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1 • A mix of 32-bit and 64-bit (by Hugo Masse on 2015-06-29 00:25:48 GMT from South America) |
I voted for the second option: a mix of 32-bit and 64-bit. The answer should be simple. The good old hp mini I bought five years ago got a new lease on life thanks to LTS Linux Mint 13, Wheezy in its #! iteration, MX14 and Puppy in a usb. It also has Windows 7 but it's a horrible experience so I never go there.
2 • BSD (by Bob Simon Dave on 2015-06-29 00:55:59 GMT from Oceania)
Hi Jesse, really loving the attention you are giving to the *BSDs.
I usually find it quite hard to get GNU/Linux and BSD information in the same place, with the same level of detail.
Actually I find it hard to get BSD info/news at all but maybe it's just me.
3 • MidnightBSD and Johnathan Riddell (by Will B on 2015-06-29 00:57:21 GMT from North America)
I too tried MidnightBSD and came to a similar conclusion. I thought it was supposed to be 'desktop friendly', but it seems half-done and while I use a desktop on FreeBSD every day, Midnight seemed unworkable. Too bad, might have been a cool OS otherwise.
Wow, did Johnathan Riddell *leave* or was he actually ousted? The announcement above just sounds like a bunch of corporate double-speak to me. I don't know Johnathan personally, but this would be one more strike against Ubuntu if he was removed because he had valid concerns about how things were being run (especially the whole question about where donations went).
Glad we have some distro choices out there, but wanting something that's not Ubuntu-based, doesn't have systemd (personal preference) and actually works well is getting a bit harder these days. I like FreeBSD, but as a rule, I like to have another type of OS on standbye in case something catastrophic happens to the FreeBSD install.
4 • 32-bit and 64-bit (by Mike Kluczan on 2015-06-29 00:58:49 GMT from North America)
I mess around with old computers that I`ve salvaged from the garbage or have pieced together from parts I`ve taken off of computers being thrown away and making another one without spending hardly any money and most of them, ( except for one ), are 32 bit only and are what you`d call ancient computers, except for the one at least 10 years old.
5 • Bits (by mcellius on 2015-06-29 01:05:30 GMT from North America)
I use 64-bit for my three desktop computers (all Ubuntu) but I also run an IPFire firewall and that is 32-bit. So I consider myself a 64-bit user and voted that way, but in truth I have a bit of a mix.
6 • Poll (by Travisyard on 2015-06-29 01:12:11 GMT from Planet Mars)
All of the computers I use regularity are 64-bit, but I have set up 32-bit recycled desktops for all 10 of my younger cousins with Puppy or Lubuntu (Puppy if Pentium 3 or Celeron, Lubuntu if Pentium 4).
7 • VectorLinux - 32 bit 64 bit and MidnightBSD (by tuxuser on 2015-06-29 01:25:18 GMT from North America)
I'm glad to see VectorLinux return to the front of the stage. I used VectorLinux as the main system in the past. I hope they have improved internationalization of distribution. What was a big default for non-English users. This is the reason why I'm going with SalixOS. What I love most of Vector it's users forum, dev are still very active and ready to come help all users.
Congratulations to this beautiful small team dedicated to VectorLinux! I will definitely download this new version and make the tests.
32 bit or 64bit
Hum for me, it's a mix. On my desktop is 64bit only and on my work PC it's 32bit SalixOs because the PC is Old. But with SalixOpenbox I can said this Old became like new so it's fast.
I tested a few time Midnightbsd in the past but I never have a real functional PC. Sometime it s hardware compatibility or server X problems. Conclusion, it seems that it is always the same.
8 • 32 bit (by Jai on 2015-06-29 01:26:50 GMT from Oceania)
I am using 32 bit Lubuntu for older laptops that I recondition for Nepali schools. Else 64 bit for home.
9 • Weekly Poll (by Chris on 2015-06-29 03:05:55 GMT from North America)
I voted for and use 32bit with PAE exclusively for the following reasons:
1. While I have both 32bit and 64bit boxes with varying amounts of memory, 32bit with PAE works on all of them; I don't have to think about it.
2. As I frequently share Linux live CDs/DVDs & USBs with family, friends, and associates I don't have to immediately intimidate the recipient by asking them a 'techie' question, being which type of system do they have. I can just hand them a disk or USB with a 32bit PAE live distro and I know 99% of the time it will just work for them (or me if I sit down to demo it for them), drivers being the only real issue. Again, no thinking necessary, and no extra anxiety for them.
3. Yes, overall 64bit builds are faster on appropriate hardware, minimally; but for my computer uses, I don't see any practical real-world results of using 64bit over 32bit. As long as I don't have a major computing need change where the minimal speed improvement would matter to me, I will stick with the 32bit w/PAE builds.
4. All apps that I currently use are still available in 32bit. Although, I expect this to change in time; and therefore, so too will I need to change. Plus, I don't need to worry about making sure I have a working 32bit shim on a 64bit system for older, but still useful, apps only available in 32bit.
5. There are still plenty of 32bit with PAE distro builds out there so I don't need to change yet. However, as time passes I expect this to become a problem and I will adjust when necessary. But with Slackware and Debian, I don't expect this to be an issue soon.
10 • 32-bit (by diego on 2015-06-29 03:14:40 GMT from South America)
32-bit in my notebook, it's a 2007 lenovo 3000N100, and 64- bit PC
11 • A mix of 32-bit and 64-bit (by sergei_d on 2015-06-29 04:07:47 GMT from Europe)
I can see almost no difference for my home tasks between the two. 32-bit Linux w/PAE handles >3GB RAM nicely, and runs both on dated and newer hardware. At work, I have a 64-bit Linux distro installed to do work. :)
12 • 32 bit only (by Drew on 2015-06-29 04:34:41 GMT from North America)
hardware is a bit old and just need something that works
13 • mix of 32 and 64 (by dogma on 2015-06-29 05:02:18 GMT from North America)
...because I have a 32-bit thinkpad that I still quite like.
14 • All 64bit (by hobbitland on 2015-06-29 05:02:50 GMT from Europe)
I have moved to all 64bit Linux on all my desktops, laptops & netbooks for some time. Don't have any 32bit only PC hardware for a long time. AND have been doing 64bit only for a long time but Intel was late to accept AMD64 extensions.
I still have one 32bit Debian 8.1 virtual machine in VirtualBox for testing. All the other VMs are 64bit only.
15 • mix of 32 and 64 (by Anton on 2015-06-29 05:21:28 GMT from Europe)
In my experience 64 bit is not working without problems on machines with less then 2GB memory. I have two of those in use.
16 • Mr. Riddell and Ubuntu (by cykodrone on 2015-06-29 05:58:53 GMT from North America)
Am I reading that right? Mr. Riddell removed himself? In exchange for taking down a 'fridge post'? That's the optics I'm getting, anybody else have any inside info on this?
17 • 32/64 bit (by zykoda on 2015-06-29 07:01:21 GMT from Europe)
As far as I remember I have used machines with 8,12,16,32,48,60,64 hardware bits (CPU) and maybe some graphics cards with 128 bits (maybe more). But now on cast off xf86 PCs I use 32 bit and on home builds 64 bit, just because I can....and seemingly without any great benefit to the majority of applications.
18 • A mix of 32-bit and 64-bit (by Marame on 2015-06-29 07:15:36 GMT from Europe)
I have 20+ computers and laptops and they are old, XP era. Only 1 computer is running 64 bit Rosa, a HP DC7800. Most have mainboards with socket LGA775 with 945 chipsets, 478 with 845 and AMD2's. They do not work with 64bit or have only 2 memory sockets limiting max memory to 2Gt. Laptops are using mainly Intel 915 chipsets.
So hardware is the main culprit. If someone has an old but working Windows XP computer i will work happily with 32bit Linux but not 64bit.
19 • 32 bit only (by Georgi on 2015-06-29 07:48:01 GMT from Europe)
I have one laptop and PC which are 32 bit only because my hardware is old. In practice I can run 64 bit because their CPU's are 64 bit but I'm from the "old school".
20 • 32 vs 64 bit# (by Pmulax on 2015-06-29 08:49:05 GMT from Europe)
I see many more users are in the same situation as me: I own an 8 Gb i3 desktop running 64 bit distros, AND an early series 32 bit only DualCore laptop. But Linux can revive most "ancient" PC's so 32 bit versions are essential for me. Ever seen a person's face then old XP era box they were about to trash ran splendidly on a 32 bit MATE with everything they needed? One person had to see me open the case to believe I hadn't switched the insides!
21 • All of the above (by JonnyTech on 2015-06-29 09:33:42 GMT from Europe)
I use whatever is appropriate. Desktops and laptops at 64bit if they are capable. Netbooks generally 32bit for better performance. Pi's and other hardware obviously need ARM. I love the fact that the Linux kernel can run on almost anything that I can throw at it. But the fact that I can give a new lease of life to ageing hardware is the real deal-maker for me. Imagine how much older technology would end up in landfills if it hadn't been rescued by Linux!
22 • 32 vs 64 bit (by John Wilson on 2015-06-29 09:41:35 GMT from Europe)
I use Debian Jessie in it's 64 bit incarnation - though I have also installed the i386 32 bit libraries... This is because I have installed steam... Steam games are almost always 32 bit "Windows" ports, therefore I have to use i386 libraries.
Also, as strange as it may seem... I have found that some pure 64 bit programs are not as stable as the 32 bit versions. This is down to the toolchain as the original 32 bit program is stable. This can be seen in the 64bit browser world - which have only started to produce stable(ish) versions of their 32 bit browsers - it is sometimes difficult to reprogram 32 bit apps into 64 bit versions anyway; an example being "Skype".
There will come a time when 32 bit dies back to niche areas. Lazy 32 bit commercial interests will keep 32 bit alive for some time yet.
23 • 32 bit or 64 bit (by Francesco on 2015-06-29 09:49:45 GMT from Europe)
64 bit on every pc that supports 64 bit, 32 bit within Virtualbox on pc without the right cpu features and on old pc's.
24 • 32, 64 bit misunderstandings (by Greg Zeng on 2015-06-29 10:03:16 GMT from Oceania)
Some comments here seem to not understand performance problems with 32 bit programs, including operating systems.
My oldest CPU is eight years old; Intel's Atom (2007 Asus EEE 701 PC) with a maximum of 4GB memory. It is a 64bit CPU, but can safely use 32 bit operating systems, because of its limited memory.
Using 32 bit operating systems (PAE, or not-PAE) with more than 4GB RAM creates a slower computer. This speed is very noticeable in real world use and in benchmarks. With non-PAE operating systems, memory above 4GB is wasted, unless turned into a RAM-disk, as far as I know (afaik).
Most (all?) 64bit operating systems afaik, can use 32bit operating systems (virtual box, etc), and 32bit applications in Linux and Windows, without noticeable speed penalties.
Using 64bit apps instead of 32bit apps on 64 bit CPUs seems to have minimal differences in speed and storage requirements. However some 32bit apps can be hard to convert to 64bit operation, so many app coders are reluctant to do this.
I found using 64bit apps on a 64bit operating system to be much faster, less troublesome. For example Mozilla Firefox is only publicly available in 64bit, only by independent coders, who then must market their work under a new trade name (Palemoon, Cyberfox, Waterfox).
25 • 32/64 bit (by Götz on 2015-06-29 10:33:54 GMT from Europe)
I run a 32 bit Linux distribution on a EeePC and on SSDs, which are prepared to work with most PC type computers.
26 • Opinion Poll -- 64 vs 32 bit (by solt87 on 2015-06-29 10:34:11 GMT from North America)
My OSes are all 64 bit. Naturally, I didn't count the relatively few 32-bit libraries, as they are (as far as I know) mostly dependencies of Steam, which Valve thought best to keep a 32-bit application on GNU/Linux. And anyway, libraries are libraries, not the OS itself. =P
27 • 32bit vs 64bit (by 32bit_lover on 2015-06-29 10:44:51 GMT from Europe)
32bit fanboy here :-)
machine: amd quadcore 4x3.2, 2 GB RAM
when I first tried a 64bit version (I believe it was epidemic, a debian derivate) I was surprised how slow and sluggish the system felt compared to the previous 32bit system (longer boottime, significant increased RAM usage).
since I`m kind of a minimalist (antiX running fluxbox) I just love to see RAM usage WELL below 100 MB idle!
When I read about idle-RAM-usages of 600-700 MB (especially KDE, bling bling on) it makes me shiver.
I know, RAM doesn` cost that many these days, but it`s a matter of minimalism: why wait for longer boot times to shovel more crap I don`t need into the RAM?
As long as my (64bit-)machines run far better with 32bit systems, I stay with them.
28 • 32bit x 64bit (by Gustavo on 2015-06-29 10:57:25 GMT from South America)
With 2GB of RAM I have two choices:
32 bit without swap and 64 using swap.
64bit systems use a lot more memory, so I think 32bit is the way to go.
An exception, of course, is installing on UEFI systems.
29 • 32 or 64... BOTH (by Kasprr on 2015-06-29 11:05:54 GMT from North America)
I refurbish older computers for the less fortunate, therefor at this point in time, 32 bit is still necessary, until such point in time that all the 32 bit computers have completely disappeared from the face of the earth 32 bit os will save them from the dump, polluting our precious earth. I myself currently use a mix, Some of the less fortunate use only older hardware IE/32 bit is necessary ! Linux is supposed to represent FREEDOM, Creating 64 bit only will be like putting chains on the less fortunate, Maybe a continuation of 32 bit for another 8-10 years may prove to encourage more & more linux users who will transition into 64 bit as hand me down hardware reach them... Increasing loyalty to the Linux Community... Do not follow Proprietary OS that force the less fortunate into Some sort of slavery, to keep only the fortunate up to the top of times !!
30 • 32-bit Makes Sense When... (by cpoakes on 2015-06-29 12:02:05 GMT from North America)
The recommendation to install 64-bit versions of Linux for optimal performance is because of the additional registers and instruction sets, not the word size. This can be the wrong choice for memory-limited systems. 64-bit programs use 150% as much RAM as 32-bit (not twice like you might expect). Still, if you are limited to 1GB RAM and move from a 32-bit to 64-bit version of the same OS, it is as if you reduce your 32-bit OS down to 666MB.
This leaves less room for filesystem buffering and uses swap more frequently. To avoid the performance hit, you can either install more RAM or maintain a 32-bit system. For my atom netbooks and thin-clients where a memory upgrade requires replacing the only SODIMM with one twice the size, the 32-bit option keeps the hardware serviceable without purchasing and discarding a lot of memory modules.
31 • 32 or 6-to-4... (by j coeli on 2015-06-29 12:11:01 GMT from North America)
Like #4 et alia, I like keeping older things going...and like 'em best when I can keep such going well. I also take donated or buy up puters from local Goodwill for around $20 and get them going sufficient for gifting to after-school orgs & senior centers. I know computers are cheaper than ever, but why insist on relegating something perfectly good to a landfill in Nigeria? And to those people with more money than sense who "need"
the fastest processor ever to do their emails and memos, "Really? How fast can you type?"
32 • 32bits in low end 64bits CPUs (by Carlos on 2015-06-29 12:56:35 GMT from Europe)
I use only 64 bits in my desktop and laptop.
But if I had a low end 64bits CPU, like an Atom, I would probably use 32 bits simply because the very limited CPU cache would handle more instructions in 32 bits and it could be slightly faster in some workloads.
It's a benchmark that I would like to see performed, here's a suggestion for Michael, at phoronix.
33 • Encryption (by Matty M on 2015-06-29 13:15:07 GMT from Europe)
In this day and age, encryption should be standard everywhere, and preferably without any "backdoors" If the authorities can use them, so can criminals
34 • 32-64 bit poll (by Ken Harbit on 2015-06-29 13:52:53 GMT from North America)
I use a mix at home and work. At work I'm always the last one to get a newer pc, it's always a used one. The last one I got was a 64 bitter, but I still have three 32 bitters in my office (I use Mint). At home, my main machine is a 64, I get older ones from friends and yard sales to fix up for folks that cant afford a new pc. Most of those are 32 bit. I put Linux on all and try to teach people how to use it. Again I use Linux Mint because it is easy for first timers. ... Please keep the 32s alive for a while longer...Especially Mint.
35 • 32 bit vs 64 (by albinard on 2015-06-29 14:45:32 GMT from North America)
One old 32-bit only computer (P4) still does fine with MX-14, all three others are 64-bit. But one of those has only 3GB of RAM and it seems to be distinctly sluggish with 64-bit OSs - so I run 32-bit on it and occasionally try out new distros in 64-bit to see if they are any perkier.
36 • poll (by Marc on 2015-06-29 15:25:00 GMT from Oceania)
I have a couple of older ironlake laptops running 64 bit, normally debian but i also love to try new distros too. I also have a few older 32 bit desktops running things like openmediavault for backups. and my fun is had on my rooted moto g 2014
37 • 32 bit (by a on 2015-06-29 15:41:12 GMT from Europe)
My desktop has a recent 64 bit CPU, but my laptop has a 32 bit Atom so I need a 32 bit OS for it! I’m currently looking for a new (fast) distro for it, and I already had to discard a couple of them because they went 64-bit-only.
38 • 32 or 64 (by Sean on 2015-06-29 16:15:08 GMT from North America)
I use the 64 bit versions on my 64 bit desktop and 64 bit laptop and use the 32 bit for older machines. The only thing that I noticed when using the 64 bit version is that I had to install 32 bit libraries for certain applications like Steam.
39 • 32 v 64 bit (by fatmac on 2015-06-29 16:26:08 GMT from Europe)
I still have 2x 32 bit systems (used very occasionally) so I voted 'both', although all my other systems are 64 bit.
(I occasionally refurbish an old computer, which usually means a 32 bit system.)
For my usage, I am happy with a 64bit system on my 1GB ram / 1.6GHz Atoms.
I only have 1 machine (an i3) with 4GB ram, 2 with 2GB ram, & the rest have just 1GB ram (all Atoms), so I could just use 32 bit PAE on all of them.
We need to keep 32 bit systems around for a while longer yet.
40 • x86 vs. x86_64 (by SilentSam on 2015-06-29 16:30:21 GMT from North America)
I still need distros that support non-PAE CPUs for installation... needless to say I run a mix.
41 • A mix of 32 & 64 bit OS (by a-Linux-user on 2015-06-29 16:58:01 GMT from North America)
I use a 32 bit live distro for compatibility purposes with older hardware.
42 • @37 fast 32-bit OS (by solt87 on 2015-06-29 16:59:51 GMT from Europe)
Maybe Lubuntu or Manjaro? Last time I checked, they both had 32-bit editions.
43 • 32 vs 64bit (by labbe5 on 2015-06-29 17:02:59 GMT from North America)
The 64-bit systems are forced on us. I can do without. I always choose 32bit over 64bit distros for my day-to-day computing needs. i don't see a difference in performance, up to now, but i don't use more than 4gigs of memory either.
I will have to change when only 64bits Linux distros will be available, but given the nature of Linux, there will always be developers catering to the needs of the 32bit system users.
44 • 32/64 Bit (by nightflier on 2015-06-29 17:12:35 GMT from North America)
I still have some 32-bit hardware running: my Smoothwall firewall and a Debian file server, both have been running 24/7 for many years. My oldest laptop is 32-bit only, but keeps on going.
45 • 32 or 64 bits? (by champted on 2015-06-29 17:21:06 GMT from North America)
I voted "mix of 32- and 64-bit". At work I use PCs of both bitnesses. At our house, we have two 64-bit boxes, four 32-bit boxes, and two RasPis. Those 32-bit boxes aren't going anywhere any time soon, so I will need 32-bit goodness for the forseeable future.
46 • 32 bit with no Systemd (by MoreGee on 2015-06-29 17:29:19 GMT from North America)
Last year I had to get rid of all my P2 machines because nothing but outdated Puppy would run on them. This year it looks like I will have to phase out my PIII and low power VIA C7s due to shared memory for video (systemd no like VESA buggy) and 1gb max RAM motherboards. I had to move my main desktop to a dual core 32 bit because the server required 64bit to run. Everything I have at the present time has under 2gb ram so 32 bit is a must for me.
47 • 32 bit vs 64 bit (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2015-06-29 18:04:09 GMT from South America)
I use 32-bit on an older 32-bit laptop. The laptop works perfectly well, in great shape, and I see no reason to stop using it. So I'll be mad if it the big distros stop supporting it.
Even on a newer but underpowered 64-bit laptop, I prefer to use 32-bit because 64-bit binaries are larger and slower and use more RAM.
48 • @42 fast 32 bit OS (by a on 2015-06-29 18:35:41 GMT from Europe)
Thanks, I’ll consider Manjaro-OpenRC if I can’t find anything else… SliTaz was promising (very fast in a VM and great dark themes), but it is stuck on an old 3.2.53 kernel and uses a suspicious, broken and insecure fake sudo by default. Salix has an even older kernel.
49 • Mix 32/64 (by Q on 2015-06-29 21:28:27 GMT from North America)
I still run x32 older distros, like Debian Lenny, because I have older PC--Windows 2000/XP generations.
50 • 32 & 64 bit (by M.Z. on 2015-06-29 22:02:29 GMT from Planet Mars)
Like others I've a a bit of cheap/free 32 bit hardware that needs 32 bit OSs. I've also got a 32 bit PAE main system & all 64 bit distros on my newer laptop.
@24 - Firefox misunderstanding
Actually Firefox has been 64 bit on Linux for several years now & it was a priority during the release of Firefox version 4 according to Wikipedia. Its really only Windows where Firefox is still 32-bit, & being as this is a Linux/BSD centric site that's not relevant to many Firefox users on the site. See here:
51 • The 64bit and 32bit legacy support... the hardware is the dependent factor. (by Theopoli on 2015-06-29 22:27:37 GMT from North America)
Working with computers since January 1, 1960, now is the time to ask what the end user would want from their digital devices.
First comes the hardware, next comes the firmware, and last comes the software.
Software consumes physical memory.
Operating systems coordinates the software and firmware is liason for the applications.
Now that many appliances have actual digital logic processors inside the product,
it should be wise that software programmers keep their code compact and efficient which also contributes to less bug infested software programs.
As a Technologist do not enjoy repairing my GrandMaMa's fully cyberlogic actualized high technology refrigerator. The refrigerator does have built in HD television with full function desktop computer and complete broadband access. With all the new digital electronic management- the milch, leche (milk) in the refrigerator now gets spoiled earlier in priority to "energy saver" mode and there is no "override". Just like most of the Airbus airliners the pilots have no recourse when its on board electronic sensors and controls goes rogue.
The new automobiles and trucks now have pre-programmed accessories that require periodic "factory adjustments" which is not free of cost after a purchase.
Would one trust that product.
Lets not re-invent the wheel.
If it continues to function well, then keep it unchanged.
If it malfunctions, then improve and replace it.
Like Issac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics",
the computer code should also be like my hardware support processes...
Compatible, Reliable, and Accessible.
Compatible is when everything hardware, firmware, and software is stable.
Reliable is when the whole product operates consistently without stoppage.
Accessible is when a product can be opened for observation, diagnostics, and repaired. (Usually proprietary products fail in this respect.)
The practical answer is yes, end users require 4bit, 8bit, 12bit, 16bit, 24bit, 32bit, 64bit, and whatever to support the digital processor.
How about a dynamic, adaptable, configurable, time base phase shifting Linux kernel to support Quantum Relativity computer processors (this is the faster than light speed Quantum Processor.)
Cannot do it with proprietary operating systems-- patent owners will sue.
Cannot do it with UNIX (too much stubborn legacy code.)
This leaves over 37,840 different Linux distributions, variants, editions, and versions. Linux OSes are ubiquitous, like rodents and insects. Adaptable, configurable, and becoming ever more User friendly.
Even found a version for HAM radio support, Marine Band GPS support, digital clockdrive support for expensive telescopes. Yup, there are even versions for tinkerers that want their HP calculator to be the replacement cellular phone.
Now that is secured communications as no advertisements and hackers can invade.
Come on folks, with overwhelming number of Linux distributions available to mainstream Users-- remember Computers 101, Linux like ancient UNIX does not require any storage device, nor installation to function well.
Have re-programmed a toy robot with embedded audio functions to play music instead of the awful noise of the "dinosaur".
Now if only the eggheads and folks in their ivory towers can help create self expressing vegetables that can tell atmospheric conditions, forecast tornadoes, and predict earthquakes-- perhaps than humanity may go back to being egotistical.
Please continue to support all the hardware, be difficult to slack off now.
Never know when that olde 32bit code one day used to save 64bit, 128bit, 256bit operating systems-- they are perfect multiples for those "out of sequence"
logic processors. Yes this is the long answer, do it all.
Of course if one has an affordable Quantum Processor computer, then it would naught matter at all. Remember who gave "Digital Spread Spectrum" to the world without ever profiting from the knowledge since A.D.1942.
Its not the size or fight in the dog that matters, but the gullibility factor of the dog!
Do not be sucker baited by technology.
That Secretary in the next office can still get her work done on an ancient manual typewriter, and go home earlier than the engineers and technology support personnel in this laboratory. Ah well-- may need to train my dogs to drive me home one day. Getting closer to that day as many new vehicles sold in the USA must conform to new standards of avoiding collision from all sides.
Would one trust a pet dog over a computer logic controlled robot taxi driver?
The answer is in the bible.
52 • 32 and 64 bit OS (by SlaxFan on 2015-06-29 22:56:59 GMT from North America)
I use 64 Linuxes on my laptop and desktop but I use 32 bit installed to flash drives and on CDs to help others who ask for computer help and to show them Linux. It seems there are a lot of people still using 32 bit computers (mostly hand me downs) and they are receptive to Linux. They don't want to pay for Windows and they want to wipe out the old and corrupt OSs they are stuck with.
53 • 32bit vs 64bit (by Terry R. on 2015-06-30 01:24:21 GMT from North America)
I use 32bit because it is compatible with VMWARE where as 64bit is not.
I use VMWARE for linux testing of distro's before installing them to see how they perform and what they are like.
64bit takes advantage of memory 4GB and higher and you can have large hard drive capacities in high terabytes and higher.
54 • 32 or 64 bit (by William Ward on 2015-06-30 01:48:28 GMT from North America)
I am using a 32 bit os on an older Dell Latitude D-610 which only supports 2 gigs of ram and no 3D graphics.
55 • 23bit vs 64bit (by Andy Figueroa on 2015-06-30 03:17:42 GMT from North America)
I use a mixture of both. I use 32bit on legacy systems, and 64bit on new systems if the hardware supports it. My personal primary desktop (with server functions) is 32bit, a Gentoo system originallly installed around 2006 and surviving several major hardware changes.
56 • Try a car analogy (by RollMeAway on 2015-06-30 04:51:12 GMT from North America)
I have 3 vehicles. A '95, '96 and '98.
They all run well. I take care of them. I fix things when they break.
They meet my needs, get me where I want to go, and still look good.
Just like all the 32 bit computers I own and use at work.
Now I could go out and buy a new car for thousands of dollars, but WHY?
I might get better gas mileage, but would I ever recoup the thousands spent? NO!
Just like all the 32 bit computers I use.
Now a days the mind set seems to be if it breaks, junk it, go buy a new and better one.
Must be nice to be so rich !
All my cars and computers do what I ask and need. I will continue to fix them when they break for as long as I can.
Thankfully, 32-bit linux is still plentiful. I can certainly live without the 64-bit only distros, although I really felt betrayed when sabayon dropped 32-bit, after I had contributed yearly, since it's introduction.
PC-BSD was the only bsd I needed, until it also dropped 32.
I have freeBSD installed and keep trying, but am not yet as comfortable.
GhostBSD, I have tried several releases, but cannot even install it in my multiboot environment.
So, tell me why I should fill up the trash and empty my pocket book?
57 • 51 - Theopoli: Absolutely Correct (by EarlyBird on 2015-06-30 06:45:53 GMT from North America)
Couldn't have said it better about technology. Seem to recall a lot of the same sentiment in a book I found at the library (does anyone here still go to libraries or even read "physical" books anymore?) called "Made to break"; a damning critique of society and unbridled capitalism. (I am not against capitalism, but certainly some of the resulting excesses)
Explains in detail how unreliable those fancy hi-tech appliances with bells, whistles, flashing displays, and internet-connectivity really are(n't)!
One of the things I like about products like RaspberryPi, Arduino, Beagleboard, etc. is they are more about utility and practical applications, rather than latest souped up gaming motherboard with water-cooled cpu and GPU that needs it's own separate electrical entrance at the house fusebox/breaker panel.
BTW - Further to last weeks and this weeks Pi reviews, Magpi magazine site moved from magpi.org to raspberrypi.org/magpi.
Anyway, all this to say, thanks to all of you still running 32bit linux on old hardware for helping keep the stuff out of landfills.
58 • FreeBSD on the Raspberry Pi (by Paraquat on 2015-06-30 08:42:33 GMT from Asia)
I'm a little late to the party, but just wanted to say that this was a particularly interesting issue of DWW. I was especially interested in the article about running FreeBSD on the Raspberry Pi.
Jesse, keep the articles on FreeBSD coming. And the Raspberry Pi with other alternative distros (Void Linux, for example). This is the kind of stuff I want to do more of myself when I have time.
59 • @51 and @57 (by far2fish on 2015-06-30 10:16:20 GMT from Europe)
So true, and sad it is often cheaper to buy new than repair.
I feel the "bells and whistles" also can be said software, where "social" and/or "cloud" features are added like it were a sign of quality.
60 • 32bit vs 64bit (by David on 2015-06-30 11:19:40 GMT from North America)
For desktops and laptops, 64bit all the way, but I also have a small fileserver made from a repurposed Citrix client box, which is 32bit x86 Debian, along with another of the same as an internet gateway.....again, 32bit Debian.
On my work Windows laptop, I run a small Debian 32bit virtual machine which acts as an NFS CIFS bridge, allowing me to map NFS mounts to a drive letter. 64bit would work, but for the job at hand, 32bit is more than sufficient. it's small (~300MB), lightweight (64MB), and boots in less than 3 seconds.
I hope 32bit sticks around for a while. :-)
61 • 32-bit (by Donald Blackmon on 2015-06-30 11:21:28 GMT from North America)
I use MX-14, it is quick, functional and solid. It does all I need, and very smooth.
62 • 32bit vs 64bit (by AJSB on 2015-06-30 11:43:57 GMT from Europe)
I use only 32bit OS, all games i play are 32bit and it's much easier and trouble free to setup a Linux 32bit installation.
63 • 32 vs 64 bit (by Igor on 2015-06-30 12:43:24 GMT from Europe)
I have some old machines still working and serving. All other OSs contemn that honorable hardware, but not Linuces. There are some distros specifically aimed at older hardware, and it is perfectly reasonable for these to be 32-bit based. Otherwise I'm with 64-bit. There is hardly any virtue in software further lagging behind hardware.
64 • 32 bits (by dbrion on 2015-06-30 12:55:11 GMT from Europe)
My 2G RAM net book cas use 64 bits: however, I choose almost always 32 bits. Advantages
a) if I want to repair a (0.5/1G) PC and give it to children , it will be an old one and I might be happy to tell them they have the same GNU linux than the one I usually ..use..
b) for my needs (cross compiling to arduini, Energia or other MCU cards; some R programming; learning C and Python ) it is more than sufficient.
The only drawback might be that, for heavy calculartions (octave, R), 64 bits are often faster.... .when writing scripts -if they work, they can work on bigger PC-, this is not relevant for me...
BTW I noticed that RPi's desktop (though I know RPi is very slow, and noticed it, too, when compiling) was fast enough for me...
65 • 32 vs 64 bit (by robert eisenzopf on 2015-06-30 13:26:05 GMT from Planet Mars)
While the latest & brightest experimenters(Which we desperately need for advancements) may use 64 Bit(and rightly so), the rest of us use what is available at the time of work activity. May I suggest that there is an amazing amount of "determinability" out there which fits no theory - but rather works on practicality and availability which would shock any purist! A follower and integrator of various Linux and BSD locally, I have been "forced" to abandon several distros which no longer publish 32bit(sometimes only initially) which I used to follow continually. Just so you know what happens out there on the "slow" end.
66 • 32 bit systems (by Bill on 2015-06-30 13:47:35 GMT from North America)
Many of us out here are tightwads! Sure, we'll upgrade to a 64-bit system when we can, but that doesn't mean we don't try to keep using the old XP 32-bit box. They are perfect sandbox machines, as long as we can get stuff to play with. An actual computer is better for trying a distribution than a virtual machine, after all. And many of us try to rehab a machine for a friend or to donate, replacing XP or Vista or worse with a viable Linux distribution and sending it forth to be used and not recycled. Yeah, we still use 32-bit boxes.
67 • 32 bit distro (by Cannon on 2015-06-30 14:36:19 GMT from North America)
I use older hardware, also prefer function over beauty.
I use MX-14 pae because it uses less resources.
You should review it, you mite like it.
68 • 64 bit, etc. (by Corbin Rune on 2015-06-30 15:44:34 GMT from North America)
As far as my own machines, I go 64-bit (with multilib options for when 32-bit compatibility is needed.) Of course, I also tend to upgrade gear every 2-3 years, and recycle the old box to someone what needs an upgrade.
In regards to #33: I agree that encryption is an absolute MUST. I also find it ironic that the same governmental stooges who want backdoors for OUR encryption schemes still want their own to remain unassailable.
As for Vector (and, honestly, Slackware in general): I've wanted to try out Slackware for a while. My question is; are there any (current) Slack-based pentest options? Closest thing I've run into was Wifislax, which is both an older iso, and 32-bit.
69 • Backdoor_makes_unauthorized_user_a_criminal (by k on 2015-06-30 16:11:46 GMT from Planet Mars)
@ Matty M (comment #33), you wrote: ""backdoors" If the authorities can use them, so can criminals". Whether a user is an "authority" or otherwise, the unauthorized use of a computer backdoor is explicitly illegal, a crime, and the unauthorized user of a "backdoor" is a criminal. Most -- Iceland represents a rare exception -- contemporary internet and computing "norms" seem to accept backdoor violation of intellectual freedom and privacy as morally acceptable, while the intellectual privacy (anonymity), freedom and security afforded by TOR network and Tails are associated with suspect (criminal) activity, investigated (listed) and censored as such in many "democracies", including the USA. Otherwise, agreed, Tails provides the encryption, privacy and security you suggested, and that should be much more prevalent, supported and maintained.
70 • 32 bit vs 64bit (by Toran Korshnah on 2015-06-30 17:28:58 GMT from Europe)
I use Debian 8 64-bit and have used 64-bit since I use 64-bit compatible computers. I see no reason to still use 32 bit. However, one exception. Total idiotic from Google to provide 32 bit Google Earth, while ignoring 64 bit Google earth. Same thing to Adobe with their halted support to flash Here Google saves the day. This said, I can not always follow the decisions of software makers. They do noy always think in a logic fashion, it looks.
71 • 32 vs 64 bit OS (by bill-j on 2015-06-30 20:42:54 GMT from North America)
I will run 64 bit if that is available. One of my favorite systems is antiX, which frequently has appeared only in 32 bit mode. I must say that from my desktop perspective I can see little difference in the efficiency with which my 32 and 64 bit systems work.
72 • 32-bit vs 64-bit (by Thomas on 2015-06-30 20:47:31 GMT from Europe)
I hope for long 32-bit support for all common distribution. It's in my notebook's cpu: an Intel Core Duo T2250 with 2x 1,73GHz. The CPU got SSE3 support, 2MB Cache, but just 32bit and is not capable of 64bit.
The cpu itself is quite fast for usual office work and graphics work. blender3d rendering also good working.
Many people often think 32 bit cpus are that old they dont even have SSE2... but that's only true for most of the AMD ones but not for these mobile Intel CPUs.
Currently I am fluently running Fedora 20 Compiz Mate Spin 32 Bit (Linux 3.11) on this machine with only free apps & drivers (e.g. nouveau)... but I am looking for an OS with newer Kernel +Compiz+Mate.
73 • MidnightBSD not needed anymore? (by Andrew on 2015-06-30 21:44:07 GMT from Europe)
I'm sorry to say it, but I sometimes feel that certain projects don't make much sense to begin with. The BSD community is quite small and further fragmentation helps no-one. Especially, when we already have GhostBSD and PC-BSD. Those two are more than enough to fill the niche.
There is a similar problem with Ubuntu-based Linux distributions. There are cases when it would be more profitable for the community if project developers simply produced metapackages with desktop environment add-ons or specialized metapackages for software cathegories (music, video, gaming, etc.). Fedora employs cathegories and Manjaro even offers choice of specific packages within cathegories during installation and initial configuration.
74 • 32 or 64 bit system which do you use? (by John Fellin on 2015-07-01 00:11:44 GMT from North America)
I use a 32 bit distro. Why? I just think it is better! Why?
To answer the question is 32 bit better than 64 bit one has to include the hardware to which it is married. As an example: "One can not comment on a car's performance without first having physically driven it around the track a few times".
Please note: The following comments do not apply to "The Gaming Experience". I am not a gamer nor do I drive a Formula 500. I drive an ordinary car back and forth to work and I use my computers within the confines of everyday family life.
Having installed and brutally tested over 500 Linux flavors since the mid 2000's I have found the 32 bit distros to be the most reliable on the older hardware. Testing on my 10 personal towers and laptops ranging from early 90's to present the older machines just carry the software without any worries. The 64 bit distros were amazingly stunning works of art masterful in performing the most difficult of tasks on the newer hardware but easily bogged down eventually under high resource usage. In the end I have found that 32 bit distros in the 700mb range employed into the older hardware to be the best under the most difficult of situations for the average everyday user.
P.S. After so many years I have now down sized to using 2 laptops and 2 towers.
75 • The Way-Back Machine (by Kevin myers on 2015-07-01 18:10:25 GMT from North America)
I've remember and used the 8, 16, 32, and,64 bit possessors. What I remember is the absolute disaster it tended to be to move from one platform to another. Once the new computer was purchased a new OS was needed, drivers where needed (most not even written yet), programs rewritten, and of course support was non existent.
The transition from 32bit to 64bit been, in my opinion, has been nearly seamless. Each person is able move to to the newer platform at the rate the is good for them, and with, if all goes well, no downtime. Also older machines are still supported with the hopefully extending their usefulness for many years.
Lastly, it is always good to have options.
76 • 32-bit vs 64-bit (by porkpiehat on 2015-07-01 18:50:22 GMT from Europe)
Once there was a very snappy Debian based distro called Crunchbang. From the beginning of this this year it became defunct. Actually it had been defunct since its last release, which was 2013. Now, you can try out Crunchbang lookalike based on Debain 8.1.
77 • 32-bit vs. 64-bit (by David on 2015-07-01 19:22:39 GMT from North America)
I use both. The 32-bit is used on a 1GB, single-CPU system running the Squid proxy server.
78 • why 32 bit (by BeerBBQman on 2015-07-01 19:54:04 GMT from North America)
I like to use an old Acer laptop to read & surf in my recliner (I'm an old fart). I had occasional issues with Kubuntu, read about LXLE, tried it & love it.
My other computers are 64 bit with SSD and windows (puke), seldom use them.
79 • Bittedness (by zykoda on 2015-07-01 20:49:25 GMT from Europe)
I remember 4,8,12,16,24,32,48, 60, 64,128 bittedness and decade counters. No doubt there are even more odd assemblages with other integer bases. I currently use 32 and 64 bit CPUs with various video card configurations. I not sure what nvidia cuda does for each, but there is some mighty useful power there.
80 • @68, Corbin Rune: Slack-based OSes (by Roland on 2015-07-02 02:54:59 GMT from North America)
I use salixos.org, it's slack with a liveCD and a choice of GUIs. I use xfce x64 and am happy with it. Kernel 188.8.131.52. Has anyone tried Vector in comparison? Vector7.1 is not a liveCD so I have to dig out a spare disk to install it. But it's Kernel 3.18.16 & the new xfce 4.12, apparently. Both have gslapt, Salix also has Sourcery for automated handling of source packages, big repository. Slack is IMHO overdue for a refresh, Mr. Volkerding.
81 • 32/64 (by Paul on 2015-07-02 05:13:29 GMT from Oceania)
I use a mixture of 32 and 64 bit systems.
Only two of my computers have 64 bit capability.
So clearly I must use both styles.
Simple, logical and practical?
I haven't found any real benefit from 64 bit for the things I do.
Ipso Fatso, my case rests.
82 • OpenSuse 42 (by fartfollowers on 2015-07-02 06:29:18 GMT from Oceania)
Anybody got any ideas about what OpenSuse has planned for their major "42" release later this year?"
* Speedy boot time?
* Easy installer?
* Ironclad security?
* Techy filesystem?
* Container technology?
Or, maybe, in the tradition of most distros - a new icon design, wallpaper, and flashy DE?
83 • @76 - Other Crunchbang derivatives (by Uncle Slacky on 2015-07-02 07:23:37 GMT from Europe)
There's also Crunchbang++: https://crunchbangplusplus.org/
...and unlike Monara, they're not hosted on the notorious Sourceforge...
84 • wired memory (by subg on 2015-07-02 22:17:51 GMT from North America)
Jessie, what do you mean by "wired" memory in your reviews?
85 • Wired memory (by Jesse on 2015-07-02 22:51:16 GMT from North America)
@84 Wired memory is a term in FreeBSD which means memory that cannot be swapped out. It usually includes the kernel and modules.
86 • @80 Slackware derivatives (by a on 2015-07-02 23:08:06 GMT from Europe)
I have Vector Linux in a VM at the moment, but didn’t know it was based on Slackware. It is not told on their front page. I hope it isn’t as outdated as the other Slackware-based distros I tried (including Slackware itself). They all had very old kernels.
87 • VL kernel (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-07-03 05:37:04 GMT from North America)
Wasn't kernel 3.12.16 dated roughly 2014/APR? Is that so much older than your hardware that it isn't functional?
88 • 32vs64 bit poll (by u on 2015-07-03 08:20:58 GMT from Europe)
I use 32bit cuz I'm still using a Samsung N130 netbook as my main computer...
((...out of lack of money; ...but also cuz I kinda fell in love with that little robust 'thingy'; ........and -kind of as a side-effect- it makes me having to use light software, optimize it for speed, and watch the resources in general..~>which I kinda like, I guess :P <3 ((~even though it can be a pita at times ^_^ :-))
cheers and <3 for this distrowatch-site <3
89 • @73 METAPACKAGES ... (by Greg Zeng on 2015-07-03 10:40:33 GMT from Oceania)
Ubuntu has many metapackages in its repositories. Some specialized distros use these from Synaptic Package Manager. Trouble starts when I try to remove an unwanted app, only to find it removes either the whole metapackage, or other more serious effects.
I agree with your idea, that too many distros (e.g. BSD) can dilute the interest and talent of contributors. I found it too difficult to modify the Linux distro creators. The upstream packagers make shortcomings, mistakes & oversights which some (not all) distro creators notice. For example, imposing BRAILLE, etc into so many ordinary distros.
90 • Mint 17.2 (by G Savage on 2015-07-03 14:07:19 GMT from Planet Mars)
Just upgraded. Couldn’t be happier. Thank you Clem and team.
Reading the 1st post above, reminded me of the first distro I tried to master, Slackware. I stank at it. I was about to give up on Linux when I discovered Mepis, which for me was a walk in the park by comparison. Ulimately it became MX14, leaving antiX as its' final living legacy.
These days I see Peppermint continuing to improve and bridge the gap between desktop hardware, and the steady move to mobility.
91 • AntiXV (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-07-03 19:59:25 GMT from North America)
Anticapitalista has certainly raised the bar. (InMyHumbleOpinion, of course.) His ISO boot menu may raise dental premiums for many lazy devs, as they grind their teeth. I believe I also detected inklings of better GUIs for ALSA ... oh my. Many wonderful days of discovery ahead.
92 • 32-64 bit OS use (by Mike Hick on 2015-07-03 20:37:50 GMT from Europe)
Hi there, I run the 32bit Linux Mint on an Asus EeePC X101CH, which only supports a 32bit OS (I think) and then I run the 64bit version of Linux Mint on my brand new spanking i7-4790K, both using the XFCE DE. Surprisingly the little Asus runs like a dream, it's really responsive.
93 • @ 83 • Other Crunchbang derivatives - Uncle Slacky (by porkpiehat on 2015-07-04 06:36:26 GMT from Europe)
>...and unlike Monara, they're not hosted on the notorious Sourceforge...<
Where do you think other distros mentioned in Distrowatch are hosted, Uncle Slacky? Not at "notorious" Sourceforge?
Monara is the only Live DVD of any Crunchbang "derivatives" available today. And, it is not a derivative, but a lookalike, that is, not derived from Crunchbang. The last Crunchbang release was in 2013, and this is mid 2015.
94 • @93 Other Crunchbang derivatives - (by mandog on 2015-07-04 11:34:58 GMT from South America)
So what is this CrunchBang Plus Plus. CrunchBang++ is an open source and completely free of cost computer operating system, designed as a continuation of the CrunchBang Linux distribution, based on newer Debian 8 "Jessie" packages and built around the minimal and lightweight Openbox window manager. CrunchBang++ is also known as CBPP or #!++ or CrunchBang Plus Plus.
95 • @91 Antix (by a on 2015-07-04 11:52:34 GMT from Europe)
Antix doesn’t even let you choose a keymap in the boot menu… (Not the only distro to do that, unfortunately.)
96 • the bitness 32/64 (by gnomic on 2015-07-04 14:38:14 GMT from Oceania)
Round here 32-bit machines capable of useful work still exist as they may well do for another decade or so. It would be a sad day if Linux support ended any time soon, and remove a unique selling point for Linux.
97 • 32-vs-64-bit hardware (by Kragle on 2015-07-04 17:42:16 GMT from North America)
When it becomes more expensive to supply power and/or adapters to keep 32-bit hardware running than to sell it to recyclers and replace it with newer hardware (and harder than learning to use something different), continued dalliance with the "old" will lose its appeal. Except for use cases that avoid malware through low-spec, of course.
Distro communities sometimes welcome contributions from hardware vendors with product-promotion agendas ...
98 • 94 • Other Crunchbang derivatives - by mandog (by Spacexw on 2015-07-04 20:37:55 GMT from Europe)
What is this Monara?
Monara is a light and fast operating system based on Debian 8.1 base, built on the Openbox window manager with #! tweaks.
CrunchBang released its last stable distro in May 2013.
This Crunchbang-Monara is offered to users as a continuation of Crunchbang.
It is a Live DVD, 32 bit & 64 bit.
Debian 8 would be supported by the Debian LTS Team till April/May 2020, so all you have to do is periodically update and upgrade Monara using Apt-get.
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade.
You don't have to re-install it until the release of next Debian 9!
99 • 32 vs 64 (by imnotrich on 2015-07-05 05:11:12 GMT from North America)
Problems I have with 64 bit Windows (and Mint) is that Firefox and Chrome both do not have stable 64 bit versions yet. Constantly hanging/stalling/locking up. Of course the browsers will blame the plug ins, and the plug ins will blame the browsers. Yawn.
It's not a lack of RAM, I have 16gb.
Another gripe with 64 bit? Those old Windows games such as Return of Arcade will not install. Sure, I've used virtual box and dosbox for years but with 64 bit machines becoming more common, my choices are wipe the OS and install 32 bit or simply build a new (old) machine that will run DOS and Windows 98 just for gaming purposes. Sometimes newer is not better. Like those low flow toilets.
100 • 99 • 32 vs 64 OS/apps (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-07-05 12:24:20 GMT from North America)
One complaint could be that (lazy?) purveyors of 64-bit OSs/hardware rarely provided a 32-bit mode/VM/jail to smooth/cushion transition, but surely multi-boot helps? (DOS wasn't really a multi-processing OS - it was much more focused...)
(The first "low-flow" commodes didn't provide for those max-flow moments when beer didn't dissolve all the pizza, but better designs eventually emerged in the competition, right? ;-)
101 • @93 - Sourceforge controversies (by Uncle Slacky on 2015-07-05 18:50:29 GMT from Europe)
I'm referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SourceForge#Project_hijackings
Can anyone tell me what are the differences between Monara and CB++?
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|• Issue 790 (2018-11-19): NetBSD 8.0, Bash tips and short-cuts, Fedora's networking benchmarked with FreeBSD, Ubuntu 18.04 to get ten years of support|
|• Issue 789 (2018-11-12): Fedora 29 Workstation and Silverblue, Haiku recovering from server outage, Fedora turns 15, Debian publishes updated media|
|• Issue 788 (2018-11-05): Clu Linux Live 6.0, examining RAM consumpion, finding support for older CPUs, more Steam support for running Windows games on Linux, update from Solus team|
|• Issue 787 (2018-10-29): Lubuntu 18.10, limiting application access to specific users, Haiku hardware compatibility list, IBM purchasing Red Hat|
|• Issue 786 (2018-10-22): elementary OS 5.0, why init keeps running, DragonFly BSD enables virtual machine memory resizing, KDE neon plans to drop older base|
|• Issue 785 (2018-10-15): Reborn OS 2018.09, Nitrux 1.0.15, swapping hard drives between computers, feren OS tries KDE spin, power savings coming to Linux|
|• Full list of all issues|
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Taprobane GNU/Linux was a distribution based on Debian GNU/Linux. It was a live CD with a primary focus of bringing convenience to the user. The word "Taprobane" represents an ancient name for Sri Lanka, a beautiful Indian Ocean island also known as Ceylon.