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1 • ARM (by Rel on 2015-05-18 03:08:35 GMT from North America)
Firs time being first!
Cheers to the Centos crew for an ARM port. This is huge and I wanted to congratulate them here.
rel
2 • Tails already has their own torrent (by rja on 2015-05-18 04:30:21 GMT from North America)
Assuming that this link will post, here is the one provided by Tails:
https://tails.boum.org/torrents/files/tails-i386-1.4.torrent
3 • GPL misconceptions (by M.Z. on 2015-05-18 06:58:20 GMT from Planet Mars)
I've tried to do enough reading that I didn't have those sorts of GPL misconceptions, but I ran into a big one a while back from a friend of mine. He seemed to think that all of the BSDs were licensed under the GPL because they were free/open software and were a lot like Linux. I told him about how the BSD license was different from the GPL & more permissive, which allowed Mac to turn BSD licensed code into their proprietary OS X. Oddly enough he was the guy who not only helped me get into computers in the first place, but also the guy who first introduced me to the FreeBSD based firewall distro pfSense. He's a real 'under the hood' sort of guy who plays with an awful lot of computer stuff & blows me out of the water in most every way when it comes to hands on experience with computers, but up till then he never bothered to learn the differences between BSD & Linux. He just picked up what he found useful & ran with it. I guess some open source users just want to dig in & get things going without getting bogged down in the details. I'm more interested the philosophical thinking behind the GPL & the whole free/open source thing so I dug into those bits of Wikipedia more. Its nice that open source has so much appeal both philosophically & practically.
4 • DW_weekly_brings_the_Finns_and_Francophones_freedom_and_fun_back (by k on 2015-05-18 09:56:47 GMT from Europe)
Excellent issue, very infomative and interesting: plus de liberté, égalité, et fraternité for our Francophone sibs, and the comment (#3) about licensing and the philosophy (reality) behind free/open source, thank you MZ. And thank you Linus for rolling it out for the rest of us. By the way, Lakka (cloudberry) also to be enjoyed from Linus's original Northern woods, num-num. :) Still, not sure about jumping into Linux From Scratch's sandbox, bit too fine, gets stuck to everything.
5 • Tails torrent (by Jesse on 2015-05-18 10:08:32 GMT from North America)
@2: The torrent you linked to is the same one we provide here. I posted a copy of their torrent file because a lot of people were interested in finding a torrent for tails.
6 • Read GPL v2 (by massysett on 2015-05-18 10:24:17 GMT from North America)
If you've never read the GPL, start with version 2. It's much more readable than version 3.
7 • Foresight (by César on 2015-05-18 10:38:04 GMT from South America)
It's a sad new the end of Foresight, once upon a time i install this distro in my Jurassic PC, and i liked the software management, but i have problem with my "prehistoric" Nvidia graphic card and the minimal information about the distro on the web, it's very hard maintain a stable system in this way.
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
8 • Goal of the GNU GPL: preventing man-in-the-middle attacks (by Magic Banana on 2015-05-18 12:44:30 GMT from Planet Mars)
I liked the clarifications on the GNU GPL. However, it would have been useful to start with the problem the copyleft (and its implementation in the GPL) tries to solve: preventing man-in-the-middle attacks, where someone receiving the software can strip out the freedoms she was granted before redistributing it.
E.g., Apple redistributes (a sightly modified version of) FreeBSD's code under a proprietary license. Even if most of the work comes from FreeBSD, Apple's users are denied the essential freedoms defining "free software". They did not receive them. They received a backdoor for the NSA in compensation.
9 • nethserver (by greg on 2015-05-18 13:16:26 GMT from Europe)
my experience was very similar. i think they need to brush it up just a tad bit and it will be perfect. clean interface makes it easy for newbie to learn. and i also think they need to slowly move to 7.0..
10 • Semantic note (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-05-18 13:27:04 GMT from North America)
"Part of the problem, I believe, is in the label 'free software"."
Specifically, the deliberate use of the ambiguous word 'free'? Try 'freed' instead. As in 'Liberated'.
The ambiguous phrasing may have been a deliberate ploy for interest at the expense of clarity.
11 • ARM (by Semiarticulate on 2015-05-18 13:34:32 GMT from North America)
Nice to see another ARM port. It's interesting to see an architecture that was spawned in the early 80's finally come to the forefront. And it's mind-blowing to see technology shrink at the rate it is. I have an IBM Model M keyboard that weighs much more than my Raspberry Pi setup. Interesting times indeed.
12 • GPL (by john mitchell on 2015-05-18 14:17:01 GMT from North America)
I have found this page helpful when trying to sort out the different licenses:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html
13 • Torrent Corrner and Tails torrent (by rja on 2015-05-18 15:18:58 GMT from North America)
I was pointing out that Tails already has a host for its torrents.
From the Torrent Corner:
"When you message us, please place the word "Torrent" in the subject line, make sure to include a link to the ISO file you want us to seed and please make sure the project you are recommending does not already host its own torrents. We want to primarily help distributions and users who do not already have a torrent option."
When the next version of Tails is released, the download page for Tails will be updated with the correct torrent.
If you are trying to help readers find the torrent for Tails, then IMHO, adding a link to the Tails download page to your Released Last Week section should suffice.
14 • different licenses (by Tim Dowd on 2015-05-18 15:22:56 GMT from North America)
@3
I have to sympathize with your friend a little bit. I think knowing the difference between the licenses is important when people are buying new hardware because it lets them purchase hardware that is as compatible with freedom as possible.
Where I think the difference becomes less important is when you've got old hardware. There's an ethical imperative with this as well, because our disposal of e-waste is literally poisoning hundreds of thousands of people. Thus whether something is a BSD license or a GPL license or even a proprietary binary blob seems less important to me if it's the only option that keeps the device out of the landfill.
15 • GPL (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-05-18 16:30:30 GMT from North America)
"The one exception is in the case where binaries are distributed without the corresponding complete source code."
Except … this "one exception" is the most common practice.
To save bandwidth, tool-chains and source-code are commonly left out.
It's rare to get source for tool-chains involved. Even rarer is full commenting for code.
So what remains is that, to guarantee cost recovery, all development costs should be charged for the first copy distributed. (Along with transmission/distribution costs, of course)
How will this produce a robust market platform?
16 • GTK_QT_and_the_Wayland_wave_from Hawaii (by k on 2015-05-19 04:39:37 GMT from North America)
Hey Jesse. Please, I'm begging the question on this Arch user's boggled mind: What apps based on the different tool kits will REALLY WORK (stably and speedily) on different desktops run on Arch (X), and relating to the much written about topic of licensing, does MIT's license of Wayland present a further complication?? Wikipedia has an excellent article on Wayland at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol). I would love to see a comparison table of stability and speed of different GTK vs QT apps on different desktops officially supported and unofficially supported by Arch. It's chaos don't you know. That reminds of Kaos, you recently wrote (issue 560) of it: "I suspect the distribution will appeal to fans of the Arch Linux philosophy who would like to have a way to get their desktop operating system up and running quickly", but where's that leave Wayland and Hawaii, on the wayside?
17 • What stability/speed issue? (by M.Z. on 2015-05-19 08:02:12 GMT from Planet Mars)
@16
I run Qt apps on Cinnamon and Gtk apps on KDE all the time & haven't ever noticed any stability or speed issues. I think the only real difference is that things load different sets of libraries depending on if they use Qt or Gtk & the only real penalty is a bit more memory & perhaps bad looks if something is heavily Gtk & proper themes aren't in KDE. I find Qt apps always look good regardless of DE or even OS though, at least they seem good on Windows on the rare occasion I use them there. I could easily be wrong but that's how I thought it worked & like I said the only real difference I've noticed is the Qt apps always seem to look fairly good.
As for the license of Wayland, well its intended to replace X.Org, which is released under the same MIT license. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.Org_Server
Also Wikipedia says that MIT & GPL are compatible & links in reference #2 to a statement from the Free Software Foundation that also says they are compatible. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License
It's just a stripped down & simplified product built by the same folks working on X & under the same license from what I've heard. I don't see how that could chance anything legally, though there are a number of other likely benefits to Wayland once it's starts to really get improved & shipped.
18 • top-turns_off_Arch_wave (by k on 2015-05-19 09:34:19 GMT from Europe)
Dear MZ, MUCH thanks for sharing your experience (comment #17) with QT and GTK apps on Cinnamon and KDE, respectively. Trying to keep to Arch's recommended (official) repos, and using carefully curated and culled mirrors for pacman, I have tested both the desktops you specified, and four others, and managed to have key apps: firewall (ufw), browser (Firefox) and email client (Claws) with Gnome desktop, and browser (Qupzilla) and email client (Trojita) with LXQT only. I suppose that is how I got the probably erroneous impression that certain tool kits run more stably and speedily with certain dekstops. The Gnome desktop seemed "useable enough" until a Firefox upgrade dropped a mirrors pacnew file on us and, holy moly, that ended the "bleeding edge" and all. :) How do those Tails developers do it(?), everything -- key, office and graphics apps -- humming along, stable and smooth as silk, off a uSD. Okay, we can't have internet radio with Tails, but there is humming to oneself. :)
19 • X vs Wayland (by Kragle on 2015-05-19 10:36:17 GMT from North America)
While the MIT license for Wayland may be 'compatible' with the GPL license X.org uses, it is also 'permissive', the difference being that it incorporates the possibility of a proprietary fork. This may attract wider support - for a time.
20 • NethServer (by David Harper on 2015-05-19 12:24:27 GMT from Oceania)
NethServer is a fork of SME Server, which has been having development and governance issues recently. Regarding the comparison to Zentyal, NethServer inherits CentOS' long release cycles, whereas the open source "development" edition of Zentyal generally uses the latest Ubuntu release, regardless of LTS status, requiring upgrades every six months.
21 • @7 • Foresight (by G.Savage on 2015-05-19 17:00:25 GMT from North America)
+1
I hope those folks go on to help out on other Linux/BSD projects; both PC and mobile.
22 • Foresight & lack therof (by Kragle on 2015-05-19 18:55:28 GMT from North America)
The Foresight Linux "Council" didn't accurately foresee their websites' life expectancy - foresight.org was gone well before the predicted "end of May". Some in the community were unpleasantly surprised; a few are scrambling to salvage valued codebase. Application of Conary package management to CentOS (and .deb packages) was in development. JIRA and Confluence were dear to some.
gmane.org still shows related mailing-lists.
23 • bleeding edge issues (by M.Z. on 2015-05-19 19:08:34 GMT from Planet Mars)
@18
Yeah those do seem like they are basically a bleeding edge issues that require more testing to iron out than you get in a always fresh to a fault distro like Arch. I mostly run PCLinuxOS & Mint & notice very few issues, but PCLOS is a more conservative sort of rolling distro & Mint takes a fairly conservative point release approach under the moniker 'ship when its ready'. The only significant issue I've seen was in the release notes of Mint 17.1 Cinnamon, which basically said to upgrade the KDE libraries if you run into trouble. I never actually experienced the issues so I never ran the command, though I still use a fair amount of KDE apps on Cinnamon.
As for Tails, well that's just good old Debian stable as a base, which takes a good long time to shore everything up between releases & is an excellent base if you ever get burned out on the bleeding edge. Of course you could also moderate your approach by rolling more gently with PCLOS or just rolling the latest & greatest Cinnamon/MATE DE with Mint Debian. Linux offers an awesome amount of choice & I can certainly see the appeal of something as fresh & new as Arch, but I've felt that PCLOS was always fresh enough for me & I think Mint is a nice reliable work horse that gets things done. I guess if you want something as fresh as Arch you've got to live with the consequence of choice & deal with those occasional hiccups or really dig through info to figure out how best to admin your systems. I'd like to run Arch at some point just to try it & experience the bleeding edge, but I think I still prefer simplicity & stability for most of of systems. It all goes back to that eternal question, is it better to have newer stuff or not have to worry too much about your next upgrade.
24 • Nerhserver (by More Gee on 2015-05-20 03:53:23 GMT from North America)
I've had really good luck with Superb Mini Server, running non stop for about 2 years. Rarely have I had to use the command line. I need to figure out how to get Wordpress running.
25 • instability (by linuxista on 2015-05-20 15:15:52 GMT from North America)
@18 @23 "The Gnome desktop seemed "useable enough" until a Firefox upgrade dropped a mirrors pacnew file on us and, holy moly, that ended the "bleeding edge" and all."
What does this even mean? It has nothing to do with Gnome or Firefox, and if it means a pacnew file for repo mirrors, then this is totally normal and has nothing to do with breakage, fresh to a fault or bleeding edge or anything else.
26 • 25•• 23•18 interpretations (by Kragle on 2015-05-20 16:37:03 GMT from North America)
Does what 'k' wrote mean that 'k' and Arch were not a suitable pairing?
On-The-Other-Hand, if one app's 'upgrade' results in a domino-effect catastrophe, is that an instance of 'dependency-hell'?
27 • RE: 8-14, and of course, my blurb. (by Landor on 2015-05-20 20:25:22 GMT from North America)
#8
When I read someone spouting off about the GPL (and/or RMS) being this kind of ogre that's forcing them to comply with something "when they just want their computers to work", I just shake my head. People forget the one simple thing you pointed straight out and explained perfectly, the license is there in an attempt to ensure that the software remains available.
#14
While I understand the plight of the landfill, and toxicity is a terrible thing, I don't think we can ever marginalize the license in that way. In fact, a far better scenario would be to champion the loosening up of the restrictions on the hardware through a better license so there's not only solutions for these people, but ones that are up to date and worked on by a community of millions that do care as well.
-----
I'm still running a Libre build to this day. I intend to continue as well. The GPL can only really mean something if it means something to people. Freedoms, whatever they may be to you, have to matter enough. If they don't matter enough then why would anyone agree they're needed?
A lot of you may not care enough to miss out on some functionality, and that's your choice. I care, and if there's no viable workaround then so be it, it matters enough.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
28 • Arch Qt & Gtk (by M.Z. on 2015-05-20 20:38:00 GMT from Planet Mars)
@25 & 26
As I said above I'm not an Arch user, so I really don't understand all of the details. If it helps I think I'm starting to remember something from some podcast awhile back that basically said what k reported about Arch, which is to say that Qt apps on Gtk desktops or vice versa create instability. I believe it was Linux Action Show or something like that & one host was saying he really liked Arch & all the freshness & bleeding edge nature, but mixing different app types was an issue in a way not found on any of the more stable distros. I could be entirely wrong or it may just be apps developed for specific DEs like Dolphin/Nautilus filemanagers, but it jives with something I thought I heard.
29 • @26 @28 instability (by linuxista on 2015-05-21 02:38:15 GMT from North America)
>Does what 'k' wrote mean that 'k' and Arch were not a suitable pairing?
It evidences a lack of interest in trying to learn the simplest thing about Arch. Any type of basic troubleshooting is necessary for any distro, and we are used to the ones we develop some skill in and have less tolerance for distros that do things a different way.
>On-The-Other-Hand, if one app's 'upgrade' results in a domino-effect catastrophe, is that an instance of 'dependency-hell'?
There is nothing that he said that even evidences anything other than a normal, successful upgrade, let alone a catastrophe or hell.
>Linux Action Show or something like that & one host was saying he really liked Arch & all the freshness & bleeding edge nature, but mixing different app types was an issue in a way not found on any of the more stable distros.
I can't think of any theoretical basis for why Gtk and Qt apps would behave any differently on Arch than any other system. I use some Qt apps on my Arch Gnome desktop and have never had any issue. Recently on LAS the host, Chris, and other contributors have been talking about how Arch is the most stable distro they've run on their machines, and Chris just wrote over Ubuntu on his studio audio production machine with Arch for this very reason. But it's not for everybody. I find that the combination of Arch being cleaner (less patched) with the exceptional troubleshooting resource of the Archwiki is easier and more stable to run than Release Upgrade distros.
30 • probably a different issue (by M.Z. on 2015-05-21 06:37:55 GMT from Planet Mars)
@29
Yes its more likely to be something else entirely, but the need to do all the extra troubleshooting and reading of the Arch wiki are down sides to the Arch way. The combo of bleeding edge & heavy user knowledge requirements are bound to lead to a few issues here & there, which could easily create incorrect user perceptions. Of course human memory is a funny thing, & can corrupt just as easy as a user on a expert level distro can make a mistake. At any rate Arch certainly has an appeal, even if has a few users baffled.
31 • @30 (by linuxista on 2015-05-21 18:44:57 GMT from North America)
>but the need to do all the extra troubleshooting
I don't think Arch requires extra troubleshooting, just different troubleshooting. In my experience the OS is easier to fix and responds to fixes better than other more "stable" OSes, I suppose because of the absence of extensive patching.
>and reading of the Arch wiki are down sides to the Arch way.
I use the Archwiki as an extensive, well-written resource to access; there's no need to read the whole thing like a textbook, especially if you don't start from a core install.
>The combo of bleeding edge & heavy user knowledge requirements are bound to lead to a few issues here & there
Heavy user knowledge requirements is overstated in my opinion. People don't realize all the user/admin knowledge they have developed from running Debian based systems over time (see pinning and repo management for example which is totally unnec. with Arch). If one installs Arch from a child distro like Manjaro (sort of), ArchBang, Antergos, etc. It's probably only slightly more difficult than Mint or Ubuntu and definitely less of a pain than plain Debian. Certain things about Arch make it easier to admin than all of these, such as aur vs. ppas and rolling vs. release upgrades.
32 • Re:Proliferation of new distros (by A-Style on 2015-05-21 20:24:28 GMT from North America)
I've been reading DW for at least 5 years now. During that time, DW has welcomed a long list of new distros, and some have departed from the scene for lack of developer availability. Most of them read like "Ubuntu-based distro with some new/custom packaging.". It sounds like people are not finding what they want in the main distro, so they take the base, tweak it to include their own custom package(s), and re-release it as a wholly separate distro. A successful example of that is Ubuntu (it's based on Debian, as most of DW readers probably know). At this point, however, the distro market is really saturated, IMHO, and trying to replicate the success of Ubuntu is pointless, that train has left the station. As I see it, Raspbian showed some promise of being new and interesting and worthwhile to follow. But others? it's like the userland programs. A quote I see often: "Any given person only needs about 10% of the software out there. But for every person that 10% is different.". The point of this post, let's cut down on complexity of choice. Yeah, it's good to have choices, and it's good to be able to find something that fits you like a glove, but having too many options, one quite similar to the next, is not necessarily a good thing.
33 • Arch (by jsmith on 2015-05-22 11:16:10 GMT from North America)
One of the things that makes Arch Linux truly exquisite is its documentation. I have learned so much from the Arch Wiki documents -- they are so complete and up-to-date. Even when I'm configuring or troubleshooting another distribution, I often find myself referring to the Arch Wiki for guidance. If you're something of a beginner and you're interested in taking your game to the next level, you can't do better than to play around with Arch Linux.
34 • choice is good (by subg on 2015-05-22 16:39:49 GMT from North America)
@32 What's complex about choice? We're free to make one and stick with it - or not. What gets complex is being told what to choose.
@34 best wiki out there, even for those of us who no longer use Arch.
35 • Arch & Choice (by M.Z. on 2015-05-22 19:02:01 GMT from Planet Mars)
@31
One point that struck me while looking through some Arch reviews the past week, if you start with a bare bones install, add a desktop & restart the DE doesn't automatically load like in some other distros. Having to manually set the DE to load is one of the 'Arch way' things that sets the Distro apart for better or worse depending on how hands on you are. I can't speak that much to your other comments about my impressions, but Arch looks like a very uber nerd/ next level distro for those who are beyond newbie status. I've also heard some great things about the Arch wiki as #33 & 34 point out, so if you RTFM to being with I get the impression many competent Linux users could make the transition.
@32
The thing of it is the only opinion that matters on that topic is the opinion of those who create the new Linux Distros. Although some projects like Foresight die others like Mint & PCLinuxOS become stable & long lived projects that live for many years with the support of users. All the forks & new projects out there are trying to do something specific for their users & some will inevitably fail to gain any traction; however, the right to try doing your own thing with Linux is embedded in the GPL license & a core value of Linux. I think DistroWatch does a reasonably good job showing you the best side of tip of the Linux iceberg. To my understanding there are literally thousands of distros out there if you really go looking, but you can easily reduce that to a handful of top choices & it could be as simple as clicking 'Major Distributions' at the top of the DW page. Why criticize what the distro makes do with their free time when it's so easy to remedy these sorts of complaints?
36 • freedom (by Tim Dowd on 2015-05-22 21:07:53 GMT from North America)
@27
I think you might have misread #8. They're not attacking RMS or the GPL. They're suggesting DW focus on why "share alike" is such an important freedom.
As for me, please don't misunderstand my position. The Free Software Foundation's efforts over the years have resulted in amazing development and research into libre software and if it weren't for those efforts we'd all be worse off. When I buy new hardware, I consider very carefully whether the new hardware I'm buying can be run using a completely libre distro and make choices based on that fact. That's what makes a difference, because it rewards companies that support libre software.
That said, it doesn't make a difference to insist on no non-free firmware for an old computer that's no longer in production and happens to become availible to a curious person. The best thing that can happen for that computer, the environment, the people who live in China or Ghana, and for the free software movement is that someone gets it running any free OS and then uses it for many years. We have to recognize that one of the major routes into GNU/Linux is people who like their older computer and were dismayed when Microsoft or Apple dropped support for it. The moment you plunk something like Mint or openSuse onto a computer that's been running like a slug under windows for 2 years and it just works is the moment when you can really have a discussion about libre, and freedoms, and planned obselecense, and why open-source software matters. You might make a convert from someone who's just thrilled they don't have to buy a new computer... and when they do buy a new computer, they contribute to the cause of libre software by buying one that will work with it.
No developer in the world is going to waste time working on libre firmware for a 2007 laptop. Nor should they. So if a proprietary binary blob that gives that laptop wifi or printer access exists, even if it's a non-free license, it's still supporting the cause of free software because if you don't use it, that laptop goes in the trash and gets replaced with something else containing non-free firmware and a copy of Windows 10.
I know this isn't idealogically pure. I appreciate all those who use libre only for their efforts. But slightly impure distros have been the gateway from Windows to libre for many a free software advocate.
37 • @35 Arch (by linuxista on 2015-05-22 23:37:45 GMT from North America)
Your comment about Arch "bare bones install" and "uber nerd" seems to completely overlook the point I made about installing Arch from a child distribution. It was:
>If one installs Arch from a child distro like Manjaro (sort of), ArchBang, Antergos, etc. It's probably only slightly more difficult than Mint or Ubuntu and definitely less of a pain than plain Debian. Certain things about Arch make it easier to admin than all of these, such as aur vs. ppas and rolling vs. release upgrades.
38 • Proliferation of new distros (by frodopogo on 2015-05-23 02:30:58 GMT from North America)
I think 32 is overstating things.... there are several reasons for alternatives to Ubuntu, one being different desktop interfaces and the other is concerns about corporate spyware.
However, the basic idea that every new distro is competing for attention and users with distros already out there is a good one. I think creators of new distros need to consider whether there is something already out there that is already covering the same bases, and that supporting that project MIGHT be an alternative, rather than competing with it.
Also, the Distrowatch rankings conceal the fact that some of those projects are not competing for the same users at all. Ubuntu Studio and AV Linux are both competing for musicians and video creators, likewise many other distros have specific uses and hence specific clienteles they are catering to. Zorin is trying to cater to Windows refugees, elementary to former Mac users or Mac users that somehow acquired a PC and want to use it for a second computer without having to relearn how they use a computer.
If you aren't aiming for the same purpose and the same clientele, then you aren't in competition with that distro. But if you ARE aiming for the same purpose and the same clientele ( or perhaps user base would be a better term) then the previously existing distro has set a bar that you are going to have to exceed, or you are wasting your time.
That seems so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said, and yet I don't think some people really stop to consider it. (I think people of focusing on the "trees" of specific features or the lack of them rather then the "forest" of who would actually support their distro.)
Another factor in all this is the compatibility of communities. I think some communities shoot themselves in the foot, because no matter how great the basic ideas are, if someone can't ask questions without getting flamed, they aren't going to participate and support that distro. Civility matters.
39 • Arch (by M.Z. on 2015-05-23 04:16:58 GMT from Planet Mars)
@37
Yes there are easier ways to get an Arch type system; however, I think half the point of running straight Arch would be the learning process & nerd cred. I think it's a good thing that some distros can guide you to that next level & I thought of Arch as one of them. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would have put Arch between Slackware & Gentoo as a deeper level distro that you could get your hands dirty with & really learn on. What else is a better option for that besides Slackware & Arch that still falls below the compile it all style of Gentoo & the really hands on style of Linux From Scratch?
I tried some Slackware made easy distro a while back & found it was too easy (Absolute Linux I think). I guess my question about Arch would be if straight Arch would be a better learning tool than Slackware. Which has the best combo of hands on & easy to learn, yet still takes you deeper? I was thinking I should try to use one of those more hands on distros some time relatively soon & was leaning toward Arch because of the wiki & some of the buzz, but maybe Slackware would be a better choice.
40 • @39 Arch (by linuxista on 2015-05-23 05:01:00 GMT from North America)
>I think half the point of running straight Arch would be the learning process & nerd cred.
It might be for some, but that's not why I use it. I use it because I've always had 3 or 4 distros going on my laptop and went through a period of distro hopping over the years. Distros would get written over b/c of 1) catastrophic breakage, 2) running into limitations or hassle, 3) software unavailability, 4) dependency conflicts (ehem, Debian), and 5) maybe general lack of interest or advantage.
I installed Archbang about 5 years ago and never expected it to last, but lo and behold, even after installing and uninstalling a host of software and various desktop environments, transitioning to systemd, and cloning it to various partitions, it just keeps running as clean as the day it was installed. And because it's rolling I never have to reinstall and reconfigure all my settings, etc. I get the newest software, yet my experience is that breakage and bugs are minimal --- no worse, and maybe better, than Ubuntu or even Debian stable. And software availability is unsurpassed and you don't have to screw around with ppas.
It's been my primary distro for at least 3 or 4 years. I still keep a couple as backups (like an install of Mint I never boot into), but I never need them. I don't really distro hop any more because I can't see any advantage. If I want KDE or Budgie or LXQt I just install it.
You might be right that Gentoo and Slackware force you to learn things whereas with Arch, if you don't start from a core install, it's optional. I gave up trying to install Gentoo one time, and Slackware, though I might be wrong, has some things I don't want to deal with, such as cfdisk, lilo, or software availability. If I had the time I would look into these distros as well. They certainly have nerd cred with me and probably run cleanly without many patches. But my advocacy of Arch comes from a different direction: that it's actually the easiest and most stable distro in the long run for a good portion of linux users.
41 • Proliferation and Freed'em (by Kragle on 2015-05-23 06:52:11 GMT from North America)
38 • Proliferation • The tightening global economy has motivated several developers to scale_down from supporting a full_distribution and focus on what parts they want to bring to the table. Long_term, this may be a Good_Thing. Choice can be not_so_good, as in [Yet_Another "package_manager", "software_manager", "app_store" or "desktop_environment"], or frequent_churn in [library_set or distro_base] - symptoms of small-pond monopolism, Some tails want to wag the dog. If a standard can be improved, shouldn't it be improved for all?
…
New and shiny isn't always better (enough).
…
Never trust an update(/upgrade); test your backup copy first.
36 • freedom • I suspect that's why DebIan, respected champion of Freed-Software, accommodates driver binaries for older hardware. After all, many computer purchasers are swindled (by marketing that puts the hardware before the software before the task) long before they become aware of better options, and merciless zealotry rarely wins them over. (That said, perhaps we'll see licensing overtly presented in, say, Apper and Synaptic, in Basic and Advanced levels, someday.) As Freed Open_Source Software drivers out_perform proprietary development, and customers become aware of this, won't market forces force vendors to adapt?
42 • @ 37 An alternative Arch installer (by Arch User on 2015-05-24 22:00:31 GMT from North America)
Or just cut to the chase and install Arch straight up with Evo/Lution.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/evolutionlinux/
This comes as a Live CD and is essentially an updated version of their former ncurses based installer. Makes installing Arch a quick painless experience for all the Linux users that fall below a computer of science degree level.
As I understand it, his is being developed outside the Arch community due to Arch wanting to maintain their "barrier of entry" no installer philosophy.
43 • @31 Debian innstall a pain? (by solt87 on 2015-05-24 22:01:37 GMT from Europe)
>> and definitely less of a pain than plain Debian
I've installed plain Debian many times (both on real and virtual machines), and I never noticed any difficulty or problem; I find the so-called "expert install" to be as straight-forward as it can get, even setting up LUKS and LVM is easy.
If that's "more pain" than e.g. writing your vconsole.conf manually, then we have very differing ideas about what "pain" is.
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