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1 • Poll (by Rev_Don on 2018-10-15 00:27:23 GMT from United States)
Once again this weeks poll is incomplete making it misleading for many of us. I used to attend LUG meetings for several years when there was one local to me. I don't attend now as the nearest on is a 2 1/2 drive each way making it impractical. The one that was within a reasonable distance closed several years ago. If there was one local to me I would definitely attend, but there isn't so I can't.
2 • LUGs (by TheTKS on 2018-10-15 01:27:56 GMT from Canada)
Haven’t yet, thinking about it. I think there’s one in the next town over. I have learned a lot on DW, on fora, through searches... yet sometimes it would be nice to be able to talk ideas over with someone, or to get help with something. And since I’ve gotten so much help from others, I would like to start giving back - still a noob, but have gotten to a point where, every once in awhile, a noobier noob than I am asks about something that I can help with, even if it’s just to send them somewhere that they can find an answer.
TKS
3 • LUG (by DaveW on 2018-10-15 01:57:48 GMT from United States)
I attended one LUG meeting several years ago. One reason I have never been back is that the meeting location changed, and is no longer convenient. Another reason is that the internet has been able to answer all questions I have had recently.
4 • Of LUG's and learning Linux... (by tom joad on 2018-10-15 02:53:14 GMT from United States)
I never, ever been to a LUG meeting. I don't know where they are held locally, if there is one close by or do I have any interest in starting one. I think, personally, that most folks learn better faster on our own. I do.
The analogy I would use is if I get the car stuck I do what I have to do to get the car unstuck. I don't really need or want a 'committee' to shoot the breeze about what I should do or shouldn't do.
Joining anything is just not me.
However, if beer, brats and some football are included in the meetings...well, sign me up!!!
5 • LUGs (by Brenton Horne on 2018-10-15 03:08:32 GMT from Australia)
I haven't attended a LUG meeting, although I am a member of the local LUG (http://tlug.dnho.net/), because there are no meetings in my city any more. There's simply too few LUG members to justify regular meetings.
6 • LUGs (by Bruce "the Podcaster" Patterson on 2018-10-15 03:08:57 GMT from United States)
LUG's can be great if you are in one. There are some online, I would even hit up the folks at the podnutz podcast. Door to Door Geek may have some suggestions. If you're in the Boston area you can check out BLU (Boston Linux Unix) blu.org Monster B has many listings worth checking out. Of course starting one could work too. As was mentioned in an earlier post, it can also be about talking about things linux/unix/etc.
As for Monster B - https://monsterb.github.io/ Lots of useful linux links to communities.
7 • LUGs (by Gary on 2018-10-15 04:40:33 GMT from United States)
Taught myself through trial and error how to build a computer. Then installing operating systems. Had been installing multi distros on external hard drives since 2005? It would have been nice if there had been a LUG around. Most questions I may have had then were mostly solved by forums and books (Real books) from a real library!
8 • BSDs (by SuperOscar on 2018-10-15 06:54:37 GMT from Finland)
One thing not often mentioned re BSDs is the lack of (or difficulties getting decent) Unicode support. As soon as you’ve installed BSD, you once again vividly recall all the character coding troubles you had in the 1980s and 1990s. Filenames with funny and unexpected characters; file contents that can hardly be read; and so on. I wonder how hard it’d be for them to fully convert to Unicode as the Linuxes have done ages ago?
9 • LUGs (by Alain on 2018-10-15 07:40:02 GMT from Belgium)
I have my own LUG meeting once a month. As in Belgium, English is not spoken so well by older people, many need a LUG to have their questions answered. Google Translate does not always do a good job translating.
10 • LUGs (by Ikkam on 2018-10-15 08:00:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think LUGs are the dying type nowadays.
11 • LUGs (by John P on 2018-10-15 08:22:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
When I was working, I never had the chance to attend my local LUG, and now I'm retired and could go, my LUG has joined with another one and has it's meeting there which is three hours away. Had it still been local, I would definitely have been to at least one, and would probably have become a regular participant - it's always good to meet like-minded people, and to exchange tips, tricks and ideas.
12 • Linux user Group (by John on 2018-10-15 09:04:47 GMT from United States)
One would expect a publication such as this to give a list of such groups or at least a link to such a list. Example - got a grub problem where do I go for help.
13 • BSD flavours (by Someguy on 2018-10-15 10:01:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Dipped into many BSDs over the years, but usually pulled up short by their arcane commands, structure, etc. Thinking the new v1.0 of MidnightBSD might meet Jesse's DT usage, ran it up in liveCD mode. OK, well the login could be guessed, {looked it up on the InterWeb using a rational machine} but there's no point for live running not to list it at boot up! Typed 'startx' at the prompt - nada. Again using a decent Linux machine, checked their website to discover, DT doesn't run on the liveCD mode. What's the point?! Came to the same conclusion about BSD as a decade ago - run by a bunch of geeks for their own gratification. It was like this initially with Linux, though. Academics are entitled to talk amongst themselves for the greater wisdom of the world, but they need to try harder - a lot harder - to break out into the real world that ordinary folks, even extraordinary folks with higher degrees in e.g. philosophy perhaps, inhabit. Now that really does require higher intellect!
Oh! I didn't mention the login? root ....
14 • Shoulda done it! (by PatH on 2018-10-15 10:03:27 GMT from United States)
Back around the turn of the century there was a LUG in my area posted in the newspaper and I was always thinking about attending while I was experimenting with RedHat, SUSE and Mandrake but I never got around to it because I was so consumed with Windows and DOS problems. :)
15 • The beauty of it (by Pierre on 2018-10-15 10:18:21 GMT from France)
"...but I never got around to it because I was so consumed with Windows and DOS problems."
The beauty of it is that, when one couldn't or wouldn't find time to go to a LUG or do something with Linux related stuff, one would always blame Windows!
16 • LUGs (by Fox on 2018-10-15 10:47:34 GMT from Canada)
We have a LUG in our small city (Peterborough, Ontario, Canada), and while I wouldn't say it's thriving right now, it is hanging on. Formal meetings are monthly and one or two presentations are made at these meetings; typical attendance is 8-10. We had also been having weekly get-togethers at a coffee shop (Tim Horton's for those that know it), but that has been less regular recently. We also have a website that attracts lots of views outside of our LUG.
I joined the LUG just to get together with like-minded Linux users. While I do ask for and give advice to other members, I participate more to hear about Linux and open-source-related topics that I wouldn't necessarily look into on my own.
17 • Lugs (by Marc on 2018-10-15 11:30:20 GMT from Australia)
I have always wanted to attend a LUG meeting but never been able to
work until recently has been rotating shifts meaning i never knew what shift i was working, but now I will be looking for any unix groups
18 • BSDs (by PunkRockDocs on 2018-10-15 11:42:10 GMT from United States)
I've tried to install various flavors of BSDs in the past decade. Although I don't count myself as technically proficient, I've been using Linux at home as my primary system for 14 years. And yet, with probably half of these installation attempts on half a dozen computers I get the same obnoxious loud beep. Midnight BSD 1.0 had the same beep on my system and it stopped only when I powered the machine off. None of the installations have been useful. The best I ever got was a command line with no internet.
I know there are many talented and skilled BSD developers but I just don't see a reason to bother trying to install any longer.
19 • BSDs (by qweo on 2018-10-15 12:10:03 GMT from Russian Federation)
WRT Unicode support, things had markedly improved lately. FreeBSD had UTF-8 console support for some time now, you can have it in NetBSD since version 6 via mlterm, and OpenBSD finally fixed that annoying XTerm default that got in the way, and, I, think, they fixed ksh too, though, strangely for an OS that picked en_US.UTF-8 as the one true locale, OpenBSD's vi is still a loss with multibyte characters :-( nvi from OpenBSD's ports, which is mostly the same, handles Unicode just fine though.
No idea about Dragonfly (one reason to look at it again - project's goals and the way they meet them are outstanding, and the speed with which they rolled Meltdown fixes is telling... A shame it's not portable at all, in contrast to other BSDs!
For those looking for something exotic to play with, there's RetroBSD, a modern 2.11(!)BSD descendant targetting microcontrollers. It's not your general-purpose OS I suppose, but rather a demonstration of viability of old codebases for new tech, and an exciting one by me!
20 • our local LUG (by MikeOh Shark on 2018-10-15 12:31:54 GMT from Romania)
I used to go to LUG meetings when they were at our local library and on the way home from work. They moved to another library at day of the week and are less convenient for me but more convenient for the commuter crowd.
I liked our LUG. The moderator seemed to know everything and was incredibly helpful. Sometimes we had almost two dozen atendees and other times only the moderator and myself. He used a projector and demonstrated software, had multiple versions set up in Virtual Box, and frequently arranged to have guests. We even had some well known guests that people here would recognize and this in our small town. They managed to get some publishers to have book giveaways as door prizes. One lady who taught herself to be an expert brought cookies. It was the friendliest group of people and quite diverse.
I think I will go to the next meeting even though it has been a few years. Their website shows the same moderator attends.
21 • Reborn OS (by Joe85365 on 2018-10-15 13:06:26 GMT from United States)
I downloaded the newest Reborn OS ISO (Reborn-OS-2018.10.01-x86_64) and installed in VirtualBox. Quote "The installer lets us know it requires a network connection to download the latest available packages." If you don't have a high speed network connection, be prepared to wait. I got no error messages, but it took all night to install. 8+ hours. My first time looking at flatpack...don't expect to ever use it. Since I use Xfce and don't need anything new or exciting, this is probably not the distro for me. But it does seem stable and quick once it is installed.
22 • @12 Re: List of LUG's (by Rev_Don on 2018-10-15 13:51:44 GMT from United States)
Google, Duck Duck Go, or your favorite search engine is your friend. http://lugslist.com/
I do agree that it does seem odd that DistroWatch doesn't have an easy to find link to a LUG List.
23 • @22 luglist (by Ikkam on 2018-10-15 15:07:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Most of them are dead, even in the UK. Some in the US are still meeting, which is good. But, I believe this is a dying category.
24 • LUGs (by Don Knowles on 2018-10-15 15:12:16 GMT from Australia)
I'm in a LUG in Central Queensland (Australia) that 3 of us started, which is the only LUG between Brisbane and Townsville, a distance of over 1300 km (800 miles) by road. As one of the organisers, I've had queries from people in towns 300 km away.
If you are in Australia, there is always Linux Australia (linux.org.au) which has both lists of LUGs, and mailing lists for questions.
25 • @ 24 (by Pierre on 2018-10-15 15:44:07 GMT from France)
I know of 2 Linux distros made in Australia, Puppy Linux and now defunct OZ Unity. Are there any other distros made in Australia?
26 • User Groups (by Garon on 2018-10-15 15:57:59 GMT from United States)
In the eighty's I was a member of a computer users group. At that time we had all kinds of different operating systems running on different type computers. We had Ms-dos machines, Tandy CoCos, Apple IIs, Commdores, home brewed systems, and many different types of peripherals. also we had a lot of good people. Those times were really exciting and everything was new. Really I had more fun back then, but in a way Linux renewed my interest and showed me I could enjoy myself again.
27 • LUGS (by zephyr on 2018-10-15 15:58:17 GMT from United States)
Highly recommend anyone seeking the more serious side of Linux as a user or developer to locate and join a LUG (Linux Users Group).
Although time is plentiful, and opportunity abound have yet to attend a meeting myself, that will soon change. Joined OKC Lugnuts a while back, about 500 members and seem to meet at random places in and around OU, Norman OK.
Really a great way of meeting other Linux users in a personal and professional environment and yet in a friendly atmosphere. The meetings vary in topic and often designed for particular users or interest. Sometimes it is just a social invite involving introduction with food and drink!
Appreciate DW bringing this topic forward, with excellent respondence!
28 • Death of LUGs (by Chuck Adams on 2018-10-15 16:02:54 GMT from United States)
I agree, the survey question lacks some important details. The local Phoenix LUG
died due to loss of meeting place. LUGs are most likely having problems finding
resources for places to meet on a regular basis, lack of instructors and individuals
willing to devote time for teaching the newbies. Distrowatch could help by adding
a section for LUG information, those wanting to start or find a local group and existing group info.
Survival of a group meeting depends upon having a meeting monthly or bi-weekly
without any changes to time and meeting place. You make one change and you
lose some people every time. Survival usually depends upon one person devoting
a part of their busy life to the life of the group. IMHO. I see a group that has
two 30 min sessions, one beginner and one advanced, and then a period of help
for installations and problem solving for question and answers for attendees for survival.
Location near a restaurant for meet and greet afterwards helps. Do typical linux
admins and users socialize well in any format?
29 • Oz distros (by zephyr on 2018-10-15 16:18:33 GMT from United States)
@ 25 Pierre: Yes, STAR! Ozitraveller from the Melbourne Australia area.
Can be found here...https://sourceforge.net/projects/linnix/?source=directory
and here https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=star
cheers
zephyr
30 • Phoenix AZ LUG (by Chuck Adams on 2018-10-15 16:19:32 GMT from United States)
My bad. There is a group in East Phoenix, but I live in the far NW area and a long distance
through traffic for me. There used to be a West Phoenix group years ago.
31 • LUGs (by Jesse on 2018-10-15 17:07:12 GMT from Canada)
@12, @22: I don't think the idea of linking to LUGs has come up before, it's a bit outside our scope. But it does make sense to make LUG indexes easier to locate.. I'm adding links to LUGs on our FAQ page, Glossary and Related Resources menu.
32 • BSDs (by pin on 2018-10-15 17:38:01 GMT from Sweden)
I'm running NetBSD 8.0 with awesome wm and everything works. No issues with fonts, never had problems with booting, internet works through wired connection, but that's just because I have a wifi card that's not supported. Although, this card doesn't work with Ubuntu either. I love the simplicity of this system. Ok, it's not "plug and play" but it's not rocket science either.
33 • BozemanLUG (by Scott Dowdle on 2018-10-15 17:49:18 GMT from United States)
Just wanted to mention that the BozemanLUG (Bozeman, Montana) continues to meet once a month and has done so since sometime in 1998. I started attending meetings regularly in 2005. Yes, we only have a small handful of regulars who show up... but we enjoy getting together. Sometimes we have formalized topics / presentations but other times we do not... and just chew the fat on what's new in the Linux community as well as our own.
I was also affiliated with the BillingsLUG (Billings, Montana) and attended my first meeting in 1998. The group existed for many years but has not had any regular meetings for a few years now. During the history of the BillingsLUG (formerly called the Yellowstone Valley LUG), we had a number of "InstallFests" which the question declares as the primary purpose of a LUG. Not so.
There are still a number of LUGs around the country.
34 • Links to LUGs (by R.Cain on 2018-10-15 17:53:36 GMT from United States)
@31:
"... I'm adding links to LUGs on our FAQ page..."
Not to put TOO fine a point on this, but you are MUCH too late on this one. I was surprised that you even proposed this topic as a matter for discussion; it is absolutely not timely.
I' m very certain that it did NOT escape your attention, in the comments here, that LUGs are DYING, not prospering and thriving--nor even stagnant, for that matter.
Save your energies--and print space--for a more relevant and revealing topic--such as "Why are the two, previously unchallenged DistroWatch #1 distros, Mint and Ubuntu--NOW #4 and #6, respectively, in the 7-day rankings?"
You may be surprised to find that the answer as to the 'why' of the death of LUGs lies in the answer to this last question.
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” ― Winston S. Churchill
35 • locating Linux User Groups & Meeting places (by Bobbie Sellers on 2018-10-15 17:57:47 GMT from United States)
This does not need a list on the Distrowatch site.
Just type into the search window, your area and Linux User Group.
most have web pages.
SF-LUG meets at coffee shops with WiFi internet connections.
Usually these shops are out of the downtown area.
BayLUG meets at a Chinese restaurant near the finacial district
in downtown SF.
Some LUGs may meet in Maker Spaces. In the old days
in the Amiga Users Group we met in public libraries with
rooms to spare, the UC hospital, a uneeded school room,
But such places are harder to find these days.
But the coffee shop is glad of even my business twice
a month and the other users are a bonus.
bliss
sf-lug mailing list is at sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
<http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug>
Information about SF-LUG is at
36 • LUGs & BSD (by Steve L on 2018-10-15 18:17:42 GMT from United States)
Never been to a LUG meeting... nor any other user group since the CP/M days. I was a member of a CP/M Users Group in Washington DC back in the day, but that's the only one I ever participated in. Good times and a great group!
One other, very important, reason for using BSD is no systemd virus infecting your OS.
Plus, it's a very stable and solid OS with a good pedigree and a level of maturity that compares favorably against many of the Linux distro's. But then I may be a bit biased since I started out with exposure to BSD on mini computers and Solaris on workstations (hopped up desktops of the day) and SUN servers.
I was extremely glad to see BSD make it's way to modern desktop and server environments. SUN never really pulled that trick off, at least not very successfully from what I experienced.
37 • not a LUG but helpful (by Laura on 2018-10-15 20:10:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
There is not a formal LUG as such, but here in Tucson, AZ, USA there is an active Linux SIG associated with the Tucson Computer Society. The TCS has a web page (aztcs.org) which may be of help to anyone local who is looking for Linux help.
38 • BSD's (by ricky on 2018-10-15 21:12:28 GMT from Netherlands)
The BSD's are fantastic. I dabbled in them several years back before settling on Slackware.
I ended up choosing Slackware as my daily driver for several reasons relating to how BSD distro's function. Mostly because of the familiar rc.d style init system (this was important when systemd plagued the other Linux distros).
This is init done right, and Slackware is no exception when mentioning the BSD's (even though it is a Linux). When i hear BSD i immediately think of Slackware, which i'm sure others can agree on why that is.
I was most fond of FreeBSD around 2009-2011, which i ran during that period of the desktop for typical general use, including gaming. I was a big fan of SauerBraten: Cube2, and Red Eclipse at the time, which ironically outperformed any Linux distro in terms of frame per second in those games on FreeBSD (when using the nvidia blob drivers).
For me, the one thing that shifted me back to Linux, namely Slackware. Is because of Steam, i've always liked playing games and couldn't let Valve's push for Linux be ignored by myself. I hear that PlayOnBSD now supports Steam pretty well, and along with Steamplay, you can apparently get many AAA Windows titles now running on FreeBSD perfectly fine.
I may have to revisit FreeBSB... although i've fallen in love with Slackware even since then, that might be hard to do!
I think the comparison to Arch, when being "familiar" to BSD would have been the case in 2011. But with the advent of systemd... and Arch no longer using any kind of BSD style config or init... well, that's a dated comparison. In my opinion, Slackware, Gentoo and Crux, are the only Linux distros that can be compared to any of the BSD's these days.
39 • Nitrux, LUGs (by mikef90000 on 2018-10-15 23:03:23 GMT from United States)
I've enjoyed LUGs in the past but many people have touched on their decline - it's very hard to find convenient, functional meeting locations. Don't want to drive a long way in traffic. Most free sites don't have facilities like projectors or even a quiet room.
I like appimages, but Nitrix has managed to make them look bad. Store them in /bin, really - what are they smoking? After some thought and actual use, /opt works well for me.
- A fundamental problem is the lack of a defacto repository, meta-repository or equivalent; downloading appimages from random websites is so ............ Windows like :-(. OTOH Flatpak specific repos seem very slow, and Snaps have to be vetted by Canonical (?).
- Many packagers neglect to include automatic .desktop file creation so they appear in a menu (oops).
These package alternatives are still a work in progress ....
40 • BSD's (by Jessey Lawson on 2018-10-15 23:45:26 GMT from United States)
The first BSD I used was PC-BSD 9.1 on my new laptop. At first it did not work with 9.0. Then it turned to hell by 9.1. The issue is that it would only boot 1/3 of the time and even then it would take 3 days to install. No I am not kidding it took three full days! I had no internet and the screen was not at the right resolution and as a noob at linux I had no way to fix it. What is funny is Solaris 10 did work out of the box just with out wifi support. i would try PC-BSD 10 on it. The resualts were similar the only diffrence was that it took only and hour then to install and the screen was usable.
As for the others I tried MidnightBSD back when you had to use the terminal and install the gui manualy. I think that was back in .50. Mangaro did not have a GUI back then ether. I tested them both on my Vista computer. I like FreeBSD, but I hate all the dam compiling. Aftter doing that with OSX 10.10 I have had enough bullshit. That is why I like distros like GhostBSD/Trident. I was using DebianBSD 8 in a vm for a while but now that has been axed. I don't care though. I found out that Ubuntu and Debian have legacy repos. If there is one for DebianBSD 8 I will use that on this laptop once I get a new one.
FreeBSD is the only choice for my PowerPC Mac Mini G4. I hate that you have to compile a custom image do to the PS3 port that died. You can't run another os on the PS3 do to the hardware design so what was the point after sony removed the feature.
As for the closed source apps and gameing as long as you have a nvida card your good. Just build your self a Windows 7 gaming pc and stream the games accross the network using midnight-streaming. Takes care of the mess and you fell like it is native too. I hate that they are moving it to a chrome app. NOT EVERYONE LIKES CHROME.
41 • Oz Distros (by whatteaux on 2018-10-16 00:14:31 GMT from Australia)
@25 I believe Korora is also an Australian distro? Probably named after Korora Bay, a lovely spot just north of Coffs Harbour.
42 • @18 BSD - exactly like my own experience: No chance! (by Gerhard Goetzhaber on 2018-10-16 00:32:15 GMT from Austria)
At least on recent desktop hardware: Just because of BSDs been made a theme herein I tried installing two of them (the recent versions of MidnightBSD and FreeBSD) again yesterday and got the same disastrous results as so many times before. Both my workstations are powered by Ryzen CPUs on B350 chipsets. Not even one boot process came to finishing!
I think that for any fluent usage of a graphical desktop including the whole variety of commonly required i/o functions the huge advance of Linux before BSDs cannot be caught up any more. So I don't see any sense to try it again - as more as I'm perfectly happy with OpenSuSE Leap which has proven to easily get modified with recent kernels as well as with numerous most modern software due to all my needs. Linux is hundreds of miles in front. Sorry!
43 • Maybe Linux is not that popular now... (by Ikkam on 2018-10-16 07:21:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
That lack of interest in LUGs might also show that there might be lack of interest in Linux these days. Before anyone start shouting at me, I find most of the Linux related web sites are either dying or stagnant these days. This may also happened because of the success of Android and practically cheap Windows 10. (OEM is about $10, I hear.)
44 • @Jesse | Portable Apps (by frisbee on 2018-10-16 08:03:44 GMT from Switzerland)
If there would be an OS based on portable versions of packages only, it would be the ultimate fail.
The real advantage (== sense) of portable apps is to be able to get a version that's not in the repositories of your distributuion, to get a paralell instalation with older and newer app versions same time or not to screw your Gnome environement with 1GB of KDE dependencies (or other way round).
That also includes updating - portable app should NOT be automaticaly updated by no means, otherways I might just install the latest version. No auto-update is exactly the feature that allows me to use a 10+ years old version which worked better than the most recent one!
Basically, the main idea of installing the portable SW is NOT TO INTEGRATE (== mess up) with a system. Otherways, you should install a SW, not use a portable versions.
Adding the starter to start menu is different from one DE to the next. Some DE do it, some don't.
Example MINT LINUX: I created a folder named "bin" in my Home folder, downloaded AppImage (Etcher) and put it in "bin", made package executable, double clicked it and it poped up. A starter was added to the Start Menu automagically.
In your example with Nomad, you can add (== create) an entry for the global Start Menu, either over Menu Editor or manually writing "application_name.desktop" file an putting it under ~/.local/share/applications (for 1 user only) or, under /usr/share/applications (global).
Design of those portable versions will not fit in the rest of your DE design since it should be some kind of fail-safe, meaning, it brings it's own icon set.
Users of Windows know it since decades. Every portable app brings its own design, names and logic an does not integrate with a system at all - it doesn't show up in Start Menu, it doesn't show options on the right click in system (no "open with" for example), it doesn't autostart ... and that is perfectly well so.
45 • Reborn OS / Cnchi (by anti-cnchi on 2018-10-16 09:23:27 GMT from Philippines)
Cnchi has been a pain i the **** way of installing arch, it breaks so often.
i find if i do or some people insist using cnchi for whatever reason is to do the following before hand:
- update cnchi (if one is available)
- manually update both antergos-mirrorlist and mirrorlist (for arch repos)
- do not select to rank/sort mirrors when running the cnchi
- do no select so much stuff during install (i often times only select base or just the DE i need) as this
- pray that for some reasons, cnchi will not fetch from a slow mirror (which still happens despite ranking you mirrorlist by speed), or it will stop installing or will just waste your time by going though the install completely only to fail.
46 • BSD's (by alotov on 2018-10-16 09:28:21 GMT from United States)
I repeatedly installed Freebsd, until I got it right - or rightish! It does support UTF, but as far as linux filesystems go will only support ext2/ext3, although it does have a fusefs for accessing ext4. Being able to access drives that had been formatted in ext2/ext3 was a big isssue for myself. Turned out it was all about the correct permissions - Freebsd is finicky in this regard. Create a user on both linux and Freebsd with the same username is not enough for FreeBSD, the id number also needs to be the same - discovered this by accident and was not covered in any of the famous detailed bsd documentation. Its a good fallback system should the slackware developers lose their mind, as the ghome developers lost their collective minds.
47 • popularity of LUGs (by MikeOh Shark on 2018-10-16 11:39:30 GMT from France)
@43, I think other reasons are responsible for the decreased popularity of LUGs. Finding a good meeting place with a projector and publicising it are part.
Another reason is that there are many people who use a distro (such as Tails, Clonezilla, SystemRescue) for a specific purpose but go back to Windows for other uses. They are content to let developers do the hard work.
Even now, I know people who have strange things going on with UEFI that make it scary to use Linux. I can't be more specific because I have no experience with it yet. I am still using a 9 year old computer and it works well and fast in Linux. :)
48 • Linux popularity and LUGs (by Jordan on 2018-10-16 16:44:25 GMT from United States)
@43 I agree. It's almost impossible to find out, though, as to what percentage of computer users have some distro of Linux, or perhaps BSD, as an alternate, let alone their primary operating system.
Googling that does not help much.. the data is ridiculous. This article is fairly recent and states 1.8% of computers in the world run Linux:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-many-linux-users-are-there-anyway/
So.. LUGs would not be in demand much.
49 • Linux users (by Jesse on 2018-10-16 16:53:14 GMT from Canada)
@48: I'd like to point out that the 1.8% number applies to desktop computers, not all computers. Probably over 40% of the world's web servers, for example, run Linux.
I'd also like to point out that 1.8% of desktop computers is probably over 50 million computers. That's more than the entirely population of my home country.
LUGs were highly popular back in the late 1990s - early 2000s when the number of Linux users was 1/10th that number.
There are several reasons LUGs aren't as popular as they used to be, but the number of Linux users is not one of them.
50 • Users vs Servers and the 1.8% figure (by Jordan on 2018-10-16 19:11:40 GMT from United States)
That 50 million estimate as to users may be unintentionally inflated, as the data yielding the 1.8% is gathered by server hits, meaning some bloke in Adelaide who uses Windows or a Mac might have messed with his Antergos install for a while then went back to work on his work machine.
The data gathered for Windows and Mac users, as well as Android and iOS, is gathered from sales.
51 • unintentionally inflated (by MikeOh Shark on 2018-10-17 01:27:38 GMT from Ukraine)
@50, consider also that those desktop users bought computers that likely came with Windows. My own computer came with Windows but I only boot into it every 3 months, run Windows Update, and then reboot into Linux. Once back in Linux, I suspend to RAM instead of shutting off and rarely boot into Windows. Note the sales data show me as a Windows user but it's maybe an hour every 3 months and daily use in Linux.
I have always doubted the desktop Linux figures. I think they are too low.
I have my dad using Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, and VLC. Eventually, I will likely even have him using Linux. It will look familiar.
52 • Portable packages os (by Tim on 2018-10-17 18:02:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re 44. Isn't Endless os built from flatpaks?
Seems a worthwhile project
53 • @51 "I have always doubted the desktop Linux figures. I think they are too low." (by Linuxer on 2018-10-17 19:29:07 GMT from Germany)
But they're supported by the most recent numbers from browser headers.
54 • Cnchi (by JC on 2018-10-17 22:16:38 GMT from United States)
"Here the installer failed"
Yep. Sounds like Antergos alright.
55 • @52 Worthwhile project | Portable packages (by frisbee on 2018-10-18 06:32:27 GMT from Switzerland)
"Seems a worthwhile project."
Actually seems more like "one more unneeded" or "Seems NOT a worthwhile project."
It seems like, what you call a "worthwhile" is more of a "customized" distribution.
The whole thing about a "worthwhile project" is pretty easy. There is maybe a dozen "worthwhile" projects (Arch, Debian, Gentoo, RHEL, Slackware, SuSe ...) and half a dozen of "half-worthwhile" (AntiX/MX, Mint, Salix ...) once out of some 3000 out there and the rest is "lost resources".
Unique selling point is one of the things that make it worthwhile, something like Mageia tools for example.
Let's take a look at RHEL: RHEL is a worthwhile project. Then we have its clones. CentOS, Rosa Enterprise Linux (not free), Scientific, Springdale ... Now, one of them is worthwhile, namely CentOS. Since RHEL is basically free but, not available unless you compile it on your own, there is CentOS who's doing it for you. Springdale or Scientific? Not worthwhile since all they do is recompile RHEL, same like CentOS and then add a couple of tools for their own (CERN, Fermi Labs, Princeton) needs. The very same could be achieved by adding those tools to CentOS. The energy lost could be invested in developing a set of tools like Mageia tools, for example.
Or Ubuntu and Mint. Ubuntu is a worthwhile project which brought a Linux to masses and developed great Unity DE (it's still great even if you don't like it or use it like me) Mint is not a worthwhile project. Mint is the example for half-worthwhile project since they created Cinnamon DE, but as it's based on Debian or Ubuntu, it should actually become an official Debian and Ubuntu "flavor" (or "spice").
Or Arch and its clones ... Arch is definitely a worthwhile project. Antergos, Manjaro ... are not. There should be an arch-do-it-yourself-and-make-yourself-some-work-if-you-have-no-life.iso (Arch itself) and an arch-made-with-love-and-just-working.iso (Manjaro).
Putting the synergies together would produce a better Linux and everybody would profit. Diversity is not always the advantage and, by the way, it doesn't get lost - everybody can still take a basic Distro, add X and its own set of tools and make itself a very personal, own and "diversified" distribution.
Taking a basic OS and adding some customized DE, adding some apps to it and putting it on a website for download, does not automatically make it becoming worthwhile.
Here some sane reading (among many, many others) about the topic:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linux-fragmentation-sum-egos.html
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linux-perfect-desktop-formula.html
56 • LUGs, past involvement (by G.Wolfe on 2018-10-18 08:10:15 GMT from United States)
I was a regular attendee, even a founder, of various computer user groups (since 1981.) There is still an active LUG in my area, but I don't drive anymore so access to meetings is an issue.
Another problem is that the topics the LUG is covering are getting more technical and more enterprise oriented; thus less relevant to me in retirement and home use.
57 • linux user numbers (by MikeOh Shark on 2018-10-18 11:50:59 GMT from Switzerland)
@53, browser headers aren't sufficient to determine number of Linux users.
Tor in Linux shows Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0, many privacy oriented Linux users spoof their headers so as not to stand out, and some users spoof their headers because there are still some sites that don't work well if they get a correct header.
The above may not be sufficient to prove there are many more Linux users than counted but perhaps the Linux users are not hitting the counter/stat sites as often for other reasons.
58 • @54 (by jaws222 on 2018-10-18 13:32:03 GMT from United States)
True, that installer is a pain, but once you get it installed Antergos runs beautifully. It would be nice if they looked into something other than Cinchi.
59 • useful (by Tim on 2018-10-18 18:41:34 GMT from United States)
@55
I think you are missing the point of the word "distribution" in "linux distribution."
I agree that there is something special and valuable about the base distributions- they do the heavy work of compiling packages and maintaining repositories. That doesn't make the others worthless.
Every distribution is a selection of software designed to work together. From the init system to the package manager to the desktop environment to logging to specific applications, there are a zillion choices a distro maintainer can make about what is included.
No one runs "Debian" or "Ubuntu" or "Arch." Every user runs a subset of packages that are available in that ecosystem, most of which are installed by default and some that people chose. But the vast majority of packages available aren't chosen.
The maintainers of the base distro make a choice of what packages to include by default. For many users that choice is acceptable and matches their needs. But for other users, different defaults would have been better or preferable. There are many valid systems that can be thrown together from software in the Debian repos.
You can make the claim that Manjaro is just Arch tweaked to work a certain way, or Mint is just Ubuntu tweaked a certain way, and that anyone could do it. But the point is that not everyone has to any more. A lot of people really like Manjaro and Mint because the software they include by default matches their needs. That means that people without the skills to customize Arch or Debian can still benefit from Arch and Debian. It means that the Arch and Debian repositories are being used in a different, but still useful way.
That has value. It helps people quite a bit. Even those of us who know Linux pretty well benefit from seeing a specialized distro. When I was setting up computers for my classroom, I looked at Lliurex, a distribution the education department in Valencia, Spain put together for their schools. The computers at this point are back to running Debian, but without Lliurex I would have never known the breadth of software available for a classroom computer. It really helped me.
60 • Worthwhile, @55, 59 (by Angel on 2018-10-19 01:59:15 GMT from Philippines)
Worthwhile is not an intrinsic quality. It is relative. It needs a qualifier: worthwhile to whom?
Back in '06 I was in Bogotá on business. Had a MacBook and a Windows laptop and needed both. XP quit and would not reinstall, so I turned to Linux. Ubuntu was best known, so I tried that. Problem was, my only internet connection was a corporate WiFi in the building across the street. To connect my laptop I needed ndiswrapper, and to install ndiswrapper I needed to connect. In came PCLinuxOS and Linux Mint. Both included ndiswrapper with a little GUI program to get it done. PCLinuxOS caused my HDD to stutter, so that left Linux Mint. Worked like a charm, the only worthwhile one. By what Clem chose to include, he made my life easier. I have since tried and used many distros, but Mint has always run in at least one of my PCs.
This is not the corporate world, streamlined to minimize effort and maximize profit. This is for the most part people with other jobs, doing what the want and love, and to them it is worthwhile. Maybe they will be successful, and maybe someone like me or you may find worth in their projects, or maybe not and the project will die. Yes, with all this duplication and "waste" desktop Linux will never beat Windows, or Mac, or whoever the next bugaboo is. So what?
61 • Worthwhile - Post # 55 (by Winchester on 2018-10-19 12:32:12 GMT from United States)
Four out of your six "worthwhile" distributions employ systemd.
Any distribution using a good init system other than systemd automatically vaults that distribution into a contender for being a "worthwhile" distribution in my view.
Of those,some don't function as desired and some DO function as desired.
I do use some systemd distributions (multi-boot about a dozen GNU/Linux systems as I posted in prior weeks) but,for anything sensitive,I boot into a non-systemd distribution.
From there,I ask myself,what are the security implementations,which software is available. Gentoo is great but,more work than some others. Slackware similarly takes more work than some other alternatives. Slackware has a lot of old but,stable and well tested software available. Slackware Current is not the most stable solution ever.
So,other non-systemd distributions besides Gentoo and Slackware are "worthwhile" in my opinion.
As post # 60 stated,it is relative and subjective I suppose.
Also,it is well "worthwhile" to use up-to-date software - obviously including web browsers in many or most cases.
62 • I currently lead LUG meetings (by Roger Depa on 2018-10-19 23:06:41 GMT from Belgium)
In our computer club I currently lead LUG meetings every month two to three times.
Most people that come to join our work-group are fed up by MS and W10.
They want an OS that's simply works and that they can update when they have the time and is not pushed down there throat.
Linux is getting more and more momentum and I slash W10 down for the rubbish it is.
Not that I am not using MS but only Win 2000 Pro Sp 4 and Win 7 Pro 64, that's only two computers on they more than fifty I own.
Tux rules at my place.
63 • About "worthwhile" (by frisbee on 2018-10-20 14:08:52 GMT from Switzerland)
Well, so simple it's not. Of course, you can make "worthwhile" dependable on your personal needs or preferences if you want but, in itself "worthwhile" is not relative at all.
Are the planes or trains worthwhile even if you never ever traveled anywhere by them? ;)
However, the main point here is still "the lost resources" thing.
Let's say we have 3000 Linux distributions and hardly a handful of them works partially.
Let's say, we have 10 developers per distribution in average.
I imagine that there would be some slightly better chance on getting one single, fully functional distribution if 30'000 developers would join and work together on it and I'm 100% sure that it would be much better standing against the competition than now when it's developed by 10 or, even only 1 person.
64 • @63 (by Angel on 2018-10-20 15:18:42 GMT from Philippines)
Planes and trains are worthwhile to those who use or benefit from them. If no one traveled by them, there would be no reason at all for their existence. There are already OSes where thousands of developers work together and as directed. They are called Windows, MacOS, ChromeOS. Do we really need another?
65 • Worthwhile @63, 64 (by Jakis on 2018-10-20 19:29:46 GMT from United States)
Trains and planes are used extensively in the world, so their existence is more than worthwhile. Likewise, the OSs that are extensively used by people are worthwhile to people, whereas the other OSs/distros that have to fight fr existence is not that worthwhile, maybe to try out/play with and so on. It is very hard believe that any other OS/distro would take the place of Windows, MacOS and ChromeOS ever.
Number of Comments: 65
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