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1 • Xfce (by must on 2019-10-28 00:31:34 GMT from France)
Nice review of Xubuntu Xfce.
Hope to see soon the Fedora Silverblue Review
2 • Xubuntu 18.10 (by Carlos Felipe on 2019-10-28 00:38:44 GMT from Brazil)
"I have some mixed feelings about Snap packages being enabled by default and seamlessly integrated with GNOME Software. For people who like to use Snaps and want quick access to them, this is great. If you prefer to use classic Deb packages over Snaps then the new approach may cause you to accidentally download the larger, portable package. I am fairly neutral on Snap, but I do prefer to install the smaller Deb package if it is available and GNOME Software does not seem to give preference to one over the other."
You took the words out of my mouth.
3 • This weeks edition (by EarlyBird on 2019-10-28 01:22:20 GMT from Canada)
While the review of Xubuntu featuring Xfce 4.12 and support for ZFS on root was certainly the main item of interest this week, also really appreciated the nice clear explanation about the workings of init and service managers.
Wonder if anyone has links to a tutorial, or maybe a presentation with complete visual layout of each of these systems with side-by-side comparison charts including typical scripts used in each system.
While on that topic, couple of files about init systems from the busybox site that were interesting:
init_vs_runsv.html
kill_it_with_fire.txt
4 • ZFS / Xubuntu (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-10-28 02:47:12 GMT from Brazil)
I have no plans to switch from ext4, at least on my legacy HDD, since performance is still the best on ext4 comparing to any other filesystem. Btrfs on LUKS was one of the worst things I ever did to my desktop.
Xubuntu has been unbeatable for me. Unfortunately, the latest Xfwm4 has an annoying bug that causes it to slowdown in a few days of use. It seems the problem is fixed on Git, I've compiled it and I'm currently testing.
5 • Xubuntu - no 32bit install options (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 03:59:32 GMT from United States)
From the review: "Now back to Xubuntu 19.10. The distribution is available for 64-bit (x86) machines exclusively."
I think that's just awful, just a truly horrible decision. The whole point of XFCE has been to provide a fairly lightweight desktop that can run well, even on older hardware.
Good thing MX and antiX havn't given up on the parts of humanity that the Ubuntu project no longer seems to care to connect to.
6 • @5 (by Jason Hsu on 2019-10-28 04:43:26 GMT from United States)
@5, Xubuntu dropped 32-bit support because Ubuntu did. I can't blame the Ubuntu team for dropping 32-bit support. Those old PCs that lack 64-bit support are over 10 years old and too slow for Ubuntu's high overhead. There's no point in supporting PCs that are too slow for Ubuntu-based distros.
It makes sense for MX Linux, antiX Linux, and other lightweight distros to still support 32-bit-only PCs. A significant percentage of the user base uses such old and slow PCs, and Debian still supports 32-bit systems. I believe that Debian will support 32-bit hardware for at least another decade. 10 years from now, 32-bit-only hardware will seem as old as Windows 95 era PCs seem now. (And how many people still use such old computers?)
7 • @6 - Ubuntu/Xubuntu 32-bit support (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 05:26:41 GMT from United States)
Here's a statement about Xubuntu's "target audience" from their original 2009 "Strategy Document" - "Xubuntu does not exclusively target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum with a strong focus on enabling lower end machines. Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users regardless of their hardware."
The document noted that the "profile" for an Xubuntu user would include those with as little as 192mb of RAM - allowing them to browse the web, play music, and edit documents.
To say that throwing away x86 support isn't an abdication of the project's original goals is to simply ignore the project's own history.
8 • Chromium & Snap (by Lupus on 2019-10-28 05:31:13 GMT from Germany)
If you want to install Chromium via apt it installs the Snap package using a transitional package. Why on earth can't they put through the Debian Chromium which might be a few versions behind???
9 • Using ZFS (by RJules3 on 2019-10-28 05:39:41 GMT from Germany)
The better is the enemy of the good. ZFS is a so much better file system it caused me to stick with Project Trident. The developers there offered a simple graphical user environment to utilize ZFS. One of my most favoured abilities of ZFS are boot environments. They are a well working tool to roll back your system to a working condition, if something went wrong with an installation, update, upgrade, or whatever. During this process you don't loose any data at all. With ZFS it is easy to set up a mirror of hard disks, giving you the opportunity to work incessantly during the failure of a hard disk. From my point of view it would be a kind of regression to turn back to any different file system.
10 • Xubuntu (by Manos on 2019-10-28 06:23:42 GMT from Greece)
One serious issue about Xubuntu is the black screen which appears after hibernation, instead of login screen and I haven't yet come across a workaround!
11 • I highly recommend it for almost any desktop scenario (by OstroL on 2019-10-28 06:35:42 GMT from Poland)
"I highly recommend it for almost any desktop scenario"
Its been a long time to see this line in a distro review! I am really glad to see that, as it tells us that there are still really good distros. It was also nice that Jessie didn't review Ubuntu for it is buggy at installation and at work.
Having had a look at snaps for sometime, it'd be best to uninstall the few default snaps that comes with the iso. They are much slower than the standard deb apps. I do hope that the Xubuntu devs had placed a disclaimer on those snap apps, so the user would know which ones are they. Why slow down a really fast distro unnecessarily?
I suspect that the volume of Ubuntu (Gnome) downloads are much less than in previous releases. After all, earlier Ubuntu-Gnome was the most unpopular flavour those days.
12 • Xubuntu (by Romane on 2019-10-28 06:47:54 GMT from Australia)
It was with interest I read todays review of Xubuntu.
Let me put some things in context from my perspective. I do not, nor have I ever liked, Ubuntu, and generally avoid it and anything to do with it as though it has the plague. Nothing to do with whether it is a good system or not. I simply do not like it. I have been running straight Debian (Testing) for a lot of years, and very happy.
But I was interested in this update to Xubuntu. XFCE has been my desktop-of-choice for quite some time, and the update from 4.12 to 4.14 overcame my dislike of Ubuntu sufficiently to download and test it.
Xubuntu impressed me. Very strongly impressed me. My impression coincides with those of Jesse in his review.
I appreciated the sane defaults that came with Xubuntu in the install. I appreciate the sane selection of working packages.
But... Snap, while it may be OK for many packages, is useless with the one application I consider essential to my daily grind - it fails to run properly. Very quickly I swapped out Snap for Flatpak, which version of this package runs perfectly.
Yet here again, Xubuntu impressed me. Once I had made the necessary changes to my system, removing snap and installing flatpak, the software management automatically updated to include flatpak as seamlessly as it had with snap before.
I even used the Xubuntu system (yes, I had installed to my rust-disk, as testing for my very old laptop, among other things) for a whole day, and can honestly same that Xubuntu is the one Distribution which, If I am to swap from Debian Testing, would be my choice. I don't care that not long term support - that side of "things" has never interested me.
It is good to see sensible developers doing sensible things.
13 • Lower End (by whoKnows on 2019-10-28 06:51:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
@7
"lower end machines" != "ancient junk"
Isn't something like Lenovo T61p (2008) a very, very low end nowadays?
It had 64-bit support already.
Isn't a brand new Celeron/Pentuim notebok (300 ~ 500 $} with 4 GB a lowest low end machine nowadys, even if it came on the market this year?
Does anybody really needs a Laptop/PC which is slower and less powerfull than a smartphone?
14 • Xubuntu/32-bits support (by Frederic on 2019-10-28 07:51:04 GMT from United States)
1. Good review of Xubuntu. Xubuntu really is a stable and boring distro, it just works. For sure one of my favorit distros.
2. @7: The computing world changes, project's original goals change, 32-bit machine are dying out, Ubuntu,Fedora etc. do not support 32-bits systems anymore, and for very good reasons I think. But if you have a 32-bits system, Debian is your friend.
15 • No.6 & 32bit (by Smurf on 2019-10-28 08:23:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
"...how many people still use such old computers?" Many, many folks across the globe who are not in the USA! Nuff said.
16 • @7 (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-10-28 08:39:10 GMT from Brazil)
Xubuntu simply has not the resources to maintain all 32 bits packages by themselves.
17 • ZFS for root (by Alexandru on 2019-10-28 08:43:32 GMT from Romania)
I used ZFS for root filesystem on Solaris / OpenIndiana and then for FreeBSD. Unfortunately, I just followed defaults for it and didn't use any of very velcome advanced filesystem management tools ZFS has to offer.
I can't manage to install OpenIndiana with FreeBSD as dual boot on the same disk, both using ZFS for their root, because the disk cannot use 2 ZFS partitions, both containing root fs (as soon as the second OS gets installed on separate ZFS volume, the first ceases to boot). Probably more in line of ZFS philosophy would be to use the same ZFS volume for both OpenIndiana and FreeBSD with separate subvolumes, but I never make it done. If somebody knows how to deal with ZFS multiboot on the same disk, please let me know in comments. Thank you.
18 • 32-bit (by Jo on 2019-10-28 09:54:42 GMT from United States)
@15 Sure. But how much percent worldwide and for how long?
19 • snap and his depencies (by denk_mal on 2019-10-28 11:16:30 GMT from Germany)
I don't like snap (to fat and ugly for me) so I took at first a look on the depencies and - surprise, surprise - the pulseaudio daemon need the libsnapd daemon.
Does anybody knows a common replacement for pulseaudio?
20 • Ubuntu Xfce 19.10 (by Rick on 2019-10-28 11:36:19 GMT from United States)
The last version of Ubuntu Xfce I tried to install (18.04) failed completely. Mint Xfce or MX Linux is a much better choice. Ubuntu's glory days are L-O-N-G gone!
21 • Pulseaudio (by Jo on 2019-10-28 11:37:03 GMT from United States)
Sure. Try ALSA (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture). Its very good and, in my opinion, better than PulseAudio.
22 • 32-bit Support Xubuntu (by Guido on 2019-10-28 11:56:19 GMT from Philippines)
If you need 32 bit support for your hardware, I can only recommend switching to MX Linux, which is based on Debian Buster. A very good substitute for Xubuntu!
23 • Xubuntu (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-28 12:18:22 GMT from Canada)
Nice review.
I have used ZFS with Solaris while ago.
24 • Not revelent (by Garon on 2019-10-28 12:41:41 GMT from United States)
@20, This review was for 19.10 Rick. This has nothing to do with 18.04. so why even bring it up?
25 • Desperate with Xubuntu 19.10 (by Xubuntu Eoan Ermine on 2019-10-28 13:05:47 GMT from Singapore)
I was experiencing something better from Xubuntu 19.10, as it is the first Xubuntu release with Xfce 4.14.
I was even planning to migrate from current Linux Mint Xfce Edition if the experience was good enough.
Unfortunately, Xubuntu Eoan failed to make a positive impression for me.
Let's wait for the upcoming LTS release.
26 • ZFS (by Stan on 2019-10-28 13:29:54 GMT from United States)
I do not have ZFS on root and will not use it on root. I have a ZFS pool on 3 hard disks and I have Devuan 2.0.0 on disk # 1. I can replace or reinstall the operating system and import my zpool afterwards with no problems so I really don't see the advantage to having ZFS on root. I have had my zpool ever sense Jessie was released in Debian. I have had no problem with it. I have never used snapshots because the operating system is on a different drive. If I have a problem with the OS I just need to reinstall it and import the zpool. Very simple.
27 • @6 - How are we interpreting "lower end" hardware? (by Mr. Ware on 2019-10-28 14:25:48 GMT from United States)
Lower end hardware could mean a Walmart Acer with 4mb of RAM, with an old core-duo processor. but still being 64-bit. Curious though how they carefully chose their words. Lower end may still exclude 32-bit perhaps.
28 • @7 - How are we interpreting "lower end" hardware? (by Mr. Ware on 2019-10-28 14:32:09 GMT from United States)
@6 - please disregard...
Lower end hardware could mean a Walmart Acer with 4mb of RAM, with an old core-duo processor but still being 64-bit. Curious though how they carefully chose their words. Lower end may still exclude 32-bit perhaps.
29 • Xfce 4.14 (by TheTKS on 2019-10-28 15:04:41 GMT from Canada)
@10 “ One serious issue about Xubuntu is the black screen which appears after hibernation, instead of login screen and I haven't yet come across a workaround!”
You might want to try changing vblank options or disabling the compositor, if it’s an Xfce and not an Ubuntu problem.
For vblank, read the Xfce compositor manager notes (available online.) To turn off the compositor, go to Settings - Window Manager Tweaks - last tab, click off compositor (or similar steps - not at my computer with Xfce right now.)
With Xfce 4.14 on OpenBSD 6.6, I got both many screen freezes and blank screens a few times (which might just be a particular type of screen freeze) before figuring out that turning off the compositor fixed the problem for me and now it is working well, aside from a Catfish problem. Changing vblank options didn’t fix the problem for me. I found that other people have fixed screen freezes by turning off hardware acceleration in their xorg conf files, which also didn’t work for me.
Xubuntu 18.04 just works for me for what I need it to do. I’m not moving from LTS - I’ll wait for 20.04. I do hope they make it clearer and easier to manage deb vs snap versions of packages.
TKS
30 • @16 - Xubuntu - 32bit (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 15:12:46 GMT from United States)
> "Xubuntu simply has not the resources to maintain all 32 bits packages by themselves."
Fortunately they don't have to do it all by themselves since they are downstream from Debian, and Debian already maintains all the 32 bit packages.
31 • my recommended GNU Linux distro for a new commer, as of 2019 (by Ram on 2019-10-28 15:54:27 GMT from India)
The award goes to Ubuntu Studio 19.10 :)
Based on Xubuntu, includes all necessary apps a present day desktop/workstation user would need. Works out-of-box, stable, reliable, fast.
One thing I don't get clear, why the Ubuntu Studio & AV Linux use XFCE instead of Mate...!! Recently Mate has done a good improvement, looking for the 20.04 version of the Ubuntu Mate... :)
32 • RE:Clarify Init/Service Managers (by 2damncomon on 2019-10-28 18:30:04 GMT from United States)
Thank you for the article.
I like that you keep articles about this topic "non political".
I'd also like to say thanks for your work on SysV.
33 • xbuntu and older machines (by Gary on 2019-10-28 18:38:39 GMT from United States)
I have used a number of distros that use the Xfce desktop.Most of these are customized for the particular distro. My only real problem with any of them has been the slowdown of booting into or sluggishness of the system after a short time of use.
I fix/repair older desktop machines for family, friends. and neighbors. Now I find I get many more 64 bit systems than I used to. With the slower processor machines, Xfce and LXDE-QT desktops work best. For faster machines with more memory, the KDE desktop gives the end user more 'eye candy' they want. The Cinnamon desktop is usually the next most requested desktop they request. (I show an example of each desktop to the owner/user of the machine and let them choose)
IS there a work around or a distro that has the slowdown of XFCE fixed? I have used the Peach OSI distro for about a year and that annoying slow down is my only complaint with it.
34 • Mintstick doesn't work on Xubuntu (by Jeff TIncher on 2019-10-28 18:49:17 GMT from United States)
Mintstick doesn't work on Xubuntu
35 • @33 - XFCE slowdown (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 19:42:47 GMT from United States)
I've used XFCE on antiX for a couple months, and moved to XFCE on MX this past week and have not noticed any slowdown. One person said it happened on Xubuntu after a few days of use - do you know how long a period to wait to see it, and what are the main symptoms to look for?
36 • Xubuntu (by vern on 2019-10-28 19:47:30 GMT from United States)
My Xubuntu doesn't slow down at all. Its installed on a partition and not a virtual machine. Also my used memory is hovering around 399 mb. My Ubuntu is almost double that number.
37 • Lightweight DE comparisons are pointless! (by mikef90000 on 2019-10-28 20:15:37 GMT from United States)
Current web browsers like Firefox and Chrome use far more RAM and CPU cycles than many DEs, so much more of a reason for retiring your ancient 32 bit hardware.
Those of you whining about the plight of users in developing countries, well how about donating a five y/o refurbished desktop or laptop to the cause! It will also put less load on the probably less developed electrical grid.
38 • @37 - developing countries (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 20:34:53 GMT from United States)
> "Those of you whining about the plight of users in developing countries, well how about donating a five y/o refurbished desktop or laptop to the cause! It will also put less load on the probably less developed electrical grid."
There isn't a single word by anyone on this forum except you about developing countries. My experience in developing areas is that people are much more likely to be using android phones for computing and going online, rather than old PCs.
39 • @38, 37, developing countries (by Angel on 2019-10-28 21:00:47 GMT from Philippines)
In agreement with @38 Andy Prough. Having spent the bulk of my last 20 years in developing countries, I speak from experience, not hearsay. Android has nearly the lion's share of normal users, with a smattering of Apple mobile for the well-off. For those needing PCs, (usually for schools or business use) just about anything available at used shops is quite capable of running 64 bit. Sending old, obsolete units will just add to the disposal problem.
I run a 32 bit Windows 10 on a VM. Other than that, it's been quite awhile since I installed a 32 bit system for anyone.
40 • no screen freezes and blank screens with vanilla xfce (by sobolan on 2019-10-28 22:10:10 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
xfce 4.14 on manjaro i3 edition, installed manually from arch repositories.
It runs smoothly and without any trouble for ~ 2 months.
So i think that the issues are distribution specific (either xubuntu or openbsd from comments)
the default xfce 4.14 works just fine for me.
41 • philosophical question about ZFS (by sobolan on 2019-10-28 22:13:01 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
also I have a question:
is it possible to relicence OpenZFS to a more permissive licences.
For example Apache/Mozilla or some BSD.
So that it would be possible to include ZFS in linux kernel itself ?
42 • Lower-end hardware (by hacr on 2019-10-28 22:31:19 GMT from France)
For what it's worth, my desktop workstation has 2 GB memory and an Intel Core2 Duo (2,9GHz) CPU. Most of the software I use does pretty well on that machine (including GIMP), Firefox being a notable exception.
I use VLC to stream audio and video instead of the hilariously resource-intensive junk interfaces provided by most websites. That's how it's supposed to be, anyway. A web browser is not a media player. You'd think that should be apparent from the name.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any truly viable replacement for Firefox yet. I mean just for web browsing, i.e., navigating through hypertext documents with the occasional occurence of images. (Call me a conservative.)
43 • @42 Re: Firefox (by Rev_Don on 2019-10-28 23:03:20 GMT from United States)
I've never run into any problems using FireFox on Core2Duo systems. I do run Ublock Origin on them to block the ads though as I find the Ads are what make browsers active sluggish.
44 • @42 Re: Firefox (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-28 23:59:28 GMT from United States)
> "Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any truly viable replacement for Firefox yet. I mean just for web browsing, i.e., navigating through hypertext documents with the occasional occurence of images. (Call me a conservative.)"
Might try PaleMoon browser. Seems to work fairly well with lower resource systems. It was originally forked from Firefox 4.0, and has been maintained as a separate release since then.
45 • @30 / @33 (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-10-29 00:07:15 GMT from Brazil)
@30
> "Fortunately they don't have to do it all by themselves since they are downstream from Debian, and Debian already maintains all the 32 bit packages."
Not true, many many packages on Ubuntu are repackaged or don't exist at all on Debian.
@33
> IS there a work around or a distro that has the slowdown of XFCE fixed?
Never seen that at all, not even people complaining about that. Maybe your setup is unique.
46 • The best browser, EVER (by Stefan on 2019-10-29 01:46:45 GMT from Brazil)
@42:
Firefox running like a snail? Try the wonderful OTTER BROWSER. It's time to know this incredibly efficient and fully configurable Internet software. Much better than Pale Moon!
47 • @45 Debian 32-bit packages (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-29 02:13:25 GMT from United States)
> "Not true, many many packages on Ubuntu are repackaged or don't exist at all on Debian."
Some, but Debian does have the vast majority of the packages. MX and antiX handle it without a problem, and those are distros with far fewer developer resources than Ubuntu. Even Trisquel, which is based on Ubuntu, still packages a 32-bit version.
48 • Xubuntu (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-10-29 02:40:26 GMT from Brazil)
@47 Ubuntu developers != Xubuntu developers. Xubuntu has a small team, probably not bigger than MX Linux. And of course MX handles 32 bits packages without a problem, it is based on Debian...
49 • AVOID OTTER BROWSER -- WORST BROWSER EVER (by whoKnows on 2019-10-29 07:09:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
"I tested the 32-bit version of the browser under Windows 7. Retrieving web pages works, but much slower than for example Chrome or Firefox. Some limitations like YouTube playback etc."
https://borncity.com/win/2019/01/07/otter-browser-1-0-0-1/
"Unfortunately that works more bad than right. In the test, the "Otter Browser" went on pages with many pictures, but also on YouTube videos, relatively quickly in the knee. Much Javascript and HTML5 pages partly overwhelm the browser."
https://www.chip.de/downloads/Otter-Browser_82129132.html
50 • MX and Devuan (XFCE) (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 08:07:50 GMT from Canada)
MX and Devuan (XFCE -xDebian), both work absolutely fine at least for myself.
51 • OTTER Browser (by Juitse on 2019-10-29 08:21:56 GMT from United States)
@49 Why worst?? This are the closing words of a review: "Otter Browser final is a stable modern browser with lots of integrated features and options. Is it ready for prime time? It is certainly possible to use the browser as the main driver but most users will probably use it as a secondary browser for the time being." (https://www.ghacks.net/2019/01/04/otter-web-browser-final-released/)
Otter is probably not the best browser but certainly not the worst. All web browsers use a lot of RAM because there is a lot of crap on the net. I use Firefox 70 as my primary browser on a 10 years old Duo Core 4GB RAM machine and it is working fine.
52 • Latest Chromium browser, if you need (by OstroL on 2019-10-29 09:17:33 GMT from Poland)
If you are interested in using the newest Chromium (without snap) try https://download-chromium.appspot.com. It is trunk, or sort of rolling. All you have to do is unarchive the file to your username folder and click on the chrome-wrapper file. If Nautilus wont allow running executive files, go to nautilus settings and enable run exe files. You won't have problems of running such files in Thunar or Dolphin.
You can change contents of your chromium folder every week or so, if you want the newest all the time. I'm using this "trunk" Chromium in many Linuxes (even in Clear Linux, Fedora Rawhide) and Windows 10. Never had a problem yet. In Windows 10, you don't need any extra codecs, but in Linuxes, you might need a few.
53 • Collection of software (by Tim on 2019-10-29 09:28:42 GMT from United States)
@47
The current release of Trisquel is based on Ubuntu 16.04, which Cannonical continues to support a 32 bit version of.
On a different note, I thought it interesting that Xubuntu 19.10 worked perfectly for the reviewer but Ubuntu and several other spins had serious problems. I think this underscores the importance of not thinking of any release as part of one's identity or philosophy but rather a collection of software that comes with an intent to support and put in a coherent package. For years, I've used the Debian family, which might mean Debian, Ubuntu MATE, Ubuntu, Mint, or LMDE. Pick which version of the apps you need, find a release that supports them, and keep trying different ones on your various hardware until each has something that works properly. Right now Debian Buster is my favorite on most hardware but I'm totally willing to admit that could be the software I choose and the hardware I have.
54 • ZFS on... off... root, doesn't matter, fantastic addition (by Will on 2019-10-29 13:39:09 GMT from United States)
Finally, ZFS is being added to the distros. I have been hanging onto my FreeBSD server for years, just because of its support for ZFS. When Ubuntu announce experimental support for ZFS on root, I immediately gave it a shot and other than a hiccup with mismatched capabilities, I was able to migrate in a few hours and it's been running smoothly ever since. Snapshots, ssh backups, painless import and export of media across instances. Being able to finally ditch useless, last era, FSes - makes we wanna weep for joy - well, maybe not, but it's pretty awesome. And for folks who are used to dealing with filesystems who haven't used ZFS before, you are in for a real treat. Try it, you'll like it.
55 • Browser options. (by Friar Tux on 2019-10-29 13:46:47 GMT from Canada)
I've been a fan of Firefox for years. I have noticed, lately, that the fox is getting a bit fat and slow. I've tried a few other browsers (Chrome, Chromium, Opera, Vivaldi, Pale Moon, Seamonkey) but wasn't happy with what I found. Then I tried Brave Browser. Love it. It took a few days of getting used to, but I like what it does and how it works. It comes in various package formats (I used the *.deb format) so it can be installed on any platform/distro.
56 • MX Linux 19 (by Bob on 2019-10-29 15:01:38 GMT from United States)
Nice to see MX Linux 19 released... hope they fixed the video card bug...
57 • Yeow...ouch....zfs.... (by tom joad on 2019-10-29 15:12:35 GMT from Switzerland)
Silly me.
I thought I would give ZFS a go to see what the fuss was about. So I fired up a brand new Ubuntu Mate to do the ZFS.
Wrong. I made mistake in not changing the drive in the partition screen to install the new OS. Operator error. I mistakenly installed MATE on my boot drive. Bad deal.
Word to the wise...Focus doing the install and make very sure you have back ups of everything...just in case. And DO NOT put ZFS on the boot drive!
58 • Firefox and Chrome (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 16:58:29 GMT from Canada)
@ #55
"I've been a fan of Firefox for years. I have noticed, lately, that the fox is getting a bit fat and slow. "
It is equivalent to keep another sub-operating system(s) let's a kitten, running within the main operating system. Before you watch a *flix stream on Chrome, everybody is watching you on the tube. And, Firefox is heavy funded.
59 • Distro brewer(s) should charge (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 17:10:08 GMT from Canada)
OpenSource Distro brewer(s) should charge per copy to Firefox and Chrome to be included in the distro(s). As in, Firefox is getting paid pay-per-click and pay-per-month to remove ads on youtube videos.
60 • Xfce... more (by TheTKS on 2019-10-29 19:50:30 GMT from Canada)
@40 I should clarify something.
Screen freezes (and a Catfish problem) only happened to me on Xfce after my update to 4.14 at the same time as my update to OpenBSD to 6.6.
Xfce documentation actually does suggest trying compositor off or different vblank options if certain problems show up after the update.
The simple fix to my screen freezes came down to a window manager setting change suggested in the Xfce docs - compositor off - and everything else I’ve run on OpenBSD 6.6 is working.
So rather than a “distro specific” problem, this seems to me some combination of default settings of new versions of the DE and the OS, and my specific (unchanged) hardware. And maybe nothing to do with the OS.
—-
Aside from this problem, I’ve seen good performance over the past 3 years from Xfce 4.12 and 4.14 with no slowing, over different OS’s and versions and hardware: two boxes and a Raspberry Pi, via Xubuntu 16.04 and 18.04, Slackware 14.2 and SlackwareARM -current, and OpenBSD from 6.2 & 6.3 in VMs and 6.4 through 6.6 dedicated installations on the boxes.
So aside from spending more time than I expected to fix a problem (learning about Xorg, Xfce and configurations in the process), I’m a happy Xfce user.
TKS
61 • Xubuntu's Changing Goals (by Edwin K. Torp on 2019-10-29 20:23:45 GMT from United States)
Xubuntu used to be about being 'lightweight' but then more and more people began drifting toward Xfce-- not because it was lightweight, but because it was not Gnome. It is for this reason that Xubuntu is now simply targeted at sane people and it is due to Xfce's attachment to Gtk that it, similar to LXQt, is now considered 'midweight' in the grand scheme of desktops.
I am a long time Xfce and Xubuntu user but finally doing away with the final vestiges of Ubuntu around here. (Using Xfce less too but that's the way things go) By 2020 I should be 100% rid of systemd (and pulseaudio) Farewell Xubuntu-- you were the all-around best *ubuntu.
F*%k Snaps
62 • Mystery of Indirect Dependancies. (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 21:02:42 GMT from Canada)
Every single linux distro we try comes with jam-packed mysteries.
Hence, the mysteries of indirect-dependencies still remain unresolved.
63 • Would gladly use ZFS in the future (by Dxvid on 2019-10-29 22:34:14 GMT from Sweden)
I would gladly start using ZFS if it becomes standard on Linux servers and some big distro makes sure it's 100% stable together with each released kernel and patch. Then I will trust it to be stable enough. Each file system has a place to fill, if there was one file system that was perfect there wouldn't exist so many. ZFS has a role to play for sure, but until major distros make sure it's tested and implemented correctly I will primarily use the more common file system like XFS, EXT4 and BTRFS which have worked fine for me for years. ZFS has great features in theory, so I will gladly start using it in the future.
One thing that is important to know is that more advanced file systems will use more resources, ZFS and BTRFS both have very advanced functionality and will slightly increase CPU usage on normal machines, but if a machine does heavy file operations often, CPU usage can be considerably higher at times with both ZFS and BTRFS, and with ZFS RAM usage can get considerably higher.
Couldn't find perfect article about this but but the debian wiki explains a little about this here:
https://wiki.debian.org/Btrfs#Maintenance
If high performance and low usage of resources is more important than tons of advanced features like snapshots and CRC for files, then I would recommend people to use XFS. If the data is important to you or your workplace I recommend BTRFS which is well implemented on SUSE/OpenSUSE, or ZFS which is well implemented on FreeBSD, but I wouldn't use those file systems on distros who halfhearted kind of support them but not entirely, or at least read though all the limitations and recommendations for that distro. The important is to use the right file system for the right purpose and to dimension the machine for the advanced file systems if you use them on heavy load machines.
Using BTRFS on root is like coming to heaven if you've only used EXT4 before, "snapper rollback" is great if a package update created problems for you config or if NVIDIA publishes buggy proprietary drivers, looking at the diff if you made some configuration errors is helpful, having snapshots created every time you risk making mistakes is great so that you can easily revert them. I can imagine ZFS on root can be a similar experience if implemented correctly by the distro. I haven't used FreeBSD in production as I'm a Linux fan, but it's interesting to try it out for fun. Linux makes competitors being forced to cooperate for the greater good, which I like.
64 • Talking more about dependancies (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 23:06:09 GMT from Canada)
XFCE or any other DE must be considered as a AUI - Application(s) User's Interface.
As there are other system components performing exactly same task
Why would XFCE core component xfwn should depend on DNS resolving library??? This is just only one out of many thousands, and the addition plug-in(s) for say text-editor(s) or any.
There are plethora of irrelevant - non-required dependencies mysteries with every single package.
65 • Dependancies (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-29 23:18:09 GMT from Canada)
XFCE core gtk-3.0 engine depends on GLIB-2 GNOME library which in turn dependans on networking, dependencies marry-GO -round is very complex.
66 • Advising browsers based on Chrome/Chromium (bad idea!)... (by Marc V. on 2019-10-30 11:57:04 GMT from Netherlands)
@42:
Otter Browser? Well, another browser based on Chromium. The 10.643th variant on what is, in the end, Google. Well, keep on advising browsers based on Chrome/Chromium, and the whole internet is optimised for Google and the Blink engine. Just like it was when Internet Explorer took over the world wide web back in the early 2000's.
We should all support Firefox, as this is the only browser of importance that is NOT Chrome/Chromium based, and which don't have the Blink engine.
Advising browsers which are all forks and copies of Chromium/Chrome is a really BAD idea.
I still wonder why people, especially Linux people, abandoned Firefox in favor of a data slurping browser made and/or owned by Google. I've been using Firefox since day one (2004), and I was always very content with it. I really don't care if another browser is 0,00001 second faster in loading pages. It's the idea behind why you should use and support it. It's a matter of principle, and loading pages a fraction of a second faster is very trivial.
Even the open source enthousiastics give too much support on Google, browsers based on their product and their practices concerning privacy. If this continues like that, Google will be the only force on internet.
Please stop advising browsers based on Chrome/Chromium. Basically you advice the demise of Firefox in the end. A very bad and unwanted situation...
67 • @66 Marc V. (by dragonmouth on 2019-10-30 13:02:17 GMT from United States)
"I still wonder why people, especially Linux people, abandoned Firefox in favor of a data slurping browser made and/or owned by Google."
For 2 basic reasons.
1) Convenience. Google offers a bunch of other apps that are compatible with each other and the browser. FF does not. It is only a browser.
2) Tech press. It seems like every tech writer and pundit is of the opinion that Chrome/Chromium are The Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread. They all sound like they were on Google payroll. These are the same people that make it sound like Ubuntu is the only Linux distro in existence.
"a data slurping browser made and/or owned by Google"
Have you looked into FF lately? FF is using Google's Safe Browsing which means that each site you visit is checked against a Google database and your visit to the site is recorded by Google. Go into 'about:config' and type in 'Google' on the search line. You will be surprised at how many times FF access Google's servers.
68 • @67 - Google links on Firefox (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-30 15:23:48 GMT from United States)
> "Have you looked into FF lately? FF is using Google's Safe Browsing which means that each site you visit is checked against a Google database and your visit to the site is recorded by Google. Go into 'about:config' and type in 'Google' on the search line. You will be surprised at how many times FF access Google's servers."
You can turn off safe browsing in preferences, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you want a Firefox-derivative browser that doesn't have those links by default you can use palemoon.
69 • Ubuntu and 32 Bit death (by Herol on 2019-10-30 16:11:16 GMT from Germany)
Having a number of older computers in daily usage which need 32 Bit software one of my last havens is AntiX, I moved thinking maybe I would miss a lot of convenience or find transition difficult.
My experience has been so good that I am in process of moving all our systems to AntiX and Ice WM which I had to setup once to my liking on 32 bit, a second time for 64 each time using the brilliant remaster tool to create a standard installation base.
Thanks Ubuntu, I have learnt that yet again another distro is miles ahead,
without the news about dropping 32 bit support I might have still been putting up with slow running, higher memory usage and dependency hell.
My oldest Pentium box is no longer feeling ancient and wheezy. Even running Libreoffice and browsing with Palemoon . I do have ad blocking hosts file and run from SSD which makes a massive difference.
70 • Web Browsers (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-30 18:44:07 GMT from Canada)
@ #66, 67 and 68
Distro Brewers like MX, PCLOS, ANTIX and SLACKWARE put their time, efforts and resources (which in fact are limited) to brew a usable distro, Here on Jesse and his team work hard to keep this site up-to-date. And at the end, result is some else is collecting the data, selling the data, getting paid per click, and gets load full of money.
I would still suggest Firefox, Chrome or any web browser must be dropped out from distro unless and until Web Browser pay Distro Brewers per copy. If they gets full loads of money (Firefox and Gogole) they have to give-out to distro brewers per copy. All browser package must be available in their repo(s). Distro users must have a browser in the repo per their choice per say Firefox, Chrome, Otter, Palemoon, Maxthon etc.
By the way, palemoon is running chrome engine on back-end.
71 • @68: (by dragonmouth on 2019-10-30 18:45:30 GMT from United States)
Using Preferences to turn off Safe Browsing does not do a complete Job. One needs to go into 'about:config' and change some keys to totally turn off Safe Browsing.
I do use PaleMoon.
72 • Google links on Firefox (by Luxie Tuxie on 2019-10-30 18:56:23 GMT from Canada)
@ #67 and 68
Google successfully destroyed all independently developed web browsers having their own and unique engine. Others are forced to switch their engine to Chrome.
I am correcting your lines:
In a firefox, type about:config and hit enter in the browsing window, Go into 'about:config' and type in 'Google' on the search line. You will be surprised at how many times FF access Google's servers.
These lines justify the claim that Firefox is also well-funded.
73 • @70 - Palemoon (by Andy Prough on 2019-10-30 19:22:25 GMT from United States)
> "By the way, palemoon is running chrome engine on back-end."
Palemoon is not running a chrome engine - it uses its own fork of Mozilla's gecko engine, called Goanna.
74 • @73, Firefox funding (by Angel on 2019-10-31 10:41:58 GMT from Philippines)
If Firefox offers Google search as default, that is a source of funding. The lines in about:config are accessing Google services such as safe browsing, which are available to any browser developer at no charge. Nothing to do with funding.
75 • Chrome/Chromium vs. Firefox (by David on 2019-10-31 17:35:14 GMT from United States)
Browse at your own risk, whichever browser you choose to use -
"Review: Google Chrome has become surveillance software. It’s time to switch.
Our latest privacy experiment found Chrome ushered more than 11,000 tracker cookies into our browser — in a single week. Here’s why Firefox is better."
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/21/google-chrome-has-become-surveillance-software-its-time-to-switch/
https://themindunleashed.com/2019/06/google-chrome-spy-software.html
https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/06/21/1922233/chrome-has-become-surveillance-software-its-time-to-switch
"Google Chrome API changes may disable most ad blockers"
The company says the changes are about page speed, security and user privacy; critics are more cynical about Google's motives."
https://martechtoday.com/google-chrome-api-changes-may-disable-most-ad-blockers-229971
JMHO
76 • XFCE (by willnay98 on 2019-10-31 19:30:59 GMT from United States)
I don't understand why they can't resolve screen tearing out of the box and add some modern features to Thunar.
77 • @75 Re: Chrome (by Rev_Don on 2019-10-31 21:25:26 GMT from United States)
"Google Chrome API changes may disable most ad blockers"
The company says the changes are about page speed, security and user privacy; critics are more cynical about Google's motives."
https://martechtoday.com/google-chrome-api-changes-may-disable-most-ad-blockers-229971 "
This is old and outdated by about 10 months. Google backtracked on disabling Ad Blockers MONTHS ago.
78 • Appreciation For Updated Information (by David on 2019-10-31 23:51:41 GMT from United States)
@77
Thanks for your update.
I found these more current links to Google's limited decision to backtrack on its plan -
"....While Google hasn't completely backtracked from its plans, it has made concessions amidst public outcry and legal threats."
"
https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/02/17/google-backtracks-on-chrome-ad-blocker-changes-after-public-outcry-and-legal-threats/
"Google partially backtracks on Chrome changes that would break ad blockers"
Benchmarks showed that most ad blockers don't make network requests much slower.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/02/google-partially-backtracks-on-chrome-changes-that-would-break-ad-blockers/
It's good to know that Google is under surveillance & scrutiny by testing & standards organizations.
JMHO
79 • @75 (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-11-01 14:56:37 GMT from Brazil)
@75
Chrome is not inserting any cookies into web pages, these are just misconceptions. What is happening here is that newer versions of Firefox try to block third-party tracking by default, which has always been possible with extensions in any browsers. It's not their fault at all, blame the websites.
80 • Chrome (by Andy Prough on 2019-11-01 15:41:02 GMT from United States)
Even if you need to use a chrome-based browser, there's ungoogled-chromium, Iridium, Brave browser, and maybe more that I'm not thinking of that attempt to avoid Chrome's privacy issues and attempt to make the chromium base more secure.
Number of Comments: 80
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