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1 • DIY Router (by Ken on 2019-07-15 00:33:00 GMT from United States)
Around 5ish years ago I bought an ASRock ITX mainboard with an AMD 5350 and 4GB, used a 2nd network card I had lying around and an old 80GB HDD, put on IPFire and haven't looked back. It's been great with expansive features. I'd recommend anyone capable of building their own in some way, great way to learn and keep control of your network. DIY Routers need some more attention since they have been so great to me.
2 • Debian and Newness of Packages (by User on 2019-07-15 01:12:18 GMT from United States)
I don't think it's fair to repeatedly criticize Debian for having older versions of programs in a review without even mentioning the easy option of enabling the Testing repositories. Although Testing is not officially recommended, it is more stable in my experience than the stable branches of other distros. I have run it as my daily machine for all my professional needs without any problems at all for over a year now.
I also think the warnings away from Debian for newcomers are overstated---there are a few hurdles to overcome (like learning how to edit sources.list and enabling encrypted DVD support), but these are relatively easy to do with hundreds of internet sites guiding the way (HUGE user base), and after that it is smooth sailing and just as easy to maintain as any other distro.
The lack of explanation of how to get non-free components is a serious flaw that will confuse newcomers, and could be fixed with a simple pop-up on first startup explaining why Debian only endorses free software and how to enable the non-free repository.
3 • Debian (by Jon Wright on 2019-07-15 01:15:33 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
Debian review much appreciated. I think I'll install, might even try GNOME.
I like how you go into the history and the metrics around the project - Debian distinguishes itself here, along with the excellent infrastructure. I think you should give an outline like this for all distros you review. BTW a shame Debian isn't reproducible yet, but they're certainly trying.
4 • poll (by MikeOh Shark on 2019-07-15 01:18:58 GMT from Netherlands)
I don't run a separate machine as firewall but I do run iptables and have all Internet facing apps in their own firejails. My router keeps me fairly secure and I rarely take my laptop to other networks but it's good to practice with iptables and I will be ready if I decide to go outside of my network.
IPFire is interesting but I don't see a need at this time.
5 • Debian (by Carlos Felipe on 2019-07-15 02:09:21 GMT from Brazil)
Every day is easier to install and use Debian, but the option auto login (calamares) doesn't work. I would see a tool to config lightdm and set auto login graphically.
6 • DIY router (by greenpossum on 2019-07-15 04:19:56 GMT from Australia)
Do you consider an off the shelf router flashed with DD-WRT a DIY router? I used to have an ancient PC running IPCop (so long ago I had to look up the name) but decided I couldn't justify the power consumption and space so went with an embedded solution which does all I need.
7 • Debian multimedia (by eco2geek on 2019-07-15 04:25:18 GMT from Romania)
Given Debian's emphasis on free software, new users of Debian might wonder if there's a site which provides non-free multimedia codecs and applications. The answer is yes, it's at
https://deb-multimedia.org/
and has been updated for Buster. The site explains how to enable the repository and how to add the keyring.
8 • Debian 10 non-free (by corcaigher on 2019-07-15 05:02:01 GMT from United States)
"People who need wireless networking have the option of downloading unofficial live images with non-free firmware." Well I tried the non-free version, it did not help. Still had no access to wi-fi services using either the internal broadcom, or an edimax usb with rtl8812 support. And there is no easy way to communicate problems back to the development team, especially at debian! I don't know about anyone else but I am no longer willing jump through hoops to get peripherals working with new linux releases. It is bizarre the steps required to get those cards working. You really need to know what you are doing before delving into compiling drivers. I have technical knowledge and have compiled code in the past. More often than not I have encountered dependency issues which cannot be resolved. This is very frustrating and off-putting.
The broadcom issue has been allowed to continue for far too long. I can understand the edimax not working out of box as it is a relatively new device. These types of issues are what holds linux back. Warn users before they waste their time and effort, especially when the distro doesn't mention third-party or non-free drivers and software which may be required.
I have been using linux for over 15 years, relying on linux mint for the last 10 years. But linux mint dropped support for kde with verson 19. I really do not care for the gnome, cinnamon, mate, xfce desktops.
That's my gripe, pardon my ranting.
9 • Debian auto login (by Bob on 2019-07-15 05:02:41 GMT from United States)
@5 I just installed 10 xfce and had this same problem and fixed it. You have to edit the lightdm.conf:
autologin-user=YOURUSERNAME
autologin-user-timeout=0
autologin-session=DESKTOP_SESSION
For more details, do a web search for: debian set auto login
10 • "Debian is one of the world's oldest Linux distributions ... " (by Greg Zeng on 2019-07-15 05:39:16 GMT from Australia)
This week's Debian review has aroused so much debate already. Like RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux), Debian must retain its freedom from unusual copyright software, including the binary bits that can easily create international legal trouble.
Both bare bones foundation operating systems are used as the source for many derivative operating systems. According to Distrowatch's search database, the derived systems are the 129 Debian-based and another 6 Red Hat based. There are about 252 "living" Linux operating systems, so about half of them are based on the three Debian operating systems (Stable, Testing & Unstable). The RPM-based operating systems are far bigger than the Distrowatch data-base search engine shows, but that is another topic.
This week's review starts with:
> "Debian is one of the world's oldest Linux distributions ... ".
Of the "living" operating systems, we should be able to be more definite on the oldest, and the order that follows. Debate on this (with url references) should be done by Wikipedia editors, where I have recently resumed that debating editorial role. The Linux from scratch (CLI source code compilation) should be the oldest. The GUI installation (Graphical User Interface), running & administration means no more need for RTFM (read the flaming manual) rudeness.
These WIMP interfaces (Windows, Icons, Mouse, Pointers) allows users to concentrate on the application, instead of the operating system. When Linux finally stays GUI, instead of CLI, then Linux will be able to move into the user friendliness valued by Apple & Microsoft Windows. WIMP was a Xerox PARC invention, which both Apple & Windows "borrowed".
GUI is now under continuous re-definition. It now includes historical and anticipated AI (artificial intelligence). User biofeedback sensors are now included into this AI, such as the bluetooth Fitbit-type of sensors.
Apple & Windows are trying to include these re-definitions of GUI. Debian and its team of official & unofficial developers have yet to try these new definitions of GUI.
11 • Installing Debian (by debiangamer on 2019-07-15 05:46:59 GMT from Finland)
Use Debian testing/Sid to have fresh versions of software. Stability of the stable version is a myth, years old software do have many bugs and you can break the stable version with testing, Sid and experimental packages that you can use with the testing/Sid version.
https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
You can find link to the firmware files from the above link too.
Use the Padoka mesa master ppa bionic version for latest open source graphics drivers, google ppas in Debian. Use a custom non debug 1000Hz timer kernel to speed up your system, google
Installing Debian testing Xfce and Amdgpu drivers
12 • Debian 10 (by Roy on 2019-07-15 05:57:49 GMT from United States)
Awesome! Does anyone remember Utnubu? Ubuntu sending back to Debian. I think there was some of that going on with regards to Buster. I downloaded the 2.3 GB version of Gnome, too. Then noticed you mentioning there was a Classic, too. That last UbuntuMate 19.04 seemed so different and more like Gnome 3.0 that I wonder what Debian MATE might look like. I liked the picture portion of Gnome Classic that you showed. I didn't notice Synaptic in Graphics & Photography in Gnome 3.30. I like the extra kernel that is normal for Ubuntu. In Software and Updates it lets do the extra stuff and even development for future updates. Yup. I think Utnubu is still alive.
13 • "in terms of the number of developers involved, also one of the largest" (by Greg Zeng on 2019-07-15 06:35:56 GMT from Australia)
As the Distrowatch search engine shows: there are about 252 "living" Linux operating systems, so about half of them are based on the three Debian operating systems (Stable, Testing & Unstable).
The three official Debian engines have a large number of officially recognised coders. The other teams of coding developers for the Debian engine comes from those 120+ operating systems based on Debian. Some of these Debian-based coding teams are very large. The biggest teams are probably Ubuntu, then Mint. Each team is further grouped into Desktop Environments (DE).
These Debian-based coding teams have created many Linux innovations. But all Linux teams still retain their fear of being too friendly of the WIMP interface (windows, icons, menus, pointer) pioneered by Xerox. All these fearful Linux development teams are so code-focused (alphanumerics) that they have yet to use the new biometric definitions of GUI.
These new GUI definitions include Fitbit-type of sensors, AI sensors, etc. Android is the only open source version of Linux that might be able to eventually be added to mainstream Linux.
It is not the NUMBERS of coding engineers that counts, nor the UNIFICATION of code of these large numbers. This INFRASTRUCTURE UNIFICATION allows enormous productivity gains shown in the workings of "The Linux Foundation" (TLF). TLF is creating so many updates of the Linux kernel that the rest of the Linux world cannot keep pace. Open source Android operating systems have given up trying to use the productivity gains of TLF.
The missing third link is QUALITY of the coding teams. These alpha-numeric coding teams are shy of GUI. Current coders fear both the old & the new bio-metric definitions of GUI.
The biometrics of humans is a newly emerged science. Apple, Android & Windows-10 are now starting these development teams. Linux has yet to follow these biometric leaders. Eventually the science of human biometrics should be evolved enough to create another technology, another ISO standard. After these definitions are created, they will later then become obligatory for all "operating systems", for both digital and analog computers.
14 • DIY Router (by Marc on 2019-07-15 07:46:36 GMT from Australia)
Back in the day I ran smoothwall on an old pc, well before the new roadster builds.
Last few years I have just plugged my modem into the wall to keep number of pcs down and mrs happy lol
15 • @8 (by Microlinux on 2019-07-15 08:16:44 GMT from France)
You might want to give OpenSUSE Leap 15.1 a spin. OpenSUSE has one of the nicest and cleanest KDE implementations I've ever seen. The SUSE company has been around since 1992, so there's quite some experience under the hood. I've been a Linux user since Slackware 7.1, and I don't understand why so many major players - Fedora, Red Hat, Debian - favor GNOME over KDE.
16 • feren os (by debian user on 2019-07-15 09:44:40 GMT from Netherlands)
Feren OS is based on Mint.
Mint is based on Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is based on Debian.
Is there an os based on Feren OS????????
17 • FerenOS (by Saleem Khan on 2019-07-15 10:54:20 GMT from Pakistan)
@16 yes there is one mentioned on sourceforge called Ferient OS !
18 • Semi-DIY Routers (by cpoakes on 2019-07-15 10:55:13 GMT from United States)
I have two requirements for a router: it must 1) consume a minimum amount of power, and 2) be quiet. I run off-the-shelf router hardware with alternative firmware like dd-wrt or openwrt. This semi-DIY linux solution leverages inexpensive low-power quiet hardware. While I like repurposing old PC equipment, the power requirements and fan noise are unwanted and unnecessary. A fanless SBC solution could meet my requirements but a hell of a lot of routers are basically single board solutions. And they come with extra ports already installed with a nice housing. You'd be hard pressed to find things you can do with a headless PC or SBC running a standard distro that you cannot do with openwrt.
19 • Debian (by Jim on 2019-07-15 11:13:31 GMT from United States)
I am a pretty causal computer user and I have had not had problems installing and using Debian. I just plug my laptop into the router on a wire to download and install my Broadcomm and Qualcom drivers. Then use the Internet for tutorials on giving my user sudo privileges, and adding the non-free and contrib repositories. I am guessing if I can do it, you can too. Usually each new release will be followed by Linux tech sites having tutorials something like "10 Things To Do After Installing Debian 10 Buster".
20 • Debian and non-free (by Jeff on 2019-07-15 11:32:14 GMT from United States)
Why Debian (and so many others) makes using non-free hardware so hard is because their origins are from academic intellectuals who work for governments or private universities.
They have financial backing using other people's money to buy whatever hardware will work for the project, they submit a purchase order and it 'magically' appears.
The elitist mindset many of them have is another contributing factor.
They have no understanding of or sympathy for those out in the real world who due to budget limitations are struggling to repurpose hardware that they already own which was built with other systems in mind.
I do not expect this to change.
21 • How to see Debian (by Gerhard Goetzhaber on 2019-07-15 12:17:17 GMT from Austria)
The true role of "Debian GNU Linux" is acting as a reliable base environment for child distributions to be made upon. As it seems to me this is also the intent of Debian's maintainers as it makes clear the relatively poor furnishing of all editions delivered by themselves.
Experienced Linux users will never run into severe issues when going to enhance a stable Debian due to individual needs. Newcomers and less patient people should select e.g. Sparkylinux (very close to Debian itself and holding a quite engaged team of developers) or pick any flavour out of the crowd of Ubuntus and Ubuntoids wherein Linuxmint with it's recent beta appears being about to win the cup again.
However, as I (as already mentioned in this forum ago) often work with bleeding edge distros thus recognizing the problems and risks within them very well I must also state that Debian's stable editions - and sometimes them ONLY - should be recognized and highly regarded as an island of stability in the riled sea of Linux distros ...
22 • DebIan and non-Freed (usually proprietary) firmware (by Somewhat Reticent on 2019-07-15 12:20:46 GMT from United States)
The Debian approach to coping with exceptions to Freed Open-Source is far kinder and gentler than most Freed Open-Source distros. A little too easy, really.
Shopping for hardware that works with Freed Open-Source software and conforms to standards can be quite eye-opening, Most hardware vendors, even those who advertise Linux or BSD compatibility, suffer from the popular delusion that proprietary is somehow better.
23 • Debian review (by Jordan on 2019-07-15 12:33:38 GMT from United States)
The negative things experienced with Debian (10, 9, et al) are in my opinion the reason for so many distros based on it. Countless projects out there begin with some version of Debian and weed out the reported issues, create a steady feel across the whole experience, polish it up and voila, another of dozens of Debian children (siblings, etc).
Not to mention having non-free software right there in the iso or available via repo.
24 • Deabian 10 (by Fabio on 2019-07-15 13:25:16 GMT from Italy)
I use debian in my laptop and professional workstations starting from version 6. I have always found it very stable and reliable at least in my field of interest related to scientific field. Clearly Debian has a lot of idiosyncrasies like the one that forbid to insert non-free packages in the installation ISO. This has caused many problems and delays also to me in some cases, but can be easily overcome preparing a USB stick with the firmware-nonfree packages. This is a case in which strict rigidity coincide with "stupidity". Another problem is, by using gnome3, the strong customization that is needed to make the machine usable (with the help of the extensions and tweak tools). After it is necessary to change the icon theme (i use the papirus one) and few other aestetics because Debian does not take care of these things contrary to other distributions. But finally once you have worked for few days to these little things and few bugs, Debian gives you a solid and nice system to be used for years.
25 • @9 Debian auto login (by Carlos Felipe on 2019-07-15 13:46:04 GMT from Brazil)
Yeah, we need edit the lightdm.conf, but we are in 2019. During 25 months the debian team haven't time to developed a simple tool. I didn't like so much try MX Linux, but they care make a functional (not beautiful) distro. That's my gripe, pardon my ranting (x2).
26 • Debian package versions (by Jesse on 2019-07-15 14:23:42 GMT from Canada)
@2: "I don't think it's fair to repeatedly criticize Debian for having older versions of programs in a review without even mentioning the easy option of enabling the Testing repositories. Although Testing is not officially recommended, it is more stable in my experience than the stable branches of other distros."
There are three reasons why I would not recommend enabling Testing repositories on a new copy of Debian Stable.
1. It is not supported. If you are running Debian Stable in the first place, chances are you want predictability, support and stability. You'd be sacrificing some of these by enabling the Testing repos.
2. If you need newer versions of applications Debian supports Flatpak and Snap. This allows you to get newer versions of software without running mixed repositories. I mentioned this in the review.
3. Enabling Testing right after a new Stable release won't do anything to help you. The versions of packages in Testing are the same as in Stable when the new release comes out. The packages will remain mostly the same in both repositories for a few weeks to a month or so until new packages trickle in from Sid. This means that if I really need a new version of LibreOffice or Falkon or VLC, that enabling Testing won't help at ll for probably a month or more. Eventually new packages will show up in Testing, but it's not a solution that will work right after a new Debian release. This is why people should use portable packages instead.
27 • Debian and non-free packages (by Bobbie Sellers on 2019-07-15 15:06:07 GMT from United States)
Hi,
Well someone remarks above about the problems with inserting non-free
packages in the Debian disks but this has been done,,,
<https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/10.0.0-live+nonfree/amd64/iso-hybrid/>
Some other LUG members had to tell me about it.
bliss -- still on PCLinuxOS64 2019.?
28 • Debian wireless (by bison on 2019-07-15 15:58:29 GMT from United States)
> People who need wireless networking have the option of downloading unofficial live images with non-free firmware.
I didn't know this and tried the official image a few days ago. I had to manually configure the network, which I thought was odd, but the wireless worked after that... until I rebooted. I had to reconfigure the network on each reboot. The system would retain some information of previous network interfaces, but they would not work. So after 3 reboots I had 3 non-functioning interfaces. I decided it wasn't worth the trouble at this point, but I may try a unofficial image in the future.
29 • @8, @15 - KDE (by asKme on 2019-07-15 18:09:49 GMT from United States)
Try Mageia 7. Lovely all around.
30 • Debian auto login (by Bob on 2019-07-15 18:49:31 GMT from United States)
@25 "That's my gripe, pardon my ranting (x2)" Hey, that's OK. This is a good place to rant. :)
My thoughts are: It's Linux, it's FREE, NONE of them are perfect, and I accept the fact that sometimes I'm going to have to tweak something behind the curtain to make it better for ME. ;)
31 • @28 - Some words about free and non-free, to you as having written from U.S. (by Gerhard Goetzhaber on 2019-07-15 19:15:35 GMT from Austria)
You and some others should learn to understand that all internal discussion around software as well as belonging to hardware requiring it as somewhat drivers originates from U.S. and U.S. law! However, it's not law itself causing problems herein but the common understanding of those rules by many U.S.' people nearly as much as by corporations holding any principal residence inside U.S. (as among other providers of officially free software is Debian : ):
Whenever a guy or even a small businessman outside U.S. strongly needs some special piece of software he will pick it the cheapest way! Within doing like this, he recognizes but at least does not respect legal restrictions the same way or in same sense a U.S. citizen or even U.S. enterprises do. All along he would convincedly reject any calling him a crimininal or somebody alike!
So please, think for yourself if you might not possibly better think as self-understandably the major part of people all around the world prefer to do ... ; ))
32 • DIY Router (by Semiarticulate on 2019-07-15 19:24:33 GMT from United States)
I tend to re-purpose an old Dell Optiplex for this task. They are cheap to get and have more resources than you will ever need. Add an ethernet card, install your router OS of choice and you'll never look back.
33 • @20 No, the reason there is no free software in Debian by default is not elitism (by Truls Rote on 2019-07-15 19:31:33 GMT from Norway)
The many developers involved in Debian comes from many different walks of life. Many of them are employed by Debian down-stream projects like Ubuntu, others are volunteers and your assumption that most work at government institutions is just plain false. Even if it were correct, your idea that if you work at a government institution, you can pick your hardware as you want is not necessarily true. Your elitism criticism seems to imply an anti-elitism elitism on your part in my opinion.
The reason to not include non-free software by default is that Debian is a distro that cares about the freedom of its users. With non-free software, you have no idea what the software does, and neither do anyone else, even if the binaries are distributable. In addidion, no one are able to modify the software for their own needs and contribute back to the project for everyone else to share the modifications. Closed source software is just a bad model of development that Debian is philosophically against.
At the same time, Debian has enough of a practical approach that the non-free software is easily available in the contrib and non-free repos unlike some distros like Trisquel or Parabola that is Free Software Foundation-recommended. I think this is a good compromise that gives the people that do not care about their freedom the choice to use non-free software if they really want to, but at the same time means that unless you actively opt in to these repos, Debian is free software only by default. In an ideal world, we would not need non-free drivers for commodity hardware, but since the world has yet to understand the importance of free software (although open source is coming along well and is a good first step in the right direction), sometimes we have to compromise to get our hardware to work and then Debian helps us out by having the contrib and non-free repos. It is not easy for a Linux newcomer from Windows or macOS, but it makes a lot of sense.
34 • Re: Debian and non-free (by DifferentJeff on 2019-07-15 20:21:34 GMT from United States)
@20 Wow. As someone who's submitted purchase orders while working at academic, government, private business, and public business, I've *never* had anything 'magically' appear. It was a fight everywhere. I've used re-purposed hardware everywhere, including when I worked at university. Disclosure: I never tried to re-purpose the VAX, though.
35 • Not Supportable, Not Official (by Somewhat Reticent on 2019-07-15 22:46:42 GMT from United States)
DebIan cannot support proprietary software; only the "proprietor" can.
That should be understandable: they don't make most hardware.
Some of us prefer to keep such things on as short a leash as possible.
Case-by-case - not wholesale - with access to further explanation/information.
36 • Endeavour to persevere! (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2019-07-15 23:06:42 GMT from United States)
The ambition to provide a better, less abrasive educational experience to those who want to learn the Arch way is most commendable.
…
Back in the day, the Full Manual was a large 3-ring binder; pages relevant to an update would supplement (or, for the lazy, replace) prior-version pages.
This only worked when all systems were essentially on the same version.
…
In time, Hypertext aimed to provide a better way to access version-specific details.
Unfortunately, multiplication of layers, languages, versions and varieties of software today makes proper maintenance of such a Full Manual highly challenging.
The sad truth is that the Full Manual no longer exists.
"Go Fish" only leads to further confusion.
There is no Full (HTML) Manual that covers all versions of all varieties of software and hardware.
37 • Do it yourself router (by GreginNC on 2019-07-16 00:42:04 GMT from United States)
I answered the pol with "repurposed an old PC to be a router".
Although I currently use an off the shelf router, around 3 years ago I set up PFSense on an old pc and used it for a router for just short of a year. I found it had more range than the retail routers I had used before and performed as well in every way I could tell with the benefit of an unbelievable number of utilities available to extend functionality.
I went back to the old table top router for one reason only, I didn't really have the room for a third PC in the room where I wanted it setup.
38 • FerenOS (by Roy on 2019-07-16 09:04:36 GMT from United States)
It didn't take me long to switch from Debian 10 to FerenOS. I like the better options in Power settings. The UEFI for my Intel with micro code I have now. I can get used to Cinnamon but would rather more Panel options as I would like to have it on top. It has Synaptic and an older kernel. I think it is cool.
39 • Debian install DVD in /etc/sources.lst (by Alexandru on 2019-07-16 11:08:39 GMT from Romania)
"When installing Debian from the DVD where packages are provided by local media, the local disc is kept in the distribution's list of package sources."
Each and every time new Debian version is released I hear this argument.
Please, open https://www.debian.org/ page and look at the upper-left corner. You will see "Download Debian 10.0" button, which points to netinstall image of 160 MB. THIS is the DEFAULT way to install Debian. If you install it using THIS way, your /etc/sources.lst will contain ONLY http sources and NO iso.
Please, explain why do you expect to download 3.6 GB iso full of Debian packages and install from it only to ignore all these packages immediately after installation? Why you consider THIS is more logical than your complain?
40 • @26 - Debian Testing support (by Alexandru on 2019-07-16 11:12:52 GMT from Romania)
"There are three reasons why I would not recommend enabling Testing repositories on a new copy of Debian Stable.
1. It is not supported. If you are running Debian Stable in the first place, chances are you want predictability, support and stability. You'd be sacrificing some of these by enabling the Testing repos."
Debian Testing has perfectly the same level of security support and updates as Debian Stable. Actually, Debian Testing is what other distributions call "Release", "Stable".
41 • Debian 10 (by Rick on 2019-07-16 11:35:19 GMT from United States)
I am pleasantly surprised using Debian 10. I downloaded and installed the non-free firmware version with the MATE desktop. WiFi works flawlessly. Shutdown time is about 3-4 seconds which is absolutely amazing. It also runs faster than Debian 9 and finally has a useable update manager which tells me when and what updates are available. This was a real sticking point in past releases and prevented me from using Debian as a daily driver. To me, older software doesn't matter. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Overall, 5 of 5 stars for Debian 10!
42 • @38 Cinnamon flipped. (by Angel on 2019-07-16 12:24:55 GMT from Philippines)
I don't see your problem. I used Cinnamon for years with the panel on top and a dock at the bottom.
43 • Installing Debian (by Jesse on 2019-07-16 13:58:06 GMT from Canada)
@39:
A couple of points: 1. The download button for Debian is in the upper-right corner of the site, not left.
2. You mentioned reading my complaint about Debian's default APT sources before. If you've read my other reviews before in which I pointed out the APT sources issues then you've also read my reasoning for not using net-install media. In short, it's incredibly inefficient when performing multiple installs, there is a greater risk of the install failing due to network problems, and it's far too slow on many people's Internet connections making it a poor default route.
3. Lots of other distributions offer net-install and local install media. None of them (with the possible exception of the way OpenBSD handles package mirrors) have this issue with missing package mirrors following a fresh install.There is no reason Debian can't set up their network mirrors in APT's configuration like every other Deb-based distribution.
4. Your argument seems to be that people should expect package management to be broken, unless they use the default install media. This does not make any sense to me. Package management should work with any of the official install media, just like it does on every other Linux distribution.
44 • @43 - Debian package mirrors (by Andy Prough on 2019-07-16 16:42:27 GMT from United States)
> 3. Lots of other distributions offer net-install and local install media. None of them (with the possible exception of the way OpenBSD handles package mirrors) have this issue with missing package mirrors following a fresh install.There is no reason Debian can't set up their network mirrors in APT's configuration like every other Deb-based distribution.
In my experience the ISO install only behaves this way if you do not connect to a network during installation. In that event, it assumes that you will be using the DVD image as your repository. Probably once you do connect to a network post-install, apt should offer to set up mirrors automatically.
But, in the end, if you can't figure out how to set up a mirror (or set up sudo, or get codecs), should you really be using Debian anyway? Probably better in that case to use a distro that's a lot more newbie friendly.
45 • Debian and APT mirrors (by Jesse on 2019-07-16 16:53:51 GMT from Canada)
@44: "In my experience the ISO install only behaves this way if you do not connect to a network during installation. In that event, it assumes that you will be using the DVD image as your repository. Probably once you do connect to a network post-install, apt should offer to set up mirrors automatically."
Neither of those assumptions is true. If you use network mirrors using the DVD install, the DVD stays in place post-install, short circuiting APT's downloads. APT does not fix this post-install automatically as you suggest.
46 • @45 Debian and APT mirrors (by Andy Prough on 2019-07-16 18:50:45 GMT from United States)
> Neither of those assumptions is true. If you use network mirrors using the DVD install, the DVD stays in place post-install, short circuiting APT's downloads. APT does not fix this post-install automatically as you suggest.
Not for me, but I was using a Debian Buster RC1 ISO and it was several weeks ago. I very clearly signed into my wifi network with a DVD ISO install, and the apt mirrors were set up and working at the end of the installation process. I will reinstall with the latest Buster release to double check how the official release ISO is working. When it asked you if you wanted to check for updates during the installation, did you tell it yes or no? Maybe this needs a bug report if it's misbehaving like you say.
47 • @29 Mageia (by Titus_Groan on 2019-07-16 19:12:13 GMT from New Zealand)
I see that they have released a new set of install media in response to AMD Ryzen : no boot issue.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ryzen-3700x-3900x-linux&num=1
seems to be a fast response for a community distro.
48 • Debian APT repositories (by Jesse on 2019-07-16 20:18:39 GMT from Canada)
@46: "When it asked you if you wanted to check for updates during the installation, did you tell it yes or no? Maybe this needs a bug report if it's misbehaving like you say."
Whenever I install Debian for a review I do it both ways, the results are the same either way. It has been this way since at least Debian 6. (You can see the same findings in my earlier reviews of the distro.) The funny thing is, I mention this in most of my reviews and someone always assumes it is because of the network-update question. I've brought it up multiple times with Debian developers, but they don't see it as an issue.
49 • Sudo (by Brian on 2019-07-16 23:07:16 GMT from United States)
sudo is installed and configured, if, during install, you create a user account, but do not set a root password; that user will have admin privileges through sudo.
I didn't see this documented, and didn't realize it was the case until someone in a Debian IRC chatroom mentioned it; I'd previously configured it after installation.
Debian's installer does seem rather backwards. I find the disk partitioning, in particular, is frustrating.
50 • Buster seems great (by Tim on 2019-07-17 01:36:37 GMT from United States)
It's good to see this mostly positive review of Debian Buster. My experience has been the same: some roughness to set up, but it's performed amazingly well ever since it was set up.
Every release of Debian or Ubuntu is a roll of the dice for every individual user. When was it frozen from sid, what versions of the packages that I personally use made it in, etc. So far, buster seems to have packages that I could see staying comfortable with for the life of the distribution.
I wanted to address one point that keeps being brought up- testing is NOT the other distro's stable. If it has never given you problems, that's great, but testing is a rolling distro where major systemwide changes eventually get pushed. Some of these changes break systems (like mine when fglrx was dropped.) The point of testing is to test, and such big issues can happen when major changes in packages are incorporated.
51 • Ferient OS, a "joke" OS (SourceForge) (by Greg Zeng on 2019-07-17 02:08:57 GMT from Australia)
There are many ego-only Linux operating systems. According to the SourceForge site:
> "'Feren OS is ****'? Time to fix that."
> " ... we worked together to make a Feren OS that is designed just for English Bob, the main cause of the whole 'it is ****' joke,"
Distrowatch has some Linux & BSD systems not yet listed. These may be on the waiting list, or may not yet be recognised by Distrowatch. This "joke" OS is available as a beta release only; not yet as a final release.
Most new operating systems are beta releases, although the supplier might package it as a final release. After the first installation of the new system, it usually needs an on-line update. This update repairs any older breakages & updates the operating system to its newest format, as designed by the supplier.
52 • No 32-bit package in my Debian installation (by arijit on 2019-07-17 04:21:23 GMT from United States)
I might be one of few minorities, but I don't think I'll be impacted with losing 32-bit support in Debian or Fedora. I don't use Ubuntu.
I have a latest Debian 10 installation with all day to day applications. I ran both the commands as given above.
$ lsof | grep i386-linux-gnu && echo "Found 32-bit library in use" || echo "No 32-bit library in use"
No 32-bit library in use
$ dpkg -l | grep "^ii" | grep ":i386" && echo "Found 32-bit packages" || echo "Did not find 32-bit packages"
Did not find 32-bit packages
That's a surprisingly 100% 64-bit system I have. I didn't know!
53 • @43 Installing Debian (by Alexandru on 2019-07-17 14:59:11 GMT from Romania)
"1. The download button for Debian is in the upper-right corner of the site, not left."
- Agree, my fail. Still, you usually perform installation of distributions in the way recommended by that distribution.
2. You mentioned reading my complaint about Debian's default APT sources before. If you've read my other reviews before in which I pointed out the APT sources issues then you've also read my reasoning for not using net-install media. In short, it's incredibly inefficient when performing multiple installs, there is a greater risk of the install failing due to network problems, and it's far too slow on many people's Internet connections making it a poor default route.
- In this case (poor network connection) there is even more reasons to keep DVD in resources list instead of dropping it. More than that, Debian is one of very few distributions that can be installed and used completely offline (without security updates, which is irrelevant in this scenario), and keeping the installation DVDs in sources list is crucial to achieve this.
3. Lots of other distributions offer net-install and local install media. None of them (with the possible exception of the way OpenBSD handles package mirrors) have this issue with missing package mirrors following a fresh install.There is no reason Debian can't set up their network mirrors in APT's configuration like every other Deb-based distribution.
-I am not sure I fully understand your point. Debian offers a good default mirror depending on location, but also lets user to choose a mirror from a large and officially curated list of mirrors.
4. Your argument seems to be that people should expect package management to be broken, unless they use the default install media. This does not make any sense to me. Package management should work with any of the official install media, just like it does on every other Linux distribution.
- No, my point is not that people should expect package management to be broken. My point is that the expectation of what is expected and what seems to be broken is different for different people, and Debian way seems more logical to me than your suggestion.
54 • @51 Re: Ferient OS, a "joke" OS (by Rev_Don on 2019-07-17 20:12:29 GMT from United States)
"There are many ego-only Linux operating systems. According to the SourceForge site:
> "'Feren OS is ****'? Time to fix that."
> " ... we worked together to make a Feren OS that is designed just for English Bob, the main cause of the whole 'it is ****' joke,"
I don't find any comments even remotely like the above on SourceForge. Care to provide specific links and more detailed location for them? Otherwise we can only assume they don't actually exist.
55 • @54, Ferient (by Angel on 2019-07-17 23:25:55 GMT from Philippines)
Google search, first result.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/ferient-os/
56 • @55. Re: Ferient (by Rev_Don on 2019-07-18 02:34:50 GMT from United States)
Thank you. My problem was I was looking at Feron, not Ferient.
57 • @42 (by Roy on 2019-07-18 05:44:32 GMT from United States)
You are right. It can be adjusted.
58 • DIY Router / Firewall (by Simon Plaistowe on 2019-07-19 00:02:28 GMT from New Zealand)
I've been procrastinating on installing a firewall for ages, so when my old router died a few months ago I grabbed an old PC from my graveyard, slapped a second LAN card in and tried out a few distros.
Connection to our ONT requires VLAN/DHCP. I was impressed with the ease of configuring VLAN support on OPNsense and did run that for a few weeks. Eventually settled on IPFire for it's ease of configuring/monitoring several services I wanted, although the VLAN was a little harder to configure (had to use terminal to get it working).
With a WLAN access point on the LAN side, it's so much faster & more reliable than the old router. Definitely recommended if you have a crappy unreliable router supplied by your ISP. Also opens the way to better security and a bunch of other fun things to try. Speed up those horrific Windows updates, automagically kick the kids off the internet after bedtime, remotely log into your LAN, run a simple NFS or Samba server, set up a TOR relay, etc.
59 • DIY NAT router - why (by Some Random User on 2019-07-19 18:32:57 GMT from United States)
I never did it and it doesn't sound interesting to me (other than as an exercise). I paid a little more than $100 for a top performing, off the shelf router. I really don't see the point.
As I investigated using an old PC for a file server a couple of years ago, I still see two major stumbling blocks to actually using something like this. High availability (necessary for a router) and low power consumption (not necessary, but a good thing to have). There is also the router performance issue of multiple antennae, which good off the shelf routers have.
60 • DIY NAT router (by Some Random User on 2019-07-19 18:37:01 GMT from United States)
@6
No an off the shelf router flashed with DD-WRT a DIY router is not a DIY NAT router.
Number of Comments: 60
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