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1 • GeckoLinux (by Sam on 2016-05-30 00:06:45 GMT from South America)
Sweet! GeckoLinux creator here, just wanted to say "thanks" to Distrowatch for listing it! Please let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions for improvement.
2 • Upgrading openSUSE (by dhinds on 2016-05-30 00:43:59 GMT from North America)
I upgraded openSUSE 13.2 to Leap 42.1 on two computers (a desktop and a notebook) with no problems after downloading the DVD iso, burning it and rebooting to it. On another desktop I installed Leap 42.1 from scratch and on two laptops I installed openSUSE Tumbleweed, it's rolling edition (all Xfce).
The Fedora 22 installation wouldn't upgrade to 23 on a laptop but did so fine on a destop.
My Debian installations are Sparky Openbox, a rolling edition (no upgrading required).
I also use Calculate Xfce and Manjaro Xfce (both are rolling distros also).
3 • Harware support poll (by Jordan on 2016-05-30 01:00:05 GMT from North America)
One choice not there might be: It should depend on which hardware item.
4 • GeckoLinux (by Cinreal on 2016-05-30 01:23:53 GMT from North America)
On first look, might GeckoLinux be to openSUSE what LinuxMint is to Ubuntu?
5 • Long Time & Hardware support (by BluPhoenyx on 2016-05-30 01:34:22 GMT from North America)
Wow, it's hard to believe I've been visiting this website for 15 years. Most sites don't make it that long. Great job DW. Keep up the good work.
Hardware support is certainly a touchy subject. People with new systems always want them supported, but a lot of us have computers with a bit of age and enjoy getting the most use out of them as possible. Another concern for some of us is the cost of hardware replacement. This is something that I understand because I am forced to live on a fixed income due to a disability. Upgrading can be tough and sometimes, simply replacing failed components can be hard. My current system has become a mix of hardware from a variety of sources. So much so that the computer is named Frankenstein.
I hope that the developers remember that if it weren't for older hardware, Linux would never have evolved to where it is today.
Cheers,
Mike T
6 • Hardware support forever (by Oriol Puig on 2016-05-30 01:35:47 GMT from Europe)
Writing this comment with dillo on debian 8.4 lxde. Hardware from last century: HP AMD athlon 1.47 GHz 256 Mb RAM. Meanwhile downloading avi torrents (ktorrent) at 320 kbits/s to 1Tb external drive.
7 • @ #4 (Cinreal) (by Sam on 2016-05-30 02:04:25 GMT from South America)
> On first look, might GeckoLinux be to openSUSE what LinuxMint is to Ubuntu?
Yep, that's a good comparison. Except that the plan is to not deviate from openSUSE and Packman (for restricted multimedia) packages. openSUSE is an *excellent* base operating system, it just needs some major tweakage of the default configuration to make it friendly for new and experienced desktop Linux users.
8 • Hardware Support (by win2linconvert on 2016-05-30 02:21:57 GMT from Europe)
I hope the Kernel maintainers will take into account the number or percentage of users compared to the original number or percentage of users of any hardware support they are considering for removal from the kernel. Also... Like #5, I still have a decent amount of older hardware around the house that I'd like to keep usable for as long as possible. Even if I want to donate it to someone else, it needs an up to date OS for the recipient to use. I for one would not like to donate a computer with Windows or OS X on it, when I could introduce the new user to computing freedom with a fresh install of what ever flavor of Linux.
Thanks for another interesting issue of DWW, and thanks for 15 years of DW.
Very Appreciative,
win2linconvert
9 • Happy 15th, DistroWatch! (by Will B on 2016-05-30 03:04:14 GMT from North America)
To Jesse and the team, happy 15 years of DistroWatch!! :-D It's a regular view for me nearly every day, and always look forward to each weekly edition.
> We started on Debian, migrated to FreeBSD and are now back on Debian 7
> "Wheezy". I guess you could say we like sticking with stable systems that
> are not going to surprise us.
I hear that. Funny, I did the same thing with my server: Debian > FreeBSD > Debian. FreeBSD was great until it wasn't. Debian messed up big-time one time. So both Debian and FreeBSD are about in the same boat reliability-wise for server duties. Desktop duties? FreeBSD packages (GTK2, glib, etc) have some serious issues (many are upstream's fault) but Debian kicks FreeBSD's rump when it comes to *reliable* desktop usage. Hopefully FreeBSD 11 will turn that around. :-)
10 • systemd in Debian (by Bill on 2016-05-30 03:17:25 GMT from Oceania)
So the systemd juggernought rolls on. I commend and recommend Slackware and derivatives, Gentoo and derivatives, antiX, Manjaro OpenRC, CRUX, the BSDs and others (see http://without-systemd.org) for their resistance to this attack on the principles of UNIX and of individual freedom.
11 • Long-term hardware support (by Thomas Mueller on 2016-05-30 03:33:37 GMT from North America)
Viability of hardware support depends on whether the product in question is superseded by like products, such as a wireless adapter or Ethernet card, or there is nothing similar, like punched cards. One wouldn't want to replace an Ethernet card or wireless adapter just because the chip has been superseded, but even there, newer models may have higher speeds. Punched cards, at 80 bytes per card, are hopelessly inefficient for handling today's data. I was surprised in summer 2011 to see that Cardamation of Phoenixville, PA was still manufacturing and selling punched cards and related equipment such as keypunch machines (website www.cardamation.com now defunct), but they closed shop at the end of 2011. They had software drivers for DOS and Windows. I don't think there was ever any punched-card driver for any open-source OS; now it would be pretty useless and there would be nobody to test such a driver.
By the way, NetBSD still supports acorn26 (an old arm26 hardware platform) and vax, where there are very few users today.
12 • Suse (by Cor on 2016-05-30 06:19:55 GMT from North America)
Off all of the Linux distros I have tried, Suse is by far the most cumbersome to install and maintain. I currently use LinuxMint because of the difficulty I had in maintaining 1 desktop and 1 laptop with Suse installed. Suse is a fine OS, its just not my OS anymore.
13 • Update or Upgrade - how long? (by Someguy on 2016-05-30 06:48:02 GMT from Europe)
The US military obviously would like an ~50yr currency back to Unix (CPM?!) and 8" floppy discs. Some of the oldest JEOL electron microscopes used 10" (or was it 12") floppies. Every so often some ancient kit surfaces needing software, possibly hardware too, that is mission-critical. What about all the legacy machines running in 8-bit (4-bit?!) e.g. in enthusiast's attics and computer museums around the world?
We got where we are with hardware chasing software due to two massive forces: progress and greed (especially by one software company). What do most punters actually need? Maybe something a little bit faster than the 4k machine that brought two men onto the surface of the Moon? Faster, because Neil had to switch to manual for the final few seconds of descent. Faster to cope with Internet, (but cf. Arachne)? Gamers and 'social media' users maybe have fun but, apart from military/commercial applications of e.g. VR, robotics, CNC and the like, much of the soft- & hard-ware available today is overkill^2, an unnecessary luxury that panders to popular trends rather than useful tools. A return to assembler might help...
14 • Debian upgrade (by enry on 2016-05-30 06:55:10 GMT from Europe)
The review on debian upgrade for example from version 7 to 8 (jessie) is imprecise.
In fact Debian generally has the most complete and professional instructions for upgrade respect to other distributions. Instructions can be easily found in the release notes of each new stable version (for example from 7 --> 8 see) :
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
The only case in which i had difficulties for debian upgrade to a major stable version was from version 6 to 7 due to the adoption of gnome3 in debian7 that is not suitable for old machines and servers (thus upgrade from gnome2 to gnome3 is not possible (in this case the upgrade implies also a change in the desktop from gnome2 to XFCE or MATE that makes the upgrade procedure a little more difficult).
15 • Hardware, GeckoLx (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2016-05-30 07:16:10 GMT from North America)
With Standards and Open-Source, would Hardware Support be such an issue?
.
Leap was the first SUSE-related distro my fellows found responsive ¿tuned for desktop?; GeckoLinux the first promising live remix. Salud, Sam!
16 • Long-term hardware support (by Alexandru on 2016-05-30 07:20:57 GMT from Europe)
From the user perspective, the hardware is expected to be supported as long as it is possible. However supporting old hardware sometimes creates more problems than solves. And the issue is not related to HOW LONG some piece of hardware is supported, but HOW EFFICIENT the support is for given hardware piece.
There are several downsides of supporting difficult-to-support, buggy or ill-designed hardware:
1. Some drivers were designed for old API/ABI and today they would need complete rewrite in order to be supported. Having the fact developers seldom have access to ancient piece of hardware, these newer drivers will be, at best, buggy.
2. Focusing developer's time and effort to hardware only few people use leave less time / effort to support newer hardware much more people use.
3. Supporting artificially older hardware makes kernel and modules (in case of linux) larger, slower and potentially exposed to different vulnerabilities for no good reason even if you do not have this piece of hardware.
4. Etc...
For me, the good model of legacy hardware support is how Debian project supports older architectures: if there are sufficient manpower and interest to support older / less used hardware in efficient way, it is supported, otherwise the support is dropped. Of course, you can always see older sources and compile the needed driver for you, having sufficient interest.
17 • Happy Birthday (by Billy Larlad on 2016-05-30 07:54:55 GMT from North America)
Happy Birthday, Distrowatch! Here's to another 15 years for this incredible resource.
18 • Hardware support (by Woodstock69 on 2016-05-30 08:18:23 GMT from Oceania)
The question isn't how long hardware should be supported, but where drivers can be obtained. OK, obviously if the Kernel is to be the repository of all drivers for all hardware then it's going to get pretty big. But, the Kernel doesn't need to provide that function. As long as the drivers can be sourced, built, modprobed or otherwise found somewhere (yes, a central repository would be nice) that's OK.
My laptop's WiFi won't work with the current Kernel drivers (I've tried several different Kernel versions) so have to build from source. No problem. Took me 5 hours to learn (yeah, I'm slow) and now at every Kernel upgrade/ change it takes 5 seconds to get WiFi working again by issuing a couple of commands to recompile against what-ever Kernel I choose to use.
19 • Hardware Support & Happy B-Day (by JarJarA. on 2016-05-30 08:34:36 GMT from Europe)
I picked: As long as anyone continues to use the hardware. Just an idea, have one kernel just support a computer with a 32-bit x86 CPU and older. Then have a different kernel for anything above a 32-bit x86 CPU.
Personally I get a kick out of getting the most use/life out of my hardware, as possible. The longer, the better. I get happy for people, that share their stories of "older" hardware still running Linux, BSD, etc. To me this is cool. :)
I know there are certain "Linux" blog/news sites, that are self boasting about having the latest wiz-bang hardware (latest is not always best) ad nauseum. Sure anybody with the extra funds, to throw in that direction can do this, not impressed. These sites are a big MEH. I steer clear of them. To whom much is given, much is required.
A big Happy Birthday Distrowatch. Thanks for all the distro reviews and news.
Have a great week everyone.
20 • DistroWatch things (by Andy Mender on 2016-05-30 08:50:24 GMT from Europe)
@18,
You know you can register the module via DKMS on many distributions? DKMS handled automatic updates and recompiling of third-party kernel modules ;).
Thanks Jesse for including FreeBSD in your system upgrade 'assemblage'. From personal experience I can say that FreeBSD is among the most simple operating systems to upgrade. xUbuntus usually break something, Fedora used to suffer from kernel panics after a major version upgrade, etc. Rolling and semi-rolling operating systems are much easier to handle :).
@10,
I am with you, brother! I use FreeBSD and currently CRUX as my main operating systems. For all of those who value the UNIX ways, system modularity and software freedom I recommend a switch to something non-systemd :). Let's not let the GNU/Linux ecosystem be killed by greed and turned into yet another mainstream commercial product.
21 • systemd (by dave on 2016-05-30 08:52:08 GMT from North America)
"One of the most recent changes to systemd (available in version 230), forces user processes to terminate when the user logs out. On some systems, such behaviour makes sense and effectively cleans up misbehaving processes when the user leaves. However, many administrators and developers rely on processes continuing to run to perform tests, backups or other tasks after they log off."
Ah this is quite excellent, yes indeed. They don't waste time sliding us down the ol' slippery slope, do they? Yessir, this is nice. I really like it a lot. This is exactly the division we need in such a fragmented community.
Linux Corporate: JUMP HIGHER!
Joe User: ..b-but you're holding me down! My frail arms can't resist!
Linux Corporate: JUMP, YOU F#%&N LUDDITE NECKBEARD!
Joe User: OWww!
Linux Corporate: HAHAHAHA.. Your discomfort brings me pleasure. HOW I HATE YOU!
Joe User: <begins to cry>
22 • openSUSE upgrade (by Pierre on 2016-05-30 09:17:42 GMT from Europe)
First of all:
Happy birthday, DistroWatch!
Second:
It would be nice to have links in the article about the documentations used for the upgrades. I never heard of an openSUSE upgrade documentation that has 4 pages and requires so many steps.
I prefer Tumbleweed as it is rolling and has been stable for me since I started using it on my laptop and desktop alike. The few times I upgraded between major versions was in the 11.x times. And at that time I simply downloaded the Install DVD, booted it and chose the upgrade option. This was as fast as a normal install and worked perfectly for me at that time. Can't tell about an upgrade from 13.2 to Leap as I did not testdrive Leap yet or how well an upgrade performs.
#10 by Bill:
What makes you think that systemd is an 'attack on the principles of UNIX and of individual freedom'? Thought we left that discussion behind finally.
23 • @16 (by OG Loc on 2016-05-30 09:30:38 GMT from Europe)
"3. Supporting artificially older hardware makes kernel and modules (in case of linux) larger, slower and potentially exposed to different vulnerabilities"
Don't mix up the kernel source with a compiled kernel(+modules)! The binary kernel (with its modules) will be as big or small as the total size of compiled components, period. And any newer kernel parts can make it just as "larger, slower and potentially exposed" as an old hardware driver.
"4. Etc..."
When you run out of arguments (especially if they weren't all valid), then definitely throw in an "etc...." for effect. =P =D
24 • systemd in Debian (by Bill on 2016-05-30 10:01:17 GMT from Oceania)
# 22 by Pierre:
We won't leave the systemd discussion behind until we solve the problem that is systemd. It is the latest, and most insidious, move by the big corporations to take over our beloved open-source OS. There are many philosophical and technical reasons why we should not simply allow systemd and its backers to steamroll Linux, please see http://without-systemd.org/ (I am not associated with this site).
Software that does more instead of less is badly designed software. Software that uses anything other than plain text files for config, logging, etc. is not free and open. Systemd does that and more, please take the time to read what is happening. I and many others are not simply opposing it for no reason. I have 40+ years experience in the IT industry and I have better things to do with my time than get into arguments for no reason.
25 • Happy birthday! (by Fernando on 2016-05-30 10:03:34 GMT from Europe)
Love your site, keep on doing it that well for many more years!
26 • Gecko Linux and 3G modem connections (by gnomic on 2016-05-30 10:13:37 GMT from Oceania)
When last I tried Gecko Linux I found that it could not connect to the web using a 3G modem. That was perhaps 3 months ago. I fear I have forgotten the exact details. Was usb_modeswitch missing or was it one of the mysterious problem with NetworkManager examples? Perhaps someone knows whether this has been rectified? Aha, looking back I see that usb modeswitch was not included as of 160121. Budgie version.
27 • @20 (by Woodstock69 on 2016-05-30 10:21:43 GMT from Oceania)
Thanks for reminding me about DKMS. Something I will look into to automate the process, if possible.
28 • @23 (by Alexandru on 2016-05-30 10:35:18 GMT from Europe)
3.
"The binary kernel (with its modules) will be as big or small as the total size of compiled components, period".
When some old driver is not compiled into kernel neither into module, the corresponding hardware will not work. Also, old kernel with support for older hardware doesn't contain all newer drivers. Newer kernels do contain them. If no driver is ever removed from kernel, and if the kernel is compiled with the support for all hardware ever existed, its binary size (vmlinuz + modules) grows unlimited and consumes more memory.
4.
If you don't like "Etc" argument, here is its replacement:
When some hardware is ill-designed, it is better to not produce a driver for it in first place, than to put all computers at risk and to support ill-written driver for it.
29 • Hardware support... (by Zork on 2016-05-30 10:39:26 GMT from Oceania)
Having spent many hours trying to find drivers for "older" hardware I voted for 10 years...
This is even though I still have a couple of Pentium 3's ( circa 2000 ) which I still get use out of...
That will generally cover business ( who tend to depreciate PC equipment after 3-5 years and then replace it as "Past economic usefulness" and the home user who runs things until they die...
With that in mind, however, when the support finishes there still needs to be a place where the final version of a driver ( code or binary ) for a piece of hardware can be found easily... If you choose to use it then the caveat is, That it is supplied "As Is" and any issues arising from it are your own problem to deal with...
30 • @23 continuation (by Alexandru on 2016-05-30 11:04:19 GMT from Europe)
3.
"And any newer kernel parts can make it just as "larger, slower and potentially exposed" as an old hardware driver."
True. But usually when a vulnerability is discovered in new driver, it gets fixed in several hours. If new vulnerability is discovered for old / unsupported driver it can take several days / months / years to get fixed. Consider that this vulnerable driver is included in your kernel (and you don't need it because you don't have that hardware !). Your system becomes vulnerable because somebody somewhere still needs that ancient piece of hardware!
31 • hardware support... (by jay cee on 2016-05-30 11:57:52 GMT from North America)
First off, congrats d-watch ppl on wondrous run. May it long continue!
About hardware. Hereabouts we LIKE making longer use of older stuff. (Despite manufacturers wanting everyone buying today's latest-greatest xyz2k, we all know the bestest puter one buys...is the one bought NEXT YEAR! And - most puters are still used as glorified typewriters. And just how fast can you type? :)
Do want to hope for more useful info on procuring old drivers etc. (HP's website is terrible in supporting its own older hardware, f.ex.) And doing a Google search usually results in finding drivers for download just gasping with malware. Ugh. On the plus side, I just bought a slew of ink cartridges for my Lexmark x75 from wally for $10 a pop as a "discontinued" item. (Or, as the clerk ringing up the sale said, "We have to get rid of stuff that has no use any more." Yay!)
32 • Happy birthday (by Wine Curmudgeon on 2016-05-30 12:53:23 GMT from North America)
15 years on the Internet is almost unheard of. Well done.
33 • 15 Years of Distrowatch (by Jordan on 2016-05-30 12:59:45 GMT from North America)
The premier linux info site is fifteen years old now. I just want to say thank you to the operators of this great site. It's of course more than info; it's also an up to date clearing house for dozens upon dozens of linux distributions, it's also a place where linux users (and potential users) can interact and hash out various issues linux related.
Staying power says a lot about websites. And what's amazing is that distrowatch.com has not morphed into anything other than what it started out to be, except to add more info and easier ways to get around the site.
Thank you!
34 • @ #26 (gnomic) re: GeckoLinux 3G modem connections (by Sam on 2016-05-30 13:18:19 GMT from South America)
> "When last I tried Gecko Linux I found that it could not connect to the web using a 3G modem. That was perhaps 3 months ago. I fear I have forgotten the exact details. Was usb_modeswitch missing or was it one of the mysterious problem with NetworkManager examples? Perhaps someone knows whether this has been rectified?"
Hi there, were you the original reporter of that bug to the GeckoLinux bug tracker? If so, many thanks for the feedback, as I never would have noticed the issue. And yes, just last week I added usb_modeswitch and ModemManager to all eight of the GeckoLinux spins. Cheers!
35 • openSUSE documentation (by Jesse on 2016-05-30 13:43:52 GMT from North America)
>> "It would be nice to have links in the article about the documentations used for the upgrades. I never heard of an openSUSE upgrade documentation that has 4 pages and requires so many steps."
I provided links to the documentation used, including openSUSE's, in the article.
36 • Comparing live version upgrade methods (by Marc Visscher on 2016-05-30 14:07:24 GMT from Europe)
It's always nice to perform an upgrade, but from my experience I don't think this has an advantage over doing a fresh install. In my case I'm quicker setting up a fresh install rather than an upgrade from old to new.
At this point I think Linux Mint has the best papers. It's even more straight forward than Ubuntu or any other distro. Too bad Linux Mint wasn't present in this test....
37 • updating Linux distros (by David on 2016-05-30 14:38:51 GMT from North America)
For openSUSE, I would have been shocked if your upgrade would have worked, given that Leap is basically a different OS with many older packages than 13.2. Upgrading 13.1 to 13.2 would have been a better test. Ideally they would have made the "upgrade" to Leap work, but that would have probably been too difficult to be practical.
I am disappointed that you left Mageia out of your testing. I have been upgrading it from version to version since it was called Mandrake, and it has worked very well.
Also just a note that I have tested this myself too and have tested some others you left out. Solaris 11.2 to 11.3 went smooth with no issues. PC-BSD 10.2 to 10.3 bricked the system and I had to reinstall it from scratch.
38 • openSUSE (by Jesse on 2016-05-30 14:56:39 GMT from North America)
>> "For openSUSE, I would have been shocked if your upgrade would have worked, given that Leap is basically a different OS with many older packages than 13.2. Upgrading 13.1 to 13.2 would have been a better test."
Perhaps, but the openSUSE wiki has a section specifically for upgrading from 13.x to Leap. If it is so hard and/or shouldn't work, then their documentation should say so. As it is, the jump to Leap (pun intended) is treated by the wiki as just another upgrade, like 13.1 to 13.2. There is no reason for an unsuspecting new user to think the upgrade would not work, which is what I was trying to duplicate in this test.
39 • Happy 15th! (by Ray on 2016-05-30 15:03:28 GMT from North America)
Congratulations and thanks for the work you do to inform people about Linux distributions in all their variety.
40 • @Jesse Smith openSUSE upgrade problem (by Sam on 2016-05-30 15:06:48 GMT from South America)
Hi Jesse, did you run "zypper up" ("zypper update") or "zypper dup" ("zypper dist-upgrade")?
41 • openSUSE upgrade (by Jesse on 2016-05-30 15:24:47 GMT from North America)
@40: I followed the instructions step-by-step exactly as shown in the documentation. You can see the steps by following the link in the article or here: https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:System_upgrade
42 • OS upgrades (by Andy Mender on 2016-05-30 15:25:06 GMT from Europe)
@36,
"It's always nice to perform an upgrade, but from my experience I don't think this has an advantage over doing a fresh install. In my case I'm quicker setting up a fresh install rather than an upgrade from old to new."
This does not speak well of the OS you're using, me thinks :(. Usually a version upgrade is meant to be quicker than a fresh install in order to save time on installing software, setting up services, etc. Can you imagine a fresh install being more viable in a company than a version upgrade?
Think about the downtime :).
43 • 15 years (by Ian Drury on 2016-05-30 15:39:51 GMT from North America)
I've only been using Linux for 4 years, but this site is an absolute must read every day.
Happy 15th birthday DW
44 • 15 years (by Vince on 2016-05-30 15:46:24 GMT from Europe)
Happy birthday Distrowatch!
45 • systemd (by Scott on 2016-05-30 16:04:13 GMT from North America)
It seems that in Debian, at least, the change has been reverted.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394#157
46 • Hardware support (by Kazlu on 2016-05-30 16:32:52 GMT from Europe)
@16: I fully agree with you on this. But I think support should be provided for a minimum of 10 years, which seems reasonable to guarantee a decent lifetime to a computer. After that, support should go on as long as there are people ready to invest time or money in it. And, as others have already said, unsupported drivers does not mean the machine should not work any longer: you should be able to get the last version of the driver. Also, keep such a machine away from the Internet...
47 • Hardware support, systemd, upgrading. (by Arron on 2016-05-30 17:41:18 GMT from Oceania)
Congrats to DW and DWW for 15 years... even if I preferred the old “logo” of the binocs.
Hardware support: Considering a lot of heavy engineering items I work(ed) on are things like power generation consoles with a 30+ year life (one recent example is copy protected via dongle and refuses to work beyond MS Dos 3.3 – luckily I have a very old Toshiba 486 which could deal with it) I feel most IT software firms have dropped the ball badly on this issue. Ditto trying to get access to old “irrelevant” documents like wills... Even different versions of one well known Word processor cannot load other versions of itself without some “interesting” format abberations. Much as I would like to think the industry has improved, real evidence is scarce.
Systemd: to me this is trying to solve a non existent issue with a non-auditable mess. Considering some of my servers have not been rebooted since the mid 90’s (behind firewalls and have no direct internet link), I fail to see why improving the boot time has any relevance to any sysadmin – anything less than 5 minutes is OK by me... Being able to go through the boot sequence of a borked machine with a text editor and being positive there are no “additional options” is far more important than any systemd “black box bootups”. Needless to say, I moved back to Slackware (again) when OpenSuse and debian both went to systemd.
Upgrading – too many upgrade fails (Netware, DOS, Windows, Apple OS amd *nix’s) over the years means that I would never trust an upgrade again for any critical work. Desktop users with a number of similar machines – sometimes I try one to see if it saves time – mostly they work these days with a few minor tweaks.
Just my 2 cents.
48 • 15th Year! (by Bill S. on 2016-05-30 17:46:32 GMT from North America)
Thank you so much DW for setting me free, free as in free beer, to enjoy my computing again. Thanks also for the dozens of distros I never would have known existed. And thank you too for the tips and software links I have learned from your weekly articles in the last almost 10 years now. Finally, nice job Jesse on hosting my website and doing so seamlessly, thanks! Congrats on DW 15 years!!
49 • Upgrades NetBSD (by jmc on 2016-05-30 17:56:26 GMT from North America)
Just by coincidence I used NetBSD's upgrade (sysupgrade) from 7.0 to 7.0.1, it went quickly, the longest part of the process is file merging portion.
If you decided to use it, read the results carefully, it may instruct you to execute /usr/sbin/postinstall prior to reboot
NetBSD web site documentation is minimal for sysupgrade (man page is very good though), but to be honest all that is needed is the command line :) File merging process is fairly straight forward but that can be a bit confusing.
50 • Wow, 15 years went by fast! (by Bill Savoie on 2016-05-30 19:03:34 GMT from North America)
I have been loving DW since the start. Hard to believe it has been 15 years. I use to work in the millitary industrial complex, and was so happy to find your website. Now that I have been retired for 8 years, it keeps me occasionally dipping my fingers into coding.
I love Suse, but many of my systems have not been upgraded, so it was a good read to learn about the issues that Jesse Confronted. All of my systems, except for the one in the living room, boot up the browser with a tab open to Distrowatch. Trust me living in the USA state of Alabama, DW is a touch of sanity. Even got my retired library director wife to love Linux. Yes to Linux and DW for keeping all the doors open.. Thanks again.. 15 years of good service..
51 • Nvidia and Wayland (by BluPhoenyx on 2016-05-30 20:23:38 GMT from North America)
Well, I feel a bit of relief after reading that the Nvidia driver 364.12 will have support for Wayland. This was a concern for me because I prefer their cards. Plus, I need a working system to play RPG games with my wife :)
I try to avoid posting links, but for those who are curious:
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/News/New-Nvidia-Driver-Offers-Wayland-Support
Cheers,
Mike T
52 • Manjaro Openbox LiveCD login id and password (by Quan on 2016-05-30 21:21:02 GMT from North America)
Does anyone know the userid and password for livecd?
I can't find the info on their homepage. I tried root/root and live/live without any luck.
Usually the linux livecd or USB will boot straight onto a destop without user enter userid and password. Not this one.
BTW, I burned the ISO to a USB flash drive using Rufus.
Thanks!
53 • Manjaro live password (by brad on 2016-05-30 21:33:23 GMT from North America)
@52 - Usually, the username/PW combo for a Manjaro live CD is "manjaro/manjaro".
Until I recently started using Manjaro's rolling-release distributions, I was using LinuxMint, and would usually do a fresh install for an upgrade (after first making sure that I had a good backup of /home, which has always been on a separate partition. I always made sure to mount /home *without* formatting the partition on the fresh install. LM has an interesting twist on its homebrew backup utility - you have the ability to "mark" which apps you use - when you're ready to use the upgraded LM, you just "restore" the app list, which just does an "apt-get" of all your apps from the preious version.
Of the two methods, I prefer Manjaro's approach - rolling-release has been rock-solid (so far).
54 • hardware support, upgrading & systemd (by M.Z. on 2016-05-30 21:49:42 GMT from North America)
On the topic of hardware support I think its all about making sure that developers are supporting things where there is both enough demand & the will to contribute to support. The other big thing that should be done is to ensure that those who have enough know how can find the old deprecated code & try some DIY methods of getting things going. Of course if there are enough people with enough demand for specialized old hardware, perhaps they could roll there own version of Linux that's specially designed to handle lots of different old pieces of hardware, but ignores newer stuff. I don't know how far puppy & some of the other distros focused on old computers go in this direct, but it seems like they still support 64 bit software. Either way, I think resurrecting old computers that aren't supported by the newest version of Windows is a great niche that Linux & other open source projects are well positioned to fill.
On the upgrade subject, I haven't had a lot of luck getting the sort of live upgrades discussed in this weeks DW weekly. My attempts to follow the sorts of live upgrades discussed in this DW weekly were utter failures on both Mint & Fedora. I generally either roll with PCLinuxOS, or wipe the old system & install as I've done with a few Mint releases, but if the off line upgrade is considered safer I think I'll try it on my laptop when Mageia 6 comes out. I suppose my biggest question is if outside packages like Chrome would be a issue during such an upgrade. It was a bit of a pain to get netflix working on my Mageia install because of the extra steps involved in setting up security keys to handle updating Chrome, which is handled more seamlessly in Mint. Well is was initially anyway, but there were some issues after the fact there as well.
@10/24
I think my whole problem with the systemd discussions is with this part:
"It is the latest, and most insidious, move by the big corporations to take over our beloved open-source OS."
From my perspective this is where you drift into nonsense land because what your complaining about is obviously a piece of open source software & is released under that GPL, which means that any community member who can code can modify it however they want. The GPL is designed to put users & the community in control of their software. Saying something that's GPL is taking your freedom is like saying any type of discussion that you don't like that is protected by the first amendment in the US constitution must be meant to shut people up & stifle your freedom of expression. How am I supposed to take that kind of claim seriously?
All that being said I do have a certain sympathy for the complexity argument, but please keep the discussion in the bounds of reality rather than making extreme claims based on your preconceived biases. If you don't like systemd why not do more to support the distros that don't uses it rather that make ill conceived complaints against systemd? I'd also say that from my perspective the Ubuntu spyware situation was a far more serious threat to the rights of users than anything to do with systemd, but that situation seems to have been resolved, so things can go better than you expect.
55 • @53 (by Quan on 2016-05-30 21:55:41 GMT from North America)
Hi Brad!
Thanks for the info. It never crossed my mind to try that. But I will give it a shot.
I am usually a Debian/Ubuntu-based guy. I like the idea of rolling-release. I used to be on Debian-unstable distros like sidux because it was like a rolling release. Sort of.
56 • How long should hardware be supported (by aguador on 2016-05-30 22:35:19 GMT from Europe)
I have not responded to the poll because of the issues I see in calculating the periods. How do we calculate a 10 or 20 year period? From the time the last CPU or other bit of hardware was last manufactured? How do we know when a piece of hardware is "still in use?"
I suspect the best answer lies in a sort of split development in which a specific older kernel is supported specifically for older machines, meaning patching but not integration of support for newer equipment. I am thinking here of the recent CentOS 6 update that still uses a 2.x kernel.
I think the end result of such a process is likely three tiered: 1) support in new kernels for hardware up to at least 10 years old; 2) core kernel maintainer support for an LTS kernel for say another 5 years; 3) extended kernel support beyond those 15 years for a group distros devoted to older equipment (a la Ubuntu support for EOL kernels in its LTS releases when needed).
The problem for me hits home a bit as my main machine is an 12 year old laptop (non-PAE) that still functions well and which I will continue to use at least until its old 2.5" ATA drive fails and cannot be replaced. I have a 32-bit netbook that I also use daily, and support for these machines, simply for being 32-bit, is slipping away even though the hardware continues performing well. I can understand that not all hardware can be supported, but we cannot keep sending toxic, hard-to-recycle electronic waste to the trash simply because something newer and shinier has come along.
57 • openSUSE upgrade (by Gabriel (aka gabriel_3) on 2016-05-30 22:42:12 GMT from Europe)
I trust in Jessie's tests and I believe the article is an accurate description of the process, however I'm puzzled by reading about such a failure in upgrading openSUSE.
I ended up few minutes ago to upgrade my main rig from Leap 42.1 Gnome with tweaks and added repos to Tumbleweed by the netinstaller upgrading utility: after booting in the upgraded system I needed to reinstall only Gnome extensions and the GTK theme; of course I updated the base url of the added repos I'm keeping.
Leap 42.1 and Tumbleweed are fairly different beasts, nevertheless every thing ran smoothly, all the settings were kept.
Previously I upgraded many times openSUSE with close to no issue: what I read is far from my experience.
58 • systemd (by Bill on 2016-05-30 22:46:39 GMT from Oceania)
# 54: It is sad when rational discussion has to descend into personal insult. How do you know that I do not "... do more to support the distros that don't uses it ..." - I would of thought that my two posts (10 and 24) above indicate that I do just that. Also the headers of my posts indicate that I perhaps do not understand the reference to the US constitution.
All I can do is, again, please take the time to read what is happening. There is one (of many) links in my posts above.
59 • 15 Years (by dawozulo on 2016-05-30 22:58:37 GMT from Europe)
Thanks a lot for that 15 years !!!
60 • Hardware support and O/S upgrading (by mikef90000 on 2016-05-30 23:22:57 GMT from North America)
My experience is that ten years of desktop & server hardware usefulness is about the practical limit. Memory can be added, but finding a faster CPU with the same socket is near impossible and expensive. New CPU instructions (SSE2, etc) are the killer as modern software rarely has alternate paths to work around them.
Another consideration is power consumption. In Hawaii electric rates are a staggering 45 cents per kwh - a newer device can pay back quickly.
Many consumer devices (say, routers) are dangerous to keep as their firmware is seldom updated with security patches after production has ended - business opportunity here!
I follow the old school preference for fresh O/S installs. Use a separate partition on a dual boot desktop system, new Linux installs are fast and the old version is still available. Server updates are properly installed and tested first on a separate box; cutover method depends on the functionality.
61 • Software that is free as in speech (by M.Z. on 2016-05-31 01:24:39 GMT from North America)
@58
There was no insult intended beyond the idea that your argument about GPL software being used to 'take over Linux'' makes no sense & such bad arguments are counter productive to your cause. The basic concept I'm tying to convey is that software published under the GPL is like discussion in nations where free speech rights exist - it may not be popular but it is an affirmation of your freedom, not a threat to it. The notion that GPL software threatens your freedom isn't part of a rational discussion, it's absurd. When someone does something controversial with GPL software it gets forked & the freedom of your software is affirmed, not threatened. See Devuan for an example. Unless you can give me a rational explanation for why this interpretation of the situation is wrong, then your arguments about a take over make no sense.
62 • systemd (by Bill on 2016-05-31 02:05:01 GMT from Oceania)
#61: If only life were that idealistic and simple. Open source software is about choice, but systemd threatens to take some level of choice away because of scope-creep, politics and other reasons. See (this is not an exhaustive list):
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/systemd-assumptions-bullying-consent.html
http://skarnet.org/software/s6/systemd.html
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00001.html
http://www.gabordemooij.com/index.php?p=/escape_from_systemd
https://devuan.org/os/free-software
I listed some of the Linux distros free of systemd (#10 above) including Slackware and derivatives, Gentoo and derivatives, antiX, Manjaro OpenRC, CRUX, the BSDs, ... The problem is that the great majority of RedHat and Debian based distros use systemd, giving users a decreasing number of choices if they want to avoid systemd. I want to avoid it because I believe that the original developers of UNIX got it right, in contrast to much MS and Apple software. I want plain-text config, log etc. files so that I can debug, explore, tinker ... The situation is OK for me personally because I do use Slackware and Gentoo, but for a new user? Perhaps I could recommend AnitiX, Manjaro OpenRC, PCLinuxOS, Calculate, Salix - great distros but how long will they be able to hold out against the systemd dependency scope creep - in that list perhaps Calculate Linux and Salix only.
The capitulation of Debian was the real disappointment. If Debian had held out, then we really would have choice between the RedHat distros and the Debian distros, and this would have made a very real difference to systemd dependency scope creep. But now I fear that in the future more and more software will require systemd - Gnome and NetworkManager come to mind.
63 • SystemD (by Kragle on 2016-05-31 02:13:57 GMT from North America)
For some, the main issue isn't about process management, but (inter)dependency creep:
subroutines that should have clean separation becoming increasingly entangled.
Similar issues surround some Desktop Environments.
64 • Bypassing Red Team Black Hat Embrace-Extend-Extinguish (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2016-05-31 02:58:34 GMT from North America)
Some comments on your links, Bill #62, and thanks for those. I have a way for everyone to drop the systemd talk: drop Linux.
BSDs would crush Linux if they'd emit package desktop app updates in a timely (rolling) manner and offer live spins. I would use BSD myself for its superior filesystem (ZFS), kernel design, community, development methods, docs, and business friendliness. The only reason I do not are stale apps. Wake me when BSD app maintainers get out of bed to see what upstream app code is doing.
Skarnet hangs out at Alpine Linux IRC. He also hosts the Supervision Mailing List for any and all init/supervisor systems.
https://www.mail-archive.com/supervision@list.skarnet.org/
Given his personal work on init/supervisor code, I pay more attention to skarnet's critiques than anyone. Pasted: http://paste2.org/a64MgIcW
65 • systemd (by Bill on 2016-05-31 03:30:46 GMT from Oceania)
# 64 Thanks Arch Watcher for the comments and the links. I agree that the BSDs are the hidden secret in the open source OS world and I have used all of them at various stages (the big three at least). They are getting very close to what you are describing and I think PCBSD might already be there with updates, wireless networking and a friendly desktop. It may well be my next daily driver.
At least one of the BSDs will remain systemd-free forever - I would love to watch Lennart or anyone else try to push systemd on Theo de Raadt!
66 • HPD !!! (by sarimoto_01@aarys.com on 2016-05-31 05:53:52 GMT from Asia)
Conqrats and thanks for all your work.
Since I found this site, never missed a single day.
67 • Systemd war again ? Aren't you tired ? (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 06:20:17 GMT from Europe)
I'm just asking you : aren't you tired about this useless war ? Aren't you tired showing how cumbersome linux world could be ?
Do you think end users cares about which init system is used on their computers ?
Do you think you'll help free software world ? Since 1996, I saw these kinds of useless war, polluting free software world news.
Do you want to post this 'pollution' in every single distrowatch news thread ? Do you want people to use linux distributions or do you want to see them fly away ?
I'm tired. Tired of free software world. Because of people like you, pro and anti systemd fanboys. You're killing every single effort made my thousand of developers, translators, documentation writers, testers because of this stubborn war.
Go on. Stay in your ivory tower. But please, let users alone !
Sorry for my "bad english". English is not my mother tongue.
68 • Happy birthday (by far2fish on 2016-05-31 06:44:56 GMT from Europe)
It is probably less than 5 years ago I discovered DW, but I have enjoyed reading it almost weekly ever since. Keep up the good work! :)
69 • Happy birthday (by Black_Codec on 2016-05-31 06:52:38 GMT from Europe)
Yeahhh i read your articles from the beginning i think, this site was for me and i think for most people the reference point about linux and its packages distributions.
Sorry for my bad english, very good work
70 • old hardware support (by imnotrich on 2016-05-31 08:23:31 GMT from North America)
In 3rd world countries, people are still running laptops and desktops built for Windows 98 and earlier. Plus even in the USA there are folks still running older machines for economic or other reasons.
I've found Puppy 4.3.1 to be extremely capable at supporting both old and newer, current hardware even that which was created long after the distro was released. More so than many of the full-size distros folks are downloading today including Debian.
So it CAN be done without adding millions of lines of bloat.
I don't know what Barry Kauler's secret is, but I speculate it had something to do with identifying the basics/common denominators and creating generic drivers that were able to work with all sorts of hardware rather than trying to write drivers or adapt proprietary code for every chipset created since the late 1950's.
My preference would be to maintain support for older hardware, it's the environmentally friendly thing to do as otherwise many of those old systems that still work just fine will end up being sent to e-waste heaven.
71 • Wrong War and Other Matters (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2016-05-31 09:03:48 GMT from North America)
@67 Opeth74 - Hey, get lost! I want a BSD/Linux war! You missed my point: I want to escape Linux folly, not argue it. Did I forget to say, BSDs are more secure and reliable? Linus indulges indifference on security to play with shiny shiny on RedTeamBlackHat Fedora and nothing else.
@65 Bill - PC-BSD has the right ideas including security (LibreSSL, PersonaCrypt) and a non-Linux, pure-BSD desktop underway called Lumina. The main dev even built an air-conditioned shack in his backyard to run server infrastructure! I don't know any Linux dev so dedicated. Yet PC-BSD uses FreeBSD, and FreeBSD is worse than Debian for sluggish package version updates. I have no idea why. When FreeBSD maintainers do like Void or Gentoo, we'll have a winner. I also monitor security-hardened Gentoo spins with musl and Gentoo uptake of LibreSSL. We can of course thank BSD for LibreSSL.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_musl/Bluedragon
@70 - Barry Kauler did a fantastic job with Puppy and its still going strong, even since he's shifted to Android projects. A lot of his work went into the build system. He used T2 for a long while - maybe still?. Puppy has always been non-systemd and Barry is very much against the awful thing.
@Everyone - I agree on supporting old hardware. I use some myself. It's nice to see a non-SSE2 32-bit box streaming 720p vids seamlessly, once tuned. My secret sauce is tmpfs. DEs are too disk-hungry. I move their junk to tmpfs and prefer it disappearing on reboot over cluttering my disk. Actually you can run $HOME from RAM, too. I view $HOME like the Windows registry, just a place to dump app configs, not a place for user data.
72 • systemd and the BSDs (by Bill on 2016-05-31 09:26:11 GMT from Oceania)
71: Arch Watcher, I just choked on my beer. I like you more every time you post - but hey we should not respond to trolls really.
As for devoted developers, I think Pat Volkerding ran the Slackware website on a 386 in his basement until relatively recently. In the BSD world check Theo de Raadt's server rack somewhere in his house here http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg.
Of the BSDs I prefer OpenBSD - their approach is absolutely uncompromising, it is great on notebooks and the packages are not too old. And I have this image in my head of Theo telling Lennart where to shove systemd. I would pay to see that!
73 • systemd again, yes (by Andy Mender on 2016-05-31 09:27:38 GMT from Europe)
@67,
You seem to be missing the point. Above the high 'background noise' of resentment, this is not an argument, neither a war. It's a well-planned lobbying campaign of a single company called Red Hat, which decided to turn GNU/Linux into another commercial platform to sell their products and earn money. They're not even specifically covert about that, you know?
As you may not know, that's NOT what GNU/Linux is about. It's about the choice to run any software you want, in any combination you want. It's about transparency, code sharing and effort of individuals across the world to produce highest quality, openly reviewed software. The systemd cabal is tentatively working on taking this away, because it's against their agenda.
Furthermore, it's not merely about GNU software being or not being GPL-licensed. It's about creating a Moloch of a process management system (systemd), making it non-transparent and as 63 mentioned, so intertwined with essential system components that soon it will not be possible to run GNU/Linux without it.
Thankfully, for now many software projects, apart from pulseaudio, GNOME3 and the related ones, are not directly affected and as 62 pointed out, many GNU/Linux distributions do well without systemd. The problem is the FUD spread by the systemd cabal and the pressure to which even Debian succumbed, which gave an impression that systemd is already mandatory.
67, if you are OK with GNU/Linux being a mainstream product with a single desktop and almost no choice, I sincerely recommend you go back to MacOS X or Windows 10.
74 • re 67 • Systemd war again ? Aren't you tired ? (by Ned on 2016-05-31 09:28:11 GMT from Europe)
"Do you think end users cares about which init system is used on their computers?"
Who are you to tell others about what "users" do or do not care? Talk about yourself!
I am an end user and I *do* care, so I've followed the discussion since the beginning.
And insiduous ad hominem "arguments" like the ones you supply I've seen only from the systemd side - it appears they do not have any other, which does not tend to convince me that they are correct.
75 • Long Live Distrowatch (by AT on 2016-05-31 09:34:43 GMT from Europe)
15 years ... WOW. I myself have been visiting this site regularly since 2003. I can't remember any other site that I have still visiting that I used to visit even back then. (may be google). I remember Mandrake used to rule Distrowatch back then, and I moved from Redhat to Mandrake because of Distrowatch, and it hasn't stopped then. Best wishes for future ...
76 • DW (by Ilmar on 2016-05-31 09:40:42 GMT from Europe)
Happy Birthday DistroWatch! ;)
77 • Happy Birthday Distrowatch (by jymm on 2016-05-31 10:40:57 GMT from North America)
Happy birthday Distrowatch. Distrowatch was my first introduction to Linux. I stumble upon it while doing a search for an alternative to Windows. I played with Linux with distributions from OSDisc.com until we had the speed to download and burn them ourselves. I have been a dedicated Linux user now for about 4 years. We also share this birthday. I am 60 today (May 31).
78 • 15 years (by pavroo on 2016-05-31 10:57:53 GMT from Europe)
Thank's for your great job!
Keep it on as loooooong as possible!
79 • hardware support (by Pat Menendez on 2016-05-31 11:01:40 GMT from North America)
Perhaps it should be differentiated between supported and not abandoned. If the support is frozen it is still there and available even though it is not actively supported. For example, there is a lot of good viable 32 bit hardware out there, my laptop is a perfect example, Core 2 Centrino 2 GHz, 17" screen, full size keyboard. It looks and works like brand new but is 32 bit. If my favorite distro followed the crowd and simply abandoned 32 bit I'd be really disappointed. Though not actively supported the community has frozen it so those of us with perfectly good old hardware can still download 32 bit versions of several desktops. So technically it is not supported but it is also not abandoned, the plug hasn't been pulled. So perhaps "supported" needs a better definition.
80 • @67 - systemd (by Hoos on 2016-05-31 11:35:20 GMT from Asia)
Your statement that posting criticism about systemd in a DWW thread is "pollution" and your question "aren't you tired?" of the debate, ignores the fact that this current DWW issue has a news item about systemd:
"The systemd project tends to stir up debate with each new feature it implements. One of the most recent changes to systemd (available in version 230), forces user processes to terminate when the user logs out..."
So you have a new feature of systemd introduced, that has unexpected and unwelcome effects on certain computer systems.
Obviously this piece of news is going raise fresh debate since it is a new(ish) development, and seems to be evidence of a further extending of systemd's reach into various processes or services.
You might as well say you're tired of people "polluting" DWW threads with discussions about Ubuntu because people have been discussing it for ages and you're tired of it, even though DW recently posted news about the release of version 16.04.
81 • Brace yourself... Systemd war going on... Again! (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 11:39:00 GMT from Europe)
@71 :
"@67 Opeth74 - Hey, get lost! I want a BSD/Linux war! You missed my point: I want to escape Linux folly, not argue it. Did I forget to say, BSDs are more secure and reliable? Linus indulges indifference on security to play with shiny shiny on RedTeamBlackHat Fedora and nothing else."
You want an usable BSD installation ? https://cooltrainer.org/a-freebsd-desktop-howto/
And Red Hat bashing ? So 2014 :)
"Of the BSDs I prefer OpenBSD - their approach is absolutely uncompromising, it is great on notebooks and the packages are not too old. And I have this image in my head of Theo telling Lennart where to shove systemd. I would pay to see that!"
Sigh... Hate is leaving people... completely brainless.
OpenBSD is maybe the best free BSD available, but Linus was right : masturbating monkeys about security. Just look at linux 4.6 release notes and you'll see security is now taken into account.
Or this ZDnet article : http://www.zdnet.com/article/whats-new-in-linux-4-6-release-improved-security/
@74 :
"Who are you to tell others about what "users" do or do not care? Talk about yourself!"
Please, be my guest and do the same !
"I am an end user and I *do* care, so I've followed the discussion since the beginning.
And insiduous ad hominem "arguments" like the ones you supply I've seen only from the systemd side - it appears they do not have any other, which does not tend to convince me that they are correct."
I DON'T CARE which init system (sysVinit, Runit, OpenRC or systemd) is running on my computer. I want it to boot and manage services on my computer.
This quote from Den Xiaoping sums it all for me : "It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
I'm using linux distributions since 1996 and 2006 as my only system. I've used sysVinit based distros, upstart one, openrc one and systemd one. All of thgm are working.
Linux will NEVER be a desktop system if free software world continue to act like kindergarten kids bashing at each others.
Go ahead, continue with this brainless init war. You're just telling people : don't use linux distributions, it is the worst computer OS you can find.
82 • Brace yourself... Systemd war going on... Again! - part 2 (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 11:45:14 GMT from Europe)
@80 :
"Your statement that posting criticism about systemd in a DWW thread is "pollution" and your question "aren't you tired?" of the debate, ignores the fact that this current DWW issue has a news item about systemd:
"The systemd project tends to stir up debate with each new feature it implements. One of the most recent changes to systemd (available in version 230), forces user processes to terminate when the user logs out...""
You forgot the last part :
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=showheadline&story=597
"The new default systemd behaviour can be disabled (either by distributions or system administrators) by editing the logind configuration file."
It can be turned off. I agree this is not a good idea for some case. But what about classic desktop user ?
"So you have a new feature of systemd introduced, that has unexpected and unwelcome effects on certain computer systems."
Which can be turned off in /etc/systemd/logind.conf, by removing a # in front of : 'KillUserProcesses=no'
Source ? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394
"Obviously this piece of news is going raise fresh debate since it is a new(ish) development, and seems to be evidence of a further extending of systemd's reach into various processes or services."
Looks like the word cancer will be used soon.
"You might as well say you're tired of people "polluting" DWW threads with discussions about Ubuntu because people have been discussing it for ages and you're tired of it, even though DW recently posted news about the release of version 16.04."
This is different. Ubuntu, as good or as bad you think it is, doesn't transform free software people into kindergarten kids.
83 • Happy Birthday, Distrowatch, and thank you! (by Darkman on 2016-05-31 12:19:45 GMT from North America)
It is because of you, Distrowatch, that I use Linux today. I don't think you had been operational long (I have a mental image of Ladislav banging away on an old Fred Flintstone keyboard) when a friend recommended DW after I spent the better part of two days repairing the damage from yet another Windows virus. I dipped my toe in the water with Mandrake, migrated to Mepis (dear ol' Mepis), and since have tried many others. Today, it's Mint for its ease of use, but there are many excellent distributions and DW has facilitated the community's growth by providing an outstanding repository of knowledge and information. Long may Distrowatch live and prosper!
84 • @82 (by Hoos on 2016-05-31 12:27:12 GMT from Asia)
My position is that it is perfectly valid to be discussing this news item in this thread, whichever side of the fence you fall on.
Your position appears to be that if people are against systemd, their critical posts here are pollution and makes them kindergarten kids. Somehow they can't even comment on a news item without you saying they are embarking on a "brainless" init war and that their opposition is why "Linux will NEVER be a desktop system..."
You mention:
"The new default systemd behaviour can be disabled (either by distributions or system administrators) by editing the logind configuration file....It can be turned off. I agree this is not a good idea for some case. But what about classic desktop user ? .... "
Sure. But isn't it a valid discussion point, whether you are for or against, as to whether systemd should even get involved in this process? Or whether it should even be made the default position when it is not a good idea for some cases?
I am an end user. I multiboot both systemd and non-systemd distros. But I see nothing wrong with looking beyond my own personal computing needs (where systemd or not doesn't matter to my use) to try to see the big picture and wonder at the political and commercial ramifications of these developments. It's interesting to think about these things, and who knows, it may affect us end-users in the long term.
So I say, keep on bringing on the debate on both sides of the fence. I don't see it weakening Linux because continual debate will sharpen both sides and hopefully improve both sides' software projects. Like @74, I continue to follow developments.
85 • @81 • Brace yourself... Systemd war going on... Again! (by mandog on 2016-05-31 12:29:13 GMT from South America)
Its the same people over and over again its a obsession they drift into the right to preach ranging from FUD to out and out Lies.
We have had this since the birth of Linux every step forward is to some users a trigger to preach Linux FUD regardless of its benefits It makes you wonder if they really are Linux users
You are right ALL THEY ARE DOING IS KILLING LINUX,
86 • @83 (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 12:38:53 GMT from Europe)
@83
"Your position appears to be that if people are against systemd, their critical posts here are pollution and makes them kindergarten kids. Somehow they can't even comment on a news item without you saying they are embarking on a "brainless" init war and that their opposition is why "Linux will NEVER be a desktop system...""
From someone who looks at this war while being outside free software world, both sides (pro and anti systemd) are kindergarten kids.
Linux will NEVER be a desktop system until all these technical wars are burning resources.
"Sure. But isn't it a valid discussion point, whether you are for or against, as to whether systemd should even get involved in this process? Or whether it should even be made the default position when it is not a good idea for some cases?"
Systemd is managing services, like openRC or runit or sysVinit. Are processes services too ? Can be or cannot be :)
"I am an end user. I multiboot both systemd and non-systemd distros."
So am I.
"But I see nothing wrong with looking beyond my own personal computing needs (where systemd or not doesn't matter to my use) to try to see the big picture and wonder at the political and commercial ramifications of these developments."
As long as it is not something like : "Stone to death Red Hat / Debian / Canonical / Whatever", no problem. But it looks like systemd """"haters"""" want to stone to death Red Hat.
"It's interesting to think about these things, and who knows, it may affect us end-users in the long term."
As long as it is not falling into war words...
"So I say, keep on bringing on the debate on both sides of the fence. I don't see it weakening Linux because continual debate will sharpen both sides and hopefully improve both sides' software projects. Like @74, I continue to follow developments."
Do you need glasses ? :D
This war is spending resources which could have been used in improving end users tools, like desktop environment, office tools, browsers. It is more funny to strike on other people instead of working useful projects.
At least, it is what we can see here.
87 • *systemd (by Andy Mender on 2016-05-31 12:43:59 GMT from Europe)
@85,
Thank you for contributing to the 'background noise' I mentioned some posts back.
@81,
I think that's the whole problem with the systemd confusion. Although the 'end user' is constantly being taken into account, systemd is not something that should affect the 'end user', unless you're just upgrading from sysvinit/upstart to systemd. Then, your system might get borked and not reboot properly.
The people most impacted are those who manage servers, mainframes, clusters or workstations, or are personally interested in UNIX system management/administration. Saying that you (an 'end user') 'don't care' doesn't add much to the discussion, really.
Finally, unlike most other init/service management systems (openRC, Epoch, runit, etc.), systemd is 'broken by design'. It was created as a monolith with the sole intention of taking over the GNU/Linux ecosystem. Most of its merits have been already discussed, tested and implemented through and through with varying degrees of success. The already existing init systems can be adjusted to make them 'better' in one direction or another. Also, neither of them tries to dominate. Even OpenRC, which is the second most popular.
88 • @87 (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 13:47:17 GMT from Europe)
I just want to add something to your comment, specifically to this :
"It was created as a monolith with the sole intention of taking over the GNU/Linux ecosystem. "
Reminds me something... Monolithic something against micro something... Ah, yes ! Kernels.
Welcome back in 1992 :)
Monolithic, really ? Only 34 binaries in /usr/bin for Archlinux systemd package. I saw more monolithic software :)
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/systemd/
What ? Is it forbidden to make some humouristic replies ? :)
89 • Systemd (by Carlos on 2016-05-31 15:44:23 GMT from Europe)
@82 - Opeth74
"Looks like the word cancer will be used soon."
No.
The cancer of Linux is Pulseaudio.
Lennart can also shove it up his...
90 • Systemd (by Andy Mender on 2016-05-31 16:09:27 GMT from Europe)
@88,
Relevant humor is relevant. I like it :).
The point I was trying to make was that those binaries cannot be easily substituted with alternatives, nor most of them used independently.
udev alternatives exist, that's good. dbus can also be used independently from systemd, though often those two get bundled with other systemd components for convenience.
91 • @89 and @90 (by Opeth74 on 2016-05-31 16:46:16 GMT from Europe)
@89 :
Didn't have a single problem with pulseaudio for at least... 3 years or so ?
@90 :
"The point I was trying to make was that those binaries cannot be easily substituted with alternatives, nor most of them used independently."
Okay. I understand it better this way.
There is one working alternative to udev, it is eudev. Devuan's vdev is not really usable on a daily basis.
It is the same problem for Xorg, in a way... But I didn't see anybody cursing at it.
92 • Pulseaudio (by Carlos on 2016-05-31 17:29:49 GMT from Europe)
WHEN it works, it sounds really bad.
No resampling for me, direct alsa sounds Much better.
But then, I can't tolerate 128k Mp3 and some people are happy with it.
93 • Take the context (by kozaki on 2016-05-31 18:54:49 GMT from Europe)
Hi!
The main commercial OSes oldest supported version currently requires a 2006 or newer machine (dual core CPU with PAE, NX and SSE2 with 2+GB RAM for the "marketing king OS"). Though I would probably not recommend it to my brown eyes darling for her 2009 Intel Poulsbo netbook, which in contrast is happy to serve under Slackware linux based Porteus ;)
How much time a year does it takes to keep Linux compatible with the vast amount of Pentium3/Athlon [1] to Atom boxes that can happily let many enter or use the digital realm a couple of hours a day with ease? From a home router or NAS to a light office, retro-gaming or dev machine?
In the meantime someone better informed than me can explain, I vote for a ten years or better as possible support.
[1]: E.g. my test of the latest SliTaz linux on a Pentium3 128Mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0PAy9VjKaU
94 • systemd (by Charles Burge on 2016-05-31 18:55:00 GMT from North America)
I've been mostly neutral in the philosophical debate regarding systemd, though I like it because it provides some measure of uniformity across distros. That is, there's a consistent way to start/stop services. However, this new change is disturbing and it DOES affect end users who don't care what's under the hood. If previously I could SSH into my computer, start a long download via wget and then log out and let it finish... and now I can't do that anymore... that's a significant change in functionality. Now we're beyond philosophical debates. This could potentially lead to a fork, which will make the Linux landscape even more fragmented. Let's hope the systemd maintainers come to their senses and reverse this change.
95 • systemd addendum (by Charles Burge on 2016-05-31 19:01:35 GMT from North America)
In my haste to post the above (#94) I hadn't realized that there's an option to disable the new behavior. That's good to know. Still, I find it unsettling when new features are imposed on an unsuspecting public and enabled by default. It would be a lot less disruptive to have new features DISABLED by default, unless they are absolutely required for some new functionality.
96 • 89 • systemd • 92 • pulseaudio (by Somewhat Reticent on 2016-05-31 19:04:39 GMT from North America)
If ALSA works for you without the added complexity/layer of pulseaudio, be thankful, that's good. Sounds like Carlos's setup would have wanted (at least) better (non-default) tuning of pulseaudio, as would anyone whose hearing is still good.
For many, when HDMI became cost-effective, the dearth of GUI and documentation for ALSA (and OSS) became a strong motivation for accepting (something like) pulseaudio.
.
.
I agree systemd should not affected end users, but dependency-creep has frustrated many as updates break so many things.
.
.
Complexity can be mesmerizing, until some spoilsport genius spotlights the simple truth.
97 • systemd "wars" and "haters" (by Ned on 2016-05-31 19:48:39 GMT from Europe)
"I DON'T CARE which init system (sysVinit, Runit, OpenRC or systemd) is running on my computer."
Then just shut up and let people who do care voice their concerns.
You are the one talking about "war" and "hate", and are branding people who care about this issue and do not like systemd as "haters".
That is behaviour I have until now seen only in systemd supporters - behaviour which helps to convince me that the side who is against systemd is correct.
98 • systemd (by Cág on 2016-05-31 20:46:34 GMT from Europe)
Finally. Glad to see people understand that RH is evil and encourage others to switch to BSDs. In my humble opinion, the so-called (@67) "war" will never end, only if one day Poettering and his team will announce: "Lads, we made too many mistakes. Our software sucks. By the way on my desktop I use OpenBSD, JACK and runit."
@62 Bill, Puppy, PC-BSD and GhostBSD are easy to use. If you remember, a couple of months ago ubuntuBSD appeared. In my opinion, one of my the most favourite distributions NetBSD is relatively easy too, considering the amount of documentation.
If BSDs lack something, it is the file system - UFS is old and slow comparing to ext4, hardware support - it takes some time for new stuff to be supported and probably the fact that OSSv4, while being an architectural advance to ALSA, lacks support of many programmes, the development stagnates also. Other than that, they are superior, think of cleaner code, kind and smart (Linus doesn't like being "professional") professionals in the community and the adherence to the Unix standards. There probably will be no bad surprises, when using BSDs, like reinventing the wheel and exploring America again, the thing is, in my opinion, happening now: Wayland, Mir, systemd with Lennart's inability to understand what su is[0](for full list of "inventions" it's enough to look at the changelogs).
[0]:https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622
99 • systemd (by Bill on 2016-05-31 22:18:22 GMT from Oceania)
97: Thank you, you and several others above responded better that I could have to the verbal diarrhoea coming from Opeth74.
98: Ahh, thanks, of course I forgot Barry K's brilliant Puppy Linux (and Void, well worth watching) and probably others. I am downloading GhostBSD now ...
100 • systemd 'debate' (by M.Z. on 2016-05-31 22:47:04 GMT from North America)
@62/systemd debaters
I think the fundamental problem I have with the systemd 'debate' remains the fact that the anti systemd crowd is so intent on spreading FUD about a piece of GPL software 'infecting everything' as part of some corporate takeover. The entire argument seems based on the slippery slope fallacy, which is generally a very weak argument. As far as reduced choice goes, well you still have options does it really matter if there a half dozen or a million distros to chose from so long as most users can get one that suits them? No one can take your choices away as long as the software is GPL & nothing can prevent someone from forking & creating another distro without systemd. This entire piece of the argument is worthless FUD, with perhaps a few well rationalized but totally incorrect assertions thrown in.
I will admit that there probably are smart & well meaning people with gripes against systemd, but this corporate take over talk is utter BS. I'm sure there are a million and one arguments that sound good on paper, but the problem is that very smart people are often very good at rationalizing bad and flawed opinions. If any contract means anything them I think the GPL will continue to stand the test of time as a license that protects the rights & freedoms of users, & no one has given any half decent reason not to think so in their answer here on DW. I think a fair amount of it comes down to people not recognizing the slippery slope argument for what it is. See the fairly short into on this Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
101 • @100 • systemd 'debate' (by mandog on 2016-05-31 23:18:14 GMT from South America)
I think that was very well put I will not add anything
102 • Init systems (by Zork on 2016-06-01 00:39:31 GMT from Oceania)
Linux is all about personal choice...
Whether it is Distros, Desktop Environments, Package Management or Init Systems you choose what you want to use and install/adjust your system appropriately...
It is not useful, however, to criticize another's personal choice about what they wish to use... If it works for them and they're happy with it then its none of my business... It is not my place to proselytize the virtues of what I am using and demonise what I'm not...
103 • FWIW debian without systemd (by RollMeAway on 2016-06-01 02:35:15 GMT from North America)
Early on debian claimed one could not install systemd, and use systemd-shim. No problem.
I have tried running both testing and unstable this way. Many problems.
K3b and hplip for example will not install without systemd.
What has an init system got to do with burning a CD, or accessing your printer?
Many other packages also, and the list continues to grow, as the systemd tentacles creep into our systems.
The two mentioned above, I want. and need.
Hoping devuan manages to stay together and mature.
104 • 15 years! (by drizzt on 2016-06-01 03:21:38 GMT from Oceania)
Great milestone reached - well done and congratulations!
Thanks for making distrowatch available, and all else that you do for all of us. It is very difficult to please everyone as each person is different and has their own opinion, but you have done a remarkable job. i'm sure many have benefitted from this site. Hope to see many many more years to come for distrowatch and the team involved. Keep publishing :)
105 • DW 15 years OLD! (by RollMeAway on 2016-06-01 04:09:58 GMT from North America)
Time to drop this OLD site.
Got to be something newer and better !
Nah, just kidding. DW just gets better with age.
106 • Distrowatch almost-distro (by cry together / fight apart on 2016-06-01 04:14:23 GMT from Oceania)
A distrowatch entry on the front page !!! DISTROWATCH HAS A DISTRO, WHAT IS IT ??? - oh wait. Heart skipped a beat and I almost cried. (No shame there, afterall for music lovers what would the world be without crying songs?)
107 • @95 and others. (by Opeth74 on 2016-06-01 06:40:28 GMT from Europe)
@95 : "In my haste to post the above (#94) I hadn't realized that there's an option to disable the new behavior. That's good to know. Still, I find it unsettling when new features are imposed on an unsuspecting public and enabled by default. It would be a lot less disruptive to have new features DISABLED by default, unless they are absolutely required for some new functionality."
Indeed, setting it off by default will be better.
@96 : Pulseaudio was horrible to set up a few years ago. Nowadays, it is really simple to start.
@97 : "Then just shut up and let people who do care voice their concerns."
1% of linux users? 2%?
I was using war and hate because it is the good words to qualify what is going on.
"That is behaviour I have until now seen only in systemd supporters - behaviour which helps to convince me that the side who is against systemd is correct."
@98 :
So free software is a believe, a religion? You're telling RedHat is evil... Well, it is not a technical word, here.
BSD ? Besides GhostBSD - which I do appreciate a lot - and the heavy as an elephant PC-BSD, BSDs are not really usable in a day to day computing environment.
@99 :
Thanks for helping laughing my bottom off here :)
@100 :
"No one can take your choices away as long as the software is GPL & nothing can prevent someone from forking & creating another distro without systemd. This entire piece of the argument is worthless FUD, with perhaps a few well rationalized but totally incorrect assertions thrown in. "
Thanks a lot :)
@103 :
"What has an init system got to do with burning a CD, or accessing your printer?"
What? Printing using systemd? On my computer printing is managed through cups. The only relation with systemd is starting or stopping cups service on demand.
As far as I know, OpenRC, runit, sysVinit or systemd provides tools and options to manage printers...
For runit and cups : http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#cups
For openrc and cups : https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Printing#Installing_and_configuring_CUPS
Well... CD burning, I can't say :)
And for Devuan... As long as Wheezy is still alive, Devuan won't be first choice for people who reject systemd.
108 • systemd (by far2fish on 2016-06-01 06:52:33 GMT from Europe)
In regards to #102's comment "Linux is all aboubt choice", I would like to add that the the choice has already been made. Most of the mainstream distros has opted in for systemd. Either through a democratic process or through a top-down decision.
Regardless if you are for or against systemd, there isn't really much to discuss any longer. Either you continue to use your systemd distro and try to influence it at the next crossroad, or you go for Devuan, Gentoo or somethign else - even BSD.
This is not meant as fuel on the fire. I am pretty neutral in the systemd discussion. The choice has been made. Adapt or move on.
109 • systemd (by Andy Mender on 2016-06-01 07:32:22 GMT from Europe)
@100,
It's true that smart people tend to rationalize logically flawed concepts. However, the argument that 'Systemd is GPL-licensed. You can always fork it!' isn't particularly strong either. Firstly, most don't have the resources Red Hat has. Secondly, it's difficult to work without prior expertise and a certain lack of related documentation. Thirdly, forking systemd is not needed, as many other init systems offer similar capabilities, yet still adhere to the 'UNIX way'.
As I mentioned at some point, the problem is not systemd itself, but the fact it absorbs existing key system components and places itself as a pivotal dependency of higher-level software like a network manager or desktop environment, making it mandatory for distributions to adopt.
@108,
I wholeheartedly agree. Our current discussion is purely academic with the only conclusion that distributions without systemd DO exist and they are perfectly viable in the long run. Yes, the current GNU/Linux reshaping requires a return to the 'tried and tested' UNIX approaches for system management. However, this makes newcomers appreciate how clean and comprehensive those approaches really are :).
To the 'die-hards' I recommend CRUX.
110 • Distrowatch 15 (by Dk on 2016-06-01 09:19:08 GMT from North America)
Happy 15th Birthday Distrowatch.
Thank you Distrowatch for all you've done and all to come.
Long Live Open Source...
DK
111 • Monkey Lust Conspiracy Week (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2016-06-01 11:45:48 GMT from North America)
Those who love systemd can keep systemd. If you have a problem with alternatives, step off a cliff. Distrowatch is ... drum roll ... a place to watch distro developments. Not all are systemd. You see wars because you want to take over. I don't.
OpenBSD made LibreSSL. Thank you, monkeys. Linux distros now uptake it (Gentoo talking, Alpine real soon now, Void already). Other distros have LibreSSL in repos. It's a monkey orgy! Now here's my question. Why did monkeys beat Linux to it?
Answer: Linus masturbates on shiny shiny over important matters like security, which he famously brushes off, even post-Heartbleed. Funny thing, Linus runs RedTeamBlackHat, on which the company's top customer, NSA, runs a global spy network; yet Linus doesn't call NSA security masturbators for wanting a hole in everyone's boxen. Where's potty mouth when you need him.
Lennart, working for RedTeamBlackHat, contracting to NSA, re-architects Linux, with unlimited mission creep for what is no longer an "init" but an adjunct kernel growing like kudzu. I leave to your imagination how RedTeamBlackHat keeps Big Brother funding going. NSA must love systemd.
Filesystems...UFS? I would never use UFS. BSD has ZFS. But how boring, this week let's go full-tilt conspiracy. Supposedly I'm all wet to assume corporations seek and exert control over markets.
BiteMyApple and MegaSuck keep paying customers in walled filesystem gardens way past expiry. BiteMe engineers themselves call HFS+ crap. With their billions these firms could ship ext4 and ZFS drivers next week for good interop. They won't. Enjoy your walled gardens, suckers.
Even SSL certification is a vacant-lot scam to profit the browser cartel, as others have noted. Mozilla rakes in huge fees while pretending to promote FOSS and choice. My foot. Offer crypto that doesn't require home equity to get a stupid wildcard cert. Now you're talking freedom.
PulseAudio gives one thing over bare ALSA, networking. I'm sure NSA monkeys like it. Just think, their network runs PulseAudio! Typical of Lennartware, PulseAudio immunifies itself from normal administration, satisfying monkey lust worldwide.
http://www.beastwithin.org/blogs/wolfheadofselfrepair/2013/07/pulseaudio-insidious-linux-malware
Pros use JACK. Pulse runs on ALSA. If you don't need networked audio, ditch it for basic ALSA. Simpler systems are cleaner, more secure, more reliable, and easier to understand.
112 • Long term support is important because... (by Ian on 2016-06-01 13:39:18 GMT from Europe)
Users frequently switch to Linux because their old Windows release comes to end of support. At that point they're faced with paying MS for an upgrade AND with buying faster hardware to cope with the latest bloated release of Windows.
That's when Linux has the best chance to make a new convert, and tempt people away from Windows. But to be truly tempting it has to be possible to at least trial Linux on their existing - very old - hardware.
At time of switching to Linux such users are quite likely to be running ten-year-old hardware, possibly older. (XP had a 13-year supported life - and some XP installs will have been upgrades on Win2K hardware or even earlier.)
These new Linux users need support through at least five years to cement their relationship with Linux. Otherwise, if they find the have to buy new hardware just to get into Linux, then they'll probably go out and buy a new PC with Windows pre-installed instead.
So supporting older hardware helps bring in new Linux users.
113 • Systemd corporate stuff (by Jordan on 2016-06-01 13:55:10 GMT from North America)
Well there is a corporation pushing systemd. I won't name them because I don't like them and I root for their demise in favor of other, smaller distro entities out there. I like seeing them drop on dw's page hit list.
But as said so many times in different ways: linux has choices and the systemd choice is offset by other init systems and even by open source operating systems that are other than linux, such as BSD.
114 • ALSA (by Kragle on 2016-06-01 15:19:16 GMT from North America)
"If you don't need networked audio, ditch it for basic ALSA."
Indeed, if an intermediate server layer isn't needed, why add one?
"Simpler systems are cleaner, more secure, more reliable, and easier to understand."
How about well-documented and easy to set up? Why is that too much to ask?
115 • @111 • Monkey Lust Conspiracy Week (by mandog on 2016-06-01 15:23:19 GMT from South America)
Wow I think you have finally gone to the dark side this week Perhaps you need to take a break before they take you to the Funny farm HA HA, that's a joke by the way?
Seriously you have your opinions and as do others that visit here but you miss the point,
The anti do all the preaching and the pro are told to shut up this is a Linux BSD news porthole, We all have a right to reply not just the people trying to force and dictate to others others to there point of view ask yourself why did DW ditch BSD in favour of Linux.
I used BSD for years till it got so far out of touch to be viable as a desktop, Its great PCBSD is working on a BSD dedicated desktop 20years late but it is a step forward in the right direction they are also working on a system management.
Its also great we have choice of what we use that is what makes Linux so versatile if you don't like something you can use a alternative as there are many to choose from If you don't like a distro and the way its going use another of the 700+ distros there will be one that suits your needs better still make your own then other can have a opinion on your work?
In reply to your post aimed at me last https://forum.manjaro.org/t/community-vs-manjaro-editions/2616/64 confirmed by all the staff including artoo
Manjaro openRC are not official releases just spins.
@113 If RH packed in tomorrow Ubuntu would step into there shoes and Linux would then be even more splintered remember according to canonical it is Linux nothing to stop them then.
116 • Choice? Only for supergeeks. (by thereisnochoice on 2016-06-01 15:38:24 GMT from Europe)
How is there choice for the end-user if "all of the desktop environments depend on" pulseaudio, as the article linked by #111 states?
Same thing goes for systemd (although I have no reason to hate it): almost all the popular and non-geek-user compatible distros appear to have converted to systemd. BSD or Slackware or Gentoo or unofficial and experimental spins are fine for users who really know what they are doing - anybody else does NOT really have a choice. (The only exception seems to be PCLinuxOS, but that distro has incompatibilities with my hardware.)
117 • Sanity in the systemd "debate" (or "wars" if you prefer) (by Pearsonpf on 2016-06-01 15:58:40 GMT from North America)
A) This discussion is appropriate due to a news item in this week's weekly. It's an important discussion because its general (near-universal) acceptance will have a major impact on the Linux ecosystem, including the often overlooked embedded or hardened environments.
B) When looking at *nix from a certain angle, a wonderful beauty is that there are different choices for different needs/wants (some say too many choices, but that's another discussion). This variety comes from the ability to compose a system from smaller, mostly independent, pieces. From *that perspective* something like systemd appears to destroy that beauty. Perhaps that appearance is wrong or exaggerated, but it is still there.
C). Yes, this "war" makes the Linux community appear fractured. Again, this may be wrong or exaggerated (I think it's exaggerated). I believe that's because Linux appeals to problem solvers, so the discussion tends to be on the problems to be solved; they tend to be public because of the open and shared nature of OSS. We need to do a better job of keeping our common interests publicized as well.
D) Yes, personalities and communication styles are hindering the public image of systemd. The responsibility for this lies on both sides. Those criticizing systsemd should focus on logical, concrete non-attacking statements preferably offering alternatives. Those proposing ("pushing") systemd should ensure that stakeholders are considered, criticisms are answered logically and non-attacking.
E) I've heard from system administrators who greatly prefer systemd, describing its simplicity (as a user/administrator).
F) I, personally, don't think systemd is trying to "take over the world" maliciously. I think its developers believe they have an excellent solution to known difficulties, so )from their perspective) of course they think everyone should use it. The debate is about how right or wrong they are.
118 • A bit more on systemd (by Pearson on 2016-06-01 16:45:41 GMT from North America)
I'm no apologist for systemd (I'm not fond of the breadth of its impact, I'm too uninformed to be dogmatic), but there is an excellent post on reddit from "the primary maintainer for Arch's init scripts for a while" about why Arch adopted systemd:
https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc
A nice quote from that post, which provides an excellent perspective:
"What most systemd critics consider 'bloat', I consider necessary complexity to solve a complex problem generically. "
119 • systemd discussion (by Sam on 2016-06-01 17:30:25 GMT from North America)
1. Installed latest Manjaro OpenRC in VirtualBox. Doing an update (all 266 of them) caused the system to be non-bootable. I was disappointed. I'm hoping the next update to the install CD will fix whatever has broken.
2. Linux isn't fractured per se... it's "corporate" discussions are just public. There are people at Microsoft, Apple, etc., who vehemently argue against some of the company policies, or for certain features, etc. Anyone who works for a large tech giant like that will know these are pretty common, just not public. That's the difference between Linux here and say Windows or OSX. Instead of having a CEO to tell you what to do, you just have smaller entities allocating their resources. Manpower wins.
120 • openSuSE Upgrades (by Shrek on 2016-06-01 17:39:47 GMT from North America)
I have been an openSuSE user since 8.1. More often than not upgrades from one version to the other either fail, or become so cumbersome not to be worth the time. Love the OS, but have come to realize that if you want the latest version, backup, reload with a fresh OS.
121 • @119 • systemd discussion (by mandog on 2016-06-01 17:56:30 GMT from South America)
1. Installed latest Manjaro OpenRC in VirtualBox. Doing an update (all 266 of them) caused the system to be non-bootable. I was disappointed. I'm hoping the next update to the install CD will fix whatever has broken.
I think that may be to do with vbox I Just did a Manjaro OpenRC install on metal on a laptop the same updates with no problems,
I would seek advice on the forum its very friendly
122 • Strength of the GPL & systemd alternatives (by M.Z. on 2016-06-01 18:21:56 GMT from North America)
@109
Your argument against the power of the GPL might be compelling if I were only talking about systemd in & of itself & it were as complex as some seem to thing it is; however, there have already been multiple forks of entirely different projects over the systemd issue. As I indicated in comment #61, these multiple forks of both init systems & entire distros do nothing but reaffirm the freedom of your software. At the distro level you have multiple preexisting options like PCLinuxOS & new options like the Debian fork Devuan. At the init level you again have multiple preexisting options as you mentioned, but you also have an actual fork of systemd itself called uselessd that attempts to create a simplified version of the same init software. See here:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc5MzA
On the larger topic of other dependent software, well last I heard the worst offender was Gnome and some big distro had already created a 'shim' or some such thing that would make the DE work without systemd installed (was it Gentoo?). Here again we have an example of the nature of open source at work because the internal components can be either forked or substituted to get your distro working without systemd. I'll admit that there may be some things lost in a divide between systemd only software & more independent software; however, you will almost certainly be able to get the most important components working without systemd for a good long time to come. There may be a few bits here & there where a substitute has to be found, but given just how many interchangeable components are available for desktops alone on Linux it should be fairly easy to get a fully functional distro without systemd for the foreseeable future.
As for me, I'll keep using both distros with & without systemd because I don't care that much, but the FUD on the issue is very annoying.
123 • systemd FUD (by Jordan on 2016-06-01 20:41:21 GMT from North America)
I don't yet feel much of the F, the U, or the D. But I do feel like never using Gnome again, having seen it get trashed with updates after having to install extensions just to get the "top bar" or other aspects of the WM the way I prefer.
Yep there are plenty of other WMs to choose from, and the systemd tentacles do not reach every one of them.. yet. I just like choices and the whole systemd thing seems to fly in the face of that.. right from the kernel out to the WM.
124 • Sad about dwendling 32-bit support (by RollMeAway on 2016-06-02 02:22:28 GMT from North America)
Forums and downloads are most active with new users, and new users are likely to have 64-bit machines.
So the discussions and downloads are most active for 64-bit systems.
32-bit users are more likely to have been active for years, and need less help.
Especially for a slow rolling release.
PCLinuxOs is a prime example here. I last downloaded an iso in July 2011.
I have visited the forum once or twice a year, only to contribute money to keep it going.
Contributions don't relate to 32-bit or 64-bit, so the maintainers don't know 32-bit users like me exist. (until the donations stop).
I suspect many other distros have the same blind problems.
A poll here on DW several months ago showed roughly half the users that visit here still run 32-bit. Should have looked that up and been precise, but the point is made.
125 • Kudos_for_DistroWatch's... (by k on 2016-06-02 11:36:27 GMT from Europe)
... 15y contribution to the Linux revolution, and the community that depends and thrives on it.
Much kudos and thanks, sincerely, and MANY HAPPY RETURNS!
126 • support length (by Tim Dowd on 2016-06-02 13:24:48 GMT from North America)
I have been thinking about this week's poll question and how to answer it... and I don't think I can. The place I'm getting hung up is the word "should," which implies an obligation that I don't think you can have in a world where software is given both gratis and libre. Saying that any FOSS developers have an obligation to supply support to anything is like getting mad at a friend who is helping you move because they can only work a couple of hours. They still did something for nothing, and it's hard to get mad when they can't do it any more.
The question is relevant for OEM OS providers, and I think we have two egregious examples in the last ten years: the dropping of support for XP by Microsoft when a quarter of the world's computers were still using it, and the abandonment of the ppc32 architecture by Apple. For these situations, I think the number of users should dictate the end of support.
I think the argument from last week over PCLinuxOS (which I'm guessing is what prompted this poll) was especially unfair to the developers, because the i386 architecture is in no way losing support from the base distros. It seemed like people were getting mad at a guy who had given them their preferred distro for a decade and they would be slightly inconvenienced by having to move to Debian or Ubuntu.
127 • Upgrades review (by Kazlu on 2016-06-02 16:41:57 GMT from Europe)
Very interesting review about upgrades. Are you considering doing others in the same vein in the future, focusing on other upgrade methods? I am particularly thinking about off-line upgrade (Mageia, Ubuntu...) and assisted backup - fresh install - restore (Mint...).
128 • GeckoLinux (by Lizard on 2016-06-02 23:42:50 GMT from North America)
Installed the XFCE edition to my hard drive. Very nice. The thing that is usually a stumbling block on some distros, is CITRIX. I had no trouble Installing the CITRIX client on GeckoLinux. This is really an outstanding effort. I hope GeckoLinux will be around for many years to come and not disappear as many one person distros tend to do. The installer was a bit unusual compared to most Linux distros. I used the expert option and was able to get it figured out. I have 4 hard drives so it can be tricky sometimes. GeckoLinux seems to be a painless way to get started with OpenSuse. Kudos!
129 • GeckoLinux (by TreeToad on 2016-06-03 08:47:14 GMT from Europe)
"Note: This image is configured for UEFI and may not boot on non-UEFI hardware" I can confirm that the Plasma DE on my desktop, it does not boot to live mode. It was worth a shot. Thanks for the project and the efforts.
Link for warning (click physical): https://susestudio.com/a/OO38wm/geckolinux-plasma-stable#appliance-downloads
130 • GeckoLinux (by erinis on 2016-06-03 09:01:34 GMT from North America)
@ 1 comment. Thanks Sam. Looking good and works like a charm. No drawbacks or bitching here. Good job buddy. Thanks for the 15 years Distrowatch. The reason we come back is for your support and ambition for people like Sam and others who make it possible. With an open heart I thank you.
131 • GeckoLinux (by Jordan on 2016-06-03 14:21:51 GMT from North America)
Good somebody is successful with the GeckoLinux install. I was not. After several tries on my spare HP laptop I gave up.
It ran live okay, but at some point during the install process it would always stop, with an error stating that there was no hard drive detected. lol.. sorry.. but I've never seen that one.
Anyway.. I'll keep an eye on the GeckoLinux site. I like the idea of a tweaked Suse for us. ;)
132 • GeckoLinux LXQt (by dick chenary on 2016-06-03 14:33:52 GMT from North America)
GeckoLinux LXQt... works perfectly,
it's the-spin I have long been hoping to see,
OS & DE... coalesced expertly.
Thanks Sam.
PS - would you please add "Recoll" to the repo
133 • GeckoLinux (by Waffeler on 2016-06-03 14:50:49 GMT from Europe)
No success, only a reboot "loop". No live. Thanks for the try.
134 • Support Length (by M.Z. on 2016-06-03 18:05:42 GMT from North America)
@126
I largely agree with all your sentiments, but I think that there is one critical point relevant specifically to open source projects & that is making code for projects with reduced support available to other developers. I'm not sure how much distros differ in the way they work to support hardware & am unfamiliar with the the development process, but I certainly notice occasional significant differences in how distros support identical hardware. The ideal situation would of course be that all the distros worked closely enough with upstream projects that everything works perfectly as soon as one distro gets it right, but when it comes to older hardware it might be best to put everything in a well organized 'scrap yard' so others can reuse & modify as necessary. I'm not sure how useful it would be to distros like puppy, antix & others that aim for low resource usage & older hardware, but some sort of software scrap yard could potentially do a lot for projects with that sort of focus & making sure the code is still available just in case would would be very much in the spirit of open source.
135 • Congratulations! Distrowatch (by raymundo flores on 2016-06-03 21:07:37 GMT from North America)
Cheers on you! Don't forget to celebrate! ;)
136 • Hardware support (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2016-06-04 08:45:50 GMT from Europe)
The solution to the hardware support conundrum could be having the installer to detect your hardware and then, if required, to download from a repository the appropriate kernel, modules, drives, firmware, etc. In certain cases, this might even imply recompiling the kernel, but this could be done on the cloud and then that kernel could be added to the repository. That way both new and old hardware could be supported without images growing too big.
137 • @136 • Hardware support (by mandog on 2016-06-04 15:59:07 GMT from South America)
I have a 14 year old HP that i can install any modern distro on with no problem
+ there are many distros out there for older hardware, Remember progress moves forward laptops are cheaper now than ever my 5 year old non top brand notebook for £170 ended up as a Toshiba still on same batteries single core 64bt compatible runs win10 and gnome 3 like a dream.
Support is not easy when I started with Linux the kernel was under 20mb now its nearly 60mb and totally bloated for modern machines, so it can support older hardware so 10 years is fine, then you the user must except you have to use distros suited to the older software like antix it will run on 50mb of ram flies on a modern AMD/Intel machine.
138 • @137 Hardware support (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2016-06-04 16:45:02 GMT from Europe)
It is kind of ironical that someone from your country should support programmed obsolescence. We are running out of fossil fuels and all kind of metals and minerals. Our economic system is doomed. In not so many years we will be reusing and recycling as much as we can. The arrogance of our civilisation is coming to an end.
139 • @118 Article Link (by 2damncommon on 2016-06-04 23:14:03 GMT from North America)
https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "the primary maintainer for Arch's init scripts" stating that "Arch's initscripts were incredibly stupid" like a chef at a restaurant stating "our recipes are bad" so now we buy or stoves, pots and pans, and ready prepared sauces from a new company?
140 • @138 Hardware support (by mandog on 2016-06-04 23:44:46 GMT from South America)
I think you got that wrong the USA /EU are the biggest plunderers of the worlds resources. 14 year old HP laptop still works what are you on about. If you can't read English I stated that after ten years users should use a distro that supports older hardware not the latest what has that got to do with wasting resources nothing, I don't have a smart-phone a Ipad or any toys like you people in western countries I don't waste money on new cars you can run a old car for 20years before it does the damage to the environment that producing one new car does Where do all the old Iphones go we are talking throw away 6mths old the same with ipads, Soon the chips will be fitted with timer chips so they stop functioning after a predetermined time 3-5 years come on get real please
141 • anticapitalista's_solution (by k on 2016-06-05 07:18:53 GMT from Europe)
@136, 137, and 138, by Linux Apocalypsis and mandog
Thank you for your interesting and informative comments and ideas. 'Linux Apocalypsis',
possibly rolling-release distros come nearest to the solution you proposed but, for the
time-being, after fairly long-term use of antiX, I am inclined to also appreciate and agree with
'mandog''s assessment of this very efficient and economical -- resources and time sparing --
adaptation and evolution of Linus's Linux concept. It seems to provide a most viable solution
to the current state of waste and want (frustration) that seems to plague modern capitalism.
Number of Comments: 141
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