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1 • Ubuntu slow, not reviewed - should be counted as a failure for Ubuntu (by Andy Prough on 2019-04-29 00:40:53 GMT from United States) |
My first comment is that you''ve reviewed and given a failing grade to distros in the past which could not boot up or which were dogged by slow performance due to some unresolved post-release issue.
So, to be fair, I think this review should be counted as both a failing review of Ubuntu, and a more thorough review of Ubuntu Mate. And this review should be linked to Ubuntu's distrowatch page as a review, so people browsing the distro reviews later can be warned about the problems Canonical has in putting out a release in a useable state. And I will note, this is certainly not the first time this type of thing has happened with Ubuntu.
2 • Ubuntu slow (by Jesse on 2019-04-29 00:50:13 GMT from Canada)
@1: I'm not sure the little blurb on Ubuntu should be considered a review. It was more of a brief glance. Something I've noticed though since the 19.04 family of distros came out is that any of them that run GNOME are basically unusable on my systems. Ubuntu itself, Ubuntu Kylin and Pop!_OS take about 5+ minutes to boot and are painfully slow trying to do anything on the desktop. I'm not sure yet how much of this is a GNOME issue and how much might be a driver issue or a Wayland vs X.Org issue. However, all the other editions Ubuntu MATE, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, etc have all worked fine.
This is in harsh contrast to my experiences with Ubuntu running GNOME a year and a half ago when I wrote: "I was pleasantly surprised to find that not only did the GNOME on Wayland desktop session work, but it tended to be more responsive than the Unity desktop was on the same hardware." And then, later, "On the whole the transition from Unity to GNOME (and Xorg to Wayland) went much better than I thought it would. Ubuntu 17.10 was quick and easy to navigate and worked smoothly for the most part."
I'm using the same test hardware now as I was then. This feels like a big regression and something that I hope gets addressed before the next version comes out in October.
3 • Errors and issues (by void on 2019-04-29 00:55:58 GMT from Brazil)
"During my time with Ubuntu MATE I ran into a number of errors and small problems, most of them occurring in the first day or two of use. The second time I logged into the desktop the Brisk menu immediate crashed, causing a pop-up letting me know and its process had to be restarted. The first time the screensaver came on, I pressed keys and moved the mouse and nothing happened. The screen remained blank. I had to switch to a text console and stop the screensaver manually and then switch back to the desktop session to get back to MATE. "
I don´t think it is acceptable to publish a final version with these kind of bugs. Brisk menu crashing is a long date bug.
C´mom people, will we all have to get back to Slackware?
4 • Ubuntu... What a mess (by Paul on 2019-04-29 02:22:46 GMT from Canada)
Issues with Ubuntu not being ready for prime-time, but being released anyways... hmmm... This has been going on for YEARS! With all the different flavors of Ubuntu, and a relatively small team of full time devs, it is not prudent to have a every-6-months release schedule. Six months barely allows for an alpha-level build to be put together, much less a new release that needs to be thoroughly tested and vetted.
Instead, what we the public wind up with is, at best, a beta-testing version of the newest *buntu. And we are the beta-testers, Ubuntu's guinea pigs. That's just dandy, isn't it?
IMHO, the Ubuntu teams need to get their act together. Ditch the 6 month release model & DON'T RELEASE a new version until it is THOROUGHLY tested!!! Perhaps take a page from the Debian Stable folks - Debian Stable gets released "when it's ready"... PERIOD! Likewise, so should Ubuntu... To do otherwise, as Canonical is currently doing, is irresponsible. It makes your devs look incompetent and it makes your product look like a poorly constructed piece of shit!
5 • Ubuntu (by Argent on 2019-04-29 03:03:26 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu has been sliding with ratings and usability for a long time, each new release is much more in need of further development than the last.
Linux Mint for some reason works well and not sure why it would but simply a good distribution. It too uses a Ubuntu base, so can't offer reasons why.
Personally would not use something that is problematic, also ponder why does Ubuntu release something that is not bootable?
6 • Clean SOCKS (by Ankleface Wroughtlandmire on 2019-04-29 03:59:27 GMT from Ecuador)
Wow, thanks a ton Jesse for the tutorial on SOCKS, I had no idea that it was that easy to set up and use a proxy with SSH. I'm sure I'll find that useful for projects at some point.
7 • 19.04 Working Well (by Disco Dingo Jamming For Me on 2019-04-29 04:18:08 GMT from United States)
I had mostly positive experiences going from 18.10 to 19.04 Ubuntu Vanilla. On a fresh install Haswell machine I did experience issues during the early beta, but my late beta install worked fine on through release and dist upgrade. A secondary modern laptop running 18.10 upgraded to official 19.04 release without problem. Both are snappy and run great for me. Posting this as users mileage varies.
8 • Proxy (by Sauron on 2019-04-29 04:36:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
The tutorial on setting up a proxy is useful and welcome, it will come in handy in the future, thanks.
While on the subject, does anyone know of a tutorial on setting up a proxy to serve older machines and OS's?
For example, setting up a proxy on a modern OS that serves stripped down web pages to a Commodore Amiga or Windows 98 and the like. The modern web is unusable on these machines as is but it would be extremely useful for people like me that still use them.
I know it's been done and have seen comments about it but I haven't found any instructions or tutorials about it, it would be great if someone is aware of anything!
9 • 19.04 Dico working fine too (by Meandmyself on 2019-04-29 04:44:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
Gnome desktop running perfectly here. i3 4th gen, onboard graphics. (Hasswell)
10 • More Ubuntu? (by Ken on 2019-04-29 05:05:21 GMT from United States)
Maybe it's time to stop reviewing every single new Ubuntu release. Seems like every release can be summed up as "nothing new" "this seems familiar" and "more bugs than expected". Why bother taking up an entire review on a distro when there's nothing new or noteworthy to mention? I enjoy the articles on lesser-known distros or distros that are doing something new and interesting with their releases much more than the obligatory "Ubuntu went up a release number" obligatory review.
11 • OpenJDK (by alex.theoto on 2019-04-29 06:28:16 GMT from Greece)
I don't understand if Red Hat will provide the source code for other distributions.
Will it be available and supported only for RHEL?
Can someone clarify this?
12 • Kudos for Scientific Linux (by Kudos for Scientific Linux on 2019-04-29 06:32:08 GMT from France)
And here comes a big round of applause for the Scientific Linux team. End the senseless deduplication of effort and join ranks with CentOS. If only every distribution maintainer could work like this, there should be no more than one or two dozen distributions out there instead of hundreds and thousands.
13 • @11 (by Microlinux on 2019-04-29 06:39:54 GMT from France)
Red Hat is a commercial distribution *and* a perfect supporter of the GNU philosophy, since they publish *all* their source code: http://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/
This allows maintainers to make free (as in both speech & beer) enterprise-quality spinoffs like CentOS, Scientific Linux, Springdale Linux, Oracle Linux, etc.
14 • Ubuntu Mate (by John on 2019-04-29 07:45:16 GMT from Switzerland)
I had the same expirience when using Ubuntu Mate 18.04: nice ideas and concepts but unfortunately lot of craches, panel configuration not working properly, Brisk menu crashing...this coul be a nice distro if they solve these problems, meanwile Xfce is rock solid on every distro I have tried.
15 • RE:3 Errors and issues (by deNiros on 2019-04-29 08:16:41 GMT from Belgium)
People are surprisingly forgivable these days. This goes for many things. There were many issues with Facebook and google, and most people keep using it. Win10 had many issues, and people keep using it. The gaming industry recycles it's own products and uses micro-transactions as their main base, and people keep buying it. It's probably part of conditioning. For example, A product that has always been super stable and reliable, and did stick to certain principles, and was very established over the years, suddenly slowly starts to deteriorate. Apparently if that process is slow, people start accepting it. And they just lower their expectations.
In this case with the crashes in Ubuntu Mate, they are mentioned like just an issue that happened. The final judgment isn't really in sync (imo) with the experiences described. On the other hand, adaptation is a generally a good thing. Lowering your standards, because it's not in your power to change it anyway, is perhaps a good thing.
Btw, there is nothing wrong with going back to slackware. :P I still use it (with Salix 14.2), and will keep using it. And it is boringly stable, and that's the way I like it. But with a lack of change, It hardly hits the news, and therefore popularity decreases. People prefer new shiny things, instead of slow improvements with a stable base. But luckily we all can chose what we use.
16 • C´mom people, will we all have to get back to Slackware? (by Michele on 2019-04-29 08:30:17 GMT from United States)
mmhhh it's an idea.
17 • Xubuntu team rules - Work should be included upstream (by Fred R. on 2019-04-29 10:09:59 GMT from France)
I've always been amazed by only 1 flavour of Ubuntu: Xubuntu.
The customization done is simply amazing, and I really wish the Xubuntu work to be done upstream, directly in Xfce.
Indeed, it would really improve the distro shipping default Xfce desktop, such as Fedora or Debian (or even Slackware !), and help users who don't want to use ubuntu base distros.
18 • @ 10 (by Woo on 2019-04-29 10:14:02 GMT from Portugal)
Your comment applies to every single distro release in the last 10 years or even more. Either no meaningful changes, or too many changes causing too many bugs. A version number increased, quality did not. Computing 2019.
19 • Ubuntu Mate (by Jim on 2019-04-29 10:39:26 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu Mate is my main distro. I love the Mate desktop + Ubuntu, and Mate is the only desktop I use, no matter the distribution (Parrot and Siduction). I also use the Custom Menu bar, not the Brisk menu. A also add Synaptic to any install if it is not included. My one wish is (I use the LTS version) it was on the 5 year rather than 3 year schedule.
20 • The return to slackware (by Slack_user on 2019-04-29 10:56:33 GMT from Brazil)
For sure Slackware will return. Soon, version 15.0 will be The version of it. Hope Pat release it asap
21 • @14 @15 Xfce and Salix (by void on 2019-04-29 11:00:22 GMT from Brazil)
Xfce is very stable and versatile, I wish more distros adopted it as default.
Salix is really great! I don´t remember why I stopped using it.
22 • Ubuntu bugs and issues (by Chris on 2019-04-29 11:26:31 GMT from United States)
For those complaining about recent Ubuntu releases not being ready for primetime for various reasons, you have to remember that these are interim releases. Ubuntu releases in-between its LTS releases should be considered technology previews and even beta software. One person commented that Linux Mint works well and isn't plagued by these issues even though it is also based on Ubuntu. That's because Linux Mint only builds upon Ubuntu LTS releases. I think the biggest issue with Ubuntu is that it has splintered its development resources in order to support the many flavors. If the core developers of the various flavors of Ubuntu were to join forces with Canonical than Ubuntu as a whole would be of better overall quality. Another problem is that Canonical wasted a lot of years trying to reinvent the wheel with its Unity desktop. Ubuntu has only recently switched to Gnome which has set it back with regards to quality as it is basically back to square one in terms of polishing Gnome for its own unique user experience. Perhaps when Ubuntu's usage falls low enough its developers will get the message that shoddy releases aren't going to cut it.
23 • Ubuntu MATE 19.04 (by Rick on 2019-04-29 11:59:22 GMT from United States)
You usually give good distro reviews. But I think you gave MATE 19.04 too much praise. It never should have been released. It is full of bugs and not worth the time or effort to try to debug. The MATE team should have done that and been much more thorough in their testing process!
24 • @22 Ubuntu bugs and issues (by Sophia on 2019-04-29 12:57:06 GMT from Canada)
I was going to make the same point. Unfortunately there is a whole generation of Linux users who expect their distro's to be polished professional products that require no risk or input from the end user. That's not how open source works.
I've been testing Lubuntu 19.04. There has been alot of improvements on the desktop, like better integration of GTK theming, although I understand why some people might find the desktop to minimalistic, but it does come with alot of bells and whistle's out of the box, otherwise no problem with the Ubuntu base.
25 • Ewwwbuntu (by Sam on 2019-04-29 12:58:16 GMT from United States)
Have experienced the same issues with Ubuntu releases since the last LTS release. Not sure what is going on at Canonical, but this may be related to their very limited window for Beta releases and lack (unless I've totally missed them) of Alphas for community testing recent releases. I noticed that running Ubuntu 19.04 and Fedora 30 (beta) on my old X1 Carbon, despite both distros using the same Gnome release, Fedora didn't have half the bugs and graphical glitches I encountered on the Ubuntu release. Ugh. As Canonical focuses on their business services and other money-making projects, they need to move desktop Ubuntu to a yearly release giving their dev team more time to work out this crap.
26 • Different results. (by Garon on 2019-04-29 13:19:41 GMT from United States)
Upgraded form 18.10 to 19.04 with no problems. So far I've not had any hiccups to speak of. People really surprise me that they don't know these are experimental releases. Even the web site tells you that if you want stability to download the LTS version of the distro. That's what these point releases are for. All's working well on my Lenovo Thinkpad with i5 processor and 8 gigs of ram.
27 • Shouldn't it have been a Xubuntu Review ? 20 >> 19 > 18 > 17 (by Frank on 2019-04-29 13:29:46 GMT from United States)
Reviewing an Ubuntu edition :
Kubuntu: 443 (18%)
Ubuntu: 470 (19%)
Ubuntu MATE: 422 (17%)
Xubuntu: 485 (20%)
or am I nitpicking ....
28 • Poll results (by Jesse on 2019-04-29 13:32:16 GMT from Canada)
@27: As I pointed out in the review, the poll results I was going with were based on the numbers on Ubuntu's release day (Thursday). At that time Xubuntu was close to the bottom in terms of votes. It didn't really shoot up until the weekend, well after I'd tried Ubuntu and installed Ubuntu MATE.
29 • Ubuntu is not ready (by Ubuntu never more on 2019-04-29 14:55:44 GMT from Brazil)
Last month I did a fresh install of ubuntu 18.10. Guess what happened after a system update? I switched to Mint!
30 • @24 Sophia: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-29 14:57:31 GMT from United States)
"That's not how open source works."
Why not? 'Open source' does not automatically mean mediocre, amateur work. That is only the opinion of the Windows Crowd.
31 • 19.04 (by Tim on 2019-04-29 16:59:38 GMT from United States)
I think Jesse's review is fair to Ubuntu MATE 19.04, but I don't think a lot of the other comments are.
I'm running it on four computers, and it's been flawless on three. The fourth gave me my biggest issue that Ubuntu MATE ever has given me- the touchpad on an HP 15 laptop didn't work. I was able to change options on a kernel module and have grub load those options at boot time so it wasn't a big deal for me, but it would have been a problem for those who didn't know where to look.
It's interesting to me that mainline Ubuntu and Ubuntu Kylin are having their issues and I had this one- I wonder if the 5.0 kernel is buggy.
At the end of the day, this is still a good release. You choose Ubuntu interim because it gives you up to date packages (I really needed Virtualbox 6) and lets change happen much more gradually than if you just use LTS's. But every Ubuntu (or Debian) release is a snapshot of Debian testing, and depending on your hardware and choice of software some snapshots are awesome and others less so.
For me, I'd put 18.10 first, then 17.04, then 17.10, then 18.04, then 19.04. It's random. And it probably wouldn't be the same order people with different software and hardware would chose. All of them still were very functional systems that worked better for me than other options.
32 • @31 Ubuntu base (by Void on 2019-04-29 17:31:49 GMT from Brazil)
"(...)very functional systems that worked better for me than other options."
I agree that Ubuntu base is better than almost anthing else. It usually works alright with my machines, but Ubuntu 19.04 hangs on my desktop too (A process named ld.so.something keeps using all the CPU).
33 • @30 dragonmouth (by Sophia on 2019-04-29 17:50:55 GMT from Canada)
What I meant was that with a point or beta release I don't expect it to be flawless but instead of complaining, get involved or a least submit a bug report so the devs have something to go on, whether or not they fix it is another issue. With a major release from a major player I do expect more although that's not always the case, in fact I can't recall a major release, Linux or Windows, that didn't have something wrong with it, maybe Windows 3.1
34 • Mate and Ubuntu: it seems to be a 19.04 issue (by Ophiophagus on 2019-04-29 18:39:15 GMT from United States)
I had the same delays and slow start-up problems with both 19.04 versions I tried: Mate was a fresh install and Ubuntu was an upgrade. Pretty poor. Somewhere code was changed and reflects poorly on what I had great experiences with. I advise to stay away from at least these two versions.
35 • Ubuntu (by Argent on 2019-04-29 20:56:00 GMT from United States)
@ 33 Dragonmouth: Me thinks that the issue is that it's always the same old issues and problems with an Ubuntu release either it be an alpha or final release. Ubuntu seems to neglect and repeat over and over the same bugs. Something to carry forward and not fix, if LM can do it why not Ubuntu?
Moved away from systemd which is the culprit with bad code and the many distributions quitting or outright substandard.
As much as liked Ubuntu, just something can no longer tolerate!
36 • MATE: So Far So Good; Pop!_NOs: Ummm... ; Proxy: not good at all! (by MichaelTheGamer on 2019-04-29 21:07:23 GMT from United States)
Hey hey, everyone!
As a whole, yeah: I was really disappointed. I read about all of them before doing anything and that may have been a bad idea. I got so excited! I mean, Finally, kernel 5.0 instead of 4.15.0-243-2-9er then another then finally 4.20 WHOOO!! I expect it will be decades before we see that number West of the decimal point change again. Anyway, not just that, there were, if you looked at the list of included software, there were lots more greens on all the *buntus.
I got nowhere with Pop_OS...to me, it sounded nothing like a Pop but more a wounded Whoopie Cushion. Kubuntu is usually my favorite because of flashy KDE-Plasma! Nope! It outright refused. I mean, though both Pop! and Kubuntu stopped right as they began to mess with the HD, Partitions, etc., at least Pop was polite enough to ask, "would you like to try something else?" and then give me not one alternative but two.
MATE? Aww, MATE was epic! I have truly never seen a more perfect setup and flawless install! I even now, hesitate, fingers hovering over the keys, because...well, I KNOW this is going to sound really weird, funny, and maybe even a bit creepy. But it. was. Beautiful! (pause while laughter dies down) No, really. I had a few glitches post install & update, but nothing huge or that you've not already heard of. Best example is the Brisk Menu. More like Fussy! OH!! I nearly forgot! I have had this happen a couple of times and not just on MATE (but always on 19.04) and that is: shortly after install, maybe even after the first reboot after the post-install almost mandatory reboot (so even after 2 total so far) I am sure many of you have had-if using wireless-your PC/Laptop act as if there is, and never has been ANY wi-fi signal. Okay. Close everything down and reboot AGAIN. It should all be fixed. And as far as the Software Boutique Icons instead of Labels? If you hover your mouse over the Icons, you WILL see text.
In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions on why I encounter so many roadblocks in the install process right when it decides I don't have the correct partition setup (or something like that), I would be very grateful.
Lastly, I had terrible luck with the whole remote computer PROXY thing. Okay, yes: I should have realized you probably meant 'a remote PC that I MYSELF owned,' true. In hindsight, I see that. Now. In the meantime, I have a very angry neighbor, a large, egg-shaped black and blue knot on my forehead, and I owe him a new lamp. Apparently, where I thought was an Ethernet jack...and it was the middle of the night. And in my defense, it was very dark in that room! Well, live and learn, right?
Take care all, and Happy Coding!
37 • proxy Tor in text but not in poll (by Dxvid on 2019-04-29 21:58:37 GMT from Sweden)
@Jesse you put Tor as an example of proxy in the poll text but not in the poll answers. In your opinion, should we answer "SOCKS proxy", "Another proxy" if we use Tor?
Tor is a SOCKS proxy that only accepts TCP/IP and routs it through 3 "nodes" encapsulated in "encrypted onion layers".
38 • Latest Ubuntu (by Jordan on 2019-04-29 21:59:39 GMT from United States)
My CPU couldn't handle it.. and it's a modern machine with plenty of ram and speed. I don't get it.. this is supposed to be the epitome of linux development; Ubuntu.
Well, it used to boast that. Never mind now.
39 • Ubuntu and Mint and Java (by Episode8x3WasTooDark on 2019-04-29 22:17:25 GMT from United States)
Yes, some have observed that Mint is always better than Ubuntu, but it's only partially because of the LTS base. Notice that Mint has been sliding too, just more slowly, after being on top for so long. I think there may be some truth to the systemd base to both (and most others) as a contributing suspect (and GNOME has a dependency, don't know about MATE). I've watched the bug reports for a while and observed that none I've followed ever got fixed (though some have tried) without breaking something else and reverting to square one. More and more apps are disappearing from the repositories and can't even be compiled any longer on these hosts. In the distant past I've found some short term Ubuntu releases to be more stable than their LTS predecessors (but that was before the switch to 9 month support).
Speaking of short-cycle releases, with RedHat taking over OpenJDK, where does that leave JavaFX integration? With AWT and Swing out, and JavaFX handed off to another company earlier, will there be a GUI that integrates with Java for developers any longer (after finally getting it into 8 and 11).
40 • Ubuntu (by Clark on 2019-04-29 22:23:27 GMT from United States)
The only reason to go with the interim Ubuntu release seems to me to be if you need the latest libc , gcc8, or kernel 5 for your system.
I'm on the latest mint 19.1 . The previous mint 18.. was pretty quick but based on old software like ubuntu 16.04. This mint version is noticeably faster and better performing with a Cinnamon 4 desktop and boots in seconds. The difference between gnome on Ubuntu and Cinnamon on mint may be part of the performance issue, but probably, as several commenters have mentioned, it has more to to do with resources allocated to put out a 9 month release.
41 • Tor proxy (by Jesse on 2019-04-29 23:05:55 GMT from Canada)
@37: I think Tor would fall under other since the network works differently (as a whole) than a standard SOCKS proxy.
42 • How open source works... (by Friar Tux on 2019-04-30 00:37:13 GMT from Canada)
@22 & @24... That is how open source SHOULD work. I don't have time to mess with issues and glitches. That's why The Wife and I left Windows and came to Linux. We needed an OS that just WORKED and stays out of the way. I checked around (I have a log of about three or four dozen distros I tried) and picked on Linus Mint as it was the one that CONSISTENTLY worked out-of-box every time, systemd notwithstanding. True there ARE some hobbyists that like to tinker - I tinker with a few lesser know/used distros now and then but my main OS has to just work - no questions asked.
43 • Ubuntu 19.04 (by manHattan on 2019-04-30 04:39:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
I was very pleasently surprised with Ubuntu 19.04.
Tried it on three different devices; 4 / 12 / 32 GB RAM. Booted fine, no crashes, no glitches ...
I have to say that it got really 'mean & lean'; fast and with quite low ressources usage (for a Gnome Desktop). It's nice to see that Gnome 3 uses just as much (or even less) RAM then some '1997' Mate.
550 GB RAM (on 4GB machine) ~ 770 GB RAM (on 32GB machine).
That's how the LTS should have looked like.
44 • Ubuntu 19.04 (by Paul on 2019-04-30 07:18:05 GMT from Canada)
@43 Sooooo.... Your GNOME/Ubuntu DE is using 550 to 770 GIGABYTES of RAM...
Wow, I knew Ubuntu had some memory leaks, but, sheeesh!
45 • @44 Ubuntu 19.04 (by manHattan on 2019-04-30 10:58:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
:) Yup! I noticed that GB instead of MB glitch but, no way to correct it after one pressed on 'Submit comment'. :)
Maybe some moderator could correct it, however, the screenshot does it too.
46 • @35 Argent: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-30 11:36:24 GMT from United States)
And yet users keep flocking to Ubuntu like moths to a flame. And yet Ubuntu is being pushed as if it was the Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread. To read the popular techie press, if it ain't Ubuntu, it ain't Linux.
The last time I used Ubuntu for any amount of time, it was at version 6.x. Every once in a while I install its latest version or one of its spin-offs and I come to the same conclusion. The issues I had with the early versions are still there. However, with over 200 active non-Ubuntu related distros in the DW database, I don't have to put up with the *buntus.
47 • @46 Ubuntu (by John on 2019-04-30 11:56:21 GMT from Switzerland)
"...with over 200 active non-Ubuntu related distros in the DW database, I don't have to put up with the *buntus" - you do not need to, if you do not want. First ask yourself why Ubuntu is so popular (by far the most popular Linux distro!) befor you start ranting and complaining.
48 • Ubuntu (by Who? Me? on 2019-04-30 14:53:20 GMT from France)
"I don't have to put up with the *buntus." I don't have to put up with them either. I use them because they work for me better than anything else.
49 • Comments != Complaints (by dragonfire on 2019-04-30 15:25:54 GMT from United States)
I think this distrowatch section needs to be renamed from Comments to Complaints. Not much else here. Just a few worthwhile comments, most just opinions at best.
50 • @47 (by Andy Prough on 2019-04-30 16:07:04 GMT from United States)
> "First ask yourself why Ubuntu is so popular (by far the most popular Linux distro!) befor you start ranting and complaining."
dragonmouth answered your question in comment 46: "To read the popular techie press, if it ain't Ubuntu, it ain't Linux."
It is popular because it is what the tech press writes about when they write about Linux. People think it must be the best, most stable distribution, because it gets all the press. However, that's never really seemed to be the case, especially in terms of stability.
51 • Ubuntu (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-30 16:42:28 GMT from United States)
"First ask yourself why Ubuntu is so popular (by far the most popular Linux distro!) "
And yo should ask yourself why Windows is so popular (by far the most popular O/S!).
@47 & @48:
That's what I love about Ubuntu users! They are so objective and fair minded. When someone says that Ubuntu does not work for them, they are "ranting and complaining". But when Ubuntu users deride, malign and ridicule other distros, they are only discussing the lack of merits of those distros. Gentlemen, in spite of what you may think, Ubuntu is NOT a religion. Its opponents need not be put down with fanatical zeal.
52 • @50 (Andy) (by manHattan on 2019-04-30 16:56:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oh, "reviewers" ... did actually anybody ever reviewed the reviewer(~s)?
If some "reviewer" tells you, there's pink grass growing in your garden, would you believe it?
Since years, new Linuxes are coming out and "reviewer" dedoimedo will complain about SMB not (again) working and recommend you "HIS hack". Just an example among many. :) :) :)
No idea why but, I never had that problem. Type the server address, type the credentials and connect. SMB 1, on XP, Vista, Win 7, Win 8(.1), Win 10 ... Win 21 ... ;)
But yeah, not everybody has some borked, hacked and firewalled NW like the reviewer on some Win 7 box with everything sane turned off and "masterly" reconfigured until nothing works anymore.
Linux and Ubuntu ... until 2012/2014 Linux usualy never worked. With Trusty and Mint 17 we got the first (almost) working Linux and since everybody started spitting on Ubuntu, we'll soon have not working Linux again.
One sees it already, the quality is getting worse every day.
The third working Linux I "forgot" to mention ... Salix ... I had Master PDF Editor, version 3, on it a couple of years ago. Today it's still on version 3, even if there's a version 5.x available for ages already ... soon we'll get 6.
Yeah, I think I have to agree with @47 John completely!
53 • Linux & Ubuntu (by who-cares on 2019-04-30 17:23:49 GMT from France)
Not everybody is like you and me.
People DO NOT CARE for the OS!
They don't care if it's open or closed. They don't care for the licenses. They don't care for the codecs... Even less for bad or ugly.
All they want is, to turn THAT THING on, double-click and watch their mp4. If it works, it was a good or bad movie, if it doesn't, it was a sh**ty OS.
That's why Ubuntu (and Mint 17) got popular and that's why the whole Linux world is declining. That's why people will continue using Windows forever -- because nothing else comes already preinstalled and it's simply working.
54 • @52 (by Andy Prough on 2019-04-30 18:16:16 GMT from United States)
> "until 2012/2014 Linux usualy never worked"
I've been using GNU/Linux distros since the late 1990's. I've always been able to get them to work. I've even used Ubuntu successfully, many times, and certainly long before 2012. However, Ubuntu does have problems, and it does run into some new release problems sometimes.
55 • Ubuntu (by Argent on 2019-04-30 19:04:06 GMT from United States)
Notice a lot of comments posted is actually not being negative about Ubuntu but disappointment instead really. Personally, think that all systemd distributions are resource hungry and the way systemd is used causes much of the difficulties to produce a good stable distro.
Perhaps it is time to move on, Devuan, Void, and many other anti-systemd distros run extremely well, not bloated and certainly not resource hungry. There is something odd about systemd distros that I tried is that it plays around oddly with my main board, and CPU when nothing is running.
Love Linux, me thinks there is a stop sign ahead...and systemd has taken us into the twilight-zone of corrupt code. You know...we just want to know what you are doing! : (
Not paranoid, just know when something isn't quite right!
56 • The *Buntus (by Cholo on 2019-04-30 19:27:03 GMT from Canada)
All the different distros have their good points and bad points for each of us. It's just my opinion but I think the best *Buntu I EVER used was 8.04 Hardy Heron..... it just worked on any thing and every thing I put it into. But it's been down hill since then, for me anyway. Still I'd rather use Linux than those ET Operating Systems that feel the need to phone home all the time. But hey, to each their own.
57 • @52 manHattan: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-30 21:47:15 GMT from United States)
"... until 2012/2014 Linux usualy never worked"
Maybe for you it didn't. I used SimplyMEPIS from about 2005 until Woody Woodward decided to pull the plug on that project. It worked out of the box each and every time. I never had to "make it" work. Then I switched to PCLinuxOS and have been using it ever since. Again, works right out of the box. I do tweak it but only to make it look the way I like.
Remember what they used to say about Ubuntu? "Ubuntu" is Swahili for "I don't know how to install Debian".
58 • @53: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-30 23:15:19 GMT from United States)
"People DO NOT CARE for the OS! "
You're right but only to a point. People do not use an O/S, they use the applications.
But you missed my point. Windows is not the most popular O/S because it is the best or because its apps are the best. It is because, for a long time, Windows the only O/S easily available. By the time Linux came along, Windows already had hundreds of millions of prisoners (users) in its walled garden. When those wanting to switch from Windows to Linux, Google "Linux", the first couple of pages of results all refer in some way to Ubuntu. The vast majority of reviews and articles about Linux mention only Ubuntu. AFAIAC, Ubuntu is nothing more than Window-ized Linux. However, if that is your preference, have at it. Whether Ubuntu/Mint are the "best" distros is highly debatable. Each distro has its fans and its detractors.
It was a Frenchman, Anatole France, who said "If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
59 • @58 Foolishness and Ubuntu (by Who? Me? on 2019-05-01 00:41:13 GMT from France)
"If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." It is still a foolish thing if only a few say it, or even one.
Between assorted PCs and virtual VMS, I have installed and tried: Devuan, Debian, Arch, OpenSuse, Redcore, MX, antiX, KaOS, Easy OS, PCLOS, Manjaro, Bluestar, Sparky, Pisi, Kali, Parrot, Feren, Void and another bunch. I've gone LFS and beyond. I've even tried Salix, which makes Debian look like the bleeding edge. Some of these I still have and use on an occasional basis. But for my daily use I always go back to your despised *buntus. Used to be Mint. Now it's Kubuntu and KDE-neon. No OS is perfect, but these are damn good, about as good as I can get, for ease of use, with the most choices. (Honorable mention goes to Arch and derivatives.)
60 • Been using Ubuntu for a good while (by RJA on 2019-05-01 05:45:08 GMT from United States)
@54, I have been using Ubuntu for a good while, too! I liked 10.04, (Lucid Lynx) which was fast and was stable, even when being an alpha. (albeit a very-late alpha) (It was alpha 3)
(Ironically, is appeared that the beta stage had a regression.)
Jaunty Jackalope before that, in 2009, was a good version, too, was snappy!
Karmic Koala was a regression, a slow boot that resembled Vista!
61 • @ dragonmouth / Ubuntu vs. rest of Linux (by manHattan on 2019-05-01 07:00:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
We basically see it the same way but, we come to different conclusions because of the different standpoints.
If I would think only of myself like you do, I could agree on: "It worked out of the box each and every time." but, there's one "but".
Imagine I give MX to my grandma. Does it work out of the box?
One day comes some update and says that it has updated the Grub and asks what should it do with a configuration file. Keep it or replace it or ...
Conclusion: MX doesn't work. Not for my grandma. Not for my family. Not for my relatives. Not for my friends. Not for any of thousands of users I was supporting in the past 30 years. It works for you and it works for me.
Imagine I give current Linux Mint to my grandma. I set it and forget it. It just works. It'll auto-update and never ask any question.
And Windows ... well, I personally have one application from approx. year 2000. It costed me some 3'500 $ and it does one thing better than any other application before or after it. That's why I like to keep it and use it once upon a time.
Can you show me at least one Linux which can still run 20 year old application?
Conclusion: I could easily replace my Mint and my Neon with Windows 10 at any time but, I could never replace my Windows with my Linux.
That's truth for many other users out there and that's definitely the reason for any company out there. If your operating system is not supporting some applications for 20, 30, 40 years, than you're using the wrong O/S.
Industry is not replacing their machinery every 5 years or building a new nuclear reactor every 10 years just because the O/S sucks.
62 • every linux (by Tim on 2019-05-01 09:43:41 GMT from United States)
Every Linux can run programs from the year 2000. You make a virtual machine, install a version of Linux from that era, and then put your software on and remove the network connection.
Since Debian and Ubuntu make versions dating back to 1997 available, and all required software is free, there’s no reason any Linux program becomes out of reach of anyone. I kind of like Gimp 1, so sometimes I play with it in a Debian Potato (2000) VM.
9.10 Karmic is my favorite old one, but for an odd reason. I still use it daily, having installed it recently on an iMac G4.
This computer lost graphics support after Debian Squeeze. I kept it going with NetBSD for years, but I decided eventually it should sit in my kitchen, show recipes, and play music. 9.10 is old enough its graphics work, and new enough it recognizes my banshee.db file. It also has all necessary codecs. Obviously it isn’t plugged into the internet.
63 • @dragonmouth (by John on 2019-05-01 11:36:03 GMT from Switzerland)
1. I think you have some problem with the fact that Ubuntu is much more popular than PCLinuxOS. God knows why?
2. "Ubuntu" is Swahili for "I don't know how to install Debian" - a very constructing argument, not to mention that, apparently, you are one of those who do not know how to install Debian.
3. "Each distro has its fans and its detractors." - Yes, unfortunately very true! Apparently, you are a detractor of Ubuntu. Again only God (and you!) knows why?
4. I, and probably many others, get sick reading such toxic and biased comments. For your information, Ubuntu is not a religion, it is a distro that is easy to use and, for some people, just works. Like PCLinuxOS for you. Is this difficult to understand?
Get your facts first; then you can distort them as much as you please. (Mark Twain)
64 • every linux (by manHattan on 2019-05-01 11:38:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Now imagine my grandma installing her favourite, 20 year old application.
In Windows 10:
Double click the installer, 2 ~ 3 times 'continue' (+ enter license nr.) and she's up and running.
Find which VM will run on her "freedom-flavour", find the corresponding download page, get the files, start looking for the guest additions, fiddle with sudo and permissions ... If she ever gets so far, she still has to find the download site for a 20-year old distro and try to get it installed, so she can start fiddling with application install, which will fail because the thing will not be able to get some strange dependency, from some strange server since it was discontinued 20 years ago and then, she'll only need ...
Linux doesn't work for the biggest part of humanity -- it's (sometimes) fine for (a couple of) freaks (or for the server).
I asked to show me which Linux can run 20 year old application and not for a workaround because it can't. EVERYTHING will run in a VM.
65 • @59: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-01 11:55:45 GMT from United States)
"I always go back to your despised *buntus."
Just because I don't "love it", I must "hate it" and "despise it"? Talk about an inferiority complex! All I said was that *buntus don't work for me". If I was to follow your logic I could say that you "despise" all those distros you mentioned at the beginning of your post. We all use what works for each one of us. I am not trying to convince you, or anybody else, to give up Ubuntu. If Ubuntu worked for everybody, then it would replace all other distros.
66 • @62 @64 Legacy (by void on 2019-05-01 12:19:22 GMT from Brazil)
"Now imagine my grandma installing her favourite, 20 year old application."
Microsoft Windows has been great supporting legacy applications. Linux is worse, but most static compiled applications works alright. Apple Macinstosh is way worse than anything else.
But please remember that sometimes open source WINE is better than MS Windows is this regard.
67 • @61: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-01 12:23:14 GMT from United States)
"Imagine I give MX to my grandma. Does it work out of the box?"
You never know. Your grandma could surprise you.
If MX doesn't work, maybe you should have given her PCLinuxOS. :-)
"Conclusion: MX doesn't work."
Only because you did not set it up correctly. MX can auto update just like Mint and other distros.
"Imagine I give current Linux Mint to my grandma."
Imagine auto-update screws up. Neither your grandma nor you will find out about it till later.
"If your operating system is not supporting some applications for 20, 30, 40 years, than you're using the wrong O/S."
Try reading MS Office 97 formatted files with the current version of MS Office.
68 • @67 (by dragonmouth) (by manHattan on 2019-05-01 12:59:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yeah, my grandma's surprising me over and over again! :) :) :)
"MX can auto update just like Mint and other distros." BUT, Mint's one click in settings is still much easier than:
(My grandma thoght, she prefers Windows anyway but, she can live with Mint too -- as long as she doesn't have to open some StarOffice files.) ;)
"Imagine auto-update screws up."
She found out herself that 'it never happened until now' and she thought, one doesn't even need that Timeshift function. Can you imagine??
"Try reading MS Office 97 formatted files with the current version of MS Office."
My grandma can read and speak -- She told me, I shouldn't care so much about.
First because it still works:
Second: She still has the original copy of MS Office 97 laying around and can install it with few simple clicks; without fiddling with VM's, dependencies and such. ;)
69 • @67 @68 The bright side of Linux. (by void on 2019-05-01 13:17:02 GMT from Brazil)
Every OS has its drawbacks.
In three months "Grandma´s fresh Windows" will be infected with malware, her Chrome will have an enormous collection of weird extensions (super search, ask etc), Acrobat reader will be complaining that it is out of date, the HP printer driver saying that the new ink cartridge isn´t original, startup and shutdown will take about 3 minutes, most programs that came along with "Youtube downloader" won´t uninstall, Norton software will try to sell another year of paid support and some other niceties.
Linx Mint will be fast, clean and functional just like the first day. The same is expected for the following years.
70 • not valid (by Tim on 2019-05-01 13:34:09 GMT from United States)
I'm sticking to my point here because I think your use case isn't valid. Which specific 20 year old program are you referring to? There's no discussing this in general because it's kind of program specific. Windows software often remains compatible, but doesn't always. Windows 7 was a train wreck for a lot of people with older peripherals that never got driver updates. Word 2007 screwed up a lot of people's Word 2003 and before documents.
In addition, most people using Linux don't need to use 20 year old software because most of our software is free. Do we have less compatibility? I guess, but it just isn't an issue because we don't have to pay for a new version of everything.
But as to your point, you don't have to be a "freak" to figure out how to use obsolete software on Linux. Virtualbox is pretty idiot proof. Presumably you remember using this software at some point, so you know what OS you used it on. Make a VM, install that OS, install the software. Done. And since copying the VM is trivial, you're actually now done forever, because when you get a new computer you just copy the VM.
71 • Every OS has its drawbacks (by manHattan on 2019-05-01 15:04:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Even setting up VirtualBox is just a few clicks away in Windows; not so under Linux.
"I'm sticking to my point here because I think your use case isn't valid." --> Those are exactly my words when somebody comes with setting up a VM because of unsuported SW. VMs need ressources too. It's not just: set it up.
On some 'normal' Laptop with 4GB RAM, you'll have a problem running Windows in VM and those ressources, the application should get.
"Which specific 20 year old program are you referring to?" --> It doesn't matter what's the name -- it's platform specific. It works on(~ly) all Windows, from Win98 ~ Win10.
Unix version of that program worked only in SGI workstations.
Linux (Mint) and Windows both do not work 100% for any HW and/or SW combination with one difference -- most problems are much easier solvable under Windows.
Windows complains but, a few clicks later, everything's fine:
Mint complains but, unsolvable or only if developer gets involved:
Same file in another application in Mint works (but, it's still Mint problem; they are the developer of that X-app):
Once the software doesn't install because it's too old; another time because it's too new ...
There's usually always some workaround but, Windows is better supported by manufacturers and the problems are easier solvable.
However, I completely agree with: "Every OS has its drawbacks."
72 • @71 The solution (by void on 2019-05-01 15:41:42 GMT from Brazil)
The solution is very simple, but almost impossible to implement.
We should have a standard base repository. I would suggest Debian Stable. Everything else would be built over it. Every distro would be only additional themes and minor customization. This way bug fixing and development would be kept with the same combination of libraries and software versions. It would vastly improve hardware compatibility and would create a standard that every developer could trust and invest its time and money.
There is no need for a separate Ubuntu repository. There is no need for Fedora, Arch, OpenSuse etc. I know it sounds like heresy, but this would lead Linux to another level.
A single standard stable long term support base. Every developer working on a single GNU/Linux base.
p.s. I´m no John Lennon fan :)
73 • @71 Weird color bug (by void on 2019-05-01 16:00:23 GMT from Brazil)
"Mint complains but, unsolvable or only if developer gets involved (...)Same file in another application in Mint works (but, it's still Mint problem; they are the developer of that X-app):"
I had the same bug with weird colors. The problems is not with Linux Mint. It happens in Xubuntu too. It´s a bug with "libvdpau-va-gl" accelerated video decoder. I just removed the library and fell back to software decoding.
This exemplifies my last post. Probably the library developer was never notified about the bug.
74 • typo, please correct. (by void on 2019-05-01 16:01:32 GMT from Brazil)
75 • What in the world is going on? (by Garon on 2019-05-01 16:44:04 GMT from United States)
A lot of funny comments and just plain wrong things being said. Example: " It works on(~ly) all Windows, from Win98 ~ Win10." There are many programs written for Windows NT, 98, Me, Vista, and so on that will not run under Windows 10. There are many PLC programs made for Windows 98, 2000, or anything after 7, that will not run under Windows 10, and the list can go on for a very long time. All this discussion means nothing. It's not beneficial in any way. Talking about grandmas running 20 year old programs, lol. Talking about setting VMs in different systems being so different? Nonsense. How in the world did discussions about proxies, new releases, and news in the open source world, turn into a playground squabble? Everyone just calm down.
76 • Thank (by Garon on 2019-05-01 16:46:43 GMT from United States)
Thanks. a very good tip.
77 • @72 void: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-01 17:39:43 GMT from United States)
"We should have a standard base repository."
Wasn't AppImage supposed to be the Universal Repository? At least for a while. Then Red Hat decided to have it their way with FlatPack and then Canonical got into the act with Snaps. Now we have three "Universal Packagers". If there are three of them, how can any be considered/called "Universal"?
78 • What is going on ... (by manHattan on 2019-05-01 17:43:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
@57 (by Garon)
"There are many programs written for Windows NT, 98, Me, Vista, and so on that will not run under Windows 10."
Yup -- with good reason. Those 'many' are either bad programmed or very close (deep) to system (example: anti-virus but, not only). Nobody sane would ever mention that kind of programs and complain if not working.
You need to learn reading 'between the lines' -- 'my grandma' is 95+ % of the human population -- see: @53 (by who-cares).
Did you ever try installing nVidia drivers in Windows, Ubuntu, Slackware, Gentoo and LFS? You must be genius if the process is 'the same' or 'just a little difference'. Or ...
Take Evolve OS (predecessor of Solus OS '2nd ed.'; the first one failed) and 'simply' install SQL Workbench.
Then you'll be allowed to give comments like: "setting (SOMETHING) in different systems being so different". ;)
However, I agree on 'Everyone just calm down'. It's easily solvable -- with a press of button on some other Linux, Mac, Windows ... Plan9.
@72 (by void)
That would be VERY nice ... the whole world working together, enjoy life together ... no more wars, hunger and disease ... Dreaming is (still) allowed (but, the filters will come). ;)
The issue is not less serious with deletion of 'libvdpau-va-gl'. The HW in case has Intel (disabled by the factory) and AMD (Fire PRO!!!) graphics. Mesa doesn't support it properly (despite being basically the same HW as the consumer cards) and Intel can't be activated.
Ubuntu/Mint doesn't offer auto-install (like in Mint 17) and one would have to try fiddling with manual install of Fire Pro drivers.
'Deletion workaround' might show the proper colors but, the HW acceleration gets lost -- it costs much more resources to render the same movie.
That's fine for the 'consumers' and their needs but, that's not a solution if you need your OS to the job done. There's always more behind it ... can anybody say what else will not work properly?
One can spend the weeks and months testing or one can take the O/S which works. The time is money!
79 • @77 (by void on 2019-05-01 17:57:12 GMT from Brazil)
Not the same thing. AppImage is just *another* method for installing an application. What I meant is a standard base system. But I agree that the same phenomenon of spliting intellectual labor occurs. There is no consensus.
Maybe Linux Foundation could create a standard that if some distro did not comply, coudn´t use the name "Linux".
One of the criteria would be sharing the SAME base repository that would have standard versions (the exact same binaries) of kernel, GNU libraries and utilities, Xorg server and libs, fonts, desktop environment etc.
Of course distros could add some applications of their own design like Linux Mint X-apps or OpenSuse´s YaST, but they all would comply with the standard base system, including configuration files.
80 • Common base (by Jesse on 2019-05-01 18:06:52 GMT from Canada)
@79: "What I meant is a standard base system."
It sounds like what you're suggesting is the Linux Standards Base (LSB) which strived to do just that for a while. It failed pretty terribly because A) it wasn't practical and B) no one wanted to put the effort into something that didn't offer a benefit and C) it anchored distros to a lowest common denominator preventing progress.
"Maybe Linux Foundation could create a standard that if some distro did not comply, couldn´t use the name "Linux"."
That basically flies entirely in the face of the whole free software/open source mindset. That would be a perfect way to make sure no one took the Linux Foundation seriously. It's also not much of a threat since most distros don't use the name Linux. In the top 30 distros on the PHR ranking here, I think only five use the term Linux in their name.
I'd also like to point out that licensing or putting standards on the name of a product is exactly what UNIX tried to do and, well, anyone who was around computing in the 80s and 90s knows how that turned out. UNIX fractured into a handful of incompatible forks.
"One of the criteria would be sharing the SAME base repository that would have standard versions (the exact same binaries) of kernel, GNU libraries and utilities, Xorg server and libs, fonts, desktop environment etc."
That works for families of distros (Debian's tree, Arch, Fedora, etc) that share goals and philosophies. But the various root distros are far too different in philosophy and approach to ever make a common base work.
81 • @78 (by void on 2019-05-01 18:08:06 GMT from Brazil)
"One can spend the weeks and months testing or one can take the O/S which works. The time is money!"
That´s why the idea I gave is advantageous.
In that example hardware acceleration usually works with Windows because the hardware developer creates the driver itself.
With a unified Linux base, open source drivers developers (and proprietary in some cases) could concentrate the effort and make sure their software works and would work for a certain amount of years.
What we have now is there are some developers working with Fedora, another one with Debian, others with Ubuntu and so on..
And worse, Fedora and Ubuntu releases new versions very quickly.
If we all choose Debian stable, for example, the Linux ecosystem would be a lot better for everyone.
82 • My thoughts on Ubuntu and the baby *buntus (by Distrowitch on 2019-05-01 18:12:44 GMT from United States)
In my experience over a number of years the LTS releases are polished and work well. The releases pushed out every six months with only a nine month supported life are very much hit or miss. When I got an HP x2 Detachable 10 in the fall of 2016 I needed to run the regular versions to have any prayer of getting all the hardware to work. My results were generally good but not bug free or anywhere close to it. Once 18.04 LTS (Bionic Badger) was out everything was supported and that release has been absolutely solid for me.
Needless to say, I am not surprised by the issues in the new review. As always, YMMV.
83 • @80 (by void on 2019-05-01 18:13:50 GMT from Brazil)
(...)It failed pretty terribly because
A) it wasn't practical
I did´n say it is easy.
B) no one wanted to put the effort into something that didn't offer a benefit
There is vast benefit as I posted before.
C) it anchored distros to a lowest common denominator preventing progress.
That why species evolve slowly. It is safer and creates a better being/product.
84 • an easier option (by void on 2019-05-01 18:21:03 GMT from Brazil)
Only if Ubuntu abandoned their repository and started using unmodified Debian stable repository things would get a little better. They could increment their desktop while keeping the base system and contribute to Debian´s bug fixes.
85 • @80: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-01 19:06:18 GMT from United States)
You omitted "D" - One version wonder developers would not get their 15 minutes of fame.
"That basically flies entirely in the face of the whole free software/open source mindset. "
It MAY be Linux's strength but it is also its big Achilles' heel.
IF a concerted effort was made, something could be worked out. The problem is the egos involved. Every developer wants it done "his way" and it is the others that should compromise. If the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland can come to some kind of a compromise, so can the various distro developers.
86 • ubuntu qualities (by Tim on 2019-05-01 19:26:29 GMT from United States)
I'm no longer sure what point you're trying to make. You seem to be trying to say that Windows supports older programs for longer than Linux, and that this makes Windows inherently better. This isn't something that can be discussed in the generic. Why is "someone's grandmother" stuck running a 20 year old program and what program is it? There are ways to deal with the problem in all ecosystems and which is the easiest is hard to say without specifics.
This hasn't been my experience. I think whether a release is polished or not is extremely hardware specific (17.10 artful being the extreme case- it bricked some Thinkpads and was fantastic on many other systems) and that a lot of this depends on upstream kernel releases and how many changes are going on in Debian unstable for the 6 months preceding the release.
If I was lucky enough for either 16.04 LTS or 18.04 LTS to be flawless on any of my machines I'd still be using them. But that wasn't the case. 17.04, 17.10, and 18.10 were good enough that if they weren't EOL I would still be using them.
87 • @72, We??? (by Why me? on 2019-05-01 23:30:29 GMT from France)
Who is "we"? Back in my young days they asked: Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Or is it the royal command "We". There's no "we" in Linux. There's you and me and a lot of other people around the world building, using, enjoying, praising or bitching about a particular set of open source software that allows you to do with it what you want: no software kings, CEOs, or tyrants. (Except maybe wannabe King Richard the Stallman.) Linux is not broken. It works just like it's supposed to, with variety and innovation. So grandma can't install some paleolithic piece of software. (PPOS) The stockholders will be pissed. Wait! There are no stockholders, so screw grandma! (I can say it and can do it, since I am grandpa.) Linus is an enormous success, but it holds only a small percentage on the desktop. So what? It's not a competition. Just because I use something doesn't mean that everyone else should use it, or even be able to use. There is no "we". There's me and you and whoever else wants to make just a little effort.
88 • @83 Evolve OS? (by Why me? on 2019-05-02 00:11:32 GMT from France)
"That's why species evolve slowly. It is safer and creates a better being/product." Evolution is the result of random gene mutations, the great majority of which are failures.
89 • Progress (by void on 2019-05-02 09:34:59 GMT from Brazil)
May I ask you people: in which parts Linux is achieving more progress/innovation? Is in the kernel, base system, graphics stack, UI toolkits, desktop environment or desktop applications?
90 • @89 Linux Progress (by Angel on 2019-05-02 11:28:55 GMT from Philippines)
If by progress you mean numbers, the desktop is lagging, but as I type this on Windows 10 (And I like and need Windows 10) I wish I could use the latest Plasma desktop. Maybe one of these days? Other than that, Linux is everywhere, from IoT to Supercomputers. Maybe one way to measure progress is to look at previous enemies of Linux and how they've come around. If you go to the Microsoft Store on Windows 10, there are several versions of Linux to download for use on Windows, not just Ubuntu,) Can't get a GUI yet without major tweaking and may not run very well, but I'm sure it's coming.
In other news:
Now MS does not do things out of the goodness of their heart, so they must see the future coming. And that's progress.
91 • To manHatten - MX Linux vs. Linux Mint (by Rick on 2019-05-02 12:08:39 GMT from United States)
If you've been using Linux say for at least 5-10 years, you ahould know that any distro based on Debian, Red Hat, Slackware or Arch is not for grandmas, relatives or acquaintances. Being based on Debian, MX Linux is an intermediate level distro for those who have a working knowledge of Linux. Just about anything based on Ubuntu is a beginner level distro. If someone is not willing to invest some time to learn the fundamentals of Linux they should just stay with Windows:
"Microsoft Windows: A collection of 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit O.S. originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor written by a 2 bit company who can't stand 1 bit of competition."
And since Linux is primarily based on its precursor Unix, which started development in 1969, Unix/Linux has been around much longer than Windows 1.0 which was released in November 1985. And for those who don't know Microsoft history, Bill Gates stated in the late 1990s that the only reason they continued selling Windows was because it was a money maker. At the same time, the Microsoft chairman used Linux on his dekstop!
92 • Linux vs. Windows (by manHattan on 2019-05-02 15:14:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm trying to say that Windows supports most of the old programs, all current ones and will support most of the future ones. Linux supports none of the old ones, none of the future ones and sometimes not even the current ones (Inkscape, Shutter ... in Fedora being a nice example). Better is what's working or needs less effort to get the same thing done.
@75, @86 & @87
Why 20-year old program? Is such 20-year old program obsolete just 'cause it's 20-year old?
No, not stockholder will get pissed; you'll get pissed. It's your machines, a couple of millions worth, which run your business and make your existence.
But there's an easy way to deal with the problem -- you simply throw the perfectly well working machinery and get yourself a brand new that'll produce exactly the same result -- but hey, it'll get stuck on some paleolithic piece of software in a few years from now.
Linux is everywhere except on Desktop. Linux is where it should be. Somewhere where nobody sees it. On a server.
Debian, RedHat and Slackware make good servers. Arch and Gentoo make a good problem. Ubuntu is declining but, it's still the only Linux worth consideration. All good software comes from the third parties. All third party software comes for Windows and only sometimes for Ubuntu and almost never for anything else.
Nobody sane is ready to invest 'some' time to recreate the non-working software for himself only to be able to get the job done.
Workarounds over some VM's are valid for some server farms but, not for some small companies and never for the rest of 'normal users'. Just exactly why one should setup a Linux, to be able to set up a VM, to be able to set up a virtual server, to be able to set up the application if one can simply take the Windows and get it up and running with few clicks and in a couple of minutes?
If you have a problem with "the time is money", maybe you understand "the time lost on fixing the unnecessary is your lifetime" that's gone and nobody's ever gonna give it back to you.
Since 1969, "You Nix". :) :) :)
[nix noun / Definition of nix: nothing (Merriam-Webster)]
One can ignore the facts but, nobody can change them.
93 • @92 Sad but is true. (by void on 2019-05-02 15:41:20 GMT from Brazil)
"Debian, RedHat and Slackware make good servers. Arch and Gentoo make a good problem. Ubuntu is declining but, it's still the only Linux worth consideration."
This decribes perfectly the Linux world. It´s clear that the software/hardware industry knows about it. I would add that Fedora is still relevant for kernel and Gnome 3 development.
What do you think will happen once Ubuntu desktop is over? Chrome OS?
94 • All views here keep converging to broad truths. (by Rowan Henley on 2019-05-02 17:31:09 GMT from United States)
Not much desktop use for Linux.
Linux requires much knowledge and often adjusting.
So Windows is more practical.
But Windows is spyware.
Linux too is going the spyware route (Android).
All OSs keep abandoning the simple old ways for no obvious advantage.
Things are getting worse, no end in sight.
95 • RE: 52 Salix and MasterPDFEditor (5.4.04) (by deNiros on 2019-05-03 12:44:02 GMT from Belgium)
In Salix in the repo Master PDF Editor is still version 3, yes. But it is very easy to install the 5.x series, since there is a slackbuild for it.
And on salix that's just typing : "sudo spi -i MasterPDFEditor", and you've got your version 5.4.04 of that program.
96 • Windows installation (by Dxvid on 2019-05-03 13:26:27 GMT from Sweden)
@53 Windows takes much longer to install and to get working well with codecs and drivers.
I've clocked it both when I do it myself, and for beginners.
It took about 30min with Linux to install and configure for media codecs if I did it myself, while it took about 10h to install and configure Windows plus drivers plus codecs plus applications plus updates. The extreme time difference is because all drivers are included in the most common Linux distros plus Windows updates take forever both to download and to install, while they only take a few minutes in Linux. Linux also requires no restart if you add the updated repos while installing the first time, while Windows requires restarts for drivers, codecs and windows updates several times!
The only reason why you believe windows is easier or more user friendly is because someone else installed your drivers, codecs, applications, windows updates and windows OS. Windows is not a user friendly OS, quite the opposite.
I also tried clocking when my 60+ year old father installed OpenSUSE Linux and VLC with all codecs needed to watch modern video formats and encrypted DVDs, it took him less than 1h the first time ever he tried Linux. I didn't help him in any way just to see if he would get stuck, he only used google. He had only used Windows and DOS previous to that moment. My father is the type of computer user that asks his sons for advice when purchasing, choosing software or solving problems so not tech-savvy.
So basically any average computer user can install Linux and configure codecs in less than 1h.
97 • Truth be told (by Frank on 2019-05-03 13:30:03 GMT from Canada)
For the last 20 years people have been predicting the end of Linux on the desktop, even if Ubuntu were to end tomorrow some other distro would fill the vacuum. There are plenty of user friendly ditro's, PCLinuxOS, Mageia, even Fedora and openSUSE have gone out of there way to be more user friendly.
98 • @58 (by Ostrol on 2019-05-03 13:52:31 GMT from Poland)
"Windows is not the most popular O/S because it is the best or because its apps are the best. It is because, for a long time, Windows the only O/S easily available."
Windows became popular, not only because it was the only OS available at that time, but also because, it sort of allowed people in the world to crack it, that is, to create "pirated" copies of it and the main app, MS Office. That made people, offices, government and private offices get addicted to it. Practically all offices, schools in the world can't do without MS Office, especially the 3 main apps - Word, Excel and Powerpoint. Even, the MacOS users are also addicted to MS Office. Even, the Linux users are addicted to MS Office.
All open-source Office apps, or even the closed source office apps for Linux runs after MS Office, trying to match it, always few steps behind. Even, those developers are addicted to MS Office, fixated by it.
And, that is the standard, whether we like it or not.
99 • Linux (by void on 2019-05-03 13:59:42 GMT from Brazil)
We all know that Linux is a better platform than Windows. That is not the point. If every personal computer came with Linux Mint installed people would be much happier with their computers and would not complain that much.
The problem is that Ubuntu keeps insisting in a 6 month release cycle and bets on Gnome Shell/Unity desktop.
Ubuntu with only LTS releases (2 year interval) with a "standard" Cinnamon desktop would be an enormous success. Two simple measures that would make big difference.
(Please listen Canonical people! Save the Linux desktop!)
100 • MX 18.2 x64 (by greybo on 2019-05-03 14:27:36 GMT from United States)
Have used Torrents and two mirrors but have not been able to boot MX 18.2 x64. The first screen reports error: unknow file system.
On a Dell Latitude laptop. Used dd to create the live USB. Never had any similar problem with any distro.
Pressing the Enter key produces a menu but none of the selections produces anything other than the error message.
Joined the MX forum but cannot find any way to ask for help.
101 • MX errors (by Jordan on 2019-05-03 15:10:39 GMT from United States)
@100 .. I have made it a routine to use my gparted disc to format my hd prior to new distro install.
Ext4. Then go from there with the installation disc.
102 • @96 • Windows installation (by Dxvid) (by manHattan on 2019-05-03 15:18:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
You 're absolutely right. That's exactly how it was 10, 15 years ago and that might still be the case if you're trying to install Windows 10 on some Pentium III.
But let's be fair:
antiX 19 installs on my machines in approx. 3 ~ 5 min. The Biggest part of that time was the time I needed to type in the user names, passwords ... or decide on which option to use.
Windows 10 takes some 1/2 an hour. Rebooting '1001' time inclusive.
On the other side, what drivers did it miss? Biometric and UMTS module. All the rest was there and also working out of the box. Without those 'missing' drivers, fingerprint or face recognition wouldn't work and I wouldn't be able to use Sierra Wireless module -- so what? It never worked in any Linux out-of-the-box neither.
Codecs? Which codecs Linux has that Windows is missing? No matter what, HEIVC, HEIF/HEIC ... they are all out of the box on my Windows. Netflix in 4K your father will not get running on his OpenSUSE until the rest of his life -- and he can consider himself lucky if the other codecs that he installed, don't kill his machine, or that updater doesn't update it so, that no btrfs-recovery will help (which happened to one of my clients).
When it comes to update and reboots, yes, Windows reboots somewhat more often but, actually not at all that much.
Whenever you update your Linux, it'll not ask for the reboot but, it'll not use the updated components (system close like gcc, Grub, Kernel ...) as long as you didn't reboot -- not so much real difference to Windows.
I personally have no problem with reboots -- I reboot every day -- my Linux, my Mac, my Windows.
Also, Windows learned in the meanwhile -- it's auto-updating, auto-antivirus-scanning ... in the background and while you work. All you get is a notice that you should reboot or that it (again, since many years of use) didn't find anything.
But -- there's a catch in all of it. One Windows you don't need to install -- NEVER in your life. It came preinstalled and a couple of years later, the new computer will arrive with a fresh copy of it. Since you don't buy some 500£ junk but, the computer (2500+ £), the manufacturer will also not fill it with some games and other rubbish and you'll even have 3-years of 48-hour warranty. After that, you have a new computer anyway. Exactly as you've mentioned:
“The only reason why you believe windows is easier or more user-friendly is because someone else installed your drivers, codecs, applications, windows updates and windows OS.”
People who need to get the work done, don't spend their time on self-installing aVoid on a 15-year-old computers and don't rely on some backyard-hobby-anti-what-not-team.
103 • Ubuntu Mate (by willnay98 on 2019-05-03 16:22:40 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu needs to abandon the wide release of interim releases. The flavors are forced to follow this foolish release cycle but with far fewer resources. Those releases should not be used by everyday people or for critical applications. Stick with the LTS releases and wait about 6 months after they are released to maintain your sanity.
104 • @102 People who need to get the work done... (by Akoy on 2019-05-03 17:32:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
"People who need to get the work done, don't spend their time on self-installing aVoid on a 15-year-old computers and don't rely on some backyard-hobby-anti-what-not-team."
In my 6+ year old Pentium laptop that came with Win 8 is long time with Win 10 Insider (meaning somewhat testing and rolling) boots quicker and apps works snappier. That's for work.
Of course, I use some Linuxes in the evenings, you know, some backyard-hobby work.
105 • @98 OstroL: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-03 19:28:02 GMT from United States)
Whether pirated or legitimate from Redmond, my point still stands. Windows was the only O/S readily available. MS did not vigorously pursue the pirates because each copy of even pirated Windows increased their footprint on the personal computer environment.
"That made people, offices, government and private offices get addicted to it. "
If that is the only O/S available, are you "addicted to it" or are you forced to use it. From 1945 until the mid-1980s were Polish people addicted to communism or was communism forced on them?
106 • @99, Ubuntu LTS with Cinnamon (by Why me? on 2019-05-04 01:55:02 GMT from France)
Have you ever heard of Linux Mint? Or if you want to get a fancier default, try Feren OS. You don't seem to understand what Linux is about. "Gimme this! Gimme that!" Anyone, including you, is welcome to use the Ubuntu LTS base and create a distro with any DE they want. Put up, or you know thew alternative.
107 • work/play @104 (by Angel on 2019-05-04 02:22:14 GMT from Philippines)
Funny, because it's the opposite here. Most serious work, gets done on Linux. Windows is there mostly for play. I also have a 6-year-old laptop running Windows 10, it dual-boots with most latest Linuxes just as snappily, if not more. I also just donated a 13+year-old Gateway AMD Turion laptop snappily running Linux. WIndows 10 would run, not so snappily, but can't get the Radeon Express 200M driver to work, compatibility mode or not. Linux open source driver works fine.
108 • Work and 'work' (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 05:25:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
@106 (by Why me?)
I am using Linux Mint most of the time (more than Mac / Windows).
"Most serious work, gets done on Linux."
Might be truth for some, somewhere and sometimes. Might be truth for you or for me personally. It's not truth for the most. Or maybe, all those computers I see everywhere I go, just have some Windows Skin installed on their Linuxes? Who knows ...
Sure you can write some letter in Writer, just as you can do it in Word. Sure you can make a graphic in Inkscape, just as you can do it in Illustrator. Sure you can edit a photograph in Gimp, just as you can do it in Photoshop.
Apart from all those open source software being light years behind their counterparts, assuming the exactly same result could be achieved with open source software, can one really use it for a serious work? One CAN'T.
It's not only the end result that counts. If some agency asks you for a .psd you have to give them what they want or somebody else is gonna do it.
If you must use some application xyz that depends on Word, you must use the Word. It doesn't matter if you can achieve the same with mno and qpr.
If they ask you for .ai, you have to give them Illustrator file and not Inkscape export, not Affinity export, not Corel Draw export, not Xara export ... they all might or might not work, they all differ slightly.
As long as you live in your own world, you can use whatever you want but, as soon as you are in corporate world, you have to do what one expects from you.
Open source driver might work fine but ... assuming you have some CAD software that is certified that it'll work under your FirePro 2025xyz, and only together with a driver version 010101quark (available for Windows only, of course), are we going to challenge our "on good luck" or take the Windows? Namely, if you ask CAD S/W maker for the warranty/support, all you'll get is one -- sorry but ... That's truth for Windows just as it's truth for Linux or Mac. There are certain certified application which will work only under predefined SW & HW combinations.
109 • @108, (by Ling Po on 2019-05-04 06:21:54 GMT from Greece)
I think you miss the point. The assertions were that Linux is just a hobby OS. Not everyone is an architect or engineer, or office worker, or graphic artist who need CAD, MS Office or Photoshop, though that last can still be Apple's province. People work at many other things. Windows still is and probably will be for a few years, boss of the office. But not for everyone. The point was made earlier that Microsoft is incorporating Linux in Windows. Why do you think? Probably because most coders prefer it, not for hobbies, but for creating software, even for Microsoft. Aside from that, see where the world is heading not all the way there yet, but soon:
110 • About oranges and pears (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 07:41:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
@108 (by Ling Po)
With all due respect, I think you are the one missing the point(~s).
Not everyone is an architect or engineer, or office worker, or graphic artist who need CAD, MS Office or Photoshop or ... but for (almost) everyone, Windows is (almost always) a better choice, from one reason or another.
Assuming you're a web developer. All you need is XAMPP, Filezilla, Meld, Web Browser and (Adobe) Brackets or (Microsoft) VS Code. All of them are available for all three platforms. Windows wins. If you'd be using Linux or Mac, you'd have to run Windows VM because of IE & Edge.
Virtualization ... every existing hypervisor is available for every platform except one -- Hyper-V runs only on Windows.
I could continue forever but, I think, you understand what I want to say.
Microsoft is incorporating Linux in Windows and giving many patents to the Linux foundation. Actually, Microsoft is one of the biggest donators, if not the biggest one. Why do you think? Because the Microsoft is earning half of their money with Linux. They're doing it for themselves, not because of you or me.
And don't forget -- they didn't donate anything that would change the things for better for you and me -- MS Office, the 'Cash cow', they didn't donate. ;)
The world is heading, where the world is heading. The world is heading towards more money.
It's ridiculous to mention a dozen online applications against of thousands of (not yet) online ones, that are here in game. One day maybe ...
Also, it's ridiculous to compare some web app with a local app. The differences in functionality and performance are to big as of a moment. But again, one day maybe ...
Until then, Windows wins (almost) any comparison.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm by no means and definitely not the Linux hater or Windows fanboy. I'm giving donations to couple of open source projects and my main computer runs on Linux.
111 • @105 Windows popularity (by OstroL on 2019-05-04 09:14:21 GMT from Poland)
If you give a product/service free, people get used to it, and get addicted to it. If you can't give it free for some reason, you make sure people get it somehow free, and once people are addicted to it, you can charge for it. The same goes with cigarettes, drugs, alcohol etc -- the first time you get it free, specially at schools.
It was interesting to use "pirated" Windows, especially MS Office, which is the best MS product up to today. I strongly believe that MS let that "piracy" happen, even helped it to happen.
Anyway, there's nothing to beat MS Office -- everyone, the user and the open-source developer -- runs after it. The easiest way to use MS Office by using Windows. LibreOffice is okay, but most times bring in headaches.
Btw, don't assume I am a Pole, just because I live/write from there. That's one of the problems here, assumption. Also, don't talk about commies, just knowing the other side, the so-called "democratic" dictatorship, where an ordinary nutty can become the prez.
112 • interim releases (by Tim on 2019-05-04 10:41:38 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu is very clear about the differences between the interim and LTS releases. If you're happy with the LTS releases, don't install the interim.
I think having them is one of the major features of Ubuntu. Before I switched full time to Ubuntu MATE I was running Debian Testing. I had used various stable Debian releases, but the pace of development of desktop software in the past ten years meant that running two year old copies of LibreOffice or Kodi meant being seriously behind.
Debian testing is awesome until suddenly it isn't. It's not meant to be for users, it's meant for developers, and somewhere in the middle of the cycle a huge architectural change can get made and it totally messes your use case up.
Ubuntu Interim releases are the perfect compromise. They're only 6 months old, so they're up to date, but they're not going to make major changes after release. Are they as stable as Debian Stable? No, but that's a tradeoff I'm more than willing to take.
I don't think getting rid of them really helps the community spins either. Martin Wimpress is very clear that the work he does on the interim releases then gets backported into the previous LTS (ie, 18.10 work is used to augment 18.04.2.) Since Debian unstable is constantly changing, they have to keep up with the changes anyway or making the LTS would be hard.
113 • ,A110, @ Oranges and pears indeed. (by Ling Po on 2019-05-04 10:42:22 GMT from United States)
Since we are talking about desktop software, and since Linux only holds maybe 2% of the desktop while Windows owns 80%, I don't know just what is it you are arguing? Most software is written for Windows. Many things run better on Windows. Many things run only on Windows. There! That doesn't make Linux unsuitable for work, nor the other 18% that use something else. There are many out there using it productively. Red Hat and others do okay, and there are many others out there using it productively. I don't need Windows for work, but I do use it for some things outside work that it does better for me.
Lots of debatable stuff in your posts, but for somewhere other than here. One thing: About IE and Edge, they are being replaced by a Chromium-based browser. There's the future again. I've been a Windows insider since before 10 was released. Actually. I like the old Edge better.
114 • @111, Really? (by Ling Po on 2019-05-04 10:48:52 GMT from United States)
The WIndows and Office drugs? Come on! Really! Linux is given away free, and they did try pushing it. I remember the CDs attached to magazines back when. How come it didn't take? Maybe Microsoft gives you a better high?
115 • @114 (by OstroL on 2019-05-04 11:28:11 GMT from Poland)
There are many ways of giving something free. Some give as free beer, but you can't drink it too much, likewise not everything as good exactly free. But, when you don't give it exactly free, but give you ways to get it free, even if that getting-free is sort of tackled for show, you try to get it. The best time was with XP. You could even hack it to make mini-XP, micro-Xp etc. The whole world got addicted to XP. Then, you were given a amnesty period. Some took it, some didn't. Now, you get it with any laptop at a silly (hidden) price ~10$. But, what is really sold is the MS Office suite, as a subscription. Google is the only one, who is really fighting that Office matter, with its Chromebook. (If you are in US, you'd know that chromebook is attacking the schools.) For the Mac, there's an official MS Office, but not for Linux. The less than 2% use of it is nothing to worry about, but the Linux based, and non-Linux Chromebook is a problem for MS.
Anyway, there's nothing much to argue about. We cannot beat Windows on desktop use. Cannonical understood that and moved away from the desktop. Of course, it releases Ubuntu and the derivatives, but the interest is not there. (I've been with Ubuntu since 4.10) Red Hat is sold. Non-business-like guys are still hanging out, Mint, Manjaro etc. They get donations, or sell something to stay alive. The Budgie DE creator dropped out citing personal matters. Cairo dock is not been touched for years. Lovely dock AWN cannot be installed a long time ago. Gnome is trying to make users not have functions. And so on. All this time, Windows is listening to users; dropped Win 8, brought back the start menu, stopped upgrades when users complained. And, so on...
Sorry to say, Linux desktop distro is still in the tinker's area. Some tinkerer distros such as Manjaro, Mint, MX Linux still have a following. But, I still like to have Linux around, for I too am a tinkerer.
116 • @113 (by Ling Po) (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 11:58:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Did anybody here ever said that Linux was unsuitable for work?
Most servers on this world run on Linux.
All that was said here was, that Windows on desktop is more suitable for the most people on this planet and that most people don't care for the O/S (which also includes, that they don't care for which O/S is better or better suitable, since they just don't care).
117 • @116: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-04 12:32:56 GMT from United States)
"Did anybody here ever said that Linux was unsuitable for work?"
You did! Maybe not in so many words but you are pushing Windows very hard as the only O/S worth using. As an example, you insist that Windows is great because it can run 20 year old software. Who wants to run 20 year old software?! It is archaic, lacks features users need and is full of security holes, especially if it is 20 year old Windows software. Quit living in the past. Join the rest of the world in the new millennium.
118 • @,116, confused? (by Ling Po on 2019-05-04 12:39:40 GMT from Greece)
You seem a bit confused. You responded to posts aimed at someone else.
@106 (by Why me?)
"I am using Linux Mint most of the time (more than Mac / Windows)." The post you reply to was aimed at @99, so unless you are also posting as Void, it had nothing to do with you.
Most serious work, gets done on Linux.
[End of Quote]
Yea. That was me, but I was talking about what I do, not what everybody else does. I was also replying to this post from @104: "People who need to get the work done, don't spend their time on self-installing aVoid on a 15-year-old computers and don't rely on some backyard-hobby-anti-what-not-team."
In my 6+ year old Pentium laptop that came with Win 8 is long time with Win 10 Insider (meaning somewhat testing and rolling) boots quicker and apps works snappier. That's for work.
Of course, I use some Linuxes in the evenings, you know, some backyard-hobby work.
[End of quote.]
The words in quotes (") are yours..
If you don't care which OS is more suitable, why are you making all these post about the superiority of Windows?
119 • @115: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-04 12:58:09 GMT from United States)
"Sorry to say, Linux desktop distro is still in the tinker's area."
I guess that is why the Spanish state of Catalonia is using Linux on all its PCs. That is why they have even developed their own distro. IIRC, the City of Munich has switched from Windows to Linux a few years ago. Many other governments at all levels are walking away from Windows and replacing it with Linux. Many more universities and colleges are using Linux than Windows.
"Windows is listening to users; dropped Win 8"
Surely you jest! Window only listens to its accountants. Win 8 was disaster. It wasn't selling so MS pulled a plug on it. The only time MS listens to the users is when it spies on them.
On second thought, you may be right. The question is whether MS is listening to the users when it incorporates Linux features, such as Power Shell, into its products or does it recognize that those features are better than those in Windows. Actually, the incorporating of Linux features is part of Microsoft's continuing attempt to "embrace, extend, extinguish" Linux.
120 • @119 (by Akoy on 2019-05-04 13:30:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
"The question is whether MS is listening to the users when it incorporates Linux features, such as Power Shell, into its products or does it recognize that those features are better than those in Windows. Actually, the incorporating of Linux features is part of Microsoft's continuing attempt to "embrace, extend, extinguish" Linux."
Does one have to fight something that has less than 2% of the desktop market? That's waste of energy!
The thing is, no one cares about the OS as far as it gets the work done. The smartphone works, and it is Android, but does anyone care Android is based on Gentoo Linux? It gets the work done. But, would Office work in Linux? Would Autocad work in Linux? Would Archicad work in Linux? Would 3D Max work in Linux? No!
Well, would Blender, Gimp, VLC, Bleachbit, LibreOffice etc work in Windows? Yes!
And, they work much better in Windows. Why?
121 • @118 confused numbers (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 14:13:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I didn't get confused, just some numbers got confused during copy & paste. ;)
True, that was a part of 'what should have been the answer @99' but, it got (incompletely) deleted ... some sort of typo, if you want. One can't correct it, once it went away. :(
@107 was by Angel, who claimed using Windows for playing and the most serious part of his work gets done by Linux and I was replying that it's only him who can do most serious work on Linux -- but, that he is not the world. The most of the world can't do it or simply doesn't care.
That qoute ("Most serious work, gets done on Linux.") was also from Angel and was quoted in my reply.
"If you don't care which OS is more suitable, why are you making all these post about the superiority of Windows?"
You are reading it wrong. ;) :)
Did I say I don't care or did I say the most people don't care?
122 • @117 Living in the past :) :) :) (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 14:18:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
"You did! ... As an example, you insist that Windows is great because it can run 20 year old software. Who wants to run 20 year old software?! It is archaic, lacks features users need and is full of security holes, especially if it is 20 year old Windows software. Quit living in the past. Join the rest of the world in the new millennium."
@117 (dragonmoth) Can you understand the difference between 'less suitable' and 'unsuitable'? ;) :)
However, 20-year old software support IS ESSENTIAL or you can't take the O/S serious. The answer why is in @61 & @92.
[Industry is not replacing their machinery every 5 years ... just because the O/S sucks.]
[... machines, a couple of millions worth ... your existence. But there's an easy way to deal with the problem -- you simply throw the perfectly well working machinery and get yourself a brand new that'll produce exactly the same result -- but hey, it'll get stuck on some paleolithic piece of software in a few years from now.]
123 • @119 (by dragonmouth) (by manHattan on 2019-05-04 14:32:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
"... the City of Munich has switched from Windows to Linux a few years ago ..."
You must be living on Cloud 7. Linux is dead in München.
"... that is why the Spanish state of Catalonia is using Linux on all its PCs. That is why they have even developed their own distro."
Their "own distro" has a name: Zorin (== redesigned Ubuntu).
Will check in a couple of years if it's still there ... probably just as LiMux. ;)
124 • 2 per cent (by Jesse on 2019-05-04 14:54:16 GMT from Canada)
@120: "Does one have to fight something that has less than 2% of the desktop market? That's waste of energy!"
Whenever I see people make comments like this it makes me suspect they do not appreciate the scale involved. 2-3% of the desktop market is in the range of 60-100 million computers. A license for Windows Home costs $140 USD, according to the Microsoft (Canada) website. Were MS to win back all those Linux users as paying customers, it would mean a gross increase in revenue of $11.2 billion. That's per release cycle. In 25 years that's in the ballpark of $56 billion, based on a five year upgrade cycle. For "just" 2% of the desktop market.
You can probably imagine that companies would do a fair amount of fighting for that kind of money. And that's just the desktop market. What gets used on the desktop usually ends up in the server room (that's a big part of how Red Hat and Ubuntu ended up being used on the server side so much). Around half of the world's web servers run on Linux and you can bet companies like MS would like to have that share.
125 • Linux 2-3% vs Windows (by Jordan on 2019-05-04 15:43:10 GMT from United States)
Those numbers are a hair-standing eye opener!
126 • @ 124 - 2% (by OstroL on 2019-05-04 16:58:04 GMT from Poland)
The thing is no one really buy Windows these days, they get it with the laptop, or even the desktop, and it costs about $10 OEM. No laptop producer would pay 140 CAN for his laptops, or he'd go bankrupt. Also, if one wants to buy the license, you can buy a used one.
Anyway, a new Windows pro is about 39USD and Windows Home is about 26USD at a reseller here. The used ones are even less.
127 • 2% (by Jesse on 2019-05-04 17:45:09 GMT from Canada)
@126: Okay, let's assume Windows is only going for $10 through OEMs and no one buys it retail (which I happen to know is not the case). That's still a billion dollars per upgrade cycle. And that doesn't include related software such as MS Office, which brings in billions per year in sales. No matter how you want to cut it, 2% of the desktop market represents multiple billions of dollars, just for sales of Windows and Office per year. No one wants to leave that kind of money on the table.
128 • @Jesse: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-04 18:31:51 GMT from United States)
It all depends on the spin. The number "2%-3%" can be disdainfully dismissed as statistically insignificant in comparison to MS share of the market. Just a bunch of geeks hiding in the basement, playing with their boutique O/S. But when the "2%-3%" is translated into an actual number, all of a sudden it becomes significant. Many of the world's major companies do not have 60-100 million users/customers.
129 • @ 127 • 2% by Jesse (by OstroL on 2019-05-04 19:58:20 GMT from Poland)
I understand 2% is a massive amount, if it is a 2% of a massive amount is sold.
There are very few dedicated Linux only desktops/laptops to prove that so many millions of only Linux users. If the Linux user had installed Linux on a former Windows laptop, he/she had paid for the Windows anyway. The Linux users that had not paid for Windows are those, who had bought a dedicated Linux computer, or those, who built a desktop and installed only Linux. All those others, who dual boot or who uninstalled Windows to install Linux had paid for the copy of Windows, OEM or not.
Practically, all those who come here have paid for the Windows copy that is there or that was there in their laptops.
130 • Windows tax (by Jesse on 2019-05-04 20:06:55 GMT from Canada)
@129: >> "Practically, all those who come here have paid for the Windows copy that is there or that was there in their laptops.
That is practically true for people when they first migrate from Windows to Linux, but you're missing the time factor. As I pointed out in my previous posts, the issue isn't a one-time thing, it's an ongoing cycle. Once people switch to Linux they get off the Windows upgrade cycle. They're often not buying new computers every five years or, if they do, they typically buy computers without Windows pre-installed (either via a Linux PC or an OS-less machine).
Those people usually are not in the MS upgrade cycle and, even if they do buy Windows PCs and wipe them, they're not buying Office and all the other MS software that people usually get. So, once again, even if many people are paying the Windows tax on new hardware (and many are not) they still aren't contributing money toward things like MS-Office, which again costs Microsoft billions in revenue.
Why do you think Microsoft spent so much time fighting Linux in the 90s and early 2000s? It was because they didn't want to lose literal billions to the desktop market and, as people migrated, billions more in the server market.
131 • @ 130 (by Pierre on 2019-05-04 20:35:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Once people switch to Linux they get off the Windows upgrade cycle. They're often not buying new computers every five years or, if they do, they typically buy computers without Windows pre-installed (either via a Linux PC or an OS-less machine)."
Well, there is no 2%, not even 1%, maybe something like 0.02% or less. The amount of Linux only computers that didn't have Windows in it before are so small, it is insignificant.
"Those people usually are not in the MS upgrade cycle and, even if they do buy Windows PCs and wipe them, they're not buying Office and all the other MS software that people usually get. So, once again, even if many people are paying the Windows tax on new hardware (and many are not) they still aren't contributing money toward things like MS-Office, which again costs Microsoft billions in revenue."
They have paid for Windows, the OS, and that's what counts. The amount of Linux users had not paid for Windows is so small, it is insignificant for Microsoft to worry about. Microsoft won't fight Linux, for it is not a competitor for the desktop/laptop.
132 • replacements (by Tim on 2019-05-05 02:05:37 GMT from United States)
The part of Jesse’s comments I wish I could shout from the rooftops is the part about getting out of the upgrade cycle. We have a 2008 Core Duo machine powering our media center. It has never even occurred to anyone in my family that it should be upgraded. That machine’s replacements have probably been replaced at least twice now in whatever environment it was pulled from. But with Linux, it still works great.
That’s been great for my family, but it’s also great for the environment. Throw out your 3 year old computer because someone needs you to buy a new one is not sustainable.
133 • @ 130 Linux (by Kazan on 2019-05-05 06:52:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Once people switch to Linux they get off the Windows upgrade cycle."
And, they get into Linux upgrade cycle.
The problem is we expect people to do something against something. You switch to Linux, because you are against Windows. Always against. "Once people switch to Linux they get off the Windows upgrade cycle."
There's no reason for us to be against something just because it is there, and that you have to pay for it. You pay for bread, and even for water. You can't be against one type of bread, can you?
There's so many brands of cars out there, but you are buying a car of one brand not because you are against all other brands. Or, you buy an Asus, not because you are against Acer. Or, you buy a Dell, not because you are against HP, do you?
No, this "against something" attitude should be stopped, for Linux to be liked by the most. If the computer manufacturers are not interested in making Linux only laptops, you can't blame them, for a business is there to make a profit. If the so-called Linux only computer makers sell them at exorbitant prices (low quality ones), and if we have to blame ourselves for buying them at those prices. Why should anyone pay extra to buy a lower quality laptop, when you can get a higher quality Windows laptop and multi boot with many Linuxes, BSD etc? Isn't it nice to have as many as you can OSs, including Windows in your laptop?
No, we shouldn't be against another OS. We should like/love Linux for what it is, not because it is a substitute for Windows. (Personally, I'd like to have MacOS too, only I can't afford at the moment. I used it once, for a whole 2 years, so I know how good it is!)
134 • Upgrade Cycle (by manHattan on 2019-05-05 07:25:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
“But with Linux, it still works great.”
My iBook with Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) still works 'great'.
The same applies to my Fujitsu with Windows 98.
One doesn't unnecessarily need Linux.
Linux is not better or worse.
Not for that matter.
I even know of worldwide renown university research department still 'being served' by Windows NT Active Directory server.
On the other side, you've got a 'junkputer' H/W, where you've no idea if it'll start tomorrow morning or if it'll still work in the evening and you've got a deprecated S/W that's not getting any updates, which is fine as long as you're not online.
Who needs a computer to get the job done, considers computer as a 'tool'. Serious professional never relies on 'garage H/W' and 'backyard O/S', even less if they are decade old (one exception: industry machinery like in my example from above -- where you've got no choice -- or where the choice is throwing away, many millions worth, perfectly well working machines, just because they rely on 20-years old S/W).
Besides reliability issues because of aging, there's also the energy efficiency question.
Compare 10-years old ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 AMP with ZOTAC GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, for example.
In case of a Laptop/Notebook, that means 4 hours of work instead of 50 minutes or whatever your specific HW offers.
Most people who throw the computer every 3 years, have a good reason. People who throw the computer every 3 years are usually not throwing it because it quit working but, either they simply enjoy having new things or they need a reliable working tool.
135 • junk (by Tim on 2019-05-05 09:35:22 GMT from United States)
My 2008 Core Duo is not a junkputer that has deprecated software. It's completely up to date with Ubuntu MATE 19.04 (one of my 3 whose upgrade went flawlessly.) It plays (and even edits) HD video. My entire family uses it daily, and it hasn't been replaced because there wouldn't be any point.
Look, you've already said that your "solution" to all computer problems is to buy a multi thousand dollar laptop every 3 years and then you don't have problems. If that works for you, great. But that's not most people. Most people I know are incredibly frustrated that their not-that-old machine that they spent a lot of money on has gotten so slow as to be unusable. If I ever convince them to put Linux on it before chucking it their minds are blown with how it seems like a brand new computer again.
Am I worried it won't turn on tomorrow? Not at all. First of all it was a pull from a corporate environment I bought from a recycler for $40. So it cost basically nothing and was built to much higher quality than any consumer grade stuff. Maybe someday it won't turn on (as will every computer) or won't be good enough any more. But it's been at least 5 years, and during that time it's saved my family thousands of dollars.
I'm not against Windows, I'm against waste. Most people aren't doing anything significantly different with their computers in 2019 then they were doing in 2008 (I recognize that their are major exceptions but that's not most people.) If people need a new computer to do a specific thing, or Windows to do a specific thing, that's fine by me. But I'm not ok with people being convinced that a 3 year old computer is now trash. It only appears to be trash when it runs one operating system whose developers have an incentive to sell more computers. Jesse put it right- when you have a Linux computer you're off the upgrade cycle. I replace tech when I need it, not when someone else needs me to.
136 • @134: (by dragonmouth on 2019-05-05 11:28:32 GMT from United States)
"On the other side, you've got a 'junkputer' H/W"
I suppose that you are under the impression that all those affordable Windows computers (desktops and laptops) you are carrying on about are built with the finest quality components avaialble? If you were building your own computer you probably wouldn't put any of those crap parts in it.
137 • @136 Affordable (by manHattan on 2019-05-05 12:18:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
“If you were building your own computer you probably wouldn't put any of those crap parts in it.”
Very probably. :)
There's H/W and there's 'affordable H/W'. ;)
The second ones, I'm trying to avoid in very large curves.
:) :) :)
138 • For/Against/Non-plussed (by Jordan on 2019-05-05 18:01:22 GMT from United States)
"There's no reason for us to be against something just because it is there, and that you have to pay for it. You pay for bread, and even for water. You can't be against one type of bread, can you?"
I wish it were just about "brands." If that were the case then the whole discussion would be about MX vs Fedora, etc.
Wrt Windows vs Linux, it's about corporate fascism vs freedom, to over simplify a bit.
139 • @138 Corporate...hmmm... (by Kazan on 2019-05-05 19:14:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Wrt Windows vs Linux, it's about corporate fascism vs freedom, to over simplify a bit."
Hmm...the corporate fascist is a Platinum member of the Linux Foundation. And, there are whole lot of corporate members in that main Linux organization than the amount of free (poor) users, who come here.
140 • Linux is made for the corporate users, who pay (by Pierre on 2019-05-05 19:34:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Looking at the corporate members, one can deduce that Linux is made for the corporate users, who pay. We, the free and poor users are there to test it, and give feedback. The corporate members make huge amount of money from "free" Linux, period!
Number of Comments: 140
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