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1 • Debian Jessie 8 (by tuxtest on 2015-05-04 01:37:17 GMT from North America)
I agree Debian 8 is funny and really soft in daily use. Congrat Dev team ! Big nice work on graphique installer... Easy smooth step by step ! With this version Debian, I can say that any Lamba user now can easily install Debian.
I downloaded Debian 8 version liveDVD gnome amd 64bit. I burned DVD and launch the beast, finally I decided to install on my old T400 to replace OpenSuse Tumbleweed had become unbearable and I must tell you that after five days with is happiness for my old Lenovo. Previously, I was under OpenSuse Tumbleweed my god I have suffered with! Tumbleweed is really not ready for daily use. Many problem and the big one is intolerable long boot least 3 minutes. I enjoyed Gnome 3.18 in Tumbleweed. I know many linux user don't like gnome but I alway like Gnome 3. I hope to install the GNOME 3.18 release shortly on the Debian 8.
I need to install manually 2 packages first one is firware iwifi intel and flashplayer. Unfortunately I hope this is my last years with flash.
Another Congrat dev team Debian !
2 • Debian (by Reaper on 2015-05-04 02:38:00 GMT from North America)
Welcome to Debian Lindows!
I used Debian for a VERY LONG TIME and had issues with it the whole time. I switched to a true UNIX-like Linux (Slackware) when systemdevil was forced in my PC and then finally forced as my init. Debian is no longer GNU/Linux in my eyes. Now it's just another RedHat/poettering distro just like all the rest that have fallen under their control.
3 • Debian (by Reuben on 2015-05-04 03:21:00 GMT from North America)
I had a Debian Sid system until sometime during the fall which I switched away from because the freeze leading up to Jessie left everything stagnant. Once you figure out everything, nothing wrong with using it as a desktop system. Figuring this out might be a problem for less experienced users.
Installing a new desktop system isn't something that most people do that often. A bit of time spent getting stuff setup isn't a very big deal.
4 • Debian 8 (by Bill S on 2015-05-04 03:59:20 GMT from Planet Mars)
You're right it took about 4 hours and a bit of hacking to get Debian 8 and compiz and emerald working together along with flash and gstreamer tools, but it's all working now.
Here is my desktop: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/FS/M.aspx?v=8a696a8c58909f76ad98
5 • Debian, rock solid (by claudecat on 2015-05-04 04:46:23 GMT from North America)
I've used Debian stable for years now as my everyday OS, and have never had a problem. Not with audio or video, not with anything. I even did an in place upgrade of my Wheezy system to Jessie a week or two early, and survived. Had a few minor issues, but with minimal research had everything back to normal within a few days. Wouldn't recommend that for everyone though!
For me, a guy with simple needs (mostly web browsing, some office suite work, heavy media use, minor graphic design and photo editing, older system), Debian gets it done. Rock solid stable, no gigabytes of updates burning up my bandwidth cap, and every package imaginable available, including the latest versions of Mozilla offerings if you know how.
No complaints, no drama, it just works. After years of hopping around, and still doing a little of that (love Manjaro), Debian feels like home, and, most importantly, stays out of the way and lets me get things done. Kudos to the fine folks that make it happen!
6 • @1 gnome 3.18 (by linuxista on 2015-05-04 05:12:26 GMT from North America)
Are you sure you installed gnome 3.18? If you managed that I don't know how you can complain about Tumbleweed not being ready for daily use! I'm assuming you mean 3.16, which I've got running without any issues on Arch except for one bug where gdm won't let you boot into other desktops. I expect it should be fixed pretty soon.
7 • Debian 8 (by Bill on 2015-05-04 05:50:27 GMT from Oceania)
As a long-time Debian user I am so disappointed that this distro has gone the systemd route. If the Debian project had resisted, systemd would probably have eventually disappeared. I believe that the original UNIX principles are worth standing up for; the principle of simplicity leads to stable and secure computer systems. Linux is now heading down the Microsoft path.
So it's back to Slackware (or CRUX or Gentoo) for me, while experimenting with the BSDs in case these last true Linux distros eventually have to use systemd. If that does happen, it will be because Debian capitulated.
8 • No media apps in Debian? Not ready for desktop use? (by Martin on 2015-05-04 05:53:55 GMT from Europe)
Debian's default desktop isn't MATE, but GNOME. Had you installed the GNOME desktop, you would have had Gnome's Music and Videos apllications pre-installed. Indeed, I was pleasantly surprised that Debian 8 did play MP3 and MP4 files out of the box, without me having to manually install any codecs. It is true that Debian doesn't ship with Flash out of the box, but apart from that, the entire GNOME desktop was fully functional. In short: you chose to install Debian 8 with a non-default Desktop environment, and then proceeded to complain about Debian 8 not being suited for Desktop use. I find that quite disappointing.
9 • agreeing with Martin's point (by randall on 2015-05-04 06:10:46 GMT from North America)
You've made a fair point, Martin. I don't know what the stats are. I wonder how many people self-select an alternate desktop environment instead of selecting the "default"? I also wonder whether debian explains/documents, up front, what differences (in terms of pre-installed applications) exist between the various "flavors".
10 • 32-bit versions of Simplicity (by Justiniano on 2015-05-04 06:47:15 GMT from Asia)
Simplicity 15.4 has 32-bit desktop and netbook versions which run very nicely on older machines either live or fully installed.
11 • Debian 8 (by jura321 on 2015-05-04 08:51:15 GMT from Europe)
Hi,
just one remark - with big regret towards honorable old, stable and always reliable Debian, I have to write down - JUST ANOTHER SYSTEMD parody of LINUX distribution.
GNOME 3 as default WM - WDF? Who uses GNONE 3 today? I bet just really small minority of users - and why? Because by default its useless - put it as default ? = why? Not for users for sure so for whom?
MARTIN@Some could expect that if installer provides
option for choosing other desktops then every option was tested and should work same regardless which one is default.
SYSTEMD - default init system - everyone(big) goes this way but still not sure if it's right way for Linux. God bless distributions like Gentoo, Slackware, PCLinuxOS etc.
Best regards
jura321
12 • Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, BSD but no Android. (by Greg Zeng on 2015-05-04 09:46:15 GMT from Oceania)
Checking Distrowatch just now, there are 129 Debian-based distros. Seventy-one distros (71, 55%, or most of these) are based on Ubuntu. Many other independent authorities and myself are commenting that Distrowatch seems to not understand that Mint five distros (highest ranking according to Distrowatch!) is not the most popular.
Ubuntu's 71 distros, also including Mint, are the most popular. Microsoft full-time staff on Linux distros claim this to also be true (Linux Action Show 362, 27 April, 2015).
Those of who think that know that a Unix-based distribution includes BSD-types & Linux, are also surprized that Apple (a BSD-fork) and Android (a Linux fork) are not considered. CyanogenMod claiming itself as a purist version of Android (Wikipedia), claims that both these operating are open-source and Linux based (CM's website). Many of us have been very confused by this Distrowatch disagreement with practically every other operating system authority and publication - hardcopy & softcopy.
13 • Debian 8 defaults (by ramone515 on 2015-05-04 10:30:24 GMT from Europe)
Debian 8 is rock solid, I have been using the testing version for a while and didn't have a single issue. In my main desktop I use Arch however, and didn't have to reinstall for about 3 years now. (loving rolling release)
I understand that some people don't want to change their habits and resent change, but guess what, there are distros for you out there, like Slackware.
I am managing Linux servers for about 10 years now, and I fail to see how systemd has affected me in both server and desktop. Oh, and I use GNOME 3 and I love it, and I have used literally everything for a period of time, including KDE 2,3,4 GNOME 2 (and MATE), Unity, Cinnamon, XFCE, Windows and Mac. (I like testing things!)
Just because you don't want to change the way you use your desktop, doesn't mean everybody doesn't, I did, and now I can even imaging going back to a "traditional" desktop, like MATE. I just fell more productive with GNOME 3.
Thanks to the diverse Linux/Open source universe, there is something out there for everybody, no need to attack what others like!
14 • Debian "Jessie" (by César on 2015-05-04 10:39:21 GMT from South America)
Hi!!!
I install Debian "Jessie" with Mate (i love the old Gnome 2.** style!), and don't have any problems. Everything works fine, the FGLRX driver works very good, Epson XP-201 prints and scan with good quality. All works!!!
The installer is 99% the same of Debian 7, perhaps most complete, because in this version you can select the environment in the install process.
And the switch of the init, i found more faster the boot process, more "light".
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
15 • @11 (by Martin on 2015-05-04 10:39:25 GMT from Europe)
For the record: I've used Gnome 3 every day for 4 years and though it had some warts in the early days, it's nowadays a beautiful, very polished, and highly usable desktop that is perfectly suited for both work and play. Yes, they have moved away from the "traditional desktop metaphor", and yes, you will have to select some options from a menu button (*gasp*) because they go for a minimalist interface rather than cramming every imaginable option into the toolbar. On top of that, you can use extensions to adapt the shell to your needs almost without limits. With a bit of good will, Gnome 3 should work fine for nearly everyone. If you prefer MATE, fine, whatever floats your boat. But stop the Gnome bashing already.
16 • @1 "...Tumbleweed is really not ready for daily use..." (by Anamezon on 2015-05-04 10:55:08 GMT from Europe)
I happen to disagree strongly with this statement - most of my home machines had been on OpenSUSE Tumbleweed (sprinkled with a bit of Factory here and there) for at least a couple of years, and only one of them had an Intel-firmware-related problem ONCE! Boot times are definitely less than a minute, with the normal assortment of services running for home use ... well, perhaps I should admit I favour light DEs and WMs, not GNOME3 or KDE4-5, but this is not so important - what I am trying to say is that Tumbleweed is absolutely alright to be used on a daily basis!
17 • Debian 8 (by Leonard Ashley on 2015-05-04 10:56:17 GMT from North America)
I have to admit that once I installed Debian two years ago, I have seen vast improvements in the final release. Quicker boot time, shutdown and over-all behavior is flawless. I have been dist-upgrading to Debian Sid, the best of Debian with all the cutting edge development, drivers and newest releases of applications. Personally prefer a core install, no DE, just a compilation of Openbox apps to get me to login. Debian to me is the best there is, have great respect for Arch. I understand that AMD-ATI will be greatly improving support for further development with Linux for 2015, this is great news. I believe this year will be a very good year for Debian. I would like to thank all that have contributed to it's developement.
"When you say, 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows,' people just stare at you blankly and say, 'Hey, I got those with the system, for free.' -- Linus Torvalds
18 • On Resistance (by nobodyspecial on 2015-05-04 12:11:02 GMT from Oceania)
Debian's hypothetical resistance to systemd would not have resulted in in systemd disappearing. It would have more likely resulted in Debian disappearing.
It seems to me that the lion's share of upstream OS plumbing work is being done and pioneered by Red Hat, with the rest following suit.
19 • No Android? (by Jesse on 2015-05-04 12:43:11 GMT from North America)
@12: I'm a bit confused by your statement. DistroWatch tracks Android-x86 (Android for general purpose machines). In fact I posted a review of it. What we usually do not do is track distributions tied to a specific platform. For example, Google's Android with its custom firmware can't be uprooted and simply installed on a general purpose computer. Likewise we don't cover Amazon's Linux because it's used exclusively on Amazon's cloud services. Almost all the software we track is designed to be run on general purpose computers. Plain Android doesn't fit that description, but Android-x86 does.
20 • Arch_Linux_the_razor's_edge_to_freedom (by k on 2015-05-04 12:58:36 GMT from Europe)
"Arise, awake, and learn by approaching the exalted ones, for that path is sharp as a razor's edge, impassable, and hard to go by, say the wise." [Katha Upanishad] Relating to wise perspective (comments 13) shared by ramone515... If you have the minimum recommended hardware and suitable internet connection and open- (Zen) mind to spare, just try Arch Linux. Its developers and community have obviously applied A LOT of quality time, expertise and effort to provide all with a default secure, highly adaptable springboard Arc(h) (of a diver) to freedom.
21 • @13 (by a on 2015-05-04 13:19:42 GMT from Europe)
"I understand that some people don't want to change their habits and resent change"
You don’t understand anything, you’re just trolling.
"no need to attack what others like!"
And yet here you are, assuming arrogantly that other people can’t make informed choices and are against systemd just because they are resistant to change.
22 • Debian 8 (by Mindaugas on 2015-05-04 14:16:54 GMT from Europe)
2015-04-25 i install Debian 8 with ate DE on me x64 bit. machine. What a wonderful experience! Music plays with audacious without any problems, i can watch videos in VLC player, or Smplayer. No need any tweaks. System JUST works.
23 • @6 (by tuxtest on 2015-05-04 14:18:14 GMT from North America)
yes it Gnome 3.16
24 • @21 (by ramone515 on 2015-05-04 14:26:51 GMT from Europe)
I am not assuming anything, my comment was meant not only for systemd, but for GNOME 3 as well. I have seen many attacks on GNOME (check some comments above, about Debian using it as default) and I just don't see the reason to attack something you don't like and don't use. I think you'd agree that Gnome 3 changed the "traditional" desktop most users like and expect. Some like it, some don't. It's not like someone is forcing you to use it!
Nevertheless, in my opinion, systemd is a clear improvement over the init / control system we had until now. That's why everybody starts using it, even Canonical which sponsored and created upstart not long ago. Not because there is some secret consirancy to convert everyone to systemd.
This forum post sums it up nicely:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530
Again, if you don't want to use it, nobody forces you to, plenty of options out there (forks, other distros).
25 • Debian 8 - super solid with Xfce (by Rich D on 2015-05-04 14:41:22 GMT from North America)
I worked with Ubuntu-based distros with Xfce as my main DE for awhile - in the past, my experiences with pure Debian had been mixed, mainly because my Linux skills weren't quite up to the task. They're still not superlative, but much better. That, in combination with what I feel is an improved Debian base has made it a super-solid choice for me, when combined with Xfce, even after switching to a Liquorix kernel and installing some packages from the AntiX / MX14 repos (Xfce 4.12). No problems to speak of. Updates run, I get what I need to do done, put it into suspend, wake it up a few hours later. Great job Debian!
26 • Gnome 3 and Systemd (by Jura321 on 2015-05-04 15:06:10 GMT from Europe)
Hi,
@13,@24
sorry but I must react on you - what are you talking about? I've just written my opinion on SYSTEMD as well as on GNOME 3. If it's not your cap of tea it's your problem, not mine.I was not attacking I was just writing my feelings.
GNOME 3:
Of course I'm not using Gnome 3, the last usable GNOME was Gnome 2. Despite of great power and effort from RHEL and others(default settings in some distributions, reviews, tips etc..), GNOME 3 still losing popularity and users. Fortunately there are other DE - more usable from my point of view - KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, xfce etc. This is my opinion, you can use what suits your needs the best, but it's not about the changing habits it's about the usability.
SYSTEMD:
The same is with SYSTEMD. If you like it use it, but stop attacking others who don't.
"I am managing Linux servers for about 10 years now, and I fail to see how systemd has affected me in both server and desktop." - don't get me wrong, but from your statement, I can see that your "MANAGING" is more about "service stop and start" otherwise you would know that SYSTEMD had and still have a lot of issues - mainly regarding compatibility with the old init scripts beside others.
Please use this forum as forum - it means let people write their opinions, feelings and experiences. If you have different ones, write them down as well but stop attacking other as you did before :
"I understand that some people don't want to change their habits and resent change" or "Just because you don't want to change the way you use your desktop, doesn't mean everybody doesn't, I did, and now I can even imaging going back to a "traditional" desktop, like MATE."
Best regards
jura321
27 • @20 (by jaws222 on 2015-05-04 15:06:26 GMT from North America)
I love Antergos and Manjaro. Very fast operating systems and both are reliable.
28 • Farewell Debian, and Ubuntu (by Paraquat on 2015-05-04 15:23:50 GMT from Asia)
I started using Debian sometime around year 2000, then later switched to Ubuntu, then wound up with a Debian/Ubuntu dual-boot system because both had good reasons to recommend them.
Normally, I would get pretty excited whenever there was a new release of either Debian or Ubuntu. But now both have gone systemd, as others have already noted. And I have moved on.
After spending the past half-year or so searching around for another great distro, I finally settled on Manjaro OpenRC. Please note that mainstream Manjaro does use systemd, but the developers of this distro have decided to make an edition for those who prefer OpenRC. Manjaro spun off from Arch, so it's not quite newbie point-and-click friendly, but anyone with moderate geek skills should enjoy it. The package collection is impressive, close to Debian-sized.
Anyone interested in giving Manjaro OpenRC a try, here's a link:
https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=19942.0
29 • Debian 8 (by Buntunub on 2015-05-04 15:30:46 GMT from North America)
I think some folks are very confused about the systemd schism in Debian. Firstly, Deb fans and long time users do not have a problem with Debians use of systemd. They are upset that it was MADE DEFAULT in Jessie primarily due to systemd's scope creep and dependancy chains. I have never seen anyone in the Debian project complain that systemd is an accepted package, and TBH, I know plenty of folks who would go to the mat to defend keeping systemd in Debian as one of many accepted and supported init systems providing users with choice. So in the end, its about providing users with the choice of init system. If you want to run Debian with SysV as the one and only init system, then that should be fully supported. If you want to run systemd, then that should ALSO be fully supported. That is what all the angst was about and still is a VERY sore and gaping open wound in the Debian community.
Lastly, the systemd debate - its ever creeping arms and constantly changing nature. That is a debate that lies outside of Debian. Systemd is an upstream project and Debian really does not control what Poetering or Red Hat decides to do with systemd. They do have strong input and work hard to integrate it into the Stable, Testing, and Unstable branches.
30 • @29 (by jaws222 on 2015-05-04 15:54:45 GMT from North America)
"Lastly, the systemd debate - its ever creeping arms and constantly changing nature. That is a debate that lies outside of Debian. Systemd is an upstream project and Debian really does not control what Poetering or Red Hat decides to do with systemd. "
Isn't this why the Devuan project started? They want to go back to init but from what I've heard/read Devuan is not too organized.
31 • Debian on the desktop (by SilentSam on 2015-05-04 16:43:11 GMT from North America)
I feel like stating that Debian isn't well suited to Desktop use is akin to saying Arch linux isn't suitable for Desktop use. Maybe the statement could be change to say that it isn't a fully integrated desktop experience OOTB?
I like the fact that a GUI package manager isn't installed unless I specify it, same with an Update manager.
32 • @26 (by ramone515 on 2015-05-04 16:45:12 GMT from Europe)
Again I cannot see how I am attacking you or anyone else. I was just expressing some of my personal views on the main subject of this week's DWW, Debian 8, and some of the default options. I am just stating the diversity of options available and fail to see why leaders or developers of some projects (like again, systemd or GNOME3) receive all that negative comments.
For example you are stating that GNOME 3 is "unusable". How do you support that? Just because you don't like it it doesn't mean it is unusable or that it shouldn't be default in Debian. I am not saying that you should like it or be forced to use it, and of course you are free and welcomed to use GNOME 2 (MATE), but then *again* that doesn't mean that Debian should have as default a desktop that is over 10 years old at 2015.
systemd is perfectly stable, I am mostly managing servers that handle web applications and it has made my life easier, especially with much improved daemon control, better NFS mounting and piece-of-cake docker control. I am sure others had trouble, any update of such a major component often brings unwelcomed breakage, but that's why sysadmins are here, to fix stuff. :)
33 • Distribution Release Frequency Statistics (by wrkerr on 2015-05-04 16:48:40 GMT from North America)
Thanks for addressing my question, Jesse. It seems my perception of decline was not very well founded.
To the many commenters decrying Gnome 3, I personally have found it quite enjoyable to use recently. I agree that it was rough when it was first released, but the most recent releases have been great--just what I look for in a user interface.
34 • Debian8 (by Toran on 2015-05-04 17:01:21 GMT from Europe)
Installing d8 took a long time in comparison with Ubuntu, but it is time well spent. I use the standard Debian Desktop which is Gnome. Really happy with it as I consider the Gnome the best desktop of all desktops. It took me a while to figure out how to install contrib and non-free, but now really happy with Debian 8.
35 • Hey distrowatchers! (by Baltazar on 2015-05-04 17:24:32 GMT from North America)
Am I the only one that would like to see a report or review of Linux accessibility tools and distributions?
Been searching and I feel a bit let down, actually am let down at the minimal attention this gets...
Having known of people who are partially blind I have tried to find a Linux distro that would be adequate to them but have found it difficult to present what I have currently found...
Add to this that some projects, like ORCA seems to have been abandoned... plus I must be missing something...
36 • Accessibility and release frequency (by Jesse on 2015-05-04 17:46:19 GMT from North America)
@33: In geenral, release frequency hasn't changed much in recent years. There up and down points in each year, so short-term statistics can be misleading. On average, year to year, we are seeing fairly steady output from projects.
@35: Perhaps you should try Knoppix? The developer's wife is, if I recall correctly, visiually impaired and so the distribution has an edition set up with accessibility in mind. Debian also claims to have accessiiblity in mind and they have the text-to-speech installer I mentioned above. However, Debian may require more technical know-how than Knoppix.
37 • systemD (by DJ on 2015-05-04 18:01:54 GMT from North America)
I seriously doubt systemD will kill Linux. There needs to be no hate on systemD. I think if you just like at stats alone therfe is more venom spewed at systemD supporters than anti-systemD.
Flash is not needed for me. A combo of gnash and lightspark works quite well. IMO
38 • How Many Years of Pointless Systemd Ranting? (by joncr on 2015-05-04 18:05:09 GMT from North America)
So... how many years, you think, we'll have to put up with threads being hijacked by poseurs ranting about systemd?
I propose that everyone who insists on being faithful to the "One tool for one task" mantra ditch all GUI's, abandon emacs/vi (both do more than one thing, obviously) and, ideally, find the source for 386BSD from the early '90's and build it on an old Compaq.
Not that they'll see this, 'cause they won't be using a browser, either.
39 • Systemd (by Nematoad on 2015-05-04 18:27:04 GMT from Europe)
"Thanks to the diverse Linux/Open source universe, there is something out there for everybody..."
That, unfortunately is what a lot of people both here and elsewhere are worried about. Me included.
Buntunub @29 has summed it up. The mission creep that has been seen in systemd, the apparent inability of systemd devs, i.e. Kay Sievers' falling out with Linus Torvalds, to play nicely with other peoples code and the general attitude that "We are the masters now." has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. That and the repudiation of the "Unix mantra" to develop a tightly integrated, Linux only init system offering a single point of failure means that there will be push-back, harsh words will be exchanged and a great deal of worry caused. All this because Poettering and co. seem not to be very good at the social aspect of FOSS. What worries me and others like me is that eventually there *will* be no diversity.
Then it will be just like the Windows or Apple world. "Take it or leave it."
40 • Take a deep breath and have a systemd laugh (by cykodrone on 2015-05-04 18:32:46 GMT from North America)
Some systemd humour...
https://systemdexploit.wordpress.com/
My personal opinion is I'm not comfortable with a single process controlling my whole system, that's quite a broad attack surface. PID1 makes me nervous too, rebooting after applying patch(es) and a misbehaving child process could possibly bring down the whole system (sound familiar? *cough-MS-cough*). I'm also not comfortable with the ambiguous system logging and binary log files, I see no reason to convert them to binaries and then need a proprietary program or process to read them, what's being left out, what's not? I'm guessing other geeks are control freaks as well, we like to know exactly what our systems are doing and why, no smoke screens.
As for Debian 8's release, not much fanfare from what I've seen, the odd pocket of the faithful, but nothing to really speak of, the lack of enthusiasm speaks volumes.
Somebody else mentioned Debian using upstream proprietary software (it's produced by a corporation, it's still GPL, for now) and lack of choice, that's my sore spot too, I don't like or use Gnome, so if I choose another DE, there should be ZERO systemd related files, packages, processes, whatever, on my system, if I so choose. Gnome shouldn't depend on an init anyway (can we really still call systemd an init?), if Gnome had any hopes of broad adoption, their insane dependency on systemd killed that opportunity (IMO).
We need a new term for systemd, it's NOT just an init anymore, only a small (very tiny) part of it is, it's more like a svcborg.exe. Maybe 'all encompassing total system and service manager' would be more appropriate.
Just my 1.6 cents CAD
41 • systemd (by Leonhard Euler on 2015-05-04 19:31:40 GMT from Europe)
No, I am not worried about systemd. As most of the other guys who talk about it I do not know enough to judge. I just trust the distros that use it.
What I am worried about is the amount of hatred that it, and its opposition, causes. If project and distros loose good programmers because of the flamewar it is a problem. If the kernel and the systemd developers have problems in working together it is a problem. The ego of the developers is the main problem not the software.
42 • friendly fire (by Tim Dowd on 2015-05-04 19:57:04 GMT from North America)
The problem I have with the systemd (and Gnome 3) debate is that it's so nasty and personal. This is a big week for free software with a new Debian stable and possibly big impending changes in Ubuntu and there's probably potential future users reading these threads and it looks like we're all angry, nasty people. Do we think that's going to help advance the free software cause?
I am comfortable with the level of diversity in the free software ecosystem. There are plenty of really good distros out there for people who need or want any possible combination of software. Please stop screaming at each other. Pick a distro that fits your needs and write about why others should use that distro. In that way you keep what you want healthy and vibrant and send the RIGHT message about free software: that it's whatever it's community wants it to be. "I'm switching to Slackware because I'm SO ANGRY at Debian" is a slap at both distros because it implies one is a second choice. How about "I'm switching to Slackware because I like how elegant it is" or something of that nature? Everytime I've distro-hopped I've learned something new and it's been a pleasure, and it's made me really zero in on what matters.
At the end of the day these are all tools that have been given to us for free by people that I'm very grateful for. Use the ones that work the best for you. I have an old iMac G4 that stopped being able to run Debian or it's children when during the wheezy development cycle the xorg nv driver was replaced with the nouveau driver. How could I honestly complain about this when it only affected a few dozen people who still want to run such an old machine with a modern operating system? Instead of getting mad, I went looking and found NetBSD, which it turns out I really enjoy using and fits my needs perfectly. I bet for every person angry about something their distro has done, there's another distro that's perfect for them and maybe needs users to notice them.
43 • @ Tim - NetBSD (by Lutz on 2015-05-04 20:24:44 GMT from Europe)
Hello Tim, yes you are right. Works here too.
44 • systemd - more (by redfeather on 2015-05-04 22:22:26 GMT from North America)
...and who is pushing systemd? Red Hat!?
45 • reboot (by herauthon on 2015-05-04 22:57:55 GMT from Europe)
it's very strange howmuch there is left from the intellectual reasons not to choose for a single-entity core controlling processes - will Linux become the next Windows ?
to refer to mark twain - quoted down below this little voting-cube
http://www.mintpressnews.com/mark-twain-quotes-show-he-would-have-been-an-activist-today/203062/
here a nice one :
“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
46 • Debian 8 (by Bill on 2015-05-04 23:16:57 GMT from North America)
Truly pleased with Debian 8. I use xfce for my desktop and would like to thank the Debian Community for creating such a solid distro.
Cheers,
Bill
47 • Debian and systemd (by Bill on 2015-05-04 23:29:46 GMT from Oceania)
friendly fire and others: I would love to believe that you are correct - that open source gives us choice and so those who do not want systemd can choose other distros. What I and many others are worried about, however, is that the scope creep of systemd will eventually force Slackware and others to adopt it.
We are worried about systemd because we are worried that it will eventually mean no choice.
48 • @35 • Hey distrowatchers! (by mandog on 2015-05-04 23:33:30 GMT from South America)
Orca is very live and well Its at 3.16.1 and belongs to Gnome 3.16.1 desktop maybe others are not interested in the partially sighted but Gnome does cater for then as it always has
49 • SystemD and Sysvinit (by BonkY Ozmond on 2015-05-05 00:05:33 GMT from North America)
did no body read this ..about Debiand shipping both to keep greybeards happy
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/27/debian_quits_wheezing_ships_jessie/
50 • Re: Jessie Sysvinit (by cykodrone on 2015-05-05 00:37:57 GMT from North America)
It's not a totally clean install, it still drags in a few systemd related files. Not only that, systemd dependencies are just a click or command away, depending on what app or DE you install. So Debian, nice try but no cigar.
Blocking it (see link) will surely and eventually cause errors or package install failures. It's a fake appeasement.
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
51 • Debian, Gnome & Bohdi (by M.Z. on 2015-05-05 01:06:11 GMT from Planet Mars)
I used Debian 7 on an old PC of mine for quite some time (over a year?) & though it was OK with KDE. I do think the initial setup is fairly cumbersome compared to most any truly desktop/PC oriented distro & most would find LMDE or another desktop focused project based on Debian to be easier to get running. I didn't use Debian that much but it was hassle free after the setup process.
As for defaulting to Gnome, well it's a rather broken DE for a large majority of users who want a real desktop rather than a broken mix of desktop & smart phone style UI. The problems are too numerous to to list completely, but there isn't even basic minimization & maximization functionality that all desktop users expect built into the DE by default. I've also heard numerous complaints about the file manager & I find launching apps to be a rather horrendous affair every time I try do do it the GUI way in Gnome. None of that would matter if Gnome hadn't started out as a general purpose DE & spat in the face of those who wanted to keep using it a a general purpose DE. If the entire project didn't go off the rails & take a bunch of rather indifferent projects like Debian & Fedora with then no one would care that a project in the style of Gnome shell/3 existed. Now after every release people are reminded of the indifference & stupidity of the Gnome 3 developers & their apologists in otherwise reputable projects like Fedora & Debian who insist on using such a broken desktop as the default because they have always used Gnome. I don't think most users care if it video or whatever works well in Gnome 3, because Gnome 3 is about as popular with most Linux users as Windows 8 was for the general public. They were both broken & poorly executed designs that alienated users. I would be more inclined to try straight Debian again if the setup was a bit easier, & they obviously aren't winning any points by sticking with Gnome as an official default.
On a positive note I think the new Moksha desktop release from Bohdi sounds like a good idea. I was surprised at how fat & slow Bohdi 3 seemed with the default E19 desktop on my old Celeron PC with 1.5 GB of RAM. The thing actually started to use swap & felt waay slower that LMDE Mate did on the same hardware. So much for Enlightenment being 'light'. The supposed weight of the desktop was a core factor in putting Bodhi on there after Debian KDE was wiped, but it really didn't seem much faster. Kudos to the Bohdi team for trying to fix more bad decisions from DE designers.
As for systemd, yes there is some questionable stuff going on, but it's not that bad & I doubt many people will noticed the difference, as the guy in that did the review of Debian 8 for Ars Technica points out:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/05/01/debian-8-linuxs-most-reliable-distro-makes-its-biggest-change-since-1993/
@35 &48 -accessibility
Just though I'd point out that KDE & Cinnamon both have some built in tools to help with accessibility. The real question is how well they work & compare with each other, which I can't answer.
52 • @36 ...K&D (by Baltazar on 2015-05-05 01:17:55 GMT from North America)
I have tried them and thats why am bugging here a bit, they seem lacking to me and even though Knoppix has its ADRIANE and all I just can't see it as an option to my friend... or anyone with little to no computer knowledge.
And this is just part of the problem... The technologies are not been reviewed, they are just forgotten. I mean, just go to orca.org and see how that page is... it seems stuck, the whole project is abandomware now. It works, but having use it I feel it is a shame it is not getting any attention.
Besides, there is more than just speech... zooming helps those with limited vision. But the combinations I have look in to, Vinux, knoppix and the rest, even debian and have not been able to fulfill my expectations for a system for a total noob, they need more understanding than what they have... training and all. Add to that language barriers...
For example... knoppix ADRINE. I could give it away to them and explain hoe to get to use it but... then things start to get complicated and the setup is limited in a way that from experience they will simply not be able to get by with it.
Start ADRIANE... have nice menu options... good... but no easy way to connect to wifi unless you go into the desktop environment.... that has tini tiny text and an alien environment with no nohow on how to zoom (remember limited vision) and things get dicey... I use glasses and I try to get by taking them off and going for the spin... it gets frustrating fast...
Then, there is those that suggest using just command line interface... This is a no go to present to some, even though it is possible. I for one have a horrible time remembering proper spelling... add to that the names of applications and commands one would need to know to get by in such and environment... for a noob who is blind... and happens to know no English to top it off... it becomes impossible.
Then there is this desktop thing... that gets polish and polish... for those of us with no limitations... But for those with limited vision or no vision I see no polish... no care been given, just an afterthought. Vague, incomplete... good for a few but still lacking...
This is not the first time I write about this... been searching for a good wile now... and am just feeling that this is not been properly addressed.
My reasoning been, if I can't get by... they probably can't eider... and I know computers and Linux a bit considering I fix computers and all...
53 • Debian & Systemd (by cflow on 2015-05-05 01:48:14 GMT from North America)
I've noticed so much systemd debate in Distrowatch... What I have not seen is debate here that's actually about the technical aspects of using this init system. This Ars review and it's comments go way more in-depth:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/05/01/debian-8-linuxs-most-reliable-distro-makes-its-biggest-change-since-1993/
Apperently, the issue is that systemd is trying to make Linux more suitible for a graphical desktop distribution, but in the expence of so many other uses of Linux. Server admins have troubles using it, yet because Systemd is well maintained code and had many needed features, people will use it anyways.
Now that Debian uses systemd, there could be sort of dialogue between users, maintainers and the developers of the init system. After all, Debian has so many technical users, and should be able to pressure the developers to adress their concerns. Otherwise, Debian will see the dissatisfations themselves and do something about it...
54 • friendly fire (by Tim Dowd on 2015-05-05 02:39:02 GMT from Planet Mars)
@47
I'm not saying that your scenario is far-fetched... it could honestly happen. But the problem is that none of this angst and anger accomplishes anything. Every time a new distro comes out that uses systemd there's like ten people waiting in the wings to say how much it sucks because of that reason alone. It turns away users and worse... developers have quit key projects because they're so tired of being abused. We need to keep these people happy- they're who we depend on. And again, this week, in our most public forum, when we should be talking about new technologies and the future to make people realize that open source brings happiness and freedom, we're calling each other morons and questioning each other's sanity and making our movement look like a bunch of fools.
My challenge for everyone that's unhappy with systemd is to be just as vocal in praising some distro that shares their views instead of being so negative about one that doesn't. That's what's going to accomplish something. If people want a developer who might say fork network-manager if it suddenly requires systemd, they need to convince a developer that it's worth the effort. That's done by building up the BSDs, or Slack, or Gentoo, not by screaming at other developers.
55 • Debian (by MoreGee on 2015-05-05 02:58:23 GMT from North America)
I spent way too much time with the New Debian recently and the problems all seem to stem from the WM specific CD versions. The Net install without a WM is fine, so servers and people that like the command line are fine. The XFCE/LXDE specific install CDs use a strange WM that does not drop back to VESA driver and the text is missing or garbled. I have also seen scan lines and lines in the windows boxes with rounded and shaded corners. You can get XFCE working if you install the KDE with XFCE and choose the KDE WM as the default.
On install on some machines the guided partition software only detects one partion on the drive and reports it as FAT32, it will also do it on Ubuntu 15.04 on the same machine.
Jessie, good call on the updater, I could not figure out why it kept asking for the install DVD.
56 • Yet another init system (by backwoodsrevolution on 2015-05-05 03:40:08 GMT from Oceania)
just found this on the net:
'“System Docker,”...is responsible for initiating system services, such as udev, DHCP and the console...it takes the place of the init system, such as sysvinit or systemd... [it] manages all of the system services as Docker containers. RancherOS eliminates the need for complex init systems like systemd...[since it and system docker] both attempt to manage control groups.' http://rancher.com/rancher-os/
WTF? we've only just got used to systemd taking over - and now there's a docker-based init wanting to take even more control. This is bull****! Now we're going to have to create yet another Debian fork to combat this. This fork will be called "devtwuu" (Debian without system docker). It will be developed by even older veteran coders than "devuan" - from even deeper in the Canadian woods than them - and with even longer beards, and holier (& dirtier) singlets, and using even OLDER computers. So these guys really mean business! Please support us and help STOP THE ROT OF THESE ROGUE INIT SYSTEMS TRYING TO BOOT THE HELL OUT OF OUR BELOVED LINUX!!
57 • friendly fire (by Bill on 2015-05-05 06:24:27 GMT from Oceania)
@54 - Tim you make some excellent points!
58 • no 'slippery slope' arguments please (by M.Z. on 2015-05-05 06:52:34 GMT from Planet Mars)
@47 & 54
The thing that seems to be ignored in these arguments is the fact that this core worry of many of the most anti-systemd folks is the fact that arguments like #47s are based on a logical fallacy called the slippery slope argument. It's like saying that because public transportation is government owned it will lead to socialism & the end of private capital. I've heard that before & thought was particularly nuts give how Wall Street is both capitalism central & in public transit central (New York City). I really don't see how this systemd creep is all that different. So a few apps here & there begin to require systemd, if enough people don't like it they'll just fork the apps. I think many of the most important apps are cross platform anyway & I know that Firefox & LibreOffice will continue to ship Windows versions even though MS will never adopt systemd. There is a hard requirement for many of the biggest programs in open source to have some support across multiple platforms, & systemd is only on Linux. I really see no evidence of any sort of giant looming threat, just conspiracy theories & logical fallacies. See wikipedia on the slippery slope:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Is this systemd stuff really anything other than an annoyance for a few vocal users on a certain distros? I seriously doubt it.
59 • Support freedom (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2015-05-05 07:08:00 GMT from Europe)
I think that those who are aware that systemd is a political manoeuvre and a Troy horse to take control of Linux, should start supporting the few free distros that still resist. So, please, start donating, packaging, developing, translating, etc., to make PCLinuxOS, Gentoo, Funtoo, Slackware, CRUX, Devuan, etc., better. The only hope for Linux is that we make any of this distros or a set of them popular enough to be taken into account when it comes to drivers support, etc.
Otherwise, BSD will be our only option... Or GNU Hurd...
60 • debian (by greg on 2015-05-05 07:39:09 GMT from Europe)
what I don't like about Debian is their won't fix attitude.
there was a big that showed partition in number rather than the usual sda1. this affected quite a few other applications that gave out fake errors to logs because of it.
a fix was provided. it's a simple line. doesn't affect stability or anything. it was first confirmed and then rejected as won't fix now will fix in next version. and when next version discussion reached this bug it was again won't fix.
61 • @51 (by ramone515 on 2015-05-05 09:46:34 GMT from Europe)
"The problems are too numerous to to list completely, but there isn't even basic minimization & maximization functionality that all desktop users expect built into the DE by default."
And who tells you that "all desktop users" expect minimize & maximize? All Windows and ex-Windows users maybe, but see other enviroments like OS X or even old GNOME with multiple workspaces support. I hate taskbars and minimizing, especially when I am working and have over 20+ windows open, I can switch focus much easier with GNOME's Overview mode without having to try and read the correct title in half a dozen file manager minimized windows or trying to remember in which workspace that window is.
And the whole think about GNOME having a "smartphone" interface amuses me. Keyboard is a must to use GNOME 3!
62 • 61 • @51 (by mandog on 2015-05-05 17:19:05 GMT from South America)
Gnome 3 does have min/Max funtionability either with buttons or mouse clicks what it does not have installed by default in most distros is Gome-Tweak-tool so you can enable them and other settings.
63 • Maximize and Minimize (by Martin on 2015-05-05 17:32:34 GMT from Europe)
I agree completely with ramone515. I'd just like to add that Gnome does of course support maximization and minimization. Every Gnome distro I ever used shipped Gnome Tweak Tool, which contains the option to restore minimize and maximize buttons to all your windows. Takes one minute at most. The reason those buttons aren't shown by default is because they aren't needed. You can trigger maximization with a simple double click to the title bar, and Gnome's dynamic workspaces offer a very elegant alternative to get windows out of sight easily.
64 • TAILS_anonymity_and_stability...to_Arch_freedom_security_and_entropy (by k on 2015-05-05 19:01:41 GMT from Europe)
This is partly a response to jaws222's much appreciated recommendation of Antergos and Manjaro [comment 27]. I have been wondering, but not expecting. Not sure how secure TAILS is, but for anonymity, usability and stability, it is masterful, really. We'll hang on to this uSD installation with persistence until 'it's done'. Super gift from TAILS developers and supporters. BUT, there are constraints. Debian Jessie offers more freedom and enjoyment without compromising security, Mint's Betsy much more user-friendliness, but perhaps compromises are made, you know. I will not be constrained by/in ANY package. Linus's open (source) gift offers unlimited potential and freedom, that is represented by Arch Linux. With Arch, the user is 'thoroughly' interactively educated in the seeding and growth of a Linux operating system, 'building' all they would use and enjoy on the most minimalist 'bleeding-edge' rolling release. It is highly unstable, a changling of sorts. It comes secure by default, shut-off from the worldwide web, like a fetus, and you are not able to develop (build) or do much without learning. That is the rem acu tetigisti of Arch Linux, you have to learn communicating with your operating system, LOTS of practice and patience, like with a child, BEFORE you realize why you started on this journey. Any other will be as child's play. Have fun.
65 • Gnome stuff (by M.Z. on 2015-05-05 19:48:03 GMT from Planet Mars)
So somehow a UI with giant launcher buttons isn't smartphone inspired? What about click & drag to unlock? The fact that these smartphone touches are integrated into a UI that otherwise requires a keyboard is an excellent example of the problem with Gnome 3. It has been breaking standard desktop functionality since version 3 came out & is a plainly poor choice for a default DE. There is little that Gnome 3 does that couldn't have either been integrated into a more traditional DE, or better yet offered as a 'new shell mode' option at login the same way other DEs are offered when you have other desktops installed. The fact that some dsitros offer the 'un break my lousy DE' hack as a standard add-on does not remove the fact that the thing is designed to be broken & lack sane defaults for the vast majority of users. The way to fix Gnome is to build in & offer sane defaults standard, not to let people hack them on after the fact. If you get something out of it good for you, but that doesn't change the fact that Gnome 3 is still bad for a sizable majority of user & has been from the inception of version 3. If I may quote from an review of Gnome 3 that I think still applies to current versions:
"GNOME 3 forces you to do more in order to accomplish the same thing. This is a problem, period.
...
The Takeaway
Using GNOME Shell is an exercise in supreme frustration. After spending the first month with this interface, I wanted to crawl into a corner and die. That's right. Month. Coming from someone who changes OSes with the same frequency that most people change clothes, the learning curve associated with GNOME 3 is steep."
From these two parts of the same review:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-11.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-28.html
I have felt much the same way every time I've used Gnome 3 & maintain that there are fundamental flaws in the basic design. While such projects & options should exist it was a bad idea to replace Gnome 2 with the new version & I think its a bad idea to roll Gnome 3 as a default UI for any project trying to appeal to general Linux users. Gnome 3 could be good for specialty distros or as an alternative option to real desktops, but for most users it is a bad choice. The way I see it Gnome 2 was a perfectly decent DE & any project that used it by default was probably trying to appeal at least a little to general users. The massive contrast with Gnome 3 makes Gnome 3 a bad default for any dsitro that ran Gnome 2 as a default, & it makes me both sad & disappointed every time I see a big player like Debian or Fedora roll with Gnome 3 as a default. It makes to sense to use this weird new thing just because its still called Gnome, if anything offer it as a prominent alternative to something that is better for the bulk of users.
66 • 65 • Gnome stuff (by mandog on 2015-05-05 21:08:46 GMT from South America)
You must use a different Gnome3 on Planet Mars than we use here on Planet Earth Lol,
Gnome3 is one of the most productive desktops to use If you can use a keyboard and mouse, Does not work with touch screens mind you. Clean not clutter no gimmicks, but then if you just want to play all day I suggest Enlightenment, keeps crashing mind you if you get it wrong
67 • 66 • 65 • Gnome stuff (by Ron on 2015-05-05 22:26:04 GMT from North America)
Have another beer.
Me - I dumped Gnome3 after four minutes. Sorry I waited so long.
68 • Debian 8 Desktop Ready (by Rrc on 2015-05-05 23:03:10 GMT from North America)
I downloaded individual ISOs for gnome and KDE versions of Debian 8 then installed them as dual boot in my old Acer Aspire 4736Z. Both DEs played mp4 and mp3 files out of the box. Perhaps the original reviewer would like to see for himself and update his review? Since I like watching movies and YouTube videos, it was a big deal for me to notice that in Debian 8, all movies and YouTube videos play smoothly, without any kind of tearing whatsoever even in full screen in this very same laptop where other new and previous distros had video tearing of varying degrees.
My only gripe was I needed to correct the fstab file since the swap partition was not properly identified. Other than that, Debian 8 has been super! Thanks for those guys who worked hard to release it.
69 • @67 (by Martin on 2015-05-06 09:59:55 GMT from Europe)
And that's your problem right there. Look, nobody denies that Gnome 3 requires some adaptation on the user's part. The point is that for many people who give it a chance and use it the way it was designed to be used, the shell's design will rapidly grow on them. If you dumped Gnome 3 after 4 minutes, as you said, then I can only conclude that you never gave it that chance. You saw that it was different, had to be used in a different way than what you're used to, and you immediately threw it away. Fair enough, some people just don't want to change their habits. But please don't claim that this is an argument against Gnome 3. If you dumped it after 4 minutes, then the problem is obviously at your end.
70 • Gnome (by jaws222 on 2015-05-06 11:40:39 GMT from North America)
IMO Gnome and Unity are the worst DE's out there, but what Antergos did with Gnome is pretty amazing. It is actually usable and looks pretty good too. Check it out if you can.
71 • @69 (by far2fish on 2015-05-06 12:06:01 GMT from Europe)
Gnome 3 is certainly aquired taste. I was one of those devoted Gnome2 users, and thought Gnome 3 was the worst thing since the plague,
Last year I forced myself to use nothing but Gnome 3 for a couple of months, and now it is my favorite DE.
72 • GNOME and other environments (by Jesse on 2015-05-06 12:16:47 GMT from North America)
While I think four minutes to probably too short a time to evaluate a new technology, I disagree with the implied idea that a person will grow to like a new technology given enough time. With GNOME Shell, for example, the more I use it the more it becomes clear it's designed for a different workflow/setup than what I have. It may work wonderfully for others, but GNOME doesn't line up with what I do or how I do it. More time might give me ways to workaround these problems, but GNOME is never going to be a suitable desktop environment for me.
Which is fine, that is why we have different desktops, they're different tools. Hammers are good for people who need to drive nails, screwdrivers are good for people who turn screws. I wouldn't give a screwdriver to a person who needs to drive nails and tell them to just keep using it and eventually it'll grow on them. They may eventually learn to accurately bash in a nail using the flat of the screwdriver handle, but it's never going to be the right tool for the job.
That's why I welcome a multitude of desktop environments. What suits me may not suit you because we use our computers for different things.
73 • So happy I switched to Funtoo (by SwampRabbit on 2015-05-06 12:36:22 GMT from North America)
The beauty of using GNU/Linux is if you don't like something you can change it, if for some reason you can't change it, then you leave it and find something better for you.
When Ubuntu changed to Unity and started screwing around with desktop search spyware, I chose not to support them anymore. Just went back to using Debian and Linux Mint only.
When Gnome 3 came out, I tried it, didn't like it... moved everything to Xfce.
When I saw the outcome of the Debian alternate init system genocide vote, how certain parties treated senior members, users, etc... I went hopping again.
I landed on Funtoo and after about two months now of it being on multiple servers, desktops, laptops, and HTPCs... I can honestly say I found my new distro. I have real control of my systems, far more than I had with Debian or anything else I used. Plus I am learning many things the proper way now.
Because of this and many other things I made a decent monetary donation to the Funtoo devs, try to get involved on the forums, IRC, and help with the wiki.
I am actually happy to get involved with their community, their distro, etc. I have not felt that from a GNU/Linux distro in a long time.
I never got involved with making a fuss over things like systemd, Gnome 3, Unity, etc, etc. In fact in 10 years of reading comments, this is the first time I posted on Distrowatch.
As others have stated already, there is nothing stopping you from taking your time and money and moving it to another DE, distro, whatever. I did and I put the fun back into computing for myself.
74 • Post #73 (by Carlos on 2015-05-06 13:02:04 GMT from Europe)
^ Great post.
75 • @70 (by ramone515 on 2015-05-06 13:59:13 GMT from Europe)
Can you elaborate on what Antergos did with GNOME 3? Other than their nice Shell and Icon themes it looks pretty much stock to me.
76 • Snappy packages (by Johannes on 2015-05-06 14:56:07 GMT from Europe)
One of the most important announcements this week (apart from Debian 8) was Ubuntu's switch to Snappy packages. However it remained uncommented!
I wonder how much energy Canonical is loosing spreading its energy on so many projects. How great would be Ubuntu today if Canonical had invested money and man hours in improving the existing - instead of spending it on black holes like Mir and other new developments... and now snappy packages!
Nothing against new things, but stability and community support is the key on the long term. In my opinion, Linux Mint is showing the path with a consistent and 'touchable' progress.
All the best to Ubuntu!
77 • Shiny and new doesn't always mean better (by cykodrone on 2015-05-06 15:33:48 GMT from North America)
Gimmicks and gadgets may have a short term novelty effect but in the long run all fluff and little substance apps or DEs will fade away, there will be the appropriate backlash when inadequacies, vulnerabilities or spying, etc are discovered. AFAIC, things like Gnome and systemd will only cause a renaissance of GNU, which can't come soon enough.
People need to be reminded a big customer of the corporation behind a certain controversial init is the US army, who are joined at the hip to the NSA. Ponder that while think about how your system logging and log files are ambiguous and why that 'init' needs to control everything on your system, your network, your webcam, your storage volumes, everything. That's not anti use propaganda, that's fact, you make up your own mind, I have.
78 • Gnome 3 (by Corbin Rune on 2015-05-06 15:49:46 GMT from North America)
I wonder how many of the folk unsatisfied with Gnome 3 have tried Cinnamon at all. IIRC, the two have the same (or at least very similar) tech bases, but different approaches of how to *use* the tech.
My only personal concerns with Gnome 3 are that:
1. Like the early KDE 4, you can argue they changed too much, too fast.
2. It still seems wonky as heck on ATI graphics sets. At least that I've run into personally.
79 • @75 (by jaws222 on 2015-05-06 16:09:54 GMT from North America)
"Can you elaborate on what Antergos did with GNOME 3? Other than their nice Shell and Icon themes it looks pretty much stock to me."
It's a lot more customizable. You can move the dock anywhere you want. Also, they have incorporated more add-ins out-of-the-box as opposed to going to that stupid gnome.org site to load gadgets that eventually crashes the DE. It also moves a lot faster than the Gnome I've tried under Opensuse/Parsix/Pinguy/Ubuntu and some others.
80 • @19 • No Android? @12: (by G. Savage on 2015-05-06 17:05:29 GMT from North America)
Some of us would like DistroWatch to cover mobile OSs also; like Android, Firefox OS, Mer, Tizen, Sailfish OS, and Ubuntu Touch. Windows Phone 10 promises computer-on-a-stick capability, so Apple iOS won't be far behind.
Distrowatches motto is: Put the fun back in computing. Use Linux, BSD. Well, a lot of the fun is now mobile.
I really appreciate the work Jesse and the Gnu-Linux / BSD community do, so I don't want this suggestion perceived as a gripe. I will leave it to them to see if my suggestion is worthwhile to pursue.
81 • Gnome 3 @72 (by Hoos on 2015-05-06 18:35:27 GMT from Asia)
@Jesse, I agree completely.
Sometimes you can give something a fair chance but realise you'll always prefer something else.
I like to try different distros and desktop environments. I have Gnome 3 as part of my Ubuntu Gnome 15.04 and previously Extix 14 installations.
It's ok, but as my comfort zone is more traditional desktop environments and interfaces, it's not my first choice. Yes, I've gotten more used to it, I can add gnome extensions like dash to dock, and I can restore the minimise button with gnome tweak tool. But with my preferences, these are extra steps of work. Further, Files/Nemo is not a file manager I really like. So then PCManFM gets installed and I avoid Files.
I have the beta of OzonOS (Fedora-based) as well, which has a modified Gnome 3 with permanent dock via extensions. Again, it's a little better but that's because it came with the dock already set up. On the other hand, Ozon comes with Gnome-software as the GUI package manager, which is a very puzzling piece of software. When you click on 'check for updates', it downloads all the updates but they are not applied. You have to reboot for the updates to be applied during the verbose part of the boot up. But after the updates are applied, you don't go straight to the login window. No, instead it initiates yet another reboot.
When you multiboot and Ozon isn't the default distro that boots up on reboot (meaning you have to manually select Ozon from the grub menu through 2 reboots every update), it's very annoying.
In the end, I used yum update via terminal instead. No wonder Ubuntu-based Gnome continues using Ubuntu's own software centre and update manager.
If you consider Gnome 3 to include the suite of Gnome applications and tools and not just the desktop interface, then I think there are some strange choices being made by the developers.
I'm still keeping the Ubuntu Gnome partition and trying to get more comfortable with it but it's not my favourite.
82 • Debian v. 8 (by Troy Banther on 2015-05-06 18:37:34 GMT from North America)
I went Microsoft free in October of 2003 and never looked back. After a year or so of trying out various distributions I settled on Debian. I use it every day as a desktop system. No fuss, no muss, no drama. It works on my gear. I also carry around two Debian flash drives. I use these to work on computer systems; mostly repairing Windows machines at my work on campus. Jesse even supported touch screen monitors on the laptops. As always, what works for one person may not work for another.
83 • Debating vs trolling, crediting the people doing the work and freedom of choice (by Not_a_misread on 2015-05-06 22:08:29 GMT from Europe)
Having a debate on wether a UI change in GNOME makes the UI easier to use or harder to use might be constructive, especially if the feedback is given to the GNOME developers or used as ideas for other DEs.
Having a debate of the technical merits of systemd migh supply the systemd project with valuable input. (Though not from less technical users like myself.) The many projects now coming together under the systemd umbrella might also be worth debating from a philosophical and technical viewpoint.
The brilliance of FOSS is that you have a lot of freedom of choice. You could choose for yourself among a myriad of distros and DEs and softwares, and if you don't like any of them, you could fork one that seems good, but not perfect for you or create your own from scratch. As a long time Mac user that has transioned over to Linux in recent years, I appreciate the freedoms of FOSS a lot!
Let's applaud Poettering and team for developing systemd true to their vision and giving it away under a FOSS lisence, but let's also applaud the Devuan team for developing an alternative to Debian for those not convinced of the technical merits of systemd!
Choose whatever you like and state your opinion if you like, but attacking people with other ideas or other tastes is just moronic, adolescent, troll-like behavior. (If Distrowatch imposed a "no comments from users of Windows or OS X"-rule based on browser useragent, you might filter out some FOSS-hating trolls.)
Personally, as a desktop user with limited technical knowledge, I trust the technical committees of the distros I use (Antergos, Ubuntu, Debian) to make sound choices for the underlying technologies and I choose the desktops that I like myself (LXDE and Unity). I get that the systemd debate is more concerned with servers than desktops and that many long time sysadmins are concerned, but personally I haven't even noticed the change.
84 • Freed Open-Source Software is for all… (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-05-06 23:06:27 GMT from North America)
… even users of proprietary distros - much to the chagrin of monopolists. Many such users multi-boot, or use virtual machines (and soon, docked v.m.s?), or use more than one device.
85 • Gnome & Debian (by M.Z. on 2015-05-06 23:27:15 GMT from Planet Mars)
I think a lot of folks have pointed out in this thread that they find shortcomings in Gnome 3 & don't find it to be a good choice for them as a general purpose desktop. I find many of the concepts to be very niche, & on the whole I think Gnome has become a very specialized desktop a bit like this ratpoison window manager I read about on wikipedia. The goal of ratpoison is to let you manage all your apps without the 'rat' or mouse. I find that Gnome 3 seems to want to do things to redefine how the desktop should be used, & like ratpoisn it works entirely different from what the bulk of users are familiar with & what most of them want. I know some people have given it a go & like Gnome 3, but I can't really see how they claim that it is easy to use for most PC users or that it makes much sense as a default for Debian or most mainstream distros. It's great that projects like Gnome & ratpoison are trying new & different things, but these things don't fit what typical users want or make sense as a default DE. I have nothing against Gnome users even if the developers have done a fair amount of annoying things, but I claiming that Gnome is a good default for Debian makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
@68
I've found on Mint KDE that kwin also does much to prevent screen tearing found in other desktops when I stream Netflix or Hulu. KDE makes using HDMI going from my laptop to a TV a far better viewing experience.
@76
I'll only wish Cononical/Ubuntu well after they stop pushing spyware out & hurting unwitting converts. It's bad for users & bad for the reputation of Linux.
86 • @ 85 - I can't really see (by forlin on 2015-05-07 01:37:42 GMT from Europe)
- Gnome & ratpoison are trying new & different things
No. Gnome 3 is 3 years old now. Not New. New is Plasma.
Though, Plasma is more of the same!!! Like going 3 years back in time.
Life is not a time machine.
87 • @85 (by Martin on 2015-05-07 09:22:07 GMT from Europe)
"claiming that Gnome is a good default for Debian makes absolutely no sense whatsoever."
That is your opinion. I disagree with it, and so does the Debian project.
88 • Gnome 3 works ok with touch screens. re 66 (by tim on 2015-05-07 15:53:00 GMT from Europe)
Hi
Gnome 3 works ok on my iconia W500 tablet's touch screen. Or it does with Tumbleweed. Not sure if it's the desktop or the distro though. Or is it the kernel? Can't get plasma to work though.
Like other Tim in post 44 I'm trying to run linux on something obscure so nobody's fault but my own.
89 • Debian Jessie Review (by Abraham Lincoln on 2015-05-07 18:22:55 GMT from Europe)
I respectfully disagree with the reviewer on the point that Debian is not suitable yet for "Desktop" computing. On the other hand beauty of Debian lies in the fact that it can scale from embedded SBCs to HPC clusters seamlessly. I have experimented Ubuntu, Arch, openSuse and Fedora on my Dell Latitude E7440 Ultra-book and none of them even came close to the stability of Debian "Jessie". The peace of mind that "Jessie" has given me since last two weeks is unequivocal. Ubuntu was constantly crashing with "apportresumecheck", Fedora was not resuming WiFi connectivity after the standby mode. OpenSuse was slow as dead in desktop response and Arch kernel 3.19 even refused to recognize my Btrfs partition. Debian MATE is a rock solid extremely stable Linux distro. Excellent documentation, helpful wiki and plenty of forums for quick resolution of the issues. As for the "little" manual work for desktop Linux distro is concerned I would reiterate RMS here: "Its your choice to give up yout freedom and privacy for a little convenience and opt for Windows OR do a "little" extra work and enjoy your unchallenged privacy and unlimited freedom by using GNU/Linux".
90 • Debian 8 DVD sets (by keithpeter on 2015-05-07 20:21:46 GMT from Europe)
Hello All
Debian 8 Review: As other comments mention installing Gnome results in media codec/players ready to go, MATE needs just a little tweaking (I use the guayadeque music player as it is relatively light and has few dependencies).
One point that might be of interest to some: Debian is the only distribution that I know of where it is possible to download a very large selection of packages in the form of a DVD set (usually DVD1, DVD2 and DVD3). You can 'register' the three DVD images with Synaptic and then use Synaptic or the command line package managers to install packages entirely offline. Update DVDs are issued for each minor update of the release. In this way, you can use a machine without an Internet connection and install a significant variety of software from the Main repository.
Don't underestimate the 'bandwidth' of 3 DVDs in the post!
91 • Happy Middle Ground - trying new tech before deciding (by Pearson on 2015-05-07 20:52:43 GMT from North America)
I also agree that merely working with something for a while doesn't necessarily mean that I'll like it. On the other hand, abandoning something before I've had a *chance* to get over "the learning curve" means that I haven't "really used" it -- all I can honestly say is that the learning curve was so steep that I couldn't see that the potential benefits were worth the time and effort.
I think it's probably like learning a second language (I haven't). It may be terribly difficult/awkward to get accustomed to new idioms, ideas, etc. And, many may say that "no one would reasonably want to do that unless they have to". However, there are also many who have said "it was worth the struggle, to finally realize the beauty of the expressions". Or maybe like learning a musical instrument.
I think it's fair to say that if someone "gave up after 4 minutes", they never really gave the tool a real chance. This isn't necessarily wrong -- maybe it just wasn't a good fit for them. But, I don't think that person has earned the right to say that the tool isn't right for anyone.
92 • more Gnome & DE thoughts (by M.Z. on 2015-05-07 22:19:10 GMT from Planet Mars)
@86
Well KDE 4 which is basically the modern KDE Plasma DE actually came out 7 years ago so it is still older than Gnome 3; however, it has continually evolved & has integrated many features into it that are unseen anywhere else to my knowledge. I have a search & launch mode on my desktop 4 that integrates much of the functionality seen in Gnome 3's launcher mode as well as interfaces seen on smartphones like android. I also have my other 3 desktops set to desktop grid with various launchers & widgets like folder view widgets that show my 'desktop' & /home directory locations, but if I wanted to I could go the traditional route & just show the 'desktop' folder like Windows & Cinnamon do. I could also use activities to create new groups of desktops or set a huge number of keyboard short cuts to let me change how I use the desktop. I honestly can't see how anyone who has given any recent KDE release a real try could say that KDE is somehow moving backward, it merely adds the flexibility to act like traditional DEs into a more powerful modern framework. Can you explain to me how creating the 7+ desktop layouts, Netbook workspace mode, & activities changer is anything other that innovative & new? If you had made the comment about Cinnamon I could see what you mean, but it makes no sense if applied to KDE.
As for how Gnome is trying to change the desktop, well in the past 3 years they haven't offered me anything that seems like a good easy to use desktop out of the box. There are a lot of new ideas for those who seek to wrap their heads around the new Gnome, but I don't think it's all that useful for the rest of us.
@87
Well while we're stating the blatantly obvious, the entire thread is nothing but opinions but I have yet to see anyone give a good reason why Gnome makes sense as a default DE for most desktop users. I've see platitudes from Gnome fans about how things can be tweaked of modified. I've also heard talk of how if you can really dig in you could get something out of Gnome 3, but nothing to convince me that Gnome is a good default for most users. I'm glad that you & others have gotten something good out of the whole paradigm shift that Gnome has presented users with, but I don't see why you think it makes a sensible default.
93 • @92 • more Gnome & DE thoughts (by mandog on 2015-05-08 00:06:35 GMT from South America)
Its not why the Gnome does not make sense as a default DE for most desktop users,
Its why does KDE/XFCE make any more sense as a default desktop, Just accept users are not sheep and can make up there own minds what they feel comfortable using.
I used KDE for years it is no better for my needs than Openbox Unless I want to play for hrs setting up different desktop layouts, but to me what's the point as I don't want to copy Windows or cinnamon, have spinning desktops, I just need to work within seconds of turning my machine on time is money and wasting time deciding which desktop to use today is not on for me. So please explain why KDE is better than any desktop for the average user, Why not just say You prefer KDE as its what you are comfortable using, and leave it as that accept it. Not try to go into detail why YOU think everybody should follow you like sheep because you don't like something.
94 • Debian and GNOME 3. (by Kubelik on 2015-05-08 02:23:12 GMT from Europe)
@ 91. I think you have some good points.
# GNOME 3 is more than the Shell. There is also the fallback mode: Classic. It is, well, more classic. Main problem there is that the extensions are not always up to date.
# Minimize/maximize: Well: rightclick on the titlebar>minimize, or doubleclick on titlebar and you have a maximized window.
# non-free hardware stuff. Years ago, after a long discussion, the Debian project decided not to carry non-free hardware stuff as default. If you need that you have to download, unpack and put it on a USB-key. If you are told, during the installation, that your machine needs a certain non-free package to work properly and that you should insert the USB-key, then you just do that. And all is ok.
# To get the more tainted stuff, codecs etc: Go to "Software and updates" or Synaptic>Settings>Archives and tick the boxes Contrib and Non-free. Or you can go to the lovely, colorful nano: As root: nano /etc/apt/sources.list an add contrib and non-free.
You can also just download the unofficial live-DVD with the unfree stuff included.
In nano you can also switch to the new testing. Just change jessie or stable to testing or stretch.
# Maintaining the deprecated consolekit might be a job for systemd haters. People loving the old days should stay with Unix or BSD. Linux is not BSD and GNU is not Unix. Trying to fork Debian in order to avoid logind is a joke.
# I have 8 distros with different desktops. After a little while getting used to GNOME Shell it just flies and is much more convenient than the rest. Since I have two hands I use both of them.
95 • @ 91 • Happy Middle Ground (by Rev_Don on 2015-05-08 02:23:54 GMT from North America)
The idea that someone who only gave up after only 4 minutes means they never really gave the tool a chance is only partially correct. You can easily know within a few minutes if that tool is worth the effort to invest the necessary time to become familiar and comfortable enough with.
For example, when KDE4 was first released I know within a few minutes that it wasn't something I wanted to invest time with. I don't feel that way now as it has become much better overall, and doesn't overpower and bog down fairly current hardware as it did 7 years ago. While it isn't my preferred DE, newer releases that are properly configured are something that I can fairly easily become comfortable with.
Gnome 3, on the other hand (as well as Unity) are the exact opposite. I haven't seen any positive improvement at all. In fact, once they took the 2D capabilities out of Gnome 3 it became even worse ito me.
That is probably (at least partially) due to preferring a somewhat ready to go out of the box distro instead of a build my own type of person. I don't spend days and days getting it setup just so. I tend to tweak a few things, install the apps I want, and then use the computer. I don't want to spend all of my time installing, configuring, and tweaking it like a lot of Linux users do. I've tried the minimal Net install thing and simply do not have the time, nor the inclination for that. I don't install interim releases either (as far as I'm concerned they are nothing but Betas) because I don't want to have to re-install, reconfigure, and re-tweak every 6 months. I pick LTS releases and use them until support runs out or an application I need won't run on it any longer.
You can call me lazy if you want (you would be wrong though), but I want to use my system, not play around with it. Because of that, if I can't perform fairly simple tasks with a distro or DE right out of the box then I know the learning curve is more than I want to take on. I'll leave that for the tinkerers. Give me XFCE, Mate, Gnome 2, or even LXDE and I'm happy as when they do change something, they normally change it for the better, not the other way around like Gnome 3 and Unity.
That;s how I see it and I resent anyone telling me I'm wrong to feel that way. You are well within your rights to feel differently about it and I'll defend your right to do wo. Just don't trample my right to feel the way I do about it.
96 • Gnome 3 (by Smellyman on 2015-05-08 03:18:30 GMT from Asia)
I try all new releases of Gnome 3 for quite some time, don't want to short change it because of first impressions. It reminds me of what a crippled, inefficient DE it is.
97 • something other than Gnome as default (by M.Z. on 2015-05-08 04:26:05 GMT from Planet Mars)
@93
I've been talking in circles about KDE in part because people brought the topic up, not necessarily because I thought it was the best possible default DE per say. I would really think any other major DE would be a better default than Gnome is on Debian. I think big Linux projects should put their best foot forward with their default choices, & given that Gnome 3 is a niche player I clearly don't think it makes sense as a default. I know that XFCE was brought up as a default for Debian previously & having used it I would think it would serve most potential Debian users better than Gnome 3. I could also say the same thing for Cinnamon or Mate in addition to KDE.
I know a fair amount of users do their homework before trying a new distro/OS, but the default is most likely to be downloaded & spread around in various other ways & I think a desktop as strange as Gnome is likely to leave a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who tries Debian in a more casual/ informal way without doing heavy research & digging though the download mirrors. I never said anyone had to use KDE or any other desktop, I just don't see why Gnome makes sense as a default. Tell me why something that takes as much work to adapt to/fix as Gnome makes sense as a default for a major project like Debian, don't toss around sheeple accusations. If its so controversial shouldn't it be optional rather than default? I've been trying to keep things more toned with most of my posts (sorry if something earlier offended) & converse about why I think its a bad default, but its still caused a bitter divide in the comments thread. I still don't see any good reasons why Gnome is a sensible default for most users, just a mix of dislike & devotion.
98 • Gnome 3 (by imnotrich on 2015-05-08 04:48:58 GMT from North America)
Gnome 3 and Unity are Linux's Windows 8. Only an insane person believes you can have the same GUI experience across multiple devices, I have never seen a more counterintuitive pile of garbage simultaneously thrust upon computer users. Not ever. I don't know anyone using Gnome or Unity, and my friends running WIndows 8 have all rolled back to a "real" GUI, that makes sense to normal humans.
Gnone's "fallback" or classic mode isn't either, it's a hybrid of Gnome 3 and Gnome 2 and more clunky than windows 3.0.
Currently running Mint 17.1 with Cinnamon, because Mint xfce was too buggy. Many of the same Ubuntu bugs followed straight across to Mint, and Mint added a few more in the process.
FSlint in Mint's repos is broken, will not delete files even when run as root. You have to roll back to a previous version.
Streamtuner2 in Mint's repos is also broken, you set your audio player but Streamtuner2 won't open it. You have to download an updated version of Streamtuner2 from the developer's website.
The Mint installer does not respect your language choice, When you select English language and English keyboard, Mint (as Ubuntu also does) assumes you want everything else in the language/format/spellcheck dictionaries based on your time zone or IP address - FAIL. Just because I'm in MX does not mean I speak Spanish.
Another Ubuntu bug that followed into Mint is that cgminer and bfgminer cannot detect usb devices unless run as root. Adding the plugdev group didn't help.
One Ubuntu bug that didn't follow over to mint involves tumblerd, and that's a godsend because when you're copying videos and photos to a usb device tumblerd will hang and corrupt your ntfs file system. Known bug going back 4 years, still not fixed.
A bug introduced by Mint involves Armory, Bitcoin-QT and Bitcoind. The processes start up fine but Armory can't communicate with them. Kill the processes a few times with the command line and somehow they eventually figure out how to speak to one another.
Cinnamon seems snappy enough, but it has some bugs as well - Windows spontaneously resize themselves horizontally or vertically without being asked, a "snap" feature that cannot be disabled. Firefox also goes into fullscreen mode by itself once in a while. I use a desktop with a mouse and keyboard, not a touchpad or other toy so the only thing I can think of it my webcam saw me blink 3 times every 4 seconds and that trigged the windows to resize (sarcasm).
Please developers, your "default" desktop needs to be the most stable ready to go out of the box experience, easily customizable if the user so desires..but not requiring the user to edit config files or get their fingernails dirty just to make it function. Gnome, Unity, KDE, Windows 8, xfce, FAIL in the usabilty/functionality department. Go back to the drawing board please.
99 • @97 (by far2fish on 2015-05-08 08:10:28 GMT from Europe)
Out of curiosity, what is your basis for saying Gnome is a niche player ?
I have often wondered which were the most popular DEs. The only survey I have seen is the yearly distro survey at reddit, and this survey also cover DE. Last year the survey showed Gnome 3 to be the most popular DE, but also the second most hated DE.
Even though we disagree on the usefulness of Gnome E I guess we can agree it is controversial ? :)
100 • The best DE (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2015-05-08 13:37:04 GMT from Europe)
The best DE is or will be LXQt. Still at version 0.9 but as soon as it reaches 1.0 all the other will be ashamed ;)
It has everything to succeed:
1.- Classic layout.
2.- Lightweight.
3.- No-nonsense defaults.
4.- Qt's broad developer base, reliability, versatility and portability.
5.- Qt was conceived with mobile devices in mind from inception.
I am pretty sure its developers will be smart enough to provide two separate versions: one for the desktop (the one we already have) and one for touch-screen devices.
I profited from some major issues with LXDE in Lubuntu LTS to try LXQt and I am keeping it in all my computers (except the one running PCLinuxOS).
101 • @100 • The best DE (by G. Savage on 2015-05-08 14:15:29 GMT from North America)
I really like XFCE, it's my no 2 after Cinnamon; but I have to say, I am quite eager to try LXLE with LXQt when it arrives.
102 • niche DEs (by M.Z. on 2015-05-08 19:55:23 GMT from Planet Mars)
@99
Well let's be honest here, all versions of Linux & BSD are niche players in the desktop market. I'd say prior to version 8 Windows more or less defined the mainstream DE while Mac offered an alternative that most consumers were aware of. The desktops for Linux have mostly followed the general outlines of what Win & Mac did while offering a few different enhancements & features along the way. They generally all used to offer things like better theme options & new functionality with virtual desktops, window shading etc. that were useful features not seen in Windows. They offered they same basic mainstream desktop functionality other users were used to with improvements, making the switch over very easy for potential converts. Then along came Gnome 3 & out went all the conventional thinking & the general purpose DE that users of Gnome 2 & other desktops were familiar with. From the last poll on Linux DEs I can remember I think KDE/Plasma retook the lead among all Linux desktops recently, which was in part because Gnome split in 4 separate directions after version 3 came out. Mint created Cinnamon for traditional desktop users because Gnome 3 failed to deliver the sort of easy to transition to DE that it's users wanted, the Mate team began reworking old versions of Gnome, & Ubuntu adopted Unity.
I really can't make any definitive comments on market share & I don't know how reliable any polls on the subject are, but we all know that Linux is inherently a bit of a niche desktop product. Now add to that the fact that Gnome tossed out the traditional desktop & tried to create a new way of interacting & you have an inherently niche DE. The four way split proved that not everyone liked how Gnome was acting & surely pulled some users away, especially give the market share of Mint & Ubuntu. The split provides further evidence that Gnome was becoming ever more niche after version 3 was released. Following the release of Gnome 3 Windows 8 came out with a hybrid of desktop & smartphone elements that was similar in spirit to the design of Gnome 3, & from what I can tell it was the most spectacular flop in the history of Windows. I know the failure of Win 8 doesn't say anything definitive about Gnome, but I find the Gnome design to look like the more radical of the two & both share ideas like pop up menus in hot corners & a full screen launcher mode for a main menu. There are differences to be sure, the hot corner in Win 8 hides settings while in Gnome 3 it has both the menu & window switcher; however, they share a smartphone like design philosophy & the failure of Win 8 shows a general consumer dislike of such designs.
I think the change in design philosophy alone might well have been enough to call Gnome 3 niche given the market share of Linux, but add to that the split in the Gnome user base & the failure of the the stylistically similar Win 8, Gnome is almost certainly a niche player. I think there has been a very rough & controversy ridden transition for Gnome between version 2 & 3, & that marks the line between major mainstream DE in the niche Linux market, to a niche player in that niche Linux market. I really can't see how Gnome can be anything other than niche give the max potential market share of any Linux DE, the radical new design philosophy & the reaction against similar sweeping changes in Win 8, & the 4 way split in caused by Gnome 3. Given all these factors & all the controversy surrounding such sweeping changes to the desktop I see Gnome 3 as the very definition of a niche desktop. Whether you love or hate Gnome 3 they way it tried to redefine the desktop & the factors surrounding that redefinition both put it solidly in the camp of a niche DE. This niche status is a core reason I can't see how anything like Gnome 3 would make a sensible default for most users of Debian or similar big Linux projects. I know Gnome 3 has grown on some people, but I don't see why they can't step back & see it from that overarching perspective, or perhaps provide a good argument to the contrary. Actually I really can't see how any good argument to the contrary could be made, though some very smart people in the Gnome project sure were able to rationalize some very odd & sweeping design changes.
103 • Desktop Environments (by JT on 2015-05-08 22:17:21 GMT from North America)
@102 You said it best, Linux on the Desktop is inherently a niche desktop product. That being said, I don't think there would be a DE that would adequately cover everything a user could want in a DE. Especially in the FOSS world.
KDE and it's endless customization would be too over-the-top for a large portion of general users, and XFCE/MATE/LXDE aren't considered 'beautiful' enough for general users. GNOME doesn't offer enough customization for some users, and would require them to change their workflow (and quite dramatically, depending on what you're used to and where you're going). Cinnamon/Unity (and maybe Pantheon) are the only ones that would appeal to vast amounts of users. Although, Unity has issues in being tied to Ubuntu (there are efforts to get it to other mainstream distros, that failed, and Makulu now has a Unity port). Pantheon is really the same, being tied to elementaryOS. The only distro I've used that offered Cinnamon, other than Linux Mint, was Korora. I know Arch has it, but I don't like to use Arch (their idea of simplicity isn't the same as mine).
And I don't really think it's fair to compare GNOME to Windows 8. After the release of Win8.1, the desktop experience on Windows was much more polished, without changing the core design. GNOME v3 took a few extra releases to get things right from a design perspective. Both were jarring changes, but Windows 8(.1) was less so. It kept the 'desktop' piece mostly the same. GNOME changed everything altogether, leaving very little things the same.
The issue with GNOME v3 is that most users expect some sort of bottom panel with open windows. Windows, Mac, GNOME v2, KDE, etc. all have that feature, and its much different* to work without it.
I could also argue that mobile-OS look/feel isn't a necessarily negative thing for some users. A lot of those users, however, are much younger (like myself) and are used to the mobile-OS interface. Using Win95 as a child, then WinXP, then Win7 in High School, now Linux(KDE/GNOME/XFCE) & Win8, the quick progression of UI design really doesn't bother me one bit. Going from MATE/GNOME v2 to GNOME v3 to KDE to XFCE isn't really jarring to me (however I know a lot of people find it very jarring); then again, I do it almost daily for the sake of amusement (along with multi-booting 5 different OSs).
Personally, I'm a KDE user, so the usage I get out of GNOME/MATE/etc only lasts a few days, maybe a week at most, before I go back to wanting to redesign the entire interface. While I usually install GNOME and XFCE beside KDE (because I like to fiddle with things and often break things), they don't get all that much use.
People are different, and want different things. GNOME and Unity have large user bases (of mostly general users, who don't know, or care, one way or another) for a reason. Some people prefer GNOME or Unity, and they simply work better with it.
*I say different instead of difficult, because I find that things are rarely difficult once you learn what to do. Tedious might be a better word, and it can be.
104 • Hardware and DE (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-05-09 00:19:46 GMT from North America)
A great many computers were sold with Windows 8.0, without touchscreens, or even touchpads. This omission should be laid at the feet of the hardware vendors, where it belongs - just like any refusal to give the customer control over which software to use.
105 • Debian 8 (by kc1di on 2015-05-09 09:10:50 GMT from North America)
Just want to say the comments have been interesting to read this week. I've been using Debian 8 since it was released as stable. And have to say it makes a great desktop once you get it configured the way you want it. That can be a challenge, but took only a couple hours. And has been working fine ever since. I use the XFCE desktop and like it's workflow and culpability just fine. never been a fan of Gnome 3, Mate is fine also, but just am use to XFCE. Have used KDE many times and always seem to look for something else after a bit. I have not problem with any of the desktops really, just seem to always come back to XFCE eventually. There will never be an end to the DE wars, People tend to get passionate for what they personally like. All I can say is Chill a bit. each DE has it's positive and negative points. The question is which ones are you willing to live with :)
As for systemd Seems there is a lot of resistance to it. but much of that is based upon fictions not fact. my opinion is a wait and see attitude and use what works for now.
Thanks Debian for a great release by the way !
106 • Debian (by Jordan on 2015-05-09 18:29:07 GMT from North America)
Yes, Debian, the tried and true foundation of so many Linux distros. What a history (even its name!).
I have the 8 on my old Toshiba and tweaked away for a few days here and there and ended up with Mate as my default environment. I like to brag about doing the work myself, but it is not work at all when you think back to so much that had to be done in the cli days!
I have Mint on an HP and Windows 8.1 on this HP at home. Debian is the one I look forward to using each day.
107 • changing software (by happy motherPC day on 2015-05-10 02:48:42 GMT from Oceania)
There are many init systems: sysvinit, mudur, runit, openrc, upstart, systemd, system docker, etc. Just like DE's and packaging systems they are changing since nothing in software stays the same for long. Systemd will eventually morph into something else - so need to get upset over it.
Maybe Jessie could give a review of some init systems - pros and cons. Since virtual containers are popular now, system docker sounds the most interesting.
108 • @104 - Drinking Windows 8 Koolaid? (by Ben Myers on 2015-05-10 07:08:24 GMT from North America)
Please, let's not blame the hardware manufacturers for unpopularity of Windows 8. Microsoft continues to struggle to this day with the two decidedly different markets for the Windows OS: business and consumer. Microsoft foolishly pushed Windows 8 upgrades. People bought the cheap (was it $40?) upgrades. I still have mine. Never used it. Then people installed the upgrade only to be confronted by the Metro interface, something never seen on a Windows desktop or laptop before. People rightly criticized its tiled desktop design as being counter-productive for doing real work. Microsoft tried to bring the tablet operational metaphor to a computing environment and users long since used to the File-Edit-etc drop-down menu interface and a Start button. The tablet operational metaphor is fine for a highly portable device, but not for the business office. So businesses threw rotten eggs at Windows 8, rather than falling in love with it.
If one blames the hardware manufacturers for not having adequate hardware for Windows 8, then one needs to blame Microsoft all the more for releasing a product for which there was inadequate hardware support and for insufficiently evangelizing (that's what they call it) the need for touch hardware to run Metro.
But let's back off and look at this from a broader perspective. Do you think people just walk right in and begin using a drastically different desktop environment without any training? Sure, early adopters and people who want to live on the bleeding edge will jump right in and eventually become productive. But those people are even more scarce than America's famous 1%. How about they are 0.1% of all computer users? 0.01% percent? No matter. 99% of the people who use a computer for workaday tasks need serious training on how to use the damnable Windows 8 (or 8.1). I am in the 1%, but it is a serious waste of my productivity to use Windows 8. I am not masochistic.
Even after several years of use, Windows 8 has at least one serious conflict with Microsoft's very own Office. One of my clients uses Office 2010 on a Windows 8.1 system. He clicked by mistake on the brain-dead Mail APP. Oops! His Outlook file was no longer accessible to Outlook, locked out. Solution? Uninstall the Mail APP.
Suffice it to say that Microsoft failed with Windows 8 due to poor design, poor implementation and poor integration with mainstream Windows applications (not the toy apps).
109 • The nich and the 1% (by forlin on 2015-05-10 08:58:52 GMT from Europe)
Market share cannot be a measure of it all. Maserati is supposedly a very good car, yet its market share is way far of that of Toyota's. Even that both were free (as in beer, of course), Maserati would have running overhead costs not affordable to all. Like Linux: not installed by default in shops, lack of some drivers, applications, a.s.o. Still, Linux is a Maserati!
Regarding Gnome3 vs others: it's a matter of personal taste. But Shall it's far from being a niche DE. Last year Linuxquestions survey (557 votes), Plasma won by far. Lifehacker survay(11.239 votes), Shell won by far.
Up to Gnome3 I used the "classic": bottom bar with menu, windows, tray. First feeling with Gnome3 was almost as bad as Kde4 was to KDE3. So, I diverted for a while, but kept an eye on it. Then, it improved I returned and got used to it. For me it's OK, today. So much good that trying to go back to "classic" is a failed adapt effort. May be not with others, sure. Each case is a case.
110 • Debian as my desktop OS (by Plamen on 2015-05-10 14:25:01 GMT from Europe)
I use it since 2010 and love it, GNOME2. On my Thinkpads and 2 desktops. I set up Jessie Stable from netinstall with MATE (it was a pleasant surprise to find MATE as a DE option in the installer). Thank you so much to all.
A screenshot http://postimg.org/image/elp3w46g5/
p.s.: GNOME3 - I tried it several times with different versions, it's not for me (I love MATE) and it's too heavy (hdd's were on fire, desktop and mouse became irresponsive several times a day and the time needed to recover and do anything was about 15minutes)
111 • 108 • @104 - Heap all blame on favorite scapegoat? (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-05-10 15:09:33 GMT from North America)
Don't blame hardware vendors for putting a touchscreen-dependent OS on hardware without touch? Really? When alternatives were clearly available, supported for years? When OS vendors clearly noted (even "evangelized"), up-front, the need for touch-enabled hardware?
Check your own beverage…
112 • @111 - More to the story (by Ben Myers on 2015-05-10 22:38:18 GMT from North America)
Microsoft's history with software releases is that as soon as the new release hits the street, the old one vanishes from store shelves (on-line or brick-and-mortar). With Windows 8, it was a little bit different, because the general public, trade press pundits and businesses all were taken aback by the very different appearance and how-to-use of Windows 8. So Windows 7 remained available for some time, sometimes as a Microsoft-sanctioned downgrade, sometimes due to contracts between Microsoft and name-brand vendor.
In particular, Lenovo moved to the top of the pack with the largest market share. How did they do that? By continuing to sell, sell, sell Windows 7 systems.
Touch screens on desktop systems have a long way to go to achieve more general purpose use, because people are accustomed to using keyboards and mice for typical business (or home) office tasks. If one accepts this premise, the only way Windows 8 can be usable as a desktop system is if one deep-sixes all the counter-productive Metro tiles.
To put it all differently, Microsoft's timing for widespread use of a touch-screen enabled OS was abysmal. Hence its reversion back to the start button with Windows 8.1 (earlier with 3rd party Classic Shell) and betaware Windows 10. Is this not Microsoft itself (not openly) admitting to a serious strategic error?
Number of Comments: 112
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| • Issue 1113 (2025-03-17): MocaccinoOS 1.8.1, how to contribute to open source, Murena extends on-line installer, Garuda tests COSMIC edition, Ubuntu to replace coreutils with Rust alternatives, Chimera Linux drops RISC-V builds |
| • Issue 1112 (2025-03-10): Solus 4.7, distros which work with Secure Boot, UBports publishes bug fix, postmarketOS considers a new name, Debian running on Android |
| • Issue 1111 (2025-03-03): Orbitiny 0.01, the effect of Ubuntu Core Desktop, Gentoo offers disk images, elementary OS invites feature ideas, FreeBSD starts PinePhone Pro port, Mint warns of upcoming Firefox issue |
| • Issue 1110 (2025-02-24): iodeOS 6.0, learning to program, Arch retiring old repositories, openSUSE makes progress on reproducible builds, Fedora is getting more serious about open hardware, Tails changes its install instructions to offer better privacy, Murena's de-Googled tablet goes on sale |
| • Issue 1109 (2025-02-17): Rhino Linux 2025.1, MX Linux 23.5 with Xfce 4.20, replacing X.Org tools with Wayland tools, GhostBSD moving its base to FreeBSD -RELEASE, Redox stabilizes its ABI, UBports testing 24.04, Asahi changing its leadership, OBS in dispute with Fedora |
| • Issue 1108 (2025-02-10): Serpent OS 0.24.6, Aurora, sharing swap between distros, Peppermint tries Void base, GTK removinglegacy technologies, Red Hat plans more AI tools for Fedora, TrueNAS merges its editions |
| • Issue 1107 (2025-02-03): siduction 2024.1.0, timing tasks, Lomiri ported to postmarketOS, Alpine joins Open Collective, a new desktop for Linux called Orbitiny |
| • Issue 1106 (2025-01-27): Adelie Linux 1.0 Beta 6, Pop!_OS 24.04 Alpha 5, detecting whether a process is inside a virtual machine, drawing graphics to NetBSD terminal, Nix ported to FreeBSD, GhostBSD hosting desktop conference |
| • Issue 1105 (2025-01-20): CentOS 10 Stream, old Flatpak bundles in software centres, Haiku ports Iceweasel, Oracle shows off debugging tools, rsync vulnerability patched |
| • Issue 1104 (2025-01-13): DAT Linux 2.0, Silly things to do with a minimal computer, Budgie prepares Wayland only releases, SteamOS coming to third-party devices, Murena upgrades its base |
| • Issue 1103 (2025-01-06): elementary OS 8.0, filtering ads with Pi-hole, Debian testing its installer, Pop!_OS faces delays, Ubuntu Studio upgrades not working, Absolute discontinued |
| • Issue 1102 (2024-12-23): Best distros of 2024, changing a process name, Fedora to expand Btrfs support and releases Asahi Remix 41, openSUSE patches out security sandbox and donations from Bottles while ending support for Leap 15.5 |
| • Issue 1101 (2024-12-16): GhostBSD 24.10.1, sending attachments from the command line, openSUSE shows off GPU assignment tool, UBports publishes security update, Murena launches its first tablet, Xfce 4.20 released |
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| • Issue 1096 (2024-11-11): Bazzite 40, Playtron OS Alpha 1, Tucana Linux 3.1, detecting Screen sessions, Redox imports COSMIC software centre, FreeBSD booting on the PinePhone Pro, LXQt supports Wayland window managers |
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| • Issue 1092 (2024-10-14): FunOS 24.04.1, a home directory inside a file, work starts of openSUSE Leap 16.0, improvements in Haiku, KDE neon upgrades its base |
| • Issue 1091 (2024-10-07): Redox OS 0.9.0, Unified package management vs universal package formats, Redox begins RISC-V port, Mint polishes interface, Qubes certifies new laptop |
| • Issue 1090 (2024-09-30): Rhino Linux 2024.2, commercial distros with alternative desktops, Valve seeks to improve Wayland performance, HardenedBSD parterns with Protectli, Tails merges with Tor Project, Quantum Leap partners with the FreeBSD Foundation |
| • Issue 1089 (2024-09-23): Expirion 6.0, openKylin 2.0, managing configuration files, the future of Linux development, fixing bugs in Haiku, Slackware packages dracut |
| • Issue 1088 (2024-09-16): PorteuX 1.6, migrating from Windows 10 to which Linux distro, making NetBSD immutable, AlmaLinux offers hardware certification, Mint updates old APT tools |
| • Issue 1087 (2024-09-09): COSMIC desktop, running cron jobs at variable times, UBports highlights new apps, HardenedBSD offers work around for FreeBSD change, Debian considers how to cull old packages, systemd ported to musl |
| • Issue 1086 (2024-09-02): Vanilla OS 2, command line tips for simple tasks, FreeBSD receives investment from STF, openSUSE Tumbleweed update can break network connections, Debian refreshes media |
| • Issue 1085 (2024-08-26): Nobara 40, OpenMandriva 24.07 "ROME", distros which include source code, FreeBSD publishes quarterly report, Microsoft updates breaks Linux in dual-boot environments |
| • Issue 1084 (2024-08-19): Liya 2.0, dual boot with encryption, Haiku introduces performance improvements, Gentoo dropping IA-64, Redcore merges major upgrade |
| • Issue 1083 (2024-08-12): TrueNAS 24.04.2 "SCALE", Linux distros for smartphones, Redox OS introduces web server, PipeWire exposes battery drain on Linux, Canonical updates kernel version policy |
| • Issue 1082 (2024-08-05): Linux Mint 22, taking snapshots of UFS on FreeBSD, openSUSE updates Tumbleweed and Aeon, Debian creates Tiny QA Tasks, Manjaro testing immutable images |
| • Issue 1081 (2024-07-29): SysLinuxOS 12.4, OpenBSD gain hardware acceleration, Slackware changes kernel naming, Mint publishes upgrade instructions |
| • Issue 1080 (2024-07-22): Running GNU/Linux on Android with Andronix, protecting network services, Solus dropping AppArmor and Snap, openSUSE Aeon Desktop gaining full disk encryption, SUSE asks openSUSE to change its branding |
| • Issue 1079 (2024-07-15): Ubuntu Core 24, hiding files on Linux, Fedora dropping X11 packages on Workstation, Red Hat phasing out GRUB, new OpenSSH vulnerability, FreeBSD speeds up release cycle, UBports testing new first-run wizard |
| • Issue 1078 (2024-07-08): Changing init software, server machines running desktop environments, OpenSSH vulnerability patched, Peppermint launches new edition, HardenedBSD updates ports |
| • Issue 1077 (2024-07-01): The Unity and Lomiri interfaces, different distros for different tasks, Ubuntu plans to run Wayland on NVIDIA cards, openSUSE updates Leap Micro, Debian releases refreshed media, UBports gaining contact synchronisation, FreeDOS celebrates its 30th anniversary |
| • Issue 1076 (2024-06-24): openSUSE 15.6, what makes Linux unique, SUSE Liberty Linux to support CentOS Linux 7, SLE receives 19 years of support, openSUSE testing Leap Micro edition |
| • Issue 1075 (2024-06-17): Redox OS, X11 and Wayland on the BSDs, AlmaLinux releases Pi build, Canonical announces RISC-V laptop with Ubuntu, key changes in systemd |
| • Issue 1074 (2024-06-10): Endless OS 6.0.0, distros with init diversity, Mint to filter unverified Flatpaks, Debian adds systemd-boot options, Redox adopts COSMIC desktop, OpenSSH gains new security features |
| • Issue 1073 (2024-06-03): LXQt 2.0.0, an overview of Linux desktop environments, Canonical partners with Milk-V, openSUSE introduces new features in Aeon Desktop, Fedora mirrors see rise in traffic, Wayland adds OpenBSD support |
| • Issue 1072 (2024-05-27): Manjaro 24.0, comparing init software, OpenBSD ports Plasma 6, Arch community debates mirror requirements, ThinOS to upgrade its FreeBSD core |
| • Issue 1071 (2024-05-20): Archcraft 2024.04.06, common command line mistakes, ReactOS imports WINE improvements, Haiku makes adjusting themes easier, NetBSD takes a stand against code generated by chatbots |
| • Issue 1070 (2024-05-13): Damn Small Linux 2024, hiding kernel messages during boot, Red Hat offers AI edition, new web browser for UBports, Fedora Asahi Remix 40 released, Qubes extends support for version 4.1 |
| • Issue 1069 (2024-05-06): Ubuntu 24.04, installing packages in alternative locations, systemd creates sudo alternative, Mint encourages XApps collaboration, FreeBSD publishes quarterly update |
| • Issue 1068 (2024-04-29): Fedora 40, transforming one distro into another, Debian elects new Project Leader, Red Hat extends support cycle, Emmabuntus adds accessibility features, Canonical's new security features |
| • Issue 1067 (2024-04-22): LocalSend for transferring files, detecting supported CPU architecure levels, new visual design for APT, Fedora and openSUSE working on reproducible builds, LXQt released, AlmaLinux re-adds hardware support |
| • Issue 1066 (2024-04-15): Fun projects to do with the Raspberry Pi and PinePhone, installing new software on fixed-release distributions, improving GNOME Terminal performance, Mint testing new repository mirrors, Gentoo becomes a Software In the Public Interest project |
| • Issue 1065 (2024-04-08): Dr.Parted Live 24.03, answering questions about the xz exploit, Linux Mint to ship HWE kernel, AlmaLinux patches flaw ahead of upstream Red Hat, Calculate changes release model |
| • Issue 1064 (2024-04-01): NixOS 23.11, the status of Hurd, liblzma compromised upstream, FreeBSD Foundation focuses on improving wireless networking, Ubuntu Pro offers 12 years of support |
| • Issue 1063 (2024-03-25): Redcore Linux 2401, how slowly can a rolling release update, Debian starts new Project Leader election, Red Hat creating new NVIDIA driver, Snap store hit with more malware |
| • Issue 1062 (2024-03-18): KDE neon 20240304, changing file permissions, Canonical turns 20, Pop!_OS creates new software centre, openSUSE packages Plasma 6 |
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Springdale Linux
Springdale Linux (formerly PUIAS Linux) is a complete operating system for desktops and servers, built by compiling the source packages for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Besides these upstream packages, the project also provides several other repositories: "Addons" which contains additional packages not included in a stock Red Hat distribution, "Computational" which carries software specific to scientific computing, and "Unsupported" which holds various experimental packages. The distribution is maintained by the Institute for Advanced Study and Princeton University in the USA.
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