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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Backup methods (by DaveW on 2019-04-22 01:21:09 GMT from United States)
I voted "Other" because I use a combination of Timeshift, rsync, cp, dd, and SpiderOak. Different programs at different times for different data.
2 • Backup (by Guido on 2019-04-22 01:21:12 GMT from Philippines)
I can recommend grsync (gtk) and luckybackup (qt). Both are easy to use frontends of rsync. With these programs backups are quite easy to plan and control.
3 • RE: Programs for creating backups (by Carson on 2019-04-22 01:59:25 GMT from Canada)
I chose other because I just run clonezilla to do a full disk clone every once in a while
4 • Backups (by Sam Crawford on 2019-04-22 02:24:34 GMT from United States)
I checked other as I use Insync to sync everything to my Google Drive account.
I use the directory Insync creates on my Home directory as my Document directory for what ever programs access my data and everything gets synced where I can access it on any computer or device.
5 • Debian (by Jon Wright on 2019-04-22 02:27:08 GMT from Netherlands)
"Hartman ran on a platform of trying to improve communication within the Debian project and to streamline the decision making process to avoid having contributors bogged down in debates."
Ah, a dictator!
6 • Backups (My post above) (by Sam Crawford on 2019-04-22 02:27:20 GMT from United States)
I probably should have mentioned that I found a Flatpak today called "ODrive" that does the same thing as Insync but is free.
7 • Backups (by John Weason on 2019-04-22 03:10:31 GMT from United States)
I voted other as well. I use Acronis, which has never let me down.
8 • Backups (by Bill S on 2019-04-22 03:19:55 GMT from United States)
I chose other because I've been using Terabyte for Linux since Ubuntu Hardy 8.04.
It let's me make a backup even while running the OS and I can write the backup to just about any location.
9 • Grsync backup (by albinard on 2019-04-22 03:37:37 GMT from United States)
I use Grsync for two reasons: first, because I’m pretty much a GUI-centric person, and second, because it offers multiple “Sessions” in which you can back up different files to different targets, and even use them on different schedules. You could, for example, name a session “If it’s Tuesday, it must be Security”, where Security is a file of recently reported breaches. All the Sessions can be accessed from a single window which offers the same options available on the terminal, but expressed in a more explanatory fashion (example: “--exclude=“Downloads/”). It takes a bit of practice to sort out your optimal setup, but I find it well worth the effort.
10 • Debian (by Jon Wright on 2019-04-22 03:41:16 GMT from Netherlands)
Did nobody run on a platform of fixing whatever awful mess it was that got them deciding on systemd? Debian is such a splendid project, with great infrastructure. The systemd debacle was one instance where I didn't see much _debate_, let alone getting 'bogged down'. (Yes I'm aware there was very little interest in running for DPL.)
11 • Backup (by Andy Figueroa on 2019-04-22 03:50:23 GMT from United States)
I voted other because how can you include TAR and CP under the same item. That's nuts! I currently use tar to create a collection of tarballs for each backup. The scripts run under crontab at night while I sleep.
Over time, I plan to migrate to scripts using dar. Why isn't dar an option? Don't people know about dar? http://dar.linux.free.fr/
12 • Another vote for RSync Family (by BeGo on 2019-04-22 04:07:35 GMT from Indonesia)
I use them to backup my laptop,
a combi of
- Nextcloud Server for NAS
- RSync + GRSync for local backup
- RClone + RClone Browser for net backup
- Syncthing + Syncthing-GTK for most fast updating backup, like mobile phone Tachiyomi List
13 • MX (by Argent on 2019-04-22 05:41:57 GMT from United States)
Not surprised to see MX filling the #1 spot on DW, watched it slowly creep upwards. Find it a bit odd that derivatives have now replaced the parent distribution as a go-to install. This is the case with Debian, Ubuntu, and Arch.
MX and antiX are superior distributions, they both just work and can see why they would be a much more benign option to use!
14 • Backup (by Michael on 2019-04-22 06:31:38 GMT from Switzerland)
Using borg backup.
15 • Debian DPL platforms (by Tim on 2019-04-22 06:49:30 GMT from United States)
@10 Instead of taunting with pointed questions, go read and educate yourself, eh
https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/platforms/
16 • Backup (by A van der Tweel on 2019-04-22 06:55:00 GMT from Netherlands)
I'm quite happy with the incremental backup program ukopp.
17 • Rsnapshot (by Microlinux on 2019-04-22 07:00:38 GMT from France)
Rsnapshot is a nice backup solution that I use for myself and all my clients, on LAN and public servers.
https://www.microlinux.fr/rsnapshot-centos-7/
18 • @ 13: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 07:04:53 GMT from Switzerland)
"... MX ... are superior distributions, they both just work ..."
MX is probalbly one of the worst preconfigured Linux distributions ever and it looks awfull.
For those who can fix it, it'll work though.
19 • I use restic for backups... (by Nico on 2019-04-22 07:36:30 GMT from Germany)
...because it's really fast, stable and secure. Check it out: https://restic.net . CERN is currently testing it for backing up a gazillion gazillobytes. Per second. So I'm guessing it's a good choice for my 1.4 megs. Just kidding. It's really awesome!
20 • I use (by Sam on 2019-04-22 07:46:02 GMT from Switzerland)
Borgbackup bc it's great!
21 • @18: MX (by Joost on 2019-04-22 08:09:24 GMT from Netherlands)
"MX...one of the worst preconfigured LD ever.."
I'm curious: based on what?
22 • @18: MX (by Jules on 2019-04-22 08:43:21 GMT from Netherlands)
MX is my first Linux distro after I left Windows. So I cannot say much about others. It worked for me out of the box. Never had any issues so far. It just works. As I said, I'm a first time linux user, and I thought it would be very hard for me to use. But it is easy to install, and has everything I need. Maybe there are other distros that are better. I don't know. But MX is for me the best thing that happened to me. I should have done this years ago. MX really rocks....
23 • Backups (by Romane on 2019-04-22 08:50:12 GMT from Australia)
Been using rsync for a dogs age now. Once I sorted out the options I wanted, it was easy to write bash script which did all the grunt work.
Have tried some other backup solutions, but keep returning to rsync as it does exactly what I want, and no more.
24 • Backups (by Saladin on 2019-04-22 09:02:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Clonezilla. Usually disc-disc as I rarely delete anything; it's a true record of everything that happened, good, bad and stupid.
25 • Debian DPL (by James on 2019-04-22 09:25:44 GMT from Switzerland)
@5 What?? No idea what are you writing about!
@15 Well said. Thank you.
@13 MX Linux and Antix are good distros, but certainly not superior to Debian, in fact they are Debian whit some extra packages, and Debian?, yea it just works.
26 • Backup tools ( others ) (by Saleem Khan on 2019-04-22 09:39:25 GMT from Pakistan)
Systemback for Debian ( and Debian based distros)
Norton Ghost for others ( arch Linux ) using it for ages now , never failed for me.
27 • @21: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 09:41:30 GMT from Switzerland)
"I'm curious: based on what?"
Based on basic design/ergonomics/usability principals.
The fact that you ask that question at all is a bad sign. Did you try to use MX?
28 • @27, MX (by Pepe Le Peu on 2019-04-22 10:29:26 GMT from France)
"Based on basic design/ergonomics/usability principals." In other words, because you don't like it. (Schools and loans have principals, by the way. Distros have, or lack principles.) Only thing I dislike is the panel on the left, but others may consider it ergonomically correct. In any case, that that can be fixed with a couple of clicks, and then you have a GUI that works pretty much like most XFCE distros out there, only with more tools at your disposal. I prefer KDE, neon or Kubuntu, but I keep MX on a flash drive. Useful and handy.
29 • @ 28: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 10:55:02 GMT from Switzerland)
"In other words, because you don't like it."
Nope. Basic design/ergonomics/usability principals are not the matter of personal taste but, of many studies and the definitions, rules and standards (DIN, ISO ...).
The positioning of the panel for example, is a matter of personal preference but, its basic (pre~) configuration (ergonomics/usability) is not a matter of taste.
Adding something like a clock or weather would be personal preference -- legibility of that added clock is not a matter of taste but, a matter of usability.
MX is a perfect example of a completely misconfigured OS.
30 • Backup (by PJ on 2019-04-22 11:01:16 GMT from Ireland)
You're not backed up unless your backups are automatic, redundant, and offsite. Which is the best software is the wrong question. Can you, or indeed someone else, do a restore easily and quickly with minimal or no data loss? is the right one.
At a former employer I kept a backup disaster memento on my desk: a QIC cartridge (DC6150 from memory) with tens of thousands records of bibliographic data from the library, laboriously and lovingly entered by library staff. The database had an accident one day (before my time) and the records were lost. The tape was brought to me one day to see if I could do anything. The hardware was long gone and so was the software, a unique custom developed solution. So, it turned out, was the company.
At that same employer I found out once that the server backups weren't running -- the overnight backup was failing and it wasn't being reported to me by a staff member who thought, repeatedly, he could fix it the next night. Luckily I found out before we needed to do a restore. Had we needed to and not been able to my job and a lot else would have been toast. (We were not doing regular test restores).
I could go on. Every IT pro has backup and data recovery disaster stories.
At home my backup regime for Linux includes (but isn't limited to)
Timeshift
BackInTime to a NAS, which is rsynced to a 2nd (remote) FreeNAS box running ZFS
BorgBackup to a docking station connected USB drive
I also use Dropbox and Nextcloud but my Internet connectivity is very limited so can't make extensive use of cloud backup.
And I'm still paranoid. And yes, I have unreadable old media but mostly as souvenirs :-)
31 • @29, MX (by Pepe Le Peu on 2019-04-22 11:18:44 GMT from France)
"Ergonomics is a science-based discipline that brings together knowledge from other subjects such as anatomy and physiology, psychology, engineering and statistics to ensure that designs complement the strengths and abilities of people and minimise the effects of their limitations. Rather than expecting people to adapt to a design that forces them to work in an uncomfortable, stressful or dangerous way, ergonomists and human factors specialists seek to understand how a product, workplace or system can be designed to suit the people who need to use it.
In achieving this aim, we need to understand and design for the variability represented in the population, spanning such attributes as age, size, strength, cognitive ability, prior experience, cultural expectations and goals. Qualified ergonomists are the only recognised professionals to have competency in optimising performance, safety and comfort."
So you are either a qualified ergonomist who has studied the use of MX across a varied population, or you just don't like it.
32 • backups (by Scott on 2019-04-22 11:23:19 GMT from United States)
I remove them if included with distro. The only reason i stopped using mint.
33 • Backups with FreeFileSync (by Dxvid on 2019-04-22 11:26:14 GMT from Sweden)
I use FreeFileSync for backups if I'm using a desktop or laptop machine, it's cross platform and works with many file systems.
I previously used to make huge archive files or collections of smaller archive files, but after running into problems with corruption and also old proprietary compression algorithms becoming unusable I don't trust archives for backup anymore. Archives with encrypted or compressed data makes backups more vulnerable to file corruption or hard drive sector corruption. So nowadays I just copy files as they are to lower the risk of losing more data than just one file. The most important data I copy to several places. If it's really important I also copy it offsite, in case of fire.
34 • Backup (by Jim on 2019-04-22 11:32:17 GMT from United States)
I didn't vote as I really never back up. Like Scott I remove backup software. I just save important stuff to an external hard drive or USB key. So far that has worked for me,
35 • MX (by Argent on 2019-04-22 12:12:05 GMT from United States)
@18
"MX is probalbly one of the worst preconfigured Linux distributions ever and it looks awfull.
Quite MX is light years ahead of your spelling, ie "probalbly" "awfull".
Have to agree a user must know a little of something. Stay with your Ubuntu, safer that way!
36 • @31: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 12:14:03 GMT from Switzerland)
I am "a qualified ergonomist".
Are you one of: https://ibb.co/vPKMQxV ?
Would you build a website with some 8 px font or 16?
Have a look at MX clock.
Would you cross the street on red or green?
Have a look at MX updater.
Would you ...
Have a look at MX.
37 • Not doing backups? (by DaveW on 2019-04-22 12:19:33 GMT from United States)
@34 Actually, when you save the "important stuff" to an external drive, you are doing a backup. You could be using the cp command, or you could just be doing a File... Save As... whenever you feel like it. But it's still a backup.
38 • MXLinux (by Jordan on 2019-04-22 12:22:42 GMT from United States)
Somebody posted that MX is at the top "only at distrowatch." That's interesting to think about, because we can go up and down the PHR list and declare any listed distro as being say.. number 99 "only at distrowatch," ad infinitum.
Yes, we're discussing things at distrowatch and one of those things is MXLinux taking over Manjaro's #1 spot after a gradual rise.
Somebody also posted that it was due to "MX forum users (likely) coming here and clicking the MX link ever day... etc." That's interesting, too.. as if those forum users can skew the PHR results in a significant way over time if there were very few of them to do that.
We don't know.. I suppose a study of DW's logs would show the IP addresses of each click that "votes" for a distro on the list. I don't recall ever seeing a report here by the sight operators proving or disproving such things. It seems more that some users here just need to degrade distros they don't like. Either way.. your distro didn't make it this time. Maybe next time. Rally your forum users. ;o) In the mean time, perhaps you can go to the MX forums and find and post here the rallying cries to rush the place and click the MX link on the list every day.
39 • Gaming on Alpine (by a on 2019-04-22 12:28:49 GMT from France)
I’m curious to know if it’s possible to play games compiled for glibc on Alpine. They have a wiki page about it but obsolete.
40 • Backup (by NoSe on 2019-04-22 12:33:55 GMT from United States)
My backup choices:
For documents: LuckyBackup
For my MX system: Snapshot
For other systems: Clonezilla
41 • @35 & 38: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 12:37:27 GMT from Switzerland)
" It seems more that some users here just need to degrade distros they don't like."
"Quite MX is light years ahead of your spelling, ie "probalbly" "awfull"."
Nope. Just the facts.
And ...
Does good or bad spelling makes this look any better?
https://mxlinux.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/OfficialIconsScreenshot.png
https://ibb.co/12RZWdg
What 'visual style' this is supposed to be?
Have you ever had a look at settings panel in MX?
How can you combine such 'art accident' together with Papirus icon set and still keep 'visual consistency' (== style)?
42 • @ 35 Argent (by Boo on 2019-04-22 12:38:31 GMT from Portugal)
Mx is based from Mepis and antix, I find your idea this makes it more intelligent than Ubuntu is laughable. All these distro require little to no Linux knowledge whatsoever.
43 • Backups (by Victor on 2019-04-22 12:51:51 GMT from Canada)
I voted timeshift. In reality I let timeshift handle / on auto settings, and I manually back up /home with grsync, rsync GUI cousin manually about once a month...
44 • @34 @37 (by Lee on 2019-04-22 13:00:38 GMT from United States)
Drag & drop to a USB flash drive
45 • @41 whoever (by Artemis3 on 2019-04-22 13:22:26 GMT from Venezuela)
I don't particularly care much about how a desktop looks by default, here we want is a distro that does its job and stays out of the way. I'm installing MX Linux to others, because its good enough by default, the only thing i change with a single click from their welcome menu, is the panel from vertical to horizontal orientation, so that former windows users don't feel too alienated.
But yeah, its just XFCE, you can do with it anything you like. I particularly like that its just xfce and not some over bloated desktop environment.
So its just Debian, but guess what, its pre-configured with the basic boring stuff already, you could install and move on quickly. Its graphic installer is great, and a quick installer of "common apps" is very useful (ie. proprietary garbage like teamviewer some people want).
If all your issue is the visual aspect, why don't you just publish an XFCE theme that also includes gtk2/3 qt4/5 and xfwm along with icons and cursor, the way you like it for others to use?
At least they got the important stuff done. To me functionality goes first, beautification second, not the other way around... At most I'd just swap the icon theme with adwaita or whatever you like if only for the accessibility.
46 • backup (by dogma on 2019-04-22 13:41:44 GMT from United States)
I’ve been using cpdup. I’ve looked at the man page for rsync on occasion, and it’s intimidating, as there are a million options, and finding the right set without overlooking something vital that comes back to bite you later would be rather a trick. Maybe people start with whatever options someone else tells them to use.
47 • @45: (by whoever on 2019-04-22 13:55:00 GMT from Switzerland)
"But yeah, its just XFCE, you can do with it anything you like."
I agree. That's why I've said: "For those who can fix it, it'll work ..."
"... its good enough by default ... If all your issue is the visual aspect ..."
It's not and it's not but, the usability issues one can hardly show in images.
Try to imagine you've got a folder with 6'000 images. You need to mark & copy 1'000, klick by klick.
Default setting in MX is: if you stay with a mouse over some file, it'll mark it.
Now, you press 'ctrl' button, go from one file to another, carefully watching not to pass over some file that you don't want to mark. At file 999, the telephone rings, your concentration drops, your finger left 'ctrl' and your mouse shifted a fractal of a millimeter and came to close to some image file ... the file got automatically checked and all the other 998 unchecked -- that's just one small example of bad usability (pre~) configurations.
Or, try to repeat that same action by using only the (multi~) touchpad. Wish you luck ...
You see, just as Pepe Le Peu wrote: "Ergonomics is a science-based discipline ... to ensure that designs complement ... abilities of people and minimise the effects of their limitations." -- and the avarage population is ageing. With age, the eyesight is getting worse, movement control is getting worse, concentration is getting worse ...
It's the job of the developers to ship their products with a decent defaults and not the other way round!
48 • backups (by wally on 2019-04-22 13:57:00 GMT from United States)
Combination of Clonezilla, tar, rsync per destination and purpose.
offsite DVD
offsite USB
detached HD
cloning of major data to multiple systems
49 • Backups (by Friar Tux on 2019-04-22 14:34:46 GMT from Canada)
Like @32 and @34, I do not use backup software. I have tried just about all of the utilities/apps for backing up your stuff, and simply coping the Home/User folder seems to work the best. It even requires less time than a backup utility/app (on my machine). While I disagree with @30 about backups having to be automatic**, I do agree that one should have more than one backup - just in case. As for using the cloud to back up my stuff - NEVER. I use that only for the one file I deem important enough to keep synced across various machines and OS's. I find the 'cloud' still way too changeable and unpredictable to trust them with ALL my stuff. And yes that one file I also keep backed up elsewhere.
**Things do tend to screw up occasionally as @30 so eloquently described in the third paragraph. I sit through a 20 minute (scheduled) back up every Friday. (I do two machines at the same time which takes about half an hour, on average.)
50 • Backups (by Sitwon on 2019-04-22 15:19:50 GMT from United States)
I'm primarily using a combination of:
Restic + local/network storage
Restic + B2 cloud storage
CrashPlanPro small business plan
I tend to use rsync quite a bit for syncing specific directories or shipping data between systems, but rely mostly on Restic/CrashPlan for the true versioned backups.
51 • MX Linux (by void on 2019-04-22 15:52:47 GMT from Brazil)
I agree with 'whoever' - "MX is a perfect example of a completely misconfigured OS."
They really ruined their Xfce desktop. If they made such a mess with the distro´s aesthetic, imagine what could have been made with other configuration options "under the hood".
52 • CLONES BACKUPS (by vmclark on 2019-04-22 16:16:32 GMT from United States)
I use 'fsarchiver' for all my ext4 installs, and use Clonezilla or Acronis True Image for NTFS Clones
http://www.fsarchiver.org/
cloning ntfs using fsarchiver is experimental at best.
I don't consider clones and backups the same. If I clone my ext4 I can restore that file to another hard drive and just add the UUID to grub or use grub's configfile to named ext4 partition. Also perhaps change fstab if different swap.
And by the way, CZ user Partclone to clone partitions. You can clone it yourself using this command:
Clone:
sudo ./partclone.ext4 -z 10485760 -N -c -s /dev/sda? -o - |pigz -c --fast -b 1024 -p 16 > /FILELOCATION/ubuntu.gz;cat /FILELOCATION/ubuntu.gz|pigz -d -c|sudo ./partclone.chkimg -N -s -
Restore:
zcat /FILELOCATION/ubuntu.gz|sudo ./partclone.ext4 -N -r -o /dev/sda?
https://partclone.org/features/
53 • MX Linux (by Jules on 2019-04-22 16:38:16 GMT from Netherlands)
@51: Can you explain what is wrong with Xfce? What problems are there under the "hood"?
If MX was that bad, then why on earth are they the number one distro? If MX is that bad, then all the reviews are fake? Or wrong? Before installing MX on my Dell laptop I read many reviews. All of them were positive. So, can you explain to me what you are talking about?
MX runs fine here. Never had any issue, and if I want to change the looks or something else, I can do that with a few clicks.
So please, explain, if you can...
54 • backups (by Tim on 2019-04-22 17:05:46 GMT from United States)
I think the key thing for backups is non-technical: they need to be offsite. Regardless of how you're doing it, you need to have your files not in the same building as your main computer, and it would be even nicer if they're not in the same city. I work about 55 miles from my house, and my backups live at my job. I've seen the destruction that an EF5 tornado can do and I've known folks who lost everything. Having all your family photos, copies of documents, photos of what you once owned for the insurance company ready to go can lighten that blow a lot.
55 • MX Linux (by X-Hacker on 2019-04-22 17:08:40 GMT from Greece)
Congratulations to the MX Linux team! Reaching the 1st rank at DW is a clear indication of their hard work. One of the best & most stable distros that I used during the past year. Ofc it's time for the anti-MX trolls to come out of the woodwork ;)
56 • @53 MX Linux (by void on 2019-04-22 17:17:57 GMT from Brazil)
It´s just my opinion. Mr. "whoever" already gave us a some nice examples.
I believe Linux Mint aproach is better (following the industry standard - aka "Windows 95 interface").
57 • Backup (by Tim on 2019-04-22 17:48:03 GMT from United States)
I use btrfs read-only snapshots combined with send/receive to move them to external storage, off of my local drives,
58 • Rsync (by Will Senn on 2019-04-22 17:49:57 GMT from United States)
Great simplified coverage of rsync, Jessie. Thanks! I like timeshift on mint, but on my mac and freebsd boxes, rsync is my goto. Of course w/ZFS it’s not as slick for filesystem backups, but for syncing directories, can’t be beat.
59 • Back-up (by cholo on 2019-04-22 17:51:25 GMT from Canada)
I'm with #3, I use Clonzilla a couple times a year.
60 • Backup - rsync (by Phil on 2019-04-22 18:11:44 GMT from United States)
I use rsync to backup one server's ZFS storage to another across a local network, between two buildings, and it works flawlessly. Not to mention how fast it is. I currently have 10TB of data that rsync plows through without any problems, whatsoever.
61 • Backup - Borg backup (by Jose on 2019-04-22 18:33:24 GMT from United States)
Just recently switched from dejadup to borg. it keeps versioned backups, which are encrypted and compressed. The ability to easily mount the backup folder makes restoring an individual file very simple
62 • @53: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-22 18:56:25 GMT from Switzerland)
Nothing is wrong with XFCE but, something is wrong with MX implementation of it.
Nr. 1 Distro is still Windows 10, used by more than a 700 Mil. people, opposed to that couple of thousands of MX users. Also, being "Nr. 1" tells us more about the users then about a Distro itself. (No need to say how YOU could easily do it; you shouldn't need to do do that, on the first place!)
"I can do ... I can change ... I never had ..." has nothing to do with proper default settings; it only says that you are experienced user, that you can do, what others maybe can't and that you get yourself satisfied with low quality products because you can't see the difference. I'm happy for you. It tells us more about you then about the Distro.
If you've read and properly understood what was written until now, then I have one question for you.
Can you see at least one issue here?
https://ibb.co/zZj5GKT
https://ibb.co/hVkf74t
If yes, I'll show you the others too; if not, I'll not bother with something that's not worth it.
And reviewers ... reviewers review whatever they review ... or not. And they conclude something or not. By the way, that's how "Reviewers" desktop looks like:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/images/computers-years/2019-1/lg-mx-teaser.jpg
Not much in common with default MX configuration.
63 • MXLinux (by Friar Tux on 2019-04-22 19:10:25 GMT from Canada)
@56 (void) I agree that Mint is better, out-of-box. I tried MXLinux. It loaded and rebooted nicely, and was easy to manoeuvre around in and worked like a charm. The system settings were a bit confusing but nothing that a bit of learning couldn't cure. All in all quite well done. However, when I tried to load on my favourite, all purpose program (Cherrytree), it wouldn't install it. It wasn't listed in the Synaptic Package Manager, and GDeb claimed there were faulty files. So... it's a no-go for me. Still, it was nice to play with.
64 • impossible (by Tim on 2019-04-22 19:59:30 GMT from United States)
@63 what you have described seems impossible to me. All else aside, an older version of cherrytree would have been available from debian repository. Can only guess that you neglected to perform apt-update, then "blamed" (debian and) MX when cherrytree was unavailable within synaptic.
MX repo currently provides cherrytree v. 0.38.5-0.1~mx17+1 (newer than the version available from debian sid) and I've been using their package, glitch-free, for several months. Not on MX, but on antiX17 + debian9 Stretch repositories.
65 • Standard (by void on 2019-04-22 20:47:23 GMT from Brazil)
Not having a standard Linux desktop might have been fun for a while, but I think it´s time for a single default desktop environment.
My preferred DE is Xfce but it does not play nice anymore with GTK3 toolkit and it´s window manager is broken/buggy.
Lxde and Lubuntu are dead.
Gnome 3 is acceptable with plugins, but is way TOO slow on most machines, even modern ones.
I think I´ll be following the KDE path.
66 • typo (by void on 2019-04-22 20:49:18 GMT from Brazil)
"its"
67 • Data Backups (by Simon Wainscott-Plaistowe on 2019-04-22 21:01:02 GMT from New Zealand)
I voted "Back In Time" for the survey because it's my most regularly used backup solution, but actually I use several. For my home folders on my main laptop I use Back In Time to a USB HDD and to an offsite server, also some of that data is synced to another workstation with MegaSync. Periodically I use TimeShift to backup my system partition. Everything is a plain copy, not compressed archives because I've found they can complicate the restoration process. I particularly like Back In Time because it uses deltas like rsync does and it makes it very simple to keep generational backups as, eg: one per day for the previous week, one per week for prev month, one per month for prev year, etc. Each backup set is presented as a full backup by way of using hard-links on the backup medium. yet only incremental data changes are transmitted via deltas.
68 • Alpine Linux review, jesse (by deNiros on 2019-04-22 21:16:09 GMT from Belgium)
Thanks for the review, Jesse. Found some nice directions in it, together with your experience. I looked at Alpine some years ago. I could not create the installation media back then. Will give it another go. It seems like a nice distro for the minimalist. It would be interesting to see if you would have tried to create workable desktop-laptop config, and see how that runs. But I guess your angle was the more reasonable one.
I will try to give Alpine a go on my laptop, and see if it is a workable desktop solution for a minimalist like myself.
69 • MX Linux (by Ghost 67 on 2019-04-22 21:45:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
While Distrowatch page hit ranking is by no means any sort of a metric on the success in the big wide world of any given Linux distribution or respin it does show an increase of interest among those who frequent this site. In that regard congratulations are in order to the MX/Antix/MEPIS dev team for their work - past and present - on this wonderful distribution.
I have used MX since its inception - rising phoenix-like from the ashes of Simply MEPIS - and it has never, ever given me any problems of any sort. I've tried and tested a multitude of other distributions since 2008 and not one of them has been as feature-rich and stable as MX.
Just my 2p ...but you can take that to the bank!
70 • Backups (by Roger on 2019-04-22 22:53:57 GMT from Belgium)
Backups, don't use a program, I even delete Timeshift from Linux Mint.
Data is stored in the cloud and on two SSD.
I have no need to backup the OS, I have always spare SSD and HD ready to switch when an OS fails.
Just shut down, take the disk out and put the spare in, one minute and running again.
In every PC is a dock, inexpensive and so easy.
Laptops getting the same treatment, takes a bit longer but no real problem.
71 • Need For More Accurate Info (by M.Z. on 2019-04-22 23:12:22 GMT from United States)
@62
"Nr. 1 Distro is still Windows 10..."
That's completely false, unless you redefine 'Distro" as 'Any Desktop OS', which is clearly not what the term means for Open Source OS users. It's really only Linux & BSD that count for much of anything in terms of OSs that are 'Distros'. Of course if you want to widen the definition to any Unix like OS, then Android is probably the #1 OS in the world in terms of total device installs & is actually Linux based.
All that being said, Ubuntu is likely the #1 desktop Distro in terms of installs & it is a lot more clear if you dig into Google Trends rather than Distrowatch Page Hit Rankings, because of course DW tells you clearly on the 'Page Hit Ranking' link that PHR position on DW is not an accurate real world counter. The best estimates would likely come from Google search data available on their trends site, but there really isn't an accurate way to count Distro popularity or installs in the real world. I'm no fan of Ubuntu, especially after some of the stuff that went into the Unity DE; however, they are clearly more searched for and widely known on the biggest search engine than any other top 10 PHR Distro.
I can't say much about using MX, but both Linux Mint and Debian are an order of magnitude more searched for on Google & Ubuntu was even more searched for than those when I checked awhile back.
72 • Backup (by KG on 2019-04-22 23:47:11 GMT from Australia)
I was surprised you didn't include Rsnapshot (based on rsync) in your list. I used Rsnapshot to do remote automatic backup for a small business which worked well.
73 • Backups (by Graham on 2019-04-23 00:14:53 GMT from Australia)
Does anybody else use 'cpio' ?
74 • @71 Popularity (by Gustavo on 2019-04-23 00:59:18 GMT from Brazil)
Google Trends shows a much more accurate result with the term "download" appended i.e.: Ubuntu download vs MX Linux download.
Please take a look at these graphs:
http://i.imgur.com/Zl0zBSl.png
MX linux is traced in yelllow, Ubuntu in blue.
I think that MX Linux is only popular over here.
75 • @71 Popularity (by Gustavo on 2019-04-23 01:02:28 GMT from Brazil)
Worldwide graphic:
http://i.imgur.com/5ynn3uF.png
76 • Pop Trends, Backups (by duane on 2019-04-23 02:07:57 GMT from United States)
@71. True statement regarding Windows and open source.
It would be interesting to find out IP's on Distrowatch page hits. Not the addresses, that's probably illegal , but maybe regions. Then again maybe not. Some take the rankings here way to serious.
I enjoyed reading some interesting info on the Backups for this weeks topic. I hope to see more comments.
77 • Backup in Linux (by Greg on 2019-04-23 02:15:24 GMT from Australia)
So many ways to backup in Linux, from total-CLI, to full GUI, and many in-between these two extremes. We need a comparison of the different methods. This week the Ubuntu newsletter pointed to another long discussion on backups as well. https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2416849
Seems no authority has yet described which method, of many available is best for the many situations. It should be remembered that GUI backups are needed for the majority of desktop & mobile users. Server & IoT users might prefer CLI.
What surprised me was the different speeds of the backup process, so benchmark tests are needed as well.
78 • MX and the MS super distro (by Pepe Le Peu on 2019-04-23 03:10:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Nr. 1 Distro is still Windows 10."
Now I get it. Like comparing a car built by Toyota to a custom built in someone's backyard. Still, it takes me quite a bit more time to get rid of Windows' myriad default annoyances than with just about any Linux distro, including MX. Yes, the panel is on the side, the fonts on the clock are small, and the mouse is set on hover. The first two I change on first use. Didn't notice that last one maybe because don't usually go around transferring 999 files by mouse clicking, but there is is. All fixed with a few clicks.
Yes, I do the same as dedoimedo, setting up the desktop to my liking, with MX or any other distro. Wish I could set up the MS super distro as well, without downloading third-party apps, some requiring payment or offering "free" ads. I test and run a few distros (including the unnameable one) on a regular basis. All get adjustments prior to regular use. I don't find MX to be any more difficult than others. XFCE distros look and work pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned, and are very adaptable.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/164785504@N08/
79 • MX Linux (by Andy Figueroa on 2019-04-23 03:24:10 GMT from United States)
I see the MX Linux trolls are out in force now. Let's get some facts straight. MX is not based on Mepis and antiX. MX is a joing effort of the former Mepis team and the antiX team. MX is based on Debian stable and enhanced with tools developed for antiX. MX is thoughtfully and skillfully crafted.
The styles, themes, icon set chosen, and panel location by default are a mater of taste, and easily changed by a novice with a click of the mouse.
The MX development team (all volunteers) are extraordinarily responsive to the needs of its users. I am a happy user.
80 • Manjaro (by Alan Davis on 2019-04-23 07:36:26 GMT from United States)
Manjaro gets the cold shoulder. It's been on the top of the hitlist for over a year, but gets no love.
??????
I find it is superior in a number of ways. Arch is better. The problem with Arch's philosophy (that one needs to jump through a bunch of hoops to learn the system): it fails to be humorous after several installs---that is, several learning experiences.
81 • @78 & 79: MX (by whatever on 2019-04-23 08:31:51 GMT from Switzerland)
@78: "All fixed with a few clicks."
That's exactly the point. Everything is fixable with a few clicks BUT, setting the proper defaults is not something that users should ever need to deal with.
One always tries to deliver a 'finished product', which means, functionality, usability and design combined, in the best possible manner.
Also, 'easy with a couple of clicks' implies that one already knows exactly where to look and which 'easy clicks' have to be done.
Take a look at Whisker Menu, under Multimedia, as example. What do you see? Alsa, Pulse Audio and Xfburn icons are showing up as a 'dirt on the screen', small, dark gray icons, completely different from the rest. Setting up a proper size (small/smaller) in Whisker settings would make them appear with their proper icons in the menu and the general appearance would have a more professional look. One doesn't have to show that it's just a 'backyard project' even if it was done in the backyard.
@79: "The styles, themes, icon set chosen, and panel location by default are a mater of taste, and easily changed by a novice with a click of the mouse."
That's only partially truth, namely, the 'distribution defaults' serve the whole another purpose and have another rules than somebodies 'personal defaults'.
Personal defaults are the category 'customizing', 'pimping', 'adapting according to ones personal needs or taste'. Distribution defaults have to insure the optimum usability for everybody. It means: light background, dark text, proper font contrast, legible font size, proper signal colors and so on.
Also, what you see here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/164785504@N08/46944091834/
... is not all fixable/changeable by a novice, and not even for some 'experts'. What you can see here is an example of basic conceptual mistake caused by the negligence/ignorance of developers, not following the basic rules and guidelines.
Let's have a look at only one single icon (Menu Editor) as an example.
First some facts:
1. MX team decided on using Papirus icon theme as a default.
2. Most icon sets have 'menueditor' and/or 'menu-editor' included by default.
3. All XFCE distributions (or at least all that I ever tried) bring a menu editor already.
Now tell me what you see ... You'll see a Faenza monochrome style Menu Editor icon. Where's the problem? Easily replaceable by novice? Well, try changing the icon set from default Papirus to anything else except of Faenza and see yourself.
MX team found it necessary to call the Menu Editor 'mx-menu-editor' (instead of 'menueditor' and/or 'menu-editor'). Why not follow the convention and name it properly so that every good (== complete) icon set has an icon for it by default?
Why not make a sym-links to existing Papirus icons so that at least that one, chosen default icon set, has a proper icon, instead of placing their 'own art' inside 'hicolor' and 'pixmaps'?
Or -- if one want's its 'own art', why not producing truly own icon set or at least, a couple of own icons?
What we get presented is not the art by any means, it's more a sort of 'mixed salad', where different styles, shapes and sizes are wildly mixed together ... (Please have a look in @41 & @62.) Adwaita/Gnome, Hicolor, Faenza, Papirus and a few own ones, plus some OEM default icons. That's not 'art' and that's not 'style' -- that's an insult to the art and a good taste and highly amateurish.
* Don't get it wrong now and mix up the 'good' and good -- 'good look' is NOT a matter of personal taste; it's a matter of style, patterns and consistency -- it's recognizable. It doesn't matter if you are using Gnome, Faenza, Numix or Papirus but, it matters that you are using it consequently all over the system and insure the consistency. With other words, even if I personally wouldn't like to see the Gnome icon set being used and even if the Gnome icon set is pretty old-fashioned, the distribution using the Gnome icon set only (but consitently!), would still look good -- because of it's consistent.
82 • Manjaro and MX (by Hoos on 2019-04-23 08:51:03 GMT from Singapore)
Both distros are fine.
It's just a balance between how leading-edge you want your software and how much time you are willing to spend checking up on update warnings in the (manjaro) forum. Problems don't always crop up but one has to accept some time investment when using a rolling distro.
MX although based on Debian Stable and thus less hands-off when it comes to updating, does provide newer versions of some software if it's able to be backported, but there's always a limit to backporting somewhere down the line. Having the latest version of everything may not be that important to some people but if it is important, normal packages can be supplemented by flatpaks if available, though that comes with the consequence of having to use up large amounts of disk storage space.
User needs to decide which is better for him/her.
83 • Trolls (by Wee on 2019-04-23 09:10:04 GMT from Portugal)
As needs to be pointed out a million times in this comment section:
A difference of opinion to the current groupthink does not constitute a troll.
84 • @81, MX, the antithesis of good taste (by Pepe Le Peu on 2019-04-23 09:21:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
I must bow to your sensibilities as arbiter of good taste. Now since building takes effort and criticizing not so much, perhaps with your spare time you will gift us one of these days with your own distro "based on basic design/ergonomics/usability principals [sic]." Or maybe you may want to offer your services to the MX team. I'm sure they'd jump at the chance to have an aesthete such as yourself to help show them how to create. And then we hoi polloi would be saved from the horrors of ugly and inconsistent icons and sundry indignities.
85 • MX (by Xinix on 2019-04-23 09:46:05 GMT from Germany)
MX and XFCE have some issues with UI/UX. That much really should be obvious. Be honest to yourself, there. Whatever makes a lot of valid points.
On the other hand MX Linux puts a lot of effort in MX-Tools and they are very useful. Based on those tools alone, MX deserves a lot of credit.
It does not really matter if it hits #1 on DW though. I find it nice, that it got there, but statistics are flawed. DW ones and google statistics as well.
And there is more to MX Linux under the hood (Debian w/o SystemD for example.)
86 • Other (by Risk Management on 2019-04-23 09:52:21 GMT from Australia)
I chose other. I have all my critical data on 12 year old server in raid-0
The beauty of raid 0 is not just the speed increase but the data is nicely spread over multiple drives, so *if* I get a failure (unlikely honestly), the other drives will have part of the data remaining. no need for rsync or any other apps either
87 • @39: Gaming on Alpine (by Luca on 2019-04-23 10:51:41 GMT from Switzerland)
> I’m curious to know if it’s possible to play games compiled for glibc on Alpine.
Alpine Linux uses Musl C.
Binaries compiled with glibc just don't run.
You might try to rebuild them from source into the Alpine build environment.
88 • @ whoever & MX (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-23 11:47:25 GMT from United States)
In all your anti-MX blather, you have not once mentioned any "aesthetically pleasing and ergonomically correct" distro. All you have done is rag on MX. Fine. We get it. In your opinion, it SUCKS. However, you are not the final arbiter of good taste or what makes a "good" distro. Each and every Linux user determines that for themselves.
Every Linux distro, other than the build-it-yourself ones, is some developers idea of what a distro should look like and work like, what the default setup should be. It is only his/her opinion. It is NOT an immutable, universal truth. Every user has their own idea what they want out of a distro. I doubt if there exists one Linux install that is being used in its default form. Everybody tweaks their installs; some do it less, some tweak them almost beyond recognition. That is the beauty of Linux, its tweakability, which is something that Windows does not and WILL NOT ever have.
As Pepe Le Peu said, if you are such an accomplished and renowned ergonomist and such a good taste maven, why don't YOU create the perfect distro and teach these bumbling fool developers how it should be done. Until then, your opinion carries no more weight than anybody else's.
89 • @88 (by whoever on 2019-04-23 12:46:41 GMT from Switzerland)
You're right dragonmoth. My opinion is not worth much but, your opinion or opinion of some Pepe VPN Le Peu's are worth absolutely nothing.
What did I say at the very beginning? "MX is probalbly one of the worst preconfigured Linux distributions ever and it looks awfull. For those who can fix it, it'll work though."
Not more, not less. And -- I brought a very clear arguments.
What's the point of shifting the discussion towards a personal level or to some generalizations like: "Every user has their own idea ... Everybody tweaks their installs ... " That has nothing to do with bad preconfiguration and it has nothing to do with with personal tastes.
I also never said who should use what or why, or what or why not -- I wrote the simple FACT.
If you want to discuss further, prove me that I'm wrong or just stop writing because, without a proof that I'm wrong, your opinion matters even less than absolutely nothing.
I'm not stopping you of being MX fan, it's your good right but, don't be blind and please stop using that double standards that you're currently using.
Imagine MX being a car ... You go out and get yourself a brand new car. Beautiful, shiny, red car, with left door green, missing one of four seats ... Would you still accept it by saying: "Everybody pimps it's car?" Or maybe you'd just say: "It is NOT an immutable, universal truth" that all doors should have the same color and all seats should be there, if sould as a 4-seater. Yes, everybody is pimping their OS, just like a car too but, the basics (== defaults) must be proper and that stands out of discussion.
90 • MX (by Flamewar on 2019-04-23 12:55:50 GMT from United States)
"whatever" you sound like someone who offered your expertise, was not listened to and now you are offended. I don't agree with your way you set up clock. I prefer my way.
Anyway, MX-Snapshot makes easiest way possible to create your own flavor, your own design. Show it, post it somewhere and let's users decide. If it will be much better, I'm sure some stuff from your design will be implemented. Put up or shut up. Manjaro and MX user here. Like them both. Over time I started to like left side panel from MX so much, I set it up in my Manjaro as well. It makes sense, there IS more available space horizontally than vertically. As former long time windows user I disliked it at first, but now I'm loving it. I guess, I'm just ergonomically/aesthetically dumb. But I don't care ;-)
91 • @90 (by whoever on 2019-04-23 13:04:29 GMT from Switzerland)
"Over time I started to like left side panel from MX so much, I set it up in my Manjaro as well. It makes sense, there IS more available space horizontally than vertically."
Could you please show me where did I say that the side panel has to be right/top/bottom?
Are you absolutely sure that you understood anything of what are you trying to discuss?
Maybe better if you just leave it at: "I don't care." ;)
92 • MX (by Flamewar on 2019-04-23 13:18:50 GMT from Romania)
@93 You are correct, some other did, not you, my bad. You did indicate how windows may be doing it right, though. Hard to remember who said what...
Bottom line, I haven't find ONE distro I would left it the way it comes preinstalled. So what. I bet MX will over time become even better, since it's developers do listen to suggestions.
Again, I really hope you post somewhere your version. I'm genuinely (I would guess I'm not the only one) interested to see it. Why, to critique and ridicule it? No, but to pick up from it what I would like. And developers may adopt something from it too, if they like it. They have a forum, where they list user created flavors.
93 • Backups (by Ankleface Wroughtlandmire on 2019-04-23 13:55:13 GMT from Ecuador)
For backups, Duplicity on my web server because it speaks the Amazon S3 protocol directly. For my desktop systems, Borg is by far the best option for my needs.
94 • Backup (by Francesco Turco on 2019-04-23 15:56:43 GMT from Italy)
I successfully use btrbk for daily backups on my external hard drives. It automatically creates snapshots of btrfs subvolumes on the source filesystem and transfers them to your destination of choice.
95 • MX (by marmota on 2019-04-23 16:39:16 GMT from Chile)
Congrats to MX team. Keep up that great work!
MX has its own identity, there is no need to try be anything else.
And let trolls and haters be free with their own problems.
96 • @whoever (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-23 17:18:26 GMT from United States)
MY bright, new, shiny MX car has all the parts and then some. If your car doesn't have the knobs and control where it is convenient for YOU, that is YOUR problem, not anybody else's. Not other users' and certainly not the developers. You have some idee fixe about how a distro MUST be configured which you are trying to cram down everybody's throat.
BTW - you still haven't named a distro which in your opinion is perfect, or close to perfect. Do you even use Linux? Or are you a Window Fan just blowing hot air about bad Linux is?
97 • MX (by Nathan on 2019-04-23 19:32:38 GMT from United States)
I was surprised, upon installing MX a few weeks ago, that its default settings were precisely what I had independently converged to from using XFCE on multiple machines for the past year, even down to the theming. Not sure if this reflects positively on the ergonomic brilliance of MX knowing exactly what I prefer, or negatively on my own preferences.
98 • @ dragonmouth 96 (by blah on 2019-04-23 19:45:37 GMT from Portugal)
One guy states his opinion on X distro and the fan boys berate him for said opinion. When he replies, apparently this is forcing his tastes down everybody else's throat. Clearly this is not the case, in-fact seemingly the other way round.
Also which operating system he uses is neither relevant nor some kind of medal of honour. Clearly he has used MX linux, and other distros, that is all which is important.
Now on the subject of shiny, new, bright- that most certainly is not MX linux. It is dull grey, old looking and debian stable. Conky in 2019. Bells and whistles is does not have. Is there anything wrong with any of that? No- it is a matter of taste- and human beings have different tastes. Grow up.
99 • MX (by James on 2019-04-23 19:59:52 GMT from Switzerland)
Apparently, MX-fans are not capable of accepting critical views regarding their favorite distro. @Whoever is right: MX is not the best per-configured Linux distro and, as he showed, the MX developers may do some things better. This should not be understand as a purely negative critique. In my opinion, a more professional approach to these questions will enhance the usability of all Linux distribution in general.
100 • Think Alpine as a base (by Sebastien on 2019-04-23 21:16:26 GMT from France)
More unexpected is Alpine as a base for an Android alternative :
https://postmarketos.org
101 • @98 & 99: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-23 21:55:57 GMT from United States)
Believe it or not, I am not an "MX fan" for many reasons. One them being the XFCE DE. I much prefer MX's predecessor, MEPIS which, unfortunately, is no longer being developed. I do not give a hoot either about what O/S Mr. whoever is using. However, since, according to him, "MX is probalbly one of the worst preconfigured Linux distributions ever and it looks awfull", I just would like him to give us the benefit of his experience in ergonomics and esthetics by telling us which distro or O/S he considers "the best preconfigured and good looking". On that topic he has remained strangely silent despite his verbose answers on other topics.
102 • Be specfic and correct use of its/it's (by Ted in Minnesota on 2019-04-23 22:40:47 GMT from United States)
@51 void from Brazil:
"They really ruined their Xfce desktop. If they made such a mess with the distro´s aesthetic, imagine what could have been made with other configuration options 'under the hood'."
[So what specifically did they "ruin"? Evidently you feel they did, so share the specifics with us since we are not mindreaders - TH]
@66 void
OK, I'm glad you know the difference between "it's" and "its". So many DW posters don't, as seen in post after post. (!) As a former proof-reader, I do:
"it's" = it is
"its" = a possessive: something owns something or is owned by something.
103 • Why do we need Feren OS? (by Kingneutron on 2019-04-23 23:13:02 GMT from United States)
Feren sounds like it has some good features, but why does it have to be a separate distro?? Why can't they just upstream the changes to Mint, which is already a derivative (albeit one of the most popular) of Ubuntu??
104 • MX/antiX: 1.) Kernel Deprecation 2.) Ideological Orthodoxy (by Dissident on 2019-04-23 23:29:57 GMT from Netherlands)
To say I've found much to like and appreciate about both MX as well as antiX would be an understatement; for some time already, I have found them to the two distros to perform reliably and comfortably well on my older hardware. That said, I do have some serious concerns and misgivings about both distros, chief among them as follows.
1.) The latest MX Linux release (18.2, April 08) ships with a kernel from December 2018. Is it not true that by the time any given kernel release has become that old (four-five months), it will have had numerous vulnerabilities discovered and patched in subsequent releases?
AntiX just announced the availability of updated kernels for all currently supported releases ( April 22nd; https://www.antixforum.com/spectre-and-meltdown-security-kernel-upgrades/ ). The last such announcement was dated late February, now roughly two months ago.
Is no one else bothered by this apparent lack of timely kernel updates in these two distros? (Granted, MX seems much worse than antiX in this regard.)
2.) I also wonder, in the case of antiX at least, how many others find themselves uncomfortable with the way that both the primary developer, "anticapitalista", as well as at least several other apparently prominent members of the community blatantly impose their personal ideological and political views (in areas unrelated to Linux and tech) upon their work on the distro and those who use it. See the threads at the URLs below for a number of posts in which the authors could hardly have made it any clearer that those who do not subscribe to their patently tendentious, doctrinaire Narrative have no place in the antiX community:
https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/name-ideas-for-next-antix-gnu-linux-distro/
https://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/fund-drive/page/2/#post-13371
105 • how did creating beackups turn into MX discussion? (by bobtronworldwide on 2019-04-24 00:10:41 GMT from United States)
Greetings from Illinois land USA...I have no reason to get paranoid enough to make backup/clones of drives or partitions hourly/daily/weekly/monthly but plenty of stuff in the toolbox is my choice when i want to use it.
That said, it seems the debate about MX rages on {from a Mepis/Antix//MX }guy since MX-14...I have played around with them and I found them to be very useful..Lets not start about the SystemD"ebate" stuff either.
If the debate is about niggity-diggty stuff about themes and taskbar placement or XFCE for noobies go pinch your doink..I think they would best be suited for any version of Puppy Linux [JWM} {which is in my toolbox too}..
[my "wink" to Barry Kauler --Puppy Master]
Cheers!
106 • ever since MX topped Manjero (by bobtronworldwide on 2019-04-24 00:44:24 GMT from United States)
It is sad, there are too many boo-wah cry babies that OOTB MX-linux is
"not for noobies"?...really?...maybe it should be labelled?...YMMV !!
107 • MX/antiX rant (by Andy Figueroa on 2019-04-24 03:11:21 GMT from United States)
#104 Dissident: That was a meaningless rant. If you actually used the distro you would find the the installed kernels get regular updates because security issues are quickly backported to all supported kernels. (You have to use it to know what's going on.) Bleeding edge kernels cause users bleeding edge problems.
Regarding politics, it seems that you can't take a joke.
108 • @105 RE: MX Discussion (by Rev_Don on 2019-04-24 03:26:13 GMT from United States)
At least it isn't the usual systemd fight.
109 • MX Average Visitor Rating (by Andy Figueroa on 2019-04-24 03:29:37 GMT from United States)
Average visitor rating: 9.13/10 really means something. Totally apart from the page hit ranking, the MX average visitor rating is significantly higher than the rest of the top 10 page hit ranked distros, even considering all of the obviously troll reviews that have been left. This is consistent with the many happy users posting in the MX forums and the MX Facebook page. My main distro is Gentoo, but I'm putting forward MX Linux as the best choice for new users. (Disclaimer -- I have no affiliation with MX Linux -- I'm just one of many happy users.)
110 • @Nathan (by bottomleft on 2019-04-24 03:31:17 GMT from Australia)
@97
exactly the same for me. panel on left, start menu on bottom has been my standard Xforce way for ages. i set Solus and its Budgie like that even. Cinnamon annoys me in its lack of tweakability. anyway, fond memories of MX. i used it for 2 years happily. it's efficient and reliable, and the team deserve the attention of being number 1 on distrowatch. Debian is legendary but i moved from that rock into the more exciting world of a rolling release
111 • Feren (by Andy Figueroa on 2019-04-24 03:50:18 GMT from United States)
After reading #103 • Why do we need Feren OS? I checked it out through their web site. Not impressive, incoherent, ungrammatical and poorly spelled ramblings of a web site for a hobby OS that appears to merely tweak Mint settings. I appreciate DistroWatch but who is minding the store? OK, I'm done for the week.
112 • @101: (by whoever on 2019-04-24 08:41:59 GMT from Switzerland)
Could you imagine that some people have some real life beside DistroWatch?
I am using Linux Mint 19.1 (which has bad defaults) and Neon (with acceptable defaults) beside Windows 10 and macOS 13.
And why I'm using something 'suboptimal'? One OS is much more than the small part that's discussed here and also because, it doesn't help a lot finding a 'perfect by all means' system which doesn't play nice together with the HW in use.
Also, since I'm not just an 'avarage user', the same rules do not apply on me.
As of ergomics ...
[We are still discussing the DEFAULTS (NOT 'I love', 'I like', 'with a couple of clicks, I can') and we are still discussing the "Visual design" (which is, as it's name says, just one small part of UI/UX but, the relevant part for "one of the worst preconfigured Linux distributions").]
What comes closest to proper ergomics in Linux world is the brand new Ubuntu Kylin 19.04 and Rosa Linux fresh 11 plasma.
I didn't yet use Kylin long enough to say how it would behave in a day to day use but, as of optics, it has pretty good basics, clear icons, good default theme,nice fonts and good contrast.
Rosa, as any other Plasma, has too low font contrast but appart of that, it comes closest to 'proper defaults'.
What it makes it better than kUbuntu or Neon is a preset Kicker menu and better default theme.
Sure you could add the theme, replace the start menu and change the font contrast on kUbuntu and Neon but, Rosa still wins -- it needs one change instead of three to 'fix it'.
113 • backup & MX :-) (by former on 2019-04-24 08:46:09 GMT from Netherlands)
Backup: Timeshift and MX's snapshot & manual copy of 'data'
MX: making some changes, but leaving taskbar on the left side, right place for me.
Off Topic: I love '3M' at the top of DW rankings, I don't care in which order, MX, Manjaro, Mint. Of the three I use first two, but started with Mint and I like them all. Xfce rocks ;-) But recently leaning toward no systemd MX. My windows using friends are getting on their old computers MX.
114 • @102: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-24 09:06:35 GMT from Switzerland)
@102: "So what specifically did they "ruin"? ... share the specifics with us ..."
@109: Average visitor is not the same as Avarage user ... Visitors are the guys like you; users are also hundreds of thousands of people who don't even know that DistroWatch exists or tens of thousends of corporate users and so on. Avarage visitor ratings are as worth as the knowledge and the experience of those users -- bigest part of those ratings are not relevant.
Since nobody yet brought any arguments and answered at #62, I feel I owe you the explanation on the https://ibb.co/zZj5GKT part of "Visual design" and bad defaults story.
What specifically did they "ruin"?
First “the beginning”. Where is the beginning of a screen? Since most of us are reading left to right, top to bottom, the beginning is top left and the end bottom right.
Correct (== 'natural') Task Bar must be positioned at the top or at the left hand side.
Tool bar at the bottom is ergonomicaly wrong but, it is perfectly acceptable. Why?
In Windows, it's at the bottom for decades already and everybody got used to it.
1. Start menu button (highest importance) must always be on the “the beginning”. Logout/Exit button (lowest importance) must always be positioned at “the end”. On MX task bar, we start with the end. Also the color: Green signalises "Go", "Start" ... Start working with "Start the shutdown sequence" is MX default setting. Misplaced control elements.
2. UI elements that have size of “dirt on the screen”, more some sort of dead pixels then the usable UI elements: clock and desktop switcher which are too tiny to be read/be useful.
3. Icons of all sizes (and shapes) mixed together, too close together, put apart only by a countless, unnecessary separators.
If one puts the Start on top left, most used shortcuts like Minimize, Terminal, File Manager and Web Browser just underneath, open windows in the middle of the bar and keep other informational elements at the bottom, one gets the elements placed in a “natural way” (better separated and grouped), they are there where one would expect them and the icon size differences are not as disturbing anymore since they are far away from each other – shortcuts at the top, big space in between, informational icons at the bottom. Trash bin at the very bottom gives “the end” illusion to the task bar (and it’s more important than the unusable desktop switcher for most of the people).
Clock, separated in two (hours/minutes), makes it actually usable in vertical configuration – big numbers that one can read are not a matter of taste but, they are matter of usability. Elderly population is growing constantly and they don’t have “100 % eyesight” anymore - that’s the fact.
4. Colors … Red signalizes "Alert", “Danger”, "Stop", "Do something about it"; green signalizes “OK”. Why green box is showing the danger? Red shield showing ('warning, warning') that there is a new update seems much more logical. White or green shield are showing “status OK”. Every system has security related elements shown through the shield symbol. Why use a box and then even a box in the wrong color?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/uxguide/vis-color
For the end – the icon theme. Which type one uses is one thing but then, one needs to use that one type all over the system. On the task bar, in the start menu, in the settings ... give it a consistent look. Consistent look is not “good” or “bad”, it’s “consistent” – and “consistant” is always “good”! Why use Papirus on the task bar, Moka, hicolor and some in the settings?
And allways remember two things:
1. We are still talking about DEFAULTS, not about the personal preferences
2. Imagine your grandma, who doesn't care for the OS and is happy if she can find how to start the Firefox is trying to use it -- she's unable to change anything and forced to use what she gets -- the dafaults -- as is.
115 • To backup or not to backup (by far2fish on 2019-04-24 10:33:57 GMT from Norway)
I stopped doing backup of my laptop files years ago.
Everything on my laptop from configuration files to frequently used data files are created using automation (currently Ansible).
The automation scripts are kept on a remote git server. Data is equally fetched on demand from remote storage and cloud services.
In the event of an issue, I could reinstall, and then spend about 10 minutes having the automation script setup everything again.
116 • @104 Dissident: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-24 13:09:39 GMT from United States)
Would you boycott a distro just because of the political views of the developer? As long as the politics do not affect the distro, I do not care if the developer is a fascist, communist,satanist or Mother Teresa. A few years ago, there was a movement to boycott Mint Linux because of some statements that Clement Lefebvre, the driving force behind its development, made. Either the statements were not that controversial or the Linux community just went "So?" because Mint never lost its popularity.
anticapitalista is left of center. So what? His handle should have given you a hint to his political leanings. He develops two of the most popular distros in DW PHR. Either MX and antiX users are all left of center themselves or they don't give a damn. anticapitalista is not using MX and/or antiX to proselytize his views.
117 • @112 whoever: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-24 13:18:38 GMT from United States)
Thank you for naming your preferred distros.
Personally I do not find the Kickoff Menu particularly ergonomic or convenient. But then I do not have your expertise in esthetics and ergonomics. I'm just a user for whom the "Classic" menu just works.
118 • About rsync (T&T review) (by Yuri on 2019-04-24 13:42:57 GMT from Germany)
I think, Jesse not mentioned two important features rsync-a in t&t review:
1. ability to work as system svc.(daemon).
2. ability to create hard link (in destination) to already existing and not changed since last backup files.
(last feature used in various "Time Machine"-like backup solutions)
119 • Xfce 4.13 (by Xfce desktop on 2019-04-24 13:45:19 GMT from Finland)
@65 "My preferred DE is Xfce but it does not play nice anymore with GTK3 toolkit and it´s window manager is broken/buggy."
Update the Xfce desktop to 4.13, it uses the gtk3 toolkit.
https://packages.debian.org/experimental/xfce/
120 • @117: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-24 14:16:25 GMT from Switzerland)
You're welcome.
#31 basically told you why the Kicker is better default choice.
"Ergonomics is a science-based discipline that brings together knowledge from other subjects such ... in optimizing performance ..."
"Optimizing performance" === "Efficiency" (do as much as possible in the least amount of time)
I'll simplify it to the maximum: Efficiency of some start menu depends on number of clicks and (mouse) way to travel (please let all other things out of considerations here) needed to get the job done.
Now, "Classic" menu:
1st click: open menu
2/3rd: travel and travel to "Applications/Office" category
4th click: open submenu (== category)
5th click: open application itself
Opposed to Kicker:
1st click: open menu
2nd: travel to category
3rd: open application
Functionality is basically the same: you get "last open", you get "favorites" ... the travel way is shorter and it needs fewer clicks to achieve the same == higher efficiency.
You may like it or not, that's your personal preference and you'll choose whatever you prefer but, Kicker is a better default.
Now why Rosa Kicker is better than Neon, kUbuntu or some other Kicker?
Simple. Remember colors? Please have a look at the screenshot and compare it to other two. (https://ibb.co/tpXQV7T)
121 • to @86 (RAID types and backups) (by Yuri on 2019-04-24 14:27:56 GMT from Germany)
If you really have RAID0 then your data not protected from damaged disk.
Moreover, RAID is not a backup solution data. RAID - is for high reliability machine solution.
(sorry for my eng.lng.)
122 • Interesting current numbers from DistroWatch. (by R. Cain on 2019-04-24 14:57:56 GMT from United States)
DistroWatch; 24 April, 2019; 1345 GMT
"Last 7 Days Page Hit Ranking":
MX-Linux: 5141 (#1, and rising)
Ubuntu: 2214 (#3, and rising)
Mint: 2195 (#4, and falling)
I cannot remember the last time a distribution had a Page Hit number of 5000 or greater; if anyone has some information, feel free to help out (this offer absolutely excludes 'un-fanboises' who have nothing but negatives--and a LOT of words--to offer).
Regarding Ubuntu and Mint: when Mint (a) decided to wholeheartedly adopt Ubuntu (read as "copy") without adding anything materially, *substantially* different or original; and stopped listening to its user-base--both of which were hallmarks of the organization responsible for the Linux Mint which once occupied DistroWatch's #1 position FOR YEARS--this was inevitable
[for all you who think that DistroWatch's data collection efforts "...don't mean anything..."--I will never forget the response of a Mint 'moderator' when I pointed out that Mint 18 had dropped out of first place in DW's 7-day ranking, and that Mr Lefebvre needed to get all the serious problems with v. 18--which were being actively and very vocally reported by Mint' users--fixed: "Clem can't be concerned with a temporary drop in ratings from an insignificant source...". Of course not, and here we have the results].
Linux Mint--now just one MORE Ubuntu package.
Kubuntu: Ubuntu with KDE. Mint: Ubuntu with Cinnamon.
123 • FreeFileSync (by bgstack15 on 2019-04-24 15:19:55 GMT from United States)
On console systems I use rsync like most sysadmins. My main server backup script is basically a wrapper for rsync.
For smaller backups and one-offs and graphical environments, I use FreeFileSync, like @33. I like it so much that I maintain a copr for Fedora and CentOS for FreeFileSync. I also build it for devuan (debian dir on my gitlab) and so can anyone else.
124 • @122 not exactly (by OstroL on 2019-04-24 15:49:57 GMT from Poland)
"Kubuntu: Ubuntu with KDE. Mint: Ubuntu with Cinnamon."
Not exactly. If they developers of Kubuntu and Linux Mint had used Ubuntu (as in Ubuntu with Gnome shell) to build their distros, they won't go too far, They are only using the base packages, without the default Ubuntu.
Both Kubunu and Linux Mint are much, much more than Ubuntu (as with Gnome shell). And, much much better. The default Ubuntu is more like reborn Windows 8.
125 • @120: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-24 16:49:28 GMT from United States)
"Kicker is better default choice."
Theoretically. You keep missing one very important point - HUMAN NATURE. No matter what science, scientists, pundits and experts say, people will do what they want and what they are used to and comfortable with. Science says smoking is unhealthy. People keep smoking. Science says fast food is unhealthy, people can't get enough of it. Science says MX is ergonomically incorrect. MX leads PHR by a wide margin. I agree that esthetics and ergonomics make things more efficient. However, no matter how much you flog the ergonomics issue, you will not change people's minds if they are comfortable with what they using currently.
126 • @122 RCain: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-24 16:56:14 GMT from United States)
"I cannot remember the last time a distribution had a Page Hit number of 5000 or greater; "
Maybe those are the masochists that like ergonomically incorrect and esthetically unpleasing distros? /GRIN
127 • @124 OstroL: (by dragonmouth on 2019-04-24 17:02:32 GMT from United States)
"They are only using the base packages, without the default Ubuntu."
Base packages ARE "default Ubuntu".
All the myriad re-writes, respins, offshoots, knock-offs and/or community versions of Ubuntu are nothing more than Ubuntu with different cosmetics.
128 • stats (by Tim on 2019-04-24 17:31:22 GMT from United States)
@122 probably with intent to benefit prospective advertisers, distrowatch provides public access to their awstats page. From a quick skim reading today, I noticed that MX is present (is evident in search term URL querystring of 'referer' https header) near the top of "Search Keyphrases"... and that 2,973 folks hit /dwres/torrents/MX-18.2_x64.torrent directly (entry URL), apparently as the result of performing a websearch "MX ... torrent".
Surprisingly (to me), the stats indicate nearly nil clickthru referrals from mxlinux.org website. Even MORE surprisingly (to me), the parrotsec.org website so far this month has driven 100k+ clickthroughs to distrowatch via the link on their site's homepage.
129 • @125: MX (by whoever on 2019-04-24 17:42:42 GMT from Switzerland)
"You keep missing one very important point - HUMAN NATURE."
No, I don't. "HUMAN NATURE" == "PERSONAL PREFERENCES" (NOT the DEFAULT)
(I'm a smoker too. Life-long smokers loose in average 14 years of their life.)
Enjoy the "Classic" but, more than anything else -- enjoy the life -- smoker or not. ;)
130 • RE: 128 stats (by ladislav on 2019-04-24 17:46:47 GMT from Taiwan)
Obviously the clicks coming from parrotsec.org are ignored when generating the PHR figures (as are any excessive clicks coming from other distro websites). Otherwise Parrot would be top of the table by an enormous margin!
131 • @ 127 default Ubuntu (by pip on 2019-04-24 21:41:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
Default Ubuntu is the distro that comes with the gnome shell, the reddish one. That's the only Ubuntu there. The rest are "derivatives," and all those derivatives are made off the base packages in the Ubuntu repo, which in turn don't carry the name Ubuntu. If the start respinning their derivatives off the "default" distro, they'd get nonsense, instead of fully working, and better distro.
Linux Mint is done the same way, but wouldn't consider itself a derivative, nor try to be one.
Ubuntu, dragonmouth, is the reddish one, now with the Gnome shell.
And, if you are such a brainy one, how about making a Cinnamon distro with Disco? You'd never succeed, other than making a 2nd rated Mint. Oh, try and make KDE version of Ubuntu Disco. You won't succeed, period!
132 • @130 clicks (by Ostrol on 2019-04-24 21:49:48 GMT from Poland)
What about clicks coming from live isos, from the same computer? And, from mobile phone, moving around? And, from different web browsers from the mobile phone on the move? Clicks coming from free wifi services? Don't they accumulate?
133 • Distro Stuff (by M.Z. on 2019-04-24 21:57:05 GMT from United States)
@74 & 75
I played with the trends a bit, but I'm not at all convinced that any particular google search is better than the generic catchall terms like 'debian' or 'linux mint'. At any rate 'ubuntu' seems to dominate the Linux related searches that I can come up with & is still a far better guess for most used distro than what is trendy here on DW. I can see how adding 'download' could predict intent, but to me simple name recognition counts for even more & is reasonably predictive of likeness to install. Debian still makes a good showing & Mint does okay; however, Ubuntu seems to have far more name recognition among a general audience. I don't think its the best, but it seems like the most known & used.
@122
"...decided to wholeheartedly adopt Ubuntu..."
There has been no change in how close Mint has been to upstream projects & you can still select either Ubuntu or Debian based versions of Mint. In addition there are are variety of tools like Mint's independently derived software manager, which has further differentiated it's self by adding Flatpak support rather than using Ubuntu based 'Snap' packages in the last few releases.
Not sure why you decided to throw FUD, but it seems fairly ill informed. Mint tools are still around, & there are X-apps & other things that set Mint apart while making things easier for PC users.
134 • Xfce and GTK3.... (by Mattie M on 2019-04-24 23:09:10 GMT from Netherlands)
@65:
Quote: "My preferred DE is Xfce but it does not play nice anymore with GTK3 toolkit and it´s window manager is broken/buggy".
I totally agree with you. Since Xfce chose GTK3 it looks ugly, just like all the GNOME 3 programs. GTK3 is a real turn-off on every Linux distro, but it seems harder and harder to avoid.
If you only look at the way GTK3 make programs look is just awful. No borders, big icons, big letters... it hurts my eyes. And take away a lot of screen space. For instance: the LibreOffice tabbed panel uses almost 33% of my 1366x768 screen. With GTK2 it was less than 25%. There is no detail anymore when programs use GTK3. It's all one big mess thrown into one big grey panel.
The fact that programs based on GTK3 don't change when you set another theme is another, very annoying thing. Linux distro never looked more inconsistent these days. Some programs follow the theme of choice, while programs working with GTK3 stay the same: ugly!
I love Linux, but I can't stand the inconsistency anymore. Almost every desktop, even the by me so intensely loved Xfce is ready to abandon.
GTK3 makes it less fun for me. I like an consistent desktop, with programs that fit into the DE. But the boys and girls from GNOME messed it all up. It's a shame... :-(
135 • @134 (by void on 2019-04-25 02:08:10 GMT from Brazil)
"The fact that programs based on GTK3 don't change when you set another theme is another, very annoying thing. "
Since my last message, I´ve been exploring some themes and found that 'Greybird' works alright with GTK2 and GTK3 under Xfce, with and without compositing. I really like it and is my new favourite. I think it is available on most distros.
For Ubuntu/Mint and maybe Debian try:
apt-get install greybird-gtk-theme
136 • The Great UI Debate (by Vakkotaur on 2019-04-25 06:32:37 GMT from United States)
It's been amusing reading, I'll say that. There might be some point that MX or Xfce needs some improvement. But that that makes such terrible is another matter. I've ceased distro-hopping a while ago (Mandrake, Fedora, PCLinuxOS, *buntu, assorted Slackware derivatives, pretty much settled on Mint as it's close) and precisely NONE were perfect for me "out of the box" (though PCLinuxOS 2007 was mighty close!). And that's not a Linux thing. Had the same experience with every version of Windows I ever ran (3.1[1], 95, 98, NT, 2000) and MacOS.
And I am certain that if I were to spend the time and effort to make something "just so" for me and release it to the world, it would not survive contact with other users.
137 • Xfce and GTK3 (by James on 2019-04-25 08:59:52 GMT from Switzerland)
Using Adwaita Theme on Rosa 11 (Xfce 4.13): very consistent, much better than Xfce 4.12. I wait for Xfce 4.14 and think it will be fine.
138 • MX and design (by mechanic on 2019-04-25 11:06:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
I see that in later posts the truism that Disagreement != Trolling seems to have been taken on board; I wonder what Steve Jobs would have said in this debate? He would have strongly resisted poor design decisions just as he did when in charge of the Macintosh team at Apple.
I suppose the lack of polish in many Linux distros is simply down to the lack of manpower and time, these one-man band development teams are not suited to modern software efforts, and developers don't seem to like doing it anyway.
139 • MATE (by Tim on 2019-04-25 13:47:15 GMT from United States)
@ 134
I would recommend trying MATE at this point. The switch to GTK3 was completed a couple of years ago but using MATE tweak and choosing traditional makes it look almost like GNOME 2. Unless you really look hard, it's hard to tell it's GTK3.
140 • Disagreement = Trolling (by Friar Tux on 2019-04-25 17:06:53 GMT from Canada)
@138 (mechanic) I disagree with 'Disagreement != Trolling'. Trolling is done with sarcastic/malicious intent. Disagreement isn't necessarily meant in a negative way. People have their views and views are meant to be shared, discussed, etc.. Sometimes a person's passion will show through the intensity of the language used. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe any views here have been expressed in a 'trolling' manner.
As for the 'one-man band development teams', I believe, if you check, you will find that most of Linux/Unix/BSD exists because of 'one-man band development teams'. And the fact that I, as a one-man band, can take what you've developed and change/improve/expand it, then share it back with the Linux community. (Try that with Windows and see what happens.) This is why I have come to love Linux. It is this passionate bantering back and forth that gets ideas flowing, and developers developing.
@139 (Tim) My thoughts exactly.
141 • Alpine Linux (by johnm on 2019-04-25 18:48:59 GMT from United States)
I played with Alpine (xfce4) on a laptop I had for about a year. And the I started learning about Containers. Google "docker tutorial alpine" and see where Alpine really does it's work. And them look for "docker tutorial alpine nginx" for a small web server environment for that container.
142 • DW skewing and MX (by Chris Whelan on 2019-04-26 10:53:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
@38
1) AIUI, DW only permits one click per distro to be recorded in each 24 hour period, based on IP, so multiple clicks would not affect the results.
2) The Admins on the MX Linux forum are very strict; any post of the type you suggest would be removed straight away. The poster would be warned the first time. and removed for a subsequent transgression.
143 • Distrowatch H.P.D. Ranking (by void on 2019-04-26 11:47:04 GMT from Brazil)
Of course Distrowatch ranking has few correlation with distros popularity - Ubuntu and Debian are *way* more popular than MX.
Viewers probably click entries by curiosity. I.E. I use Linux Mint, but I never click Mint´s DW entry; otherwise I´ve clicked MX page a few times just to know what is all about: Read some reviews, download ISO etc. I dont´t even like MX, but contributed to DWHPD.
I think it would be better for the Linux comunity if they extinguished that thing as it just increases segregation and hate beetwen users.
144 • XFCE Part 1 (by whoever on 2019-04-26 11:58:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
This discussion about XFCE is a beautiful example for what I've said about the Linux Distribution developers and the importance of proper default settings. DEFAULT === Make it usable for the largest possible amount of people. Let's see some examples ...
Here you can see how one and the same theme behaves in two different Linux distributions. The theme is called "XFCE-D-PRO" and the screenshots show you the latest Devuan and MX.
Devuan: https://ibb.co/RpjxRVX
MX: https://ibb.co/3Rr3QGw
Now, why do we get those differences?
Besides XFCE being in transition from GTK2 to GTK3 (which in itself is actually not a problem, it just makes some things more difficult -- there are gtk2 & gtk3 libraries in repositories), the most important thing is to know which themes one is downloading and how they were written ('dependecies').
Some older XFCE themes support only GTK2 (and will obviously not work any more). Newer ones will support both, GTK2 & GTK3. You can easily find it out yourself, if you navigate to your themes folder and check what's inside.
This theme clearly has all three components needed for XFCE to work properly and still, it very obviously doesn't work.
https://ibb.co/NTGZHS3
So, why's that? On my screenshot, you can see all three needed folders highlighted but, you can also see the word "murrine".
To make it simple: for a WM, some prerequisites are needed so that they can properly render on the screen. There are many different 'engines' and if they are missing, your themes will not work properly.
Different theme developers use different techniques and need different 'helpers' (=='engines') to get their themes work. Some mention it clearly, some less clear, some not at all.
Example ("GTK2 ENGINES REQUIREMENT"):
https://github.com/paullinuxthemer/Ambiance-RW
It's the same author that made the XFCE-D-PRO:
https://github.com/paullinuxthemer/XFCE-D-PRO
https://github.com/paullinuxthemer/PRO-Dark-XFCE-Edition
https://www.xfce-look.org/p/1207818/
At this point, the defaults come back in game...
145 • XFCE Part 2 (by whoever on 2019-04-26 11:59:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
Since most of the themes will need "Murrine" and "Pixbuf" to render properly, they should be also included by default and since the vast majority of people simply does not care not even for the OS installed (let alone the Distribution or its version), it's a job of the distribution developers to insure that 'everything just works for everybody'.
[Everything 4 everybody is of course just illussion, it's completely impossible but, it should at least work for the most, 'as many as possible'.]
Additional problem is a choice of applications used.
Distro makers have to decide what applications to include as default. This leads us to a general Linux problematics and the reason why it's impossible to make any consistent Linux distribution which will be usable for everyday work -- if you make it usable, it'll be inconsistent; if you make it consistent, it'll become unusable.
Different important applications, use different frameworks. You get GTK2, GTK3, QT4, QT5 ... to name only some.
Here is one screenshot of MX XFCE with 3 open applicatons: Archiver and 2 text editors. I added the Mousepad only to show the problematics better.
https://ibb.co/HCyWyYb
Each of those looks and behaves different and those were only 3: GTK3, QT5 and GTK2. If you now, for example, add Scribus, you've got QT4 too. And then, there are some like LibreOffice, Firefox, Chromium ... that follow none of the frameworks above. That's a chaos pure. Especially if you add Flatpak and Snaps to it too.
Speaking about XFCE-D-PRO, if anybody chooses to try it, be aware that it has one important issue.
XFCE-D-PRO before the fix:
https://ibb.co/QbBrfTQ
XFCE-D-PRO with my emergency-fix:
https://ibb.co/nR2Rgx2
XFCE-D-PRO in MX:
https://ibb.co/6WbYHQX
146 • @144 @145 chaos (by void on 2019-04-26 12:19:16 GMT from Brazil)
There is also the "Save as" dialog chaos!
147 • too much (by Tim on 2019-04-26 17:06:11 GMT from United States)
I just want to point out that you're arguing about something that has no impact on most users.
I pick a distro that has the default apps I like best, but I have a list of apps I always install. I live in a GTK world, but I trust K3b more for image burning, for example. That requires qt, as does virtualbox.
This doesn't affect performance, it's completely transparent to the user, and barely requires any extra space on disk. The only effect is that it looks slightly different than other apps. Is that really worth all this vitriol?
148 • @147: too much (by whoever on 2019-04-26 17:59:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
I don't know if it's too much for you. You don't have to read it at all, at the end.
Some people here were talking about their negative experiences with XFCE and one part of them might be interested to find out why.
If all I wrote is completely useless and too much, please ask moderators to remove it.
149 • @147 (by void on 2019-04-26 20:40:38 GMT from Brazil)
"I just want to point out that you're arguing about something that has no impact on most users."
Maybe that is true for more advanced users, but for newcomers that might be a little confusing. For example: some Qt applications open their file selection boxes in file system´s root instead of user´s home directory, where they expect to find their files.
150 • @104 re: The Unbearable Imposition of Views (by kernelKurtz on 2019-04-28 01:58:47 GMT from United States)
Dissident, per Miriam Godwinson, I must dissent.
First of all, I don't think you have a very good handle on what "impose" means. If you had been prompted at download time to click through an EULA indicating your hatred of fascists, maybe you could argue that it was an imposition. Especially if the downloading party was in fact a fascist.
But under the actual circumstances, there isn't any imposing going on, except in your head.
Secondly, if you want to run a *pro*-capitalista operating system, all you have to do is run one that is, er, imposed on the world by a for-profit corporation, like Canonical, or Red Hat, or the ones in Cupertino and Redmond on the US West Coast. You have a wealth of choices, pardon the paronomasia.
Personally the fact that a distro I really like anyway is also playing at the edges with anarchic and rebellious imagery, and honoring people who we've lost fighting the best of fights ... those are just small and delighting perqs.
151 • Alpine with nextcloud (by CH on 2019-04-28 11:22:50 GMT from Germany)
Finding nextcloud on Alpine is as easy as: https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/packages?name=nextcloud&branch=edge
152 • @151 & @153 (by whoever on 2019-04-28 11:40:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Remember Galileo? (The majority have decided ...)
E pur si muove!
"It doesn't matter what you believe; these are the facts."
;)
153 • GTK3 and the look of Linux desktops.... (by Mattie M on 2019-04-28 12:09:16 GMT from Netherlands)
About the theme discussion I can be breef: All this inconsequense behaviour of themes is all GTK3's fault. I never liked GNOME 3, and to be perfectly frankly: I never liked any desktop environment who uses GTK3. I was a big fan of GNOME 2 and later Mate (in the beginning). But since GTK3 got into Mate it became just as shitty as the rest of the GTK3-based desktops. The same is happening to Xfce, to my sincere sadness.
On advice of number 139 I tried Mate. I installed Manjaro Mate. The first thing that noticed me was the inconsistency on how it looks. On GNOME 2, Mate's originator, it was possible to even change the color of your windows by just choosing a colour with a colour picker, and BAM, it was done. Now, if you change a theme, even the top panel of the window is changing. If I don't want that, bad luck. Deal with it!
I've been struggling with the themes so badly yesterday evenening, that I came to the point to remove Manjaro Mate from the hard disk. I'll never use a Mate desktop again. Let's try Manjaro with i3.
Linux was about giving users choice on EVERY level. Now we get stuck on the shitty GTK3 toolkit. Almost every window manager or application is based on it or behaves like it. That is just NOT okay! I want to set things MY way. That one of the reasons why I use Linux. But thanks to the GNOME-team and their GTK3 toolkit everything has to follow their guidelines.
I don't have the knowledge, but I'm hoping to witness the arise of the GTK2 toolkit and make the desktop environments look great again. With a consistent look and feel.
Not everything gets better over time. As it becomes to theming Linux, it became worse. Linux looks once again like it's made by amateurs. Sorry for my strong words, but it's just the way I see things! Even if I hate Windows 10 and Microsoft, their OS looks more consistent than any Linux desktop these days. It hurts to say it, but it's true unfortunately....
154 • For The Truth Dig Into The Data & Context (by M.Z. on 2019-04-28 15:47:03 GMT from United States)
Without context, the DW Page Hit Ranking is a useless bit of noise & a meaningless data point, as is every other measure is the world until you find out about the reliability of the information and can calibrate expectations & decide on usefulness. Unfortunately some people makes decisions on the importance of something without context or evidence & stick to their guns in the face of any fact based argument. That's the very reason the scientific method was developed & the process of peer review is used to demand people prove their claims to skeptical experts before they are published in a respectable scientific journal.
I don't expect too much scientific rigour here; however, for any claim to be reasonable & valid it needs to hold up to a little scrutiny & look good when put next to a reasonable amount of context. If you care about Distros & their DW Page Hit Rankings, take just a minute to dig into the info about DW PHR right here on DistroWatch. When armed with info direct from the source, you can decide how important DW PHR is, what it really means, & when people are just making noise.
See here, or at the top of the DW page:
https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity
155 • @103 & @111 (by greg on 2019-04-28 17:37:00 GMT from United States)
I'm sorry I didn't catch your posts earlier. If Ubuntu had kept the Gnome 2 desktop, I would probably still be using it. I tried Mint, but it just wasn't my cup of tea. The reason I like Feren is its flexibility. Try the theme changer. It easily changed my desktop to a Mac OSX look. If you want a Windows look, it can do that too.
156 • MXLinux (by Jordan on 2019-04-28 23:58:07 GMT from United States)
It's at the top HERE because it's clicked here more than other distro links HERE.
This harangue about the PHR HERE at DW has been going on off and on for YEARS. And yet it's explained by the site operators as being a light-hearted endeavor, at best.
Okay. But.. some distros do rise to the top and some remain at and near the bottom and even vanish on that list. That's a reality. As far as any reflection on the popularity of a given distro world wide, that's silly to even contemplate: we're not Apple and/or Windows. We don't care.
Number of Comments: 156
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Resala Linux
Resala Linux Project was a single-CD distribution based on Fedora Core. The main objective was to: (a) create an Arabic-ready distribution to make it easy for computer users to use Linux in the Arabic-speaking countries, and (b) to open the door for all developers to contribute to a regional distribution. Resala Project was supported by Linux-Egypt.org where it will be maintained as a standalone project to allow contributions from everywhere and by everyone who can contribute.
Status: Discontinued
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