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1 • Poll (by DaveW on 2018-12-10 00:45:01 GMT from United States)
According to vrms, I have 6 non-free and 4 contrib packages installed on my Linux Mint system. I am not a FOSS addict, and had not worried about what was and was not free.
The major non-free software is Adobe Flash, SpiderOak, TeamViewer, and VirtualBox guest additions. Other than maybe Adobe Flash, I wouldn't think any of that is a hot-button issue.
2 • Non Free Programs (by Mike on 2018-12-10 00:48:11 GMT from Australia)
vrms reported 6 non-free apps. Two to do with microcode and 2 regarding Ubuntu fonts. I left these alone to avoid problems. I removed unrar which I never use and I left Adobe Flash-PlugIn as some websites may still need it.
3 • vrms (by Bob on 2018-12-10 01:05:34 GMT from United States)
2 non-free: amd and intel micorcode, and 1 contrib: iucode-tool (Intel processor microcode), on xubuntu 16.04.
4 • openSUSE Tumbleweed - Btrfs sucks (by Eric Yeoh on 2018-12-10 03:11:18 GMT from Malaysia)
I have been running Tumbleweed on my "media" computer i.e. connected to the TV to consume DVDs, streaming media etc for close to a year now. I made it a point to *NOT* use Btfrs and only use XFS on my filesystems. Yes - the frequent large updates can be a pain - but that is given since it is a rolling release distro. I have never needed thus far to troubleshoot anything. Connected to a large TV also makes it easier for me to reply to mails or even do a little social media. Even for my SLED/S 15 deployments - I pass on Btfrs and all would be good.
5 • Non-Free Software (by Not_Bob on 2018-12-10 03:30:55 GMT from United States)
I am sure I have plenty of non-free software on my computer, but I don't care because its way more important to me to have a computer I can use for all my needs than it is for me to live with, let's see, a my wireless card not working.
6 • Trisquel (by saravanan on 2018-12-10 03:43:12 GMT from India)
I used Trisquel for nearly a year. Linux libre is good but may be i should be born on a country with more money in my pocket to hold and buy from a company which sells linux libre hardware, service and support. Libre sums down only when the hardware too is libre.
7 • How much non-free software? (by R. Cain on 2018-12-10 03:52:34 GMT from United States)
Assuming one utilizes due diligence by choosing to use only highly-regarded, highly-rated distributions; and then utilizes the same criteria in choosing applications, non-free software on one's system is a moot point--all one's software has been 'vetted by the marketplace' much more thoroughly than any one individual could conceivably do. It might provide an interesting fact and point of discussion regarding one's system, but there is no need for this to be a matter of concern whatever.
8 • "The Advent of Void" (by tim on 2018-12-10 04:12:18 GMT from United States)
Last year I really enjoyed reading "The Advent of Void" but the javascripted falling snowflakes animation hogged CPU usage and seemed to introduce a memory leak. Oops, tonight I discovered the same javascripted glitz is in use and same (leaky) bug exists. I hope the site operators will take notice of this report and remove the animation script.
9 • Suse (by JC on 2018-12-10 05:52:24 GMT from United States)
That printer problem is why I haven't been able to use any SUSE product in a long time. It happens with the "stable" releases as well.
10 • NFS (by zykoda on 2018-12-10 07:38:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
vrms reports 15 non-free and 10 contributed of 2915 installed on everyday mint18.3 distro. Other distros and multi-boot facilities have similar. Just upgraded CPU from Phenom X4 955 to FX-8320 on main machine so that anbox now works (SSE 4.1, 4.2, 4A required)
11 • How much non-free software? (by lincoln on 2018-12-10 07:49:03 GMT from Brazil)
No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian! rms would be proud.
Debian is amazing and very stable. I am happy with it.
12 • OpenSuse Tumbleweed (by Klaus on 2018-12-10 08:21:29 GMT from Hong Kong)
Thanks to Jesse for the review. For those interested in trying OpenSuse Tumbleweed I think it would be useful to have a mini-review of Gecko-Linux Tumbleweed, to see whether it solves most of the shortcomings.
I have been a SuSe/OpenSuse user for more than ten years and, though still my overall favourite distribution (for desktop use at work and mainly because of Yast), I am aware of some of its weaknesses. I've been using Gecko Tumbleweed since last year and it seems to fill some of the gaps of "factory" OpenSuse Tumbleweed.
13 • to FOSS or not? (by SOHO on 2018-12-10 08:25:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Brits have little choice as our semi-national broadcaster, the BBC, is riven with political corruption courtesy of the ruling Oxbridge mafia and in hock to devils like M$, thanks to their ignorance. As a result using the iPlayer for most regular folks means AdobeFlashPlayer is the most straightforward (but not only for the more adept) option. Even that situation is due to worsen as BBC funding is being cut further by the ever ill-informed politicians like a tourniquet to invoke compliance.
Apart from that, it is often better to work around the pathetic monetising attempts by misguided developers. Electorates should choose their representatives more carefully!
14 • OpenSuse Tumbleweed (by Saleem Khan on 2018-12-10 09:38:04 GMT from Pakistan)
If compared on the basis of being a rolling release which would rate higher , OpenSuse tumbleweed or Arch Linux?
15 • @14 about rolling release (by pin on 2018-12-10 09:52:04 GMT from Sweden)
None, instead Void Linux everyday of the week! Rolling release, no systemd, musl libC, libressl, runit, xbps and xbps-src. Your choice!
Been using it for almost two years now, no breakage so far. Total size on disk <5GB.
16 • To FOSS or not to FOSS (by Trevor on 2018-12-10 10:10:23 GMT from Canada)
Personally for me, if I don't have to use proprietary drivers I won't. The only reason why I use some proprietary drivers is so the computer, and its devices, can function. As the kernel and FOSS drivers progress, those proprietary drivers are being used less and less - and I'm perfectly fine with that. FOSS has come a long way from when I started using GNU/Linux 20 years ago. If you prefer FOSS just be patient - or get involved in making FOSS even better.
17 • @15: OpenSuse Tumbleweed Vs Arch (by Saleem Khan on 2018-12-10 10:10:35 GMT from Pakistan)
I thought void Linux was about to die , thought it has been abandoned by project leader so it's demise is inevitable like it happened to many projects in past .
18 • @17 (by pin on 2018-12-10 10:34:14 GMT from Sweden)
Void is alive and well. Yes, the creator of the project is not aboard anymore. It now is a community distro with more then a handfull of devoted devs. Look for yourself, https://github.com/void-linux
I'm more than happy with it and won't change my rolling release box for anything else. I have two other systems, but they are not based on a rolling release.
19 • Fedora and FOSS (by Christian on 2018-12-10 11:50:26 GMT from Brazil)
A few years back, Fedora was on the FSF FOSS list. It's not the case for a while now. I was surprised to run VRMS on my Fedora 29 system and find 48 non-free packages. I know this isn't the default install, but I honestly tought it would be considerably less.
Yes, it is harder to use a Linux distro that follows the strict FSF standards. However, if people won't start using, is won't move forward.
Perhaps (if there are any devs reading this), the Software Center (Gnome's Software or KDE's Discover, etc), could have an option to offer you a FOSS alternative to what you're trying to install before actually installing.
20 • Non-free packages (by Jim on 2018-12-10 11:56:11 GMT from United States)
Not only did I answer I don't know, I guess I really don't care. I want my stuff to work and if non-free packages are offered and work better I will use them. I also have a feeling if I tried to remove them, on the next boot my machine might not just boot up. I know I am not all that great technically.
21 • Non-free packages (by Sebastian on 2018-12-10 12:14:28 GMT from Germany)
vrms reports 46 non-free and 16 contrib packages on my Debian 9 laptop. I rely on a bunch of drivers, including for my Nvidia graphics cards, I also use Oracle Java for Minecraft, Skype, nautilus-dropbox and a bunch of non-free utilities
22 • Poll: (by dragonmouth on 2018-12-10 13:08:21 GMT from United States)
I do not prostrate myself at the FOSS altar. I do not care if non-free software is present or not. I just want things to work. I am more concerned about the growing cancer that is systemd.
23 • VRMS (by wally on 2018-12-10 14:11:31 GMT from United States)
34 - pc hardware and Epson scanner compatibility
24 • What a resentful review of OpenSUSE (Tumbleweed)! (by Gerhard Goetzhaber on 2018-12-10 14:12:49 GMT from Austria)
OpenSUSEs are great work of their maintainers! As I have tried many beta versions of Leap as well as evenly of SEL itself I know very well how difficult it must have been to yield end user capable systems for everybody out of the enterprise targeted origin. One just must learn to deal with that wonderful instrument Yast, especially with the software (and repository) manager!
Though the installer presents some favored layout of the distro (Btrfs on root, KDE Plasma for desktop) any engaged user may modify these defaults to whatever he will prefer for his own. So Me, I always set my OpenSUSE systems up on XFS and with Xfce only and this works great.
What belongs to video playing users should learn to know all the codec libraries needed including their dependencies, and it's just the Yast software manager that can help to go through this process of learning - better than offered within any other distro. In an OpenSUSE system, you have to replace no more than a two dozen original packages with up2date alternatives from the Packman repo to make every multimedia purposes fulfilled best. However, I must not give a list herein because that might bring a lot of legal trickery to OpenSUSE in the U.S.A. possibly ending up in having SUSE's maintainers do something to reject modifications of their distro much more than actually seen. So everybody, get you some experience to find out what to do by yourself!
25 • non-free packages (by debianxfce on 2018-12-10 14:25:48 GMT from Finland)
xfce@ryzenpc:~$ dpkg-query -W -f='${Section}\t${Package}\n' | grep ^non-free
non-free/admin amd64-microcode
non-free/kernel firmware-amd-graphics
non-free/kernel firmware-misc-nonfree
non-free/kernel firmware-realtek
non-free/libs nvidia-alternative
non-free/libs nvidia-legacy-check
non-free/games steam
Why, hardware needs firmware packages. I like gaming too.
26 • Poll (by Tim on 2018-12-10 14:43:34 GMT from United States)
I do not know how many non-free packages I have installed. I could not use the commands given because my distro does not use dpkg or apt. I do try to keep non-free packages to a minimum, though.
27 • Free software fanatics (by Jeff on 2018-12-10 14:52:38 GMT from United States)
It must be nice to live in an ivory tower and have unlimited money just given to you for the asking.
Many of us however are trying to use what we already own and cannot afford to go out and buy some very expensive 'free' hardware.
I agree more with dragonmouth myself, if the computer(s) I own need non-free software to run or do what I want them to do then that is what they have.
I too am more concerned with keeping the operating system called systemd out of my computers while I get Windows off of them. (Calling systemd an init system is like calling an automobile a cup holder)
28 • Poll (by some random user on 2018-12-10 15:03:43 GMT from United States)
According to vrms, I have 9 non-free and 10 contrib packages installed on my Lubuntu system. I am not a FOSS addict, and had not worried about what was and was not free.
user-name@pc-name:~$ dpkg-query -W -f='${Section}\t${Package}\n' | grep ^non-free
non-free/admin amd64-microcode
non-free/sound festlex-oald
non-free/fonts fonts-ubuntu
non-free/admin intel-microcode
non-free/sound mbrola
non-free/games openttd-opensfx
non-free/utils unrar
non-free/misc virtualbox-guest-additions-iso
user-name@pc-name:~$ dpkg-query -W -f='${Section}\t${Package}\n' | grep ^contrib
contrib/sound festvox-don
contrib/sound festvox-rablpc16k
contrib/web flashplugin-installer
contrib/utils iucode-tool
contrib/fonts ttf-mscorefonts-installer
contrib/misc virtualbox
contrib/kernel virtualbox-dkms
contrib/misc virtualbox-ext-pack
contrib/misc virtualbox-qt
contrib/otherosfs winetricks
user-name@pc-name:~$
29 • Poll (by Rick on 2018-12-10 15:23:51 GMT from United States)
Simply do not care. I just want it to work. If the thought police find me, oh well.
30 nsert Coins* to play mind-blowing drivers and firmware... (by Penny Slots on 2018-12-10 10:34:31 GMT from United States)
If the driver developers really want their money then they should initialize drivers like casino slot machine arcade games that go ding ding ding *Insert Coins* Now!
31 • vrms lists Tor Browser as non-free (by Jup on 2018-12-10 14:33:03 GMT from United States)
Does anybody know why vrms shows Tor Browser as non-free? I was under the impression that it is free and open source. Is it a security risk?
32 • Hyperbola (by Semiarticulate on 2018-12-10 15:33:47 GMT from United States)
Congratulations to the Hyperbola team! At home, my computer runs strictly free software. My car, on the other hand, not so much.
33 • @22 (by dave esktorp on 2018-12-10 15:35:56 GMT from United States)
systemd perfectly demonstrates that even hostile takeovers can be free/libre/open-source.
34 • RS Is Annoying, let the bastard rest (by RS Is Annoying on 2018-12-10 15:43:49 GMT from United States)
Stalman was a useful sperg in surviving the MS-sues-the-world-days, now that we are moving beyond that into MS-hires-lazy-idiots-and-still-charges, let him rest in the grave and my eyes rest from reading his meth fueled rantings. Free as in freedom, but functionally useless software is meaningless, I would be happy to pay for a decent OS but atm the only good ones are free.
35 • all software is free (by LINUX rules on 2018-12-10 15:46:58 GMT from Croatia)
Free is not something that is approved by Stallman's fanatics. If i were to listen to those nerds, even linux kernel would not be totally free because it is GPL 2 and not GPL 3.
Who are those people to tell me what is free.
36 • genode, sculpt (by dogma on 2018-12-10 15:48:47 GMT from United States)
That's pleasing to see sculpt added to distributions watched. I’m thinking of giving it another try in the new year to see how things have matured…
37 • non-free packages (by Friar Tux on 2018-12-10 15:59:10 GMT from Canada)
My vote goes with R Cain (comment # 7). My main concern is does the OS work, period. I really don't give an 'ats rass if it had systemd, and/or free/non-free stuff, or whatever. Does the OS work as developed. Can I get my work done without glitches and issues. I presently use Linux Mint (for three years, now) and it hasn't had even the tiniest blip in all that time. It uses systemd and non-free drivers and codecs. As R Cain stated, it pretty much a mute point now-a-days.
38 • non free poll, rolling distros (by cykodrone on 2018-12-10 16:01:29 GMT from Canada)
Aside from a couple of firmware blobs, meh, nadda, I don't do giant corporation supported bloated spyware anymore, we and they know who they are.
Question for DW, what is the most RELIABLE rolling release distro? Preferably non systemd, or at least one of each. I have done cutting edge rolling in the past, was not much different than my old Windows days, constant trouble shooting and maintenance.
39 • ironic (by tim on 2018-12-10 17:13:59 GMT from United States)
The debian package "vrms" intended to help folks find/remove non-free software...
...it is listed among the undesirable software titles by the FSF
[quote]
Problem: Incomplete, misleading, and not necessary for distributions that abide by the GFSD
[/quote]
libreplanet. org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines#vrms
40 • vrms & Free As in Speech Software (by M.Z. on 2018-12-10 19:08:27 GMT from United States)
I have about 7 packages listed on my system by vrms as 'non-free', which is about 0.3-0.4% of the software packages on the systems I checked.
I've generally considered non-virtual RMS to be something of an impractical idealist, though I've been glad he created the GPL & did so much to help create & foster 'free as in speech' software, and I'm glad he is still around to do so.
Now looking at it it's surprising just how close his impractical vision of a totally free/open OS is to being 100% practical on my system. I'd guess there were a few other small bits on my Distro he didn't like, such as the Widevine DRM that makes Netflix & such go; however, it's still a fleetingly small portion of my system. I'm not giving up streaming or going with a totally 'libre' distro, but it gratifying to see how free my OS really is.
I'd like to give a big thank you to all of the impractical idealists who moved things forward & made the world a better place, even when only half of their vision came to fruition, let alone 99.5%.
41 • Tumbleweed (by David on 2018-12-10 23:26:35 GMT from Sweden)
I've tried Tumbleweed for both server and desktop, also played around with the transactional server which is pretty great in theory. But the amount of updates and distro upgrades is just overwhelming and even though snapper makes it super easy to roll back to previous state it creates nervousness. It's not for me, but I understand how people can like it as you always get the new stuff before everyone else and can play around and test it. It's also very good for developers wanting to try how their stuff works on the latest versions of different server software.
I instead recommend OpenSUSE Leap for almost everyone from absolute beginners to experts. It's stable and there's tons of software in different versions to find here if the default version is too stable/old for your taste:
https://software.opensuse.org/find
Also, in my opinion, the best place to get media codecs is here:
https://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-suse.html
It just works!
42 • vrms (by MX-16 user on 2018-12-11 00:47:44 GMT from Brazil)
$ vrms
Non-free packages installed on localhost
amd64-microcode Processor microcode firmware for AMD CPUs
atmel-firmware Firmware for Atmel at76c50x wireless networking chips.
bluez-firmware Firmware for Bluetooth devices
broadcom-sta-dkms dkms source for the Broadcom STA Wireless driver
firmware-amd-graphics Binary firmware for AMD/ATI graphics chips
firmware-atheros Binary firmware for Atheros wireless cards
firmware-bnx2 Binary firmware for Broadcom NetXtremeII
firmware-bnx2x Binary firmware for Broadcom NetXtreme II 10Gb
firmware-brcm80211 Binary firmware for Broadcom 802.11 wireless cards
firmware-intelwimax Binary firmware for Intel WiMAX Connection
firmware-ipw2x00 Binary firmware for Intel Pro Wireless 2100, 2200 and
firmware-iwlwifi Binary firmware for Intel Wireless cards
firmware-libertas Binary firmware for Marvell Libertas 8xxx wireless car
firmware-linux-nonfree Binary firmware for drivers in the Linux kernel (meta-
firmware-misc-nonfree Binary firmware for various drivers in the Linux kerne
firmware-myricom Binary firmware for Myri-10G Ethernet adapters
firmware-qlogic Binary firmware for QLogic HBAs
firmware-realtek Binary firmware for Realtek wired/wifi/BT adapters
firmware-zd1211 binary firmware for the zd1211rw wireless driver
intel-microcode Processor microcode firmware for Intel CPUs
nvidia-detect NVIDIA GPU detection utility
unrar Unarchiver for .rar files (non-free version)
zd1211-firmware transitional dummy package for firmware-zd1211
Contrib packages installed on localhost
b43-fwcutter utility for extracting Broadcom 43xx firmware
browser-plugin-freshplayer-pepperfl PPAPI-host NPAPI-plugin adapter for pepperflash
bunsen-pepperflash Pepper Flash Player - browser plugin
firmware-b43-installer firmware installer for the b43 driver
firmware-b43legacy-installer firmware installer for the b43legacy driver
iucode-tool Intel processor microcode tool
ttf-mscorefonts-installer Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts
virtualbox-guest-dkms x86 virtualization solution - guest addition module so
virtualbox-guest-utils x86 virtualization solution - non-X11 guest utilities
virtualbox-guest-x11 x86 virtualization solution - X11 guest utilities
23 non-free packages, 1.3% of 1767 installed packages.
10 contrib packages, 0.6% of 1767 installed packages.
43 • rolling distro (by Gary W on 2018-12-11 00:54:36 GMT from Australia)
@38 try antiX with the (Debian) testing repo, I think you'll be impressed!
44 • @12, Tumbleweed, Gecko (by Angel on 2018-12-11 02:39:11 GMT from Philippines)
I thought the same about Gecko, and just for kicks installed the latest live Tumbleweed Plasma iso, which dates from last June 8th. 1.1GB download, quick install followed by 1.05GB from zypper dup. Only one conflict: A Broadcom WiFi driver could not update due to the absence of kernel 4.19.5. (Latest is 4.19.7, updated from 4.16.xx) I didn't need that particular module, so took the option to uninstall it. Now have an up-to-date system with codecs, VLC, etc., running fine. Seems an easier way to install whether for Tumbleweed or Leap.
I ran Tumbleweed Gnome on a laptop for a while, using Gecko to install. The frequent update/upgrades didn't pose a problem then. Might be different with slower or metered internet.
45 • raspbian stretch raspberry pi 3 (by max91 on 2018-12-11 08:46:08 GMT from Slovakia)
Linux raspberrypi 4.14.79-v7+ #1159 SMP Sun Nov 4 17:50:20 GMT 2018 armv7l GNU/Linux
pi@raspberrypi:~ $ dpkg-query -W -f='${Section}\t${Package}\n' | grep ^non-free
non-free/kernel bluez-firmware
non-free/kernel firmware-atheros
non-free/kernel firmware-brcm80211
non-free/kernel firmware-libertas
non-free/kernel firmware-misc-nonfree
non-free/kernel firmware-realtek
non-free/devel oracle-java8-jdk
46 • OpenSUSE Command Line (by Winchester on 2018-12-11 13:29:54 GMT from United States)
I have found the command line in OpenSUSE to be more straight forward than many of the graphical options.
To install an OpenSUSE .rpm file :
sudo rpm -ivh /run/media/USB_Flash_Drive/kernel-default-4.19.4-1.1.x86_64.rpm
To update the system etc. :
sudo zypper refresh
sudo zypper update
sudo zypper install "package name"
sudo zypper dist-upgrade
To remove an old (not in use) kernel :
zypper rm kernel-default-4.17.3-1
To remove old snapshots :
sudo snapper delete 49-314
47 • How many non-free packages are on your system? (by Delvenaar on 2018-12-11 15:11:48 GMT from Pakistan)
41 mostly unused drivers...
48 • @4 Why does Btrfs "suck"? (by curious on 2018-12-12 12:32:57 GMT from Germany)
Please explain and provide evidence. Otherwise this is just name-calling and FUD.
On another point it seems rather strange that OpenSUSE is the only major distro that is incapable of providing users with a working easy way of getting multimedia support. That is failure as a desktop OS. As a user I do NOT need to learn all the single packages I might need for multimedia support - all other major players are able to provide them without hassle (and without legal problems in the US).
49 • Post # 48 (by Winchester on 2018-12-12 14:23:10 GMT from United States)
That's what Gecko Linux is for. Basically OpenSUSE (either Leap or Tumbleweed) with multimedia set-up "out of the box" , better fonts, but with the (troublesome) PackMan Repository enabled.
So,I initially installed Gecko Linux Tumbleweed LXQt,then disabled the "PackMan" repository,then transitioned to the official Tumbleweed release following the official documentation on how to do so.
Multimedia and fonts retained. Problem solved in less than one hour after installation.
Or,alternatively,you could find the OpenSUSE .rpm packages needed.
50 • antiX Testing (by gplcoder on 2018-12-12 14:27:29 GMT from United States)
@43 - I already tried it on two separate computers, one i386 install and one x64 install. Both turned into disasters. Repository files changing from testing to stable so the installation turned into a hybrid, systemD getting installed and the GUI disappearing. In all cases the forum's response was re-install which is unacceptable. I gave up on the i386 system but giving up on the x64 system is much more difficult because I trusted this pseudo rolling release and installed a commercial server product on it. Right now, it's a complete mess. No GUI and systemD partially running. I moved the i386 system to MX Linux but not using the testing repro.
51 • Of free stuff and non-free stuff... (by Tom Joad on 2018-12-12 17:50:52 GMT from United States)
I did the poll. And I voted 1 to 5. Worse I thought the poll wanted to know how many apps have I paid for. That answer is one...parted magic.
So next I ran VMRS and Viola! I have a 9 non-free apps on just my tower at home. Yeow! I had no idea...NONE!
And the list...
adobe-flashplugin Adobe Flash Player plugin
amd64-microcode Processor microcode firmware for AMD CPUs
crafty state-of-the-art chess engine, compatible with xboard
fonts-ubuntu sans-serif font set from Ubuntu
intel-microcode Processor microcode firmware for Intel CPUs
opera-stable Fast, secure, easy-to-use web browser
ttf-ubuntu-font-family sans-serif font set from Ubuntu (transitional package)
unrar Unarchiver for .rar files (non-free version)
Reason: Modifications problematic
Contrib packages installed on my-tower
iucode-tool Intel processor microcode tool
Parted Magic doesn't even appear.
Yup, one really does learn something new every single day!
52 • Freedom isn't Free, it's Freed (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2018-12-13 03:06:48 GMT from United States)
While I appreciate freedom, extremism rarely helps. Neither viral-freed nor proprietary licensing extremes bring a robust market. Perhaps someday better business models and better laws will.
I suggest it would be nice if DebIan and other user-respecting distros provided better tools for keeping restrictive-licensed software under finer control. Some conveniences are simply presented too irresponsibly, and as such too costly.
[Rant]
How much of the gargantuan size of modern operating systems is due to hardware vendors refusing standards, and insisting on obfuscation for "proprietary" reasons?
How much of the decrease in speed and increase in resource-hunger is due to contributions from vendors who want to sell more hardware?
[/Rant]
Considering the systemd automated process management paradigm, I suggest it began as a good idea sold to management, who then aggressively pushed it in heaps of buggy code hoping the community would make it, you know, actually work. For server farms (and bot armadas), it's a shiny vision. For users, maybe not so much, but could potentially provide benefits for all. When done right.
@51 • PartEd Magic is not an app, it's a distro. Many apps, curated to purpose.
53 • antiX Testing (by Gary W on 2018-12-13 05:35:45 GMT from Australia)
@50 that is highly unfortunate. Needless to say, I haven't had anything like your experiences. Particularly grim is half a systemd; I daresay worse than a full systemd.
Perhaps I have avoided these hassles by doing a few sacrificial installs on a spare machine. I doubt that changing from testing to stable repos is supported; there are undoubtably situations where it's quicker, easier, and more satisfying to reinstall.
Perhaps you can transition to pure Debian by removing the antiX repos; but perhaps that will cause a fatal mess. I don't envy you :-(
54 • free vs proprietary and systemd (by edcoolio on 2018-12-13 05:54:48 GMT from United States)
I DO NOT CARE.
I install what I require in order to go about my daily tasks with minimal hassle and disruption.
Distros that push the Kool-Aid too far? Let me be crystal clear:
If it takes longer to configure non-free software to make a useful device than it took to initially install the system, then I will not use the distro. Period.
As to systemd. Seriously? People are still fighting over this?? Both the battle and war are over. It is the same mindset which will only use free software packages (cool) but must chastise others that do not (not cool). The situation reminds one of innocent conversations with militant vegans, it's like you stepped on a landmine of carrots and chickens.
Anyways, if it is that important to you, just use another init system like many intelligent people here have noted and give us a good review. It is always appreciated, in particular if GPU and CPU use is noted.
Personally, I have no issue with systemd and find it both modern and useful. I do not select a distro based on its init system, and probably never will.
55 • openSUSE Tumbleweed (by sen on 2018-12-13 10:35:37 GMT from Poland)
Well, I use TW for almost a year on several machines, real and virtual. Those frequent updates are not a pain for me, I just like to have rolling distro. One thing I discovered in the past was that my forgotten VM with Tumbleweed was able to update after 5 months of being unused and everything went smoothly. Never had any problems leading me to use snapshots. TW is a bit demanding, but might be rewarding for more advanced users.
Only one disadvantage is that I have to install some software by hand, because it's not in the official repository nor in Packman.
Arch is tempting as well, but that snapper keeps me with TW.
56 • systemd and non-free (by Andy Figueroa on 2018-12-14 04:19:04 GMT from United States)
I echo the concerns of those who see systemd as a Linux cancer. I remotely support some systems that use systemd, and it results in many work arounds to accomplish what used to be straight forward and easy.
I try to live FOSS because I believe in the ideals, but also can't do without Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome and VirtualBox, and I like Vivaldi.
57 • Open Source & Init (by M.Z. on 2018-12-15 08:33:18 GMT from United States)
On the free/open source package front, I still see it as a huge net positive that most Linux users seem to be running 95%+ free & open packages (at least as a best guess based on the poll). It says something about the strength of the open source community that many users can very comfortably run 99% or more free/open packages & end up with a very useable system that still does just about everything they need, at least if they are anything like me.
On the other hand, the thoughtlessness of some on the topic, (i.e. 'who cares' comments), is a little disappointing. There are genuine benefits to everyone if the code that runs the drivers on your system are free & open. I'd say not necessarily being stuck with dropped support from your hardware vendor is the biggest one, & that's because it's not an issue if your hardware is popular enough for the community to continue development of an open driver after the manufacturer ends support, goes bankrupt etc.
No, you don't have to run a 100% free/open Distro, I know I sure don't. That doesn't mean that it not worth considering the benefits of the other 90-99.9% of the system being open source.
@56
I echo the concerns of those who see the systemd 'debate' & endless pot-shots as a cancer on the Linux community. Both systemd & other open source init systems exist & can be used or removed as wanted by Distro devs & if you care about init there is choice. Why complain that options you don't like also exist, when there are alternatives?
58 • Re: systemd, non tinfoil hat (by cykodrone on 2018-12-15 13:51:39 GMT from Canada)
Forget that systemd is bloated, buggy, secretive, and controls way too much of your system for an init (when they gave it phone home networking, that was the last straw for me). Like others, my issue is it was forced on us like a bad politician through troll bullying on social media. Show me ONE distro that has systemd as default that you can easily uninstall it and replace it with something else, you can't, it completely destroys the install, and most of the third party apps that you have installed. Even if you manage to replace systemd in an old favorite distro, you are left with a bunch of broken apps. This is bullying through software. 3rd party apps should have two dependencies, the kernel, and the GUI they run on, at what point did an init become an integral part of how an app functions? If fail to see any of these reasonable points, sorry, you are just another cultist developer that got lazy because systemd handles everything else for you. I would say the same about any other piece of software that has become a dependency 'cancer'.
59 • Re: 'systemd'. (by R. Cain on 2018-12-15 17:49:02 GMT from United States)
@56; 57; 58:
After years of faultless service, I'm getting ready to switch to MX-Linux, from Mint. Mint's record was perfect through v17.3 (sysvinit) and then all Mint's bugs, some still not corrected, started appearing with v18 (systemd), and the problems continue. Mint lost its YEARS-long DistroWatch 1st place ranking after adopting systemd, along with all the problems it causes.
",,, if you care about init there is choice..."
Can systemd be easily removed in Mint 19, and replaced by sysvinit? I can't get an answer.
",,,Why complain...when there are alternatives?"
Fortunately full-function MX-Linux exists, is lightweight (1200MB vs Mint 1800 MB), gives the best battery life of any distro, is extremely fast, and has been declared the best Xfce distribution of 2018,
http://www.ocsmag.com/ ,
and is now #2 in DistroWatch's 7-day rolling average ranking. The MX organization has recently announced the Beta release of MX-18.
I used to follow and contribute to blogs and forums. Whenever I'd point out that Mint was dropping in the 7 day average, without fail someone would counter that Distrowatch's 7 day rankings *were useless*, that only the 12-month or 6-month average means anything. These people are 'hiding behind statistics'.
You probably already know this: DistroWatch's 7-day rolling average means *everything* when it comes to giving you REAL-TIME information. It's the six-month average that doesn't mean all that much, because, when generating a rolling average, real-time fluctuations are masked out--hidden-- by *all* the older data; a year or more ago, if I remember correctly, one could tell from DistroWatch's 7-day rankings that Mint was in trouble.
One can always go to the "DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking" page for 1-, 3-, 6-, and 12-month rankings for over 300 distributions. One can also use DW's home page to get results for past years--2016, 2015...for example.
There is an absolute wealth of information here on DistroWatch. One has only to (a) use common sense to get the most out of this valuable resource, and (b) be on guard against those who would mis-use it.
Fact: DistroWatch is the most accessible, easiest to use source of data on Linux and BSD usage information; 'vetting' of this information, if desired, can be done--somewhat painfully--with no real increase in accuracy.
60 • init & DW Ranking (by M.Z. on 2018-12-16 02:43:02 GMT from United States)
@59
"Mint lost its YEARS-long DistroWatch 1st place ranking after adopting systemd..."
How exactly did you come to this highly dubious conclusion? Do you even know what the init system in the #1 distro is? DW seems to indicate it's the same as Mint, so systemd for both Manjaro & Mint in #1 & #2 on DW rankings.
Could it be that you are jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived notions rather than considering the evidence?
Given the nature of both Manjaro & Mint in the Linux world, it looks to me as though Manjaro is extremely popular to look at on DW because it provides a very cutting edge yet easy to install distro. That sort of distro would seem likely a high interest point for certain types of computer enthusiasts who want cutting edge & easy to use & are interested in Linux. I'm not sure where Manjardo would stand in user installs & long term use compared to Mint & Ubuntu, but clearly it is more interesting to those looking at DW info pages & I can see why.
I'd call that a far more reasonable hypothesis based on the available evidence, & of course the fact that it uses the same init system as Mint.
"Can systemd be easily removed... ...and replaced by sysvinit? I can't get an answer."
I'm not really sure how that is relevant, especially give the fact that you seem to have made a choice to us a different distro. The choice was available & you made yours in favor of MX. Fine by me.
@58
"Show me ONE distro that has systemd as default that you can easily uninstall it and replace it with something else..."
See the comment immediately above your quote. You have a choice of distros, & some will share your priorities, while others won't. It doesn't matter if those priorities include 100% Libre software, or a specific init system, either way your better off making a decision at the start & picking based on that. There are probably some distros that won't include vrms & even those that do may cause lots of headaches if you remove all closed drivers rather than installing a libre distro to begin with. It seems systemd is the same, which is to say it's better to make a choice before selecting a distro be it free from systemd, or free from closed packages.
Why not say the things that are better about your sytemd free distro, rather than attacking other distros & init systems? Do you really notice a difference over the course of a few days or weeks when you chose a distro with a different init? I generally don't. If you do see better things about your init that are noticeable, tell us about them & you'll create a better vibe than you would by throwing out FUD-ish terms like 'cancer'.
61 • Re: 'systemd'. (by R. Cain on 2018-12-16 05:18:08 GMT from United States)
@ 60--
"...so systemd for both Manjaro & Mint in #1 & #2 on DW rankings..."[?]
Obviously, you're one of those for whom statistics are to be used only for manipulation in order to prove what one already believes. I realize it's a bother, but if f you *were* to check today's Distrowatch 7-day ranking, you'd find the ranking to be Manjaro, MX-Linux, and Mint, respectively, with MX rising--and leading Mint by almost 500 points--and Manjaro and Mint falling. You really need to use the 7-day rankings *if* you are serious about having discussions like this...
***********************
"Far more important than what a man believes or does not believe is what he does not *want* to believe."--Eric Hoffer.
***********************
"...How exactly did you come to this highly dubious conclusion?..."
It's only "dubious" to people who do not make the effort to follow the on-going developments in Linux distributions.
"...I'm not really sure how that is relevant..."
Entirely understandable. Completely; absolutely.
"...it looks to me..."
"...I'd call that..."; and...
"...Could it be that you are jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived notions rather than considering the evidence?"...
I could not have phrased it better.
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."--John F. Kennedy
"Some people consider facts to be true only if those facts agree with what they already believe."--Andy Rooney
62 • systemd and dependencies (by cykodrone on 2018-12-16 05:46:17 GMT from Canada)
@60 You attack my comment but totally missed the point, systemd has become a DEPENDENCY cancer, it's no longer just an invasive init. In answer to your obvious shilling, I have tested many distros and numerous scenarios, like being able to uninstall an unwanted piece of of a DE (just some random addon extra) from a non systemd distro, but trying it in a systemd distro, you get an arms length of 'must also remove'. This also happens with some very common 3rd party apps, many apps now either want to drag in systemd or want to drag out the actual DE itself just because the distro is systemd based, this is absolute insanity. Don't make me go through all the trouble of doing sample installs and screencapping proof, you will be sorely pwnd.
Number of Comments: 62
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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