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1 • OSDisc (by sarkar on 2019-08-12 01:08:35 GMT from United States)
I remember when I went 100% Linux user at home, I purchased Debian 3-DVD set from OSDisc. Sad to see OSDisc to go away but it was inevitable. People are comfortable with Linux ISO downloads now a days. And no matter how slow your internet connection is, getting a physical disc is still slower and time consuming.
2 • bad week in Linuxland (by Pete on 2019-08-12 01:13:45 GMT from New Zealand)
In the past week we lose OS DIsc and Linux Journal. Both excellent resources and will be missed, but such is the economics of our world.
3 • Finding files (by Guido on 2019-08-12 01:14:36 GMT from Philippines)
I can recommend the tools "Catfish" and "FSearch". Very comfortable and usable GUIs. But in the background they use again find, locate etc.
4 • OSDisc shutting down. (by R. Cain on 2019-08-12 01:23:07 GMT from United States)
I'm really surprised at this. I would have thought that, given the general flakiness of USB-burning programs (except for "dd"; but who uses the command line? Who knows *how* to use it, any more?), that selling thumb drives would have off-set the demise of the CD/DVD drive versions. Apparently not.
I wonder if this speaks to a broader problem--the interest, or lack thereof, in Linux distributions--both BRAND-new, and every NEW, bug-filled version from existing distributions, which absolutely MUST appear every six months.
Good to have known you OSDisc; you were an oasis of sanity in this big, lunacy-infested sandbox--one of the true "white hats". You'll be sorely missed.
5 • locate v. which v. whereis (by bigbenaugust on 2019-08-12 01:52:26 GMT from United States)
which was mentioned in the article but not the poll. I also often use whereis also.
6 • Catfish (by Mike on 2019-08-12 02:00:54 GMT from United States)
I use Catfish to locate files among my 700k. It is fast and works well. I could never get KDE's baloo to work for finding files. It always hung and gobbled up resources trying to make the initial index.
7 • community-pclinuxos-trinity-bigdaddy-2019.08 versus Q4OS (by Tran Older on 2019-08-12 02:41:17 GMT from Vietnam)
Q4OS is good but too minimalistic. For a Trinity distro with all the apps ready for daily use, we can try community-TDE-PCLinuxOS, downloadable at https://pclosusers.com/communityiso/Trinity/community-pclinuxos-trinity-bigdaddy-2019.08.iso.
8 • Q4OS (by Damodaran M V on 2019-08-12 04:26:49 GMT from India)
I have tried 3.6 and 3.7 versions in my old PC's with core2duo 7500E, 2GB RAM, Intel graphics (onboard). All of them worked very well and they are still running nicely. Then I have configured a LTSP server with Q4OS and about 5 thin clients are running without any complaints.(Core 2duo 8500 E with 4 G Ram) The up gradation from 3.6 to 3.7 version went smoothly. Thin/fat clients working very well with Trinity Desktop.
I have also tried it with Raspberry pi 3. The performance is not in par with the default Raspbian OS
From my experience Q4OS is a very good option for Old as well as new computers with low specs.I think it has significance in developing countries like INDIA. (Yes, I am from India)
9 • booting distros, and finding files (by mmphosis on 2019-08-12 05:24:05 GMT from Canada)
* Booting Distros
Sad to see OSDisc shutdown. I started with CD/DVD distros from our local Linux user group. Having an "easy" way to install the operating system is why I started with Ubuntu. I have moved on from Ubuntu, but installing distros is still not that easy. I have a lot more command line kung foo available than when I started. So, for a recent install, I downloaded the "live", extracted the distro to a hard drive partition, renamed the "live" folder to "live-hd" and added an entry (modified from the example) to the 40_custom GRUB menu, and crossed my fingers. It took a few restarts and grub-updates, and eventually I was able to boot a new distro. Easy, not.
* Finding Files
I don't like indexers thrashing the hard drive in the background. I turn off the mlocate cron job, and don't use locate. (On Mac OS X, I turn off Spotlight.) I do use find and which and grep, a lot.
I also created two new commands that I have been working on:
1. show how to ... -- an elaborate 'which' command
# show how to help
source showhowto [-l] [command] [alias] [function] [variable]
The showhowto bash shell script, with it's show and how functions, shows the path/link to commands and information or the source of scripts, aliases, functions, and variables.
2. newest -- shows the newest 24 newest files in the current directory.
# show newest
alias newest=find . -type f -exec stat -c '%Y %n' {} \; | sort -r | cut -b 14- | head -n 24
#alias newest="find . -type f -exec stat -f '%m %N' {} \; | sort -r | cut -b 14- | head -n 24" # darwin version
The alias is the simple version. There is also a newest function that uses a custom stat command written in C that can retrieve the results much faster.
function newest () { mstat $@ | sort -nr | cut -d ' ' -f 2- | head -n 24 ; }
10 • Q4OS & Recoll (by Microlinux on 2019-08-12 05:35:05 GMT from France)
I tried Q4OS a while back, and I really enjoyed the experience, though my main desktop is OpenSUSE Leap + KDE. I use Recoll for indexing and searching files, it works great and finds all your needles in the haystack. Catfish and the likes are just toys.
11 • OSDisc (by greenpossum on 2019-08-12 06:30:55 GMT from United States)
>the general flakiness of USB-burning programs
#notinmyexperience
Vale, OSDisc.
12 • Q4os (by Francesco on 2019-08-12 06:52:56 GMT from Italy)
Recently i have installed q4os 32 bit on a Pentium 4 HT 3.2 GHz with 2 GB of ram, that i was about to trash.
Now it works really fine, to the point that i've bought an ssd for it (a cheap one from Kingdian) and feels and in fact works better than many much newer computer. Boot takes only 29 seconds and overall usability is great.
Congratulations to q4os developers!
13 • The Haiku developers (by Sanjay Prasad on 2019-08-12 07:10:39 GMT from India)
Its great to see Haiku developers doing what needed for low end devices, I will try for my old emachine 732z, will also upgrade to 240GB SSD
14 • Q4OS (by Glenn Condrey on 2019-08-12 07:52:55 GMT from United States)
After Xandros died, I was surprised to see another Debian based distro that used a continuation of the old KDE 3.5 desktop in Trinity.
It feels polished...and is user friendly.
I feel very at home with Q4OS.
15 • Q4OS (by Jahl foss on 2019-08-12 08:38:25 GMT from Nigeria)
It's heart touching to see OSDISC go,I've tried Q4OS for some time and the experience was awesome.
16 • OSDisc, Linux Journal and so on... (by OstroL on 2019-08-12 08:56:05 GMT from Poland)
The closing of Linux related websites had become a standard these days. The well liked Webupd8 stopped publishing in the end of 2017, Noobslab stopped for a while and came back, but there appears to be anyone reading it, for there aren't an comments any more. They were source of new ppas, themes, icons etc. I won't be surprised, if many other still available Linux related web sites close down.
It maybe because of the inability of Linux distros to become the general desktop operating system. Since nearly 2 decades, I am with Linux, I always heard (saw) from all Linux distros that they are actually a substitute to the existing domineering OS platform, that it looked like that, it worked more or less like that, it even ran that OS's programs with a an emulator, which is "not-an-emulator" and so on. The feeling of the substitute, or the poor brother is wouldn't bring in success. The newer Linux kernel based OS, Android came in not trying to be anyone's substitute, without complexes, and became a success, and the domineering OS. And, the multitude of web sites related to it, and thriving.
I always hoped Linux distros would stop considering them as a substitute, but it appears that it won't happen in my lifetime. I hope Distrowatch would hold on, even with less and less new distros coming in to watch for.
17 • Today's subjetcts (by Jim on 2019-08-12 10:11:14 GMT from United States)
I bought one disk from OSDisc, Xandros back up in the dial up days, with high speed Internet I downloaded faster and had less problems with flaws in the hash.
I use Catfish of my file browser (Caja) search.
I tried Q4OS just for fun, and found it worked well and was interesting. Yet I tend not to like MS Windows clones that are to "Windows" like for newbies. Having a graphic box for installing software that looks like the MS .exe or . msi installation GUI could be very confusing to a :Linux newbie. They might think they can install any .exe or msi file without WINE and become discouraged when that does not work.
18 • Finding files (by Ista Zahn on 2019-08-12 10:35:08 GMT from United States)
There are some more recent command line alternatives to find and locate that I use a lot, including https://github.com/sharkdp/fd and https://github.com/junegunn/fzf
19 • cheer up (by Tim on 2019-08-12 11:02:44 GMT from United States)
Cheer up Ostro. Jesse just wrote a glowing review of a distro that wasn't even on my radar, and there's people chiming in from around the world about how it's helped them keep old computers going. Debian just released an incredibly rock-solid Buster which I think will be the base of many more such capable derivatives. Millions of kids around the world are using Linux in the form of ChromeOS. One of the most positive things I've seen for the Linux community in recent years has been the emergence of very active Facebook groups. With forums, a newbie had to figure out what problem they were having before they could even ask the question, but with these groups a large number of users see the question and can help without preconceived notions of what the problem is.
The doom and gloom is really only here in the comments thread. Lots of good stuff is happening in other places. The source of the angst that we don't have more marketshare always seems to have been that it would mean Linux would fizzle away. That's not happening.
20 • @16 Linux as substitute (by Randolf on 2019-08-12 11:19:58 GMT from United States)
Linux distros SHOULD consider themselves as substitute (or replacement) for other OS. If they dont, why should someone use them?
21 • Lighter distros and the future of Linux (by MikeOh Shark on 2019-08-12 11:53:06 GMT from Austria)
It seems to me that every time we see a review of a lighter weight, fast, stable distro we also see a lot of enthusiastic comments. Maybe light weight is a chink in Microsoft's armor.
It also surprises me that Linux is claimed to have small penetration in the market. Whenever people find out that I use Linux they get excited and tell me about their trials and efforts to get more into using it.
Linux needs to push it's killer apps. Isn't the ultimate "backup" a personal live distro? What could be better than having a CD/DVD/USB that boots your personalised Linux with your email settings and favorite apps all ready to go when you boot it?
Before all this UEFI mess, I used to be able to unplug my flash drive with it's Linux and take it to work, plug it into a different PC, and boot my exact same desktop at work. Try that with Windows!
22 • @20 Randolf: (by dragonmouth on 2019-08-12 13:00:10 GMT from United States)
I prefer to think of Windows and OS/X as straitjacketed substitutes for Linux.
23 • @7 Tran Older: (by dragonmouth on 2019-08-12 13:08:26 GMT from United States)
Minimalism, just like most things, is relative. Not everyone needs/wants a Full Monty distro. :-)
I currently use PCLOS TDE but I'd like something lighter, so I'll be switching to Q4OS Trinity.
24 • search files (by former on 2019-08-12 13:11:43 GMT from United States)
Check out drill, I have it's appimage. It searches differently, horizontally (first level folders, then second level folders...) it is very fast. GUI search, if you double click on found result it opens default file manager that opens of course with location where is file you were looking for - I just love it, try it out
25 • OSDisc = Excellent Service (by Geo.Savage on 2019-08-12 13:16:03 GMT from Canada)
OSDisc:
Shipped over 300,000 discs and USB drives
Helped over 110,000 users get started with Linux
Answered over 25,000 tech support tickets
Given back over $200,000 to the open source community
- Ramsey Brenner - OSDisc.com Founder
I found their service excellent and wish them well in their next adventure. I have a CD bin stuffed with their discs. Being a kinesthetic guy, I still marvel that I can hold generations of work, and a world of exploration in my hand. Thank you for helping me find Mepis (MXLinux) and discover that Linux didn't have to be hard.
:-)
26 • @19 Cheering up... (by akoy on 2019-08-12 13:21:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Millions of kids around the world are using Linux in the form of ChromeOS."
Sure, but none of those kids know anything about the Linux part of it, and that knowledge is pretty much not advertised. Chrome OS got its popularity to not trying to be a substitute to any other OS, but by standing alone and proving that it is the best out there. The attitude is different, not being the substitute or the poor brother, but the winner. It is a one-OS, not a fragmented society, no infighting.
Anyway, Chrome OS popularity is mostly in the US. There are European countries, where one can't even find a Chromebook in any of the computer shops.
27 • OSDisc (by Bob on 2019-08-12 14:19:06 GMT from United States)
No surprise about OSDisc. Last laptop I bought with a DVD drive was in 2011. These things are becoming as rare as 3.5" floppies.
@MikeOh Shark
"Linux needs to push its killer apps..." <- Linux's killer app is being a solid server platform and the push has been pretty comprehensive. Being able to hijack random hardware with a USB drive sounds more like a bug than a feature to me.
28 • Plugging in USB drive to work computer (by Jediknight on 2019-08-12 18:37:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Quote:
"I used to be able to unplug my flash drive with it's Linux and take it to work,"
I once tried to run a script on my work computer (Windows) which randomised some parameters and emailed the result to a designated mailbox on the local mailserver.
Result was the IT department turning up at my desk in a tantrum. (I hope Brendan reads Distrowatch)
I would have loved to see what fuss installing a whole OS on my work computer would have generated.
29 • Searching files (by Roger on 2019-08-12 19:03:54 GMT from Belgium)
I don't use anything because all is in folders on my cloud, no need for finding a file, I know where they are.
30 • Q4OS (by Barnabyh on 2019-08-12 20:02:29 GMT from United States)
There probably isn't a music player installed by default beacuse, if I understand them correctly, Q4OS is primarily targeted at business desktops.
Nice to have Synaptic putting the entire Debian repo in your hands.
31 • portable Linux (by MikeOh Shark on 2019-08-12 21:13:47 GMT from Austria)
@Bob and @JediKnight
I didn't mention it but when I brought my Linux to work on USB, I was the sysadmin and needed to clean malware off of other's PCs. The big Kahunas told me to just reimage the computers and leave the users to set up everything but my local boss (who did my performance review) told me to clean in place and not reimage.
I usually unplugged the ethernet cable when I needed to use something on my flash drive Linux. It was more to demonstrate the value of Linux to others.
Regarding booting from flash, I consider the attempts by manufacturers to limit me to their OS or to have to authenticate with them to be worse.
32 • TDE - dangerous/obsolete networking stack? (by Uncle Slacky on 2019-08-12 21:48:52 GMT from France)
I'm a big fan of TDE generally, I currently prefer EXE to Q4OS as it doesn't use systemd. It's ideal for old netbooks like my eeePC 701 4G and Acer Aspire One ZG5. I've heard various unsubstantiated rumours that the TDE networking stack is risky as it hasn't been updated since the KDE 3 days, though I think Q4OS and EXE both use network-manager instead of tde-network-manager(?). Anyone know anything about this?
33 • USB writing programs... Linux success (by Bobbie Sellers on 2019-08-13 02:15:30 GMT from United States)
I haven't had problems with writing simple USB booting Flash Drives
in years. I generally use with PCLinuxOS64, the excellent "ddcopy"
which is a Python script with a minimal GUI.
Writing a boot USB Flash Driver with a Persistent partition for which
we have a special tool is a bit harder except on Knoppix where
it always seems to work very well. I have been doing Knoppix USB
drives for years and in the last year have begun to switch from
DVD/CDs to Flash Drives to show off and demonstrate new
distributions. I have my Dell E6520 setup to boot from Flash
Drives due to the quicker boot and load seen with these tools.
Linux is a great success where either a computer hobbyist or
a very well trained and paid person is at hand for advice.
Mostly the paid people will be maintaining servers.
To use Linux on the desktop requires a good deal of knowledge
or a Linux Users Group where experts may be available to
consult and/or the good sense to join online forums for your chosen
distribution. That is why I became associated with the SF-LUG
here in San Francisco. It helped me a lot in the early days.
The reason I think that Linux is not doing so well in the consumer
field is due to the wide-spread use of tablets, phablets and smart
phones as in the beginning we had to have laptops or desktops
and it is simple to install Linux on most of these. Linux tablets
and phones may arrive soon but the consumer will likely stick
to the Android and iOS. My purchase of a high-end tablet
was a washout as the OS was not able to load Linux with
a law to enforce that nonsensical concept.
bliss
34 • @33 USB writing programs (by Charles Hale on 2019-08-13 04:07:12 GMT from Philippines)
AGREE, AGREE, AGREE !!!! Even Gnome-Disks App, which is on about every distro, has a 'Restore Disk Image' function that works just fine. So where is anyone's problem with image to USB??
35 • Locate command (by Alexandru on 2019-08-13 06:20:16 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
"This means locate is ideal at finding information that is a day or more older, ... but it is not useful for finding brand new files"
In order to be able to run locate for brand new files, you can run before it the command:
updatedb
It will take some time to actualize the database, but then locate will bring new files into search result.
36 • @33 (by OstroL on 2019-08-13 07:35:37 GMT from Poland)
"Linux is a great success where either a computer hobbyist or a very well trained and paid person is at hand for advice."
More or less true. Linux had stayed o the hobbyist level for too long. The older guys, like me, are still there, and some younger guys comes into have a look. Stays for a while and move on. I've been looking at DWW comments page in 2010 and before. Out of which only few are around these days. Those, who were here in 2015 are also gone.
37 • Long time readers (by Barnabyh on 2019-08-13 10:22:48 GMT from Germany)
Hi OstroL, I've also been reading DWW since at least 2005. But just because people are not posting does not mean they are not reading, or not using a Linux distribution any more. Maybe they're just busy and using their machines without reading comments every week, some got tired of recurring debates that to them do not add value any more once you have been through these discussions a few times.
38 • chrome, supercomputers, and desktop linux (by Tim on 2019-08-13 11:58:11 GMT from United States)
I just think the doom and gloom stuff is inappropriate, because it always excludes the places where Linux is excelling.
If you don't want to count ChromeOS as Linux that's fine... but it is Linux. The average user of Chrome doesn't want to go beyond the browser based interface, but thanks to Crouton it's pretty easy to do so. Jesse would point out its closed source and that's a true knock on it (one can't compile kernel modules, for example, so no Virtualbox) but other than that it's a capable Linux OS that happily runs my XFCE chroot.
For embedded systems, supercomputers, and servers, Linux is dominating.
I could see the concern for the desktop if there was any evidence that desktop linux was shriveling up and dying, but it isn't. There's a lot of good offerings right now, and this week's Distrowatch was about one of them apparently.
39 • @27 Bug or Feature (by Dr. E.S. Ktorp on 2019-08-13 12:08:43 GMT from United States)
"Being able to hijack random hardware with a USB drive sounds more like a bug than a feature to me."
Have you ever used a computer prior to 1995? You might be surprised to learn that the personal computer Hard Disk Drive is a relatively new invention, in the grand scheme of all things computer-related. Before that, there was only removable media; diskettes. Functionally not much different from a USB flash drive of today. To even use a computer, one had to first load software from a removable disk. If you were going from one lab to another, with similar computer systems, you could take your disks with you and continue your work elsewhere. This is the same kind of persistent, partially system-agnostic method of operation you are referring to as 'more of a bug than a feature'.
Your use of the word 'hijack' demonstrates the agenda you are pushing, as well as your lack of familiarity with computers.
40 • @ 38 Chrome OS & Linux (by OstroL on 2019-08-13 12:46:16 GMT from Poland)
"If you don't want to count ChromeOS as Linux that's fine... but it is Linux. The average user of Chrome doesn't want to go beyond the browser based interface, but thanks to Crouton it's pretty easy to do so."
Few of us know that Chrome OS is based on the Linux kernel, and that the OS build around it is not GNU OS. The guys, who created it, maintains it don't really want the "standard" users to know that. They want those users, the millions of kids in the US etc, to know it as Chrome OS, even better as the Chromebook. Doesn't matter what it is based on, but it is the (THE) best, and that it is a device you buy, not an OS. That's all about it.
A device, just like an iPad, Macbook, but better and cheaper.
Chrome OS, as an OS is not available to be installed in our devices that run GNU/Linux (and Windows) and it is even discouraged.
41 • Declining interest in Linux (by R. Cain on 2019-08-13 13:04:01 GMT from United States)
""...I wonder if this speaks to a broader problem--the interest, or lack thereof, in Linux distributions--both BRAND-new, and every NEW, bug-filled version from existing distributions, which absolutely MUST appear every six months..."
There is probably no one more qualified to comment on whether or not interest i Linux is declining than Jesse Smith, and the people he works with / for.
Their comments on this aspect of the 'Linux-verse'--as well as perceived reasons--would be deeply appreciated by all, and extremely enlightening.
42 • Linux decline (by Johhny on 2019-08-13 13:10:32 GMT from United States)
If Linux is declining, then why would Windows be adding it to their system.
43 • OSDisc (by Chris on 2019-08-13 13:18:28 GMT from United States)
It's a shame about OSDisc. They were really useful for people who have slow or unreliable internet, or have bandwidth caps. I used them a few times back when I still had really slow internet, they helped me get into Linux. (Ubuntu 9.10) Their prices were fair and getting a disc from them was better than waiting hours upon hours for a download. It's a shame that that resource won't be available for people who still need it.
44 • # 42 -- Linux decline (by R. Cain on 2019-08-13 13:51:18 GMT from United States)
@ 42 --
Very good point.
The only problem is: is this a rhetorical question, i.e., are you offering this as a suggestion for Jesse Smith, et al, to consider when (if) he (they) provide us with his / their "take' on this situation?
Or, rather, are you offering this as an objection to what you perceive is a position which was *not* taken, but merely 'posited'?-- ("...I wonder if this speaks to a broader problem--the INTEREST, or LACK THEREOF, in Linux distributions--both BRAND-new, and every NEW, bug-filled version from existing distributions, which absolutely MUST appear every six months...")
I will take partial responsibility for this, by stating that the title of Post #41 SHOULD have been, "POSSIBLE declining interest...". Notice that I quite specifically said elsewhere, :...the interest, or lack thereof...", and "...one more qualified to comment on WHETHER or NOT interest i[n] Linux is declining...".
Clarification of what you mean by your Post #42 is still desired, however.
45 • Chromebooks and access control (by Tim on 2019-08-13 14:22:02 GMT from United States)
@39
It isn't 1995, and most of the working world uses computers managed under extremely tight control by our employers. Trying to circumvent those controls by loading a different OS that considered us the administrator would lead to some uncomfortable talks with Human Resources. Hence @27's point.
@40
The reason the Chromebook is great for the school environment isn't marketing or any false pretenses that it's the best (in fact it's not the best, and the kids are well aware of that.) It's very specifically tailored to a school environment. A school can buy 2000 of the things, and they're all functionally identical. As a teacher I probably loaned "my" Chromebook to 3 kids a day who forgot theirs. Since everything is saved to the cloud, it doesn't matter what device you're on. From the school's perspective it's like a piece of furniture- entirely interchangeable.
That makes it much more like the versions of Linux tailored to kiosks, or maybe OpenElec than a general purpose Linux distribution. But that doesn't mean it's not Linux. Provided you own the Chromebook, it's trivial to make it into a nice Linux laptop using chroots and crouton. Google doesn't hide that. (The millions of kids using school issued ones can't do this for the same reason @39's point doesn't hold. They would love to use the Linux part of their Chromebook if they could use it to get around the access controls we put in.)
46 • Decline (by Tim on 2019-08-13 14:37:29 GMT from United States)
R Cain
Can you provide a citation or link to where Jesse said the thing you are saying he said? I would like to see what context he said it in.
47 • @ 45 (by OstroL on 2019-08-13 14:40:35 GMT from Poland)
Where does it say anything about Linux here, https://www.google.com/chromebook/? Or here, https://www.google.com/chromebook/chrome-os/?
48 • Marketing (by Tim on 2019-08-13 15:01:23 GMT from United States)
@47
They're openly marketing Chromebooks as being Linux compatible at this point.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/run-linux-apps-any-chromebook/amp
49 • @45 (by Dr. E.S. Ktorp on 2019-08-13 15:37:05 GMT from United States)
Today's culture of corporate and academic computer paranoia existed well before 1995, so none of that validates the jagged point of referring to a perfectly normal and valuable feature as a hijacking or a bug, simply because Bob wants to poo-poo on something. In the real working world, most bosses don't give a crap how you get the work done, so long as it looks the way they want upon completion. What you're talking about (IT freaking out to HR about out about someone livebooting their Linux desktop on a work computer) is generally confined to large office heirarchy and the perpetual paranoid nightmare of academia.
Meanwhile people are here discussing whether to deride or extoll Chromebooks / ChromeOS; an iteration of the old-fashioned principle of remote / terminal computing. Nearly the same topic, but I don't see Bob smearing his very valuable opinion on anyone's Chromebook.
It's not much different from plugging a system-on-a-chip in to different displays.. same basic principle of taking your computer system with you and using the doodads at work to access it. How is that different from someone bringing their own laptop to work? Happens every day.
All of this reminds of the time a classmate of mine 'got in trouble' for bringing games from home, to play on the Apple IIe computers at school. He didn't exploit a bug, or hijack a computer. He simply broke an unspoken, unwritten rule, about how NOT to use the computers. Really, the teacher just wanted to make an example out of him because she was a petty individual. Instead of getting in trouble for not paying attention in class, like a sane person would have instituted, he got in trouble for 'hacking school computers' at a time when such a thing was practically unheard of (especially at an elementary school); the stuff of silly movies and as absurd of a description of the event, back then, as it is now.
50 • alternate boot from USB (by MikeOh Shark on 2019-08-13 16:29:16 GMT from United States)
@45, @49
Having the ability to boot an alternate OS from USB is not about booting our employer's computer. Most of us are way too busy at work to do that and it's not about escaping from their control. It's about using our own hardware the way we want.
In these days where corporations install snoopware without our knowledge and consent, monitor our DNS or SNI, and refuse network neutrality, we need to have the right to use our hardware and not consider it a temporary license to use only as the seller wants. It's one way to give some power back to the individual. My PC is not intended to be a portal to an online service that wants to turn me into a constant revenue stream.
We also need the power to keep corporations from using firmware updates to revoke capabilities or features we already have.
Linux and open source are for the people.
51 • No one is against USB drives booting (by Tim on 2019-08-13 17:17:35 GMT from United States)
@50
This discussion started with @21 saying they could bring their OS to work. No one is saying they're against booting from flash drives in general. We're all saying that the vast majority of corporate IT environments would consider this a major security risk and it would not be allowed.
@49
The distinction between booting a live desktop and bringing your own device should be pretty obvious. Everywhere I've worked with BYOD, you've gotten network access through a dedicated network, with limited access to network resources. Desktops had much more access. Also, if the desktop is a multiuser windows system and you boot it with your flashdrive, now you have access to all users' data. Any employer that allows this has either taken steps to mitigate the security risk or is entirely unaware of it.
52 • @49, false accusations and Q4 (by RJA on 2019-08-13 17:47:16 GMT from United States)
Back over at the Vermont Achievement Center school in Rutland, Vermont, (fall, 1988, IIRC, to July 5, 1994) which had mostly Apple IIs, (the school had Apple IIes as well) I likely would get away with bringing games over to play on Apple IIs. ;) But I was a computer dummy, I only knew how to insert a floppy and hit that switch on an Apple II, and occasionally an Apple III there, IIRC and wait.
The Vermont Achievement Center is in the city, and the better school, was ironically in the boonies, LOL.
Crotched Mountain Rehabilitation Center, over in Greenfield, New Hampshire,(July 5, 1994 to November 11, 2002) is in the boonies, but I got a better experience, albeit was falsely accused in hacking in the later-1990s, but was allowed back on their PCs by the very-late-1990s, haha.
I was falsely accused of hacking by people who think they know a lot about computers, but definitely didn't! I was falsely accused of hacking, because I was a Windows rookie and accidentally deleted Novell Netware support stuff on just one PC, IIRC. But there was an obviously false rumor of me causing their network to go down! I of course said that I was sorry, but they didn't want to believe me! It was only the group home PC of the one I lived in. This was DOS and Windows 3.1, folks! (Probably MS-DOS 6x)
Glad to see talk about Q4, because of the Trinity desktop, I was afraid that there wouldn't be a Trinity anymore. Thumbs up from me, for the low, Windows XP x64 Edition-like 200-something MB-of-RAM at the desktop.
---RJA
53 • @ 48 Fragmentation (by akoy on 2019-08-13 18:41:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
The problem is not with Chromebook or Chrome OS, or their developers. They are doing well, because they are delivering a device(s) with a compatible OS to run it. The kernel is not the main point there, but the OS surrounding it. That OS is created to run on specially produced devices, using a different processor than the GNU OS on Linux kernel.
There aren't dedicated devices created to run the GNU/Linux. That's the problem. We run these distros on devices that are created to run the Windows OS. No computer manufacturer would spend resources to make devices for an OS platform that is utterly fragmented. That's the problem.
People buy devices, not an OS. They buy devices that run applications they need, or would need. Ready to go, at any time. So, came Android, and Chrome OS/book. The developers didn't run around advertising a kernel. Windows has a kernel, but very few geeky people only knows its name. The normal users don't need to know, or care. The same with iOS, Mac OS. They both have kernels, but how many iPhone, iPad, Macbook users know about that? How many cares?
The fragmentation wouldn't allow the "Linux" distros to become the desktop operating system of the masses. It stays at the hobbyist level. The "Linux" community is quite volatile, they go against each other, wasting energy. It is easy to create for a unified OS -- Windows, iOS, MacOS, Android, Chrome OS. We have debs, rpms and whatnot. And now, flatpaks, snaps and whatnot. Even that is fragmented. No unity, no success!
54 • Chrome OS (by Angel on 2019-08-13 23:19:23 GMT from Philippines)
There seem to be some misconceptions about Chrome OS.
Don't know how success would be measured, but as of now it is mainly a North American phenomenon with negligible numbers elsewhere. Almost nonexistent in Asia: .06%.
While Chromebooks are locked down by default to run only a Google approved OS, they have no special hardware, just Intel or Arm CPUs.
Chrome OS is quite limited, useful mostly online with the Chrome browser.
It's been quite possible for a while now to run Linux on Chromebooks using Crouton. Linux can also be installed in other ways such as:
https://wiki.galliumos.org/Installing
It is possible to download and install Chromium OS on many laptops. There is even a VMware OVA ready for download.
https://www.neverware.com/#intro
Google is certainly aware of the OS limitation and is making it possible to run Android apss, and although it's beta as of now, also Linux apps. https://www.zdnet.com/article/all-chromebooks-will-also-be-linux-laptops-going-forward/
55 • No success? (by Tim on 2019-08-14 01:39:11 GMT from United States)
@54
Your summary is quite accurate. The reason for the US success I think is that there's been a major push here to find a silver bullet to "fix" education and one on one tech is one fixation policy makers have. Chromebooks work better than anything else for large scale deployments.
I'd point out one thing about Crouton... you're not installing Linux but rather a Debian, Ubuntu, or Kali environment to run in a chroot. So it becomes a Chrome OS/ GNU Linux hybrid.
@53
This idea that Linux will never be successful unless we unify keeps recirculating week after week here and I don't get it. Linux is plenty successful. It's everywhere on everything except the desktop. I wish more people would discover how great it is on the desktop, but the only way it would be skin off my back that they don't is if the Linux desktop started to fade. Based on the extremely high quality of recent releases I don't see that happening. I certainly don't think forcing the diverse community using GNU/Linux to pick one way of doing things is the solution.
By the way, there are plenty of GNU/Linux only devices. The Raspberry Pi for example.
56 • Success? (by OstroL on 2019-08-14 07:32:03 GMT from Poland)
@54 Chromebooks
Not available in the shops here. At the beginning, some of them were here, but not any more. There are secondhand ones in some portals, but they are quite old ones. Can buy, but what the use? Too old. Not many people care to import even, for everything that comes with it can be found in a web browser, even in Windows.
@55 Linux desktops/laptops etc
No one in my area appears to have one, except some I installed a distro in their Windows laptop. But, even they are not using it. But, nearly everyone is using an Android device, mostly smartphones. You can buy them damn cheap, even brand new. (I bought a newest Samsung at 62% its shop price in an unpacked box a month ago.) There are many Android smartphones in homes here, at least one per person, even very young children. But, none of them know about the kernel the OS is based on, or even about an OS. All they know, and interested in is the UI and the apps, mostly social apps.
Practically, every household has a laptop, even where the older people live. Some still have desktops, and even still with XP!
Maybe, some young chap would care to play with a Raspberry Pi, but they are expensive than a tablet. Even though tablets are going out of fashion, they are still useful and those Samsungs with DEX are quite interesting. Actually, I have one, bought cheap just like the phone. Lovely thing with four speakers. I can get everything done with a Chromebook and more with it. For one week, I could get my work done with it, without using my Linux box.
57 • Market (by Tim on 2019-08-14 10:33:16 GMT from United States)
I've lived a couple of different places in the US, and the mix here isn't much different. iOS is a bit more common than Android. Mostly that seems to be because Apple supports older phones for much longer. In my 10+ years in the classroom I can think of 3 kids who wanted to talk to me about Linux. For about half my career there have been two Linux computers in the room to run the open source physics program Tracker, so every kid was using the MATE desktop on either Debian or Ubuntu. The rest had no trouble at all, it's just as @53 said, most people don't think of operating systems, they think of devices.
Where I differ from others here is that I don't think there's any doom and gloom to this. With Linux powering so many non-desktop computers, it's not going away, so low market share doesn't really affect me. I don't understand why more people don't use it. It blows my mind when a Windows 10 user says MATE or XFCE looks "dated." What's modern, having advertising in your start menu? But we're not going to get more people to use Linux by saying it's fading away. Especially when what's on offer is high quality, diverse, and free.
My only point in bringing up the Chromebook was that there's now been two major operating systems that have seen enormous success and at least one is binary compatible with Linux. Linux for the masses might not look like the Linux you or I or someone else enjoy using. But it's still a strength of Linux that I can use the kind I like and you can use the kind you like and no one is forcing us to do anything.
58 • @ 57 (by OstroL on 2019-08-14 11:05:04 GMT from Poland)
It is true that MATE or XFCE looks dated. Even Plasma with all the blink looks Windows 7ish, so would look dated to a Windows 10 user. I've been using XFCE for ages, so I am used to it's look, but but for newcomers...
Red Hat sold itself, after so long in the business. That says something. Cannonical placing its interest on IoT devices, leaving the desktop to some still keen mostly community developers. Ubuntu Budgie, Ubuntu Mate, Lubuntu etc are just one-man projects now. The former niche distro #! developer first went to Windows 10, and then left to iOS, MacOS, staying away from the Linux world. The creator of Budgie DE suddenly left, leaving his product and Solus. All this tells something.
Linux is just a kernel. The operating systems are built around it. The GNU OS appears to losing the interest of the developers as a desktop operating system. Also one needs to have a repo for the app packages to be stored, and that costs a lot. Only profitable companies, or well supported financially communities can do that. The financial support comes, only if there's return, a monetary profit. The desktop users, the free ones, won't bring in that money. The psychological profit isn't enough.
59 • @57 OstroL: (by dragonmouth on 2019-08-14 11:47:28 GMT from United States)
What does "modern" mean? Does bling, glitz and eye candy make the computer more secure? Do they make the computer run faster? On the contrary, eye candy slows the computer down without providing any additional functionality. All bling, glitz and eye candy do is make the display look like something designed for a 4 year old. It is definitely form over function.
60 • Which command (by far2fish on 2019-08-14 11:50:50 GMT from Norway)
To my knowledge, the which command is only suitable of finding files on Linux if the file you are looking for is in PATH
If you got two files with the same name, and both are in the PATH, the which will report the first one as far as I am aware.
61 • fd > find (by Teresa e Junior on 2019-08-14 12:13:06 GMT from Brazil)
fd is a lot better than find (faster, supports color, easier CLI option). I also use fzf for completing file names!
62 • @59 (by OstroL on 2019-08-14 13:42:21 GMT from Poland)
One can, of course, stay without all kinds of bling, but the world likes bling and eye candy. Just ask any woman to go without a makeup and see. Or, to wear some old fashioned worn out clothes.
Back to topic The kernel can be top of the class, but there should be an OS to run apps people want on a device that is "nice and modern." The GNU OS doesn't have such devices. Hand helds, desktops, laptops, tablets etc. The Android or Chrome OS has quite a lot of such devices. All 3 OSs run on top of the Linux kernel.
When we say Linux distros, we think only about the GNU OS, not about the other 2. We consider the other 2 as alien. Only, those 2 didn't go around shouting Linux, Linux, but went on developing in such a way, so the device manufacturers compete at creating more and more devices. Those 2 OSs are successful, but the GNU OS on desktops, on devices. That's the problem.
63 • @51: Live Desktops and User Data (by Marco on 2019-08-14 16:31:10 GMT from United States)
@ 51
> @49
> The distinction between booting a live desktop and bringing your own device should
> be pretty obvious. Everywhere I've worked with BYOD, you've gotten network access
> through a dedicated network, with limited access to network resources. Desktops had
> much more access. Also, if the desktop is a multiuser windows system and you boot
> it with your flashdrive, now you have access to all users' data. Any employer that
> allows this has either taken steps to mitigate the security risk or is entirely unaware of it.
It has been many years since I have seen a business desktop or laptop without an encrypted hard drive. When I used a live USB on my work machine, I was able to boot to live desktop, and I could see the drive itself, but I could not read the drive because it was encrypted with Symantec with some kind of pre-boot hook. Today, it seems the default choice for IT is now BitLocker instead, but I assume that secure boot, and locked-down BIOS/UEFI make user data even harder to read via a live USB than it was then.
64 • @60 which (by greenpossum on 2019-08-15 00:25:19 GMT from Australia)
>If you got two files with the same name, and both are in the PATH, the which will report the first one as far as I am aware.
Which is why you use which -a when you want to see all the hits.
65 • Reason(s) for GNU/{kernel} "failure" (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2019-08-15 02:06:45 GMT from United States)
Much of the GNU/{kernel} operating system is licensed in a way that prevents contributors from being compensated for their contribution over the useful life thereof, as contrasted with proprietary licensing that encourages monopoly and discourages development the longer it serves.
A robust marketplace will never result from either extreme.
Standards or "unity" won't change this.
-----
Freedom isn't free, even in Open-Source software. Or hardware.
For that matter, the Internet was never free - it was "ad-supported".
People don't buy operating systems or software or "devices", they buy tools and services so they can more effectively perform tasks and enjoy services.
66 • GNU failure...? (by akoy on 2019-08-15 07:39:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
This a quote from a games developer.
>> Of all my users, the amount of people using Linux is not even a rounding error. If i had to lift an extra finger to support linux, well, financially it would not be worth it. That is the sad reality.
Supporting linux is not as easy as you might think. Sure, you flip a switch in unity or unreal and it spits out a linux binary. But then what? How do you distribute the software? There is no app store. How do you let users know when there is an update? How do you charge for in app purchases? How do you authenticate users? Im sure you can find solutions to these, but can you find ones that work across distros? Do users have to download other stuff such as steam client? Do you need to integrate 3rd party API with your game? Distribution is really painful.
Of all my users, the amount of people using Linux is not even a rounding error. If i had to lift an extra finger to support linux, well, financially it would not be worth it. That is the sad reality.
Every linux specific bug (and believe me, there are many) will have a disproportionately low ROI. So many studios will just dismiss linux support as “not worth it".<<
That tells something, doesn't it?
But, thousands of developers are creating apps for other OSs based on the Linux kernel.
Maybe time to say GNU OS distros, rather than Linux distros?! The other Linux kernel based OSs are much more successful than the GNU ones.
67 • Gnu, desktop failure? (by Angel on 2019-08-15 11:06:26 GMT from Philippines)
This horse is long dead. Why continue flogging? If you define success by market share, Gnu/Linux is a failure. There is no money in desktop Linux.
On the other hand, there are millions around the world using and enjoying Gnu/Linux, myself included. There are many thousands creating and releasing distros and applications for our use and enjoyment. Several desktops provide functionality and looks equal to or superior to the mainline OSes. Yes, we don't have all the apps, games, etc. We never will, as it stands, due to licensing, among other things. So what? If the McDonald's brothers had opted, as they wanted to just run a few fast food stands, and if some of those were still being run by their heirs, would they be a failure? Instead, they sold out to Ray Kroc, so today, if McDonald's doesn't open new franchises and increase sales enough, their shares will tank. If their sales decrease enough, they may just fail, never mind how may billion hamburgers sold.
Google found a way to monetize.the Linux kernel. Unlike Apple, Google's products are not the OSes, or the devices that run them. Google's product is the user, which product they then sell to advertisers. Googles makes money, developers make money, advertisers make money. Android, by numbers, is a huge success. Chrome OS not so much. Other than from a top-down push in American schools, Chrome Os's numbers, regardless of the cheap devices, lag behind Gnu/Linux. In a commercial venture where success is predicated on numbers, that is a failure. Which is why Google is adding Android and Linux apps and capabilities.
Here's to diversity and Gnu/Linux success, and screw the numbers.
68 • @67 (by Pierre on 2019-08-15 11:54:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
"If you define success by market share, Gnu/Linux is a failure. There is no money in desktop Linux. "
Yes. Even the developers know that. They slowly but surely move to other areas to get the paycheck.
"Google found a way to monetize.the Linux kernel."
Sure, it is still being used. But, Google developing their own kernel Zircon. If not that, it'd be another one, their own, and open source.
"Google's products are not the OSes, or the devices that run them. Google's product is the user, which product they then sell to advertisers."
The baker's products are not bread, buns and so on, but the users. If they are not there, he'd have to eat all his "products." The humans are always the product.
Attacking Google doesn't help. Even DWW needs Google to stay alive.
GNU OS actually wanted to use another kernel, a microkernel Hurd, and still does. Only the lack of money is holding its development. Hope one day GNU/Hurd would come through. GNU/Linux as a desktop is slowly dying.
69 • @68, slow death (by Angel on 2019-08-15 12:37:15 GMT from Philippines)
"Attacking Google doesn't help." Who's attacking Google? I use Google daily and find it incredibly useful. Matter of fact, I am right now using Chrome browser. But the baker makes money from the bread and buns, he does not give them at no charge so you will go to his store to talk to people who want to sell you something else. Google does not make money from the OSes or devices or the browser. They make money from selling advertisers access to your information. It's not a judgment. It's a fact.
"They slowly but surely move to other areas to get the paycheck." I expect that most developers don't have to move somewhere to get a paycheck. They already were getting a paycheck somewhere. Average annual salary for Linux developers in the US: $110,000
"Google developing their own kernel Zircon." And that is relevant because?
"GNU/Linux as a desktop is slowly dying." Linux worldwide desktop market share July 2009: .76, July 2014: 1.37, July 2019: 1.65
By the way, all his information can be found by using Google.
70 • @ 68 (by OstroL on 2019-08-15 14:11:50 GMT from Poland)
>> "Google developing their own kernel Zircon." And that is relevant because?
Because, we might see another operating system based on a different kernel than what we have today. Right now, there are many devices that run Android (based on Linux) made by umpteen amount of manufacturers. That OS became a success within 10 years, pushing out a giant in the OS industry. Samsung has DeX, which gives a desktop experience, using Android. All these manufacturers never speak about the kernel, but about the latest device(s) that runs the latest Android.
With Zircon, Fuchsia would come, and we'd have another device/OS revolution. Maybe, it'd come for desktops too, and if Google do that, that OS giant might have a real problem.
Btw, I don't mind ads, and I don't care, even if the ads are "matched to my needs." I don't mind Google earning money, lots of it, if it knows how to do that. I am not envious.
71 • What will replace GNU/Linux in time? (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2019-08-15 14:38:18 GMT from United States)
Android/Linux is not GNU/{kernel}.
Monolithic from the start (to cope with hardware speed issues), the Linux kernel has always needed the discipline imposed by Linus. Once that discipline was eroded and undermined, the exponential increase of proprietary influence strangled what little Freedom remained.
Android/Linux only allows "freedom" at the whim of Google - how long will that last?
Are academic projects like ReactOS and Haiku likely to reach Production in time?
…
Imagine a robust secure real-time-capable GNU/{µkernel} operating system Freed to the community (by, say, Huawei?) … maybe under something like GPLv2?
72 • @71 (by OstroL on 2019-08-15 15:21:32 GMT from Poland)
I have a Nexus 6 that runs Colt OS, made by community developers. Runs Android Pie. If I want I can do without Play Store. But, I install Gapps, for I like and use Gmail, Google, Maps etc. Nexus 6 was made by Motorola for Google, but is now aftermarket device. This excellent Colt OS was made from Google's AOSP. The nice developers would keep that device alive for quite a while, maybe even moving to Android 10. Maybe some day, when Fuchsia would come in, they might even make a Fuchsia based OS for it. I do hope that Fuchsia would come in next few years, sooner the better.
73 • More death of Linux, relevance (by Angel on 2019-08-15 15:28:01 GMT from Philippines)
@71-"the Linux kernel has always needed the discipline imposed by Linus" Linus doesn't care. See it from the source:
.https://www.reddit.com/r/chromeos/comments/a62cqq/linus_torvalds_speaks_about_chrome_os_potentially/
"Imagine a robust secure real-time-capable GNU/{µkernel} operating system Freed to the community (by, say, Huawei?)" -Whatever turns you on.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/huawei-technicians-helped-african-governments-spy-on-political-opponents-11565793017?mod=e2tw
@70 -(Relevant) "Because, we might see another operating system based on a different kernel than what we have today." We might see a lot of things we haven't seen, which still has no relevance as to whether desktop Linux is a success or a failure, or Android or Chrome OS, for that matter.
74 • Monetizing Linux. It's not a morality sermon. (by Angel on 2019-08-15 16:10:11 GMT from Philippines)
"I don't mind Google earning money, lots of it, if it knows how to do that." Neither do I. The point is that Google found a way to make money from Linux by giving it away and profiting from selling user info to advertisers. I don't know why saying that is taken as an attack. It's what Google does. Other people have found ways to monetize the kernel, in gadgets, the cloud, IoT, etc., even supercomputers, by selling said gadgets, or services.
Making money from the Gnu/Linux desktop is another matter. Remember when Canonical tried feeding search results from the web on the desktop and gathering information from users. Trying to make money, the horror! Shuttleworth became the devil incarnate. Someone tried charging a fee for a rescue disk, and got crucified in all the comments sections. So Gnu/Linux remains fragmented, and used in a small percentage of desktops, mostly given away free, and developed mostly by people who have day jobs. Maybe that is its place in the world, and it's useless wish-mongering wanting it to be something else.
75 • @ 75 (by OstroL on 2019-08-15 16:42:06 GMT from Poland)
Leave how Google makes money out of this, for it doesn't create any GNU/Linux distros/OSs. But, it makes an OS based on Linux kernel (yet), and that is the OS that is successful. Practically everyone around us carries device that runs it. But, it is not considered as a Linux device, or the OS in it as a Linux distro, but an Android.
That is the Linux "distro" that had become successful. I can run many "desktop" apps in it, not needing a desktop computer as such, as an "ordinary" user. That device is a hand held computer anyway.
But, what we usually call as Linux distro has another OS around the kernel, and the kernel is only Linux in it. That OS is losing ground, the GNU OS. I've been using this "Linux" for nearly 2 decades, so I know how it grew, and/or how it is losing.
One needs a specialised computer, if one needs specialised apps to run, AutoCad, ArchiCad and such like. But for day to day needs of a normal user, a hand held computer is quite enough. Word editing, image editing even video editing is available in the net, so an installed app is not needed. Systems like Samsung DeX brings the "desktop" to the hand held device. One can even use one's massive TV as the desktop screen. The world is changing.
So, Zircon should arrive, Fuchsia too.
76 • Red Hat and "Monetizing Linux" (by cykodrone on 2019-08-15 17:00:57 GMT from Canada)
I wonder how things are going at Red Hat since the IBM buyout?
In FOSS, the 'F' stands for free, but if you feel something has been helpful to you, or good, you can always make a donation to the app developer or distro like I have. But no, I don't agree with sneaky underhanded ways of making money from it. Android is so toxic right now, I wouldn't touch it with your 10' pole.
Any news on the PCLOS leader?
77 • @ 77 (by akoy on 2019-08-15 17:13:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Android is so toxic right now, I wouldn't touch it with your 10' pole."
So, you are an iPhone user?
78 • @77 (by future free on 2019-08-15 17:51:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Android is so toxic right now, I wouldn't touch it with your 10' pole."
I'm sure 10% of computing-units users are with you. 90% not.
Future of computing:
- Something like "DeX brings the "desktop" to the hand held device" since millions already own hand held devices.
- Some hand held device given to everybody for free. (The 90% don't care what kernel or OS is on their device, as long as can do what they want.
I even wander if IOS and Gnu/Linux developers and/or hardcore fanboys really care for their preferred OS to become mainstream, since then they'll be a special elite/elitist group no more...
79 • Fair Profit & Open Source (by M.Z. on 2019-08-15 22:47:02 GMT from United States)
The topic of open source & fair profit is an important topic to me because I think there should be room for both software freedom/openness and fair profit. In fact it seems to me the Linux ecosystem would die if it weren't for a revenue stream that was more reliable than donations.
---------------
@74
"Remember when Canonical tried feeding search results from the web on the desktop and gathering information from users."
Yes, because they did it in a very unethical way, namely they weren't entirely upfront with users on how they were trying to make a profit & were instead saying something about 'it's free because it's open source' on their website. They had the option of simply stating their revenue stream during install or setup & presenting the off switch they built in, but they instead decided to rely on a combination of indifference, gullibility, & good will toward open source. I agree with the GPL creator RMS that it was indeed spyware because some users were surly unaware of what was going on. I disagree with him that there was no room for the feature whatsoever, because I think the reality of their revenue stream could have been presented to all users on the system in something akin to the first run greeter used by several distros. They did it the wrong way & there is no good defense for how they handled it, including the ethical sewer that is Google & their profit stream.
---------------
If you want to see advertising done right using open source tech I'd point you too DuckDuckGo, who has a no tracking policy, runs everything on BSD, & seems to be giving back to the open source community. I believe they have some sort of revenue deal with Mint & some other projects, and they state that they give to projects they use like FreeBSD.
Another more direct Linux example, although more controversial, is probably Red Hat who generate & give away open code while providing Linux & related services as a subscription to a huge number of major companies around the world. The attacks against them seem truly unjustified to me & amount to either 'I don't trust corporations making profit' or 'I don't trust code from [insert offending project] they gave away as GPL', and while those are weak arguments the other charges amount to silly paranoia. I do think some of the projects Red Hat supports have issues, but on the whole I think they have been very good for Linux & I hope that continues now that they are under IBM.
At any rate I for one believe that there is room for fair profit in open source software & I don't think we need to apologize for saying for that unethical behavior deserves to be called out or for the fact that it has been on occasion within the opens source community. No amount of 'what-about-isms' justify bad behavior (i.e. see someone get stabbed for a wallet before you picked a pocket doesn't make you a better person), so what Google is doing to track users justifies nothing. What we need much more than excuses is open projects looking for batter ways to generate a fair profit while giving back to open source.
80 • What? (by Tim on 2019-08-16 01:53:00 GMT from United States)
I have to ask... What is it all y'all want?
Most GNU/Linux distributions ship primarily free speech software and completely free beer software. Because of this, people have freedom.
Are you looking for the Linux police to come and tell everyone to do something one way? According to the GPL there are no Linux police. The diversity in Linux isn't "fragmentation," it's everyone doing what they want to do.
People who make their money selling non-free software are not going to like this model. That's their right. But those of us who use GNU/Linux do like this model, and telling us we need to unify or become irrelevant is getting tiresome. My choice of software does not affect you. I can't tell you what to use. We both have choice, and that's how I like it. You'd have a point if there was some sort of decline in desktop GNU/Linux happening. I have no evidence that is the case.
I strongly suspect everyone suggesting we must unify really means "I want everyone use Linux the way I do." That's what the hatred of Chrome OS, or GNOME Shell, or Plasma , or even systemd really is. People are doing things different from me so therefore they're wrong. With that logic every commercially successful fork of Linux will be an abomination because it's not the way I do things.
It's really ok. Enjoy your free speech and free beer and stop worrying Linux is dying. It isn't. Even if the focus isn't the desktop, great desktops are still being packaged. We're going to be fine. At the very least Debian Buster LTS will get us to 2024, right?
81 • Fair profit and so on (by Pierre on 2019-08-16 08:22:15 GMT from France)
Nothing in this world is done for free, even though some say so. There is some profit some way, big or small. "Philanthropy" too is not free -- you get perks, for example, such as no tax.
Cannonical created Ubuntu spending the company money, or private money. It still have to make a profit. The freeloaders won't bring in money, even if they are in millions (once there were millions). Cannonical had to know, how many freeloaders are there, so the ping back. You just can't use something free, without giving back anything. People buy from Amazon, but the freeloaders get angry, when an Amazon app is there, and Cannonical earned some money out of it. Mint does it openly from Yahoo, but none of the Mint users disagree. But, oh no, Cannonical is stealing our data. They didn't, but the hullabaloo was so great, Cannonical stopped getting interested in the desktop. Lot of distributions, the main ones and the remixes, go that way, as there's no money in feeding the freeloader.
Oh, the ads are troubling the freeloader. But hey, everything troubles the freeloader. If you pay, you can complain, but when you get it free?
By the way, the freeloader doesn't get the computer free. He pays lot of money for the state of art laptop/computer, but don't want to pay for the fuel that runs it. RMS's ideas/thoughts dont match the real world, where you simply have to pay for the bread you eat. If you pay, you'd treat the product with respect. That's why millions of Windows users, Apple users, Android uers don't complain. (Some do, but there are always some...everywhere...) You can always ask help, and you get it, for your product is paid for. If Cannonical went that way, sometime later, created their own devices, and stayed with it, it would still be the most used device+OS today. Freeloaders don't keep anything going. They only take, and know only how to take.
Someone might say, I donate, but just donating doesn't help. Donaters just go away, after sometime. Those, who pay and buy stay on, or buy another. You pay, you respect. Freeloaders? Complain!
82 • Quick search with Dolphin and Advanced search with KFind (by Flavio on 2019-08-16 14:53:50 GMT from Brazil)
Even if sometimes I use Find, Locate, Whereis and other commands, mostly to search system files, it is not practical when you need to preview Photos, Screenshots, PDFs, TXTs and other filetypes.
CTRL+F within Dolphin is really useful, either to quickly find any file by names or by contents.
Note that it doesn't depend on KDE-PIM, nor Baloo_file. It just works.
And KFind finds any file by name, by date or range of dates, by owner, by properties or by any criteria mix.
83 • Developers Profit (by Freeloader on 2019-08-16 16:28:28 GMT from France)
"the freeloader doesn't get the computer free. He pays lot of money for the state of art laptop/computer"
Well, actually, I didn't pay a dime for my computers, and I'll never will. All are "salvaged" from trash and I run Linux because my machines are, obviously low specs.
Yeah, nothing in this world is for free, and no one will get hate gratuitously.
Google wants to track and show me adds? Okay, they are free to waist their resource on me, I don't mind that. What I mind is that they try to force me to use the language and other staff specific to the region I am at that time. Why would I want that? Actually why Google tries to -discriminate- people based on the region where they live on? I think that's cybernetic "racism". I'm not complaining, just pointing a fact.
The horrible truth is that Google is the best search engine out-there, non of the others are even close (I try all the time). Once a better search engine appear, I'll be gone... but I'm not holding my breath...
84 • Q4OS 3.8 - The Windows XP Clone (by Niyas C on 2019-08-16 17:08:13 GMT from Singapore)
I was always curious about Q4OS as it closely resembles Windows XP. After reading your review, I downloaded it and explored.
One of the unique thing in Q4OS is Windows like installation wizard for popular applications.
85 • @80 Tim: (by dragonmouth on 2019-08-16 17:14:54 GMT from United States)
"telling us we need to unify"
Not unify, just quit splintering. Out of the 288 active distros, how many are actually unique and how many are only different in cosmetics and some apps?
" The diversity in Linux isn't "fragmentation," it's everyone doing what they want to do."
One word for "everyone doing whatever they want to do" is "freedom" but another is "anarchy". Anarchy is frowned upon in all other areas of human endeavor but it is embraced, even worn as a badge of honor, in the Linux community.
"We both have choice"
You speak out of both sides of your mouth. Yes, we have a choice of any of the 288 active distros in the DW database. However, the choice of the init system we can use, for example, is being narrowed down by the day as more and more distros adopt systemd. Why allow fragmentation/anarchy/freedom in one area but enforce conformity in another? Isn't systemd an example of "I want everyone use Linux the way I do."?
Number of Comments: 85
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