicker and efficient.
Again, why would I or my professional technology acquaintances bother? I could just roll my own, compile everything myself, select specific packages, etc, and actually be able to have Linux when I'm done.
Complete waste of time.
23 • The meaning of KISS (by Friar Tux on 2020-06-08 19:03:37 GMT from Canada)
@20 (Jesse) I agree with you about the intended meaning KISS, however, I'll need someone to explain to me how KISS (the distro), or Arch, are 'technologically' simple. IF it were, then a noobie should have no problem installing and using it. I've played with Arch for years and I still can't figure it out. The example I used (Linux Mint) is technologically simple AND easy to use. Anyone can simple install it and use it without knowing too much about Linux - which works nicely with your car analogy - I know lots of people that can drive a car quite well from point A to point B but have absolutely no idea what to do under the hood. I have come to the conclusion that distros like KISS, or Arch, are mainly for Linux hobbyists. Anyone needing to get stuff done needs something they can install and go right to work on.
Having said all that, I still play with Arch, 'cause, dang-it, one of these days I'm gonna figure it out - and then, look out world.
24 • All about KISS (by Jesse on 2020-06-08 19:16:54 GMT from Canada)
>> " I'll need someone to explain to me how KISS (the distro), or Arch, are 'technologically' simple. IF it were, then a noobie should have no problem installing and using it. I've played with Arch for years and I still can't figure it out. The example I used (Linux Mint) is technologically simple AND easy to use."
I think you misunderstand what I mean by technologically simple. Mint is definitely not technologically simple, in fact it's about as far away from simple as one can get. One of the reasons Mint is so easy to use is because it is not at all simple under the hood.
Simple doesn't refer to how something operates from the end user's point of view, it's about how the software works behind the scenes.
Look at it this way, adding numbers is very simple. Even most young children can add 2 + 2 and get 4. Adding is a simple task. Multiplying is a more complex task, but it makes things easier for people who know how to do it. For adults it is generally easier to look at 10 X 2 and know the answer is 20. It's fast, easy (for us) and takes very little time. But to a kid that hasn't learned multiplying yet, 10 X 2 is complex and alien. The kid knows the lower level math of 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 +2 .... and can do that just fine.
KISS distros are basically trimming down complexity - using adding instead of multiplying. It means fewer types of features and libraries, it means more manual work for the user while making the tasks the software performs more simple. Simple for the computer and its software, not simple for you as the user.
25 • KISS? (by Jeff on 2020-06-08 19:35:33 GMT from United States)
KISS = Keep It Simple, Stupid?
Simple for who? The developers? Or the users?
Simple for the developers? Write up some instructions, post them on a web page, and call it a day.
Simple for the users would be more like AutoTux that was reviewed last week.
26 • Feature import (by TheTKS on 2020-06-08 20:03:26 GMT from Canada)
Voted other. Most of what I need is available in at least one of the OSs I use: Slackware, Xubuntu, OpenBSD, elementaryOS, Puppies or TinyCore (and, a few times, SuperGrub2 and refind.)
For the few things that don’t come with the OS/distro I want to use them in, I’ve used portable packages for, or in Slackware compiled from source using or modifying a Slackbuild script.
TKS
27 • also "other" && old Mac question (by (mandatory) on 2020-06-08 20:59:57 GMT from New Zealand)
I also voted Other. There are a couple of useful hold-overs from That Other OS (frames or something?), that you need Linux to drink some Wine to use. But these are rarely used and cover niche cases like translating Canon's new secret sauce CR3 to DNG - Adobe DNG Converter and also Panorama Pro as Hugin is really really hard to use. Hugin has great power, but the UI has great complexity and I prefer to click and be done.
Asking for a friend (for real). Theyt have an old, circa 2011 Mac. Its an i3 4GB all-in-one type, I think some kind of Radeon graphics card. Anything to be careful of with installing Linux? I did a test boot and the keyboard kept dying and the display shearing and breaking up. That was a live disc boot with MATE DE. So are there any special gloves or preparation steps?
28 • Survey (by DifferentJeff on 2020-06-08 21:03:33 GMT from United States)
I voted Other. I have individual hardware, cheap desktops, running different operating systems: Ubuntu, CentOS, and Windows10.
29 • Kiss review (by vern on 2020-06-08 21:16:59 GMT from United States)
It appears some commenters are getting hung up on the KISS acronym, instead of Jesse's review of the KISS project.
This project might in fact appeal to someone out there. I did to the authors of KISS itself.
I'm glad to see him review an "Off Broadway" show. Not the same-O, same-O. It was an interesting review. Not for me, but still a great review.
30 • KISS and Snakeware (by anon on 2020-06-08 21:26:37 GMT from United States)
Too many people mistaking the word "simple" for "easy". Simple in this sense means free of bloat and clutter, and "keep it simple" in this sense refers to building a system with only the absolute bare minimum that a user would need. It's great for power users like myself who enjoy building their own custom solutions without having to rely too much on a third party to get what they want. However, for joe or jane normal who just wants a ready made solution that works out of the box, it is a non-starter. KISS is interesting, but doesn't Slackware, Arch, Void, Gentoo, the BSD's, and Illumos already scratch this itch? Maybe even LFS? I guess that it is nice to have another build-your-own-OS option to choose from.
Now, Snakeware is something that I find genuinely intriguing because it is doing something new. I downloaded it and burned it to a USB stick, and it ran decently. So I'll definitely keep an eye on it. It has potential, and hope that it continues to grow.
31 • @20, Meaning of KISS. (by El Gato Felix on 2020-06-08 23:55:55 GMT from Spain)
"A bicycle is a lot more technologically simple than a car" Understood, except that from your review, KISS is more like a sketch plan with directions to build your own bicycle.
32 • KISS & Such (by M.Z. on 2020-06-09 00:06:57 GMT from United States)
As others have pointed out in different ways, mechanically simple would be a motor bike with one cylinder, a manual kick starter, an a manual transmission with as few gears as possible. Somewhat akin to the "KISS" Distros being discussed. End user simplicity & friendliness would include a battery, automatic starter, more cylinders to smooth the firing of the power stroke(s) across the revolutions of the crank, an enclosed car cabin to keep out the elements, all the add-ons to run an AC & heater, plenty of automatic gears, and so on. Much more like Linux Mint & not at all simple if you go digging around at the mechanical elements under the surface.
@27
"...and the display shearing and breaking up. ... So are there any special gloves or preparation steps?"
The best trick I've found to overcome hardware issues on Linux is to try out at least a couple of not too closely related Distros in live mode & install whatever seems to work the best. For me that usually means trying Mint Debian (Cinnamon) & Mageia with KDE (or possibly PCLinuxOS), but you can try whatever you like & a possible plan B. As long as they are not both based on say Ubuntu or both based on Debian to use two common examples - then you should have a better chance of getting everything going smoothly. I like trying one Deb based distro & one RPM based distro as a simple catch all to guarantee something different from both tries. That's helped me out a few times with hardware issues anyway & is certainly worth a try if you had issues with one live disc. Different desktops with different window managers, like KDE/Kwin & Cinnamon/Muffin, can also have a significant impact in my recollection so it's also worth trying a different DE - & having both a different DE & a different Distro base in your plan b can speed up testing things. If you want you can usually install the DE that failed on option A & log in later to see if that was part of the issue or not.
33 • kiss and cars (by buster on 2020-06-09 02:44:00 GMT from Canada)
I think the idea behind KISS is great. In fact, the next time I buy a car, I'm not going to get an assembled one, but I'll have all the parts sent in a box, and then spend the next year putting it together!.
34 • portable, similar enough, easy, fast (by mmphosis on 2020-06-09 03:22:46 GMT from Canada)
• Portable:
./configure, make, gcc, bash, ...
The X Window System
gnu, busybox
kernel: Linux, BSD
video/sound players: VLC, ffmpeg
Web browsers/engines: Firefox, Chromium, webkit
Multi-user video chat: not a fan of it but, Zoom
(jitsi is good enough)
• Similar enough:
File: thunar, nemo, etc ... (they are so similar, I had to look at the About window to see what filer this distro comes with.)
Text Edit: MouseText, xed, etc ...
• Easy: installing Ubuntu
• Fast: nice to see small viewable shell scripts, but don't forget optimized for speed binaries!
35 • Mint snapd (by vern on 2020-06-09 03:50:11 GMT from United States)
Glad to see in the notes, that Mint OS is removing snapd!
I might have to use that OS if Ubuntu forces it on me in the end. Right now "sudo apt purge snapd", removes it.
If and when "systemd /home" is a forced upon me, then another decision will need to be made.
36 • acronym (by Igor on 2020-06-09 10:46:02 GMT from Croatia)
Minors seem to be delighted by expletives all over the world. When I encountered the acronym for the first time it read "Keep it Short and Simple". Of course, besides being short and simple it also has to be working. But this third (actually, the first) requirement makes it all hard to achieve, the true art. Yet, once it is made short, simple and working, it is probably going to work well.
Here, short means the system devoid of anything that is not absolutely necessary. Starting from there it is easier to deal with simplicity. Now, the simplicity in software and particularly system design is an elusive term, akin to the elegance in mathematics. Put more simply and therefore less accurate, it is coding and design done the right way. No dirty tricks, no code, modules, components or libraries that are just working though you don't really know what they actually do (most of them overkill), no frameworks, no quick solutions, no compromises. No system assembling.
The ambition to design a working and useful system out of code that is mathematically proved correct is the Holy Grail of the software engineering. Building OS by correct coding, like what the OpenBSD is up to, is in itself a noble cause that doesn't need any additional justification, even if it has not resulted in such a stable and dependable product as it actually has. Unfortunately in the end it is always dipped in the reality of consumer's hardware and the mess and junk of its firmware and drivers.
A short and simple system is understandably not very easy to install and set up, but this pays with low maintenance requirements. Also, it can not meet everyone's expectations regarding the way it is used. Such a system is certainly not for everyone, but then, nothing is for everyone, so, bottom line, it is good to have something for everyone, and that precisely is the why of Distrowatch.
There comes the minor again, angry because they are discussing something that is beyond his patience, not good for him. Come on, sweetheart, these guys are interesting in some other things, be patient for a while, your turn is about to come again, maybe as soon as next Monday.
37 • KISS, and kits (by TheTKS on 2020-06-09 11:52:55 GMT from Canada)
To keep going with the car analogy...
Some people want a fully loaded Mercedes and some others a Toyota Yaris, but either way as little fuss as possible, just turn it on, go somewhere, listen to some music, turn it off, with automatic transmission and preferably press a button for starting and shutting off rather than turn a key.
Some want a manual transmission, do their own maintenance and repairs, maybe install their own sound system.
Then you have kit cars. “ A kit car is an automobile that is available as a set of parts that a manufacturer sells and the buyer then assembles into a functioning car. Usually, many of the major mechanical systems such as the engine and transmission are sourced from donor vehicles or purchased new from other vendors. Kits vary in completeness, consisting of as little as a book of plans, or as much as a complete set with all components to assemble into a fully operational vehicle such as those from Caterham.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_car
I have one each of the first two (not a Mercedes, though.) I don’t want to build a kit car, but I still like to read about them from time to time. I even got to ride in one once (that somebody else built.) What a blast!
Likewise, I’m curious what OSs outside the mainstream are doing. I’m not going to “build” from a “KISS” or LFS, but I would take one for spin if I knew someone who did - and not get hung up on the terminology.
TKS
38 • And... the light bulb goes on. (by Friar Tux on 2020-06-09 13:38:50 GMT from Canada)
@24, 30, 32, 36, 37... Ah yes. I see what you're saying. I spent most of my working career making things 'simple' for the AVERAGE person. It seems to have created a blind spot.
Diversity is one of the things I love about Linux. There's something for everyone, and if there isn't you can build it. While I don't have the know-how or time to do it myself, I would love to see an OS built on artificial intelligence. THAT won't be a kissy project. I love what the Mycroft project is doing, but would love to see that turned into an OS (not simply (ha ha) an added virtual assistant).
39 • KISS = Peak Absurdity (by CS on 2020-06-09 14:55:32 GMT from United States)
A package manager written in shell, marketed as a feature rather than a dead end. Looks like a hobbyist distro with a target market of roughly 1 user. Hard pass from me.
40 • Missing features (by Cheker on 2020-06-10 11:59:20 GMT from Portugal)
I voted other because I've used at one point or another more than one method. It depends on what exactly I want - I've dual booted (still do, mostly between ThatRedmondCompanyOS and Linux, but sometimes also between two Linuxes), I've installed portable packages (one of my daily drivers only has Firefox ESR in its official repos so I went and grabbed the latest Firefox's flatpak), and I've also used VM's in...damn near all of my OS, mostly to experiment but sometimes to use something from one of the others.
41 • Linux Mint -snaps (by Lurker on 2020-06-11 11:03:15 GMT from Philippines)
As a Mint user, I'm so relieved to see this news. Ever since the betas for Ubuntu 20.04 started to be talked about, I'd become very alarmed at the findings of reviewers that they'll install and use snaps *without the user's consent*, even when said user specifically used the apt command. Ubuntu doing this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and it worried me that LM might follow the same path, since it has Ubuntu as a base.
I mean, come on, if I wanted a snap package, I'd use the snapd command. But since I'm using the apt command, it means I told my system to get me Debian packages. It's just deceitful to make the apt command lead to the snap package anyway.
I run old, low end hardware with pitiful amounts of storage. Snaps never work right for me, and I'll never use them unless they became truly optimized for anything less than the latest and most expensive workstations. I can say at this point, Mint having the reputation of "Ubuntu done right" rings the most true for me. Kudos to them for getting rid of the sneaky snap implementation Ubuntu has forced upon its users.
42 • @12 snakeware (by pepa65 on 2020-06-12 04:43:18 GMT from Thailand)
I think snakeware also runs on real hardware, but it writes directly to the framebuffer device, and doesn't use X.
43 • Snaps (by James on 2020-06-12 10:04:10 GMT from United States)
@41
Another option is Ubuntu Mate (for now). The only snap package is the welcome screen, which is easily removed. I use Synaptic to install software and apt-commands and have no other snaps. I agree, I do not want snap packages.
44 • Without snaps (by OstroL on 2020-06-12 10:56:19 GMT from Poland)
Well, there are some Ubuntu based distros that doesn't ship with snaps. Linux Mint, Olu Unity, Pop OS!, Zorin for example.
45 • Snaps, with or without (by Angel on 2020-06-12 11:23:46 GMT from Philippines)
I'm on Kubuntu right now, and it doesn't have snaps installed at all. The problem, however, is that should I want to install Chromium, it will pull in Snapd and all the other unwanted goodies. This also applies to other distros using Ubuntu's repos. Linux Mint wants to go further, keeping apt from pulling in snaps when you invoke "apt install". But they still have a problem. Unless they will provide their own repos offering .deb versions of Ubuntu snaps, all they can do is give you directions to get them someplace else.
I have nothing against snaps per se, other than they are slow. But if the original idea was to have universal installers, it is a Rube Goldberish way to go about it. Also, rather than being universal, they seem to be becoming more of an Ubuntu captive package. I've run Ubuntu and it's spawned distros for many years, but the door's always open and I'm quite willing to go somewhere else.
46 • oh snap (by fonz on 2020-06-12 13:46:20 GMT from Indonesia)
sooner down the road, i get the feeling mint might definitely switch over to their lmde as their main distro. wonder how long til other distros based on ubuntu might take the same road -_-
article
ive also tried doing an lfs path, its just way too hard for me. while i do agree in kiss, i believe most mainstream distros are the much better path unless youre a hobbyist and want to see how a system is put together. ive only used lfs for around a week since i felt even gentoo was simpler...
47 • @45 Chromium.. (by OstroL on 2020-06-12 14:16:05 GMT from Poland)
If you need to get Chromium in Kubuntu, you can do that by downloading the latest Chromium deb package from Pop OS repos at Launchpad. Version 80.0.3987.149.
You can also get it from the Chromium developers, https://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/download-chromium
You don't need snaps to have a up to date application.
48 • What's wrong with Linux Mint? (by MK on 2020-06-12 14:44:04 GMT from Israel)
The latest riot is about Ubuntu's snap packages shipped by default. What a terrible crime! As if it is a great secret Ubuntu has snaps. As if the decision to snap Chromium has not been explained on Ubuntu blog, Ubuntu podcast, AskUbuntu, and in the release notes of 19.10, let alone a handful of tech blogs.
What rubs me the wrong way even more is that this latest nonsense is part of a continuous trend. First, Linux Mint bragged about shipping codecs by default, then about the lack of kernel updates, then about Cinnamon being the best thing since sliced bread, and now this.
I mean, seriously, why the antagonism? Do they have to trash the parent distro to feel good?
Are those just sloppy attempts to differentiate? Please, enlighten me. :~)
49 • kiss/systemd etc (by Myrtle on 2020-06-12 15:08:43 GMT from United States)
I've noticed now that Devuan solves a lot of the issues mentioned this week. Choice of int plus it is quite the basic "just works" version of Debian.. not bleeding edge, of course.
(one thing: if you run pulseaudio you'll notice that the command in the app startup list is wrong; change it to pulseaudio --start and that's that)
50 • @47 Chromium, etc. (by Angel on 2020-06-12 15:56:28 GMT from Philippines)
Been there. Done that. Can be done by adding Debian repos also, although that's a bit more complex. Note that when adding other distros repos, apt preferences should be set to avoid conflicts. Otherwise you may regret it. The Chromium dev is not upgradable and is missing Google APIs, so features such as sync, translate and maps will be missing or crippled.
I try these workarounds just to test them. I'm fine using Chrome and avoiding the hassle.
.
51 • @48 Mint (by randomly generated entity on 2020-06-12 16:41:56 GMT from United States)
There's nothing wrong with Mint, as far as I can see. It was my first full-time Linux distro, the one that led me to finally get rid of Windows for good. This after having dabbled with early SUSE and Red Hat (pre-Fedora), then Ubuntu when it came along.
Snaps just plain aren't very popular, at least with a rather vocal sector of the Linux market, and I agree with those folks. They solve a problem that doesn't exist (at least for me), are slower to load, and eat up more bandwidth than necessary - not to mention the proprietary nature of the snap infrastructure.
Mint has chosen to highlight the fact that they'll opt not to embrace snap, in fact to actively exclude it, and I think that's a good idea. The Mint user is likely to be a new Linux convert, and why subject that demographic to programs that take longer than necessary to load? It wouldn't make a very good impression.
In other Mint vs. Ubuntu opinions, I'm on board with them on your other points as well, especially Cinnamon vs. Gnome. Mint has done a great service to the Linux world with their contributions to Cinnamon and MATE! Gnome was/is not a comfortable environment for the new Linux user. Mint made the UI much much friendlier for their target audience.
I'd turn your question back at you: why the Mint bashing?
52 • Mint (by M.Z. on 2020-06-13 02:41:00 GMT from United States)
@48
"...this latest nonsense is part of a continuous trend. First, Linux Mint bragged about shipping codecs by default, then about the lack of kernel updates, then about Cinnamon being the best thing since sliced bread, and now this."
Having been a long time Mint user & watcher, I can say that I personally think that Mint has if anything been overly nice to their upstream distro, even when Canonical was clearly taking advantage of their users (e.g. I found the Unity 'shopping lens'/spyware fiasco offensive & felt Clem was Very soft on the issue). I don't know why Clem started to show enough spine to annoy Ubuntu fans over Snaps rather than the previous spyware issue which I felt was a far more serious issue; however, given the relative antagonism I've heard coming from some in Canonical, the latest statement from Clem is minor. I think there was a lot more antagonism over the previous 'make upgrades extra careful for most users' policy that Mint had before they began integrating backup mechanisms & some of the accusations from those in Canonical, about browser updates specifically, were completely unwarranted & downright false.
On what Canonical is doing right now, frankly the way that previous normal command line behavior is being redirected seems like a bad idea to me. Admittedly the vast majority of command line users are likely to figure out what is going on & decided how they feel about the behavior for themselves, but it still strikes me as a bad move. The issues are all basically for the reasons Clem stated about package size, relatively closed format, etc. Being more open and transparent is generally considered a good thing, especially in FOSS/Linux circles. Being honest & direct about your shift away from totally FOSS software formats may be transparent, but it is not 'Open as in FOSS software'. Perhaps Clem could tip toe around the issues so as not to offend any delicate sensibilities. On the other hand firmer constructive criticism might encourage a better attitude & frankly I didn't like Clem fawning over Ubuntu during the Unity shopping thing. Yes he has been Very pro-Ubuntu in the past, so acting like he's always been hostile seems is a completely false narrative & misses much of what Clem has said in the past, such as a strong 'when Ubuntu does well we do well' attitude.
As for your apparent annoyance over simple differentiation, if they weren't doing something different from Ubuntu what would be the point of their project existing at all? I think Cinnamon is the best GTK DE available & if they didn't like what they were doing why would they make the whole new DE from all those Gnome bits? It's a whole lot of effort & if they are proud of what they built & want to praise it, so freaking what? I thought talking up any good thing you had done was generally expected over much of the world, & acting like they did something wrong in promoting Cinnamon just feels really silly to me.
Anyway, I've got noting against Snaps as an option, but I sure like the openness & FOSS like nature of flatpaks more than Snaps. I think many of us who are in the Linux camp, but not necessarily the Ubuntu camp feel the same way. While I don't like how locked down Snaps appear to be, Canonical apparently crafts a very fine Debian based Distro that many like Mint base their projects on & I hope they do well. I would however hope that they take both privacy & openness as in FOSS into greater account in the future.
53 • On conceirns about snaps. (by MK on 2020-06-13 12:11:57 GMT from Israel)
Ubuntu is free to use an modify as you see fit. Many haters talk or write as if that's not the case, I am not sure why. Perhaps they do not know what 'free software' means, or perhaps they are just that - haters that come to hate no matter what.
I don't really care about an average disgruntled Joe venting frustration, but when Monsieur Lefebre does it, regularly, it is unprecedented.
One way to deal with it is to adopt a code of conduct. After all, even kernel devs now have one, and Linus himself pledged to abide. Another way is to cut the umbilical cord, and focus on LMDE.
The point is: Don't like snaps, or Ubuntu, fine, don't use them, just don't be an a-hole about it.
54 • @53 On conceirns about snaps. (by Mentokin on 2020-06-14 00:20:51 GMT from Spain)
"In the Ubuntu 20.04 package base, the Chromium package is indeed empty and acting, without your consent, as a backdoor by connecting your computer to the Ubuntu Store. Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can't audit them, hold them, modify them, or even point Snap to a different store. You've as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it installs itself without asking you."
Of the preceding paragraph, please show that which is not true, and that which is spewing hate at Ubuntu.
Against snaps? Snaps can be, and will be installable in Mint, only they will require the user to do so knowingly.
55 • Mint (by M.Z. on 2020-06-14 03:59:58 GMT from United States)
@53
"Ubuntu is free to use an modify as you see fit."
The base OS most certainly is, just as in the upstream Debian project Ubuntu is based on, but the point is that the hot new default package format is among the most locked down in all of Linux. I honestly couldn't say from a technical standpoint if there are any advantages to Snap over Flatpak; however, Snap remains tied to Ubuntu/Canonical servers. It is this locking to Ubuntu/Canonical that is at issue, as folks from both Red Hat & Mint have pointed out. I doubt that both Adam Williamson of Red Hat & Clem both missed the openness of the format. On the other hand if you can figure out how to redirect Snaps to work with other sources as easily as Flatpaks, then tell us how. It looks to me like the reality is that Canonical controls Snaps far more than anyone controls .deb, .rpm, or Flatpak.
56 • Snaps, @53 (by R. G. on 2020-06-14 09:49:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Ubuntu is free to use an modify as you see fit." That is precisely what Clem Lefevre is doing, and giving his reasons for what he did and why. What is wrong with that?
Number of Comments: 56
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