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Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Seriously, what's the WHY of "Wayland"? (by OS2_user on 2017-11-20 01:42:24 GMT from United States)
Jesse wrote: "I am happy to see Wayland is coming along to the point where it is close to on par with the X session."
It's not just "Wayland"; I see this as THE KEY QUESTION / PROBLEM in GNU/Linux: many duplicative efforts having no clear advantage over existing, which after years get to point of merely usable.
No doubt has X has many flaws, but one could fix or extend X -- or just be content within its limits. Fracturing the "market" -- particularly with versions that simply don't work with a supplied video player as noted for Fedora above -- is making Linux LESS "ready for the desktop" than ever.
A GUI doesn't have to do much beyond drawing / filling rectangles, a little bit blitting for icons, and figuring out where mouse is, especially for clicks. Again, Windows 3.1 did it in about 4 megabytes, and on wildly varied wacky hardware, unlike now where all are essentially same, vast linear bit planes.
Sure, nearly all of you here like "experimenting", but new isn't what most people want. I wonder how many potential converts you lose just from bad GUI design. -- I converted but the continual needless changes in GUIs, combined with increasingly unreliable operation in every area, topped by the ext4 file system that simply rotted away before my eyes, forced me back to Windows. (BTW: that new WD 3T drive is entirely reliable now...)
2 • Opinion Poll: ARM desktops and laptops (by FT on 2017-11-20 02:12:29 GMT from Singapore)
Does single board computer (SBC) such as Raspberry Pi boards considered as ARM desktops? If yes, then my poll will be "I own multiple ARM-powered SBC"
3 • ARM processor powered Laptops & Desktop (by ARM O'Stong on 2017-11-20 02:15:59 GMT from Canada)
Microsoft is having a pot-luck party with Qualcomm Snapdragon 835, MS is experimenting Windows 10 with the fastest available 4G-LTE modem, Bluetooth 5 and 802.11ad standard Wi-Fi support. While ASUS, Dell, Lenovo and HP are experimenting with ARM cellular-mobile PCs. Two leading manufacturers in China already have ARM processor powered laptops since long and these are hard to find in North-American and European Consumer Market.
4 • Fedora (by Andy Prough on 2017-11-20 03:27:56 GMT from Asia/Pacific Region)
That's really too bad to read about your bad experience with the Gnome environment on Fedora. Like Ubuntu, I found that openSUSE has a customized Gnome setup that works quite well under both Wayland and Xorg. I've given up on using the Gnome software manager though. It seems worse than useless with the way it gives different updates in openSUSE than what you get with YAST or zypper. I'm afraid it will break the system if I try to use it for updates or for installing new packages, as it does not seem intelligently designed enough to deal with dependencies reliably.
Also surprising to see the high memory usage with XFCE.
5 • Wayland is good (by M.Z. on 2017-11-20 03:32:04 GMT from United States)
@1 'It's not just "Wayland"; I see this as THE KEY QUESTION / PROBLEM in GNU/Linux: many duplicative efforts having no clear advantage over existing,"
There are a multitude of reasons why X is being replaced with Wayland, & yes the eventual goal is total replacement. The thing about X is that it is old, insecure, & filled with many now useless features & according to the people from X who started Wayland, it needs to be replaced. I don't know all the technical details, but from the research I've done Wayland is a greatly simplified way to do the best of what X should be doing & in some ways is doing right now. It does it far more securely, with more accuracy, and it has a simplified code base that should be far more maintainable & easier for new people to work on. All this while being backward compatible & allowing X to be used as needed.
Also, FYI, the main duplication of effort was the way that the Ubuntu project was creating this thing called Mir that was supposed to be the same basic thing as Wayland. This effort has basically been suspended in all but some edge cases where I understand Mir is actually being used in conjunction with Wayland, rather than as an alternative to it. So actually give what happened with the real duplication of effort, you seen to just be complaining about something old being replaced by something newer & simpler.
"A GUI doesn't have to do much beyond drawing / filling rectangles..."
And yet, you seem to be arguing that we should all stick to the old Rube Goldberg machine that is X simply because it is there & working now regardless of how bad it actually is. This contradiction makes me think you have no clue what is actually going on.
6 • Vastly different results from Fedora 27 for me (by Brenton Horne on 2017-11-20 04:01:55 GMT from Australia)
Fedora's GNOME on Wayland session seems to work better for me. Totem runs fine on Wayland (if relevant my graphics card is a NVIDIA one), although yes the video codecs GNOME Software comes up with when Totem can't play a video are numerous and have unhelpful descriptions. The only app I found that didn't run on Wayland was Plank (the dock program from Pantheon). There's no need to reboot after upgrades when you upgrade with DNF from the command-line.
The only thing I really hate about Fedora is how sensitive it is. If I chroot into it from another system (and yes I do mount up the dev, sys and proc file systems before doing this, the same way I do for Gentoo based on the Gentoo Handbook) and run `dnf update` or `dnf install broadcom-wl` (from RPMFusion non-free repo), which I do as I can't connect to the WiFi on a fresh F27 install due to my Broadcom chip, several systemd services fail on boot, preventing GNOME and agetty TTY terminals from starting. Likewise if I manually compile software and install to /usr/local, even on a running system (as opposed to in a chroot), I get the same systemd issues. If I move files around, even in the /home folder, from another system (e.g. in a chroot) I also find the system fails to boot, although oddly no systemd services I can see fail.
7 • Fedora 27 (by linuxista on 2017-11-20 04:37:34 GMT from United States)
Spent a few days last week installing fedora 27 as my secondary OS. I'm very, very impressed. Suse Tumbleweed only lasted 4 months before I couldn't wait to pave over it. I have a feeling Fedora, as long as the upgrade path is stable, i.e. to 28, 29, etc., is going to be on my machine a long time. I'm very partial to rolling --Arch has been my primary for many years-- but if Arch users are looking for a point release distro, for me at least, Fedora feels right in a number of ways.
CLI pkg mgmt (dnf) is excellent. Std install is streamlined, not bloaty (looking at you Tumbleweed). Tinkering is straightforward and responds predictably to intervention, i.e. not full of patches (ubuntu) or intermediate distro specific tools (like yast).
On the downside, COPR is pretty dismal compared to the AUR, but I got almost everything I wanted in regular repos + rpmfusion. Documentation is not great. If only Red Hat would lose that paywall.
As per Jesse's review. Gnome+Wayland on Fedora is working just fine for me. Same as on Arch. The focus on the Ubuntu dock seems pretty superficial, like choosing to buy one car over another because of the color paint or the hubcaps. There are a number of excellent extensions that do whatever the Ubuntu dock does and more that are super easily obtainable. To me doesn't seem like a valid basis for choosing one over another.
8 • @ #1 (by dennis flener on 2017-11-20 06:38:22 GMT from United States)
You said it all. Why make it more confusiing that it needs to be? The average desktop user (Are there any left] does not give a damn about xorg vs wayland or systmd vs init.d. Why not make it unified for the sake of the few desktop users still hanging on to the dinasour dream? Linux will never {probably not] overtake Windows on the desktop, and forget about smartphones or tablets. Desktops computing is the only place where Linux (might) succeed, but the diversity is definately a drawback...sorry for the rant of a non geek?
9 • ARM (by zukoda on 2017-11-20 07:21:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
I own two ARM "powered" pink pogoplugs running debian Jessie (kirkwood) as low power consumption nameservers usb camera points and USB backup devices. They have 4 USB2.0 ports and I use ssh -X ..... as access via 100MBit ethernet,
10 • Fedora (by silent on 2017-11-20 10:48:17 GMT from France)
Fedora generally does not require restart after upgrade. It is more like a feature of Gnome Software setup in Fedora. The other graphical frontend, dnfdragora-gui is also freezing and locking dnf. It is written in python3 and I wonder how it could pass the otherwise strict Fedora QA tests. Unfortunately, the development of yumex-dnf has apparently stopped. The good news is though that dnf on the CLI is fast and reliable. A GUI package manager is probably more more important for distributions that target beginners, like Mint. Gnome is probably feeling slow not only because of dnfdragora-update, but also due to a rather richly selected default of autostarted processes that may use up lots of resources. Mate was also slow before stopping most of those. For me Fedora 27 is a good release with a very nice wallpaper. The only real inconvenience for a home workstation is the rather short support period. The purist FOSS approach can be easily circumvented by RPMfusion.
11 • Desktop (by jymm on 2017-11-20 11:25:49 GMT from United States)
Dinosaur here, still use the Linux desktop. Pretty causal user though, and you are right I really don't care about xorg vs wayland or systmd vs init.d. I just care more that my OS works.
12 • Linux desktop (by MikeOh Shark on 2017-11-20 13:03:01 GMT from Netherlands)
Surprised to see a few people show love for the Windows way of forcing their "unified" because it's the only choice way. I won't go back to Windows. Privacy, security, stability, easy updates, easy backups, hardware portable OS, easier finding and installing applications for just about any task...
By the way, is it just my unreasonable browser settings or has Distrowatch been a little harder to load lately? (dns or other issue?)
13 • You Don't Need To Update Like Gnome Wants You To Update (by buzzrobot on 2017-11-20 13:19:41 GMT from United States)
Occam's razor says the slowness Jessie complains about re: Fedora updating is down to a slow mirror and/or slow connection. IT's not necessary to use it and it can be disabled.
The forced reboot is part of Gnome. It's how that project wants updating via Gnome Software to work. There do remain times when we should reboot. While many users will, at least, *think* they know when they should reboot and when they should not, many are also probably wrong.
Ubuntu ships Gnome with a few standard Gnome Shell extensions pre-installed. One is a stripped version of Dash To Dock that provides the Unity-like dock. A user can install Dash-To-Dock on Fedora and configure it similarly. (And any user who knows when or when not to reboot after an update can be expected to know how to install a Gnome extension.)
The point about stock Gnome Shell usability is on target. it is, in fact, more usable via the keyboard than via mouse. I suspect this is down to developer-led Linux design by developers who spend their time pecking away on laptops.
14 • There's always a reason (by Christian on 2017-11-20 13:56:23 GMT from Brazil)
I believe that there's a reason to put so much effort in Wayland and replacing X. We should not trash all this work without understanding all the reasons behind it.
Yes, I'm a casual user, and although I do only have Linux Distros on my computer, I'm not shy to use closed source software if it performs better. I do mind having the choice.
And all this "duplicated" effort in Linux is what gives us choice. Dont't like Wayland? There's something for you. Don't like systemd? There's something for you. Don't want to worry with what's going on in your computer and want something that just works with a few mouse clicks? There's something for you.
Windows and Macs may do lots of things really well, but in my opinion, is with Linux that for me my computer gives me what I want the most: to be in control and to have choices.
I've been a Fedora user in the past, and although today I rather have a more "stable" experience, I do appreciate that they working to bring new technologies to Linux. So there you go, if you don't like, you can go with something else, anytime.
15 • Cross-distro Package Manager (by MaxP on 2017-11-20 14:10:18 GMT from Germany)
The XBPS package manager (most famous from the Void linux project) is also very easy to integrate into other distributions, it is worth to mention. You then have access to a large collection of package templates which you can then (cross-)compile for on alot of different architectures: mips, armv6, armv7, aarch64, i686, x86_64
https://github.com/voidlinux/void-packages#using-xbps-src-in-a-foreign-linux-distribution
16 • Dash to Dock (by Luke on 2017-11-20 14:17:23 GMT from United States)
I'm on RHEL 7 at work and Ubuntu 17.10 at home. The key to making GNOME 3 more intuitive, and what Ubuntu does by default, is making the dash (which only appears in the "overview" mode) act like a dock (which is either always there or accessible by moving the mouse to that side of the screen. The most popular GNOME Shell Extension to do this is the aptly named "Dash to Dock."
There are several other tweaks I like (focus follows mouse without autoraise, Applications dropdown menu in place of that Activities button, no "hot corner", dark theme, etc.), all accessible through the also aptly named GNOME Tweak Tool. Basically, installing that should always be the first step when using any GNOME 3-based distro.
17 • Fedora (by Jordan on 2017-11-20 14:25:08 GMT from United States)
"Fedora feels more and more like a testing ground for developers and less like a polished experience for people to use as their day-to-day operating system. "
They say they're something else:
"Fedora Workstation is a polished, easy to use operating system for laptop and desktop computers, with a complete set of tools for developers and makers of all kinds."
My experience with it is pretty close to that quoted remark of Jesse, though. The differences between what the distro feels like to a desktop user and what it purports to be are only important if the user can remedy the issues and create the experience they need. Most distros out there really do have provisions for that, including Fedora.
I just don't like seeing that difference. But it's across many distros.
18 • re: 1 Seriously, what's the WHY (by Morton on 2017-11-20 14:29:52 GMT from Ukraine)
is #1 an another attempt to reason with clever arguments on the agenda how bad the GNU/Linux is in general? In real life: I'm just after setting up a new lucky first-time Linux user on the newly installed Linux Mint OS. The guy spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to fix network problem on Windows 7 & 8.1, reading thousands of posts with everyone pretty much describing the same thing in different ways. It took 30 minutes to make him happy. No problems with drivers, software and hardware compatability at all.
19 • Memory hogs in comparison - Fedora, Ubuntu, GNOME vs. Debian/KDE (by Dojnow on 2017-11-20 14:35:29 GMT from Bulgaria)
- Fedora: "The GNOME on Wayland session required about 960MB and GNOME on Xorg required 930MB. A fresh install ... took up about 5GB of disk space."; - Ubuntu: "the distribution tended to use about 790MB to 830MB of RAM and a fresh install took up about 4.6GB of hard drive space." http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20171030#ubuntu ; - Debian (64b, sid)/KDE: 281 to 297 MB and ~1.76 GB.
20 • Gnome and Wayland... (by lenn on 2017-11-20 14:52:06 GMT from United States)
Maybe, you guys would like to check Guntu? https://sourceforge.net/projects/guntu/
21 • hail Caesar (by lupus on 2017-11-20 15:22:43 GMT from Germany)
I´m, right now, so fed up with this dumb argument of quadruplicated efforts by stretching thin instead of working together to enhance Linux more efficiently, all hail to the big leader.
I think whoever got this Idea in his head hasn´t understood that we are only here at this very special moment in time where it is absolutely possible to run even a completely libre OS on your hardware because of enthusiasts that work for little to no money just to make their and your experience with the OS of their choice better.
Is some effort wasted? You bet´ya! Is everything better in FOSS world? No it ain´t.
But if you are of the opinion expressed above your statements are just plain wrong from the start. You would do us and yourself a favor of keeping it to yourself cause it´s wrong and stubborn repetition doesn´t make it right. If I had a saying in this, here is the leader you may want to follow, I´d ban all those comments and the commentators for life except they come to their senses and openly regret their mistakes.
just 2 cents not even mine
22 • ARM desktops and laptops (by HM on 2017-11-20 15:33:58 GMT from Germany)
I'm using Arch Linux ARM on my Raspberry Pi 2. Doing a pacman -Syu every week or so. Three years and running, never had any problems,
23 • cross-distribution packaging (by dogma on 2017-11-20 15:35:25 GMT from United States)
In some ways this can be good, but some of these efforts are likely to be for the purpose of further gaining control of the direction and center of mass of linux.
24 • ARM powered desktop/laptop (by Sam Crawford on 2017-11-20 16:04:15 GMT from United States)
Only if you count my iPad.
25 • SUSE Tumbleweed / File Systems / Fedora RAM Usage (by Winchester on 2017-11-20 16:34:28 GMT from United States)
Regarding Post # 7 :
You don't really need to use YAST for software management in OpenSUSE Tumbleweed (probably not needed for that purpose in Leap either). They have "zypper" for use from the command line. "sudo zypper refresh" , "sudo zypper update" , "sudo zypper install package name" , "sudo zypper dist-upgrade".
Tumbleweed is one of the most reliable rolling distributions out there as far as providing new packages yet avoiding breakage so long as you don't involve the "Packman" repository.
I did not find the installation to be "bloated". They allow you to select or to deselect groups of software. The official installation media offers only KDE , Gnome , XFCE , and LXDE but,others are available after installation .... such as LXQt , KDE 3 , Enlightenment etc. .
The only problem with the installation in SUSE is that it tends to install GRUB into the MBR even if you tell it to install GRUB into only the root partition. Another problem for many is that SUSE uses systemD. PCmanFM QT is broken in the current version. Other than that,I find it to be a very functional distribution using LXQt. Better than Fedora,in my opinion.
Regarding post # 1 :
There are more file systems than ext4 available in Linux. Btrfs , EXT3 , ReiserFS etc. Other than that,some valid points this time. Although,I have found Windows to be the king of "unreliable operation".
Regarding post # 19 :
I have always found Fedora to be high on RAM usage in comparison charts .... desktop GUI to desktop GUI .... compared to most other distributions. Except for maybe LXDE or LXQt. Gnome under Fedora has always been on the high side from what I have read.
Anyway,personally,I am not a big Gnome user. I have PALDO on a partition but,I boot into it much less often than the other distributions,manly because of the Gnome GUI. I have it there mainly for the sake of variety.
I find it much easier to get things accomplished under LXQt or XFCE. All I need is a simple panel with an applications / system menu and maybe a quick launch dock such as Plank or Wbar or even a second panel modified into a quick launch dock.
I find it puzzling that people rely on bloated feeling environments such as Gnome 3. Maybe it would be alright after modification with high spec hardware but,what is the real advantage of it versus LXQt or XFCE??
There are some good Gnome applications despite the Gnome GUI. File Roller,Nautilus with bookmarks. Some media software. They can be run under other environments,though.
26 • none (by Tim Dowd on 2017-11-20 17:07:38 GMT from United States)
@1
I don't think we lose any converts due to bad GUI design. The desktops in most of the distributions used by new Linux users are great and have been for a long time. Most computer literate adults can pick up a Linux computer (or MacOSX or Windows 10 computer) for the first time and have no trouble using it.
You have to remember the point of Fedora IS to reinvent the wheel. That's why it exists. It's where new technology (that's being developed to solve real problems) gets released into the wild for the first time, and its users want it for that reason. When the usability issues for Wayland decrease to the point where its better than what we've got (which has been happening really rapidly) then other distros will pick up the cause. It's a pain in the neck that bugs show up in such a distro but finding them is the point of the distro existing!
As for the comment about the Linux marketplace being fractured, I don't see this at all. If you're a new user to Linux, you're probably going to find Mint or Ubuntu first, and those are both OK places to start. As your preferences develop, you then have many choices and get to pick a distro that fits your personality. That's a positive, not a negative.
27 • re: #8 and Linux Success (by Peter Besenbruch on 2017-11-20 18:31:06 GMT from United States)
"The average desktop user (Are there any left] does not give a damn about xorg vs wayland or systmd vs init.d."
I do give a damn, and what I care about is whether or not the system works. With Wayland, it doesn't, at least not yet, not with the consistency I want. Then again, Fedora isn't the distribution you want to run if you crave stability and consistency. Yes you can use it, but it sure pays to know its ins and outs. What do you get in return? You get to try some of the most recent developments in Linux. If that's your thing, Fedora is a good choice.
"Why not make it unified for the sake of the few desktop users still hanging on to the dinasour dream? Linux will never {probably not] overtake Windows on the desktop, and forget about smartphones or tablets."
I got away from Windows to escape Microsoft's imposed "unity." I don't mind using Systemd if I have to, but I have never liked Gnome in any form. I have never liked bloat, either. So I use a very non-bloated XFCE system on Debian as my default desktop. You probably don't.
I don't use a smart phone, but other family members do. Some of them are called Android phones. Android runs on top of the Linux kernel. Android, of course, is a complete failure. Windows is totally dominant on smart phones.
"Desktops computing is the only place where Linux (might) succeed, but the diversity is definitely a drawback...sorry for the rant of a non geek?"
I have had zero formal training in computers, and don't qualify as a geek, either, yet I also run something called "servers." Linux has failed spectacularly here, too. One of my systems is a basic Samba file server. Another is a VPN I put together (using Debian), and which is hosted in the cloud. I use SSH to manage it. My house also uses a router. It, too, runs Linux. It has a pretty good Web interface, yet I confess I have used SSH to poke around there, too.
In the fifteen years I have tried to work with Linux, I have gotten to know what I like. It's probably not what you like. That's what diversity is all about.
28 • Switching between multiple applications in Fedora GNOME (by Scott Dowdle on 2017-11-20 18:45:58 GMT from United States)
Just hit ALT-TAB.
29 • Wayland and gnome 3 (by a on 2017-11-20 19:05:29 GMT from France)
I agree that wayland and gnome 3 are just breaking things and pushing people away from Linux instead of solving real problems.
30 • @29 Gnome 3 and Wayland (by OstroL on 2017-11-20 19:41:44 GMT from Poland)
"I agree that wayland and gnome 3 are just breaking things and pushing people away from Linux instead of solving real problems."
I suppose, you are right. I think, Gnome 3 and Wayland would be the Nemesis of Ubuntu and Cannonical.
31 • Fedora with Cinnamon Vs Gnome (by M.Z. on 2017-11-20 20:18:35 GMT from United States)
@10 & @13 "Fedora generally does not require restart after upgrade. It is more like a feature of Gnome Software setup in Fedora."
This is exactly what I've found with Fedora 26 Cinnamon. I played with an earlier Gnome based version in a VM & had the same exact restart situation described in the review; however, there is no need to restart in Fedora Cinnamon. I believe that there was also a similar situation with Fedora XFCE.
@10 "The other graphical frontend, dnfdragora-gui is also freezing and locking dnf."
I find that a bit odd, I've mostly been using the CLI for updates on my main desktop with Fedora Cinnamon; however, what I have used of dnfDragora seems far more stable & reliable than older versions of Fedora XFCE with Yumex GUI which had constant problems installing updates that didn't exist on the command line. In fact I'd say that Mageia's new dnfDragroa was very reliable compared to yumex GUI & thought it was a great new feature when I first encountered it.
@16 "...all accessible through the also aptly named GNOME Tweak Tool. Basically, installing that should always be the first step when using any GNOME 3-based distro."
See that's basically where many Gnome 3 users lose me completely. Why not just design a desktop with sane defaults that most users want at the start? Also, why not include the configuration options that most users want, & have them ready in the default configuration? To me these things are signals that Gnome does not want to make the sort of desktop that I want. The Gnome folks seem to be more concerned with building something different with a new brand identity than they are concerned with what most of their potential users actually want. Unfortunately I think anything else is a better choice for most users.
32 • @11 (by hwms on 2017-11-20 21:41:07 GMT from United States)
I am the same. Don't know what ARM is and how it relates to anything. I just want a distro that works.
33 • @25 (by hwms on 2017-11-20 21:45:34 GMT from United States)
I have found Tumbleweed to be, for me, the most stable KDE5 distro. I ran PCLOS for years and still have it installed but OpenSuse Tumbleweed is my daily goto distro.
34 • @31: (by dragonmouth on 2017-11-20 21:53:49 GMT from United States)
"Why not just design a desktop with sane defaults that most users want at the start? Also, why not include the configuration options that most users want, & have them ready in the default configuration? " Because many developers arrogantly think they know best what the users want. They think that THEIR version (or vision) of Linux is the Next Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread.
35 • re: 1 Seriously, what's the WHY (by Morton on 2017-11-20 22:16:52 GMT from Ukraine)
is #1 an another attempt to reason with clever arguments on the agenda how bad the GNU/Linux is in general? In real life: I'm just after setting up a new lucky first-time Linux user on the newly installed Linux Mint OS. The guy spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to fix network problem on Windows 7 & 8.1, reading thousands of posts with everyone pretty much describing the same thing in different ways. It took 30 minutes to make him happy. No problems with drivers, software and hardware compatability at all.
36 • @8 Dennis (by Johnathan on 2017-11-20 22:30:04 GMT from Netherlands)
"forget about smartphones or tablets. Desktops computing is the only place where Linux (might) succeed"
You do realize that smartphone OS world is _dominated_ by the Linux-based Android, don't you? (See e.g. https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os, or any other source on the topic.) Epic fail...
37 • Fedora @31 (by silent on 2017-11-21 10:58:42 GMT from France)
Dnfdragora is using dnf, so the results are reliable, I guess. I think that dnfdragora-gui should not immediately launch a repoquery on startup or any user entry.The user should be allowed to select multiple criteria, and then push the "Search" (Query, etc.) button. It also appeared to me that during the repoquery the GUI was unresponsive or frozen, I mean other package managers display some messages and a progress bar, and the query can be interrupted. Sometimes probably dnfdragora-update is locking dnf and that causes GUI problems as well.This is probably just a childhood disease, but it was disturbing. A faster internet connection certainly means less waiting. I only have 1MB/s at the moment. I presume that at 100MB/s everything looks fine. Dnf is working well on the CLI.
38 • failing the users (by Jason on 2017-11-21 15:22:46 GMT from United States)
Reading this review, it feels like Linux projects have really failed the user while in their pursuit of pet projects. I've tried to have as little to do with them as possible, using Xubuntu, but even then I have to manually restart many system components, such as the mouse, audio, and networking. Linux frankly felt friendlier in the 90's, even when slackware needed me to manually enter my monitor specs. The reason being was that was a clearly listed process you and the developers were overcoming together. But for a while now, it feels like users and developers are fighting each other, and your best bet is someone who has re-spun some other stock distribution in order to be readily usable, Mint being the prime example of success in this.
39 • @25 Tumbleweed (by linuxista on 2017-11-21 15:40:56 GMT from United States)
>Tumbleweed is one of the most reliable rolling distributions out there as far as providing new packages yet avoiding breakage so long as you don't involve the "Packman" repository.
Not in my experience. Not at all. I had it configured exactly as my Arch setup, and in every case Tumbleweed fell down while Arch was smooth. Whether the upgrade to NetworkManager 1.8, gnome extensions not working correctly, various other things, but the straw that broke the camel's back was the upgrade to Gnome 3.26. Tumbleweed was first out of the gate, but full of serious scaling screw-ups on my 4k display. Arch's upgrade came 2 weeks later, and was perfect. A month later and a couple of iterative upgrades, and Suse was still screwed up. Enter Fedora. So much better in so many ways, regarding smooth, unified user experience, fit and finish and general sensibility of the underlying OS vs. the kludgy assemblage of tools that Suse struck me as. Didn't expect to find such a world of difference b/t rpm distros. But Fedora outshines Suse by a mile in my experience. If the upgrade path to 28, 29, etc. is smooth, Fedora is a huge keeper.
40 • Fedora Memory Usage, Duplicated Efforts (by Jim on 2017-11-21 16:30:04 GMT from United States)
@19: I noticed that, too. Where the heck is all that memory going? My Mac at work does the same thing. I regularly end up swapping even with 16GB internal memory. I can't explain for the life of me (other than "bloat") why terminal windows and status icons taken 100-200MB apiece (see the Activity Monitor). Don't get me started on the "normal" apps or why the kernel needs more memory than the "bloated" GNOME3 desktop on Fedora (currently at 1.45GB).
@1, 21, others: Wasted effort exists everywhere. It's part of life. Anyone who has worked in a large company (software development or not) sees a ton of waste, duplicate efforts, completing efforts for resources, etc. The difference between those large companies (MS, Apple, others) and FOSS is that we can see into the inner-workings of FOSS. Those other big names are much the same if not worse.
41 • Fedora 27 software updates (by Jesse on 2017-11-21 16:30:17 GMT from Canada)
>> "Fedora generally does not require restart after upgrade. It is more like a feature of Gnome Software setup in Fedora. "
This is not really accurate. If you use the default software manage (GNOME Software) then updates always require a restart. For end users to not need to restart to get updates they would need to both ignore the graphical software updater (and its notifications) and go out of their way to use an alternative package manager like the command line DNF utility. This is technically possible, but definitely not typical.
Also, I'd like to point out Ubuntu also uses GNOME Software as the default package manager, but uses a different utility to handle updates. On Ubuntu when you open GNOME Software there are never updates listed (at least I've never been able to make GNOME Software on Ubuntu show me available updates, even after using the distro for a month). On Ubuntu, when updates are available a dedicated update manager window appears, lets the user select which updates they want and installs them without requiring a reboot.
Since Fedora does require a reboot and Ubuntu does not, even though they both use GNOME Software as the default software manager, I think it's safe to call the forced reboot strictly a Fedora issue.
42 • fedora memory usage (by mandog on 2017-11-21 16:51:35 GMT from Peru)
1.45gb I pressume at start-up that is 1gb more than Gnome3 on my Arch setup what is fedora starting at boot time, or what is Arch doing right at start-up to be down in the 450mb 64bt+nividia non free drivers at startup. But then Ubuntu Fedora was allways bloated, as is Manjaro but not that bloated.
Guys you want to choose distros more carefully or learn how to disable services you really don't need. Even KDE only uses 450mb on my arch install
43 • failing the user (by Tim Dowd on 2017-11-21 17:09:39 GMT from United States)
@38
Try using Ubuntu MATE 17.10 for a week and tell me that Linux projects have "failed the user." Anyone can have a well configured, working system in about 20 minutes, where software to do just about any task with a computer is available to them for no cost. No proprietary operating system can offer that. What you're accusing Linux developers of ignoring is something that we actually already have.
Again, Fedora is not working on "pet projects." It's working on the future. It's a distro for people who want to be part of developing the technology that runs the next generation of computers. It's NOT the distro to run if that's not what you're interested in. But it's not fair to criticize them for doing their work. It would be the equivalent of telling Einstein "what do you need to do all this modern physics stuff for? We already have Newton, it just works, so stop making it too complicated." The point is that what works great for simple problems in the past might not be up to the challenges of the future, so we have to continue to push the envelope.
In short: the diversity of the open source world is a strength, not a problem. If you just want something that works, go get one of the many distros that just work and be grateful someone gave them to you. But don't criticize developers for trying to move the effort forward just because this forward motion doesn't currently affect you. It just might someday.
44 • Failing the users, some more (by TheTKS on 2017-11-21 17:15:26 GMT from United States)
@38 Having distrohopped and internetted to fix problems with many distros for almost a year has led me to believe some problems with *nix distros are very specific to that edition of that distro, with that collection of packages & utilities, on that hardware. (Same goes for Windows, by the way. Being amateur IT for family, I see that what should be the same edition of Win 8.1 or 10 can behave differently, and sometimes very badly, on different machines. Linux hasn't been worse than Windows in general, and on one machine, much better.)
You have problems with Xubuntu that I don't run into, I have a couple you didn't mention. For all I know (the impression I get), with Xubuntu other people may have other problems and worse, some people only minor and easily fixed ones.
Have Linux projects failed their users? Users are so varied, nobody can possibly speak for all of them. With *nix I've found you've got to try at least a few out to find which work(s) best for you, and chances are high if that you will find one that mostly does what you want to do, the way you want to do it. Unless you just have to have your OS the way MS or Apple or Android set it up for you, or your hardware just isn't going to operate well on a *nix.
Of course fixes and improvements are needed and desired by users. Send suggestions. If you donate to a project you like enough, write in what you would specifically like fixed or improved.
Now for a possibly related question to other commenters: is it possible to install an OS that boots up and at least sort of works, when the downloaded iso's hash doesn't match the published one, and not because of file tampering but because of a download hiccough? One of my download's had a non-matching hash, but I didn't even try to install. And if it's theoretically possible, has anyone ever seen it happen?
45 • My armhf laptop (by K.U. on 2017-11-21 17:30:44 GMT from Finland)
A few years ago there was plenty of cheap Linux-capable available in eBay. I bought one similar to this one: https://www.cnx-software.com/2012/08/02/allwinner-a10-based-h6-android-4-0-netbook-sells-for-140/
Linux distributions can be easily installed on it (on external SD-card) using BerryBoot Android app. I have currently DietPi installed in that way and it works OK.
Links: *BerryBoot A10: http://www.berryterminal.com/doku.php/berryboot_a10 *DietPi for BerryBoot is available here: https://berryboot.alexgoldcheidt.com/images/
46 • @38 mismatch hatch (by pengxuin on 2017-11-21 19:32:16 GMT from New Zealand)
if you torrented the .iso. the hash should be automatically checked.
It is possible that the published hash is incorrect, only the publisher will really know.
If there is a sudden rise in queries regarding the published hash, you can be pretty sure the publisher will investigate and or republish the hash.
"One of my download's had a non-matching hash, but I didn't even try to install. And if it's theoretically possible, has anyone ever seen it happen"
if you have a virtual-box setup, you can try for yourself. if the .iso wont boot you have just wasted 2 minutes of your time. if it does boot, you have an experiment to run ;-)
47 • @42 (by Jim on 2017-11-21 21:02:37 GMT from United States)
The 1.45GB is the current kernel_task memory on my Macbook, not memory usage in Fedora. I was comparing it to the almost 1GB Jesse reported. I agree with you wholeheartily to carefully select distributions. I wouldn't use OSX if I didn't have to for work.
48 • @46 mismatch hash (by TheTKS on 2017-11-21 21:41:05 GMT from United States)
Your suggestion to try it in a virtual box could be fun, if I ever run into this again.
Good point to check for sudden rise in queries re published hash.
My post was already too long, so I left a couple of things out to get to my question faster.
In my case, the downloaded fiIesize was also significantly smaller, so it was obvious there was a download problem. Redownloaded, got matching file sizes and matching hashes.
To address one part of if "the published hash is incorrect, only the publisher will really know", I compared filesizes and hashes at a few mirrors. All were equal.
I know that's not a guarantee that the iso is untainted and the hash matching the tainted file hasn't been replaced in all locations - but if not all iso filesizes and hashes on several sources match, that is a guarantee that there is some problem. Since some (all?) mirrors lag or fake mirrors with tainted iso's could be online (as happened for a day or so to a prominent distro last year), this would be a way to avoid that.
I guess there is a more secure way to download, but it's still on my list to learn how to do that, and how and why it's more secure. I don't know if torrenting is any more secure than the steps I laid out above - but once set up, I guess it would be less manual. Still learning.
49 • Linux over by the time. (by Lee X Noo on 2017-11-22 05:52:09 GMT from Canada)
Over by three decades, linux has traveled a very long way so far. Over by three decades, lots of things are changed.
Most of the varieties of distro you see today can be traced back to Debian or Slackware (SlackO). Under the hood apt (debian), rpm (RedHat), yast (SuSe) are the same, just different T-shirt.
Prior to 2009, developers goal was different that today. Somewhere in 2009 developers goal was mixed with other objectives too where as Debian, RedHat, or SuSE failed to sustain as a good ones anymore. Where as other derivatives derived from these three comes with additional ingredients. There are bunch of developers are busy-busy in bundling binary blobs in to kernel to hog the memory, over by time just kernel source went up from 1 MB to almost 650 MB. Where are other group is busy-busy in removing binary blobs.
Feel yourself luck one, if you really find a distro that works for you. Good Luck!
50 • Post # 39 .... SUSE Tumbleweed (by Post # 39 on 2017-11-22 05:55:07 GMT from United States)
The problems described in post # 39 all seem to involve the Gnome edition of Tumbleweed.
I have had SUSE Tumbleweed with LXQt installed for about a year now and have not experienced any problems after disabling the Packman repository .... other than PCmanFM-Qt not launching in its latest version. (This is also happening in another distribution though,to be fair.)
Fit and finish are not the first two words which pop into my mind when dealing with Gnome 3 in any distribution which I have used so far. Furthermore,the tools in the operating system (using LXQT) are mostly assembled in a simple,easy to access,streamlined menu .... broken down by category. All easily launched with a couple of clicks. Boots up in no time these days. I am not a huge systemD supporter but,otherwise,Tumbleweed suits my needs very well.
I don't have a 4k computer monitor but,I have found PClinuxOS to be my go-to for video related tasks. For the most part though,I deal with high resolution video using home theater equipment.
51 • @50 Tumbleweed (by linuxista on 2017-11-22 06:13:46 GMT from United States)
Fit and finish in Arch and Fedora are excellent. At least far superior to Tumbleweed. Nice attempt at burying the differences. For a lot of people Gnome is quite relevant, and it's the default and promoted by Tumbleweed that it gets the newest Gnome first. Too bad it's a mess.
Network Manager is not to Gnome. Another nice try. Sorry to present a case that's creating cognitive dissonance. But the accumulation of paper cuts and general kludginess of the user experience made me quite annoyed with it by the end.
Furthermore, to say that Tumbleweed is stable as long as you don't use the extensive packman repo with all the free/non-free audio/video apps is completely unreasonable for the vast majority of typical desktop users. That was a whole other can of worms. Among other issues, one of the package conflicts forced me to uninstall conky and the conflict wasn't resolved for a full month.
52 • @50 Tumbleweed typo (by linuxista on 2017-11-22 06:15:57 GMT from United States)
2nd paragraph should say: Network Manager is not EXCLUSIVE to Gnome. (bad markdown attempt)
53 • ARM Desktops (by Eamon Morgan on 2017-11-22 06:58:51 GMT from Slovakia)
My only PC is a Raspberry Pi 3 running retropie / kodi & xfce desktop from an SSD. It outperforms most windows 10 computers for most usual daily tasks.
54 • Post # 51 (by Winchester on 2017-11-22 10:10:50 GMT from United States)
I am not "burying" any differences. I am saying as clearly as I can at this point that they (the differences that you point out) are not there using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed with LXQt.
That's completely regardless of any promotion or regardless of any default .... neither of which have any bearing on the operation of Tumbleweed under LXQt. I don't believe that Gnome is actually the default for OpenSUSE. The installation media gives you four choices. The official download page offers both KDE and Gnome.
I have never had a single problem with my network connection while using the distribution on my desktop computer. Maybe that's because I use a wired connection. I don't know but,I do know that the distribution works perfectly fine for my set-up and I have always been able to access the internet.
Also,I don't understand your vague references to "fit and finish". Look and feel maybe?? Like I said,I prefer a good looking functional panel with an applications / system menu. Maybe a couple of applets such as a clock etc. . Maybe a quick launch bar or secondary panel. Right-clicking on an empty area of the desktop as an additional,optional way to launch software. That's it. That is my idea of good "fit and finish". Apparently,other people prefer something different for whatever reason.
55 • @54 Tumbleweed (by linuxista on 2017-11-22 14:33:05 GMT from United States)
The whole reason I tried Tumbleweed in the first place was because of the very same theoretical argument you make: that Tumbleweed, with OpenQA, should be the most stable rolling release. Turns out, it's a nice sales pitch, but in real life it was buggy and problematic. To contrast exact same setup with Arch and Solus has been polished, stable and uneventful. Go ahead and keep using it if you like it. For me, my time with Suse completely satisfied my curiosity about their offering and claims. Color me unimpressed. I won't be going that direction again.
Fedora on the other hand is extremely impressive so far. May be the closest thing to a point release distro that is current and updates enough to be almost rolling.
56 • @55 - Fedora is almost rolling (by Hoos on 2017-11-23 04:20:29 GMT from Singapore)
I agree with your comments on Fedora, although I use Korora, the respin that comes nicely configured out of the box.
The dnf commands to upgrade to the newest releases work pretty flawlessly. My install started as version 21 in 2015, it's now at version 25, and I'm due to upgrade to version 26 soon. I always do it at the end of the year, after the new release has had some time to settle.
In between, normal updates come at a rapid pace.
57 • Fedora and Gnome (by foo2foo on 2017-11-23 05:49:11 GMT from United States)
Tried Fedora 27 Gnome on a Lenovo Yoga 2 and it ran like a lame dog. Switched to the Cinnamon and it is much faster. Gnome is just so bloated and heavy.
FYSA: MX Linux 17b2 was released, but wasn’t posted on DSW. One of the major changes is an upgrade to kernel 4.13.
58 • Fedora @41 (by silent on 2017-11-23 13:28:56 GMT from France)
No, offline update with gnome-software is not a Fedora issue. Actually Ubuntu gnome-software package is patched in order to disable offline updates (bug 1546634). Offline update was the decision of gnome developers for several reasons (quoted from blogs.gnome.org): -Installing updates while the session is running causes havoc with some apps like firefox that have file resources that have not been locked (just try updating xulrunner when firefox or thunderbird is open…) -Installing library updates when apps are running against the old copies means the processed need to be restarted (gnome-session, sshd, etc) before the changes are in effect (for all users logged into the machine) -Installing core OS updates and doing OS upgrades in the running session works for most people most of the time, and then when it fails it destroys your system completely with no way to recover -Using a minimal pre-boot environment we can snapshot the system before we update the OS and afterwards (requires btrfs or something else) -Using a fresh pre-boot environment means we can easily check OS sanity before we start updating core bits of the OS, without lots of additional processes running.
59 • @41 and 58 - Fedora, gnome-software, updates (by Hoos on 2017-11-23 14:32:04 GMT from Singapore)
Isn't gnome-software more a component of Gnome 3 Desktop Environment rather than Fedora? Yes, Fedora and Gnome 3 both have Red Hat as their major sponsor or contributor, but if you use one of the official Fedora spins with another desktop environment, I doubt that you get gnome-software as the GUI frontend for package management.
Go to https://spins.fedoraproject.org/ and you'll see a screenshot of their LXQT spin with dnfdragora as their GUI frontend for package management.
Even with Gnome 3, one need not use gnome-software. Yum-extender used to be the GUI frontend for yum package manager and I installed all my updates with it while running in the same Gnome 3 graphical session and I'd never had a problem with it. I tried gnome-software once or twice, decided it was annoying and inconvenient, and never bothered with it again.
Now that yum has been replaced with DNF, the frontend has also changed to dnfdragora.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_yumex-dnf_with_dnfdragora
Nowadays I use dnf in the terminal emulator to update (while running in Gnome 3), but I don't think dnfdragora requires a reboot either. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
60 • Opinion Poll: ARM desktops and laptops (by P. Sposito on 2017-11-23 20:23:21 GMT from Asia/Pacific Region)
ARM Desktops and Laptops?
Where to get them?
You should address the following question to your poll:
"Do you plan to purchase any ARM Desktops and Laptops? "
61 • ARM Laptops (by Right Now on 2017-11-24 02:41:37 GMT from Canada)
@ #60 "ARM Desktops and Laptops? Where to get them?" ---> China, Alibaba or AliExpress.
At lease two chinese manufacturers sells with their own linux pre-installed.
62 • Pine A64 ARM powered linux laptops for US$ 89 and up! (by Right Now on 2017-11-24 02:56:35 GMT from Canada)
PINEBOOK ARM Linux Laptop Powered by Allwinner A64 Processor to Sell for $89 and Up dated 24-nov-2016
http://www.linux-arm.info/index.php/1271-pinebook-arm-linux-laptop-powered-by-allwinner-a64-processor-to-sell-for-89-and-up.
Will I buy it? Yes, only with linux. Not at all with Microsoft Windows 10, No more extra money for MS license.
63 • Debian (systemd) vs. Devuan (no systemd) (by Debie Devos on 2017-11-24 08:04:47 GMT from Canada)
Just had a chance to install debian jessie - xfce on i7 laptop. Debian choked and froze on couples of application tested including while surfing on firefox, power-off button pressed to reboot.
Then just decided to give Devuan a shot. Devuan (no-systemd) performed noticeably better than Debian (systemd) - both with xfce DE. Going with Devuan for a while just to know and feel the taste of ingredients.
64 • ARM laptop (by TheTKS on 2017-11-24 11:30:30 GMT from Canada)
I was surprised at how functional a low end Chromebook could be for everyday stuff. Got one as backup for kid's school work after regular laptop hd died.
Trying to figure out what went wrong (have my suspicions, don't have 100% clear evidence) and then reinstalling W10 finally convinced me to look into MS alternatives, which were this Chromebook and Linux & BSD.
I just made sure to warn the kids that whatever they do on a Chromebook (or their Android phones) becomes uncle Google's property. It's practically impossible to avoid Google if they wanted to, since their school system (and so group projects) is on Google apps and Chromebooks.
Now in the house: one Chromebook, one multiboot W10/Linuxes/BSD box, dual boot W10/Linux laptops, main box Linux only.
Thank you MS for making my life harder than necessary with W10, Xbox and more. You inspired me to finally try FLOSS - came to escape MS, stayed because I actually like using it.
65 • Fractured Development (compliment) (by Andy Figueroa on 2017-11-26 03:42:26 GMT from United States)
Posts 43 and 64 very different but brilliant. Thank you for meaningful comments. In my personal life, I'm Windows-free, roll my own Gentoo Linux desktops and servers, and I'm very happy having choices. One can use Linux, have bleeding edge or stable environments, but it's the users choice and users (Post #1) really shouldn't complain about what the developers are working on. How credible can a post be from one who returned to MS Windows? Good grief. :-)
Number of Comments: 65
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• Issue 1047 (2023-11-27): GhostBSD 23.10.1, Why Linux uses swap when memory is free, Ubuntu Budgie may benefit from Wayland work in Xfce, early issues with FreeBSD 14.0 |
• Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
• Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
• Issue 1044 (2023-11-06): Porteus 5.01, disabling IPv6, applications unique to a Linux distro, Linux merges bcachefs, OpenELA makes source packages available |
• Issue 1043 (2023-10-30): Murena Two with privacy switches, where old files go when packages are updated, UBports on Volla phones, Mint testing Cinnamon on Wayland, Peppermint releases ARM build |
• Issue 1042 (2023-10-23): Ubuntu Cinnamon compared with Linux Mint, extending battery life on Linux, Debian resumes /usr merge, Canonical publishes fixed install media |
• Issue 1041 (2023-10-16): FydeOS 17.0, Dr.Parted 23.09, changing UIDs, Fedora partners with Slimbook, GNOME phasing out X11 sessions, Ubuntu revokes 23.10 install media |
• Full list of all issues |
Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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Random Distribution |
Openfiler
Openfiler was a storage management operating system based on rPath Linux. It was powered by the Linux kernel and open source applications such as Apache, Samba, Linux Volume Management, ext3, Linux NFS and iSCSI enterprise target. Openfiler combines these ubiquitous technologies into a small, easy-to-manage solution fronted by a powerful web-based management interface. Openfiler allows building a Network Attached Storage (NAS) and/or Storage Area Network (SAN) appliance, using industry-standard hardware, in less than 10 minutes of installation time.
Status: Discontinued
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TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
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Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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