 DistroWatch Weekly |
| Tip Jar |
If you've enjoyed this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly, please consider sending us a tip.
(Tips this week: 1, value: US$1.50) |
|
|
|
 bc1qtede6f7adcce4kjpgx0e5j68wwgtdxrek2qvc4  lnurl1dp68gurn8ghj7ampd3kx2ar0veekzar0wd5xjtnrdakj7tnhv4kxctttdehhwm30d3h82unvwqhhxarpw3jkc7tzw4ex6cfexyfua2nr  86fA3qPTeQtNb2k1vLwEQaAp3XxkvvvXt69gSG5LGunXXikK9koPWZaRQgfFPBPWhMgXjPjccy9LA9xRFchPWQAnPvxh5Le paypal.me/distrowatchweekly • patreon.com/distrowatch |
|
| Linux Foundation Training |
|
| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Where is "don't give a flying fart"? (by zoof on 2018-06-18 00:17:16 GMT from United States)
I find both SysV init and systemd fine. I've used OpenRC. They all worked fine.
2 • Systemd FTW (by Jake on 2018-06-18 00:36:47 GMT from Brazil)
Very easy to use, common init, easy to manage, quick.
3 • Init System (by Rev_Don on 2018-06-18 00:45:55 GMT from United States)
I'm more concerned with the overall quality and usability of the distro is and how well the Init system is implemented than which one they use.
4 • Poll (by DaveW on 2018-06-18 00:52:52 GMT from United States)
This poll really needs a "don't care" option. I do not pick a distro based on what init software it uses, but on whether it does what I need.
5 • Good riddance to OpenSuse Leap 15! (by OS2_user on 2018-06-18 00:59:18 GMT from United States)
Two weeks ago, I posted that installed the above and was for once of late pleasantly surprised that it worked, though groused about not even seeing my 1600x900 monitor. So, with "advice" (from someone who first suggested that I buy another monitor) resolved to, er, set the resolution.
So, again through settings, nothing missed; again looked for discovery of monitor's capabilities, no such. Was going to start browser and look up that Weekly to add TEXT to startup file -- as though it's the 1980s! Ran mouse down to open program menu and -- got no menu! Just the "Applications" title with nicely rounded corners, and it only flashed up for a second!
Surely a top-level KDE problem, not underlying system. The mouse kept working, repeated the above and right-click menu, but NO list, let alone shutdown option.
It was literally second time booted that installation. Real hardware: an old stock Dell. Visibly working fine. NOT monkeyed with. Windows 7 runs fine on it, so not likely bad RAM or any other excuse.
While trying to FIX a basic problem, it's exceptionally infuriating when an even more basic problem pops up! KDE should just simply NEVER lose its MAIN function of starting programs! NEVER!
I wouldn't try to tune the radio in a NEW car when the steering wheel has just come off in my hands! Didn't even bother pushing the power button to shut down and try again, just yanked the power cord. DONE with OpenSuse forever.
Folks, I haven't found one reliable in last year. Despite prior hopes for Linux, I'm exhausted. A big LACK and then UNUSABLE just during initial testing! -- Doesn't help if "works for you". Perhaps you're more patient and ignore flaws or like to "fix" them.
-----
Yes, I should stop reading and commenting here, then. It's become morbid humor, though.
6 • Init choice, does it matter or not (for me) (by TheTKS on 2018-06-18 01:19:57 GMT from Canada)
As a home desktop user who just wants things to work so I can work (except when I’m tinkering), choice of init system probably doesn’t impact me directly.
Still, I voted Sys V because:
- My favourite distro, Slackware, uses it, and runs incredibly stably and starts up quickly enough for my needs
- Systemd doesn’t get the vote because: my other main distro, Xubuntu, and another I use from time to time, elementary (and I like both distros) have given me a systemd related problem (eventually solved); the developer’s attitude during its development (which I could overlook if his solution gave something clearly superior to the alternatives, for my use); and I just can’t shake a mild mistrust of its approach, even though I can’t point to anything specifically impacting me (aside from the one problem)
TKS
7 • Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0.0 ascii? for the Raspberry Pi (by Tux_Raider on 2018-06-18 01:46:06 GMT from United States)
where is the raspberry pi image of Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0.0 ascii?
i searched their website and found the x86 and x86_64 iso images, but none for the raspberry pi, (armhf?) i have a raspberry pi 3 b+ and an extra microSD card i would love to give Devuan a spin on it,
i noticed that rasbian with the default install is consuming 25% of the CPU just doing nothing, i would rather find something less resource hungry just sitting there idling, freeing up resources for apps, i been wanting to do afew things with my pi, but mostly as a SDR radio server on my LAN, (rtl-sdr dongle) maybe openwebrx server too open to the World Wide Web if the little thing can handle it
8 • Raspberry Pi images (by Jesse on 2018-06-18 01:49:12 GMT from Canada)
@7: You can either go to our Devuan information page and follow the Download link or jump directly to the Devuan ASCII download server to get Raspberry Pi images: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/embedded/
9 • RE: 8 (by Tux_Raider on 2018-06-18 02:16:46 GMT from United States)
thanks!!! downloading now, i will put it on soon
i am grateful to the old school linuxes like slackware and since debian jumped over to the borg (systemd) i am glad for Devuan stepping up with a non-systemd debian fork
thanks again :)
10 • Runit (by jcjordyn120 on 2018-06-18 02:34:42 GMT from United States)
I use runit as it's simple and the amount of code in PID 1 should be absolutely minimal.
11 • init (by Qyu Lee on 2018-06-18 02:47:56 GMT from Canada)
I do not think that I ever had a chance for s6 exposure. Apart from that, I have passed by many more than listed on the poll. Only systemd or SysV remained main-stream and is the main choice for Linux users. Upstart and SystemStarter have been faded-out.
In Debian Family, Jessie was the first release with full-implementation of systemd.
Where as Devuan forked for SysV for the init lovers. Devuan (jessie) picked-up old hardware nicely than Debian (jessie). Devuan team did a nice good job.
I do not have any personal preference either for systemd or SysV over one another.
I never had any problems with most recent distros I have tried, they all were with systemd or OpenRC.
12 • As long as it starts (by M.Z. on 2018-06-18 03:33:24 GMT from United States)
I'm with the other commenters. I don't worry about my init system so long as my desktop starts. Quicker & more reliable are pluses, but I mostly just want a decent open source solution for all my software including init. I'm glad those that care about init have a choice, & I hope people can be civil about it.
13 • Devuan, and why I don't like software like systemd, Unity, Gnome, snap (by mmphosis on 2018-06-18 03:47:04 GMT from Canada)
I downloaded the netinst for Devuan for amd64. I understand that amd64 means it will also run 64-bit on Intel chips, that's not confusing to anyone else? I am looking at Devuan because it seems to have most of the same programs that I use on Xubuntu: xfce, firefox, vlc. The mutt email client mentioned in the review seems odd, but I might try it out because although Thunderbird is okay, I find that it has it's problems.
Ubuntu does stuff with GRUB, so I skipped the grub stuff in the Devuan installer and had to carefully and manually type some very very long commands to get things to boot from GRUB. I wish I could telnet into GRUB like I can telnet into Open Firmware on a new world PowerPC Mac, but I digress.
I suffered through Unity and now that Unity is gone, Gnome things are getting in the way. I want a simple fast desktop that I can modify: xfce works for me. I don't really care about systemd, from the start it looked similar to launchd on Mac, but again I like simple and fast and both systemd and launchd add "yet another" layer that I don't need. I don't care which init, but it needs to be simple and fast, and it has to work.
Ubuntu and Xubuntu have worked for me because, in my opinion, they are the easiest to install. Easy to install means easy for people to get started in something they probably will be confused about at first. Easy to install also means more people using Linux which I think is a great thing.
I used the text-based Devuan installer because that is what their site suggested. Gparted, and other Partition Managers are nice, but they should not get in the way when installing. It is definitely a slog to get this type of distro installed, but I have a better idea of what I am getting myself into, and what I don't want to get myself into.
The "snap" software on Ubuntu is definitely out for me. When this began showing up in Ubuntu, I tried to delete it but it keeps coming back in some form. I recently tried an AppImage and I think this is the way to go, but I could very quickly change my mind if anything goes sideways. Flatpak seems like "yet another" type of format, only rather than Ubuntu Flatpak comes from fedora? Nothing against fedora, but each distro seems to have it's own package manager or software format and frankly it is tiresome.
I've done almost all of the steps in the Linux From Scratch (LSF) document. Maybe LFS is the way I should be going, but I would like to try Devuan as it seems closest to the Linux desktop that want to be running.
14 • init (by Hoos on 2018-06-18 04:50:27 GMT from Singapore)
I didn't participate in the poll.
If I like a distro, the init system doesn't matter. However, it is good that there continues to be alternatives to systemd. I'm all for choice, particularly on as divisive an init (plus plus) system as systemd.
I have systemd, sysV and runit distros on my multiboot machine.
15 • Preferred init software (by Subaru on 2018-06-18 05:02:39 GMT from Japan)
I tend to like SysV more than SystemD however I don't get a chance to use it much, maybe my next big project will be trying to switch SysD with SysV on my system :3
16 • @13 - flatpak (by Hoos on 2018-06-18 05:05:13 GMT from Singapore)
"...Flatpak seems like "yet another" type of format, only rather than Ubuntu Flatpak comes from fedora?"
Don't know about that, but Flatpak works with non-systemd distros out of the box (ditto Appimage).
Snap requires systemd, so unless someone has the technical knowledge to bypass that, it does not seem to be a good universal choice for a "sandboxed, all-dependencies included" format.
For myself, I only use flatpak and appimages, but only where my distros' repositories don't have a particular program that I need.
17 • Poll confusing (by JS on 2018-06-18 06:07:05 GMT from United States)
I don't understand the poll at all. Busybox? Since when are boxes busy? what do they do? Nosh? What does Linux have to do with food? OpenRC and RC, what does it differ if I fly my model plane openly? Runit? What in the world is an runit? How does it differ from an sunit? What is s6? It is a linux way of saying six? And, what about systemd? Please tell me that is a misspelling. Surely SysV is one, right? So, I see Upstart here, and wonder what politics have to do with it. Now, I can understand "other", but what "other"? Other or maybe it was intended to be spelled "Mother"? This poll is so confusing. I am a Windows user.
18 • "You can't always get what you want" (Rolling Stones) (by denk_mal on 2018-06-18 06:17:35 GMT from Germany)
What I am using is very different from what I want.
I am using those init system that came along with tie distro I have to install.
So if the customer wants this or those distro I will (or must) use the init system that is preinstalled.
For now I will use systemd (debian, ubuntu), sysvinit (devuan), S6 (docker container) and busybox (some embedded systems)
I optimize the init systems by Hand (except systemd of course; too error-proune!) so none of them are faster, more stable or smoother than all the other init systems for now.
If I had a free choice I wiil choose sysvinit (KISS and most documented) or S6 (kiss and really usable out of the box) and if I can defer an init system I kick out systemd (too complex, less documented and to many dependencies to other, not wanted daemons and software)
19 • Devuan (by heri on 2018-06-18 06:42:07 GMT from Germany)
I do care about an init system that wants to make even my desktop choice a dependancy which triggered the move to devuan, at first on my netbook, which is a good testbed or a pain in the rear depending on how you look at it. All the hardware is working correctly even wifi reliable which is not usual. Devuan installation is more complex than Manjaro or Mint but nothing difficult, just more about preferences than quick and dirty.
The desktop is in no way flashy but gets the job done without distraction. In any case you can change it any way you like.
On any Distro I regard the basic software which comes with the installation as a suggestion, Thunderbird and Firefox get removed before an internet connection is established. Telemetry should be an opt in choice and the user respected if he says no. I use claws Mail and palemoon along with Falkon and Netsurf for browsing, installed latest Libreoffice and VLC.
Only thing I miss is the newer version of Gimp, the version available in the official repositorys is much less capable. .
An unassuming grey mouse with superpowers, Devuan is Fast Booting has low resource requirements and is in my experience totally stable. Highly recommended.
20 • #5 what seems more plausible? (by Tired... on 2018-06-18 06:58:57 GMT from Sweden)
... what seems more plausible? That this is a universal problem with a few million users who blindly accepts the DE not starting applications etc? Or something on your end?
If you have a bug, report the bug - this comment field is not where that happens.
Even asking in the Opensuse subreddit, the IRC channel etc is better (but only slightly) as a way to fix your bug.
Finally, Plasma runs perfectly fine here - not because I fixed anything, or because I accept that applications don't run (??? who would do that???) but because it does and it seems like that is the norm (otherwise there would be quite the uproar)
Finally. You yanking out a powercord in rage instead of turning the machine off is not a practical way to deal with problems.
21 • Preferred init software (by ibuidan on 2018-06-18 08:04:21 GMT from Romania)
I've tried to run SliTaz (Busybox init software) installed onto an USB disk ext4 filesystem and I do not get it why at sometime when starting the default session ( executable script ), the programs get into ages of waiting to load to memory and to start running.. Also even though I choose the 64bit kernel image. Slitaz (tazpkg) architecture is i486 ! so I gave up on using SliTaz.
I run Ubuntu 18.04 LTS with systemD and with Budgie Desktop installed from onto hard disk as daily driver. The live cd of Solus hangs in trying to start the display manager in trying to boot in live session so I cannot install Solus using this computer !
I have used debootstrap to create my customized Ubuntu 18.04 squashfs root filesystem for to copy it onto Slax disk as a rootfs.sb module onto an ext4 filesystem ( for to use Slax persistent changes); the init sofware here is systemD .
I want to run newer, bleeding edge software, (Budgie desktop) so I've chose to run Ubuntu instead of Devuan GNU/Linux.
22 • Deepin on Ubuntu base - memory usage at 650MB! (by OstroL on 2018-06-18 09:02:35 GMT from Poland)
If you'd install the deepin ppa from launchpad on Ubuntu base, you'd get a nice DE with low memory footprint. You can see an interesting post and a screenshot here, https://bbs.deepin.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=158378&extra=page%3D1
It says, it is 650MB at idle!
That is less than memory Deepin 15.6 uses at idle, which is >1.1GB.
23 • systemd is not just an init system anymore (by Mathew on 2018-06-18 09:09:17 GMT from Canada)
the problem i have with systemd is simply it is not just an init software anymore.
I accumulates multiple functionalities into one monolithic bunch of code (sometimes very buggy, proven. just crawl their issues on github).
Why should my init software provide a DNS resolver? (and do it badly?)
Why should my init software interfere with linux basics like username handling? (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6259)
Just have a look here and make up your own view: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd#Absurd_bugs_and_responses
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6259
24 • In Praise of Runit, The systemd Dilemma, and The Discovery of Other Init Systems (by win8linux on 2018-06-18 09:15:59 GMT from Philippines)
I personally wish that more distributions would adopt runit as their init system. It's like systemd, but much more minimal. It's quite straightforward to use, doesn't use binary logs, boots and shutdowns very quickly, is compatible with SysV init scripts, and is portable to any POSIX-compliant system.
If only Ubuntu et al. used it, we'd have many of the init-related benifits of systemd without the other cruft. I know that the various components of systemd can be compiled seperately. But when the expected behavior of a distro using said init system is to have the same features available as with others utilizing it as well (read: everything in the systemd repo), it becomes somewhat heavy in comparison to the other entrants.
This week's poll was quite good, in my opinion. Not only is it a way to generate more discussion around init systems, but it may also have helped others discover that there are more init solutions beyond systemd, Upstart, SysV, and OpenRC. I didn't know about nosh and s6 init beforehand and now I'm interested to learn more about them out of curiosity.
P.S. Does anyone here know more details about nosh init? Some light research turned up some dead links such as the one I found on Hacker News: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html
25 • Void Linux and runit (by mcg on 2018-06-18 09:41:57 GMT from Finland)
Void LInux and runit. Nothing more.
26 • screen resolutions (by Tim Dowd on 2018-06-18 10:00:01 GMT from United States)
@ 5
My best guess at your resolution problem is that you're missing a piece of firmware for your graphics card. As Jesse pointed out in the review of openSuse, it doesn't include non-free software by default. I had a similar problem on Debian a few years back, similar to this one
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/04/msg01818.html
I never was able to get it resolved- I was short on time that year so I switched to Mint and Ubuntu which ship non-free software. They worked fine.
27 • init systems (by Romane on 2018-06-18 10:07:19 GMT from Australia)
Honestly, I fail to see, and have always failed to see, what the kerfuffle is about init systems. I honestly do not care what init system my distro uses - if it works, what else really matters. Truth be told - nothing!!. Init systems is one of the things I ignore about whatever distro I choose to run.
Really, it is just another version of "Windows is better than Mac is better than Linux" garbage.
Let the boffins, who devote their time, effort and energy into voluntarily keeping our systems running, and too often under-appreciated, work out what init system they prefer to work and develop with. They are doing a damn fine job on *all* the init systems to make sure they do just that - work.
28 • Voted for SysV init (by TuxRaider on 2018-06-18 10:14:34 GMT from United States)
my all time favorite init system is Slackware's BSD style scripts in /etc/rc.d, but the old SysV style init is good too, i like them because they are human readable shell scripts that can be edited with any text editor,
i tried systemD because i wanted to see how it was and i agree that it is trying to do too much which is not part of the init system's parameters, and what made me mad about it is i would kill a service daemon that was not critical but consuming about 15% cpu and systemD decided to start it up again without my explicit permission.
Write programs that do one thing and do it well.
Write programs to work together.
Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.
29 • poll re init system (by Simon on 2018-06-18 11:49:20 GMT from New Zealand)
Exactly #28. Actually the poll needs an "anything but systemd" option, which might have beat systemd.
30 • Devuan "Ascii" (by César on 2018-06-18 11:54:05 GMT from Chile)
¡Buenos días!
Well, i download and install Devuan ASCII.
I tried with KDE, but IT'S HORRIBLE, the wifi after boot the desktop don't works, only wired connection works, synaptic don't works too (repos error says), aptitude even worst, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, KDE plasma hangs, error after error. Please don't install KDE in Devuan Ascii.
After this horrible start, i tried a second chance, but this time i install Mate.
Now the system WORKS, everything fine, no problem, fast, stable, clean system, nothing extra, 650 at idle RAM required, CPU not forced.
I continue use Devuan because i never like SystemD.
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
31 • 22 • Deepin on Ubuntu base (by Saleem Khan on 2018-06-18 11:55:50 GMT from Pakistan)
@22 , is this PPA regularly updated? I have Deepin installed and would try this PPA on Bionic if it is kept updated with Deepin released latest updates.
32 • Don't care which init, EXCEPT (by curious on 2018-06-18 11:55:51 GMT from Germany)
... that it must be bug-free and that it should not cause shutdown times of 3 minutes (instead of about 5 seconds).
33 • @31 Deepin on Ubuntu base (by OstroL on 2018-06-18 12:25:29 GMT from Poland)
Yes, it is regularly updated. It is now on Bionic, but you can install it on Cosmic too. I've a feeling that the ppa is coming from Deepin team itself. I just tried it on Cosmic and I got 724MB at idle. Mine is a Pentium. The memory usage is quite nice for such a fully fledged DE!
34 • init Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-18 13:13:25 GMT from United States)
Ten choices for "...which init software is your favourite....", when most people have never heard of some--perhaps most--of these?
Most people HAVE heard that SysVinit is THE init system for Unix,and Linux; and has been for years; and that it has--and does--work admirably...for years on end.
What most people don't understand is the ease with which SysVinit can be maintained, IF it's ever necessary, versus the opposite situation with systemd.
This penchant for replacing a rock-solid part of the Unix/Linux system and replacing it with a much more complex alternative simply for the sake of replacement is part of the problem which exists with Linux in general ( e.g., over eight HUNDRED distros in your database).
How about a simple poll-- "Do you prefer 'SysVinit', or 'systemd' ."
At the very least, this might get people to seriously educate themselves to the differences.
35 • Systemd (by Systemd on 2018-06-18 13:17:04 GMT from Portugal)
Plenty bigger issues to “solve” in desktop Linux than system d for distraction.
36 • One of the more interesting weeks (by Barnabyh on 2018-06-18 14:02:59 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the review. I have not tried Devuan yet so was wondering. Sounds like Devuan and Flatpak would be a good alternative for when a full, fresh Slackware install is too much and one wants Xfce. Bit like Salix, minus the convenient tools to add codecs etc. And of course a different base if that matters.
Also, thanks for the primer on pkgsource. I had heard of it but had not explored yet how it would fare in comparison.
37 • 7 • Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0.0 ascii? for the Raspberry Pi (by Tux_Raider on 2018-0 (by mvdvarrier on 2018-06-18 14:04:23 GMT from India)
Rasbian with the default install is consuming 25% of the CPU just doing nothing,
I also have such an experience with Raspbian. With the help of top command it has been known that the cpu cycles are consumed by some python processes. when I killed python , the cpu consumption floored to zero. I cannot under stand what is happening. If the python is not terminated , it is continuing with no ending.
38 • Opinion Poll (by Fantomas on 2018-06-18 09:28:50 GMT from United Kingdom)
Right now I am using /SysV init/ and I enjoy it, so I voted for this one. Also another one that I would love to see more is /OpenRC/ Am not aware of any decent usable Distro that uses OpenRC. As of today Jun.2018 I am forced to use /systemd/ by design on other Distros that I use, and I dislike it - always have - always will. Also I wish lots of Success for the Devuan Linux Team. I have tried it long time ago and it did not detect other Distros on the HDD, wiping everything and the Software was very Old, making it desirable to run off-line perhaps. Other than that it was very stable. I did not have the time to test the /devuan_ascii_2.0.0 from 2018-Jun-06/ Thank you.
39 • 7 • Devuan GNU+Linux 2.0.0 ascii? for the Raspberry Pi (by Tux_Raider on 2018-0 (by mvdvarrier on 2018-06-18 14:05:10 GMT from India)
Rasbian with the default install is consuming 25% of the CPU just doing nothing,
I also have such an experience with Raspbian. With the help of top command it has been known that the cpu cycles are consumed by some python processes. when I killed python , the cpu consumption floored to zero. I cannot under stand what is happening. If the python is not terminated , it is continuing with no ending.
40 • OpenRC (by bison on 2018-06-18 14:26:21 GMT from United States)
I voted OpenRC. Of all the modern alternatives to systemd it seems to have the most traction, and it doesn't interfere with SysV init.
If there were a mainstream distro based on Debian and/or Ubuntu that used OpenRC, I would probably switch to that distro.
41 • systemd (by nobody-important on 2018-06-18 14:55:57 GMT from Canada)
systemd gave us log files that cannot be read with a simple text editor and must be viewed via a translator of some sort, complicating the debugging of log files.
The other problem, as noted by Mathew from Canada, is that systemd is growing day-by-day, invading other areas of responsibility.
I was sorry to see Linux Mint accept systemd. Good thing we have Devuan, Puppy Linux, and a few others which remain systemd-free.
Kudos to Distrowatch for allowing for the search of distributions "Not systemd."
42 • systemd (by Voila Violates on 2018-06-18 15:23:11 GMT from Canada)
@ # 27
Really, it is just another version of "Windows is better than Mac is better than Linux" garbage.
Windows and Mac are commercial implementation where as all developer has to bow a strong ring leader before stuffing nasty stuff into it. Where as Linux swings like a pendulum where every single distro's goal is different.
@ # 41
"systemd gave us log files that cannot be read with a simple text editor and must be viewed via a translator of some sort, complicating the debugging of log files."
Well, then, systemd definitely violates one (or may be more) rule(s) of The Basic Foundation of Linux". all log must be plain.txt and must be human readable was one of the transparency goal in promoting linux. Anyway Linux tree is over grown in multi-dimensions without any control.
@ # 13
"I've done almost all of the steps in the Linux From Scratch (LSF) document. Maybe LFS is the way I should be going, but I would like to try Devuan as it seems closest to the Linux desktop that want to be running."
That is only the best way to get what exactly you want from Linux.
43 • Init systems (by bigbenaugust on 2018-06-18 15:24:12 GMT from United States)
I run MX on most of my machines. While Debian-based, it uses sysvinit for the system init and systemd-logind for user sessions only. An interesting bit of trickery. But I may have to install Devuan again somewhere now that 2.0 has gone gold.
Having lived through the sysvinit-to-binary-init transition with Solaris back in the day, it can be done without too much pain and suffering. But the continual systemd land grab and the attitudes involved there are not necessarily the right way to go about it.
44 • init systems (by Spanky on 2018-06-18 15:25:55 GMT from United States)
I didn't vote, because you forgot the "Anything but systemd" option. Try and watch it, next time.
I don't much care which init system I use, as long as it works and doesn't try to take over everything else on the system. That's where systemd fails, IMO. On new releases, I usually have to debug some new issue I shouldn't have to debug, and its usually systemd related. I have had to do 'the trick' to get syslogs working again, and have had to replace the resolver just to get internet access. I just wanna do MY work, guys. If I want to do Linux development, I'LL give YOU a call.
To answer your question: I've used SysV, OpenRC, and runit, and like them all. In general, though, I don't care. I don't care if it takes 29 seconds or 32 seconds to boot the system. If systemd just initted the system - and worked - I wouldn't be posting this.
45 • init Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-18 15:42:14 GMT from United States)
@35--You need to read the very last sentence: "...At the very least, this might get people to seriously educate themselves to the differences.", It always helps to know the subject.
@34: "...and replacing it with a much more complex alternative simply for the sake of replacement is part of the problem..." IS "...the [the major] plenty bigger issues..." (@35) to which you refer.
A good example, from @41:
"...systemd gave us log files that cannot be read with a simple text editor and must be viewed via a translator of some sort, complicating the debugging of log files.
"The other problem, as noted by Mathew from Canada, is that systemd is growing day-by-day, invading other areas of responsibility...."
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."--Leonardo da Vinci
46 • Init poll (by David on 2018-06-18 15:53:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm another one who wanted a "who cares?" option! In 20 years I've only had to adjust the init system twice, once with System V, once with systemd. Neither was particularly difficult, once I'd found an on-line guide.
If systemd is really the disaster that some people claim, then I'd expect SUSE to try poaching some RHEL customers by avoiding it! To judge from the interminable denunciations at LinuxQuestions, the objectors are the usual anti-business ideologues and conspiracy theorists.
47 • @13 Re AMD64 (by Rev_Don on 2018-06-18 15:57:49 GMT from United States)
"I understand that amd64 means it will also run 64-bit on Intel chips, that's not confusing to anyone else?"
Not at all, but then I've been working with computers since the 1970s. AMD created the 64bit extension set that is used on x86 processors so they named it AMD64. Intel copied it to integrate into their processors and called it X86_64, but most people still refer to it as AMD64.
48 • Devuan Review, Summit's OS, Init Poll (by cykodrone on 2018-06-18 16:04:08 GMT from Canada)
I've been running Devuan since it's since it's very first beta release after being estranged from Debian stable. While the review was fine, Devuan is not trying to be some glossy user friendly top of the DW charts OS, it's written and maintained by developers and systems admins, these people are used to white characters rushing by on black screens. Debian was (don't know about now) also much like Devuan, a bare bones DYI, roll up your sleeves, scrape some knuckles and get your elbows dirty OS. My systemd free alternative and second (backup) OS on my machine is PCLinuxOS, if somebody wants glossy and more user friendly, that may be a better choice. A bit more fragile than rock solid (like diamond solid) Devuan but a great alternative choice none the less, PCLOS has better multimedia and web browser support anyway.
Summit is running systemd? Is that wise, being buggy spyware and all.
Ha, the init poll results pretty much mirrors an actual election, the anti crowd split the vote so the 'hold your nose' candidate could run away with the win. I use the default init in Devuan but voted OpenRC, it seems to be the most sensible and more functional alternative to systemd.
49 • Who cares? I do (by CS on 2018-06-18 17:45:19 GMT from United States)
I can certainly respect the "who cares" point of view from a user perspective.
As someone who needs to ship software to end users, and said software needs to get started and stay that way, systemd has made things far simpler and more reliable. No more "nohup tricks", no more custom watchdogs, many dirty hacks the init system forced are gone forever. I think we can all appreciate that.
50 • logs (by dmacleo on 2018-06-18 18:41:16 GMT from United States)
#41
this is my issue. with web panels I run directadmin) and webserver configs (nginx php-fpm) the init logs were easier for me to read.
now that may be experience issue however I could always find info I needed asap while with systemd I cannot.
learning curve?
maybe.
but still, is harder on me with centos 7.x than 6.x
51 • init.. and suse15 rejected (by Jordan on 2018-06-18 19:43:55 GMT from United States)
@5 "OS2 user," lmao. Hey.. you should have got another monitor. And mouse. Etc. Just kidding, but you cannot find a good distro so yes you should mess with linux and reading in here and posting in here may be frustrating because we do find and use fine distros for years on end. Hello. Again. ;)
The init poll seem lacking in the "no preference" response not being there. I have no preference, but did vote for Sys V as the one on this distro.
Was a non-systemd freak for a while. Read more. Now don't care.
52 • @24 Runit (by Jyrki on 2018-06-18 21:08:48 GMT from Czech Republic)
Have a look at Artix. They offer OpenRC, runit and S6 as inits. They released runit-base iso recently. After some birth related problems that appeared after they started the distro it seems to be stable for some time now. Also seems like their infrastructure is now also in place and they can concentrate on the distro itself. And they are making pretty impressive job. And one have pacman and AUR available.
53 • poll (by a on 2018-06-18 21:14:26 GMT from France)
I would have answered "Anything that’s not systemd" if it was an option.
What Arch had before systemd was fine. OpenRC on Gentoo is ok, though confusing because there are several ways to do the same things. I don’t have enough experience with other init software to know which one is the best.
54 • Devuan & Systemd (by RoestVrijStaal on 2018-06-18 22:37:06 GMT from Netherlands)
"but I tend to prefer distributions where it feels like the parts are fitted together to create a unified experience. "
Then you'll love Systemd, where every feature is within a big blackboxy blob.
___
Systemd isn't bad -per se-.
The intention of Systemd is still vague for me. It's developers didn't tell systemd's advantages in the KISS way.
Each interaction requires a hard-to-remember command (and parameters) which you'll always make a typo with systemcontrold, no wayd systemctrl, no wait sysctrl, ffffffuuuuu.
Also the documentation isn't archievement-oriented written. It's written as what each command and parameter can do. Too much information to read which i don't need at the time when I'm seeking for a solution!
Another thing is that developers of systemd take each criticism to systemd as a personal attack.
I'm using a distro with systemd, but that's because non-systemd require more work to get things working and keeping stable.. A Mint-like distro with OpenRC or runit instead of Systemd would be nice.
55 • @54 RE A Mint-like distro with OpenRC or runit instead of Systemd would be nice (by dxr on 2018-06-18 23:49:40 GMT from United States)
MX linux may be worthy of a try. Not openrc; sysvinit, but very polished and "mint-like" if you prefer.
I have found devuan with openrc (an option in the install process) to be as stable as it gets, and things working out of the box.
Your systemd comments are are well taken, agree.
56 • Devuan & Debian (by Bushpilot on 2018-06-19 00:19:06 GMT from Canada)
I had trouble with Devuan live install, however the xfce version install went well as it is virtually a Debian installer. Had to select desktop (xfce etc) during install. Everything is working well. The only negatives I have is that i could not find a way to get it to auto-login. Tried lightdm but that didn't work, and no virtualbox is available so far, otherwise it is a stellar performer and seems to be as stable as Debian 9.
Devuan has come a long way since it's developers broke with systemd. Time will tell if it will become a popular distro.
57 • Devuan (by StephenC on 2018-06-19 00:50:04 GMT from United States)
I guess the reviewer hasn't installed Debian 9 with XFCE before? The comments regarding installation and application choices, lack of volume control on the desktop, etc. applies equally to a default Debian 9 with XFCE.
Just for kicks I downloaded and installed Devuan following my "recipe" for Debian 9. The only real difference that I experienced during installation was that I didn't realize slim is the expected default DM. So by installing lightlocker, it caused lightdm to be setup and in turn caused an extra step in shutdown. Other than artwork, Wicd instead of Network Manager is essentially the only visible difference.
Nice - Debian 9 without systemd. Same installation process, same XFCE setup, (almost) the same applications... I may switch full-time.
58 • Non systemd (SysV) Linux Distros (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-19 01:00:32 GMT from Canada)
DW search tool offers more than 20 searches for "Not systemd" and "SysV" each. Some are good worth give it a live-try like
1. Linux Mint (2) ---> might be systemd.
2. MX Linux (7)
3. PCLinuxOS (20)
4. Puppy Linux (23)
5. Slackware Linux (30)
6. Devuan GNU+Linux (33)
7. Redcore Linux (41)
8. Absolute Linux (61)
9. Calculate Linux (65)
10. NuTyX (72)
11. AUSTRUMI (84)
12. VectorLinux (96)
The search result list is way long.
First one Linux Mint might be with systemd.
Apart from that, I have a good experience with the rest of all.
59 • Devuan Review Install Issues (by dxr on 2018-06-19 01:40:57 GMT from United States)
I have to agree with @57, my first thought was "is this any different from a typical Debian install"?
I didnt at all feel the install process was "longer installation process I have gone through to date" ("longest"?). My experience with the install process I used (on 3 separate PCs) was that the install asked the questions needed to properly perform the install. I cant think of any questions to remove and still get the install proper, for myself and others not in the US.
There are 2 points that Jesse mentions during install that I didnt encounter at all during my installs:
1) "First, we are asked for the root password, which is available in the release notes file. Then we are shown a screen warning us the installer's windows may not fit on small screens (or display properly in a virtual machine) and, in that case, we should use the text installer. Then I was warned that the grub-pc package was missing and might need to be installed manually, though the reason for this was unclear."
2) "and then I was asked an unusual question. I was shown a screen with three options, with the first being to copy files to a /target directory and install the GRUB boot loader packages. The second was to open a chroot environment to perform custom actions. The third was to "continue" without installing a boot loader. I took the "copy files" option, half expecting it to fail since I'd been warned the grub-pc package was missing, but the installer accepted my choice and moved on."
I did not encounter the above issues and I dont recall having to "toggle" anything on the main install display; my install was what I would describe as serially.
The "cryptic" list of international locales are of course for our fellow non-English speaking users. Perhaps a human readable language-specific (font) display would be better, but does any other distro provide this?
I think the overall Devuan review was accurate, but the install part of the review is far from my personal experience.
60 • Devuan 2 vs Debian 9 (by Jesse on 2018-06-19 01:50:25 GMT from Canada)
@57: "I guess the reviewer hasn't installed Debian 9 with XFCE before? The comments regarding installation and application choices, lack of volume control on the desktop, etc. applies equally to a default Debian 9 with XFCE."
1. The install process for Debian and Devuan are quite a bit different.
2. You may be right about volume controls in Xfce, but If you go back and look at my review of Debian 9 from last year you will see I installed MATE instead of Xfce, but the volume control is very much present. in that environment. It should be present in all desktop options.
@59: "I think the overall Devuan review was accurate, but the install part of the review is far from my personal experience."
You probably used a different install method. As I pointed out in the review there are several image options. I went with the one recommended in the release notes (the live disc). If you used an alternative method your install experience would be quite a bit different.
61 • Devuan Installation on HDD (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-19 02:27:02 GMT from Canada)
Devuan Installer Media and Devuan Live follows different installation methods. Devuan Live uses refracta installer to copy live-running system to HDD, installs grub and modifies fstab. Where as Devuan Installation Media follows d-i debian installer.
If anyone considering Devuan HDD installation should preferably use Installer disks CD/DVD, not live medium.
REFRACTA-INSTALLER REMINDS OF REFRACTA LINUX IS ALSO DEVUAN NON-SYSTEMD DERIVATIVE WORTH TRYING!!!
62 • Linux init software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-19 03:48:05 GMT from United States)
For those who want to know more about this subject, a somewhat-introductory article can be found here, at "The Register"--
"Devuan Ships Second Stable Cut of Its systemd-free Linux--
Open source luminary and former Debian leader Bruce Perens gives it a big thumbs up."
By Richard Chirgwin 12 Jun 2018 at 02:57
63 • Devuan etc/systemd (by Gary W on 2018-06-19 04:53:22 GMT from Australia)
@61 Sure, they are worth trying, but are they worth keeping? Software is rather old. I installed Devuan with MATE (to investigate hidpi features for my newest hardware). Current MATE is 1.20, the just-released Devuan provided 1.16 which is nearly 2 years old.
As for systemd, I see it as a solution in search of a problem. Last time I looked, the Red Hat support database had 26 pages of "enhancements" and "errata" for systemd; many people would say "buggy and incomplete". For the record, I'm using MX, looking at PCLinuxOS MATE (1.20).
64 • Devuan etc/systemd (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-19 06:21:05 GMT from Canada)
@ # 63
"Sure, they are worth trying, but are they worth keeping?"
When it comes to Linux even The GOD or a devil himself might be confused with thousands of distros, many different flavours, variety of different bundled-wares without underwear. LOL!!!
I change more than 7 distros in a week.
"For the record, I'm using MX, looking at PCLinuxOS MATE (1.20)."
I do not care much about systemd, SysV or OpenRC. I am not always fond of latest versions like Mate 1.20 or Mate 1.16. Probably I would not able to feel and tell the differences between versions 1.9 and 0.9 or whatever. The version numbers were neither been my priorities nor preferences. I am happy as long as I get functionality that I want and picks the hardware what I have. I do not have latest hardware too, so, sometimes I have to compromise while trying new releases.
65 • Devuan and systemD (by denPes on 2018-06-19 08:44:06 GMT from Belgium)
I Understand Jesse's angle with the review on Devuan. And his conclusion is right. This is not for newbies who want a full desktop out-of-the-box. However some more attention to the strong points of Devuan would have been fair. When using the installation disk, Devuan has just a good installer. Not as easy as the mainstream ubuntu's and Suse's and so on, but more for those who already did a few installs of linux.
I've used the netinstaller of Devuan. Very easy to use, if you know debian. A nice touch was the cli productive set (selection of cli apps like tmux etc) in the installer that could be installed if for example you wanted to start of without X first. The installation was very fast. There were a few quirks, not related specifically to Devuan, with root and the encrypted filesystem. (not cleanly unmount and 30 seconds wait time, which I could solve and were related to crypttools and the kernel.)
After that everything was just an "apt install" away. Performance is great. And it feels very clean. I'm very thankful for the skilled Devuan developers that they have delivered a systemD free alternative, and stick to the KISS principle.
I'm in the target audiance for Devuan. I don't like an init system like systemD that can not be controlled with bash/vi/nano, but requires specific tools to be controlled. I also don't like an init system that becomes a dependency of more and more programs/WM's, and every years takes control over more and more of the system. This makes it hard to avoid and not easy to replace. Which in my opinion is not in line with KISS and free software.
Devuan is clean, fast, has a wealth of software (thanks to debian), and it's a stable productive base for those who actually use the gnu system, instead of switching every couple of weeks/months to have the latest "greatest". After years of using Slackware, I felt for the ease of use in Devuan, and I like it a lot.
66 • List of Non-systemd (SysV) Linux Distros (by R. Cain on 2018-06-19 13:51:24 GMT from United States)
@ 58--
Number 1 on your list--MINT Linux--IS DEFINITELY a "systemd distribution".
I know you said,at the end of your informative and excellent post, that "...First one Linux Mint might be with systemd...". This is to confirm that you are correct.
Thank you very much.
67 • Init system... (by OstroL on 2018-06-19 13:57:34 GMT from Poland)
Init system? Well, a system that would boot quickly and keep the laptop working, until I put it off. Doesn't matter what it is named, sysD or sysV or whatnot. Actually, what might be the init system of Windows 10? Nothing breaks like in those days...
68 • Winchester (by RunIt - Void / SysV PCLOS on 2018-06-19 14:14:19 GMT from United States)
Void Linux is very surprisingly low on the popularity list. 110 right now. It should be much higher,in the top ten at least,if you ask me. I installed it (Void XFCE) about a month ago and have been very pleased.
RunIt gets the Void system booted up in about 22 seconds. Just once I had no mouse pointer control and had to reboot. That's a great trade-off for no systemD if it only happens 2 percent of the time.
Alpine Linux XFCE is in a similar category but with BusyBox init instead for an init system.
I have actually had more problems with systemD than with any other init system. Usually in Arch or Arch-based distributions. "A start job is running" or "A stop job is running". 1 minute and 30 seconds. Wait. Not really any problems with openSUSE or Fedora systemD start-up or shutdown. Although .... That's not even taking into account all of the other drawbacks of systemD.
As far as posts # 64 and # 65 go,I would look into PClinuxOS LXDE.
" Devuan is clean, fast, has a wealth of software (thanks to debian), and it's a stable productive base for those who actually use the gnu system, instead of switching every couple of weeks/months to have the latest "greatest". After years of using Slackware, I felt for the ease of use in Devuan, and I like it a lot. "
PClinuxOS LXDE fits this description as well.
I use PClinuxOS Trinity but,it takes time to customize Trinity to make it look,feel,and function as though it is not from 10 to 15 years in the past. If you don't have the time to customize Trinity,LXDE takes much less time to customize to a modern look and feel.
69 • Behavior of init software on Linux distros (by Christian Crispino on 2018-06-19 14:51:27 GMT from Italy)
I try one of the most plural and customizable Linux distro, Arch Linux, with systemd, runit and OpenRC.
Systemd often spends several minutes to kill some processes before system halts, its project is too sectarian because it works regardless of UNIX and POSIX nature of Linux, and the future of this init is obscure considering a migration from monolithical to microkernel (GNU Hurd and Google Zircon projects).
Runit includes a good supervision service, but it lacks the full support of some software services such as NetworkManager and cups.
OpenRC is a portable init and a well-done compromise between tradition and modernity, it works on top of SysV and it's rock stable.
I also try Obarun with s6, its working principle is similar to runit and the current limitations are nearly the same; interesting if it can be installed in an old x86 hardware.
Devuan and Artix are some good distros to try OpenRC without spending hours to install sourcepkgs, but they include by default elogind and other GNOME-bage frills and bloats dears to Red Hat; for this reason I switch to Parabola OpenRC with Arch repos and AUR support.
70 • Interesting Devuan derivatives (by Bobbin on 2018-06-19 14:57:41 GMT from South Africa)
I think the reviewer should have examined the larger Devuan ecosystem, which includes interesting derivatives such as:
* Heads (tor-based privacy OS, like Tails, but without systemd);
* Good Life Linux: Devuan + LXDE, or Openbox, or Xfce;
* MiyoLinux (Miyo=Make It Your Own): Devuan + Openbox, or Awesome, or i3 (despite being minimalist this is one of the most stylish distros I've seen);
* Crowz: 64-bit Devuan+Fluxbox, or Openbox, or Jwm;
*Fluxuan: Devuan+Fluxbox
*Star: platform to build your own distro.
Good Life; Miyo and Fluxuan are all minimalist distros aimed at making older machines run efficiently and so that users can "make their system into what they need without any additional bloat to remove".
For more Devuan derivatives go here: https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros
71 • @ 68 Winchester - your stop job... (by OstroL on 2018-06-19 15:16:18 GMT from Poland)
>> I have actually had more problems with systemD than with any other init system. Usually in Arch or Arch-based distributions. "A start job is running" or "A stop job is running". 1 minute and 30 seconds.<<
It is not a problem of your init software, but your grub. It is looking for your swap partition. Check your fstab. Your sawp partition has a wrong UUID.
72 • Colors (by Carney3 on 2018-06-19 15:37:14 GMT from United States)
Going by the screenshots, Devuan's default color scheme is so subdued it almost looks black-and-white (or grayscale). Reminds me of NeXTStep, the original Macintosh, or the early grayscale laptops.
73 • Init Systems (by Bruce Neale on 2018-06-19 15:55:20 GMT from Germany)
My preferred distro for daily use has been Mx Linux, to avoid systemd.
Linux Mint 17,3 has been my second preferred distro, which is the last Mint LTS that was systemd free. Mint LMDE were also systemd free.
For a triple boot option I also install Salix 14,2.
I am only using old 32 bit hardware, because the 64 bit hardware has already died, or I couldn't install any 64 bit distros at the time I tried.
Old T series Thinkpads seem to work much quicker with any linux distro that installs, compared to the Windows options.
best regards
Bruce
74 • Non SystemD (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-19 19:00:52 GMT from Canada)
If you consider AntiX/MX Family, Devuan Family, Puppy and it's tons of pup-lets, PCLinuxOS, Arch Family, Gentoo Family and Slackware Family, there are tons of thousands choices of endless supply of non-systemd distributions for init lovers.
75 • inits good except for a flaw (by init hugs on 2018-06-19 23:14:18 GMT from Australia)
Like others have spoke, which init system is included in a distro makes no nevermind. However, all init systems have the same single point of weakness (that mobile phone makers have already realized): They employ a login screen, that uses a single password. This is a potential security risk, as every hacker knows that when you turn on your computer you must type in a password (hence you can be observed doing so); as well as the fact that the network is brought up just before the login prompt (with doubts about wireless devices on/off status, it offers a potential opportunity for sniffing login details).
So something other than a single password login system is required by modern space-age init systems.
76 • Linux init Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-19 23:31:12 GMT from United States)
My two main computers are very good machines with almost identical characteristics-- a Lenovo T420 and a T430. I installed MInt Linux 17.3 on the 420 three years ago, and Mint 18.2 on the T430 1½ years ago. I never (and I do mean 'never') had a problem with Mint 17.3. Because of occasional 'inconsistencies' in my machine and as reported by others in the 'forums', the 18.2 version has been replaced by ('reverted back to') Mint 17.3 also. It works--and has since 'reversion'--flawlessly.
I will be the first to admit that there is nothing scientific about this example except for the extreme similarity in the machines. This fable is for informational purposes only, and should be viewed as such
Do not read anything into the fact that all hardware is identical except for the faster processor in the T430 (and that the keyboards are slightly different).
Do not read anything into the fact that Linux Mint 17.3 does not use systemd, while Mint 18.2 DOES use systemd.
Just as @73, because of the ALL the very good reports AND lack of systemd, I am preparing to evaluate MX-17.1 for use as my next-generation 'go-to' Linux distribution (if one follows DistroWatch's '7-Day Statistics', MX-17.1 Linux is now #4 in the rankings).
77 • Devuan Ascii and Fluxuan (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-20 01:03:30 GMT from Canada)
Just tried Devuan Ascii and Fluxuan, performed well, seems OK.
However Fluxuan misses a lot in main menu, there many packages in distro but not in menu need to added manually. performance is ok.
Thanks to the developers of Devuan and Fluxuan.
78 • Just a quick note... (by Lennart on 2018-06-20 04:20:23 GMT from United States)
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux,
is in fact, systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux.
Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component
of a fully functioning systemd system made useful by the systemd init, bootloader and vital office suite comprising a full OS as defined by Lennart Poettering.
Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd system every day,
without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd
which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are
not aware that it is basically the systemd system, developed by the Freedesktop.org Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a
part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system
that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run.
The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself;
it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is
normally used in combination with the systemd operating system: the whole system
is basically systemd with Linux added, or systemd/Linux. All the so-called "Linux"
distributions are really distributions of systemd/Linux.
79 • Post # 71 - SWAP Partition is Correct UUID (by Winchester on 2018-06-20 04:26:20 GMT from United States)
My SWAP partition's UUID is correct in /etc/fstab. SWAP is "on" when I launch GParted.
Furthermore,it only happens with systemD so,I would definitely consider it an init software problem.
Grub entries are correct.
If any of this were the actual cause,it would happen all of the time but,it only happens once in a while. Usually when I am in a rush to leave the house to go to work and I end up wasting 1:30 waiting to make sure the system does end up powering off.
80 • @78; where is my popcorn? (by Frederic Bezies on 2018-06-20 05:20:39 GMT from France)
Systemd/linux ? No more gcc and glibc components? Always the same bag of nonsensense.
So, Linux based OS must be named by there init system?
Gentoo = OpenRC/Linux
Void = Runit/Linux
Slackware = sysVinit/Linux
And so on?
I know, I stepped on a troll. But when I read such comment, I know I have to buy popcorn and soda. This init "war" is still going on for the great pleasure of Apple and Microsoft.
Did Free Software world need an enemy? No. It is inside itself. The worst you can imagine; free software users.
81 • @71 typical reply of systemd supporters (by curious on 2018-06-20 08:04:19 GMT from Germany)
To paraphrase: it can't be systemd's fault, it must be something else.
No, no, no! If it ONLY happens with distros using systemd and not with those using other init software, then it IS a systemd problem.
Therefore my preferred init software is ANY of SysV init, OpenRC, runit or Upstart (don't know any of the others except systemd). It would make sense to combine the votes for these...
82 • @ 81 grub's 1:30 minute probem (by OstroL on 2018-06-20 08:21:26 GMT from Poland)
I don't care two hoots about what init system that's there in the distro, as far as it boots and keep on working.
Regarding the problem of "1:30 minute," it had happened to my distros, when a grub update was done or when a new distro was installed. After certain amount of searching, I know that grub is not putting the correct UUID of the swap partition in. Say, you have few distros installed, and the last distro had replaced the grub with its own. Now you try to boot into another distro on your list, but it goes on for 1:30 minute search and then boot in. Check that distro's fstab, and you'd see that swap UUID is wrong. A standard problem with grub...and SysD, but mostly grub's.
83 • @82 totally different problem (by curious on 2018-06-20 09:52:43 GMT from Germany)
The excessive systemd shutdown delays have nothing to do with what you describe.
The problem even occurs with a completely new install in a VM (virtual box), with NO other distros, no partitions for other distros, no grub replacements etc.
And there is NO problem with stating up, only with shutting down. So it is NOT grub looking for anything.
84 • @83 (by OstroL on 2018-06-20 10:27:54 GMT from Poland)
Anyway, check what grub is actually looking for to open, or shut.
Like I said, I don't give 2 hoots what the init system is, sysV or sysD or whatnot, as far as it would do its work correctly. Without the booting app, you can't boot, whatever the init system your distro have. The booting app has its own quirks, and goes on searching for partitions to mount; the root and the swap, the basic two. In those days, both of them had to be found and mounted to get the distro booted. Nowadays, even if it won't find swap, it'd still boot, ignoring swap, but it takes 1:30 minutes minimum. Just check your fstab.
Btw, I didn't have any problems with SysV or Upstart or whatever that was there in the given distro. Few times I had this "1:30 minutes searching a partition to mount" and once I know the solution, the swap UUID matter, I never get problems any more. I check the fstab of all partitions on swap's UUID, if I install a distro anew. It is grub giving trouble.
85 • Devuan's 5 Desktop Environments (by Bobbin on 2018-06-20 13:07:09 GMT from South Africa)
Reviewer omitted to mention that user can select from these five desktop environments when installing from the Devuan installer-iso (https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/):
* XFCE,
* Cinnamon,
* KDE,
* LXQT,
* MATE
Other desktop environments are available post-install or by using Devuan derivatives (https://devuan.org/os/ ; https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros).
86 • @75 Systemd's Networking Capabilities (by cykodrone on 2018-06-20 14:20:43 GMT from Canada)
I am currently forced to piggyback on a friend's wifi, my two systemd-free OSes DO NOT start the wifi connection until AFTER the password and the GUI environment initializes. Not sure if I can say the same about a wired connection, but a secretive init with FULL control of your machine that can 'phone home' raises numerous red flags for me, especially since the developer has huge contracts with many of the 'alphabet' government agencies. I dumped my Android smartphone's carrier and took the sim card out a long time ago, its wifi is always OFF, I have to turn it on manually, it's now a $650 Solitaire player during bathroom breaks.
87 • @ # 70 70 • Interesting Devuan derivatives (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-20 15:20:39 GMT from Canada)
@ # 70 70 • Interesting Devuan derivatives
"Good Life; Miyo and Fluxuan are all minimalist distros aimed at making older machines run efficiently and so that users can "make their system into what they need without any additional bloat to remove"."
Just given Good Life, Miyo and Fluxuan a try. They are surprisingly minimal. Fluxuan has chrome browser. In Good Life and Miyo need to install one. All performed well-n-good and gonna pick one out of these three.
Thanks!!!
88 • Volume control on XFCE (devuan 2.0) (by SA on 2018-06-20 15:43:57 GMT from France)
Jesse said that there was no volume control "tray icon" in XFCE on devuan.
I had installed Devuan 2.0 with XFCE and added "Pulseaudio plugin" to the top panel, and it works.
But I needed to do one "quirky" thing: put the notification area to the bottom of the screen (xfce parameters), because volume notifications did *hide* the volume control widget all the time, if I did not do that.
89 • Devuan LXQt (by a on 2018-06-20 20:56:12 GMT from France)
@85 thanks, that’s interesting as LXQt is my preferred DE and Gentoo dropped all support for it in the past few months :(. I need to try Devuan again…
90 • Linux init Software (by DAP on 2018-06-21 00:37:46 GMT from United States)
For my use case, I can't see systemd as anything but a straight upgrade over most previous init systems. Things boot faster, the service model is cleaner and the modern distro world has all but entirely moved to it. If people want to use alternatives more power to them, but I'm certainly not going back.
91 • init system software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-21 03:20:22 GMT from United States)
Everyone needs to invest at least a minimal amount of time in understanding what this subject is all about. The least painful, and most eye-opening introduction can be found by simply typing “systemd” into your search engine, and then clicking on the “Wikipedia” option. It seems as though a lot of people have made very firm decisions without being in possession of all the facts and, in a lot of cases, without being in possession of any facts at all--only ill-formed and very personal opinions. The following is a VERY small sampling of what’s available at this site:
From Ted Ts’o, Linux kernel developer, primary developer and maintainer of e2fsprogs, and maintainer for the ext4 file system:
“...A realization that I recently came to while discussing the whole systemd controversy... is that a lot of the fear and uncertainty over systemd may not be so much about systemd, but the fear and loathing over radical changes that have been coming down the pike over the past few years, many of which have been not well documented, and worse, had some truly catastrophic design flaws that were extremely hard to fix...I think one of the reasons why this happens is because +Kay Sievers and +Lennart Poettering often have the same response style to criticisms as the +GNOME developers --- go away, you're clueless, we know better than you, and besides, we have commit privs and you don't, so go away...”,
...and from the Linux Kernel Mailing List(.org)--
"Linus Torvalds--Linux Kernel Mailing List, 2 April 2014.
Re:: Hide “debug” from /proc/cmdline--
“...Key (sic) [Sievers], I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the
code *you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the problems you cause...
...Greg [Kroah-Hartman, Linux kernel developer, maintainer, author, et. al.] - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed...But I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to not care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other projects to fix their project. Because I am *not* willing to take patches from people who don't clean up after their problems, and don't admit that it's their problem to fix...
...Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it.
None of this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me"
crap.
Linus”
********************************************
“Far more crucial than what we know or do not know is what we do not want to know."--Eric Hoffer
92 • systemd : An informative article on linux [dot] com (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-21 03:20:26 GMT from Canada)
Systemd Services: Monitoring Files and Directories
https://www[dot]linux[dot]com/blog/learn/intro-to-linux/2018/6/systemd-services-monitoring-files-and-directories
93 • syestemd may not boot and shutdown at all. (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-21 03:48:34 GMT from Canada)
It might be possible, not a bug that developers over concentrate on monitoring only and systemd will not boot or shutdown at all, or both.
94 • Preferred init software... (by P. McCartney on 2018-06-21 15:44:32 GMT from United States)
As far as init goes, I'm running FreeBSD... (mic drop)!
95 • SysV Preferred Because Systemd Is Broken By Design (by T. Mann on 2018-06-21 18:49:56 GMT from United States)
SysV can easily be setup to be much more reliable and predictable. Systemd is by design overly complex and therefore by design it is more likely to become unstable and could cause catastrophic failures and/or security breaches. This is NOT the way to run an operating system.
96 • Enough about systemd, I can NOT take anymore!!! (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-21 20:05:19 GMT from Canada)
None of this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me"
Guys enough of systemd, I can take it any more, it pains coz I remain buntu lovers for long time!
You can tell me anytime,
Nonsense that nobody can sense "I can sh*t wherever and whenever I want, others have to clean up after me"
And, my reply would be,
That you can NOT even clean-up your sh*t!
Why do others need to clean-up your sh*t?
You are worse than an animal, even my dog and cat have sense to cover it up theirs.
97 • Preferred init software... (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-21 20:16:08 GMT from Canada)
@ # 94 • Preferred init software...
As far as init goes, I'm running FreeBSD... (mic drop)!
Yeah, I can understand.
Alternatively, you can pick any SysV minimal distro of your choice, strip-out unwanted, spice-up with wanted, and keep and stay with forever. If wanna participate in olympic's marathon you should run on LFS way.
98 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-22 01:43:52 GMT from United States)
"...After all, when writing code is your passion, your job and your goal, you don't ever really finish, do you...
...The same can be said of the init systems in Linux, like systemd. In a nutshell, the system should start quickly and get into a working session. We had this in 2010 or so, with boot times down to mere 10 seconds using init. No flaws, no bugs. Even in the commercial sphere, working with init, I do not recall any major problems...
Then, suddenly...for the past five years, [we have] this unstable, half-baked, undebuggable nonsense...the backbone of most Linux distros. The invasive and pervasive nature of the systemd framework has also affected the stability of the user space, the very thing it should never have touched, and pretty much all problems with the quality of the Linux desktop nicely coincide with the introduction of systemd. The development continues, of course, and for no good reason than trying to reach the level of stability, maturity and functionality that we had half a decade ago. Someone landed themselves a lot of monthly pay checks by writing complex code to solve a problem that did not exist..."
(dedoimedo dot com; 'Modern Software Development is Cancer', 17 March, 2017)
99 • Devuan Experience (by Peter Besenbruch on 2018-06-22 04:46:46 GMT from United States)
I installed Devuan in a Virtualbox machine. To get integration working I installed build-essential, the appropriate kernel headers, and went to town. It worked fine. I installed using the text interface. It looked just like Debian's installer. I also "upgraded" a Debian Stretch desktop to Devuan ASCII. Shortest "upgrade" I have ever done. Devuan has simply "borrowed" the vast majority of Debian's packages. I re-enabled the deb-multimedia non-free repository to receive Flash updates.
Everything looks the same. The init system is different. SysV works a bit better in Devuan than it does in Debian. OpenRC also seems to work in my brief testing. Libsystemd0 is still in the system, linked to everything, directly, or indirectly. If you know Debian, you will know Devuan, and 95% of the packages will be bit for bit identical.
Issues in the bare metal desktop: Virtualbox direct from Oracle (version 51) won't load the vboxdrv kernel module automatically. Devuan has done a good job hosting its own Virtualbox packages, though (version 52), and they work.
100 • @ # 98 • init System Software (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-22 08:03:37 GMT from Canada)
@ # 98 • init System Software
"...The same can be said of the init systems in Linux, like systemd. In a nutshell, the system should start quickly and get into a working session. We had this in 2010 or so, with boot times down to mere 10 seconds using init. No flaws, no bugs. Even in the commercial sphere, working with init, I do not recall any major problems... "
My own LFS with SysV init boots like a charm just less than 10 seconds. Not a single boot or shutdown related problem. Some packages I have compile without applying patches, causes memory leaks sometimes. I have to re-compile them.
"Then, suddenly...for the past five years, [we have] this unstable, half-baked, undebuggable nonsense...the backbone of most Linux distros. The invasive and pervasive nature of the systemd framework has also affected the stability of the user space, the very thing it should never have touched, and pretty much all problems with the quality of the Linux desktop nicely coincide with the introduction of systemd. The development continues, of course, and for no good reason than trying to reach the level of stability, maturity and functionality that we had half a decade ago. Someone landed themselves a lot of monthly pay checks by writing complex code to solve a problem that did not exist..."
Somewhere in 2009 nearly a decade ago, open source community was plagued by the corporate agents in black tuxedo suits. Open Source Developers started dreaming about that one day they will also be in a black tuxedo suits. Reality is just opposite the corporate agents got filthy rich and Open Source Developers are left with holed pockets. In a recent example, open source developers who sweated hard to develop git-hub platform should at least have 1% minimum of the total officially declared deal for the take-over.
If you are not a direct employee, make sure you get way more than enough to extend your favors to BiG B's.
Anyway, these stories are never ending and more deeper than ocean.
I will leave up to the readers.
101 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-22 14:02:01 GMT from United States)
“...we’re going to talk about something that is clearly not progress. Systemd. Roughly 6 years ago, Systemd came to life as the new, event-based init mechanism, designed to replicate the old serialized System V [init]. Today, it is the reality in most distributions, for better or worse. Mostly the latter...”
“...The topic of my article today is to tell you a story of how I went about fixing a broken Fedora 24 system – powered by systemd of course, and why [the end] was one of pain and defeat...”
“... if you have performed system administration tasks on a Linux box in the old era and now need to do the same with Systemd, then you might be interested to know how much extra effort...you need to keep your systems healthy and going...”
"...At the end of the day, I had learned a few things [about] Systemd, but very little of any practical value. I had mostly uncovered various flaws in the design, which I’m sure can be easily self-justified. I had realized that Systemd is complex, difficult to use and read, and not very helpful in solving problems. Indeed, my Fedora box remained unbootable, and I was forced to rebuild the installation. I do not recall a single case where I was unable to fix a Linux box when it was still powered by... [SysV]init. I had worked on some really bad issues, but I was always able to recover. With Systemd, I had to concede defeat. The notion of events and timeouts is just completely wrong...”
“...We cannot stay in the past. We must change. Unfortunately, sometimes, future solutions fail to deliver, because they are trying to fix a problem that does not exist...System V and init are...not ready to be [relegated] to history, especially not when Systemd is the current proposed alternative. It simply does not have what it takes to be the superior functional and evolutionary replacement....”
“...It [systemd] is a change, but one that introduces a huge amount of energy into the environment, and it offers very little to no practical advantage over the previous implementation. This is true of many other recent changes in the Linux world...And that is the distinction that seems to have eluded the Linux world a lot recently. It is evident in the decline of popularity, stability and acceptance of Linux distributions, most likely because the focus is on re-inventing that which does not require any...”
“...As far as Systemd is concerned, I am concerned, because it is a technology that does not correlate to knowledge or experience, and it poses a great risk to the prosperity of Linux”
(‘Systemd – Progress Through Complexity’, dedoimedo dot com, 19 October, 2016)
*******************************************************************************
"We must not forget that the wheel is reinvented so often because it is a very good idea; I've learned to worry more about the soundness of ideas that were invented only once."
-- David L. Parnas (Why Software Jewels are Rare, IEEE Computer, 2/96).
102 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-22 15:39:30 GMT from United States)
"The word 'user' is the word used by the computer professional when they mean 'idiot'."
--Dave Barry
*************************************************************************************
Dave Barry--being far removed from the software business--almost got it right (come to think of it, he is an award-winning humorous journalist...not really THAT far removed from writing humorous software...). But WE know it should be correctly stated as
"The word 'user' is the word used by self-proclaimed and self-important computer 'professionals' when they mean 'idiot'."
103 • Ever increasing interdependency. (by jeff on 2018-06-22 18:53:56 GMT from United States)
Even if I did not have other concerns about systemd the ever increasing interdependency it brings into Linux is enough reason to reject it. There are no good reasons for some of the dependencies between completely unrelated applications and libraries.
If accepted and allowed to continue you will end up with 36,000 packages installed just so you can read Distrowatch and check your email.
104 • Linux World Words Dictionary (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-22 22:10:05 GMT from Canada)
# @ 102
"The word 'user' is the word used by the computer professional when they mean 'idiot'."
--Dave Barry
Another one,
Freedom means Slavery.
More know in the details, you might be inspired to re-invent the wheel one more time.
"We must not forget that the wheel is reinvented so often because it is a very good idea; I've learned to worry more about the soundness of ideas that were invented only once."
-- David L. Parnas (Why Software Jewels are Rare, IEEE Computer, 2/96).
I seen technology catastrophe is coming, can any one see it?
105 • System Monitoring (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-22 22:41:07 GMT from Canada)
I have been monitoring my own system with self-made scrips and binaries for a while and just shot three-to-four ducks down.
Amazingly cpu-fan which was running like a helicopter went absolutely silent.
106 • Networking is coming to compiler's code at root-level. (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-22 23:20:27 GMT from Canada)
Forget to mention about my discussion about future technology with one of Sr. Engineer in big corporation. According to him nasty networking is coming down to the roots of compiler's code.
Before you compile any code, probably it would like to call home first.
But, who cares?
Tech can go either way left or right, or, up or down.
it REALLY does NOT matters!!!
107 • It would not be... (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-23 00:46:41 GMT from Canada)
...._|If any distro that would might have delivered, I would not be running a marathon of LFS.
.._|If there would not be memory leaks, I would not be applying patches and re-compiling.
_|If system fan would not be hell-coptering, I would not be writing system-monitoring.
If there would not be bugs and failures, I would not be successful to get what I wanted.
In this world of heavy surveillance,
If you are a developer or a programmer, How can you trust the code written by someone else?
Have you ever wonder WHY and HOW?
There are three types, the first one reads and watches everything, but, fear to speak-out.
The REST is up to YOU!
108 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-23 03:00:44 GMT from United States)
"'Upgraded Ubuntu 18.04 Suddenly Boots Slowly? Read This", (20 June 2018; dedoimedo dot com)
..systemd is not a friendly thing - in fact, it makes system troubleshooting much more difficult than it should be, because it's a tool designed by someone who doesn't really do system troubleshooting. It's a dev thing. Classic, overcomplicated nonsense. Like weapons designed by bureaucrats....
...For instance, cleanup is referred to as vacuuming. Why? Why not use the old naming convention...? Perhaps these words sound nerdy and cool, but they are not meaningful in any sense. And then you have things like 'unit files' and 'targets'. What? Why? Just a small example of a much bigger, worrying phenomenon...
...This is more of a fascination with why Linux systems take an eternity to boot now when they worked so beautifully and elegantly under [SysV]init. The magic of complexity and pointless development. When you think about it, it's quite sad really...
109 • @ # 108 init Sytem Software (by Manny Ubuntu on 2018-06-23 04:28:01 GMT from Canada)
@ # 108
"Upgraded Ubuntu 18.04 Suddenly Boots Slowly?"
I am completely off the buntu business, as ubuntu remained successful to corrupt BIOS not only once, but twice. I never have any desire try any of buntus or it's derivatives.
"..systemd is not a friendly thing - in fact, ... Like weapons designed by bureaucrats...."
You said it all.
But, black tuxedo suited bureaucrats remained highly successful to get volunteered advocates without paying a single penny. These volunteer advocates jumps on their propaganda bandwagon with a wish they might have bread and butter at least. And some joined just b'coz of their likings of the name of the bandwagon. At the end of the show, they always do return empty stomach, and bureaucrats enjoys the partying with beauties and beer. These volunteer advocates never learned to ask to be paid for the service they rendered for the bureaucrats.
When I return in evening my dog gives me manly two leg hug and never allowed to surf until I fill-up the plate first. I have no words for these volunteer advocates.
110 • Weekly poll (by dragonmouth on 2018-06-23 13:24:54 GMT from United States)
Anything But Systemd.
Systemd is antithetical to the tenets of Linux of controlling the system with simple, human-readable text files. It is a supermassive black hole that devours anything that comes within its reach. Given free reign, it will become Linux.
111 • init System Software: KNOPPIX 8.0 (by R. Cain on 2018-06-23 15:58:12 GMT from United States)
"KNOPPIX 8.0 Die Antwort auf Systemd (German)". Archived from the original on June 13, 2018. Retrieved June 13, 2018.
"...Knoppix 'boot process is still running via Sys-V init with few bash scripts that start the system services efficiently sequentially or in parallel.
(The original German text: Knoppix' Startvorgang läuft nach wie vor per Sys-V-Init mit wenigen Bash-Skripten, welche die Systemdienste effizient sequenziell oder parallel starten.)"
[From 'References', #67, 'Wikipedia' (re 'systemd')]
112 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-23 19:24:10 GMT from United States)
@110--"Systemd is antithetical to the tenets of Linux".
True, and for this reason, and a lot of other reasons enumerated here and elsewhere by people who are imminently more qualified than I to weigh in on the subject, it seems that Linux will end up as two separate entities: that which uses systemd, and that which does not.
I had a hard time with the post of "Lennart", @78, and still do--I don't know whether this is a case of reverse psychology; whether this person fervently believes what he writes; or this is a joke. It finally occurred to me that what the person is writing is prophetic, no matter the motivation. Consider the following condensation--
“... What you're referring to as Linux is in fact, systemd/Linux...Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather...a fully functioning systemd...as defined by Lennart Poettering.
...Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd system every day...
the version of systemd...which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are...not aware that it is BASICALLY THE SYSTEMD SYSTEM...[emphasis added]
...There really is a Linux... Linux is...normally used in combination with the systemd operating system: the whole system...is basically systemd with Linux added, or systemd/Linux. All the so-called "Linux"..distributions ARE REALLY DISTRIBUTIONS OF SYSTEMD/LINUX." [emphasis added]
As Aesop said, "We are all too often given the means of our own destruction."
...but, left unsaid, is the fact that we do--most often--always have other choices. Sometimes very good other choices, at that...
113 • SysV (init) does really performs way better (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-23 22:49:33 GMT from Canada)
Just finished installation and customization by addition-and-removal of one of Devuan minimal derivative on very old pc to try. Surprisingly it is working like a charm where as in my prior trials with many systemd distro, which mostly failed to boot even. Other distros which picked these hardwares like charm were MX/Antix, KnoppixCD, PCLinuxOS, Nutyx, Puppy, and Vector. New version of calculate can not boot even and I could not find calculate old versions, and, same for PCLinuxOS.
Devuan and it's derivatives have risen right on time.
Thanks to the team, and developers of derivatives.
Last but not the least, BunCH of THANK$$$ to,
Jessie who reviewed Devuan here on DW.
114 • SystemD (by tired old man on 2018-06-24 08:10:46 GMT from Australia)
I understand the issue people have with SystemD, but why is it so prevalent across popular distros?
I especially don't understand why the "I Use Arch btw" memelords who act superior to everyone else use it as well if the alternatives are better? stockholm syndrome?
115 • @ # 114 • SystemD (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-24 14:29:09 GMT from Canada)
@ # 114 • SystemD
"I understand the issue people have with SystemD, but why is it so prevalent across popular distros?"
For personal use I would prefer SysV, As a corporate user, systemd might be offering the features that corporation wants. This might be the reason systemd is prevalent and popular among enterprise Linux.
I still do NOT have any bias for systemd at all.
"I especially don't understand why the "I Use Arch btw" memelords who act superior to everyone else use it as well if the alternatives are better? stockholm syndrome?"
You never know the features and modifications in new version releases. Arch is popular in rolling-releases. To know the things better one has to try it. Likewise, if I never try Ubuntu, how do I know it corrupts BIOSes. LoL !!!
My undeleted posts still surprise me.
116 • Systemd vs sysvinit General Features (by vern on 2018-06-24 15:45:55 GMT from United States)
Look under the "General Features" comparisons:
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html
117 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-24 16:29:38 GMT from United States)
From ZDNet, 6 October 2014, Stephen J. Vaughn-Nichols--"Lennart Poettering's Linus Torvalds rant"
[LP--Lennart Poettering; SJVN--Stephen J. Vauhghn-Nichols]
[LP]"...But what I find particularly appalling is the fact that he [Linus Torvalds] regularly defends this [attitude], and advertises this as an efficient way to run a community. (But it is not just Linus, it's a certain group of people around him who use the exact same style, some of which semi-publicly even phantasize [sic] about the best ways to, ... well, kill me)."
At this point, I think Poettering has gone off the rails. [SJVN]
[LP] "If Linux had success, then that certainly happened despite, not because of this [Torvald's] behavior. I am pretty sure the damage being done by this is quite obvious, it not only sours the tone in the Linux community, it is also teaches new contributors to adopt the same style, but that's only if it doesn't scare them away in the first place. In other words: A fish rots from the head down."
[SJVN] Sorry, I can't see this. Linux is, without a doubt, the most successful open-source project of all time. It runs everything from almost all supercomputers, the vast majority of Internet servers, most smartphones under the guise of Android, and it powers the cloud. If this is "rotting," all other projects could only wish to rot so well.
You can dislike Torvalds and his methods, but, like it or not, under Torvalds' sometimes rude direction, Linux has become perhaps the most important operating system in the world today."
118 • @ 117 (by OstroL on 2018-06-24 17:32:28 GMT from Poland)
"Linux is, without a doubt, the most successful open-source project of all time....most smartphones under the guise of Android,"
Actually, the most successful open source project is Android, whatever the guise... Android did something Linux couldn't do, toppled MS and became the most popular operating system of all!
119 • @118 Linux (by Rev_Don on 2018-06-24 17:50:55 GMT from United States)
Linux is a Kernel, not an operating system. Since it is used in Android as well as other operating systems that makes Linux more successful than Android. Android may be the most successful implementation of the Linux Kernel, it is not more successful than the actual Kernel.
120 • init System Software (by R. Cain on 2018-06-24 19:09:51 GMT from United States)
@114--
The answer to both your questions lies in the fact that these are two sides of the same coin: hubris, and hubris’ bedfellows: loss of inability to think critically, if at all; and laziness.
Debian was for years considered to be ‘the gold standard’ of Linux distributions; it was...WAS... the ‘gold standard’ which people who wanted to develop a new Linux version based their new version on, because of solid, no-nonsense decision-making and adherence to the core principles of UNIX and Linux (382 of the distributions listed on DistroWatch are based on Debian). No more. Debian has succumbed to the ‘millennial mindset’ that if it’s not new, then it must need fixing, ‘cause it can’t be much good; only the ‘newest stuff’ has any value (after 140 years, the gasoline engine is still the prime mover of most cars; even in the only new paradigm which makes any sense: the hybrid). Ubuntu, Knoppix, and many other very good--no; outstanding--Linux distributions of the earlier years based their distros on Debian. Debian is now into the process of discovering that it has lost its vaunted position because of its flawed systemd decision, and it’s probably too late for it to recover.
Why is it Debian/systemd so ‘popular’? Because of all the distros which based their decisions on “non-systemd-Debian”, and, because of a combination of inertia (laziness) and non-critical-thinking skills.
For an example, one has to look no further than Linux Mint. Mint’s very success was predicated on building on and correcting the problems of the new versions of Ubuntu, on which the new versions of Mint were based. (non-systemd) Mint 17.3 was acclaimed to be THE VERY BEST Linux distro going into 2017. Then the decision was made to slavishly follow whatever Ubuntu did, including using systemd (because Ubuntu is based on Debian), and Mint proceeded to have its forums and blogs filled with ‘irregularities’ of the new version 18. Mint then proceeded to drop out of first place on DistroWatch; a position it had enjoyed for years due to the hard work of correcting the flaws of the distribution on which it was based.
In DistroWatch’s ‘7-Day Average’, Mint is #2 (and VERY far away from #1), and was #1 for the longest time; Ubuntu is #5 (behind #4, non-systemd MX-17), and was #1 for the longest time.
The results of Debian’s decision to switch to systemd are becoming readily apparent; these results will only increase, resulting in Debian's loss of credibility, and relevance.
121 • init System Software (by anticapitalista on 2018-06-24 20:16:07 GMT from Greece)
@120 - nice try, but the reality is (IMO unfortunately) the opposite.
3 month DW ranking
Top 10, all bar MX Linux default to systemd.
122 • @ 119 Rev_Don (by OstroL on 2018-06-24 21:01:32 GMT from Poland)
Linux is a Kernel, not an operating system."
I know all that. We just say we are using Linux, when we use a Linux distro.
We say, we are using tires for the car to run on, but not air.
123 • @ # 121 @ # 120 (by Manny Moore on 2018-06-24 22:58:15 GMT from Canada)
@ # 121 • init System Software
"Top 10, all bar MX Linux default to systemd."
with this announcement, SysV list shrinks to:
3. PCLinuxOS (20)
4. Puppy Linux (23)
5. Slackware Linux (30)
6. Devuan GNU+Linux (33)
7. Redcore Linux (41)
8. Absolute Linux (61)
9. Calculate Linux (65)
10. NuTyX (72)
11. AUSTRUMI (84)
12. VectorLinux (96)
Let us see how many of above still stand and survives oligarchies twisted-cyclone in future to come. And, comes out as a WiNNER or a HeRO.
@ # 120 • init System Software
[LP]"...But what I find particularly appalling is the fact that he [Linus Torvalds] regularly defends this [attitude], and advertises this as an efficient way to run a community. (But it is not just Linus, it's a certain group of people around him who use the exact same style, some of which semi-publicly even phantasize [sic] about the best ways to, ... well, kill me)."
"Debian has succumbed to the ‘millennial mindset’ "
Debian is also surrounded and backed by some other oligarchies same as Linux Foundation.
Debian has chosen it's destiny by itself.
You will get a clear picture about puppet-masters and puppets if you look at GCC steering committee members IBM, Red Hat, Nethype GmbH, SUSE, and Google among others.
All of these are the who mistakingly claims that GNU, FOSS and Linux World belongs to them ONLY and can lead in ONLY the direction they want, which would never be the case in centuries to come. All of these are real SUCKERS of the resources.
Still, I would say, I do NOT have bias of any sort for any person(s) in particular.
They can do whatever they wish freely, and, vice versa.
As I have my own preferences and choices to be followed
Number of Comments: 123
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
| | |
| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
|
| Archives |
| • Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
| • Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
| • Issue 1044 (2023-11-06): Porteus 5.01, disabling IPv6, applications unique to a Linux distro, Linux merges bcachefs, OpenELA makes source packages available |
| • Issue 1043 (2023-10-30): Murena Two with privacy switches, where old files go when packages are updated, UBports on Volla phones, Mint testing Cinnamon on Wayland, Peppermint releases ARM build |
| • Issue 1042 (2023-10-23): Ubuntu Cinnamon compared with Linux Mint, extending battery life on Linux, Debian resumes /usr merge, Canonical publishes fixed install media |
| • Issue 1041 (2023-10-16): FydeOS 17.0, Dr.Parted 23.09, changing UIDs, Fedora partners with Slimbook, GNOME phasing out X11 sessions, Ubuntu revokes 23.10 install media |
| • Issue 1040 (2023-10-09): CROWZ 5.0, changing the location of default directories, Linux Mint updates its Edge edition, Murena crowdfunding new privacy phone, Debian publishes new install media |
| • Issue 1039 (2023-10-02): Zenwalk Current, finding the duration of media files, Peppermint OS tries out new edition, COSMIC gains new features, Canonical reports on security incident in Snap store |
| • Issue 1038 (2023-09-25): Mageia 9, trouble-shooting launchers, running desktop Linux in the cloud, New documentation for Nix, Linux phasing out ReiserFS, GNU celebrates 40 years |
| • Issue 1037 (2023-09-18): Bodhi Linux 7.0.0, finding specific distros and unified package managemnt, Zevenet replaced by two new forks, openSUSE introduces Slowroll branch, Fedora considering dropping Plasma X11 session |
| • Issue 1036 (2023-09-11): SDesk 2023.08.12, hiding command line passwords, openSUSE shares contributor survery results, Ubuntu plans seamless disk encryption, GNOME 45 to break extension compatibility |
| • Issue 1035 (2023-09-04): Debian GNU/Hurd 2023, PCLinuxOS 2023.07, do home users need a firewall, AlmaLinux introduces new repositories, Rocky Linux commits to RHEL compatibility, NetBSD machine runs unattended for nine years, Armbian runs wallpaper contest |
| • Issue 1034 (2023-08-28): Void 20230628, types of memory usage, FreeBSD receives port of Linux NVIDIA driver, Fedora plans improved theme handling for Qt applications, Canonical's plans for Ubuntu |
| • Issue 1033 (2023-08-21): MiniOS 20230606, system user accounts, how Red Hat clones are moving forward, Haiku improves WINE performance, Debian turns 30 |
| • Issue 1032 (2023-08-14): MX Linux 23, positioning new windows on the desktop, Linux Containers adopts LXD fork, Oracle, SUSE, and CIQ form OpenELA |
| • Issue 1031 (2023-08-07): Peppermint OS 2023-07-01, preventing a file from being changed, Asahi Linux partners with Fedora, Linux Mint plans new releases |
| • Issue 1030 (2023-07-31): Solus 4.4, Linux Mint 21.2, Debian introduces RISC-V support, Ubuntu patches custom kernel bugs, FreeBSD imports OpenSSL 3 |
| • Issue 1029 (2023-07-24): Running Murena on the Fairphone 4, Flatpak vs Snap sandboxing technologies, Redox OS plans to borrow Linux drivers to expand hardware support, Debian updates Bookworm media |
| • Issue 1028 (2023-07-17): KDE Connect; Oracle, SUSE, and AlmaLinux repsond to Red Hat's source code policy change, KaOS issues media fix, Slackware turns 30; security and immutable distributions |
| • Issue 1027 (2023-07-10): Crystal Linux 2023-03-16, StartOS (embassyOS 0.3.4.2), changing options on a mounted filesystem, Murena launches Fairphone 4 in North America, Fedora debates telemetry for desktop team |
| • Issue 1026 (2023-07-03): Kumander Linux 1.0, Red Hat changing its approach to sharing source code, TrueNAS offers SMB Multichannel, Zorin OS introduces upgrade utility |
| • Issue 1025 (2023-06-26): KaOS with Plasma 6, information which can leak from desktop environments, Red Hat closes door on sharing RHEL source code, SUSE introduces new security features |
| • Issue 1024 (2023-06-19): Debian 12, a safer way to use dd, Debian releases GNU/Hurd 2023, Ubuntu 22.10 nears its end of life, FreeBSD turns 30 |
| • Issue 1023 (2023-06-12): openSUSE 15.5 Leap, the differences between independent distributions, openSUSE lengthens Leap life, Murena offers new phone for North America |
| • Issue 1022 (2023-06-05): GetFreeOS 2023.05.01, Slint 15.0-3, Liya N4Si, cleaning up crowded directories, Ubuntu plans Snap-based variant, Red Hat dropping LireOffice RPM packages |
| • Issue 1021 (2023-05-29): rlxos GNU/Linux, colours in command line output, an overview of Void's unique features, how to use awk, Microsoft publishes a Linux distro |
| • Issue 1020 (2023-05-22): UBports 20.04, finding another machine's IP address, finding distros with a specific kernel, Debian prepares for Bookworm |
| • Issue 1019 (2023-05-15): Rhino Linux (Beta), checking which applications reply on a package, NethServer reborn, System76 improving application responsiveness |
| • Issue 1018 (2023-05-08): Fedora 38, finding relevant manual pages, merging audio files, Fedora plans new immutable edition, Mint works to fix Secure Boot issues |
| • Issue 1017 (2023-05-01): Xubuntu 23.04, Debian elects Project Leaders and updates media, systemd to speed up restarts, Guix System offering ground-up source builds, where package managers install files |
| • Issue 1016 (2023-04-24): Qubes OS 4.1.2, tracking bandwidth usage, Solus resuming development, FreeBSD publishes status report, KaOS offers preview of Plasma 6 |
| • Issue 1015 (2023-04-17): Manjaro Linux 22.0, Trisquel GNU/Linux 11.0, Arch Linux powering PINE64 tablets, Ubuntu offering live patching on HWE kernels, gaining compression on ex4 |
| • Issue 1014 (2023-04-10): Quick looks at carbonOS, LibreELEC, and Kodi, Mint polishes themes, Fedora rolls out more encryption plans, elementary OS improves sideloading experience |
| • Issue 1013 (2023-04-03): Alpine Linux 3.17.2, printing manual pages, Ubuntu Cinnamon becomes official flavour, Endeavour OS plans for new installer, HardenedBSD plans for outage |
| • Issue 1012 (2023-03-27): siduction 22.1.1, protecting privacy from proprietary applications, GNOME team shares new features, Canonical updates Ubuntu 20.04, politics and the Linux kernel |
| • Issue 1011 (2023-03-20): Serpent OS, Security Onion 2.3, Gentoo Live, replacing the scp utility, openSUSE sees surge in downloads, Debian runs elction with one candidate |
| • Issue 1010 (2023-03-13): blendOS 2023.01.26, keeping track of which files a package installs, improved network widget coming to elementary OS, Vanilla OS changes its base distro |
| • Issue 1009 (2023-03-06): Nemo Mobile and the PinePhone, matching the performance of one distro on another, Linux Mint adds performance boosts and security, custom Ubuntu and Debian builds through Cubic |
| • Issue 1008 (2023-02-27): elementary OS 7.0, the benefits of boot environments, Purism offers lapdock for Librem 5, Ubuntu community flavours directed to drop Flatpak support for Snap |
| • Issue 1007 (2023-02-20): helloSystem 0.8.0, underrated distributions, Solus team working to repair their website, SUSE testing Micro edition, Canonical publishes real-time edition of Ubuntu 22.04 |
| • Issue 1006 (2023-02-13): Playing music with UBports on a PinePhone, quick command line and shell scripting questions, Fedora expands third-party software support, Vanilla OS adds Nix package support |
| • Issue 1005 (2023-02-06): NuTyX 22.12.0 running CDE, user identification numbers, Pop!_OS shares COSMIC progress, Mint makes keyboard and mouse options more accessible |
| • Issue 1004 (2023-01-30): OpenMandriva ROME, checking the health of a disk, Debian adopting OpenSnitch, FreeBSD publishes status report |
| • Issue 1003 (2023-01-23): risiOS 37, mixing package types, Fedora seeks installer feedback, Sparky offers easier persistence with USB writer |
| • Issue 1002 (2023-01-16): Vanilla OS 22.10, Nobara Project 37, verifying torrent downloads, Haiku improvements, HAMMER2 being ports to NetBSD |
| • Issue 1001 (2023-01-09): Arch Linux, Ubuntu tests new system installer, porting KDE software to OpenBSD, verifying files copied properly |
| • Issue 1000 (2023-01-02): Our favourite projects of all time, Fedora trying out unified kernel images and trying to speed up shutdowns, Slackware tests new kernel, detecting what is taking up disk space |
| • Issue 999 (2022-12-19): Favourite distributions of 2022, Fedora plans Budgie spin, UBports releasing security patches for 16.04, Haiku working on new ports |
| • Issue 998 (2022-12-12): OpenBSD 7.2, Asahi Linux enages video hardware acceleration on Apple ARM computers, Manjaro drops proprietary codecs from Mesa package |
| • Issue 997 (2022-12-05): CachyOS 221023 and AgarimOS, working with filenames which contain special characters, elementary OS team fixes delta updates, new features coming to Xfce |
| • Issue 996 (2022-11-28): Void 20221001, remotely shutting down a machine, complex aliases, Fedora tests new web-based installer, Refox OS running on real hardware |
| • Issue 995 (2022-11-21): Fedora 37, swap files vs swap partitions, Unity running on Arch, UBports seeks testers, Murena adds support for more devices |
| • Issue 994 (2022-11-14): Redcore Linux 2201, changing the terminal font size, Fedora plans Phosh spin, openSUSE publishes on-line manual pages, disabling Snap auto-updates |
| • Issue 993 (2022-11-07): Static Linux, working with just a kernel, Mint streamlines Flatpak management, updates coming to elementary OS |
| • Full list of all issues |
| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
|
| Shells.com |
Your own personal Linux computer in the cloud, available on any device. Supported operating systems include Android, Debian, Fedora, KDE neon, Kubuntu, Linux Mint, Manjaro and Ubuntu, ready in minutes.
Starting at US$4.95 per month, 7-day money-back guarantee
|
| Random Distribution | 
Voltalinux
Voltalinux was a GNU/Linux distribution based on Slackware Linux and the pkgsrc package system from NetBSD. The project offers a pre-built distribution where the user can enjoy the clean design of Slackware Linux with the availability of over 5,000 NetBSD ports ready to be installed.
Status: Discontinued
|
| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
|
| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
|
|
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
