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1 • Choosing good passwords (by Mahmoud Slamah on 2015-03-02 03:30:00 GMT from Africa) |
My suggestion is use equations like mathimatics or chemical
for example :
1 year equal to 365 days ==== 1Y=365d
1 inch equal to 2.54 cm ==== 1I=2.54cm
1 byte equal to 8 bit ==== 1B=8b=2**4b
water === H2O2h+o
2 • Sabayon (by farfel on 2015-03-02 03:42:50 GMT from North America)
Sabayon always looks good when booted as a live cd, but I've always found it to be pretty buggy on installation. I've tried very hard to use it as a full time install, but have had no luck over several versions.
As you, I think they try to be too bleeding edge and don't really concentrate on stability. Or even testing to see if the main things work. OTOH, I've always applauded them for including the nVidia driver on the live CD.
There are always too many things which don't work, so I don't really bother downloading it anymore.
3 • Linux Mint Debian (by tdockery97 on 2015-03-02 04:34:01 GMT from North America)
I don't think you will find iso files for curious users to try. Testing of Mint iso's is only done by the Mint testing team. The link you provided is to the community website where one may follow the progress of the testing of the LMDE versions performed by Clem and the team.
4 • Ubuntu MATE (by Bill on 2015-03-02 04:39:09 GMT from Planet Mars)
Happy to see you have added Ubuntu MATE to the database.
I've been running the LTS version for about a week now and I love it!
5 • Sabayon (by tuxUser on 2015-03-02 05:03:35 GMT from North America)
I used Sabayon over the years 2009-2010 because I liked the concept rolling release. But after 2 years I dropped since Sabayon is never really stable. Many problems with xorg after updates. Finally, we must reinstall everything at 5 or each 6 months. While the concept rolling release means nothing and has no utility. Regarding Rigo, we ended up with. Rigo is better than the old package manager. The adoption by the Sabayon Fedora installer is a mistake for me.
It hurts to criticize but Sabayon is the work of one man. Building a distribution on a Gentoo base is a big challenge in itself.
I think the challenge is too big for one man. Maintain this distro, website, forum created iso daily, weekly, mountly etc ... It's a colossal work. Sabayon should merge with another Gentoo project such as Absolute Linix. Moreover, I suspect that many Sabayon user are passing on Absolute Linux. Simply visit the respective forums.
In closing, Good Luck at the Lead Developer of Sabayon.
6 • Password managers are security risk (by hobbitland on 2015-03-02 06:00:36 GMT from Europe)
I advise strongly against using password managers. You can get all your passwords compromised in one go. Can you trust a password manager? How about multi devices and updating?
Create passwords using two parts. A service part & a generic. All passwords are strong & easy to remember. I also created a hint file gpg-ed with 4096bit key protected with 36 chacrter passphrase. It sits on a luks-crypt partition encrypted with 256bit AES protected with a dfferent 36 character password.
For servcies you access rarely you can decrypt the gpg file.
7 • Choosing good passwords, cont. (by Penguin on 2015-03-02 06:05:04 GMT from Europe)
Passwords that start with a Letter are easier to crack than ones that start with a Number or Special Character. So $Million would be a better password than Million$.
8 • Sabayon (by Bonky Ozmond on 2015-03-02 06:14:19 GMT from North America)
I used to use Sabayon quite a while back..and it was in all fairness very good...then it went off the rails and became very unstable for me. I have at times tried it out when newer versions appeared but it has never been as good as the first 1 i used....
My final interest was sapped whe they changed to 64bit only alienating any 32bit users
For Gentoo based OS use Calculate linux much easier to install and has always been stable in the years i have run it..
@5 ...Absolute is a Slackware based distro not Gentoo....it is a 1 man show and is a very good slackware based distro.
9 • Sabayon's silly claim (by Simon on 2015-03-02 07:03:46 GMT from Oceania)
"We offer a bleeding edge operating system that is both stable and reliable"! How ridiculous. Thank you, Jesse, for a review that shows the reality behind such empty marketing hogwash. The claim's about as convincing as "My dog's bigger than yours, unless you think small dogs are better, in which case, my dog's smaller than yours!" in its efforts to claim two mutually exclusive qualities at once. One of the reasons I've never bothered to try Sabayon is that ridiculous claim: imagine if its developers actually believe it!
10 • sabayon (by ernstfree on 2015-03-02 07:27:16 GMT from Europe)
Sabayon, for me, was the first real easy rolling distro. Since 2010 I have always update and just lately I've had problems for abandonment of 32 bits.
Long live to sabayon project!
11 • Passwords - wood for the trees syndrome? (by Sondar on 2015-03-02 07:45:34 GMT from Europe)
Wondering whether this column/technology leaves users blinkered to security holes? Recommend using a mixture of technologies as aide-memoires, i.e. one of these should NOT be in electronic format. Although it's not my own choice of options, one could chalk up some brain-kickstart message on the back of the kitchen fridge? It would require foreign crooks to identify your location, fly halfway around the world at their own expenses with the risk that the fridge has broken down, been replaced and the memory-trigger been assigned to some other source. How many would bother (unless as Jesse suggests, you're a celeb. or PM, in which case the dog or bouncer offers new hurdles). Other possibilities are legion.
12 • Sabayon (by Corcaigher on 2015-03-02 09:07:04 GMT from North America)
I also used to run Sabayon on my desktop until it became too bug ridden for me; around 2008-09. I found the package manager (entropy) a handful back then and it's replacement, Riga is even worse. Plus when requesting assistance through the Sabayon forum I noticed very snide comments from the user base and even the moderators. Not a pleasant experience. That's when I discovered LinuxMint, which I have been using ever since.
13 • Linux kernel bump and Sabayon (by Barnabyh on 2015-03-02 09:52:38 GMT from North America)
Has it been 4 years of Linux 3 already? Hard to believe time flies like this.
Re. Sabayon, I have also tested quite many editions and versions of it, desperately trying to like it as the claims sound too good. Had the same impression as articulated in the review's conclusion though. If you have to re-install every six months might as well run Ubuntu.
14 • @4 Ubuntu-Mate (by kc1di on 2015-03-02 10:28:56 GMT from North America)
I've been using Ubuntu-Mate LTS since it was announce and find it stable- and dependable. Use it everyday for work.
15 • Generate a good password (by Magic Banana on 2015-03-02 11:57:36 GMT from South America)
@Mahmoud Slamah: seven characters really are too few.
A way to generate a "good password" (as defined by Jesse: "easy to remember and difficult to guess") is to take several random words. Here is a command to get three random American-English words of at most five characters each (you can obviously change the command to get more words/characters or to pick the words in another dictionary):
$ cut -d / -f 1 /usr/share/hunspell/en_US.dic | awk 'length <= 5' | shuf | head -3 | tr '\n' ' '
You can execute the command repeatedly until it outputs a password you like. Here are he five first passwords it has just output on my machine:
Claus keel Molly
Noell ripe Ave
scad intra lade
wacko Amii Shani
ctr Lewis Elden
16 • Ubuntu-Mate (by fr3d on 2015-03-02 11:58:20 GMT from North America)
I've been using Ubuntu-Mate for several months now and have found it more solid that some of the other Ubuntu releases. When all else fails, go back to the original (or something close to it). Well done, Ubuntu-Mate team; this is a fantastic distribution!
17 • Gentoo based distros (by dhinds on 2015-03-02 12:56:22 GMT from North America)
My experience re Sabayon coincides w/ that of Bonky Ozmond. It was very usable 7 years ago. But for a Gentoo based distro today Calculate is the way to go and since it's a Gentoo Overlay, the Gentoo Forums can be used. Calculate also uses openrc.
18 • @post 2 (and the review) (by Jordan on 2015-03-02 13:10:39 GMT from North America)
Ditto. It sure looks pretty on the website. Also the spiel about it is attractive, in what they themselves have to say about their product.
But no cigar. Over several releases over several years, functionality takes quite a hit.. same ol' same ol'.
19 • Passwords -- change often? (by rufovillosum on 2015-03-02 13:19:00 GMT from Planet Mars)
I fail to see why changing a password often increases your security. In the most likely case, your old password has not been compromised and is just as good as it ever was. If your password has been compromised, you'd probably already know this, and in any case is akin to barn doors and horses. Only in the extremely rare case that you change your password just as someone is in the process of a brute force attack would changing be useful.
20 • sabayon @8 (by tuxuser on 2015-03-02 13:37:34 GMT from North America)
@8 Sorry! I meant Calculate Linux
21 • Passwords (by Isaac on 2015-03-02 14:00:04 GMT from North America)
I like the idea of coming up with an algorithmic password. Come up with an algorithm that's easy for you to remember and you'll never have to remember the actual password. For example take the name of the service you're logging into like Netflix and your dog's name Spot plus the year you were born 1975. Start with the third letter of the service, capitalize the second letter of the dog's name, last letter of the service, first letter of the dog's name type your birth year while holding shift for every other number and you get: tPxs1(7%
It would be hard to guess and you won't have to worry about using the same password for every service. One downside is having a service that makes you change your password every 30 days.
22 • Sabayon (by Sebastian on 2015-03-02 14:47:21 GMT from South America)
I used to run Sabayon for a couple of years. I never had problems. Regarding the package manager I always used Equo, the command line client for the old Entropy or the new Rigo, there you know in text mode everything the package manager is or is not doing. Once, as an experiment on an old laptop I installed S7 and I did un upgrade to S10 (skipping S8 and 9). After rebooting the system, everything was working well out-of-the-box on S 10.
23 • Re: Passwords (by Magic Banana on 2015-03-02 14:55:40 GMT from South America)
@Isaac: you have to remember the process though! I doubt it is easier than remembering three random words as generated in #15.
24 • PasswordMaker.org (by Schultzter on 2015-03-02 16:32:48 GMT from North America)
I'm surprise no one has suggested PasswordMaker.org yet! Works on Chrome, Android, and many other implementations. And most awesome, every password is unique and none of them are ever stored anywhere.
25 • Passwords (by Carl Johnson on 2015-03-02 17:23:07 GMT from Europe)
I think password cards are also useful:https://www.passwordcard.org/en
It might not be the perfect solution, but it can be much better than using bad passwords. (And distributing your passwords to many cards improves security somewhat.)
26 • @21 Re: Passwords (by far2fish on 2015-03-02 17:23:11 GMT from Europe)
@21 Said "It would be hard to guess and you won't have to worry about using the same password for every service. One downside is having a service that makes you change your password every 30 days."
I agree with your algorithm approach, and for services that forces you to change regularly, add an increment to the numeric input, or an incremental number to the end or middle of your password.
27 • Sabayon (by bro koko on 2015-03-02 17:47:14 GMT from North America)
I used Sabayon a long while ago and left it for Calculate which I also found to be buggy and difficult to maintain. I have since moved to Arch, and have no regrets. The Sabayon installation I tried last installed decently, but when I ran the upgrade from the console, I completely corrupted the installation. Hours wasted = never trying again. Steam works better with other bases, and I find it to be completely reliable on my Arch box.
28 • Passwords (by albinard on 2015-03-02 17:58:10 GMT from North America)
I've used algorithmic passwords for some time, but with a different twist: take some memorable song lyrics, poem, Shakespearian passage – anything you find you have remembered for years. Take the first letters of as many words as you wish, and encrypt them in some fashion (leet, letter number, upper case, whatever) and type them out a few times as you think of the quotation. You will find that the motor memory of typing while reciting makes the process surprisingly easy to remember. Your aide-memoire can be something like
Xfce Forum: “The Raven”
for your encryption of the first few words or lines of Edgar Allen Poe's famous poem.
29 • Calculate Linux (by a on 2015-03-02 19:07:45 GMT from Europe)
Thanks @17 for mentionning that Calculate Linux uses OpenRC; I never really had a look at it thinking it was a specific distro targetting scientific users, but in fact not at all… If it’s an easy way of installing and using Gentoo then I’m very interested.
30 • KeypassX (by a on 2015-03-02 19:12:56 GMT from Europe)
And on the topic of passwords, after using the typical self-made algorithm based on the name of the service, switching to KeypassX has been a real relief for me (coupled with the ability of Firefox to remember logins and passwords). Sure, it’s a single point of failure, but it uses scrypt or bcrypt or something like that to make brute-force attacks practically impossible, and someone needs to hack into your computer to get the file first, so at that point you’re deeply in trouble anyway.
31 • Mate & Passwords (by M.Z. on 2015-03-02 19:50:43 GMT from Planet Mars)
My question on Ubuntu Mate, why not use Mint Mate instead? Mint not only has a better track record on user privacy, but they've been doing the Mate desktop as one of their core versions for some time now. Give the size of Mint compared to an Ubuntu community spin I'd guess that you'd get a more polished desktop with the same base. Is there really a point to this version of Ubuntu when you can get the same basic thing from a team that's been doing it longer & better?
Nice idea. I'd guess #23s concern about remembering the process wouldn't be an issue if you reused the same algorithm enough. I actually flip the order of one of my passwords around after expiration, similar to what #26 suggests, so I don't think that expired passwords would be too much of an issue. You'll always get it on the second try if you consistently flip one part of the password, right?
For my personal passwords I tend to use technical descriptors of things I'm interested in. For instance if I were into astronomy I might use:
It effectively describes the 8th planet from the sun in terms of distance from the sun & length of its solar year. I think you could easily apply this method to many different things that you might be interested in with some sort of physical descriptor. As long as you don't have pictures of that thing of interest on facebook it should be fairly hard to guess. As a bonus you'll always remember exact descriptions of the things you're interested in if you keep typing them in as passwords. It's also fairly easy to generate a lengthy password that will make for it tough for someone to get root on your system.
32 • Calculate Linux (by dhinds on 2015-03-02 19:56:01 GMT from North America)
Yes, that is exactly what it is, if either kde or xfce fits your needs. "an easy way of installing and using Gentoo". OTOH, all rolling releases can break sometimes, but reinstalling w/o formatting has solved the rare problems I've had to date.
I never-the-less have other systems installed and keep my data in a separate partition, accessible for any OS.
33 • Ubuntu Mate (by linuxista on 2015-03-02 20:53:53 GMT from North America)
@31 The Ubuntu Mate team have done a very polished job from the beginning and it is under very active and somewhat unique development path, including a port to Power PC and, I'm not sure, but I think implementing global menus and pushing it upstream to Mate.
The privacy issues with Ubuntu have been mostly if not exclusively related to the flagship Unity edition. So while Mint have been doing it longer, I wouldn't automatically assume they are doing it better.
34 • Maybe... (by M.Z. on 2015-03-02 22:19:54 GMT from Planet Mars)
Maybe if they're implementing new features they have a reason for a Mate spin; however, the Ubuntu respins are generally community efforts that I think have far less resources than a project like Mint. Given the fact that Mint is widely acknowledged to be among the most polished Distros around & Mate is a main version of their Distro, I think an Ubuntu Mate would like be another useless copy of Ubuntu that diverted resources away from similar efforts. Their road map mentions some vaguely interesting stuff about docks & launchers, but they also talk about Compiz integration which is all ready in Mint! Talk about needless duplication of effort. I'm aware of where the privacy issues occurred, but Ubuntu is sort of radioactive as a name for me & will be until they fix the issue in their main edition. Perhaps they can prove me wrong in the long run, but I'm fairly skeptical about the need for a project like Ubuntu Mate.
35 • Choosing a secure password (by cykodrone on 2015-03-03 01:41:24 GMT from North America)
I use associations instead of the actual word or term, on top of that, I memorize its spelling backwards, and for good measure I throw in a number somewhere (a lot of times you're asked for a number nowadays anyway), for example, temlehelprup8. I don't personally eat purple helmets, it's a joke, that's another thing, have some fun with making up whacky passwords. :D You might think I'm crazy, but I've never been hacked, ever.
36 • Bloated Projects (by John on 2015-03-03 07:01:57 GMT from Europe)
I find a minimal Debian Stable install works best. I choose whether or not I want something like Gnome, KDE, etc. or a Window Manager. I can install several if I want and switch between them for various tasks.
37 • Reproducible builds - version control, anyone? (by Ben Myers on 2015-03-03 14:58:37 GMT from North America)
It's a little unsettling to find out that builds cannot be reproduced reliably from source code. It certainly has something to do with the complexity of the beast, and I wonder of Microsoft or Apple would ever go public with a statement about REproducing OS versions from source code. Probably not. Anybody ever heard of version control?
38 • Sabayon (by Dave on 2015-03-03 15:26:25 GMT from North America)
I too ran Sabayon for more than a year as my everyday desktop system and had to leave it behind for more mature Linux distros. TBH, if you want something Gentoo based, you really are best off with the real thing. Same can be said of any of the child distros such as Ubuntu, but especially true of Sabayon. Look, Gentoo really does need to be installed from the ground up and tailored to your precise needs, and that is what makes Gentoo what it is. Same thing with Arch. Using a distro based on them seriously defeats the purpose of using them.
39 • @38 (by jaws222 on 2015-03-03 18:03:17 GMT from North America)
"Gentoo really does need to be installed from the ground up and tailored to your precise needs, and that is what makes Gentoo what it is. Same thing with Arch. Using a distro based on them seriously defeats the purpose of using them."
So you're saying any distro not built from the ground up is useless?
40 • @39 (by mandog on 2015-03-03 19:35:39 GMT from South America)
What he is saying is correct but you either don't get it or just want to argue,
Gentoo as arch is only a base to build on, Manjaro/calculate are what someone else decides you want you have no say, I hope that makes it clearer.
41 • @40 (by jaws222 on 2015-03-03 19:45:07 GMT from North America)
"Gentoo as arch is only a base to build on, Manjaro/calculate are what someone else decides you want you have no say, I hope that makes it clearer."
AHHH! Now that I get.
Two of my favorites are Manjaro and Lnux Lite and I obviously like what they're doing so I'm good. :)
42 • Ubuntu still a good base (by mikef90000 on 2015-03-03 20:39:47 GMT from North America)
While I agree that a specialized, minimal system is easier to build from the Debian base, Ubuntu is still better for a fully functional system with saner defaults and more options. There are literally thousands of packages that can't or won't be accepted upstream by the Debian maintainers. The MATE DE may make it upstream eventually, but it is exasperating that workwhile apps like grub-customizer are continually rebuffed.
43 • Gentoo / calculate etc (by Bonky Ozmond on 2015-03-03 21:31:42 GMT from North America)
Calculate for me meant i could install My Gentoo in considerably less time and with less effort than doing it the Gentoo way...I dont have the same desktop etc and their is "Gentoo scratch" which is basically just a Gentoo installer. you add all the rest .the Gentoo Repos are 100% compatible Calculate do have some Binary builds of a few programs as well.. and you use Portage, and compile programs in the same way as Gentoo
Even pure Gentoo users will tell you to use Funtoo or the Gentoo based rescue CD ( name eludes me atm) or Calculate to make installation easier..
Sabayon Is conciderably different and could be classed as more Like Manjaro / Arch relationship
Manaro and Arch is a little different as the Repos aren't 100% compatible ...You can if fact install Manjaro as a base install and build it the way you want..
Calculate and Manjaro are my Main distros both are incredibly stable, fast and easy to use
44 • @43 (by mandog on 2015-03-03 22:04:35 GMT from South America)
You can certainly do a Manjaro Net install but that is not the same as a arch base install now is it comes with a bucketful of unneeded bloat, and tools that only a newbie would use ,Taken from the Wiki Calculate 100% compatible with Gentoo, but provides official binary repository updates. That is not the Gentoo way now is it pure Gentoo is built from source code and you set the flags, not with preconfigured binary packages. so as I said earlier Manjaro/calculate are what someone else decides you want you have no say,
45 • Xfce 4.12 (by linuxista on 2015-03-03 23:02:42 GMT from North America)
One of the new features / upgrades in the new release of Xfce 4.12 is that Thunar now has tabbed windows. I've had tabs in Thunar for at least a year or two. Anybody know what the deal is?
46 • @43/44 (by kernelKurtz on 2015-03-03 23:21:10 GMT from North America)
You guys are coming from opposite ends, but I agree with you both. I've been full-time Linuxing for a couple years, and I love both Manjaro and Calculate. Now that I'm comfortable at that intermediate level though, I'm beginning to consider more hardcore ways of conducting my digital business. As in this recent Reddit thread:
Will I successfully install Gentoo and join the l33t? Probably. Will I want to live there forever? Well ... maybe. We'll see.
47 • SiNG (by mechanic on 2015-03-03 23:23:28 GMT from Europe)
SiNG is from Todd Robinson of 31 flavors fame? Not quite like the SiNG of a couple of years ago!
48 • Gentoo (by Carlos on 2015-03-03 23:50:45 GMT from Europe)
Correct, Calculate linux is not really like Gentoo, they have their own repository with binary packages.
For something more similar to Gentoo, try Toorox. It looks ugly as hell, though.
49 • @31 Mate (by Rev_Don on 2015-03-04 03:34:50 GMT from North America)
"My question on Ubuntu Mate, why not use Mint Mate instead?"
That one is extremely easy. Ubuntu Mate just works better than Mint Mate 17 or 17.1. Mint Mate 17.x has some nasty bugs and problems with Kdenlive which is the only viable video editing software for Linux (no offense to Openshot which has some serious shortcomings).
And the security/privacy issues are with Ubuntu, not any of the other 'Buntu's. It all has to do with that darn UnityDE. NONE of the other 'Buntus have the issues.
50 • Running a MATE distro (by cykodrone on 2015-03-04 05:00:12 GMT from North America)
I'm running PCLinuxOS MATE with zero problems, actually, no, I made the mistake of installing gnome-themes-standard, what a mistake, it conflicted with the MATE theme ecosystem, I was playing around with custom GUI combinations in Appearance, clicked on the wrong 'controls' and wound up on a blank desktop (just wallpaper, no panel, icons, nothing), I had to force a shutdown, upon rebooting I couldn't get my normal desktop back because it was still trying to use the bad controls option. Although, the root account still logged in normally. The fix was deleting or shredding the 'user' file in home/user/.config/dconf, this set ALL the users choices back to defaults (and cleared the bad Appearance controls choice as well), which was good because it's more like the traditional MATE DE as opposed to the tweaked PCLOS version, it also sped up the GUI performance dramatically. The only catch to this fix is any nook and cranny settings will need to be put back the way you like them, that includes poking around in dconf a little. I was very relieved to find this fix, I almost reinstalled but was pleasantly surprised by the better performance side effect. After removing the conflicting old gnome packages, the Appearance settings returned to normal, the 'samples' (mini previews) were no longer greyed out with question marks over top of them. After that incident, I created a backup user account.
This was no fault of PCLOS, I was the dummy for 'experimenting', I learn how to fix things by breaking them first, lol.
51 • @45 (by Milo on 2015-03-04 06:19:16 GMT from Europe)
Much like the GNOME Project, some of the Xfce component software projects have their own version numbers and release schedules. At the time of Xfce 4.10's release (2012-April-28), Thunar (1.4.0) didn't have tabs. During the Xfce development cycle between 4.10 and 4.12, Thunar added tabs (as of Thunar 1.6.0). The Xfce 4.12 changelog should reflect the major changes made since the Xfce 4.10 changelog (for Thunar, that would reflect changes made from Thunar 1.4.0 to Thunar 1.6.6).
52 • Ubuntu MATE edition (by frodopogo on 2015-03-04 06:32:29 GMT from North America)
I've been a long time Mint user, since version 5 (Elyssa).
I like it a lot... I've used the MATE edition mostly recently, but have Cinnamon on one computer and it's running well.
I'm not really sure why, but I wanted to try one Ubuntu edition. I've tried to like xfce, but while it superficially looks similar to MATE, too many things are in different places.
So Xubuntu is out. And I get similar reactions to KDE.
So when I saw Ubuntu MATE, I decided to try it. So far, it's running really well, no problems at all. No, it's not as polished as Mint esthetically, and I was surprised that the menu doesn't work quite the same as the Mint MATE edition. Still, the similarities with the Mint MATE version have kept me from getting disgusted with it.
The sense I get is that because MATE is really GNOME 2 at heart, it's a mature desktop.
Put on top of Ubuntu, you have something really solid, surprisingly solid for what is in another sense a new project.
The Mint repository is much easier to use than Synaptic, but beyond the Featured programs, I've found that it has so much in it, including programs that only work on the command line, that looking for different programs than the typical choices is kind of like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. Somehow the couple of times I tried it, I found the Ubuntu repository easier to search through. I downloaded an obscure MIDI program. Once I got it running in Ubuntu MATE, I tried downoading it for Mint- and to my surprise I couldn't get it working in Mint. But then I figured out how to make VLC work with MIDI files, so Ubuntu MATE lost it's temporary advantage. Still, it showed me that there might be an occasional program that runs better on Ubuntu MATE than on Mint MATE. Ubuntu MATE also had larger default font sizes- once I realized that my 62 year old eyes liked that better, I increased the fonts in Mint to the same size. So paradoxically, I'm using Ubuntu MATE to increase my enjoyment of Mint MATE! Anyway, I think it's well worth a try, and you might even find some little pluses like I have, but it's not going to be a Mint-killer, either. But neither am I likely to remove it from it's partition. I think it's likely to climb in the Distrowatch ratings.
53 • Gentoo and console Linux (by All Gore on 2015-03-04 08:14:02 GMT from Europe)
1.- Gentoo and Funtoo also have binary packages in their repos. You can for instance install Firefox and Libreoffice binary blobs even if it is also possible compiling them from source.
2.- There are a number of console-only Linux distros. One, for instance, is killX:
If it needs to be Debian-based, the same fellows produce different flavours with no X:
54 • Linuxbbq (by Carlos on 2015-03-04 11:51:08 GMT from Europe)
Those guys are amazing, they had lots of downloads with different desktops, all based on Debian SID and also a live CD with tens of window managers!
It's very fun to read their forums too:
55 • Trust issues (by M.Z. on 2015-03-04 18:40:10 GMT from Planet Mars)
I'm aware that the spyware was a Unity thing unrelated to all the community spins, but it created one simple problem. I no longer trust anything labeled Ubuntu, & will not use it till I'm satisfied with the changes to the main edition. I really don't think I should bother with any version of a project that has so little respect for users, especially given that there are so many good alternatives. Perhaps its a bit hardline, but that's how I feel about Ubuntu. I suppose there could be bug issues with one distro or another from time to time that may make switching to a similar project worthwhile; however, that issue is more of a need for a temporary workaround than a justification for a project like Ubuntu Mate. The comparisons that #52 makes are a bit interesting, but I'm still not sure this new Ubuntu is particularly useful or needed.
56 • Sabayon VS Toorox (by YO on 2015-03-05 03:29:16 GMT from North America)
It's too bad Toorox is no longer under active development, as I found it to be much more stable. Unlike Sabayon, Toorox completely followed the Gentoo tool chain.
57 • Linux distro producers are poor marketers. (by Greg Zeng on 2015-03-05 04:06:29 GMT from Oceania)
Linux distro producers are poor marketers. "Thinking Different" means rebelling against well established marketing & psychological "laws".
Linux Mint has white fonts sitting on a white background. KDE has poor selections of unusual KDE defaults. Ubuntu & its derivatives lumber us Australians with a crazy selection of ethnic fonts.
@48 • Gentoo "It looks ugly as hell, though."
@49 • 'just works better than Mint Mate"
@50 • "I was playing around with custom GUI combinations in Appearance, clicked on the wrong 'controls' and wound up on a blank desktsop (just wallpaper, no panel, icons, nothing)"
@52 • Ubuntu MATE edition "also had larger default font size"
... and in many other reviews & comments.
The small-business marketing-noobs refuse to default to noob-friendly settings, such as chosen by the mass marketing giants like Microsoft & Apple.
Bland & Boring is the way to present to mass markets, e.g. Toyota Corolla. Easy default-return should be available, if the user or a bad application messes up.
Linux distro producers are the One Per Centers. Arrogant, Proud. Lonely. Will they ever grow up?
58 • @57 - Poor Linux Marketing - SPOT ON! (by Ben Myers on 2015-03-05 05:49:06 GMT from North America)
Been saying things like this for years. Looks like desktop Linux is missing yet another window(s) of opportunity, given Microsoft's greatest ever pratfall of Windows 8. Just installed Windows 8.1 for someone who actually wanted it. No improvement over Windows 8, horrific desktop colors and backgrounds designed by someone on hallucinogenic drugs, and Microsoft tries real hard to collect your permissions to be watched over even better than the NSA does. Now they are skipping Windows 9 to create the mirage of distance from Windows 8, and the next one is called Windows 10.
But who is promoting the hell out of a viable Linux to replace Windows? Nobody. There may not even be a viable replacement, because Linux offers way too many desktop managers, and most distros don't install pleasant and bland and boring color schemes and desktop backgrounds as part of the initial install. The ever-so-cute Linux program names are a drawback, too. Why did they call it GIMP instead of IMP, Image Manipulation Program? Awful name for a very nice product. And the KDE crowd with all the K-names! People do not want cute, quirky and egomaniacal program names, just simple easy-to-remember program names that give a clue as to what the program does.
I find this frustrating, because I deal with all the Windows crap day after day after day. Why? That's how I can make some money. Would somebody take the time to come up with a viable Windows alternative? Yet another Window of opportunity is closing. If you are kepping score, Windows ME and Windows Vista were the previous windows, now slammed shut.
59 • @57 I found a bug... (by cykodrone on 2015-03-05 12:11:48 GMT from North America)
...that's all, what PCLOS needs to do is maybe create separate repos for the different DEs or mark the offending packing as conflicting with the MATE DE meta-package, there's showstopper bugs in those other OSes too. As stated at the end of my comment, it was my fault, I installed the offending package thinking I could get more GUI options, so you quoting me is somewhat out of context, a normal user would not have 'experimented' like I did, and that normal user would only have needed dependencies brought in with new app installations.
60 • @ 57, 58 (by Euler on 2015-03-05 14:29:53 GMT from Europe)
Linux is never the first alternative for an unpopular Windows version. The first alternative is another Windows version. Win 7 instead of win 8, XP instead of Vista and so on.
Design was also a weak point in Linux as developers do not think it is important are think they can do in themselves. And design is a way to distinguish distributions form each other. For example the KDE guys for the first time set a design focus for their Plasma 5. But looking at the first distributions featuring Plasma 5 the design is radically different form the default design provided by the design team. I just hope I get something I like when I switch together with a big distribution like kubuntu or opensuse.
61 • @57, @58 and @60 (by far2fish on 2015-03-05 17:38:56 GMT from Europe)
i know this is controversial, but the only ones that seems to have tried thinking design is Canonical with Unity and the gnome project with Gnome 3. Only problem they were/are alienating their most loyal users.....
62 • Bling vs Just-Works (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-03-05 17:40:25 GMT from North America)
While it may provide some initial attraction, appearance is not a primary driver of OS loyalty. Robustness and functionality matter more. A UI that allows the user to focus on the task (instead of, say, command syntax) matters more. The most important Design area is Best Practices, not appearance (aka "desktop environment") or marketing.
A toolset that dependably and reliably makes its users efficient and effective will sell itself; a churning base will not.
Consider the lament of one developer: "We lost sight of what mattered for our users, focusing on features that were nice (i.e. fun?) but perhaps not as necessary as we thought." This is normal for geeks, and not all bad; there is a place for innovation.
Amusingly, Windows XP is gaining market-share apace with version 8.x, likely because it provides a free-er platform. For older/lower-spec hardware and similar VMs, it remains useful. As long as ReactOS remains a primarily academic project, it has little competition.
63 • @19 Password comprimission (by Kazlu on 2015-03-05 18:30:40 GMT from Europe)
"If your password has been compromised, you'd probably already know this"
Not necessarily. The most successful attacks are sometimes those that stay hidden. Besides, even if you know one of your passwords is corrupted, what do you do? You might want to/have to continue using the service, at least once the reason of the leak has been taken care of, and in that case you will need a new pasword.
64 • @31, 33 M.Z. Ubuntu MATE (by Kazlu on 2015-03-05 18:31:12 GMT from Europe)
Ubuntu is different from Mint beyond the desktop environment: Ubuntu allows silent auto security updates while Mint doesn't, Ubuntu allows you to upgrade to the next version via the live media while Mint doesn't, etc. I'm not saying Ubuntu is better, just that it's different. If it was only for me, the benefits of Mint overcome those of Ubuntu (update filtering, MATE MintMenu, other nice tweaks, and even themes) and I would rather install Mint than Ubuntu on a spare computer for example. But if I were asked to install a GNU/Linux distro for relatives that are already hard to convert from Windows, I would probably go for Ubuntu as I think is is more suited for people to whom the Mint differencies do not matter, or even worse these differences might make them go away. And of course, I would likely choose Xubuntu or Ubuntu MATE instead of vanilla Ubuntu.
About privacy issues, Ubuntu MATE and Linux Mint are both community distributions using the Ubuntu repositories. Ubuntu MATE is only an Ubuntu derivative, I really fail to see how Mint would be better on the privacy front.
Finally, you talk about duplication of effort, but who says Ubuntu MATE is not reusing the MATE implementation of Mint and then bring some customization? And who says Mint cannot benefit from what Ubuntu MATE may bring? Since the two projects will share a lot of code in common, although they *look* different, they can surely benefit from each other.
65 • Marketing? (by M.Z. on 2015-03-05 18:43:44 GMT from Planet Mars)
@57 & 58
Marketing is something Canonical has been very focused on with Ubuntu, along with design as #61 points out. They once sent people free discs & tried to get people to hand copies out etc. It helped them gain market share & grow the Linux Market in general, but no one is interested enough in desktop Linux to put big money into taking on Windows. It just isn't a viable profit source given the fact that as soon as they savvy first adopters start to switch they will find a good enough free version that they will use & recommend to others over the paid version. The whole free thing is a bit of a double edged sword in this regard, because users with a free alternative won't give money to the kind of big profit seeking company that could do effective marketing.
The whole name thing is kind of a non-issue if you consider the popularity of both Firefox & Chrome. I mean what could those names mean, if you didn't know they were browsers? Why should these products have a giant uptake & others have trouble if this was a real issue? I certainly don't think Mozilla or their Firefox browser started out with any sort of massive marketing advantage like Chrome had, it was a very uphill battle against a dominant player, with one little browser with a funny name. Also Gnome 3 has followed the naming policy you suggest with Nautilus (now Files) & a browser now called Web. They have other issues with their user base now, so I don't think that a naming policy is helping them any.
At any rate I think the whole Linux market share issue is a complex one with many moving parts, involving both a lack of a well funded champion that can take on the big players better than Canonical, & an entrenched monopoly in MS. There is also the fact that the whole idea of installing a new OS is both foreign & scary to many potential users, sort of like performing your own oil change. It is an issue that is related to the fact that many people consider the PC something of a magic box powered by electrons. I had an economics professor say that was how they felt about computers, so I'm guessing that many other users feel similar. If you ever see someone pull a computer apart & learn about the parts it makes more sense & you can start to do stuff on your own, but there are hurdles of uncertainty that most people don't want to spend the time to overcome. If you just go to the store & buy a new PC with Windows on it you can feel like you've avoided most of the strange complex & frighting computer things. You may never learn anything, but you can feel like you've avoided a bunch of hard problems, no matter how hard they really were. I think this is the biggest issue for an OS like Linux, & the reason why it both has above average users & a tiny market share.
66 • Same as BP (by M.Z. on 2015-03-05 20:03:21 GMT from Planet Mars)
It's the same reason I'll never go to a BP, they've damaged whatever trust I had in them. My father once bought fuel exclusively from a gas company that got purchased by BP. He believed in their product & though it was the best gasoline on the market that was the most filtered & best for his vehicle. His '85 Camaro had over 380,000 on the original engine when it died, & I don't think he ever had a fuel injector issue on the vehicle. When BP bought the company he got fuel from, they automatically got his business. I start to buy exclusively from them as well, until the gulf oil spill. Now there is of course a monumental difference in scale between the criminal negligence of BP & the privacy violations of Canonical/Ubuntu, but I can go elsewhere for an alternative to either product.
I see Ubuntu Mate as something like the local BP store, a affiliated organization that is well likely meaning that I still won't go near. There are probably lots of nice hardworking people that own &/or work at the local BP that had nothing to do with the gulf oil spill, but buying there benefits BP so they are unfortunately caught in the crossfire. I see the same basic relationship with any distro named Ubuntu, community effort or not. The code base used by Mint is like oil from Alaska. Sure BP/Canonical owns most of the infrastructure up there but after it leaves them it is all just a different version of the same refined product. I'm not buying/downloading directly from someone who messed up so bad, its my personal morale stand on the issue.
Another difference is how the two seem to be acting after the fact. I think Canonical at least seems willing to move in the right direction, though they haven't done it yet. I've heard what BP is doing in the gulf on the Ed show on cable news. It's fairly pathetic & all going in the wrong direction. I hold out some hope that Ubuntu will again be an acceptable name for my OS needs, but BP seems to want to piss me off so I'm far more skeptical about them. I'll probably try something labeled Ubuntu again after they have implemented a decent solution, but not before. I also think Canonical has done some damage to the reputation of the Linux brand, to the extent that any consumer awareness exists. I'm willing to forgive eventually, but I need to see action first.
67 • Manjaro (by Thomas Mahoney on 2015-03-05 21:53:26 GMT from North America)
It has been relatively quiet here since the release of Manjaro KDE 0.9.0. Kudos to Manjaro for releasing a near perfect Beta ahead of what has been for me struggling attempts by other distros to hit the bricks with Plasma 5.
68 • Desktops (by Kubelik on 2015-03-06 02:23:50 GMT from Europe)
@61 Yes consistent design is important. The Ubuntu Phone design seems more modern and i line with GNOME 3 Shell. Just wish Canonical would quit Mir in favour of Wayland,
as they quit Upstart in favour of systemd. That would strengthen (a little varied) mainstream bit for a Linux DE ready to take on MS.
@62 "Best Practices" ? Absolutely.- "Robustness and functionality". Certainly. - As to the DEs: In the present days with convergence etc. For me that is GNOME 3 Shell.
@67 I am also looking forward to the Plasma 5 and the, not so revolutionary, XFCE 4.12 coming with the Manjaro 0.90. But they are still pre3 editions. Have to wait a little longer:)
69 • Marketing (by frodopogo on 2015-03-06 04:47:39 GMT from North America)
Yeah, I've noticed it. And been frustrated by it. But marketing in the Linux World takes a different route. For instance, Distrowatch itself is a form of marketing.
The problem is that Distrowatch is dominated by IT personnel and geeks in general. I used the rankings and the reviews to select Linux Mint which I think overall does the best job of making a user friendly distro. But even the Mint forums, as friendly as they are are overrun with people who think that using Terminal is a viable option for Windows refugees. I used DOS back in the day, so it's BARELY an option for me, but for most it would not be. And sometimes I see signs that while the interface is more Windows-like, there is a tendency to get caught up in design trends... like disguising the traditional minimize, maximize, and close icons, or making them smaller. And the default font size decreasing over the last few versions is also an example of that. Isadora was golden for me.... since then, in little ways (that I can usually fix) Linux Mint is moving away from what I would consider optimum friendliness for noobs. I do however think the move to an LTS base is a step in the right direction. I have always gone with the LTS versions... 6 month versions seem like madness to me.
Also, there is a degree of Windows hating in the Linux subculture that seems somewhat dysfunctional, and leads to wanting to be different from Windows just for the sake of being different from Windows, apart from useability or functionality. I confess I can related to it- I loved to hate Windows back when I was using GeoWorks! But now I just hate that Windows is a security nightmare.
For instance, I think every Linux distro that THINKS they are user friendly should come with at least one Windows-like theme available on the ISO. There are or were such themes available for Gnome 2, but they seem to be disappearing.
The marketing-challenged tendency extends beyond program names to distro names.
Rebellin? KaOS? Bodhi? Mageia? So many of the names are more about expressing the developers' worldview than appealing to a general audience. And many are just good for a laugh. And even the ones that aren't laughable are based on assumptions Puppy and BlackLab Linux? Are all computer users dog lovers? Do none own cats?
And acronyms..... xfce? How are you supposed to pronounce that? KDE likewise unpronounceable.... yeah, too many k's in EVERYTHING. The initial consonant is a major memory "hook", and using k's for everything is just.... just..... just..... I won't say it. Also, misspelling c word with k's is a cheap cutesy marketing trick used mostly by manufacturers of cat food and children's toys! It does not put you in very sophisticated company, and it offends anyone who has a feeling for proper English. MATE and Mint are at least proper English words with mildly positive associations. Cinnamon too.
Anyway, I think there needs to be a site dedicated to user friendly Linux versions exclusively, with some kind of ranking for friendliness as the major parameter. Reliability is important too, of course. Crashes and such are inherently noob unfriendly!
There is just no way I would send most Windows refugees directly to Distrowatch, where user-friendly versions are a small needle in a very large haystack. (That's not to discount it's usefulness to the IT techs it is mostly aimed at. And for various reasons I find it fascinating- but it's not noob-friendly at all.) I don't think it would even be a good idea to use the word "distro", which isn't a real word but just Linux jargon. Jargon is inherently "unfriendly", and the Linux world is chock full of it.
One thing that would make Linux more friendly is if there was a question in the installation program:
"What kind of previous computer experience do you have?
Have you mostly used Windows XP, Windows 7, Mac? Smartphones?
Do you want the look and feel to mimic your previous computer experience?
70 • MATE (by linuxista on 2015-03-06 07:24:55 GMT from North America)
@69 "MATE and Mint are at least proper English words with mildly positive associations. Cinnamon too."
Nay, friend. "MATE" is not a proper English word by any means. It is So. American Spanish and Portuguese and originally comes from Quechua. It's pronounced like "latte."
71 • Ubuntu Mate vs. Linux Mint (by linuxista on 2015-03-06 07:38:28 GMT from North America)
Linux Unplugged just had a podcast where the whole end portion was with the lead dev of Ubuntu Mate talking about the project and future devel plans. http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/78217/ubuntu-mate-gets-legit-lup-82/
Ubuntu's getting all the slagging right now, but years back the only significant difference b/t Ubuntu and Mint (not counting the color schemes) was that Ubuntu was being the FOSS good citizen by not having proprietary codecs on the ISO, whereas Mint did, which made it easier to install on your mom's or friends' box. A lot of Mint's early gains were based on this.
72 • @65 marketing (by Kazlu on 2015-03-06 11:39:09 GMT from Europe)
Two points I'd like to comment upon:
"It just isn't a viable profit source given the fact that as soon as they savvy first adopters start to switch they will find a good enough free version that they will use & recommend to others over the paid version. The whole free thing is a bit of a double edged sword in this regard, because users with a free alternative won't give money to the kind of big profit seeking company that could do effective marketing."
If that was true, Android would never have met success. I agree it's probably hard to make profit from selling a distribution (although you can still sell ready to use installation media for people who don't want to even try making their own), but that's not the only way to make profit around a distribution. So the reason must be searched elsewhere. And I think you brought one of the main reasons (if not *the* main reason) why GNU/Linux on desktop stays marginal in the following of your comment:
"There is also the fact that the whole idea of installing a new OS is both foreign & scary to many potential users, sort of like performing your own oil change."
I strongly agree with that and the rest of what you said. In fact, tablets proved that people are ready to use something else than Windows. But to most people, the product (computer or tablet) must be ready to use. That's why I would really like to see more and more computers sold with GNU/Linux or projects like the MintBox.
And a word about your comment #66:
Interesting analogy, I can see your point. I do not completely agree, but at least I understand what you mean and actually I share some of your concerns (part of the reasons why I moved to Debian). Thanks for the explanation.
73 • @69 (by far2fish on 2015-03-06 18:35:51 GMT from Europe)
"MATE and Mint are at least proper English words with mildly positive associations. Cinnamon too."
What about 'gnome' ? ;)
74 • @58, 57 - Poor Linux Marketing (by Ron on 2015-03-06 19:50:02 GMT from North America)
"Why did they call it GIMP instead of IMP, Image Manipulation Program? Awful name for a very nice product. And the KDE crowd with all the K-names! People do not want cute, quirky and egomaniacal program names, just simple easy-to-remember program names that give a clue as to what the program does. "
And, of course, Iceweasel wins second place in a common sense duel.
75 • @69 - Spot on! (by Ben Myers on 2015-03-06 19:51:03 GMT from North America)
You are right on target with your observations. What else is there to say?
76 • Android & names (by M.Z. on 2015-03-06 19:52:04 GMT from Planet Mars)
@69 & 70
Not only is #70 is spot on about Mate, but the whole KDE doesn't make sense to me either. It's an acronym just like FBI, TSA, NSA, DOD, etc., which are exceedingly common for US government agencies & should be easy for most people to figure out. Heck Cadillac has nearly given up on proper names like Eldorado & Seville in favour of acronym mush like CTS & ATS, & it should be far less of an issue in computers than cars.
I don't think Android is really analogous to desktop Linux, it is far more locked down & controlled by Google than most versions of Desktop Linux. Even if it can be replaced by CyanogenMod or Ubuntu Mobile, the average smart phone customer expects to never install an OS on their phone. It is also the case that Android came into a market with little competition aside from iOS & helped shape a new market while being put in front of millions of potential consumers by a coalition of Google & numerous hardware makers & cellular carriers. I don't see any similar coalition appearing around more generic versions of Linux on the PC, though there are Chrome OS laptops & small hardware vendors like Zareason. I would maintain that you won't see to many open source OSs for sale in retail stores or at major online retailers to the same extent that you do with Windows, because most savvy users will migrate to the best free (as in no cost) alternative. There is less opportunity to make money in the PC side of Linux than there was in smart phones when Android came out because the dynamics are so different. There are also now far more established players in the smart phone market, so I don't think Ubuntu mobile will be much more successful than the numerous small Linux vendors are in the PC market. I think both the PC market & smart phone market are coalescing around a few big players, making it far harder for Linux based OS makers to infuse competition while making money. I would like to see more competition in both PCs and smart phones & more open source players, but I don't think that is very likely because the core players are established as are the core app stores/software vendors. I don't think many people will want to develop for tiny platforms like Ubuntu phone, & lack of apps will hinder market share, as it has with lack of big game & software makers for desktop Linux. Things may change slowly, but nothing as disruptive as Android seems likely to appear in the smart phone or desktop market any time soon due to the underling conditions.
77 • MATE (by frodopogo on 2015-03-06 22:06:08 GMT from North America)
That depends on how you read it- it it an acronym, however. So in that sense, it's not a word.
I tend to read it with a silent final "e", like the English word meaning "partner":
Because Cinnamon is a spice and Mint is a tea, it's natural to think of MATE as the tea, but since it's a different project, I don't think it is... or is it?
Yes, the codecs are part of it, but the basic default similarity to the Windows layout has always been a draw for me. My brain is practically hardwired by now that programs are controlled at the top of the screen, and the OS and desktop at the bottom. No relearning required. Yes, you can reset that, but a noob isn't going to know how to do that.
Also, Ubuntu chose brown as the default color... and green and blue are my favorites! ;^D
I could be wrong, but, judging from popular choices, a lot of people agree with me on that. Again, it can be changed, but the less changes you require of a noob at the beginning, the better. (I'm not one of those that likes the GREY default background of Mint.)
I also think the Mint team has a stronger sense of beauty and esthetics than your average bunch of programmers, and this has come into play more and more over the years. Apple has been a big influence in this regard- whatever you might not like about Apple products, they have a strong focus on esthetics, and that HAS helped them sell products. Windows actually doesn't... at least when it comes to colors! Windows 8 just about made me want to vomit looking at it!
Partial concession on KDE.... yeah... there are a lot of three letter acronyms. That doesn't mean they are easy. I remember when I was learning German... I like to read the news, and mostly news makes for easy reading, but with all the German political parties being 3 letter acronmyms, it took a LONG time before I could sort them out- it was a steep learning curve. Sure, the Germans are used to that, so KDE is no big deal for them. Lately I'm having to pause and think about things in US news like DHS. Then you have a lot of chemicals with 3 letter acronyms. However, I'll take KDE over xfce. Remember those there are a fair number of people with dyslexic tendencies. I am more dyscalculic (transpose numbers) than dyslexic, but if it's not an actual word, yeah, I can scramble letters too. So I was often coming up with "xcfe" instead of "xfce". And beginning all the programs with K is still inexcusable.
Gnome is somewhat pronounceable, but it has the silent G which would be a problem for non-native speakers. Also, it reminds me of the word "gremlin" which was an aeronautics expression that was the equivalent of "bug" in the computer world.
Any kind of "little people" tend to be associated with mischief.
(actually that would go for "IMP" too!)
It's generally associated with magic and alchemy... that kind of thing seems to appeal strongly to the game-playing geek subculture, but not the general public.
Yes, I know it's a tradition in Unix/Linux from the early days.
So one of those names is only going to attract the people to Linux who are already likely to be Linux users. That's not exactly reaching out.... it's part of the Linux in-group mentality.
78 • MATE (by Mark on 2015-03-07 00:13:39 GMT from North America)
@77 "That depends on how you read it- it it an acronym, however. So in that sense, it's not a word.
I tend to read it with a silent final "e", like the English word meaning 'partner'"
Actually, it is not an acronym, but was specifically named for the southern South American drink "mate" (pronounced MAH-teh, rhymes with latte), the project having been created and named by an Argentine programmer. I don't think at the beginning that it had any connection with Linux Mint but by now Mint is, I think, one of the contributors to the project.
79 • Mate, etc. (by linuxista on 2015-03-07 02:51:58 GMT from North America)
Right, it's not an acronym. I don't know where the convention of all-caps came from. It might just be meant to signal a desktop environment, as those tend to be capitalized whether words or acronyms.
I actually like the lack of marketing finess in the free software world. I think it's charming and international, and you actually learn some things like the meaning of "ubuntu" in Bantu and the name of the most popular caffeinated beverage in the Southern Cone.
Also, the whole thing where geeky developers get to name their projects whatever they want is more organic and less commercial.
One of the reasons I love free software is the haven from that constant marketing mindset of people trying to influence you with slickness and gimmicks.
80 • Mate and ... (by Mark on 2015-03-07 03:55:22 GMT from North America)
I agree with you, linuxista! I enjoy the variety of names given to projects and applications (most of the Mate components have Spanish names in keeping with the Argentine origins of the name Mate itself, keeping the tradition going). I don't think all the varied names of things in Linux, often reflecting their origins, scare anyone away. The eclectic origins and names reflect contributions from the worldwide Linux community, and I rather like that.
Early in the days of MATE I exchanged a few messages with its creator, Perberos, seeking clarification from him on the proper pronunciation of the word. (People were pronouncing it MAH-teh, mah-TAY, or the English Mate.) He always wrote it MATE and since Spanish doesn't use accents when the letters are capitalized, the proper pronunciation was unclear. He made it clear it was the Spanish word (MAH-teh and not mah-TAY) but always wrote it MATE, so the convention of all-caps came from Perberos himself. It was his choice, so that's how it is written to this day: written MATE, and pronounced MAH-teh.
81 • MATE and marketing (by frodopogo on 2015-03-07 07:46:09 GMT from North America)
Okay.... I stand (or sit) corrected- Mah-TAY it is!
I can KIND OF see what you mean. There is a certain geeky charm that you could call "organic" in a lot of distros. I find the Linux community AS IS rather interesting. I'm not in any way suggesting that it go away. I'm a bit of a geek myself, just not really a computer geek. But I'm not a typical Windows refugee.
Windows is broken as far as security goes.
Macs are way too expensive.
Windows machines tend to get tossed after about 5 years when really, they still have quite a lot of life left in them. Tossing a working computer in a landfill is an ecological CRIME.
Putting Linux on them is a logical solution, since it runs WELL on PC hardware. I have family and friends I COULD turn on to Linux, but I've got too much going on in my life to hold their hands and guide them every step of the way. There IS a need for a more friendly Linux that doesn't have quite as many booby-traps for noobs (nooby traps? ;^D)
And there really needs to be a website devoted to "easy" Linux versions.
One of the keys to this is that to reach or teach beginners in ANY field, you have to remember what it was like for you in the beginning, and remember the actual steps you took. The tendency for many people when they try to explain a subject is that they condense the steps that it took for them to get where they are now, and so they underestimate the difficulty. I got an early lesson in this- my father was an accountant, and good at math. But he wasn't a good at teaching me math... he couldn't backtrack in his mind to remember what it was like as a beginner, so he could explain things better to a beginner.
As far as Linux, take Terminal, for instance. What you are doing when you learn to use the Terminal, is, in effect LEARNING A NEW LANGUAGE, and one that is VERY precise and allows no errors! I'm in the USA, and most Americans tend to be VERY poor at learning new languages. So realistically, any Linux distro that requires much knowledge of Terminal is BROKEN as far as reaching ordinary Americans. I'll leave it to you who live in other countries to judge if learning Terminal is realistic for most of your family and neighbors.
Aside from avoiding Terminal, a noob friendly Linux has to have a good, painless installation program (at least as good as Ubuntu's) and an intuitive software repository (Again, I think Ubuntu has the lead there), and making Linux work like their previous operating system has to be relatively simple.... like check a single box! Really, not much more work has to be done. It would be a shame to stop short of the goal.
Compared to those things, yeah, the names are relatively trivial issues, but they are so easily fixed it would be a shame not to fix them. For instance, really the menu choice should be File Manager, not Nemo, Caja (or whatever). Nemo and Caja and such should be a code names that developers use to talk about the comparative virtues of different file managers, not something you inflict on end users, especially noobs. Perhaps the code name could be put in at the end in parentheses or small print.
Actually, it's not so much a matter of MARKETING as that Linux developers need to test their distro designs on genuine noobs.... not just advanced Linux geeks!
82 • @81 MATE and marketing (by mandog on 2015-03-07 10:07:09 GMT from South America)
Can you please explain this strange terminal language you talk about, And please don't talk of average people being illiterate come on. I'm dyslexic the terminal does not frighten me, The hardest installer is Ubuntu as like windows it tries to take over your computer. This is Linux it is not windows or Apple, If its to hard then use windows or Apple the more Linux becomes a Windows clone the more insecure it gets. It is very user friendly its users that refuse to learn, when you buy a new phone everybody is raving about you don't have a problem with learning so why try to chance Linux,
Windows is the most popular simply through being installed from with virtually every new comp/laptop its as simple as that + because Linux is mainly free there are no real figures only from MS/apple sponsored sources which are not accurate.
For instance I have 2 laptops both came with Windows as it was cheaper than paying not to have windows installed they were both instantly wiped clean and Arch Linux installed but acording to Ms that is 2 sales for them?
83 • Linux without terminal (by Euler on 2015-03-07 11:51:52 GMT from Europe)
I think you can use Linux without using the terminal. You can even use Linux or Windows if you are afraid of the system settings, and many people do so. The real problem is that people are used to their programs that are win only. Yes there or often alternatives but it takes time to find them and get used to them. As long as schools teach Microsoft, Microsoft will stay on the top.
You only have to use the terminal if you run into problems, like unsupported hardware, and search solution online. In this case copy paste is usually enough, you do not need to understand the commands.
84 • @81, 82, aand 83 (by Thomas Mahoney on 2015-03-07 13:24:25 GMT from North America)
I'm an American and I've been at this a long time, I'm not an expert but I have been under the hood many times. I started out with Linux when it wasn't for the light heart-ed, back when GUI was a place you could only go after a lot of Terminal work, back when your OS booted to a Command Prompt. And before Linux, and before Windows 3.0 I was using DOS. Yes I have difficulty learning languages, my own included (flunked them all in school :))) ), but the Terminal is like that beautiful woman you can't take your eyes off of. I love it, and the more I have to use it the better I like it. I don't have it's language memorized, but I know what I want to do with it and I have books at my fingertips to show me how. But I do like a mix of GUI and Terminal. I actually get bored with something that works out of the box. I use my computer, but tinkering is what I like to do, so nothing stays permanent for very long with my stuff. I'm always tinkering.
85 • MATE (by linuxista on 2015-03-07 15:46:14 GMT from North America)
@80 Mark: Thanks for the add'l info on the origins. One thing though, while it is true (or at least optional) that "... Spanish doesn't use accents when the letters are capitalized...", the word "mate" doesn't have an accent in Spanish in any case, lower or upper.
86 • Manjaro Linux KDE 0.9 Pre3(Plasma) (by Muthu on 2015-03-07 17:19:23 GMT from Asia)
I have installed Latest Manjaro KDE yesterday. It is smooth and fast. It supports Flash Drive also. I have copied a 20 GB file to my Seagate Flash Drive. It copied that 20GB file at a speed of 25 to 28MB/Sec. This is the first time iam seeing a Linux Distro(OS) copies a file from computer to a flash Drive this much faster. Usually all Linux distros copies a file from computer to a flash drive at a speed of 14 to 15MB/Sec. Kudos Manjaro.If updates dont break the distros, Linux Distros may beat MS Windows or MAC OS one day. I have lost sound(Audio Not working in Computer) during an update to my Manjaro Linux XFCE(Version 0.8.11).Linux Mint is always stable. But Mint does not look as good as Manjaro Linux(Gorgeous Green Theme).Iam happy with the Latest Manjaro KDE 0.9pre3(Plasma Version). I want everybody to have a look at Latest Manjaro's KDE.
87 • Manjaro Linux KDE 0.9 Pre3(Plasma) (by Thomas Mahoney on 2015-03-07 17:37:08 GMT from North America)
@86. Isn't it awesome? Best pre I've seen so far. Nice jump to the forefront with Plasma 5 by Manjaro. Not everything in the box for me, but yaort found everything I needed. Kudos to that. The other beta versions left me pretty but most stuff broke. I ran Mint for a long time and always went back to it after checking other stuff out. My Mint iso is about to hit the trash, and Manjaro is going to be my fall back when other stuff doesn't work ( may not be any other stuff). Manjaro took a huge successful leap here for me. I have returned to Mint from other versions of Manjaro.
88 • MATE (by Mark on 2015-03-07 23:12:37 GMT from North America)
@81 Frodopogo: You're probably just joking, but no, it is not mah-TAY; it is MAH-teh. The accent is definitely on the first syllable.
@85 Linuxista: Right, the word "mate" doesn't require a written accent. But there were those who would not accept the correct pronunciation without Perberos clarifying it, so he needed to write it in a way that was unambiguous. He did, and that was that.
89 • terminal rarely necessary (by M.Z. on 2015-03-08 03:56:19 GMT from Planet Mars)
I agree with #83, the terminal is far from a necessity for average users on Linux these days, & it's usually just a special fix to a problem pasted from the forums when it is a necessity. I know some basic commands & use them as needed, but not often. One of the few programs that I've found needed the command line to launch was scan tool for diagnosing my check engine light with a device that plugs into my laptop. I had to scratch my head a few times & do a little searching before I realized I needed to type sudo scantool into the terminal for it to work properly; however, most folks blindly ask their mechanic to fix their cars anyway, so hardly an issue for average users. Most of my terminal use has bee cut & paste from the forums to fix an issue, & the rest was doing some incidental side thing that I was interested in doing from the command line or something simply done because I like to play with stuff & that was the way to do it. It does create quick & universal cut & paste solutions to problems on the forums, so I think the command line is a net win for average users even if it can be intimidating the first couple of times you use it.
90 • Sabayon (by hotdiggettydog on 2015-03-08 07:08:17 GMT from Europe)
I have not use Sabayon in years and years. I really liked it in the early years. It lost its steam some time ago. I can remember updated versions every month or two was the norm.
I could say the same about Gentoo. Not so much hype anymore and hardly no news.
91 • knoppix (by bob on 2015-03-08 10:08:12 GMT from Europe)
Anyone run Knoppix anymore?
92 • Knoppix (by linuxista on 2015-03-08 14:58:28 GMT from North America)
I do. It's still a great distro to write to a USB stick with permanence. You get 4 gigs of apps, various desktops, and it all works great and will boot up on almost any machine. Very handy for rescuing systems or traveling and plugging into other people's computers. I do not install it to HDD and I don't update it. (It uses a mix of Debian distros with certain apps pinned, and you're just asking for dependency conflicts eventually.)
93 • Knoppix (by Rev_Don on 2015-03-08 18:10:28 GMT from North America)
Sure do. It's my go to Live USB/DVD distro. My biggest problem is they don't seem to be releasing the CD version any longer. I regularly have to deal with older systems that can't boot from USB and don't have DVD drives so I'm forced to use older versions on them.
They also had a lot of bugs on the 7.4x releases that they have shown no interest in fixing. But it's still the best at what it does.
Number of Comments: 93
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