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1 • Dev1 (by Somewhat Reticent on 2017-06-05 00:42:05 GMT from United States) |
A 1.0 release is rarely bug-free; it's stable enough to start development. Debugging thousands of repository packages will naturally take longer.
Tried it, along with several derivatives (aka spins, flavors), which were available before the 1.0 release (likely conversions from DebIan-based distros); each has some things working, other things needing work, just like the release.
One significant factor is refracta-tools, which allows changes made while live to be included in an installation.
2 • Devuan poll (by DaveW on 2017-06-05 00:46:28 GMT from United States)
I took a look at Devuan and down-rated it because the software versions, particularly LibreOffice, are old. Other than that, it would have been acceptable. I'll take another look at it if they produce another release, soon, with newer application versions.
3 • Devuan and MATE (by GNUser on 2017-06-05 01:26:09 GMT from United States)
MATE in *Devuan's* repository does *not* depend on systemd, but MATE in Debian's repository does. That's why the reviewer had issues with MATE in the Debian-turned-Devuan trial.
4 • Devuan Test - included software (by Guido on 2017-06-05 01:40:31 GMT from Philippines)
Ex Falso is a very usable audio tagger software, which is installed with Quodlibet. It can also be used without this player. On launchpad is the latest version for Ubuntu etc.
5 • Review: Devuan 1.0.0 -- Debian without systemd (by Marcus Coles on 2017-06-05 01:48:25 GMT from Canada)
I think your opinion of the fresh install of Devuan 1.0.0 might have been more positive if you had installed from one of the "install" disks rather than the live one.
I would suggest the DVD using the "Graphical Expert Install" it is the familiar Debian installer with minor changes and one wishing to install more modern applications can select to check the enable "backports" repositories box. Using Synaptic or apt-get update and apt-get upgrade after the install to freshen up the packages with more modern versions.
I found what was written was a very reasonable review, but feel the whole picture was not observed.
In all fairness I think a proper DVD install would paint a somewhat different picture and eliminate most if not all of the criticisms.
6 • Devuan (by gekxxx on 2017-06-05 01:53:25 GMT from Belgium)
Do not get me wrong. I will not use Devuan as I trust Debian in their decision to change to systemd. My Debian Sid runs like charm so why changing?
7 • Devuan and Debian (by bison on 2017-06-05 02:29:42 GMT from United States)
> If Devuan 2 can be launched shortly after Debian 9 comes out later this year ...
Does Devuan plan to continue tracking Debian, or do they intend to diverge? I've heard both, but I'm not sure which one is correct.
8 • Debian-turned-Devuan (by Tran Older on 2017-06-05 02:43:07 GMT from Vietnam)
1. Install deepin 15.3
2. Follow the migration instructions provided in the Devuan release notes.
Choose LightDM and not Devuan's Slim DM.
3. You will have a Devuan system with Google Chrome, WPS Office (no prospect for an upgrade) and some cool icons and wallpapers.
9 • Silly Devuan Tricks (by bigbenaugust on 2017-06-05 03:07:32 GMT from United States)
I installed Devuan in a VM the other day (using the regular graphical install) and added the BunsenLabs repositories, then installed bunsen-meta-all for the OpenBox desktop and all. Worked like a champ. I may yet retry it on hardware to see if everything really works.
10 • Devuan and non-systemd distros. (by Bobbie Sellers on 2017-06-05 04:03:58 GMT from United States)
I tried out Devuan and an error in my booting trashed my test bed's setup of Grub2
on my salvaged Dell E6420. That will take me several days work to remedy.
Now apparently systemd takes a lot of adjustment to the rest of system because I have
noticed that systemd distros take longer to get out.
Finally someone asks if non-systemd distros are sustainable.
That depends on whether or not the uses support these distribution
and the coders who put them together. I used to spend $50/year
to get my Mandriva PowerPack editions (with some non-free software.
Now I am spending about $60/year in donations to support
the PCLinux efforts. I would happily give more but due to a life
wasted at low-paying and volunteer jobs I am living on Social
Support the distributions you believe in is my point,
Presently I am using PCLinuxOS64 2016.03 and will be using,
when KDE finishes the finer points of the DE, the PCLinuxOS64
with KDE 5 and both these systems are on my Dell as well as
Peppermint 8, Mageia 6 RC1, Open Mandriva which was trashed
by the first updates, Debian 8.8.0, and Grub2 trashing Devuan
While on my work machine a HP Pavilion with AMD 10 and 12 GiB of
ram I am still having a good time with PCLinuxOS64 2016.03
bliss "running (fast as well) and light" on PCLinuxOS64-2016.03
GNU/Linux 4.11.3-pclos1 #1 SMP Thu May 25
11 • using Devuan (by david esktorp on 2017-06-05 04:04:34 GMT from United States)
I used Devuan's graphical install (not the live disc) and it went well.
I found a few bugs, but nothing show-stopping for me:
Audacious crashes when I try to use visualizations.
The flash plugin provided by the repository (flash-plugin-nonfree) does not work. Possibly installing it in the wrong location, but I didn't really investigate since I don't need flash. Definitely a show-stopper for normies.
Flushed pulseaudio down the toilet but that didn't fix any of the abnormal problems.
I basically must agree with the conclusion that it feels dated (feelsdatedman.jpeg?) but I suppose we can't spell stable without stale. I don't know why I expected Xfce 4.12-- I really miss the middle-click to close feature. :(
I will probably keep using it for a while and I will definitely keep it on my radar if I switch.
Despite its tardiness, it's working way better than I expected. I hope they completely diverge and stop forking Debian. It's a burnable bridge at this point, because the integrity of the final product is weakened by the systemd removal surgery. Like with pulseaudio, it's removable, but it'd be better if it were never there to begin with.
12 • Devuan impressions (by Brenton Horne on 2017-06-05 04:15:31 GMT from Australia)
Seems like a decent distro, although honestly from a typical end-user (i.e., one that seldom, if ever, tweaks with the init system and doesn't really care, from a philosophical or practical point of view, which init system is being used) point of view the only real difference from Debian is possible stability issues (never noticed one myself but only used for ~20 mins in a VM by now) and a more limited array of desktop environments (DEs) from which to choose from the installer. Although the DEs the installer doesn't offer (that Debian does have) can be installed with APT after the system is installed.
13 • Devuan review (by rambling robin on 2017-06-05 04:55:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
As stated in @5 the best way to install is from the traditional installer iso rather than the live media. I think if you are using a fresh/empty disk the refracta image thingy may work, but on a disk with data in separate /home the installer failed to create the user name I required and insisted on creating one called devuan - also broke grub. By no means the first time it has happened with a live installer so not too bothered. Using standard Debian install it just works.
After basic install of xfce ran tasksel and installed LXDE, then added Trinity Desktop repos and added Trinity - my normal working world via Q4OS - and it just works.
Installed wine/playonlinux and stuff I use is all OK
@11 there's a general problem with flash-plugin in Jessie at the moment. I don't use it but best solution is Chromium + pepper-flash (or don't use it at all which is even better)
The only area I've found a bit weak is the init tools for controlling services which resulted in LXDE throwing errors about object ownership????
Other than that I'd say it's just doing exactly what it says on the tin - Debian Stable, no systemd - so I'm quite happy to do another rebuild then carry on using it.
14 • Devuan (by Gary W on 2017-06-05 07:24:37 GMT from Australia)
I tried Devuan, and it was OK. I also tried a couple of its derivatives (notably Refracta) and they were OK too.
Its biggest problem is the same as Debian's biggest problem: stale packages. A desktop user would have to be very conservative to want either one. If Devuan can put together a "testing" variant like Debian does, I'd be happy to try that.
But in the meantime, I'm getting much more enjoyment and modern software (excluding systemd) from MX Linux.
15 • devuan does have up-to-date packages (by ac-1958 on 2017-06-05 07:57:06 GMT from United States)
Jesse's review and some comments mislead readers about the availability of up-to-date packages in devuan. My experience is that devuan does have testing and backports branches almost identical to debian's. Jesse complained about the old kernel version, but devuan offers multiple 4.x kernels up to 4.9 (one of which I'm using).
I've been following the hiccups in devuan for over a year and have been using it on my main laptop since December. My only concern during that period stemmed from two or three lapses in stuff like updating certificates. My only reservation about using devuan is that they get reliable support for their infrastructure to cover demand.
16 • Devuan (by zephyr on 2017-06-05 08:45:25 GMT from United States)
Devuan is everything that Debian should be!
17 • @Devuan by Gary W (by zcatav on 2017-06-05 09:52:14 GMT from Turkey)
>> If Devuan can put together a "testing" variant like Debian does, I'd be happy to try that.<<
"Devuan aliases its releases using minor planet names as codenames. Devuan file names follow this release naming scheme.
current stable is “Jessie” (planet nr.10464)
current testing is “Ascii” (planet nr.3568)
unstable is “Ceres” (planet nr.1)"
Devuan contains Debian variant except Experimental!
You will be happy.
18 • Devuan Jessie Review (by RJules3 on 2017-06-05 10:28:41 GMT from Germany)
The description 'Devuan - Debian without systemd' is neglecting the most important difference between these two distributions. Devuan's motto 'Software Freedom Your Way' is meant seriously (as far as I can see it). The most important difference is the freedom of choice. Devuan (better the Veteran Unix Admins) didn't accept the removal of choice of the init system. Hopefully this 'idea' will succeed and Devuan as well.
19 • @13 and @5 (by OstroL on 2017-06-05 11:00:25 GMT from Poland)
> As stated in @5 the best way to install is from the traditional installer iso rather than the live media.<
Can you explain why?
If the live iso has an installer, all it does is copying the files in the live folder, creating a user, adding the new user's password, adding where you live, taking off the live part of the live iso etc. If the installer is good, it'd even help to partition your drive.
You can simply do all these manually. Its the installer, not the squashed file that troubles you. If the installer asks questions, and you can answer them, and it finally installs the distro for you, then it is a good installer. It doesn't matter, if the installer is eye-candy one or a text one, as far as it is doing its work well.
20 • @14 Devuan Testing (by lenn on 2017-06-05 11:08:01 GMT from United States)
Just download Nelum-Dev1-XFCE-64-Testing.iso, install it and update and upgrade it. And you have a up to date Testing Devuan.
21 • Devuan developers' opinion of systemd (by Alexandre Dumas on 2017-06-05 11:22:19 GMT from Australia)
Jesse wrote: "Some people were unhappy with the transition from the previous init implementation (SysV) to the newer systemd software."
LOL, Jesse Smith, master of understatement!
22 • Devuan live media installer (by rambling robin on 2017-06-05 12:21:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's not a case of eye candy - it's a case of functionality.
The live-media installer does not seem to be able to cope with a drive which has existing partitions one of which you want to retain and not format.
When I have tried it by using the don't create home option it keeps the drive structure but messes up the user install and breaks grub when it installs it. If you use the create home option it wants to format it.
Like I said - it probably works fine on a blank/reformatable disk - I can't be bothered messing with it as I've seen too many of these things just not work outside their one trick. I suppose the standard installer is also far more familiar - cos it woks
23 • Devuan (by Jordan on 2017-06-05 12:22:39 GMT from United States)
Looks very interesting, and am glad there is ongoing effort out there to develop non-systemd distros.
No "plans" to try Devuan, but I'm open to it happening at some point down the line. I wouldn't mind putting it in one of my laptops and sending in bug reports and feedback etc.
24 • Devuan (by a on 2017-06-05 12:55:10 GMT from France)
I’m very glad that Devuan exists, as well as the other systemd-free distros. That said I had to answer "other" to the poll because while I have no "plan" to use it, I may very well use it in the future when/if I stop using Gentoo.
I tried Devuan 1.0 in Virtualbox and I very quickly noticed an issue: no support for my keyboard layout in the installer. So I thought I’d report the issue to them. Should be a very quick fix and make Devuan better. But… No link to a bugtracker on devuan.org. What? I then searched the web for "devuan bugtracker" and found a page that seemed to imply Devuan bugs are reported and tracked with… emails. Urgh. They should really set up a real web bugtracker.
25 • Devuan (by kc1di on 2017-06-05 12:58:13 GMT from United States)
Tried it and found it to be too much out of date for my needs. back to mint.
26 • @22 (by OstroL on 2017-06-05 13:17:11 GMT from Poland)
>Like I said - it probably works fine on a blank/reformatable disk - I can't be bothered messing with it as...<
Its all about "messing with" here in Linux--that's te beauty of it. With the "other OS" installs, either you throw the computer away, if the Win doesn't install, or throw lot of money away buying a Mac. Here its just fun.
Anyway, about the installer, talk to this guy fsmithred at Dev1 Galaxy forums. He's friendly guy and would happily help you out.
Also, it'd be much fun to install without using the installer, any installer...
27 • Bug reports in Devuan, the live installer, stale packages (by KatolaZ on 2017-06-05 13:59:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
> out in the installer. So I thought I’d report the issue to them. Should be a very quick fix
> and make Devuan better. But… No link to a bugtracker on devuan.org. What? I then
> searched the web for "devuan bugtracker" and found a page that seemed to imply
> Devuan bugs are reported and tracked with… emails. Urgh. They should really set up a
>real web bugtracker.
Concerning bug reports: I understand that many people have probably never used the Debian Bug Tracking System, which has been based on email reports since 1994. The very same software is used as a BTS by different projects (including the GNU Project: http://debbugs.gnu.org) and Devuan is using it as well (http://bugs.devuan.org). You know, that same BTS has managed to deal with just about 800K bug reports for Debian so far, and will probably manage the next few millions as well. This is the reason why Devuan opted for it. Being "new" is not always a guarantee for being "adequate", or "stable", or "fit-for-purpose", or "reliable".
Concerning the live installer, or any other bug you might encounter using Devuan Jessie 1.0.0: please report issues to http://bugs.devuan.org, using the usual "reportbug" tool. It would be great to receive as much feedback as possible, in order to fix glitches.
Concerning stale packages: this same critics could be moved to Debian Jessie, form which Devuan Jessie is derived :-) Devuan is already actively working on ASCII,the next stable, and the backports repos in Jessie are usable and provide upgrades for many packages.
28 • Re: Devuan live media installer (by eco2geek on 2017-06-05 15:21:39 GMT from United States)
> The live-media installer does not seem to be able to cope with a drive which has existing
> partitions one of which you want to retain and not format.
That was not my experience. I like to try out new distros, so I have over a dozen partitions on my hard drive. I reformatted one of them prior to running the Devuan installer. (I installed Devuan 1.0 rc 1, actually, not the final release.) I didn't tell it to use a separate /home partition. I also told the installer to put GRUB on the partition, not the MBR.
The installer didn't install GRUB to the partition like it should have, but it did leave the GRUB that was already installed to the MBR alone. (I was ready with a boot repair disc just in case.) I installed GRUB to the partition manually post-install. The installer didn't do anything to any of the other partitions on my computer.
(FWIW, after a "dist-upgrade", I can tell you that the "Slim" login manager does in fact prompt you for your username and password. It's not just an empty box on an otherwise blank screen.)
29 • Debian Flash (by luvr on 2017-06-05 15:26:12 GMT from Belgium)
@11 The flash-plugin-nonfree package in Debian Jessie wouldn't be particularly useful, even if it could successfully be installed in the first place, because as it stands, it will not automatically keep the flash plugin updated anyway.
I had to install the flash plugin because www.schooltv.nl requires it. Ubuntu has a working flash plugin package, so I installed it there. Out of curiosity, I then took a closer look at how I could get the flash plugin under Debian--see my earlier comment at http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20170417&mode=67#comment-39.
I have since cobbled together a shell script that mimics the behaviour of the Debian package as closely as possible, including integration with the Debian Alternatives infrastructure.
Recently, I got an error when viewing one of the schooltv.nl pages, in that it complained that "er is iets fout gegaan bij het laden van de NPO Player" ("something went wrong while attempting to load the NPO Player"). Turned out that the Firefox ESR version (i.e., 45.9.something) under Debian testing is too old to view the page. I therefore downloaded Firefox 53.0.3 directly from Mozilla, and now it works. I'm looking into integrating this copy of Firefox into the Debian Alternatives infrastructure as well, and I would like to make it available system-wide (i.e., for all users), while still being able to update it (using the built-in Firefox update feature, instead of having to download a fresh copy from the Mozilla site for each update) without having to run Firefox as root.
30 • Irony - Distrowatch "no systemd" search results do not include Devuan... (by Hoos on 2017-06-05 16:33:57 GMT from Singapore)
...because there are systemd packages in its repositories and it avoids using systemd for the init service by having system-shim.
This is ironic when one considers how strongly Devuan felt about coming up with a no systemd version/fork of Debian.
Similarly with Debian-based MX Linux which also eschews systemd init the same way, yet does not show up in said search results. They may be various other distros in the same boat,
This shows up the inadequacy of DW's current search method for displaying distros that don't use systemd for init. It merely searches for distros that do not have systemd packages AT ALL, and you can see this doesn't paint an accurate picture.
May I request that DW rejigs its search page to have an additional section where one can search by init service used - there's sysvinit, systemd, runit, openrc, and possibly more (???) which I don't know anything about.
31 • *Mint and Cinnamon (by Corentin on 2017-06-05 18:34:08 GMT from France)
> "Cinnamon was upgraded to version 3.4"
Mint, the 'creator' of Cinnamon has not the last version of its baby yet??? Manjaro has already v3.4.x...
32 • Cinnamon Releases (by M.Z. on 2017-06-05 20:41:08 GMT from United States)
"Mint, the 'creator' of Cinnamon has not the last version of its baby yet???"
Of course not, they release the Cinnamon Desktop well before the release of the next version of their main edition & then try to do a fair amount of additional polish. The only thing odd to me is that LMDE didn't get version 3.4 before Manjaro. I just checked & my copy of LMDE is still on 3.2, which is odd given that 3.4 was released weeks ago; however, if more cutting edge 'rolling' distros are helping to get extra polish on Cinnamon & I still get it before the main edition then all is good.
33 • Devuan Poll (by cykodrone on 2017-06-05 21:26:20 GMT from Canada)
I've been using Devuan since the first beta release and have had very few problems, that being said, I still don't find it as 'pure' as antiX, if Devuan gets more residual systemd files polluted, I will definitely be switching to antiX, the jury is still out but I'm not holding my breath. I voted "I am currently using Devuan and plan to continue"...with conditions.
34 • Stretch (by Bob Anderson on 2017-06-05 21:27:16 GMT from Finland)
As the planned Debian 9 release is a few weeks away I already upgraded to Devuan Ascii on my HTPC - a very simple upgrade for my particular setup.
35 • List of systemd-free distros (by Alexandre Dumas on 2017-06-05 23:17:59 GMT from Australia)
@30, see http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page for a growing list of systemd-free distros.
For a rolling-release distro with NetworkManager working fine, all Gentoo packages available and helpful developers, try Calculate Linux!
36 • @32 (by Corentin on 2017-06-05 23:27:43 GMT from France)
> " The only thing odd to me is that LMDE didn't get version 3.4 before Manjaro. I just checked & my copy of LMDE is still on 3.2, which is odd given that 3.4 was released weeks ago"
I agree, I was thinking about that...
> "however, if more cutting edge 'rolling' distros are helping to get extra polish on Cinnamon"
Eh eh... In Manjaro, Cinnamon is quite good and relatively well polished...
37 • Devuan Jessie is just Debian Jessie without Systemd (by Antonio Gallo on 2017-06-06 00:08:00 GMT from Italy)
I don't understand why to publish a full review. Devuan Jessie is just Debian Jessie with 200/300 packages recompiled to avoid systemd.
It will really start to become something different, i think, with the next release: Ascii.
Meanwhile its good to migrade Wheezy servers directly to Devuan.
For desktop usage i've never been a Debian fans because stable has too old outdate packages, so the same goes with Devuan plus the lack of systemd has not been compensated yet.
I hope they get rid of pulseaudio too with the next release.
38 • Lay the systemd issue to rest at last (by MVaz on 2017-06-06 01:59:42 GMT from United States)
First, nice review.
Second, with comments like:
a. "The boot times of both systems were identical, to within a second. In short, boot times, disk usage and memory footprints were near enough to being the same as to make no practical difference."
b. "The distribution offers users an operating system virtually identical to Debian 8, but with systemd replaced with SysV init"
We can only hope those non-sense systemd rants will come to an end.
Like the reviewer points, releasing a Debian derivate based on the current (and soon to be old) release, instead of hold it a little longer and released a simultaneous Debian 9 based distribution would have been better imo. My other concern is the longetivity due to the project already mentioned that some desktops have some issues due to lack of systemd. And that incompatibilities will only get worse as more software gets ported to it. Practically all major Linux distributions had made the switch, only leaving small hobyst ones and FreeBSD. And the later is working on their own systemd style replacement las time I checked. So pardon me, but don't see any future in non-systemd systems in the long term.
39 • Systemd free devuan (by Antonio on 2017-06-06 02:03:14 GMT from United States)
I have downloaded it in case it is needed later on. I do not have experience with debian itself, but used Knoppix and Kanotix a few times they were awesome. I also used Mandrake before it became Mandriva. As of know, I would question why is it not more known about the distro called Guix which has alternate startup/init scripts? I have tried heads 0.2 like Tails but without systemd. It works very well!
40 • Pulseaudio and friends (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2017-06-06 02:23:14 GMT from United States)
I suggest pulseaudio would never have gained a hold if ALSA (or OSS) developers had provided a user-viable GUI (even if ugly), plain-text self-documenting scripts, or even a comprehensible (un_obfuscated) Full_Manual - and kept up with well-documented hardware developments.
Of course, many projects stagnate once the glow wears off. Developers have at least made it functional for common use_cases, pushing through agony to clean up the original buggy snarl somewhat.
Likewise, don't expect people to eagerly settle for retreating to nothing more than tinny 70's stereo in a single-process system.
The challenge with defenestrating systemd this late is that any upstream projects that have begun to assimilate XML-based process_management (aka intertwine systemd inter_dependencies) have also become that much more (grating) work to detangle. An uphill push, perhaps, but extremely valuable to the community - at least, anyone not automating server_farm management, unless you regard everyone else's circuits as (at least potentially) part of your farm? Better late than never.
41 • Devuan (by Scuttlebuck on 2017-06-06 02:53:59 GMT from Nicaragua)
I have installed Devuan and run it for 2 days.....it worked ok had no issues and it's great that there is another non systemd distro ........(I don't have an issue with Systemd apart from it being forced on people)
Will I keep Devuan ..probably not i have never been a Debian man
I use Gentoo and Calculate, as mentioned @35 above ...i have Void and Slackware and Salix
@40 Oh Yes i totally agree ALSA was terrible to work with ....Then i've never been too lucky with Pulseaudio but it has improved ...Just as well i don't use my comp for anything that requires quality audio
42 • Devuan (by Ronald Buckman on 2017-06-06 03:53:33 GMT from United States)
I had Devuan beta 2 on two computers for a while. One with Xfce, and the other with LXDE. It, worked well for the most part, except I had to install Google Chrome to get Flash to work and keep it updated. The desktops are more lightweight then the same desktops on an Ubuntu base. I since switched my installs to Slackware 14.2, one with Xfce 4.12, the other with Openbox 3.6.1. It's working well for the most part, but I couldn't get KDE Frameworks 5 apps to display icons in Openbox, But, that would probably apply running KF5 apps in Openbox in other distros.
43 • Poll (by 2damncommon on 2017-06-06 04:54:09 GMT from United States)
You left off "I have been contributing to Devuan in Beta and again as it goes to 1.0".
44 • @35 - list of non systemd distros (by Hoos on 2017-06-06 05:47:54 GMT from Singapore)
I am very aware of the list but wanted to point out that DW could improve their own list/search function. After all, many people read DW and get introductions to some distros through this site. It would be helpful if DW's list was more accurate since it really is hilarious that Devuan of all distros is not considered "no systemd" in searches made here.
I do have Calculate Linux running in a VM, but keep to MX and Void for my main non-systemd distros in the metal. Upgrading is so much faster in MX and Void!
On the other hand, I also have systemd distros as I don't avoid them.
45 • Void linux no of packages (by Khyber on 2017-06-06 07:22:32 GMT from India)
What is the number of packages in void linux currently?
46 • non-systemd - what's the point? (by Bob on 2017-06-06 09:58:47 GMT from Austria)
What is the point for the average Linux user avoiding systemd at all cost? Looks like I absolutely won't gain anything by using Devuan. Most of the more important distros are using systemd and most users don't give a damn. I don't know the statistics but it seems that the systemd critical part of the community is a minority but way louder than the rest of us. I'll use anything which works and systemd apparently does the job since quite some time now.
47 • MATE systemd dependencies (Devuan review and @3) (by curious on 2017-06-06 10:10:53 GMT from Germany)
These *fake* systemd dependencies are possibly the most annoying thing about systemd adoption.
With these dependencies, the "choice" that a modular open source system such as Linux basically provides its users with is effectively removed - anybody who wants to use a certain desktop environment finds that he/she is (unnecessarily!) tied to using the new init system.
Why on earth does a desktop environment depend on the init system anyway?
48 • SystemD - NOT just "init" any more, i'nit! (by Kragle on 2017-06-06 11:02:41 GMT from United States)
( @46 ) You likely won't notice anything at first, like a frog in a slow-cooker.
If systemd were like any other init system, no full-court-press would have been required, and likely no hue_and_cry would have resulted
As more software is converted to systemd XML_based process_management, system complexity will increase. Historically this has been considered poor practice; Keep it Separate and Simple, as in modular, is considered better practice
As updates and "upgrade" breakages affect more packages (code) due to increasing inter_dependencies, system reliability will increasingly depend on systemd_experts. Do you plan to become one, or hire one? Will your only alternative become (your computer) joining someone's automated server-farm?
One continual cost of Freedom is Constant Vigilance.
49 • Why I switched to Linux (by cykodrone on 2017-06-06 12:51:51 GMT from Canada)
The freedom, the lack of bloat, the lack of built in spyware, way less maintenance, less vulnerable to viruses, etc. Then comes along a barnacle-ware init being pushed by a populist style campaign to adopt it (much like that of the orange human). Just take the leap they said, it's good they said, naw, not really, it has now permeated many DEs and third party apps to the point of having to 'fool' them by using 'shims' so it 'thinks' systemd is installed and in use. I left that bloated and vulnerable proprietary OS because of nonsense like this, so to me, this corporate developed piece of software, which essentially takes over your whole system, is the ghost of nightmare of OSes past. I will never forget how the systemd team tried to bully Linus in to fixing their bugs and adding proprietary hooks in to the kernel itself in an attempt of cementing a permanent path in the very core of Linux. I have never been a 'sheep' or one to blindly follow the crowd and will resist corporate barnacle-ware until Linux becomes unusable, then I will move on to something else, hopefully the BSDs don't fall victim to this mess either. When a better init comes along that doesn't require third party software to write itself around it, systemd will be a bad distant memory.
50 • Re: SystemD - NOT just "init" any more, i'nit! (by Someone on 2017-06-06 13:02:44 GMT from Germany)
@48: "systemd XML_based process_management"
systemd doesn't have an "XML-based process management". Why do you have to make things up about stuff you don't know anything about?
51 • Search page and init software (by Jesse on 2017-06-06 17:25:22 GMT from Canada)
>> "May I request that DW rejigs its search page to have an additional section where one can search by init service?"
This is a work in progress and slowly getting better. If you visit our Search page this week and select the "not systemd" quick search link, or select "Not systemd" from the Init Software field, you will get better results. It's not perfect, but we're fine-tuning it.
52 • Systemd and Devuan (by vic on 2017-06-06 19:29:06 GMT from Canada)
I just dont feel good using systemd because I didnt choose to ever use systemd, it was forced upon me, and this goes against what I like the most about linux, the freedom to choose. Aside from political reasons, I prefer OpenRC to systemd any day of the week. Its easier for me to understand and get my head around init scripts and runlevels. I didnt mind gnome 3 at all when it came out but the systemd dependency killed it for me in a big way, and I still prefer mate to gnome 3 so I've been using mate for years now.
I've been using Devuan for about a week, since 1.0 came out. I had a bit of trouble with creating my user, but thats because I just clicked through the installer without really reading xD so its my fault. Its been smooth though, I enabled the backports repo now I'm on Linux 4.9, and most of the software is pretty recent so I cant complain. I was surprised that sysvinit was the default init system and not OpenRC, but its no big deal as installing OpenRC was super easy, I just had to install it in synaptic, and reboot my system. So needless to say, I am using Devuan and will continue as long as the others are trying to force me to use systemd.
53 • Devuan (by Jessey F Lawson on 2017-06-06 20:19:59 GMT from United States)
I have not tried it yet, but I am interested. I use Linux Mint 17.3 and Mint 18.2. Mint 17 does not use SystemD at all. I have not noticed any diffrence in boot up speed from the two int systems. I am concered about the way linux is going though. SystemD and wayland are raping the linux desktop. I don't use X86 hardware so this is worrying. Does wayland even support my SGI Indigo 2 Impact yet? The reviewer must not use FreeBSD much at all. Many packages are much older then Devuan on FreeBSD. If Devuan goes beyond X86 and brings back PowerPC support in Devuan 2 then I will switch. FreeBSD, linux, Jnode it does not matter what ever OS offers me up to date packages on PPC I will support. Right now that is Linux with Debian 7/8 and Ubuntu 14.04/16.04, but when 14.04 and Debain 7 EOL's in 2019 and Debain 8/Ubuntu 16.04 EOL's in 2021 I am ether going to have to fork Ubuntu with my own repo or pay FreeBSD users to port over apps I use. Ether way it is a lose lose situation. Now back to watching youtube videos.
54 • Devuan (by DaveT on 2017-06-06 22:08:49 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm a systemd refugee from debian so my iMac runs devaun, my laptop runs debian unstable, and my servers run FreeBSD. The laptop will get trashed and rebuilt without systemd once my current work project is finished.
Happily my debian desktop at work and all our servers are still debian wheezy so I'm systemd-free at work too! I use the command-line a lot so I can run old window managers like twm happily. Xfce4 was vexing me on the devuan iMac so that is now running twm too. Runs fast!
@53 NetBSD and pkgsrc are excellent fun for getting the most up-to-date software. Try it. My old PPC iMac is 'retired' now but NetBSD worked OK.
55 • Enough Systemd Hate (by lupus on 2017-06-06 22:55:29 GMT from Germany)
Comment deleted (bad language).
56 • systemd forced (by MVaz on 2017-06-07 01:30:03 GMT from United States)
systemd is as forced as any other init system. I'm pretty sure those here that said they prefer OpenRC meet that init system by a previous Gentoo/Calculate (and derivatives), or any other distro that defaults to it.
And defauting to it is not the same as forced??? In my eyes it is.
For gentoo it was the default (and only) choice for many years.
57 • More Systemd terrorism. (by Garon on 2017-06-07 12:50:00 GMT from United States)
lupus is right. People like cykodrone, or psychodrone, or whatever you want to call him, try to scare people with a lot of nonsense. They say, Linux is being destroyed, we are losing the unix way of doing things, bla, bla, bla. and a lot more rubbish. Systemd haters can hate all they want to but don't try to force your ideas on everyone else. When you screw a system up it's real easy to blame it on systemd. I just wonder how much these people really know about systemd or about any init system. The way some of these people rant I believe they just want to be part of a minority so they can feel special. Think about it. There is a reason that systemd haters are a minority. Most people don't feel their pain. Time to grow up.
58 • Then stop these fake dependencies! (by curious on 2017-06-07 13:00:59 GMT from Germany)
I think that lots of *unease* concerning systemd (I personally don't hate it) would disappear if people did not get the impression that they were being coerced to use it.
That has nothing to do with distro X deciding to use systemd or distro Y deciding to use something else - in that case one can switch to another distro.
This has everything to do with software that DOESN'T need systemd (such as MATE, or probably any DE) reporting that it DOES, so that uninformed users lose their choice.
59 • Devuan versus MX (by Winchester on 2017-06-07 13:47:17 GMT from United States)
So,what is the difference between Devuan and MX Linux (MX-14,15,16) ??
Both of them are without systemd as I understand it.
60 • Devuan and Blu-ray (by gee7 on 2017-06-07 15:26:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Having fitted a Blu-ray player into my new computer's tower case last week, I tried getting it to work in Debian 9 Stretch but without success (Debian 9 being installed in case any experimental software needs up-to-date libraries). I much prefer distros without systemD creep, and have 3 distros on this particular rig: Devuan, Debian 9 Stretch and PCLinuxOS 2017 and am currently writing this from an old Lenova laptop using GhostBSD.
There is a little chance of me finding how to play Blu-ray disks on GhostBSD and when I tried in PCLinuxOS, I found missing dependencies. Yesterday I bought 3 Blu-ray disks for a quid each in a charity shop. I came back home and booted into Devuan, installed some Video software, and last night watched Bladerunner again and some of Supernatural Season 4 in Blu-ray. I believe it's no easy task to play Blu-ray in most Linux distros, so bonus points to Devuan. That's great, in it?
I will have another try with Debian next week.
61 • MX vs Dev1 (by FOSSilizing Dinosaur on 2017-06-07 15:42:28 GMT from United States)
(for @59 query by Winchester from U.S.)
MX is derived from DebIan, using optional (and "unsupported") non-defaults.
Devuan (and derivatives) are forked from DebIan, using different packages (aka subroutines) developed (and supported) separately.
Convergence may occur at some time in the future.
62 • fake dependencies... (by OstroL on 2017-06-07 16:37:43 GMT from Poland)
There are fake dependencies. The devs put them there, maybe to stop others from using their "creation", or to hinder, or even just for the sake. I've learnt from un-archiving lot of deb packages, that some of them could be "installed" without some of the dependencies. When I place the files of a given application in their respective directories without some of the dependencies, that are either no longer available, or cannot be installed as they are not in the repos or some other reason, that application works. By "developing" a distro into a newer one, some older applications stop working (lack of files - are "deprecated"). But, these older applications are good and should work. So, I keep some of those files that are "deprecated" and add them to the upgraded distro, if the application stops working. That way, I have applications coming even from Natty days (Ubuntu 11.04) in newest Ubuntu 17.04. Interestingly, I haven't changed the executive binary file, nor the binary dependencies of the given application.
The desktop environments are fixed to meta packages, so to install them you "have to have" those dependencies, even if you don't want them. If the Mate DE is "dependent' of systemd, but can be installed in Devuan without that dependency, means that is a fake dependency. It means the Devuan devs had taken off that systemd dependency from the control file and re-packaged to a .deb. It'd be nice, if the applications are not dependent of the desktop environment, and they should be available for any distro, or any installation.
63 • @57 Difference of opinion (by cykodrone on 2017-06-07 17:19:21 GMT from Canada)
Just because my experience, ideals and opinions are different than yours, do not make me a "terrorist, psycho, have weak Linux skills (far from it, 12 years on many different hardware formats, completely MS free for the last 7 years), a needy desire to feel 'special' or makes me a child", it means I don't like a so-called init that pretends to be an init but is really just a kernel/system enveloping version of Pulse Audio. If you want some blatant honesty, if systemd's main architect wanted to write an operating system or kernel of his own, then that what he should have done. My main issue is that it's developed and maintained by a leading COMMERCIAL distro, who's main goal is to get and keep as much market share as possible (I don't like the fact they can pull the GPL any time, which will put independent distributions in to a tail spin). Even if it was privately developed and maintained, I'm still not comfortable with an init having networking capabilities, non human readable log files (which it's selective about creating or keeping), among other things. If you are happy with what you prefer, that's good, but that does not give your the right to rain on my opinion or experience.
64 • SystemD Stuff & Other FUD (by M.Z. on 2017-06-07 18:09:31 GMT from United States)
I find it ironic that the distro being discussed this week was created entirely to give people the option of a systemd free version of one of the most popular versions of Linux; however, several people still complain of being 'forced' into using systemd. How does that work? It makes no rational sense to me. To take the high road all you have to do is recognize that you have the choice & be vocal about how good it is, rather than hating on systemd. Personally I'm glad the choice is there, I just wish people would accept that it exists rather than complaining about a problem that is being solved.
@58 & 62 - fake dependencies
To my mind, the problem you seem to be describing is entirely created by the devs of certain distros. For that reason it should be exclusive to those distros & a non issue. I know that PCLinuxOS has a MATE version available & it doesn't use systemd, much like their KDE 5 version. Neither DE truly 'depends' on systemd; however, it seems that certain distros that _Already_ use systemd want to use some of the functionality in that init system in the version of the DE they package. Apparently there are some interchangeable parts, but if you pick a systemd free distro you get the DE you want without any extra init dependencies.
My question is why complain when a distro you know uses systemd uses it for a desktop? If you didn't want that distro because of systemd & the other options already exist & work, why not use the distro you like & support it so the devs can keep your DE systemd free in the future? Sorry, I think this is another non-issue.
@53 Wayland? Really?
"SystemD and wayland are raping the linux desktop."
WOW. I mean, hating on Wayland when it barely exists out there in the wild? Also that was truly nasty.
Look, X11 is based on technology from the 1980s & many of the people on the inside doing development on it want a better alternative because they consider X to be both ancient & extremely complex. If the chief complaint about systemd is complexity, why are you complaining about being given the option to use a far simpler display server, that is also backward compatible?
Personally I would like to have a simpler, better performing, more secure, tear free, easy to maintain, & modern display server that is built with the future in mind while being backward compatible. I could care less about systemd, but I want Wayland & I want it to work well on as much hardware as possible & with as many desktops as possible.
All that being said, I can't see X11 going away anytime soon, especially give how few systems actually ship with Wayland right now. Why invent a threat? I think seeing the positive opportunity is far better than being stuck in the past complaining about how some ancient (by computer standards) code might be replaced one day.
65 • Bad FUD (by M.Z. on 2017-06-07 18:36:11 GMT from United States)
So hating on Red Hat because they make a buck while giving away the code you use is your big issue? People need to eat & can't all code for free as a part of some crazy anarchist GNU/Software collective. Indeed the coders & devs that make Linux work deserve good pay. Given the very existence of Devuan, it seems apparent that Red Had code like systemd can be stripped out & removed just like any other & the code could also be modified under the terms of the GPL. As far as I'm concerned Red Hat is a good company who is trying to make money ethically. If you have proof that they did something worse than code some GPL software you didn't like, please give it.
"...I don't like the fact they can pull the GPL any time..."
You can't revoke the GPL retroactively. If it was released under the GPL in version 1.x, then that code stays under the GPL. Also who told you that Red Hat released any code under any license that wasn't open source? I have heard that kind of talk before, but the only thing I see that Red Hat has done with closed source software is release it under an open source license as soon as they buy a company that makes proprietary code. That is of course the exact opposite of what you are trying to claim they _Might_ do. That of course makes your fears look like they have very little credibility.
All that being said, Red Hat's strong support for Gnome has contributed to creating a useless monster of a DE & I wouldn't mind at all if Gnome died. So I guess nobody is perfect.
66 • @64 (by OstroL on 2017-06-07 19:19:59 GMT from Poland)
" If the Mate DE is "dependent" of systemd, but can be installed in Devuan without that dependency, means that is a fake dependency. "
There is an "If" in the sentence.
If I am using an installation based of Ubuntu 17.04, then it has systemd, so I don't have anything against systemd.
If you have an application you like, and you don't want it to die because of the upgrade process, you have to make apt not see it.
If we are taking this Mate as an example, it is dependent on systemd in one distro/os, and in NOT dependent on systemd in another, then something is wrong in the "dependency" matter. In a way, one can deduce that there is a fake dependency.
If we are using Linux, we should be able to use any freely available Linux applications, but without any other applications we don't need. But, most of such applications have other "dependent" applications. Should that be?
67 • independenced (by Justin on 2017-06-07 20:02:12 GMT from United States)
(This is humor, people)
It seems national sovereignty will soon depend on systemd:
68 • More FUD (by Someone on 2017-06-07 20:38:48 GMT from Germany)
@63: "I don't like the fact they can pull the GPL any time":
No, Red Hat can't "pull the GPL" as they are not the sole copyright holder and cannot change the license without agreement from other copyright holders. Also note that Red Hat doesn't hold the copyright for systemd, but individual people do.
The "Red Hat can change everything to a proprietary license" myth is just more FUD. (Aud given FUD is a Microsoft tactic: are systemd haters paid shills by Microsoft under the ideas from the Halloween documents???2?)
"My main issue is that it's developed and maintained by a leading COMMERCIAL distro":
I suggest stopping using Linux then: the kernel is mainly developed by COMMERCIAL companies these days.
69 • Systemd nation @ 67 are we independent? (by Antonio on 2017-06-07 21:33:44 GMT from United States)
Can we place some sanctions vs that new nation called Systemdistan?
Can we runit to /dev/null? The process of systemd was an init manager, but it has done much more than that. Some folks say it is a cancer, while others believe it is a fungus. It is a big momster slowly taking over everything. Why have a government and a president, just let systemd tule
70 • OSS arguments (by peaceable on 2017-06-08 06:22:27 GMT from Australia)
If you want to know why there are endless arguments here, this could explain why:
The open source community is nasty and that's just the docs:
71 • @59, 61 - difference between MX and Devuan (by Hoos on 2017-06-08 08:49:14 GMT from Singapore)
This is from Section 1.6 of the MX Linux manual. While the comparison is to Debian, it is also applicable to Devuan (except for the systemd part):
"Debian Stable is a wonderful solid distribution that can be upgraded in place from version to version automatically as long as the Debian Stable repos are used exclusively. MX uses Debian Stable as a base, but updates a lot of the userland programs & libraries, and backports newer programs from testing by building them against the Stable base. That gives a better user experience but interferes with Debian’s dist-upgrade path. Our current choice to stick with sysvinit instead of going to full systemd also interferes with that path.
So it’s a trade-off: better desktop user experience at the expense of having to do a quick fresh install (which lets you save /home if desired) when the Debian base changes, typically every 2-3 years. "
MX does not just have newer packages from Debian Backports; it also has versions of packages and applications that may not be found in Debian at all. Plus it has a lot of its own GUI tools, live USB/iso tools, and pre-installed codecs and drivers to make things easier for users OOTB. This is very helpful for relative beginners and non-techy users of Linux.
And by the way, MX's wiki has a very balanced writeup on systemd and in fact gives the user a guide as to how to switch an MX installation to using systemd as init. They caution that it won't be a perfect switch (in particular some of MX's live/iso tools were designed to work specifically with sysvinit) but they give interested users the information for those who want to experiment and try stuff out.
My position is that MX Linux is a good distro, regardless of what init it uses. I also like their balanced approach. On the other hand, there are also quite a few systemd distros that I find good as well, e.g. Manjaro, Korora.
I am all for choice and keeping one's options open, so I'm glad there are good distros using different init managers.
72 • Previous Post (#71) (by Winchester on 2017-06-08 13:40:08 GMT from United States)
Yet,MX-Linux is not listed here in the "Beginner Friendly" category.
There are probably at least 5 or 10 distributions that I feel should be added to that category .... and maybe a few that could be removed from the category.
73 • Systemd fancy arguments and spin (by cykodrone on 2017-06-08 17:56:23 GMT from Canada)
The systemd developers work for RH, anybody knows anything made while in the employ of a corporation belongs to said corporation (GPL or not). Now I'll deal with the yanking the GPL spin, nobody ever mentioned "retroactively" cancelling the GPL, but if it were to be cancelled tomorrow, that would freeze it at its last known GPL version, unless some charitable souls were to take that version over and continue to maintain it (which would directly cause a 'Franken-fork), it would yes, wreak havoc among distros that have blindly become dependent on it, same with the third party DEs and programs that have caved to systemd and wrote their code around it. I don't make comments on this site unless I've researched anything I say thoroughly, so you are in reality, you're not calling me a FUD spreader, you are calling tech journalists and developers FUD spreaders. It's a well know fact RH has been approached by the NSA, and are NSA friendly, hence my disdain for systemd having networking capabilities. Why does a so-called 'init' need to 'phone' anywhere?
74 • Re: Systemd fancy arguments and spin (by Someone on 2017-06-08 18:22:15 GMT from Germany)
@73: "The systemd developers work for RH"
Not all of them. Which means RH cannot change the license (also not for new releases). Otherwise RH could also just change the license of the Linux kernel, after all some kernel developers work for RH.
"anybody knows anything made while in the employ of a corporation belongs to said corporation (GPL or not)"
Depends on your contract. Btw, systemd's source files don't say that RH owns the copyright.
"Why does a so-called 'init' need to 'phone' anywhere?"
The 'init' part doesn't. Please do your research and try to get your facts right.
That clients for DHCP, DNS or NTP speak to the network should not be a surprise. systemd provides those if one wishes to use them (but for example Debian doesn't use them by default).
75 • @73 - "cancelled"? (by Hoos on 2017-06-08 18:39:16 GMT from Singapore)
If by "cancelled" you mean the RH-employees working on systemd stop contributing to it completely, why would other developers still working on it need to fork it? It's still systemd, innit? (sorry for the bad pun!)
76 • systemd FUD (by Jordan on 2017-06-08 19:36:20 GMT from United States)
It occurs to me that no matter which end of the systemd discussion speaks to us and causes us agreement, the whole damned discussion itself is FUD, and sometimes Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are well needed in making choices.
Portions of our attitudes about shopping for cars or houses etc come from FUD, good FUD. And yes, some FUD is good. My FUD about systemd is now causing me to read about RedHat and the NSA thing now.. and yeah, it's okay to do that, right?
Bad FUD is lies. I don't think we've seen much in the way of outright lying on this subject in here, have we?
77 • More systemd Stuff (by M.Z. on 2017-06-08 19:37:08 GMT from United States)
"If we are using Linux, we should be able to use any freely available Linux applications, but without any other applications we don't need. But, most of such applications have other "dependent" applications. Should that be?"
Look, I see that sometimes dependencies can be created in a way that is far from ideal & unnecessary. That is still an issue caused by individual distros. If you want to avoid a specific package like systemd then running a distro that uses it by default may well pull in things like systemd even if you tried to avoid having it on the system. The way to avoid it is to not use a distro that defaults to systemd. It's a simple solution & no one is forced to use anything if they select a distro that does what they prefer.
All that being said, there is certainly room for improvement in how common dependencies are packaged by devs. It would certainly be nice to get better dependency handling & only get things that are truly needed, or be able to swap out one set of dependencies for another. That still doesn't mean systemd is coming to take away your children or kick your puppy or whatever, which was always my main point.
"It's a well know fact RH has been approached by the NSA, and are NSA friendly, hence my disdain for systemd having networking capabilities. Why does a so-called 'init' need to 'phone' anywhere?"
That sounds highly speculative to me, possibly even outright FUD. It also sounds like if such an issue existed it would be relatively easy to both detect & track down. Many Linux distros ship with Wireshark & other network monitoring tools in their repos. Are we expected to believe that no one checks on these things even though the tools are in the repos? Such tools recently caught a 'Smart TV' manufacturer sending viewing habits back to themselves. Are we to suppose that the Linux community is incapable of doing a thorough enough analysis to detect such a privacy breech? Are we also supposed to believe that devs from Canonical and SUSE who also work on systemd are just as co-opted as you _Think_ Red Hat are?
None of that sounds very likely given the technical skill of the community & the international nature of Linux development; however, on the ever so minuscule chance that you are correct, chances are that such a scheme would be detected eventually & cause blow back that would make RH & others not want any part of what you speculate about.
"...but if it were to be cancelled tomorrow, that would freeze it at its last known GPL version, unless some charitable souls were to take that version over and continue to maintain it..."
Are we supposed to believe that the maintainers at both SUSE & Canonical that are already working on systemd are so incompetent that they can't figure out what they are working on? Are we to take it on your word that too few of the 788 contributors to systemd on GitHub would be willing to change employers to work on the project if RH went away? Are we also to believe that getting rid of systemd would be an impossible 'Franken-monster' job, despite the fact that work arounds already exist in other distros & Devuan already exists as a possible template for Debian based distros?
None of that sounds very likely to me. Also, here is the GitHub page with the number of contributors:
78 • @77 dependency matter (by OstroL on 2017-06-08 22:09:29 GMT from Netherlands)
I am not talking about systemd. It stays out of the way, so not a problem for me. I use Ubuntu based installation, so systemd is there. If Ubuntu considers its a good app, a behind the scene app, its quite okay by me. I'm talking about other apps, those you use, and those you see.
Take a nice app like Thunar, which I like better than Nautilus. But, if I want to install it, I have to have the Xfce4 panel too, which I don't need. Its not heavy, but for Thunar to work, the panel is not needed. This is just an example, and I don't have anything against XFCE. I actually like XFCE as a DE, and also use XFCE apps, without XFCE DE. I usually manually delete the unnecessary apps, while keeping what I need. But in the next upgrade, all those deleted would be installed again. And, because I like Thunar, I let it happen, but can go without the hassle.
The thing is, the devs most probably add these "fake" dependencies to make people use their apps my default (or by force). Bit untoward in the Linux world. (I am not saying anything against XFCE, which I consider as one of the best desktop environments available today in the Linux world.)
79 • thunar, and baggage (by tim on 2017-06-09 04:28:32 GMT from United States)
Perhaps you wind up with "panel too" because you've installed the xfce4 metapackage rather than the alacarte "thunar" package?
See? As packaged for debian, the only other xfce packages which thunar depends on are "libexo" and "libthunar"
For ubuntu, the package maintainers declare more depencencies
but, still, you would (should) not have xfce4-panel forced onto your system.
*IF* your apt preferences are set to "treat RECOMMENDED packages as dependencies"... that's about the only way (and explanation why) the panel is being "forced" (per your comment "in the next upgrade, all those deleted would be installed again")
80 • @79 dependency baggage (by OstroL on 2017-06-09 05:59:09 GMT from Poland)
Mentioning Thunar was just an example, nothing else. Even with "dependencies," I'd still install Thunar, as its an excellent file manager.
You mentioned, "the package maintainers declare more dependencies," and that's the problem. Those dependencies are not exactly needed for the application to work, so they should not be forced upon the users. It won't happen, but it would be nice, if a standalone application would come with as less as possible "dependencies."
81 • @79 • thunar, and baggage (by mandog on 2017-06-09 13:49:51 GMT from Peru)
Thunar only needs the panel to have a waste bin, you can still delete OK with out it but then things are lost forever.
82 • Ein reich, ein wolk, ein init ! (by Today the init . . . on 2017-06-09 15:04:03 GMT from United States)
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
- German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984).
83 • Avoiding (inter-)dependency creep (by FOSSilizing Dinosaur on 2017-06-09 15:07:49 GMT from United States)
Some distro packaging tools sort dependencies into (at least) required and optional; not a solution to creep, of course, but somewhat helpful. In the longer run, build tools could also help mitigate. DIY packaging, as it were.
Some apps stand best alone, possibly as restricted subsystems (like a virtual jailed appimage). Surely some web browsers aspire to be worlds unto themselves?
84 • because I like Thunar, I let it happen (by tim on 2017-06-10 01:56:00 GMT from United States)
"just an example" and I attempted to explain why it stands as an incorrect example. It "happens" due to your system config (which you are free to change) and due to the decision(s) of your distro's package maintainers. YOUR situation with thunar is __NOT__ due to the xfce "devs" adding fake dependencies.
Yes, I have noticed unwarranted dependencies, but they seem to be due to "laziness" moreso than anything else. Like, instead of shipping a (one, or a handful) icon imagefile for the program... an author or pkg maintainer draws from (depends on) icon from an existing multi piggabye-sized iconset packagefile.
kudos for mentioning that. I don't use .Trash, so that consideration didn't occur to me.
85 • Yawning While Arrows Bounce Off (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2017-06-10 09:33:58 GMT from United States)
@38 "Lay the systemd issue to rest at last"
Translating: stop educating on corporate maneuvers to capture FOSS and related s/w degradation. The answer is no. I will educate at every chance I get.
Skarnet says systemd will eventually die over shoddy workmanship. He's building a well engineered init suite that doesn't also phone home, wash your dishes, etc.
Apple Computer began as a hobby vendor. Linux began as a nerd hobby. RedTeamBlackHat would not exist financially but for government contracts. It has no consumer demand like Apple. It's set up for procurement bureaucrats who underwrite $5k toilet seats and still run official departments on Windows XP. Having worked on defense contracts, I know. What procurement cares about s/w quality I could scribble on my thumb.
@40 "I suggest pulseaudio would never have gained a hold..."
Read this potted history.
86 • No JACK!? (by Kragle on 2017-06-10 14:20:32 GMT from United States)
@85 ref.1: "The problem it was designed to solve was already solved, but they needed a GUI for it." Indeed. (They also needed a Full Manual.) Thank you for supporting my point. Excellent article.
Apulse is not a substitute; it's an emulation; as noted in ref.1, PA is a poor substitute … for JACK.
I've seen one ALSA GUI - alsamixer - via ncurses, or gtk (prettier); it's been incomplete for years. If people can't use a "solution", it's not solved.
(Wouldn't a standalone version of JACK - well-documented, with a full GUI - help?)
87 • Takeover FUD (by M.Z. on 2017-06-11 19:25:13 GMT from United States)
"...corporate maneuvers to capture FOSS..."
People talk about this FUD from time to time, yet no one can explain how software that is GPL can be 'captured' or otherwise taken over. Here in the real word the GPL has a strong court record of defending the rights of the users & the community & is seen as both a legally binding contract & a well proven software license.
"RedTeamBlackHat would not exist financially but for government contracts."
Obvious ad hominem weasel words aside, Red Hat claims a very different story about who their customers are. According to their web site 100% of airline, 100% of commercial banks, 100% of healthcare companies, and 100% of telecom companies in the global fortune 500 rely on Red Hat to some extent. But never mind that they have a big diverse base of customers with many different agendas & expectations, we're supposed to assume they are totally cooped & pure eval because of some government contracts?
@82 - Today the init . . .
So you have a proven choice in init systems available from distros like PCLinuxOS & Devuan & you chose to compare the init situation to the holocaust? That just isn't right.
88 • XML (by Fairly Reticent on 2017-06-11 23:04:31 GMT from United States)
Last search for XML in systemd at github yielded just under 300 results
Sad how many are sidetracked instead of focusing on the new distro.
Number of Comments: 88
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