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1 • Distributions added to waiting list (by kernelKurtz on 2017-05-01 00:52:35 GMT from Netherlands)
Ironically, I will always be clickbaited by anything that says Paranoid + Linux.
Unfortunately, it appears that there are multiple projects floating around under that same name.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/linuxparanoid/
https://susestudio.com/a/mPhN43/paranoid-linux
https://sourceforge.net/projects/paranoid-linux/
kK
2 • lumina-desktop WAS (pas tense) based on, depended on, fluxbox (by tim on 2017-05-01 00:57:03 GMT from United States)
Within the past month I had checked lumina-desktop.org and, today I revisited its github repo to double-check
github.com/trueos/lumina/tree/master/src-qt5/core/libLumina
Although the lumina desktop provides an option to expose a minimal, "fuxbox -ish" environment, within the lumina codebase nothing recognizable from the fluxbox codebase remains.
3 • Lumina (by Jesse on 2017-05-01 01:03:55 GMT from Canada)
>> "Although the lumina desktop provides an option to expose a minimal, "fuxbox -ish" environment, within the lumina codebase nothing recognizable from the fluxbox codebase remains."
Lumina was never based on Fluxbox, the desktop environment simply uses Fluxbox as the default window manager. Fluxbox code was never included in the Lumina code base. The latest Lumina code (1.3-prerelease) still uses Fluxbox as the default window manager. They have always been two separate projects.
4 • Android-x86 Release 6.0. Application package barriers. (by Greg Zeng on 2017-05-01 02:32:37 GMT from Australia)
DW this week accurately ignores the commercial, copyright form of Android-x86, costing $9 USD, for the current-only version. Http://andex.exton.net/?p=590
Although Android seems similar to Linux, it uses customized versions of the Linux kernels, designed to be incompatible with other Linux & Android distributions, afaik. Forks to the Android operating system are ok, since it seems to be in the same legal category as Chromium, Free BSD & Linux kernels which have been created by their respective "free" legal organizations. Commercial, copyright versions also exist of these freebies, such as "Google Chrome", Red Hat Linux kernels, etc afaik.
Android on x86, offers has tens of thousands of user applications never seen on any existing desktop computer, so can be attractive. Very few of these "apps" are ever transferred to the desktop computer operating systems: Windows, Mac or Linux. Canonical's "Snap", or Red Hat's Flatpak (both now have separate legally incorporated carers) might one day enable operating-system-free application fluidity. Doomed package containers now include DEB, PRM, AppImage, Java & Tar. Sourcecode is only for geeks with lots of computer resources, skills & time.
Much infrastructure mess exists however. Will the display be using X-ORG, WAYLAND, GTK or QT?? Seems now that both GTK & QT can run simultaneously?
5 • Android x86 (by Bobbie Sellers on 2017-05-01 03:22:17 GMT from United States)
I don't much care for Android and I have a tablet where that is the only OS
accepted as well as a cheapo cell for emergencies.
That said if you are a Linux user with tablet users in your household
it might be advantageous to look into the packaged version of Android x86
which it is claimed can be installed to ext4 partition and started from
the startup menu. This would give the tablet users a familiar
interface to use on a more powerful machine.
So before the next meeting of the LUG I belong to I will try the install
from an already downloaded RPM package to demonstrate to
the attendees.
bliss "running fast and light" on PCLinuxOS64-2016.03 GNU/
Linux 4.10.13-pclos1 #1 SMP Thu Apr 27
6 • Android apps on Linux (by vaithy on 2017-05-01 06:24:27 GMT from India)
I use android applications on my Asus Flip chrome book rather than use my phone (whatsapp,Tweetcaster,WPS office(Kingsoft Office). Tried installing chroot to ubuntu dual boot but not successful ( becuase it is arm based)
7 • new distros sort of (by $sudo rm bugs on 2017-05-01 06:40:07 GMT from Australia)
#1 What is it with paranoid linuxen? Are the developers too paranoid to even upload their ISOs? Or is it still April fools?
8 • Android apps on GNU/Linux (by paperman on 2017-05-01 07:00:40 GMT from Iran)
I only install open source apps on my Lineage and those apps have better alternatives for Linux so no need.
9 • android on linux (by david esktorp on 2017-05-01 07:47:45 GMT from United States)
I have been using Genymotion's Android emulator for a little while. Aside from an annoying GoogleApps error, it has worked well, but I only use it for Steam's authentication nonsense. If I hadn't been able to do this, I would have curtailed most or all use of Steam. I would much rather have a 'compatibility layer' method if such a project were to arise and mature. I have been exploring other options.
Somebody should do that compatibility layer idea and call it Andy so you could say to people, "I use xyz app on my computer," and then they'd say to you, "but I thought xyz app was only for android," to which you would reply, "I run it with Andy." Then they'd give you a puzzled look and say, "Wha- I don't get it.. who the heck is Andy?"
You offer a knowing smirk and walk away, virtually a god among men.
10 • TrueOS (by me on 2017-05-01 09:01:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried this yesterday. I installed on a sony laptop. It reminded me at the time of pc-bsd; now I know why. I did the graphical install. There are not many options. Its not like you get what you get and nothing else;but its close to that. If you want to do custom partitioning, prepare the partition before hand. It does default to trying to use the whole drive; wiping everything in other words; so be careful with that. Anyway, the install was slow; the initial bootup is slow; subsequent boots are slow, and once into the desktop (fluxbox) that is slow. I almost instanly removed the distro. Freebsd is quicker; although I am having a problem with that at least on the laptop; the intel driver is gone; but thats a different discussion.
11 • Mint Debian (by Nimbus on 2017-05-01 12:30:12 GMT from United States)
As a long time Mint user, I was perplexed by some random networking and video problems with Mint 18. Previous versions had been very stable. As a test, I moved some machines to distros that did not include systemd (such as MX-16 and Mint Debian). I was happy to see all my problems go away. While there is no way I can be sure the problems were caused by systemd, it is certainly nice to have options. I hope that the Mint developers continue to offer the Debian edition without systemd.
12 • Linux Mint Devuan Edition (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2017-05-01 13:09:50 GMT from United States)
Consider it...from Devuan's site, "By default Jessie runs with the same init system as Debian Wheezy, the venerable sysvinit. Several projects are under way to provide runit, and sinit support in Devuan, as well as openrc and s6."
13 • Android - sysD (by Pssst on 2017-05-01 18:24:37 GMT from Netherlands)
Android ?
Do not care for it. No time.
Systemd can make coffee on the boot.
I experiance the same and am not using it. Boot time way much faster with out sys D.
Greetings to Distrowatch and to all of you posting here.
14 • Lumina and Fluxbox (by Andre on 2017-05-01 23:44:26 GMT from Canada)
I wonder how much Lumina's use of Fluxbox is benefiting Fluxbox? Maybe I'm just misinformed, but I don't recall hearing much about Fluxbox development over the past few years; though I imagine there's not much need for change if it's not broken. Maybe it's time I pay Fluxbox another visit.
15 • Systemd and Android (by edcoolio on 2017-05-02 01:20:20 GMT from United States)
systemd?
Things work fine with it, and without it, so I really don't care. Old systems with strange video and audio hardware and on newer systems with modern hardware. MX-16 actually runs slower for me (by just a hair) on a 2.0GHz Pentium M laptop than Lubuntu. Take that for what it is. As a distro surfer, I have never had an issue with any major distro - systemd or no systemd.
Android?
I would love to load up any random .apk (or whatever package handler or converter ends up working best) by giving it a double-click or one line at the terminal inside of a few popular linux distros. Running android software on Linux in a smooth manner (video, networking, location services, etc) would do nothing but increase the reach and distribution of Linux worldwide.
Lets face it, the end user that linux would love to attract (iPhoneMacWinDroid users) don't care about systemd or non-systemd. However, they WOULD be excited to easily run any software package their heart desires, with nothing to get in the way. Double-click an .exe, .apk, .dmg, whatever, and make it work.
Is it pollyanna thinking? Sure it is, but it would represent the moment where linux would hopefully become the free monolith of the future while the rest begin to fade into the past.
16 • @14 Read the Lumina FAQ (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2017-05-02 05:11:24 GMT from United States)
Lumina is writing a replacement window manager as discussed on the FAQ. I don't know if it's done yet, shipping yet, or how gradual or quick, piecemeal or wholesale, will be the Fluxbox phase-out. See also https://bsdmag.org/lumina_desktop from 2015.
17 • @12 (by kaczor on 2017-05-02 05:54:47 GMT from United States)
Simply do
sudo apt install task-cinnamon-desktop
and you have cinnamon on Devuan. At least, I suppose it would. I'm not that keen to install cinnamon though, for it looks like win95.
18 • Systemd (by Simon on 2017-05-02 09:05:26 GMT from New Zealand)
Screw systemd...and screw all the ex-Windows and ex-Apple victims who want GNU/Linux to abuse its users the way they're used to being abused. Long live sysvinit (or any other init system with a sane design) :)
And by the way, @15: "...the end user that Linux would love to attract..."?! Linux is an operating system kernel, not a business: it doesn't want to attract anyone. Canonical and RedHat are businesses though, so they do want to attract customers...which is why they back systemd. It's not the *software* that wants to do everything for helpless dumbed-down users: that's what *businesses* want, because there's no money to be made from free software in the hands of people who know how to use it. Screw systemd and the dumbed down brainwashed consumer culture it represents. Long live the UNIX philosophy.
19 • systemd (by Bob on 2017-05-02 14:22:46 GMT from Austria)
systemd - it's here to stay. Sorry 'bout that ;-)
20 • TrueOS (by far2fish on 2017-05-02 17:15:19 GMT from Denmark)
I have recently bought a new laptop, so it was a good time to test TrueOS for the first time. Since the laptop has all Intel components except the SSD, which is a Samsung, I expected good compability. I ran the GUI installer, and it crashed constantly if I tried to customize storage. When I selected default partitioning it installed successfully.
Lumina desktop worked great most of the time. It froze a few times, and could only be made working again by doing a hardware shutdown.
The software manager was a pleasant surprise, and seemed to have most of the software I use on a daily basis.
Personally I can't see TrueOS replace Linux on my desktop yet. For that I am too fond of Linux.
21 • Why Simon? (by Garon on 2017-05-02 18:59:50 GMT from United States)
" Long live the UNIX philosophy."
You've given a lot of you own personal opinions but no reason you believe that UNIX has the so called best philosophy. Is it because it is the only thing that you know or what is it. Has someone stepped on your toes or hurt your feelings? Maybe its just because not everyone believes in what you say or believe in. Maybe instead of people being so called dumbed down you just can't keep up. Systemd is here to stay, compiler or not lol. Bite the bullet.
22 • re:Why Simon (by DaveT on 2017-05-02 19:39:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
UNIX has a very very good philosophy that has been working for 40+ years. Please, tell us of a better one.
systemd may well be here to stay. I don't care. It is not and will never be on any of my home computers or servers, and it will not be on any of the servers I am responsible for at work.
TrueOS is OK but tends to run slower than linux on the hardware I have tried it on. Lumina is coming along nicely, not perfect but not bad.
23 • Cinnamon @ that silly systemd stuff (by M.Z. on 2017-05-02 20:17:39 GMT from United States)
@17
"I'm not that keen to install cinnamon though, for it looks like win95."
Sorry but it sounds to me like you don't really know much about Cinnamon. It is vastly less locked down thin Unity in the looks department & vastly less locked down than Gnome 3 in the general configuration department. What I'm getting at is that Cinnamon can look like whatever you want it to from win XP, 7, 10, etc. to various versions of Gnome old or modern & you can turn on various elements of eye candy if you want. Also you are not locked down into the bad default behavior I experienced the few times I played with Gnome 3, because like I said it's configurable by design rather than through a mixed bad of extensions that break every time Gnome 3 is updated. Which is of course the DE it was designed to replace.
Personally I still prefer KDE, but I still find Cinnamon to be an excellent DE overall & I think if I could get full screen streaming video to play as well in Cinnamon as KDE then they would be virtually interchangeable for me as attractive modern full sized desktops. Of course I still have a slight preference for Qt apps, but the Mint x-apps are nice too.
PS how do you think all of the themes look like win95? Have you even really looked at the revamped theme site for Cinnamon? See here:
https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/themes/latest
Not that it ever actually looked how you depicted it.
@18
"Screw systemd...and screw all the ex-Windows and ex-Apple victims who want GNU/Linux to abuse its users..."
Personally I've had a few minor annoyances with systemd that all went away on a simple restart. So what? If you don't like it use a project that avoids it & move on from the negativity, most Linux users have heard it all before & it does nothing but poison the tone of the discussion.
Others who agree with your general sentiment are already using the fact that it is completely open software to examine the code & modify or purge it in systems made just for people like you. We don't need to hear more venom directed towards some completely avoidable peace of software designed to boot you PC. It's far easier to avoid for anyone who would care than the Unity spyware lens ever was to average users being affected by that. If normal people have boot problems they can investigate a little & move to something with a different init system. Their copy of systemd never did any more than boot their PC in a more complex & convoluted way than necessary. That isn't the kind of privacy or users rights violation that warrants this level of attention. A similar tone was completely called for with past versions of the Unity DE, but what real damage will the funny boot process do? Find an acceptable list of distros & move on, because it really is completely avoidable & harmless to virtually anyone who made good backups and can install a different distro in the even of a serious error. Also if it was altogether terrible for reliability I'm fairly certain Red Hat wouldn't roll it out on production Enterprise Linux deployments because that could destroy their momentum & market share.
24 • @ 23 MZ (by kaczor on 2017-05-02 21:00:20 GMT from United States)
Cinnamon looks like Win95, whatever anyone says. If I want something to look like Win7 or Vista, then the best is KDE 5. Only thing is KDE5 is much better than Win7. Anyway, Win7 is gone for win ten.
About the UNIX matter, if anyone would buy me a MAC, I'd happily use it. I once used OS X some years ago, and know that it works. But that doesn't mean, I'd let go of Linux. I like Linux world because it gives me happy times tinkering. I've known Linux distros since Ubuntu 4.10, so its a long time distro hopping. I'm using a Linux installs with Openbox, one Debian, one Devuan, one Ubuntu. Thinking of ROX desktop. And, of course AppImages.
25 • yeah, systemd... (by edcoolio on 2017-05-02 21:03:46 GMT from United States)
@18, are you arguing that Linux does not want to attract end users? All the advertisements for products here on Distrowatch, the USB keys, the jobs of admins (like @22) that become more available and higher paying the more users there are? Are you saying that the elimination of the $$, closed source OS, and monopolistic power from Microsoft and Apple is of no value to the Linux community and a bad thing?
It sure sounds like you are.
I suppose everyone has the right to their own spin on the "UNIX philosophy".
@22, more power to you!
@23, agreed.
26 • Window managers (by RJA on 2017-05-03 02:42:03 GMT from United States)
"Cinnamon looks like Win95, whatever anyone says."
@24 Do you mean JWM?
27 • @24 | System failure (by No Body on 2017-05-03 05:05:22 GMT from Switzerland)
Urgently consult the psychiatrist and the ophthalmologist. Your systems are seriously malfunctioning.
KDE is a buggiest, most useless piece of crap ever written for Linux and the only one that is 1:1 copycat of Windows 95.
Plasma 5:
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/screenshot12.png
Windows 95:
http://toastytech.com/guis/win95startmenu.png
28 • systemd (again) (by Gary W on 2017-05-03 06:22:32 GMT from Australia)
@23: "if it was altogether terrible for reliability I'm fairly certain Red Hat wouldn't roll it out on production Enterprise Linux deployments"
Last time I checked, the Red Hat knowledgebase has 26 pages of "errata" and "enhancements" for systemd. Other people might use the terms "buggy" and "incomplete".
Mind you, I look after a fleet of maybe 50 RHEL 7 systems, with no problems attributable to systemd. On the other hand, I look after a fleet of maybe 200 RHEL5 and 6 systems, with no problems attributable to sysvinit.
My own view is that systemd is an overcomplicated solution desperately searching for a problem. I don't want it on my own systems, and I'm very happy that I have such a choice.
29 • "... looks like Windows 95" @17,24,28 (by curious on 2017-05-03 08:43:19 GMT from Germany)
You can make almost any desktop with a "traditional" layout (not Gnome 3, Unity, Mac or Win8) look like Windows 95.
However, they all look different "out of the box", as anybody who is old enough to actually have used Windows 95 will know (if they are not already suffering loss of memory).
30 • @29 looks like windows95 (by kaczor on 2017-05-03 10:31:44 GMT from United States)
The "traditional" desktop was copied from Windows95. It appears that the majority of us wants the "traditional" look. Maybe that's why Gnome 2 is sort of not allowed to die--the creation of Mate.
@ 27 Cinnamon looks so windows95 and trying hard to stay that way. KDE is whole lot of things, not only the Plasma desktop. It won't work well with old machines, so buy a new one. KDE Neon had not been "buggy" for such a long time. (KDE Neon has the newest KDE apps.)
31 • KDE, Win95 (by Fan Yusu on 2017-05-03 12:56:37 GMT from Austria)
Nothing wrong with Win95 at that time, was definitely worthwhile to copy it. In terms of stability I remember some releases of KDE3 to be almost unbeatable, but then they decided to kill it.
Currently I am using LXDE for running KDE applications such as Dolphin, etc. Feels like stone age of computing but runs fast and fairly stable as compared to the latest Plasma crap. I would be a fan boy of KDE if it did not break reliably after a couple of re-configurations.
So, currently not much left for me:
- Win10: bearable, but no more than that
- (macOS: what the heck is that?)
- KDE: currently useless for serious work
- Gnome3: unacceptable
- XFCE: vintage DE
- LXQt: not there yet
- LXDE: will never be there, but it's at least working
- Mate: might die sooner or later
- Cinnamon: not entirely convincing last time I tried it
- Most of the rest: waste of time
I just hope KDE developers will grow up and stop inventing desktop effects until most of the issues are resolved. But I guess that won't happen anytime soon.
32 • X-Apps (Regarding Post # 23) / AP Linux (by Winchester on 2017-05-03 13:09:21 GMT from United States)
Just what the world needs ......Mint X-Apps ..... a forked version of the Pluma Text Editor which works just fine the way it is.
It's good to see AP Linux added to the database. A distribution that actually brings something useful to the table. "DSD support and a custom real-time Linux kernel for improved audio performance." As opposed to a useless clone of other operating systems such as BeeFree OS.
33 • @31 Mate (by Bellan on 2017-05-03 15:23:41 GMT from United States)
"Mate: might die sooner or later"
I'm sorry, what? What in the world would make you think that? Development for Mate has been pretty steady, with it now on GTK 3. It doesn't appear to be anywhere close to being dead. So why would you imply that? And you're using LXDE and calling Xfce vintage? Have you actually used a distro using Xfce with a good theme? Because Xfce is ahead of LXDE.
34 • other thoughts (by M.Z. on 2017-05-03 15:48:06 GMT from United States)
@24
"Urgently consult the psychiatrist and the ophthalmologist."
Well, when somebody wants to treat comments like "...whatever anyone says." as belonging in a serious discussion, at least part of that is true.
That being said with regard to other parts of your comment I'd point out I've encountered very stable versions of KDE in both the Mint 17.x KDE series, as well as in Mageia 5. I did hit some issues early in the KDE 4 series, but KDE having problems is far from the general rule suggest it is.
@28
"My own view is that systemd is an overcomplicated solution desperately searching for a problem. I don't want it on my own systems, and I'm very happy that I have such a choice"
That's cool, my main point is that some people feel the need to loudly proclaim their irrational fear of systemd & ruin decent conversations. I use PCLinuxOS on some partitions of my PCs, so I only use systemd part of the time. I can't say I notice a huge difference, though like I said in #23, there are some annoyances on a very rare basis.
@32
"Just what the world needs ..."
The main point of Mint X-apps was to fork Gnome 3 apps into something more useful that didn't have the weird UI elements and obfuscated functionality designed for Gnome. Perhaps some apps were pulled from other sources, but the vision is a unified set of apps that look good & act like normal functional apps for all Gtk desktop users. I'm far from being a Mint dev, so I won't comment on the need for a full fork off all the X-apps; however, there were some fairly ugly & dysfunctional apps being produced by the Gnome project & reused elsewhere in other Gtk 3 based desktops.
35 • #31 desktop environment rundown (by far2fish on 2017-05-03 17:05:39 GMT from Denmark)
I had a good laugh when I read your opinion on some of the common desktop environment.
I would guess you have not spent enough time with each of them though.
Another light weight option I can recommend is using a window manager only, like openbox, fluxbox or similar and use a panel like tint2 or a dock like plank. You can get that to look very modern, be very functional, but still really low on resources.
36 • Where the UNIX philosophy lives. (by gARON on 2017-05-03 18:55:45 GMT from United States)
The UNIX philosophy has served well. There's only one problem. You will not find it anywhere except in UNIX. I don't see it anywhere else. Why is that I wonder? It's a good philosophy but its just not sustainable in my opinion. People will always try to improve on things. Whether they need to or not.
37 • @33, @35 (by Fan Yusu on 2017-05-03 22:26:53 GMT from Austria)
Mate: Just talked to some people sharing my opinion. If Mate ever overtakes Cinnamon, is still there in 3 years time AND is still actively supported - you win ;-)
XFCE: Latest release - Feb28, 2015 (vs. LXDE 0.99.2, Nov 2016), Thunar crashed on me without apologies while transferring a huge and hugely important file. That's it, thank you. I am not going to wait another 2 years to get bugs fixed. Apologies to all XFCE fans!
Openbox, etc.: That is what I am using now (LXDE w/ob). LXPanel is good enough for me, but thanks for your remarks anyway. I am starting up with ~250MB of RAM usage, not really worrisome on 16G systems.
38 • systemd (by Simon on 2017-05-03 22:39:41 GMT from New Zealand)
@22: "You've given a lot of you own personal opinions but no reason you believe that UNIX has the so called best philosophy. Is it because it is the only thing that you know or what is it"?
I rest my case. People who don't understand the UNIX philosophy, and therefore don't understand the criticisms of systemd, nevertheless can't resist wading in to claim that we're failing to "keep up" if we object to a regression in the quality of critical software components.
@23: "What real damage will the funny boot process do"?
That's not the point: the point is that this "collaborative", "community" operating system can now be hijacked by a handful of corporate employees with a narrow focus on the job they've been paid to do and no respect for good software design principles...because the community is now full of people who don't understand those principles themselves, so are happy to shrug "hey, no big deal" when they're violated.
The point is not that it's only a small part of the OS that they've made worse. The point is that they made it worse, and when old-school admins objected, we were shouted down by hordes of ex-Windows users sympathetic to the changes...which emboldened the likes of Canonical to inflict a software regression on millions of users...so that a regression in code quality has now become "the way it's done" in the Linux world, sucking future developers into the same hole.
Despite Garon's bizarre claim that the UNIX philosophy is "just not sustainable", it will be sustained. It just won't be sustained by the majority of GNU/Linux users....because they are now mostly ex-Windows users who want the OS to be less UNIX-like and more Windows-like...in other words, more and more automated and usable for people who don't want to think about what's going on in their computers, and less and less usable for people who do.
That's what I mean by "dumbed down": the community is now full of people who prefer buggy code that "just works" for them by automating stuff, over trustworthy code that's not buggy but requires them to read manuals and learn how to use it. As for the argument that it can't be that stupid or Red Hat wouldn't be using it, give me a break. You think it's impossible for stupidity to rise to the top, in a community where profits come before principles?
39 • @38 (by sglnx on 2017-05-04 04:26:37 GMT from Singapore)
This is exactly what I thought.
Some Linux distro has became more Windows-like than Unix-like.
40 • @38 (by kaczor on 2017-05-04 11:40:48 GMT from United States)
> That's what I mean by "dumbed down": the community is now full of people who prefer buggy code that "just works" for them by automating stuff, over trustworthy code that's not buggy but requires them to read manuals and learn how to use it.<
Would you explain how the buggy code would "just work"? And, what is the "trustworthy" code?
41 • Your opinion and not a fact. (by gARON on 2017-05-04 12:21:48 GMT from United States)
Simon may have the time to waste on making the perfect code or to claim so but times are different then they were 40 years ago. Also you say that buggy code just works. Now that's a bizarre claim if i ever heard one. It's really strange that OLD SCHOOL ADMINS refuse to progress with the rest of the world. The world of computer science has been evolving at a steady pace and the old ones don't want to lose their special place. I find it a very silly statement and somewhat nonsense that a person MUST know how their code is written and exactly how it works for a person to do work on a computer. It makes no sense. That thinking does not exist today in the computer work force because there are more progressions than regressions. When some of your modular bits of code won't work on some new servers it's not the servers that are to fault. It's the failure or lack of progressive thinking and not wanting to accept that the OLD SCHOOL way of doing things is not always the best. And for sglnx from Singapore, that statement is just BS in the form of a death rattle, it has no merit and no meaning. I'm 61 years old and even I know when it's time to evolve.
42 • OpenIndiana !?! Is this a joke? (by sys5er on 2017-05-04 13:02:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
I was quite excited to see that there was a new version of OpenIndiana after all this time.
Downloading the 1.5GB DVD ISO took almost an hour but that was fine.
The install in virtualbox was also dog slow but still ok as I was busy with other work anyway.
It finally came to an end and the virtual machine fired up just fine.
First thing I noticed was that there was no support for guest additions in the original distribution so the screen size was limited to 800x600ish (not exactly sure about the pixel count).
First terminal window I open and try to run a root command I got a message that my freshly created password was "expired", so it forced me to recreate a new one and the folklore started!
- You can't use your old password unless it is shifted by 3 spaces...
- You can't have a new password if it contains part of your user id...
- The first character of the user password needs to be this or that...
Give me a break man! Are you stupid or something?!
On a half baked ancient OS fork the developers apparently had lots of fun creating puzzles instead of advancing the technology! - Good for them, but I wiped out the vm and brought an end to their joke.
I think OpenIndiana people need to become a bit more serious. What a waste, what a disappointment.
R.I.P Unix System V of my youth, R.I.P Solaris of my professional career - You're lucky that you don't get to see your descendant - actually very lucky because it certainly is not worth to be your shadow!
43 • X-Apps (Regarding Post # 34) (by Winchester on 2017-05-04 13:53:47 GMT from United States)
I don't know ........ I use the Pluma text editor under LXQt Gecko Linux Rolling Tumbleweed without any "weird UI elements and (or) obfuscated functionality" at all.
I also use the Atril document viewer under Enlightenment without any such problems.
In fact,in experimenting with upwards of 30 different distributions with various desktop environments and window managers,I can't recall ever experiencing weird UI elements or obfuscated functionality with these applications.
44 • Disagree (by M.Z. on 2017-05-04 19:30:32 GMT from United States)
@38
"...now be hijacked by a handful of corporate employees..."
This is the core problem with many of the systemd arguments. The alternatives like PCLinuxOS, & to a lesser extent Devuan already exist & there are entire lists compiled of distros that don't use systemd. In addition there are tools on this very site designed to help you avoid systemd while using Linux if you chose to do so. If you want to avoid systemd I can respect that, I'd just like to know how is it that you can claim to not have the exact thing you want at you fingertips?
For my part I stopped attacking Canonical after they committed to removing spyware from Unity, regardless of the fact that they created a deep mistrust in me & many other users. I feel I won after raising my voice with many others & speaking out about the issue, & it looks to me that those who don't like systemd have been provided all the tools & distro options they need to declare victory as well. Now why is it that you can't accept victory graciously & load up one of the many non-systemd distros? No one can 'hijack' the distros that rejected systemd, and this fact combined with your complaints make it look like you are just injecting excess negativity into the conversation for the sake of it.
@43
Why do you keep bringing up Gtk 2 based MATE apps? How are they relevant in a discussion about the problems with Gnome 3/Gtk 3 apps?
Sorry but those are not related to the problem x-apps were designed to fix. If you want to know why x-apps exist look at the lack of a menu in what they were designed to replace:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedit#/media/File:Gedit_3.11.92.png
& compare to the replacement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_(software)#/media/File:Xed_v1.2.2--adwaita_dark_theme.png
45 • Android Apps (by Klas Ion on 2017-05-04 22:12:18 GMT from United States)
I would love to be able to run MXPlayer on Linux. Wish it was open source, but will settle for the Android App if it will play well on Linux. I prefer Kodi as a full media center, but for individual instant plays, nothing compares to MXPlayer (VLC is the standby, but it still has some programming quirks that show up now and then and it won't do multi-subs.
46 • @44 (by Simon on 2017-05-04 23:43:17 GMT from New Zealand)
Well...apply your own arguments to the issue that you understood and cared about, and see how they work. You've written "if you want to avoid systemd I can respect that, I'd just like to know how it is that you can claim to not have the exact thing you want at your fingertips?". "Those who don't like systemd have been provided all the tools & distro options they need to declare victory...now why is it that you can't accept victory graciously & load up one of the many non-systemd distros?".
Canonical did not care about your privacy on principle: if it had done so, it wouldn't have violated it in the first place. It does, however, care about its popularity because it is motivated by business interests: therefore, when you raised the privacy issue and enough users understood about it and cared about it that it was clear to Canonical that it would be a bad *business* decision to violate your privacy, they made the change.
Similarly, Canonical do not care about good FOSS design on principle, so are happy to violate those principles if it looks like a good *business* decision. With systemd, unlike with the privacy issue, users simply didn't understand what was at stake...so Canonical opted for the init system that would serve itself best (since so much kernel development etc. is driven by Red Hat, and going with the flow in that respect is much easier than taking responsibility for continually untangling other code from systemd). Now imagine privacy issues were similarly unimportant to the majority of Ubuntu users, so Canonical ignored you when you spoke up about them:
"If you want to avoid spyware I can respect that, I'd just like to know how it is that you can claim to not have the exact thing you want at your fingertips?". "Those who don't like spyware have been provided all the tools & distro options they need to declare victory...now why is it that you can't accept victory graciously & load up one of the many non-spyware distros?".
It's not "victory" when an influential distro ignores your concerns and steers huge numbers of GNU/Linux users in the wrong direction. It would not have been a "victory" for you to work away on a handful of non-spyware distros with a handful of privacy enthusiasts while spyware became so firmly embedded into all the major distros that books on Linux had chapters on how best to use it, training future generations of users to take it for granted as part of the OS. So, it's not a victory for a handful of non-systemd distros with a handful of UNIX enthusiasts to try keeping Linux UNIX-like while the major distros steer it in the direction of Windows for business reasons.
OK, if I'm "injecting excess negativity into the conversation for the sake of it" by continuing to point out that systemd sucks, I'm sorry about that. Still, I wonder if you'd have stayed positive towards Canonical if they'd ignored your privacy concerns...or if you'd have continued to point out, from time to time, that its spyware sucks?
47 • @46 • @44 • Systemd (by pengxiun on 2017-05-05 01:08:43 GMT from New Zealand)
For a few years I have sat on the sidelines, not on the fence (I have made my own decision) of this "debate".
I understand that Redhat did not lean on Debian or Canonical or any others and say: "This is the way it is going to be."
Systemd is a Redhat "development" and the question should rather be asked of the distributions using it, "why did you go with systemd?"
I mean, Redhat is an .rpm distro, and going by the Distrowatch HPD, Redhat and other .rpm based distros make up a low percentage.
So it is unlikely that systemd take-up was due to popularity of the package system.
The .rpm package does not care about systemd, and I'm pretty sure that .deb packages don't care either.
The kernel is systemd neutral, so that is not a driving force either.
So perhaps the real question is:
What is stopping you creating the perfect init. system for yourself, promoting it as the best thing since the best thing since sliced bread, and showing up systemd for its shortcomings that your init. show up so well.
The distros will be beating a path to your door.
48 • Reply to Post # 44 Gedit / Post # 37 XFCE File Manager Options (by Winchester on 2017-05-05 11:49:00 GMT from United States)
Regarding Post # 44 :
1) The answer is because I was responding to (part of) post # 23.
2) Any and all documentation that I have read indicates that X-Apps "Xed" is forked
from Pluma and not from Gedit. Also the X-App document viewer is forked from Atril.
The video player .... forked from Totem. That is unless the information is incorrect but
judging by the image you posted,it seems to be the case.
Regarding Post # 37 :
Can you not just install SpaceFM and / or PCmanFM and use them with the XFCE environment ?? Maybe even Nemo and Nautilus to copy large,important files ??
49 • @48 and 37 - Thunar (by Hoos on 2017-05-05 12:25:30 GMT from Singapore)
Also, isn't XFCE very modular? Even if there has been no release of the latest version of the complete XFCE desktop suite, I believe individual components like Thunar have been updated and released in the meantime.
https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2017/02/13/releases-releases-releases/#comments
Whether these new releases are available to you may of course depend on what distro you are on and their repos.
In Manjaro for instance, I think one gets the latest XFCE components when they are released. There's no concept of having to wait for the next full XFCE suite version (beyond ver 4.12) to get parts of it that have been updated.
50 • @31 Fan Yusu : KDE and LXDE (by Kazlu on 2017-05-05 15:52:03 GMT from France)
"I remember some releases of KDE3 to be almost unbeatable"
"Currently I am using LXDE for running KDE applications such as Dolphin, etc."
Have you tried Trinity? https://www.trinitydesktop.org/
I didn't try it, I don't know if it would be your cup of tea, but who knows, if it can help.
51 • Thunar and Gedit (by lenn on 2017-05-05 15:58:06 GMT from Canada)
For those who complain about Thunar, just try to open a .dektop file in /usr/share/applications in Gedit (or Pluma).
Or after copying such a file to your home directory, and then try edit it in whatever way and save it in Gedit. See what you get as an extension.
With Thunar, its breeze.
@Simon, you have not yet explained how the buggy code would "just work"?
52 • Diagnosis, Devuan (by Somewhat Reticent on 2017-05-05 19:12:36 GMT from United States)
Hammering Thunar
Regarding a problem after a file-copy operation - what exactly was the issue? What evidence laid blame specifically on the file-manager app?
.
systemd's just init?
If changes involving systemd were confined to startup (boot), how many people would have been concerned? Most complaints I've seen involve inter-dependencies, and resulting 'breakage' of increasing numbers of packages, apparently abandoning venerable system design disciplines.
Only a few complaints involved the failure to keep process-control configuration files human-readable (binary-in-XML?), something that could have been addressed during implementation, as an option at the least.
To their credit, developers of the Devuan base-distro fork are restoring freedom of choice in this regard. Community derivatives are showing up before the first RC (Release-Candidate) for the base.
53 • Automotive analogy (by M.Z. on 2017-05-05 21:07:55 GMT from United States)
@46
"Well...apply your own arguments..."
At a certain point that becomes a very false equivalency. The Canonical situation was similar to an in car GPS navigation system sending location data to third parties by default being installed in the most popular car in the world. It seems to me that systemd is very much like a mild-hybrid/start-stop system by comparison. You may not like it, & may indeed prefer vehicles that follow the 'KISS' principle. If you have principles you want to follow that's great. The fact is the mild-hybrid did nothing similar to our hypothetical GPS in terms of violating the rights of anyone. You still have full & free access to as many other cars as you want, & indeed to the very blueprints of our open source Linux car. The cars that act different than how you want can't hijack that right and do nothing to harm their users. They are just doing a lot more starting & stopping of their engines while offering the same open design principles as the car you like. It doesn't really matter if all the most popular vehicles in the wold use the system, because again it's use violates neither your rights nor the rights of those who use such systems directly.
You seem to be moving the goal posts a lot to rationalize overblown fears. First you say @38 "...operating system can now be hijacked....", then when it's demonstrably proven that such a hijacking doesn't exist, the goal post suddenly moves @44 to "...steers huge numbers of GNU/Linux users in the wrong direction." So what? Huge numbers of people do things all the time that I don't like with their OSs, & I still have the right to get my copy of Linux my way regardless just like other people can get their own preferred version of Linux. If your way is just as good or actually better than systemd your preferred init option will survive in perpetuity & perhaps even displace the fancy new init system. Also you seemed to have moved form false hijack talk about someone taking your right to do what you want, to talking like you'er mad that most people are going to be doing what they want instead of doing things your way. You see the irony there right?
I'd also point out the @40 had a solid point about one of the many other problems with your arguments & @47 makes some solid points as well.
54 • @50 Trinity (by Fan Yusu on 2017-05-06 14:19:00 GMT from Austria)
Thank you for your comment. But Trinity is a long-term project which never took off for some reason. I'll stick with LXDE for the moment. KDE will get another chance once googling reveals some hints of improved KDE stability.
55 • Trinity (by Winchester on 2017-05-06 16:16:54 GMT from United States)
PClinuxOS Trinity (Big Daddy ISO) is one of the best,if not the best,systems I have used.
It does need a little bit of fine tuning to the appearance .... icons,wallpaper,cursor etc. to adjust the dated aspects of the overall look. I would also recommend installing an alternate file manager but,otherwise,very solid. I have not encountered any real stability issues with it.
56 • Devuan derivative (by kent on 2017-05-06 22:17:16 GMT from United States)
Why not try Nelum-Dev1-Xfce-Testing? You get a very nice systemd free practically rolling distro.
57 • bit more info (by kent on 2017-05-06 22:21:45 GMT from United States)
It was released in May last year, but all you have to do is sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade and you'd get a fully updated distro. Try it out and see.
58 • systemd (by Simon on 2017-05-06 22:31:15 GMT from New Zealand)
@40/51: Complex automation aims to have things "just work" for users who don't want to learn about the system in order to configure things themselves. The automation means shifting decisions that could be made by the user into code, so by definition the code is more complex and more likely to be buggy. The more automated a system is, the more complex, time-consuming and difficult it is to keep it bug-free and trustworthy...but the more comfortable and easy it is for new users. It "just works" for them.
Before systemd, the influence of ex-Windows users with no UNIX training upon GNU/Linux development seemed mostly to involve tons of harmless GUI fluff for making stuff that already worked perfectly well "just work" for them too: fine for keeping them happy (often convenient and helpful for all of us, in fact), and with little impact on anything that really mattered on servers etc. Poettering’s pulseaudio was typical of that...but with his systemd, an ugly Windows-inspired approach introducing complex integration and automation has established itself right at the heart of the OS, in a critical, always-running process.
@46: An easily disabled, anonymous data-collection tool in an optional GUI layer is not as important as a foundational component of the OS: not even if, as in your car analogy, systemd were merely a system starter/stopper. Re the "solid point" made by #40: I see a straightforward question...which I've answered above, as #51 didn't get the "just works" reference either. The point that #47 makes is more substantial...it is often more constructive to support alternatives than to criticise how things are being done, and I’m going to take that on board and drop this topic...but the claim that distros would be "beating a path" to a better init system if I developed one ignores the fact that better init systems already exist and they're beating a path in the opposite direction!
You haven’t persuaded me to dislike systemd any less...nor the practice of declaring UNIX principles outdated and irrelevant without even knowing what they are. However, I do accept, as you pointed out, that we’re fortunate to have alternatives (the new RC for Devuan 1.0 that Distrowatch has just announced, for example) and that getting "mad" about all the resources being poured into making Linux more Windows-like is pretty futile now that most Linux users were raised on Windows. Beyond that I don’t think we’re going to arrive at any common ground on this one, so let’s agree to disagree re systemd.
59 • Fine by me (by M.Z. on 2017-05-07 05:24:30 GMT from United States)
@58
"An easily disabled, anonymous data-collection tool..."
I heard some points being made that this was all the spyware lens was at the time. The primary point that made the offending feature spyware was that is was on by default, not entirely obvious to those who may not have been doing their homework, & that if you didn't know it was there you were transmitting data about yourself without consent. I consider that a major privacy violation & many said it officially amounted to spyware, including influential people like RM Stallman. I don't see how a design decision in the init system, regardless of how badly designed it is, amounts to that level of a problem. That is especially true when the init can be modified by anyone with the know how.
All that being said I'm also glad that init alternatives exist for anyone who wants that sort of thing. I'm also glad that the GPL assures users full right over their software & keeps the community in control. Letting different groups modify things like the init system to suit their tastes is a genuine strength of Linux & no one can take that strength away.
Number of Comments: 59
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