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1 • Slackware (by ddk on 2018-07-30 00:47:37 GMT from United States) |
Slackware's time has come and gone relegated to a bygone era of computing.
If the project is under financial stress, there's not enough interest to keep it going.
SW is a an example of what would have happened if Windows didn't have the overall popularity, marketing savvy and financial resources to progress and evolve, everyone would still be using Win 95.
And how many users are on SW vs Windows/Mac OS?
Don't shed a tear for SW, the target user base is mainly hobbyists, not relevant for average everyday computing.
2 • Slackware (by Jesse on 2018-07-30 00:54:51 GMT from Canada)
@1: "If the project is under financial stress, there's not enough interest to keep it going."
If you read the linked forum discussion you'll see that the Slackware store appears to have raised around $100k, they just haven't transferred it to the project yet. And, since the news came out, PV has stated they received enough donations to keep things running for a while. There is huge interest in Slackware. The problem wasn't people not wanting to support the distro financially, it was the funds not getting to the developer.
3 • #1 (by jadecat on 2018-07-30 01:09:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have been using Slackware since 1997 and have had no problems with it. It does everything I need it to.
Just go to the Slackware forum at Linux Questions to get an idea of how many people still use it. If you want a more cutting edge Slackware then you use the current branch.
Sure it is not as popular as it once was. But so many other distributions have that dubious honour. I for one will be renewing my subscription and hope to help out in my own small way.
4 • Slackware (by Steve Younger on 2018-07-30 01:27:19 GMT from United States)
Can you please supply the source of the study which enables you to say "the target user base is mainly hobbyists?" This way the reader can know that your assertion is not you creating your own reality.
5 • Subject (by Name on 2018-07-30 01:48:40 GMT from United States)
Aren't you a sweetheart . . .
6 • Slackware (by Steve younger on 2018-07-30 01:49:46 GMT from United States)
Oops, mea culpa! My omission. Message directed to DDK, meail #1 above. Can you please supply the source of the study which enables you to say "the target user base is mainly hobbyists?" This way the reader can know that your assertion is not you creating your own reality.
7 • Ubuntu MATE: Applications-Places-System menu? (by any mouse on 2018-07-30 02:05:53 GMT from United States)
One reason I do not use MATE is the Applications-Places-System menu, which always struck me as silly. A few distributions offer MATE with a traditional menu (Solus is one, I think). The author confused me with his photos of Ubuntu MATE, because the first nine show a single menu, while the tenth shows Applications-Places-System. Is that configurable?
8 • Slackware (by Geo. Savage on 2018-07-30 02:12:38 GMT from Canada)
Slackware was my first distro back in '95. It nearly broke my spirit, and almost most put me off Linux for good. Regardless, I'm upset they've been cheated, and wish them restoration to economic health.
It was Mepis (now MX Linux) that brought me back.
9 • The Poll (by Andy Figueroa on 2018-07-30 02:54:59 GMT from United States)
As a Gentoo user, I chose "Other," though Gentoo users use a "ports-like" system to keep their systems up-to-date from source code, or binary packages, with their package manager, which is kind of like "All of the above."
10 • thanks (by George on 2018-07-30 03:04:09 GMT from United States)
Thanks so much for the thorough reviews each week.
"Even if you're set in your ways, try a new distribution now and then." Great suggestion. There is no substitute for a first hand experience. However, unless you give it a "try" for a few sittings, and spend some time at least reading the forum, you can easily fool yourself. The problem for some of us is that we just don't have the time to give a fair tryout to all the new stuff. Your thorough reviews are a big help.
MATE feature set suits me just fine, including desktop, file manager, and text editor. There are several/many MATE options in the Ubuntu derivative world. Mint 19 MATE seems to me to be less responsive than Mint 18 MATE, but can't back that up with numbers. Just an impression. Mint MATE has a 5 year lifecycle. Ubuntu MATE is only 3 years. Mint has 32-bit available.
11 • Software Updates (by M.Z. on 2018-07-30 03:11:27 GMT from United States)
Regarding the poll - I put 'Other', as in mostly what's in the package managers & a few select Flatpaks. I've done some other stuff in the past to get newer software than was in the repos of point release distros; however, booting into Mint & firing up a Flatpak app seems easier & more reliable than most other options. I did something like what's described in the poll to get a newer copy of LibreOffice in LMDE 2, but I I'm looking forward to the possibility of just using Flatpaks in LMDE 3, like I have with Mint 19. The automatic updates just seem so much easier.
12 • delayed shutdown of systemd jobs (by Call Me Pliskin on 2018-07-30 03:52:44 GMT from United States)
I had this in the past on Xubuntu w/systemd. It took me a while to figure it out.
It occurred whenever I installed a Debian on a system which already had Xubuntu. If I then booted to Xubuntu, the Xubuntu shutdown would take 5-10 minutes. This was because, although Debian would use my existing swap partition, it would assign it a new UUID. The Xubuntu fstab had the old UUID, of course, so could not find swap. I imagine it then did a serial serach of the partitions (16 of them) trying to find swap. Or something.
Changing the UUID of swap in the Xubuntu fstab (or just using the device name) fixed the problem. Why the Xubuntu swapon didn't take appreciably longer is a mystery to me. But the fix worked, so I didn't persue it beyond that.
This would of course occur with any linux that re-UUIDed swap.
13 • Ubuntu Budgie (by toptekdrifta on 2018-07-30 04:15:49 GMT from Australia)
re: Ubuntu Budgie 18.04: In these days of complaints about bloated distros, it's very brave for any distro to have a puffer fish on the desktop !!
14 • Building Software Updates from Source / Slackware (by Kevin on 2018-07-30 04:46:11 GMT from United States)
As for the opinion poll - all of the above, and more. I'm running FreeBSD on my web server, Gentoo on my desktop box, and a few other distributions under VirtualBox. I build from ports, emerge from portage, update with aptitude, slackpkg, sbotools, and would update with sorcery if SourceMage ever released another stable grimoire.
Slackware was the Linux distribution I started with. I don't remember the version, but it was somewhere back in the 1.x kernel days when Slackware came on a pile of floppies, or floppy disk images. I'm not currently using it as my primary desktop OS, but I do have it installed under VirtualBox, and I am considering switching back to it as my main desktop OS. There's a lot of things I love about Slackware, including its track record. The fact that it's the oldest Linux distribution still in use says a lot.
15 • Ubuntu Mate and Budgie (by Ed on 2018-07-30 08:51:09 GMT from South Africa)
So happy someone else sees this, I thought i was the only one, I have been having so many crashes across multiple machines with ubuntu 18.04. Lubuntu, Ubuntu, etc doesn't matter, applications falling over one after the other and a reinstall may fix the error you are having, just to open the door to 10 others. So disappointed.
I just downloaded the 18.04.1 update CD's to see if its fixed, anyone else know if it is fixed yet?
16 • Ubuntu (by jan on 2018-07-30 09:40:44 GMT from Poland)
It's seven years that I use Xubuntu as my daily distro, having Kubuntu as a backup and Windows 7 for using MS Office. In light of what Jesse just related concerning Ubuntu Mate and Budgie, and confirmed to a degree by my latest upgrade to 18.04.1 from 18.04 I cannot help, but ask how is it possible?. If something breaks down in the technical realm of our existence (I'm not talking about politics, beliefs and feelings), there is always an underlying technical cause, albeit sometimes hard to find. So Canonical, please explain how is it possible that each and every new release of yours carries more and more regressions and annoying bugs? Is it maybe of your cozy relationship you seem to enjoy more and more with the monopolist in the desktop software area? Yes, each release is better under the hood, but on the outside it looks inconsistent and laggy. Does someone pay you to have it that way or you don't have enough funds to iron out the bugs?
17 • Ubuntu MATE (by Pat Huff on 2018-07-30 10:49:22 GMT from United States)
Most distros have bugs in early release stage, then smooth out with subsequent releases thanks to the hard work of developers and testers... I tried Ubuntu MATE 18.04 on an old netbook and found it to be too resource-heavy but went back to the 16.04.4 version which is working great. Actually for old netbooks, the distro I like best is MX Linux and then Antix if speed is the priority. (my 2 cents worth).
18 • 1GB RAM (by jasna holera on 2018-07-30 11:42:11 GMT from Netherlands)
The overheating on the ubuntu distros reviewed demonstrates what a stupid idea it is to overload the RAM with useless garbage like graphics fluff.
Co-worker has win10 (2.5GB RAM at idle) loaded on some "trail" celeron CPU laptop and it just kills it. Literally half hour until it fully loads and disk stops grinding. lol. Having gnome going down the same road just goes to show how copying MS/apple/google is just the path to pooville. I'm sticking with LXDE, 177MB at idle. Now if only I knew how to get rid of the idiotic vanishing scrollbars, it would be annoyance free.
19 • Ubuntu...stuff (by OstroL on 2018-07-30 11:49:11 GMT from Poland)
"I experienced a distinct feel of lag when using both these editions of Ubuntu 18.04"
This is now the standard with Ubuntu. Since Cannonical dumped Unity DE for financial problems, Ubuntu development had slowed down. The desktop doesn't bring in cash, so why should Cannonical bother. These "derivatives" have most times only 1 or 2 developers, and none of them are paid by Cannonical.
I don't expect Ubuntu and its derivatives to get out of the "distinct feel of lag" in the near future.
20 • Slackware (by César on 2018-07-30 11:58:43 GMT from Chile)
Slackware is not dead. In LinuxQuestions is very clear the problem with Pat (BDFL) and even in the page of Alien Pastures (Eric Hameleers) is clear: PAT IS BROKEN.
I'm very angry when a read the problem with Slackware Store, they are a scoundrel with Pat. They win $100k, and don't give to PV.
But, the community is using Paypal to help him, is a very good idea, help is always welcome.
In other way, i use Slackware since 2003, i and waiting for the next version.
"Usuarios de Ubuntu saben usar Ubuntu, los usuarios de Slackware saben Linux".
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
21 • The problem with programmers. (by Garon on 2018-07-30 13:21:45 GMT from United States)
"I was able to watch several videos at the same time and still open other applications without delay just 10 years ago on less powerful hardware with a 900MHz AMD processor this is a huge step backwards". From the review.
I believe we have all noticed this. Remember 30 years ago when 256 mb was a lot of ram and you could do so much with that. Programmers in the old days were not wasteful with the resources that they had to work with. They were careful and efficient with their code. No so today. With what seems to be unlimited resources coders don't have to be careful. This problem affects us all. Who knows how to cure this problem? I haven't got a clue. Do you?
22 • 18.04 (by Tim Dowd on 2018-07-30 13:37:17 GMT from United States)
Maybe I’m the only one, but I’ve been pretty happy with 18.04 (the Mate edition mostly.) The only bug I’ve had is that Kodi seems to be importing metadata wrong but since that’s from the “universe” repo it’s hardly Ubuntu’s main concern. I’ll update to 18.10 because I’ve always had good luck with the interim releases but I’d be fine sticking on this one if I get busy
The default in 18.04 is a single menu at top. The traditional one (which I like ) is available in Mate Tweak. He clearly switched between screenshots.
One other thing about 18.04... it is the first Linux distro I’ve seen to be able to interact with an iPhone. That was the last thing I kept Windows around for so that’s exciting
23 • Ubuntu mate and Budgie review, and @18 re: Windows (by Angel on 2018-07-30 13:59:41 GMT from Philippines)
I've tried several distros in the last month, and Linux in general seems to be getting fatter and slower lately. Installed Ubuntu 18.04 on a PC with i5 6th gen., 8 gig memory, and it felt snappy enough, but installed on my laptop, (i3 7th gen., 4 gig memory) and I could start Firefox, go get a cup of coffee and it would still be loading when I came back. Had pretty much the same experience with Mate, Kubuntu, other DEs and some other new distros. (Yes, I know I can use something like MX, it's not what I want. I prefer either Gnome or KDE for daily use. MX I keep on a live stick.) Gave up and installed KDE-Neon on both computers. Since it still uses Ubuntu 16.04, It works like a charm. I'm keeping that and will wait to see if things get better.
@18. Your friend getting 2500 gig on Windows 10 at idle must have his laptop loaded with crapware and/or malware. I dual-boot Windows 10 on both my PCs, and it idles at 760. In fact it runs very well on the laptop which has difficulties running the latest Ubuntus.
24 • Adding to Post 23 (by Angel on 2018-07-30 14:05:32 GMT from Philippines)
Forgot: My PC which runs Ubuntu well also has an SSD. The lagging laptop has a hard drive. That may account for a lot of the difference in performance.
25 • Ubuntu 18.04 (by De Cuyper Marc on 2018-07-30 14:10:24 GMT from Belgium)
I don't understand many of the critical voices over the 18.04 buntus.
Ubuntu 18.04.01 works like a charm for me, no bugs, stable and reliable. (However, it's a sad thing they dropped Unity). Programs (eid-software) and my scanner are working flawlessly, not so in mint or debian.
The same can be said about lubuntu, ubuntu budgie, and to a lesser extent Xubuntu en kubuntu. Ubuntu Mate is indeed buggy and unstable in many situations.
I think the feel of lagginess can be brought down to patches in the kernel for spectre and meltdown.
I try a lot of distros on spare computer, but the buntus are still my daily drivers.
26 • Today's review (by Angus on 2018-07-30 15:59:02 GMT from United States)
Simultaneously running the stack of programs the reviewer lists on a laptop with spinning hard drive and 2GB of RAM is an invitation to crashes and slowdowns. That was a test of the hardware, not the software.
What changed in the years since the reviewer's imagined Golden Age of 10.04 and 12.04, of Netscape Communicator and Gnome 2? Information density. DPI. Kernel size. Options. Security.
The digital world presents a vastly more complex landscape than it did even five years ago, with greater threats and greater opportunities than ever. Software that has to accommodate that landscape must be a lot more sophisticated than its recent ancestors.
27 • The size of programs (by seacat on 2018-07-30 16:09:28 GMT from Argentina)
Thirty years ago there was still MS-DOS, you had to worry about configuring memory expansion and 32-bit systems were not massive. Since Windows became massive, the applications grew more and more in consumption of resources and while it was all a matter of adding memory and disk, no one cared to take care of the size of the programs. And then Windows itself was responsible for saying "hey, your machine is too little for this version of Windows", which instead of dieting, the order was buy a larger pants.
On the other hand, there is the idea that if we have powerful systems we can take advantage of those features with better graphics, decorations or gadgets. You can also think otherwise, so that you consume resources in unnecessary characteristics? Luckily in the Linux world there are alternatives for both criteria, so if such a distribution is very heavy, slow and resource consuming, it can be changed to a more efficient one.
28 • Xubuntu 18.04 (by paperlesstiger on 2018-07-30 16:46:36 GMT from United States)
I am previewing Xubuntu 18.04 on Virtualbox. It runs great, however, when I tried a different theme, it slowed to a crawl. Maybe there's a GTK bug.
29 • LXQt desktop and modern technologies (by tim on 2018-07-30 16:52:02 GMT from United States)
Six months have passed since I last tested LXQt. Has much chsnged since then? Its panel and menu seemed to lack basic (expected) functionality, compared to those provided by other "desktop environments". Now, they will throw out the baby with the bath water -- abandon development of the relatively mature, and feature-complete, pcmanFM -- and ship a comparatively spartan-featured pcmanQT? I worry that we must now expect several years of break/fix tailchasing before the Qt-chromed file manager reaches feature parity with the existing version.
@12 (delayed shutdown due to changed UUID of swap partition) Yes, that's it! thanks
30 • Ubuntu review (by silent on 2018-07-30 16:54:55 GMT from Hungary)
It is a real shame that the Intel driver has not worked well. It is probably better to disable the hardware accelerated video decoding if problems are encountered. It is also recommended to switch to another compositor or even disable compositing if artifacts show up on the screen. We live in a less than perfect world, but at the moment the *ubuntus and Mint (based on Ubuntu) are the de facto long term supported modern home linux operating systems. There are lots of other great distributions for several other purposes, of course.
31 • Time for Slackware to go the way of Blockbuster? I don't think so at this time. (by RJA on 2018-07-30 16:59:32 GMT from United States)
@1, with your statements, I guess it means that Gentoo should have gone the way of Blockbuster, as well, if not earlier, LOL.
32 • @21 Garon: (by dragonmouth on 2018-07-30 17:09:02 GMT from United States)
The problem you describe is called "feature creep" and "application bloat". It has been with us since the first electronic computer was turned. It is a vicious circle of creating processors that can run existing apps faster and address more memory. However, once you have faster computers with more memory, you can add more features and eye candy, eventually overtaxing the extra resources, resulting in the need for faster CPUs and more memory. This, in turn, allows for bigger programs. Rinse and repeat.
To illustrate: Back in the days when mainframe memories were measured in Kilobytes and storage devices sizes were measured in tens of Megabytes, programmers would try to store dates in as few characters as possible. IIRC, the smallest I ever saw a full date be compressed to was one and half hexadecimal byte - 12 bits. When computer memories got to be many megabytes and storage to be many gigabytes, dates were begun to be stored in an uncompressed format, one character per byte. Depending on a date format, that represented a growth in size anywhere from 5x to 20x.
Another cause of program bloat is "user friendliness". It is not enough for computer users that a program do it job well. It also must be "user friendly", i.e. hold the user's hand and protect the user from him/herself. All that user friendliness can double the size of an application.
Don't blame programmers for feature creep and application bloat. Blame that on marketing weenies and software architects. Marketing promises users more features and glitz and system designers write the specs. Programmers only code the specs they are given.
33 • Bernhard's Ubuntu Review (by MC on 2018-07-30 17:28:36 GMT from United States)
Thanks for your review of Ubuntu MATE/Budgie editions Bernhard. You echoed my experience exactly when you said that you found Bionic Beaver to be "too buggy and running too hot to be used as a long-term stable operating system"! I also found the same to be true with Linux Mint 19 which is based on Bionic. Also, for some reason, on both distros, systemd-udevd keeps hogging all the resources bringing my computer to a virtual standstill! Perhaps this is a problem limited to Dell computers as this thread on AskUbuntu seems to imply (https://askubuntu.com/questions/1028883/ubuntu-18-04-systemd-udevd-uses-high-cpu-conflict-with-wifi), but in the end I found myself heading back to my trusty old Debian Stretch!
34 • Half-hour or the like for Windows loading, even with 10? (by RJA on 2018-07-30 17:47:55 GMT from United States)
@18, yikes! Sounds like Windows 10 possibly dropped the ATA HDD transfer rate to PIO mode, because of ATA communication errors. That's 4 MB/s or 5 MB/s for the HDD!
And PIO mode uses an extremely high amount of CPU, as well!
That usually means a bad ATA/SATA cable or a bad connector on the motherboard or the HDD.
35 • Poll and distro testing hardware (by cykodrone on 2018-07-30 18:14:55 GMT from Canada)
I voted other in the poll because I have done/do a bit of everything. Back when I was a stumbling and falling down baby penguin, I wouldn't dare veer from the repos.
Dear DW, I noticed Ubuntu Mate was tested on different from the usual hardware, no offence but I dumped my C2D machine for a faster one in the late 2Ks. Just out of shear curiosity, do you use slower hardware on purpose?
36 • poll (by a on 2018-07-30 19:03:38 GMT from France)
As a Gentoo user I don’t see which answer I should select in the poll… "Other"? That seems strange.
37 • Feedback (by Barnabyh on 2018-07-30 19:10:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
@7: There's a choice of three or four menus, the 'Brisk' menu being the default one. The old menu is also still available and used by one of the layouts in MATE Tweak. As is the other one, cascading Win95/98/2000 style. Even GNOME 2 always had these two menu options. And I think the SUSE 'slab' menu is also in there. Can't remember exactly, it's been a while since I wrote the review.
@12: Ubuntu was the only and newest installed distribution, apart from an old Puppy rescue partition.
@13: That was my own imported wallpaper! Certainly not Ubuntu standard ;-).
@26: Well, I didn't run all of them at the same time, but one should be able to have more than abrowser with two tabs open with 2GB of ram, even these days. Not long ago that wasn't a problem, and still isn't in some other distributions. I haven't tested Devuan yet but would expect that to fare better. To use something vaguely comparable.
@35: That's because it was a different reviewer this time and this is the hardware I got. As stated in the introduction, many people are still running older equipment that used to be fine until now. Doesn't seem that slow to me though when running the right distribution. Scientific Linux worked well in the past and anything Slackware based. Running Absolute Linux right now as I'm typing this - replacing Ubuntu Budgie. This is actually the most powerful machine I have. The old 900MHz Spitfire chip is still around :). It was Zenwalk that let me watch 10 videos at the same time and still launch a word processor and browser.
Thank you all for your comments. Interaction is appreciated.
Just one more thing on the failed VPN installation on Budgie, to head off any possible misunderstanding. The installer was executable, the 'permission denied' error occurred during the installation when calling Ruby.
Have a good week all.
38 • Ancient Hardware, Contemporary Software (by LostMoon on 2018-07-30 19:56:59 GMT from United States)
It’s not appropriate or useful to review 2018 software based on running it on ancient hardware.
39 • @35 C2Ds and Linux (by Rev_Don on 2018-07-30 20:31:15 GMT from United States)
"Dear DW, I noticed Ubuntu Mate was tested on different from the usual hardware, no offence but I dumped my C2D machine for a faster one in the late 2Ks. Just out of shear curiosity, do you use slower hardware on purpose?"
Just because you ditched C2D systems doesn't mean that everyone has, can, or has the need to. For the average user who surfs the web, does some e-mail, basic office work, listens to music, watches some videos, some basic image editing, etc, a C2D system with a couple of gigs of ram can still be a very viable and competent system. Throw an SSD in one and you have a very responsive system. Sure a newer Core i system is nice but a Linux system should run quite nicely on a C2D. If it doesn't then the distro is too heavy (unless the hardware is defective or has less than a gig or two of ram).
Considering that the reason a lot of people run Linux is to keep older systems like that running it seems perfectly natural to do a review using one, especially for a more mainstream distro with recommended and minimum requirements that are more than exceeded by the C2D.
40 • @38 re: Ancient Hardware (by Rev_Don on 2018-07-30 20:33:39 GMT from United States)
"It’s not appropriate or useful to review 2018 software based on running it on ancient hardware."
A C2D SP9300 is far from Ancient.
41 • Ancient hardware indeed (by mikef90000 on 2018-07-30 23:10:41 GMT from United States)
I appreciate Bernhard Hoffmann's thorough reviews of MATE and Budgie Ubuntu and the work that went into them.
Some of the crufty GNOME 2 like features that persist in MATE confirm why I stick with XFCE. I'm not a fan of most classic DE default layouts and themes, but IIRC MATE panels and the widgets on them can be rearranged to your preference. The 'killer feature' of switching between different layouts is also present in XFCE using xfpanel; you can also save your own.
I'm pretty sure that there is an alternative widget to the fugly 'Applications-Places-System' menu; why A-P-S is still the default is very baffling.
Some holdover GNOME2-isms I would hardly call 'elegant'! One in MATE that drives me nuts is the lack of a panel 'widget list' to let you find and move very small objects like separators, spaces, indicators, unset launchers, etc.
As for the slowness observed with both DEs, I point out that the authors hardware has a Centrino CPU and only 2GB OF RAM - Yikes! I'm sure that background processes account for this performance hit as it does on my similar 12 y/o laptop.
42 • Ubuntu LTS Reviews (by Ben Myers on 2018-07-31 05:14:01 GMT from United States)
The elderly Dell laptop used by Bernhard Hoffman in his review is surely underpowered, which explains its tendency to overheat. DDR3 memory for this model is now abundant and cheap, and taking the system memory up to 8GB would lead to a different experience, and, very likely, no overheating. The best investment for the owner of an older system, desktop or laptop, is to max out the memory.
43 • RAM + OSs (by el complimento on 2018-07-31 05:16:59 GMT from Australia)
Current OS landscape:
2G RAM > good for mini OSs, or normal OSs but using smallish apps.
4G RAM > minimum nowadays for most OSs and apps to run well.
Future OS landscape:
The browser will eventually become the OS, and all apps will run in the browser.
44 • S-L-O-W Windows 10 (by Ben Myers on 2018-07-31 05:26:49 GMT from United States)
@18 Although I am not at all a fan of Microsoft, it makes no sense at all to point out the 1/2 hour to start up a Windows 10 system, without some hardware facts. There are three likely causes of slow startup time. First, malfunctioning or incorrectly configured hardware. For example, the BIOS of many computers allows two options to set up hard drive access, either the modern and fast AHCI or an ancient and slow IDE-compatible mode. Next, the hard drive may be failing with many defective sectors. I see this a lot in my service business. Finally, like the laptop used for this week's Ubuntu reviews, the system may have way too little memory.
So, diagnose cause first. Next, fix the hardware. Then see what happens.
45 • Ancient Hardware, Contemporary Software (by TheRealist on 2018-07-31 09:18:40 GMT from Serbia)
@38 I concur.
In this issue the tester is trying to "review" Ubuntu Budgie on ridiculously old and weak hardware when it is clearly advertised by the developer to best run on newer one. Even moaning about resource consumption which is equally not helpful.
Too many people these days see Linux as an OS that can resurrect scrapyard junk and get indignant when they find out it is not.
46 • ancient hardware (by notreally on 2018-07-31 10:38:50 GMT from United States)
Agreed, it is long past time to forget supporting old computers.
These days who uses them but backwards third worlders and other losers anyway?
Time to relegate them to the scrapyard along with their junk.
If you can't keep up with traffic on the autobahn you are not allowed on it.
47 • Core2Duo (by Tim Dowd on 2018-07-31 10:42:58 GMT from United States)
I use a Core2Duo every day as a media center computer. It streams, surfs the web, plays HD videos, all with pretty impressive speed. On what planet is it scrapyard junk? It hadn’t even crossed my mind to consider replacing it.
48 • Ubuntu Budgie edition (by Carlos Felipe Araujo on 2018-07-31 11:25:47 GMT from Brazil)
Why Ubuntu Budgie edition has plank? It's posible create a dock using a panel (budgie). And why recreate a gnome shell experience? I love Budgie, but I don't like this ubuntu flavor.
49 • @47 TimDowd: (by dragonmouth on 2018-07-31 12:25:45 GMT from United States)
"On what planet is it scrapyard junk?"
On planet L33T whose inhabitants brag "Mine is bigger than yours!"
50 • Bernhard and his ancient hardware (by Angel on 2018-07-31 12:38:51 GMT from Philippines)
I'm loath to disagree with all these experts here, but I experienced pretty much the same problems with Ubuntu Gnome and Mate as Bernhard did, sans the overheating, which I didn't check for. Now if a core i3-7100U with 4 gig memory is ancient, then so be it. And before I'm told I have problems with hardware, Windows 10 64 runs happily in another partition.
Funny thing is, I installed Mate, using the same ISO, on a Virtualbox VM on the Windows side of the same laptop and it runs fine, idling at 540 MB or so. Go figure. Which brings me to the supposed need for super memory and such for modern OSes. I have Windows 10 32 on a VM, with 1.4 gig memory, and it runs fine. 64 bit is happier with 2 gig. Now I'm not going to be doing any video editing or other fancy stuff with it, but for most users needs, it would suffice. It will run browsers, office, etc. with no problems. I just donated a 2006 laptop with AMD Turion CPU, IDE HDD and 2 gig memory. It is running Windows 10 and Mint 18.3 Mate. Can't update to the latest Windows (1803) version because they dropped support for the Radeon Express 200 graphics, even in compatibility mode, but otherwise it still does its job well enough.
As for the extremely slow PCs: In my many years of dabbling and troubleshooting, especially in Windows, I tended to bet on the user before messing around with the hardware. I was usually correct.
51 • @18 RAM on ancient hardware (by Ulisses on 2018-07-31 13:45:05 GMT from Brazil)
You should try my favorite distro: Wattos R10 is based on LTS 16.04 and run very responsive 176Mb at iddle on my ten year old vaio laptop. My screenshot: https://ibb.co/gJJfPT
52 • Next up: Ubuntu 18.04 on a 486? (by CS on 2018-07-31 14:14:56 GMT from United States)
Not clear how old that laptop is but that CPU was released in 2008. Minimal RAM, no SSD. Maybe Slackware is not the only one facing a cash crunch? You can buy laptops with twice as much RAM and a more modern CPU for less than $100. This doesn't reflect what your typical user is going to experience running this OS, plus the reviews on this site are generally done on hardware far more capable. What gives?
53 • Source install poll options (by linuxgeex on 2018-07-31 14:55:29 GMT from Canada)
I see a pretty distro-specific option "ports"
If we're going to have that then we should also have:
Pull directly from upstream Git/SVN or other RCS
54 • Stop dreaming people (by Garon on 2018-07-31 16:03:12 GMT from United States)
Don't tell me how well Windows 10 runs on old laptops because then you would be exaggerating.The only way a person could stand to use Windows 10 on an old laptop with an AMD Turion CPU and two gigs of ram is if they were retired and had nothing else to do but sit there and watch the screen load. I've tried and also I've seen many people with old laptops wanting to run Windows 10. It's not a pretty sight. I know from experience the resources that Windows 10 takes. A lot of Linux distros would fare no better. It may start off well enough but that warm and fuzzy feeling won't last long. Only an old version of Windows or a Linux distro made for minimal systems will run well on older laptops. That's been my experience but yours may vary.
55 • Ancient hardware, contemporary software (by Avis on 2018-07-31 16:17:53 GMT from France)
You can run X11 comfortably with even less than 64MB. For that you need to use light
alternatives. Consider running MuPDF instead of Evince, st instead of
Konsole/GNOME-Terminal, fluxbox/cwm/dwm instead of GNOME/KDE/Xfce/etc. Don't
use GUI when there's a CLI or a command to do that: Ark -> tar/zip/gzip/bzip/etc;
Thunderbird/Evolution -> mutt or mail(1) (or its forks); Rhythmbox -> moc/mpd/etc.
Learn to use dc(1) instead of your fancy calculator, and vi(1) instead of your fancy IDE,
and you are good to go. You would need to get rid of your mainstream distribution too,
though, because it is supplied with big silly stuff like systemd, dbus, udev, snaps, glibc,
NetBSD to this day still supports older Sun's and SPARCs, and even VAX, which pretty
much shows that you can run modern software on various ancient toaster producing
machines. OpenBSD supported VAX until 2016. Many people are still running m86k,
DEC's Alpha and Octanes, though 64-bit SPARCs seem to be most common.
56 • @54,you show me yours (by Angel on 2018-07-31 17:23:20 GMT from Philippines)
I'm 72 years old and have been working with and on computers since my early years. Retired here in the Philippines, set up a PC repair business for my young wife 9 years ago. We also fix and donate older laptops and such. The Turion AMD laptop was given to a college student. I'm sure he and I will live on with your disbelief. Here's a screenshot of one of my Windows 10 VMs. Perhaps you can show me your bloated Windows that won't run on anything https://www.flickr.com/photos/69485990@N05/43717623542/in/dateposted-public/
57 • @ 54 Nonsense... (by OstroL on 2018-07-31 19:03:53 GMT from Poland)
Some people can give credit to Linux only by attacking Windows. We don't have to talk at all about Windows here. AT ALL!
You have an old laptop? Install the distro (Linux, of course) that was released at that time or even after few years after. It'd work, period! When your old laptop stop working with the newer Linux distros, get a new laptop, or keep on using the distro that was good for it.
And, if Windows 10 doesn't work on your old laptop, or even with your new laptop, don't complain here. Go to a Windows forum. That's your headache, not Distrowatch's or Linux users, period!
58 • hardware and testing (by edcoolio on 2018-07-31 20:22:27 GMT from United States)
I would just like to make some points here, for all of those complaining about the test hardware.
1. That laptop is plenty to run even Windows 10 about as well as a full distro 'buntu. The point is to get people to switch from closed and evil to open and free, not make them run away.
2. Many people still use rust spinners because they are cheap, plentiful, and have larger storage options per dollar. He even chose a 7200RPM model, to be fair.
3. A C2D T9300 is on par with an i3-2367M, i3-3229Y, and A6-7000 (2015). It is far from crap. You want crap? I give you: CherryTrail
4. Just because a processor has been around for a long time, does not make it automatically slow.
Sure, if it were my laptop, I would shove in an SSD and max RAM. Having said that, this is far from an unfair test for a set of linux distros whose main selling point is: "it's not Windows, so it is faster, better, and will run on your older equipment so you don't have to buy a new one every year".
If you don't believe me, google something like "old computer tower what to do with it" and see what comes up. This is what people have come to expect of Linux.
I liked the review and would like to see more like that.
To give you an example, I have Lubuntu 17.04 running on an Pentium M 400mhz FSB, 2gb, ide to msata adapter with an old 16gb module. I had to strip down stuff running in the background/boot and uninstall some programs. I shouldn't have to do that, but whatever. It isn't the fastest, but it is completely usable as a daily driver with Chromium and LibreOffice installed. Easily on par compared to Windows 10 on those stupid CherryTrail processors, thanks to single core speed.
If the Lubuntu upgrade goes sideways, as they always seem to do, I'm putting either Bodhi (when 5 comes out) or Q4OS on it. I've just about had it with the 'buntu from Canonical.
Just say no to the bloat.
59 • Thanks for the engaging comments (by Barnabyh on 2018-07-31 20:26:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
@45: I think it's fair and helpful for would-be users to point out that Ubuntu Budgie is using 1GB of ram just straight into the desktop. That is not a complaint but a finding. Whether you've got 2, 4, 8 or even 16Gb ram, not everybody likes using that much resources just to run an interface and background cruft. I prefer to use mine for multimedia and gaming, with some email fetching in intervals in the background.
Apart from that, a review is not just about hardware and resource usage but also about differences in ootb installed applications, the software centre, whether settings stick or require a restart, the whole desktop experience. It can be useful though to have a pointer that some distributions perform heavier than others. That's all.
60 • Thanks for the engaging comments (by TheRealist on 2018-07-31 22:43:08 GMT from Serbia)
@59 I hink you've missed my point. The thing is, for practical purposes and for the sake of productivity we all do multitasking so it's beside the point to use a machine with just 2GB on board as third party software will choke it. I'd go as far as to say that any browser with several opened tabs will render it useless. Even if you happen to use a much lighter DE than Budgie.
2GB is meager even on smartphones.
61 • Realistic Memory Needs (by M.Z. on 2018-08-01 17:48:40 GMT from United States)
@ 'ancient hardware' complaints
Why would anyone think a multi core processor is 'ancient'? I can see the complaint being valid about old single core CPUs, and certainly old 32-bit single core hardware; however, the is a dual core 64-bit CPU we are talking about. That's a perfectly modern CPU description, even if the cores are older & fairly weak compared to recent CPUs. Yes 2GB of RAM is a bit low, but also perfectly reasonable from where I'm sitting. When last I looked closely, I thought 4GB would be a reasonable minimum for RAM on a new system & here people are chewing out 2GB on a used laptop?
Hell I'm running a few tabs in Firefox ESR with Clementine playing in the background on Mageia KDE & I don't think I've gone past 1.2 GB of memory used. I don't see how any of these complaints about old test hardware are valid.
Why not face the reality that many Linux systems are old hardware in need of a modern OS to be safe? I think that's a fairly decent chunk of Linux installs & the test hardware for this weeks DW post fit right in line with that part of the Linux market. In fact I'd guess a good majority of Linux users are like me & just keep running old hardware as long as it's still half decent & working. I have a mix of old & new hardware, & I've found some fairly decent uses for fairly old hardware.
62 • @61 Re: Realistic Memory Needs (by Rev_Don on 2018-08-01 18:12:51 GMT from United States)
Finally someone who gets it. Any distro will be snappy and responsive on a 2 year old (or newer) system with 8 gigs of ram and an SSD. We all know that so a review on hardware like that tells us absolutely nothing useful. How well it runs on a slightly older system like a C2D with 2 gigs of ram that really tells us how good it really is. If it runs reasonably well on a C2D then it should, and 99.99999% of the time run well on a newer system while the reverse isn't the case.
Plus people running C2Ds with 2 gigs know they will have to deal with less than stellar performance compared to new hardware and are willing to cope with it as long as they are able to get what they need done. What person A might find way too slow or unresponsive and incapable of doing what they need person B may find perfectly acceptable for their needs. It isn't for any of us to tell someone else what they do and don't need in regards to how new or powerful a computer they MUST have.
I deal with a lot of people with fairly basic computing needs and limited financial resources. Very rarely do any of them feel the need to replace a working C2D system with something newer unless something physically breaks. The few that do play newer games, something that most do not. Different needs for different people. I've yet to see a customer complain about running Facebook, YouTube, e-mailing, chatting, or general internet tasks on a C2D that weren't internet speed or malware related. They don't need an i7-8700k with 16 gigs of ram to do that.
63 • Sad attitude (by curious on 2018-08-01 21:26:07 GMT from Germany)
@46 You call people using old computers "backwards third worlders and other losers".
At least the expressions "backwards" and "losers" are offensive. This sort of name-calling whould not be necessary if you actually had an argument.
Unfortunately, all you seem to say is that you see yourself an people like you as superior (especially in relation to people from third world countries), and everyone who can not keep up with you should be trashed.
Perhaps someone else should be dumped instead?
64 • Re the Lubuntu "shift" (by R O on 2018-08-01 22:18:57 GMT from United States)
It seems to be a shift to 64-bit only after 18.04. As I responded on their explanation by leader Simon Quigley, more to others than responding just to him, especially this bit from responder "Hellslinger":
"There does not seem to be a good reason to use a 32bit only system in 2018 when a used 64bit can be had for <$100. I've even seen low end atom and celeron based notebooks at BestBuy for $100-$150 brand new, and they are superior to even the most powerful 32bit only systems."
To which I responded:
Regarding the BestBuy (and other sellers) Atom's, have you ever seen any distro, let alone Lubuntu, that can be installed on them with their wacky 32-bit UEFI/32-bit Windows 8/10 on th0se 64-bit capable Atom's? There must be millions of those "freak" PC's from the last 3-4 years (I have 5 of them in various models), that Microsoft has abandoned with their major updates, 1703, and later, that could be made useful for Linux IF any distro would come up with a way to get by their weirdness. I found one slightly older Knoppix version that could at least boot into a graphical DE on a few (it could auto-select the appropriate 32-bit or 64-bit UEFI utilities it seems), but could not do much else, and later versions don't even get that far any more.
I have found that more recent low-end PC's with both 64-bit UEFI and Windows 10 (usually Celerons, and newer Atom's such as my Asus Transformer T100HA) can take a "modern" Linux installation (although there will likely be some battles with drivers for their wifi/audio/touch screens, as I had/have with my Transfomer), but the typical 2GB RAM is still limiting for 64-bit, distros. Lately, I am seeing more of these low-end PC's with 4GB starting to show up, but still only 32GB eMMC "drives", so Windows 10 gets by with those specs (until the first big semi-annual update hits the typical PC user who pays no attention to frequent file purging of their C: drive ...).
I had hopes that lightweight distros, such as Lubuntu, would figure out the "magic" of how to make these low-end PC's an inducement to switch a lot of frustrated Windows 8 and 10 users, but that has not happened over the last 3-4 years as far as I can tell. Now I just hope Lubuntu (and other such "lightweights") can finally mesh up with the slightly more powerful low-end PC's, and not keep just tantalizingly ahead of them with too big a jump in hardware requirements.
Anyway, it seems time for me to give up hoping any distros will "catch up" to those early Win 8/10 "teasers", and donate or scrap them. Looking at Raspberry Pi's more seriously now for a low-end "utility" PC (still 1GB RAM limitation so far) .
65 • To Jesse (Q&A) (by Yuri on 2018-08-01 22:27:02 GMT from Russia)
"echo 'deb-src http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free' > /etc/apt/sources.list"
Maybe right command look like:
"echo 'deb-src http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free' >> /etc/apt/sources.list"?
66 • @63. Sad indeed (by Angel on 2018-08-02 01:10:26 GMT from Philippines)
It is indeed a sad fact that too many think that the universe revolves around any Podunk town in the US of A. Not all are as obvious as the one with the "losers" remark. There are also assertions about older units not needed because there are cheap ones at Best Buy or Walmart. Seems the earth is flat and one drops off the edge at the USA's frontiers. Never mind that almost 80% of PC shipments are outside the US, and the US share is dropping.
I may be a bit biased. i haven't been back the the US in some 10 years, and my main contact with US expats is once in a while at that great American export, McDonald's, where they lay claim to their cultural superiority by badmouthing the locals.
67 • Realistic Memory Needs (by TheRealist on 2018-08-02 02:01:11 GMT from Serbia)
@61 And how many times did you witness description falling short in practice? ;)
On paper. Core2Duo is a "modern" CPU... In practice, as GPU video acceleration of YouTube clips, is mostly absent in browsers, the poor C2D will very likely end up maxed at 100% any time you venture to set video resoulution to 720p.
That's way I think such ancient hardware should not be used for testing purposes. it's not fit even for basic usage anymore. It will inevitably include a negative "coloration" each and every time due to hardware constraints.
As per your RAM usage while surfing with "Firefox ESR and few opened tabs", that largely depends on which urls you visit as there are already many "heavy" sites that will easily put you in the swapping zone if there's only 2GB available.
So, once again, not good enough for basic needs, let alone unbiased testing...
68 • Slackware (by Stephen on 2018-08-02 05:47:03 GMT from South Africa)
Many thanks for bringing publicity to Pat's plight with Slackware funding. I might otherwise have learned eventually, but Distrowatch is my go-to source for news about distros, and your spreading the news confirms once again why that is so.
Donation made, and happy to do it. Slackware is one of the pillars of the Linux community. We all owe Pat and his collaborators thanks.
On another topic, @46 was an obvious troll. Ignore trolls, everyone. It works.
69 • Dell Lattitude E4300 (by OstroL on 2018-08-02 07:24:34 GMT from Poland)
This laptop is from ~ may 2009, so its performance with 2018's distros shouldn't be considered as a good (up to date) review. Ubuntu 10.04 (2010) would've run like magic in it. That it is running Ubuntu 18.04 somewhat only tells us that Dell had been making good laptops, but not the quality of the today's Ubuntu. If it was run at least on a laptop with Apollo Lake or a Ryzen processor, we would've got a better review on performance.
70 • @ 69 OstroL: (by dragonmouth on 2018-08-02 14:01:30 GMT from United States)
"If it was run at least on a laptop with Apollo Lake or a Ryzen processor, we would've got a better review on performance."
Maybe yes, maybe no. If most readers are using Apollo Lake or a Ryzen, the review would be meaningful. If most readers are using C2Ds or Athlon 2s then the review would be meaningless. The fact that a Bugatti Chiron can go from 0-200 km/h in 6.5 seconds is useless for the people driving a Syrenka.
71 • @67 Re: Realistic Memory Needs (by Rev_Don on 2018-08-02 19:19:49 GMT from United States)
"On paper. Core2Duo is a "modern" CPU... In practice, as GPU video acceleration of YouTube clips, is mostly absent in browsers, the poor C2D will very likely end up maxed at 100% any time you venture to set video resoulution to 720p."
I just happen to be working on a friends Intel E2220 which is a Pentium just below a C2D from Q1 2008 when I read this. I just had to check how it handled YouTube with the onboard graphics with the Intel 945G chipset from 2005 and 2 gigs of 667 ram. Sorry, I don't have a more recent C2D rig setup at the moment, but running a 720P YouTube video used 22-25% cpu. Bumping that to 1080P only raised that to about 30%. Both ran smooth as butter. This is running Windows 10 (clients preference) and is using about 1.4gigs of ram running Youtube. And this is while Windows is running updates.
So that blows your nonsensical theory out of the water. You might want to let those of us who actually work with C2D systems provide more accurate and more up to date information on these matters rather than speculate. I will state that 2 gigs is about as low as I would recommend, but a well maintained C2D system is a more than adequate system for the average user.
72 • Ancient Hardware/Ubuntu Review With Intel GMA 945 (by cba on 2018-08-02 20:38:37 GMT from Germany)
I don't think that this graphics chip will not work in a proper way with current linux software. Dual Core 64bit systems with Intel GMA 945 are supported, even in latest Fedora and Opensuse.
What we need is a bug report.
I mean, what driver is used, what opengl version (Intel GMA 945 is capable of using opengl 2.1, maybe there is a bug and Ubuntu 18.04 uses only opengl 1.4 for it), is software or hardware rendering used (and so on)?
This is not a philosphical topic about "ancient hardware", this is a topic about "how to find and squash an up to now unknown bug" in a current linux distribution that supports such older 64bit hardware.
73 • @ # 72 A bug report. (by Benny Boggy on 2018-08-02 23:29:54 GMT from Canada)
here is just one where
Linux Kernel tops # 1st rank with 2097 bugs. [ CVE DETAILS TOP 50 PRODUCTS ]
followed by MacOSX, Android and Chrome.
It is just kernel, where as bugs in boot-loader, Compiler LVM, NFS, NFC, ... ... ... are not counted.
Complete Linux distro might cross more than 10,000+++ bugs in total.
74 • C2d (by Tim on 2018-08-03 01:31:16 GMT from United States)
My C2D has 4 GB of RAM and a very cheap AMD Radeon Cedar graphics card. It has no problems whatsoever streaming HD video. I’ve never seen it maxed out in the 4 years I’ve used it as a media computer. The only time I’ve ever pushed it to the limit is encoding 1080p video. Which it does, it just does it slowly.
These machines are more than adequate for well beyond basic needs. And at least mine isn’t having any troubles with 18.04. The idea that it can’t handle a modern distro is just wrong.
75 • @ 73 • @ # 72 A bug report. (by pengxiun on 2018-08-03 02:11:58 GMT from New Zealand)
"Linux Kernel tops # 1st rank with 2097 bugs. [ CVE DETAILS TOP 50 PRODUCTS ]"
not too bad for (+) 250000000 lines of code.
equates to less than 1 reported bug per 25000 lines of code.
I have no idea how many characters that equates to.
At least the linux kernel publishes those bugs.
Do Apple or Microsoft publish discovered bugs for their kernels?
76 • dear Distrowatch 1999 (by Willie Buck Merle on 2018-08-03 02:14:46 GMT from United States)
Wow I thought my stuff was oldISH... now I don't feel so bad! If you are running dual-core for desktop-linux never a need to brag about how great those weak knees are for doing today's everyday lifting. Linux is really for servers and those are already way past C2D bubblahs. jez sayin'
ps. obligatory linux praise: ubuntuLTS still works pretty decent if you have a clue.
77 • Junk (by Gary W on 2018-08-03 03:26:35 GMT from Australia)
@45 Linux can indeed resurrect scrapyard junk, with a distro proportionate to the hardware. Not a fairy-floss GUI like GNOME or KDE. Or, depending on the tasks to which it is applied, no GUI at all. I once had Debian on a 1991 laptop with 8 megabytes of RAM.
As @57 says, the best distro is one which was current when the hardware was new.
78 • Ancient Hardware (by penguinx64 on 2018-08-03 04:30:05 GMT from Bahrain)
I think it's great that Linux supports alternatives to the latest WinTel 64 bit computers. Microsoft and Intel want you to throw all these old computers in a landfill and spend big bucks for their 'latest and greatest' stuff. But many of these old computers can be recycled using Linux for web browsing, office apps and casual gaming. I'd like to see a few more distros support 32 bit non-PAE processors with less than 2gb of RAM. There is still some life left in this ancient hardware. Why not recycle, save the environment and save a few bucks too?
79 • core 2 duo (by imnotrich on 2018-08-03 05:02:48 GMT from Mexico)
My 2010 mac book core 2 duo (that I'm using to type this on) is with 4GB RAM light years faster than my 2015 HP laptop with an AMD A6 and 8GB of RAM. Yes, I understand the difference between Mac OS and Microbloat Windows 10...but still, here in Mexico people are still running 3.1, 95, 98, XP, and so on. Not everyone can afford a brand new UEFI locked into Microbloat OS only computer every year, and why would they want to anyway? There's nothing compelling about W10.
80 • @71 Realistic Memory Needs (by TheRealist on 2018-08-03 10:02:58 GMT from Serbia)
@71 Nonsensical, really?
If you read again the review, you'll notice that playing multimedia in both distros caused his machine to almost stop and overheat. Because the CPU was maxed due to no hardware acceleration, what else could have been the cause?
Also, I get 35% when playing 720p VP9 encoded YouTube clip in Chromium running on weakish but still much recent G1820 with GT720(2GB proprietary driver in use) graphics.
I suspect that your figures are not telling the truth.
81 • ubuntu 18.04 review (by Mark on 2018-08-03 10:26:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Glad it's not just me noticing Ubuntu 18.04 being laggy.
My almost-new Dell laptop is much slower since upgrading from 16.04 to 18.04. Not so much that I'd want to downgrade, but definitely noticeable, and it eats battery life much quicker too. I was hoping it would improve with 18.04.1 but nothing seems to have done unfortunately. Lots of bugs.
This laptop originally had Windows 10 on it, and I have to say that was _much_ faster and more efficient with the battery usage. Not that I want to go back to it, but I'm just saying..
82 • @ # 75 Linux Kernel tops # 1st rank with 2097 bugs. (by Benny Boggy on 2018-08-03 12:14:55 GMT from Canada)
@ # 75 Linux Kernel tops # 1st rank with 2097 bugs. [ CVE DETAILS TOP 50 PRODUCTS ]"
"not too bad for (+) 250000000 lines of code.
equates to less than 1 reported bug per 25000 lines of code.
I have no idea how many characters that equates to. "
Of course, it is negligible as I was expecting few bugs at each and every line of the codes of every single package in the distro. I just started filling-in following calculation sheet for the distro I am using, and I am pretty sure I will keep using it even after I am done with filling-in the numbers and totaling.
LINUX REPORTED VULNERABILITIES
Linux Kernel 2097
Any complete Linux Distro contains minimum 1000+ packages plus dependencies.
One partially fixed and few moe new introduced.
Intel and AMD, both, have already given up on Spectre. But, so called self-made or chosen to be as the "Lord" is chasing Spectre ghosties since day 1.
And, Developers are trapped badly into a game sort of Whac-A-Mole.
Linux Users are purely at the Merci of developers.
83 • Current distro (by Tim on 2018-08-03 16:25:23 GMT from United States)
@77 that’s not correct. There’s no need to run old distros on old hardware. You might avoid resource hungry distros as the computer gets older but staying up to date is worth it. The C2D I keep saying works great has had a Ubuntu based distro from everything from 15.04 to 18.04 with no noticeable differences. The only time it’s worth staying with a no longer supported distro is if the newer ones really won’t run. That’s happened to me once in ten years, with an iMac G4.
84 • UbuntuMate/Budgie review (by Bill on 2018-08-03 17:19:25 GMT from United States)
Next time please list the Hardware used for the Review first so I can decide to disregard without wasting my time. Thanks
85 • @80 Re: Nonsensical (by Rev_Don on 2018-08-03 17:26:48 GMT from United States)
The Nonsensical comment was that the CPU would run at 100% viewing a 720p YouTube video. And the SP9300 cpu and the Intel 4 series integrated graphics in the Dell Latitude E4300 (or M4300 the reviewer doesn't clarify which one he has) laptop do have hardware acceleration.
My assertion is that the problem is with the Distro or the Kernel being poorly coded, not the hardware as those laptops and others with similar hardware do not have any of the problems he mentions when running Windows (even Windows 10) or other Linus Distros not based on Debian. He even states "But I did notice the laptop running very hot on AC power and during multimedia usage, something I noticed with all recent Debian based distributions using a 4.x kernel." during the review. He also states that "I've had better performance before from some distributions that shall remain unnamed in this review." More indications that the problem is the Distro or the Kernel not the hardware.
I can't confirm this as I haven't tried 18.04. I don't bother with a new release until the first service release (18.04.1) which I haven't had the time to try yet. I've found over the last 15 years or so that initial Ubuntu LTS releases tend to be nothing more than a glorified open beta release where all of the bugs they should have found and fixed are revealed by the masses. Most of the major bugs are fixed by the first service release which makes it the first release worth installing or testing. And based on the reviews I have seen I don't see any compelling reason to bother with it.
86 • 85 Re: Nonsensical (by TheRealist on 2018-08-03 23:32:24 GMT from Serbia)
Well, let me tell you this: I'm currently running Mint 19 Mate with 4.15.0-29 kernel on the aforementioned G1820 machine which is esencially the same distro, and I haven't noticed that it's getting on the edge to overheat during multimedia playback.
I do get 35 or 70% CPU load(depending on resolution 720/1080p) when playing online YT videos since Chromium or any other browser I tried, won't use the graphics card for video decoding but when I play local FullHD videos through MPV set to use VDPAU, the system load falls below 10%.
So the issue is clearly not with the poorly coded kernel or anything else of the kind but with an outdated hardware which cannot handle DEs requiring hardware acceleration(which especially goes for Budgie) for optimal performance and only hog the processor in fallback software mode.
For the past month or so, I've never seen that Mate causes more than 1-2% load when idling. In contrast, he was getting 8-10%.
87 • Ubuntu LTS and old hardware (by Arghalhuas on 2018-08-04 11:33:26 GMT from Spain)
The first point release of Ubuntu is seldom stable. Not even an LTS. At least now they admit it. You have to wait at the very least till XY.04.1.
I used to run Lubuntu on my old hardware. I have just switched to Bodhi, which runs more smoothly. Manjaro and AntiX also seem to be sensible options.
The problem is not only that Linux distros are getting fatter and fatter, but also that old hardware is deprecated in the kernel.
88 • @ # 86 (by Benny Boggy on 2018-08-04 12:01:59 GMT from Canada)
@ # 86 Linuxmint 19.0 default wayland installation.
Linux Mint 19 Cinnamon and Mate I am trying now. Linuxmint 19 installed Wayland by defaults, installed is not modular or granular. My new hardware performs reasonable with systemd.
How to configure Wayland client side in details?
89 • Re Benny Boggy (by TheRealist on 2018-08-04 12:51:40 GMT from Serbia)
Mint 19 is not using Wayland. Though some components are installed, X is still running the show. You can check with>
Then use returned session ID with
loginctl show-session -p Type
90 • @87 (by edcoolio on 2018-08-04 18:16:15 GMT from United States)
I completely agree.
My post #58 has a lot of my points, but I wanted to add Q4OS. While waiting for Bodhi 5, this is what I'm using and I'm actually impressed.
AntiX does quite well, but doesn't seem to have quite the polish/functions of Bodhi and Q4OS.
As for Lubuntu, I have no issues with the previous release. I even went through the extra step with the 32bit install "forcepae" go get it running on a Pentium M. However, I think I'm done with Lubuntu from here on out.
Like you said, it is a double hit. The distros, even many of the "light" ones, are getting fatter while losing support for older hardware. This is the opposite of what Linux should be doing... and I'm getting sick of it.
91 • 'systemd' (by R. Cain on 2018-08-04 19:18:43 GMT from United States)
@ # 88, and everyone else--
"...My new hardware performs reasonable with systemd..."
One of the more enthusiastic and most positive testimonials for 'systemd' you'll ever see...
Why don't you all give some thought as to why one of the better Linux distributions, which also just happens to carry the developer's NAME and long-standing excellent reputation with it, does NOT use 'systemd'? The distribution? KNOPPIX. Isn't it interesting that someone who puts their name and reputation on the line, and the distribution, will NOT use 'systemd'? You need to give simple fact some serious thought.
Want another great non-'systemd' distro, which was named the best of 2017? MX-17 Linux (-point one, now): #4 on DistroWatch's 7-day tally. Light-weight; full-featured; outstanding battery life; runs like a champ on 32-bit hardware; 1200-1300 MB download. See OCS Mag for a detailed review of the 'best of 2017' Xfce distros.
92 • Light Distros & Week HW (by frisbee on 2018-08-04 19:27:21 GMT from Switzerland)
If you want a full featured DE distro, take Salix XFCE.
For the people who know something about HW, it even made almost usable machine out of Nokia Booklet 3G.
No any other OS ever worked properly on it, not only because of 1 GB of RAM but, processor is at 100% allready when you start some program.
If RAM is your problem, it uses approx. 250 MB, which is approx. 1/2 of that what Manjaro or MX-17 XFCE use.
One big difference: Salix responsivness is light years ahead of Bodhi, Manjaro or MX; about anything Gnome 3 we don‘t even wanna talk.
93 • @ # 89 and @ # 91 (by Benny Boggy on 2018-08-04 19:48:23 GMT from Canada)
"89 • Re Benny Boggy (by TheRealist on 2018-08-04 12:51:40 GMT from Serbia)
Mint 19 is not using Wayland. Though some components are installed, X is still running the show. You can check with>
Then use returned session ID with
loginctl show-session -p Type"
THANKS FOR YOUR INPUTS ON MY QUERY.
Checking Dependencies and Reverse-Dependancies, removal of unwanted ones, and broken packages. I need little time to sort-out mess.
one can also use
linuxmint@user$> ldd -v | grep "not found"
to check broken or missing packages.
@ # 91
A valid point has already been noted before - a way back!
94 • @90 no point in getting sick (by TheRealist on 2018-08-04 19:58:03 GMT from Serbia)
"Like you said, it is a double hit. The distros, even many of the "light" ones, are getting fatter while losing support for older hardware. This is the opposite of what Linux should be doing... and I'm getting sick of it."
It is a fact of long standing, actually. Back in the days I recall running Fedora(9? Gnome2) on a machine with Pentum II and only 32MB RAM. Can you believe it?
But the time, software, hardware goes on and so should we.
95 • @ # 94 (by Benny Boggy on 2018-08-04 21:33:53 GMT from Canada)
"It is a fact of long standing, actually. Back in the days I recall running Fedora(9? Gnome2) on a machine with Pentum II and only 32MB RAM. Can you believe it? "
I have some P-II, P-III, and one P-4 on which SLITAZ is still running like a charm without any problems for more than a decade. In addition I have installed some games for kids from some debian based discontinued french distro for kids. Whole bunch of neighbors kids are having food, drinks, fun and fight in front of the eyes in every evening. very old version of SLITAZ still standing out on machines less than 128MB of RAM.
"But the time, software, hardware goes on and so should we."
96 • Smallest, fastest, runs-on-anything Linux distribution? (by R. Cain on 2018-08-05 03:30:31 GMT from United States)
32-bit; requires 8 MB ram, 10 MB HDD, i586 CPU. FAT 12/16/32, EXT 2/3/4 compatibility. Written entirely in assembly language. See KolibriOS, Wikipedia, and Kolibri's website.
Reviewed by Jesse here on DW in 2009 (31 August) and dedoimedo on March 16, 2012.
Some reviewers have seen 3-second boot times. others "...less than ten...".
For a more up-to-date, very good review, see Issue 204/2017 of Linux Magazine: "Exploring the extra-tiny KolibriOS--Little Friend".
97 • @86 Re: Nonensical (by Rev_Don on 2018-08-05 16:25:35 GMT from United States)
So first you claimed that 720P YouTube would push the CPU to 100% causing it to overheat was the fault of older hardware which is what I called you out on as being Nonsense. Then you revise your claim to coincide with my findings and you continue to claim it's the fault of the hardware being too old to handle a current DE and not with poorly codded Distro and/or Kernel. Again I call nonsense on that as the latest release of Windows 10 on the exact same hardware plays 720P YouTube using less cpu (about 20 to 25%) and doesn't come close to overheating. Windows 10 is a modern DE that doesn't have a problem with older hardware which pretty much shows that the problem is with poorly coded Linux software.
I also spent several hours testing multiple Linux distros yesterday and found that the latest release of Fedora, PCLinuxOS, and a few other distros with the Mate DE along with Distros based off of the Ubuntu 16 base ran significantly better on this hardware than those based off of Ubuntu 18. All of the distros were tested in their stock configurations both from a LiveUSB and installed to a hard drive and/or SSD. Bare metal installs were tested both out of the box stock and fully updated. No additional software was installed except for Chromium. Most testing was performed using FireFox, but Chromium was also tried on the Mint 19 ver 2 and Mint 18.3 installs.
Now I'm not doubting that your specific system had problems. I don't have access to it to know for sure, but to make a broad statement that ALL C2D systems are incapable of handling a modern OS based off of a single case is the definition of the word Nonsense.
For the record I tested using the following hardware yesterday.
E2220 (C2D era Pentium) with 2 gigs of DDR2-667 ram with a 7200rpm spinning rust SATA2 drive on an Intel 945 chipset and integrated Intel graphics. This system is less that half as powerful as the G1820 you were using.
E8400 (C2D) with 2 gigs DDR2-800 ram with a 7200rpm spinning rust SATA2 drive on an Intel G41 chipset and integrated Intel graphics. Slightly lower performance than your G1820.
T3400 (C2D era Pentium) with 2 gigs DDR2-667, 5400rpm spinning rust SATA2 drive on an Intel GL40 chipset with integrated Intel graphics. Laptop with performance similar to the E220 desktop, about half of your G1820.
None of the above had any problems with overheating and fans were not running hard on the laptop. The E8400 was using about 20% for 1080P YouTube videos. Tried multiple YT vids and also check each system with the same vid to minimize variables. I ran all 3 from a $25 US SSD and they all became noticeably more responsive with minimal lag. The SSD didn't change the CPU usage for YT, but it did lower the overall temp of the laptop. Now this isn't to say that ALL C2D systems will run ALL modern DE's or OS's, but it is a strong indication that not all of them are incapable of doing so even without the hardware accelleration.
98 • 97 Re: NonensicalT (by theRealist on 2018-08-05 22:31:50 GMT from Serbia)
You are obviously in denial, what else can I tell you. Even when you read a review which clearly points to the contrary. Anyway, if your system perform that well, I am glad that they do.
However, I have just installed and tried the latest Firefox and it turns out that I also get much lower figures from running online videos. 20-25% for 1080p. Very odd indeed...
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