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1 • New Publishing Time (by Al on 2015-01-05 01:28:58 GMT from United States) |
I like it! It helps me get my DistroWatch fix sooner. Nice!
2 • PCLinuxOS: Love it! (by Doug on 2015-01-05 01:59:49 GMT from Australia)
Just wish to thank the capable people at PCLinuxOS. This system has now become a stable (as far asd I am concerned) OS that is easy to use & manage. I have been a happy user for quite a while now. Recently I needed a program to access my phone: requested it, & next thing there it was! Love the support.
Keep up the good work!
PCLOS is a good candidate for inexperienced users. It also has a useful monthly magazine, great for tutorials or advice.
regards, a Happy PCLOS User.
3 • Systemd binary logs (by vw72 on 2015-01-05 02:38:14 GMT from United States)
I don't quite understand the problem with the binary logs. Straight text files still need a program to access them, whether cat, less, cp or an editor of some sort. How is that any different than using the viewer for systemd? After all, whether text or binary, it's all stored as ones and zeros and needs to be converted by a program to be read or printed.
BTW, as for the new publishing time, I like it!
4 • New Publishing time (by Platypus on 2015-01-05 03:18:03 GMT from Australia)
"We hope the early risers among you will join us each Monday morning with coffee (or other breakfast beverage) in hand..."
Now I know the Americas are the centre of the world - no wait - the universe, but in Australia we have been up working hard while all the Americans are still sleeping. Ha! that means a couple of things: 1) We get a visit from Santa first 2) we begin the new year first and 3) we get to read DistroWatch first thing Monday morning. It's a great move because now I don't have to wait until Tuesday to read.
PS Great explanation on systemd.
5 • Systemd. Again. Oh God. But anyway... (by Davidnotcoulthard on 2015-01-05 03:23:24 GMT from Indonesia)
The "Goes against the UNIX philosophy" argument is bloody ridiculous.
Did anybody complain when people went against GNU's philosohpy (i.e. the OS actually being used), when developers started putting non-free software in the system?
Few people did. And those who did are viewed today as, in some ways, radicals, according to my observation. And yet those who say that Systemd is bad "because it goes against the UNIX philosophy" can claim to be using a valid argument, probably whilst using non-free programmes in their systems?
I'd rather see Yuji Ide win the World Championship.
(Oh, and GNU's philosophy is definitely more than a mere suggestion. By far).
6 • More Rolling Distros? (by Alan on 2015-01-05 03:41:37 GMT from United States)
How about Pisi Linux? The developers are trying hard to maintain the old Pardus spirit, and it probably deserves more attention.
paldo and 0linux are also interesting, but more niche offerings.
7 • Further Reviews (by Alan on 2015-01-05 04:10:02 GMT from United States)
Addition to #6: Void Linux is another candidate.
A good Live Distro to review is AUSTRUMI. It still has the best FVWM desktop I have ever seen.
8 • Going against the UNIX philosophy (by Henrique Rodrigues on 2015-01-05 05:45:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
systemd does not go against the UNIX philosophy. If that's the case, then GNU coreutils also goes against the UNIX philosophy. You know, one package, multiple binaries, no shell scripting...
systemd is mostly an umbrella project with many small projects underneath it, including the init system called systemd. All the components are quite small and can be replaced by alternatives, if needed, although no one has done it so far. I'm assuming alternatives are not needed and that's fine.
Regarding systemd's binary logs, you can still access them using text mode tools and absolutely nothing prevents you from disabling binary logs and having text mode logs only. But there's added value in having binary logs as well: accountability. Everyone, including a malicious user, can tamper and change text files. Not so with binary logs.
Please don't dismiss systemd because you heard somewhere that X, Y and Z are true. They might not be. And no, I'm not a systemd fanboy, I just don't like to hear the same misconceptions being repeated over and over again.
9 • Good review (by Smellyman on 2015-01-05 07:05:21 GMT from Taiwan)
Love me some Manjaro. I used Arch for years, but have moved to Manjaro just for some of their ease of use and tools they provide.
One niggle though, KaOS isn't based on Arch. It is independant.
10 • Great publishing time ! (by Frederic Bezies on 2015-01-05 08:45:42 GMT from France)
It is good to get my distrowatch weekly so early on monday morning !
@6 : paldo is a great little distribution. Even if they're using a mono based package tool.
0linux ? Will be useful to french speaking user, as it is in french only. I know about this, I tested it back in 2011 or 2012 :)
@7 : One rolling without systemd for systemd """haters""". It uses runit and it is a great distribution, even if I'm not a big fan of xbps package tool.
@8 : I think everybody will still hear this and other "please trash systemd" arguments this year again.
@9 : It only uses archlinux tools like pacman. Like Chakra in some ways.
11 • PCLinuxOS highly recommended (by Tony on 2015-01-05 08:49:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have to agree with Doug, I tried lots of other excellent distros like mint and Puppy but I always end up using PCLinuxOS for the day to day running of my business and have done so for the last 6 years.
Stable, large set of apps, fast, very helpful and friendly forum.
12 • SystemD (by TinfoilHatLinuxUser on 2015-01-05 09:50:03 GMT from United States)
I Dont trust it, not yet anyway, I will wait and see what comes of it, if the Fears are unfounded then SystemD will survive, if their is enough truth to the criticizem then i believe there will be more forks in the next year or two
13 • Devuan (by Paraquat on 2015-01-05 09:57:03 GMT from Taiwan)
I know we've beat the systemd debate to death, so I don't want to resurrect it. At this point, most people have made up their minds. So my main interest at this point is not to convince anyone that I'm right (I'm anti-systemd, for those who don't already know), but rather to look at the alternatives.
Like Distrowatch, my temporary solution is to not "upgrade." Currently, I'm using Ubuntu 14.04 as my main workhorse desktop distro, which still relies on Upstart for init purposes. I was using Ubuntu 14.10 (which also runs Upstart), but went back to 14.04 to make sure that an update didn't suddenly leave me with a systemd desktop without asking. But this "solution" is only a temporary fix - unless Mark Shuttleworth has a change of heart, Ubuntu has systemd set in its sights.
I've been experimenting with other distros. At the moment, I give PCLinuxOS my highest rating as a non-systemd distro. It's not flawless though - there are a few packages missing from their repositories that I sorely miss, but that won't be an issue for everybody. A few packages I was able to compile from source, but there are a couple more that won't compile due to dependency problems. So even though I'm 98% satisfied with PCLinuxOS, it needs to advance a little more to make me happy.
Slackware is non-systemd and works well as a server. For desktop, Salix is a good Slackware-based distro that has package management. But it's lacking quite a few packages that I really need. Still, it's very usable, and is worth considering.
Gentoo - ah, so near and yet so far. Great package management, big repository, but the compiling can drive one mad. Only suitable for people with a very fast machine. But it's certainly a great distro in many ways. Unfortunately, the premier Gentoo-based pre-compiled distro, Sabayon, has decided to go with systemd.
Still not tested yet - Void Linux. But it's on my list.
Which brings me to Devuan. I've subscribed to their mailing list, and I'm very excited to test their first alpha release which might be forthcoming in about a month. I've been in the Debian/Ubuntu camp for many years now, so I have great hopes for Devuan. I'm even going to do something I seldom do, and contribute money to the project.
14 • Korora and Simplicity editions (by Justiniano on 2015-01-05 10:06:07 GMT from Philippines)
Kudos to Korora and Simplicity for their timely beta releases. Looking forward to the full editions of Korora for robust workstation and Simplicity for everyday applications.
15 • @#13 (by TinfoilHatLinuxUser on 2015-01-05 10:22:07 GMT from United States)
CentOS-6.6 is still supported and does not use SystemD, but CentOS-7.x does use SystemD, i put it on a laptop and it runs good enough for daily casual use, i may change to some other distro later on but so far CentOS is working nice enough for my purposes, i will keep an eye on Devuan and i know trusty old Slackware will stick with it's BSD style init scripts
16 • @12 more forks and more users ? Or more wasted resources ? (by Frederic Bezies on 2015-01-05 10:25:31 GMT from France)
I can understand your fear. I'm using systemd on my archlinux since october 2012. So, I'm a big bad user :)
Only time will tell us if there will be more forks. But all those forks are wasting resources. Instead of proposing one or two alternative to systemd, like runit and OpenRC, I think some coders will say : "Hey ! I've the true alternative to systemd" and spent money, time, and resources in dead-end projects.
Wheezy will stay supported until spring or summer 2016. What will Devuan look like in 18 months ? Will it be alive ?
17 • UNIX philosophy and systemd (by jb on 2015-01-05 11:01:43 GMT from Poland)
This questions is very well answered in this Distrowatch report:
Updates from Devuan
Now, compare that to systemd's "solution" of hijacking udev and forcing other distros to
fork it in self-defense (see: udev, vdev, uselessd, etc).
The maliciousness and technical blunders of systemd is beyond any doubt.
Anybody who cared to follow systemd discussions on lwn.net should be clear about it.
18 • Alternatives that lack systemd (by Davidnotcoulthard on 2015-01-05 11:17:32 GMT from Indonesia)
@13 BSDs will also serve you rather well, I reckon. It ain't GNU, though (but I don't think you (should) care about that).
19 • Torrents (by Terence on 2015-01-05 11:18:36 GMT from United States)
This is something I am grateful that Distrowatch has stepped up to do. I know in the case of Kaos, it's aggravating when I want to download a distro, but cannot download in a timely fashion.
Thanks again for offering this service.
20 • @16: (by dragonmouth on 2015-01-05 12:22:51 GMT from United States)
"But all those forks are wasting resources"
Don't you think that the 285 active distros in DW database and 270 others on the waiting list is not a vast waste of resources?! Why can't the Linux Community limit the number of distros to a few dozen? Because one of the major tenets of Linux is CHOICE. So, in the name of CHOICE, Linux has become Balkanized and is getting more so every day. At this point, the waste of resources from a few more forks due to systemd alternatives is not going to matter.
21 • @18, @16 (by Paraquat on 2015-01-05 13:26:02 GMT from Taiwan)
"BSDs will also serve you rather well, I reckon. It ain't GNU, though (but I don't think you (should) care about that)."
Yes, I'm keeping PC-BSD on my short list of non-systemd OSs to try. I should have mentioned that, so thanks for pointing it out.
"Only time will tell us if there will be more forks. But all those forks are wasting resources. Instead of proposing one or two alternative to systemd, like runit and OpenRC, I think some coders will say : "Hey ! I've the true alternative to systemd" and spent money, time, and resources in dead-end projects."
Basically, there are three init systems that are likely systemd alternatives: runit, OpenRC and sysvinit. All three don't step on each other's toes - you could easily replace sysvinit with OpenRC or runit without forking a distro. That isn't the case with systemd which is riddled from top to bottom with dependencies, which is why a complete fork is necessary to get rid of it.
And the sad thing is, these dependencies aren't necessary. It's only there because the systemd developers want to play hard ball and force everyone to use their system and their system only. The uselessd project is essentially an attempt by one developer to create a systemd without the dependencies, and I wish him luck though I think he's swimming against the tide (or tsunami).
So if you want to complain about "wasted resources," I suggest you place the blame on those who caused the problem in the first place. Hint: it's not the Devuan folks.
22 • PCLinuxOS (by Eric P on 2015-01-05 13:29:09 GMT from United States)
I remember a time when I used PCLinuxOS way back and the biggest issue I had was the developers telling me that if I wanted to use the system for development (with a few recent packages), I was basically out of luck due to that not being their use case. I understand the sentiment, but remember feeling that the response was pretty weak and unprofessional.
I remember being put off by the response that I got at the time, but I also remember it being a solid OS for day to day use. One of my favorites at the time as I recall.
23 • slackware a good alternative for me (by kennedy on 2015-01-05 14:13:39 GMT from )
Fear of systemd has made (forced) me sit down and learn how slackware works. I am surprised that working with slackbuilds to get the packages that I need for my daily use is not that hard. I now have a system that is very similar to what I have always had in Debian and Centos.
24 • Torrents Table (by vaithy on 2015-01-05 14:28:29 GMT from India)
Thanks for providing Torrents link.. If the link is provided in separate Tab or page , it might help many.. as readers are not going expect clik the link in the middle of the page while reading..
25 • About waste of resources. (by Frederic Bezies on 2015-01-05 14:56:43 GMT from France)
@20 : I think on waiting list, you can remove at least 10 to 20 entries. Cleaning up this waiting list is time consuming but useful.
Forks related to "no-systemd" and new "no-systemd init" will add a little waste. Choices ? Too many choices will afraid new users. They will ask themselves : Why is there so many distributions ? Why is there nearly 300 ? It is like asking why is there so much spoken languages on Earth ?
@21 : What about upstart ? Is it already dead ? Is there no more linux distributions using it ?
Who to blame about wasting resources ? To ubuntu-based forks creator ? To people who are not speaking english, spanish, french, german, hindi and chinese ?
Devuan is another fork. Only time will tell how it will survive besides Debian and other main distributions.
26 • Simplicity X uses KDE 4, not KDE 3 (by Andy on 2015-01-05 15:29:40 GMT from United States)
According to comments at Simplicity's website, the "X" version uses KDE 4, not KDE 3 or Trinity. The KDE 3 mention was a "typo".
27 • My loves (by Bederic Frezies on 2015-01-05 15:45:11 GMT from Canada)
I have a poster of Lennart above my bed, he's so dreamy, and of course, I also love systemd.
28 • Slackware, systemd (by Gerald E. P. Morris on 2015-01-05 15:55:13 GMT from United States)
Having used a systemd based rolling release distro, Arch, on an ARM based device in my home network, and having Slackware on the rest of my machines, I 've had plenty experience with systemd and assure all still tormented by doubt: CHOOSE SLACK!
Slackware offers a CLEAN, TRANSPARENT UI which any literate person can follow after an hours initial study, giving the user a reliable operating system WHOLLY under the user's control, not that of malicious corporate employees hired to excrete mal-coded binaries which undermine UNIX, GNU and even basic sound engineering philosophy and practice.
29 • General things (by Corbin Rune on 2015-01-05 16:45:25 GMT from United States)
I'd agree with Jesse that Manjaro tends to be a pretty decent system to work with.
(Had it on my machine for months, although I recently went back to base Arch.)
As far as GUI package management goes, there are always other options. Although, in my own case, I tend to stick with the command line, pacman's plenty to handle business. (Athough for anything AUR, I'd have to say go old-school, and learn to work with makepkg first, then mess with an AUR helper once you've learned biz a bit.)
As far as @28, and the systemd bit in general: Hell, while I can see the urge to go for Slack or something else that defaults to non-systemd, it's not as if Arch can't be made to work with an alternate init system. (I won't speak for Debian or its descendants ... considering I've not used 'em in a while.)
30 • Systemd (by Cray XMP on 2015-01-05 16:46:35 GMT from France)
Systemd is not about choice but is a corporate interest from Red Hat forced down people's throats.
In the guise of standardization it is an attack on diversity which reminds me of 'Embrace, extend and ex...'
Since Canonical is hooked to Debian (as a fork) and Debian TC seems to be mostly from Red Hat, the die is cast from Debian derivatives.
All the RHEL clones will fall in line by design and ... CentOS has already been gobbled up, despite its community !
Systemd is far more than an init alternative as it invades GNU/Linux with its growing prerogatives and dependencies. It is becoming a product bundling with no way out.
A single entity is in charge thanks to its massive ressources : Red Hat. It is M$ all over again.
I despised M$ attitude and abandoned their ecosystem many years ago. I thought of Linux as a safe haven so I, for one , would not let things go and stand still.
Definitely, corporate interests are not user interests. Any alternative that brings back choice is a necessity for GNU/Linux.
31 • systemd from an under-tinfoil hat perspective (by jg on 2015-01-05 17:09:14 GMT from Poland)
IMHO systemd provides en entry point for introducing into linux capabilities or functionalities similar in their end result to .exe files in Windows. After the recent Snowden revelations, we all know that looking for a patched and safe Windows system is unrealistic - the system is designed precisely in a way to be always open for external intervention. So who may need such functionality? Obviously all those biggest corporations and governments which are now fed up with Microsoft milking them so much more each and every year while there is less and less to go around. The big corporations, monopolists, government agencies they all must have systems that guarantee that all their users can be always monitored and if the need be, blocked out. There is no way a corporation will knowingly allow theft of intellectual property - and this is a chance for Red Hat to finally provide a product that offers both real security from external attacks and ability to monitor and spy on users the way a particular Big Brother sees fit. Then of course is the issue of making systemd so complex and riddled with dependencies so as to get rid of any competition by making them incomapatible. As in the case of the Heartbleed bug, who will have the time to review the 2122650973rd version of systemd to check if its all 2599 functionalites or subsystems are really needed to speed up the boot time
and by all means do not use systemd internal web browser but for strictly business purposes?
32 • The evil corporations (by far2fish on 2015-01-05 17:10:29 GMT from Denmark)
"[...] not that of malicious corporate employees hired to excrete mal-coded binaries [...]"
I have never understood this argument. A lot of the work done in the open source community are done by corporations. A few well known examples:
1. LibreOffice which was forked from Open Office, which was previously known as Star Office, and its origin was StarWriter, a commercial product written 30 years ago.
2. Firefox. The Mozilla project started when the Netscape Navigator became open source.
3. Linux kernel contributions from Red Hat, Google and Intel - just to mention some of the top names.
You can argue that LibreOffice was forked because the way Oracle treated OpenOffice after purchasing Sun, or that Google kernel development for Android devices happens on its own timetables.
But apart from SCO Linux attempts to patent Linux, I can't recall any situations where corporations have have any negative effect on contribution.
33 • Here we go again... (by Frederic Bezies on 2015-01-05 17:45:05 GMT from France)
@27 : besides trolling, what is your point here, Cykodrone ? You're so predictable... You know what ? You're the worst troll I've seen since 1997, on my first internet day. Besides bashing people, what is your contribution in Free Software world ?
@28 : "Having used a systemd based rolling release distro, Arch, on an ARM based device in my home network, and having Slackware on the rest of my machines, I 've had plenty experience with systemd and assure all still tormented by doubt: CHOOSE SLACK!"
It is true that there is only ARM hardware nowadays :)
@30 : again, big bad Red Hat and good old other distributions ? Tell me how much RH-based distributions are listed on Distrowatch : 10 ; Fedora-based ? 23 (RHEL and CentOS are in it)
And how many Ubuntu-based one ? 67... So, big bad RH ? Well not really. So just use any free BSDs, you won't have big bad RH pulling you a gun against your head and threatening you to use Systemd.
@31 : Just a question. Systemd is LGPL v2 licensed, or am I wrong ? So, any pressure from governments and any others lobbies to insert backdoor code could be seen, couldn't it ?
@32 : Well said. But you know, you can say anything, some people won't hear it.
By the way, I won't post anymore in this thread of comments. Both zealot sides (like Cykodrone) just want war. I will help distrowatch by looking at dead distributions in waiting list.
34 • UEFI (by UEFI booting on 2015-01-05 18:11:20 GMT from United States)
I want to boot a LiveCD or install DVD for a Linux distro, but I cannot make it boot. It is UEFI based and I try legacy bios, but It does not boot. IT just goes straight into windows. How can I deal with UEFI. Is there any idiots guide to UEFI? Thanks in advance.
35 • @33 (by jg on 2015-01-05 18:11:51 GMT from Poland)
The value of this free discussion is to point out possible threats to free expression as some of us may seem to discern in systemd. LGPL v2 or any other is no guarantee in and of itself - if the system is GPL licensed but designed to spy on the user, what will you do? Re-design it? Do you have the time? Resources to sustain you in your maintenance work throughout the 100th version? Be realistic, but by all means do not loose your faith in humanity.
36 • choices of init (by Job on 2015-01-05 18:15:52 GMT from United States)
I believe every distro should keep all inits in their repos. If a distro chooses to make one init a default it should also provide info on how to replace it.
37 • and_why_not? (by gee7 on 2015-01-05 18:21:15 GMT from United States)
"Don't you think that the 285 active distros in DW database and 270 others on the waiting list is not a vast waste of resources?!
Why can't the Linux Community limit the number of distros to a few dozen?"
would you curtail the pleasure that thousands of users get from messing about with operating systems?
Perhaps you would also like to ban the production of commercial films, except for the most profitable 20 which are usually produced by the USA?
Or limit the number of companies that are able to sell rice? Or ban people from starting their own charities?
Generally speaking, there is little liking for control freaks in the Linux world (and perhaps that is one of the reasons why some people distrust systemd).
Sometimes I spend a few hours using Momomga Linux, which stands at number 258 in Distrowatch ratings, and I have found it to be an operating system that has never crashed or had bugs.
I also have installed gNewSense which stands at 166, and at one time this was my most used operating system, and I did all of my work on it.
I keep Haiku installed, which is at number 162 in the ratings, although I rarely use it, and in this case it is just to keep an eye on how the system is developing.
Having the freedom to use and enjoy different operating systems is one of the major elements that makes the open-source software movement so interesting.
38 • @ tinfoil hat types (by M.Z. on 2015-01-05 18:29:52 GMT from )
I can understand some healthy skepticism about the place of corporate heavyweights in the Linux ecosystem, but would it really even exist without their backing? Perhaps some non corporate open source OS could exist as a pale shadow of what Linux has become, but it would be fairly hard to provide constant support & updates without paid workers. I'm glad that Linux has supports that believe in it enough to give away their work, but I think most developers need to make a living & deserve decent pay. Attacking Red Hat like it is MS or Apple is both inaccurate & counterproductive. If the Red Hat folks wanted something that they could truly control, then they picked the wrong platform because GPL projects are forked all the time. Any control that top corporate backers have over Linux would at most be a temporary illusion because of the ability of the community to fork.
Also, if you are afraid of what the code in SystemD or anything else does, well then look int who is auditing the code. If the code is GPL it can be audited. All that is required to prevent backdoor attacks is an audit be an independent third party, so it would be supremely stupid to put anything malicious in GPL software. Not only that but SystemD is both big & controversial, how could you think it won't be audited by friends & enemies alike? If they code had a backdoor or was indecipherable someone would notice just like the OpenBSD folks noticed when they checked out OpenSSL after heartbleed. Given the controversy SystemD likely has been audited by third parties & will be again soon. It's tinfoil hat FUD to act like the code is designed to get you. Give us proof or stop the foolish speculation.
In summation, they community can handle most of the supposed problems with SystemD. Distros are already being forked, & some projects are proving they have a choice be not putting SystemD in their OS. And if any corporate power were stupid enough to use an init system maliciously they would lose all community backing & likely tank in the stock after having their market share destroyed by customer backlash. There is enough openness and transparency in Linux that problems will eventually be brought out & dealt with, if they actually exist.
39 • RE: #34-UEFI (by ChiJoan on 2015-01-05 19:03:28 GMT from United States)
You mention Legacy BIOS, but did not say you adjusted the boot order to USB, CD/DVD, hard disk, or similar. Did you try Mint or others that are said to work with it?
40 • @34 and 39 (by Corbin Rune on 2015-01-05 19:15:03 GMT from United States)
Depends on your BIOS, really. For example, my own box is an ASUS K55N. Unfortunately, no matter what I've tried to live-disk on here, this thing's BIOS will not allow anything but Windows 8 to boot in UEFI Mode. If your BIOS is like that,
you're bashing your head on the wall, trying for a dualboot.
Hell, the one time I managed it on here - months ago, I had to kludge the heck out of things: boot the linux iso in legacy mode, slice W8 down to one partition, gdisk and testdisk from GPT to DOS partitioning. (No, I would NOT do that last on a Win partition you've got important data on ... mine, at the time, was still fresh.)
"Secure" Boot, my nethers.
41 • Choosing a distribution based on systemd (by massysett on 2015-01-05 20:01:30 GMT from United States)
I can understand not liking systemd, but I'm a bit surprised that someone would make it a huge part of the reason they pick a distribution. I like systemd but I use Debian wheezy; I once considered switching to Arch because it has systemd but then I realized that's nuts. I don't sit around all day and start and stop daemons. I get work done. Ultimately whether or not systemd is back there doesn't impact my workflow much. I can understand why distributions are switching to it as the benefits for distro maintainers are huge, but as a user I just don't see why people get so excited about this that they hinge decisions on systemd alone.
42 • Slackware vs. systemd (by Microlinux on 2015-01-05 21:20:08 GMT from France)
As a Slackware user, I need systemd like a fish needs a bicycle.
43 • Deepin Linux (by Rebecca on 2015-01-05 21:59:08 GMT from New Zealand)
I've just tried it out in a VM - and it works fine. The only issue I have right now with it is that the dock is impossible to reconfigure beyond adding and removing icons. Means I'll probably stick to Peach OSI.
Re PClinuxOS - @22 - I still love this distro. Based on old mandriva - and you can remaster it any time you want! There's also no problem with installing development tools on it, for general web, database and utility development.
44 • SystemD on CentOS (by hughesjr on 2015-01-05 22:09:32 GMT from United States)
Of course CentOS-7 has systemd .. it is a rebuild of RHEL-7 source code. CentOS-7 can't be a rebuild of RHEL source code and change something as important as systemd. It then would not be CentOS.
But CentOS-6 will have SysV support until 30 Nov 2020. It also has Gnome-2 and not Gnome-3. With security updates for the lifetime of the distro.
45 • @34 @39 @40 @41 (by JT on 2015-01-05 22:21:20 GMT from United States)
@34 @39 @40
I've got a ASUS K55N, and I was able to get Kubuntu and Fedora (Triple-Boot) onto it. All are using UEFI, although I had to reinstall Win8.1 in order to get UEFI-mode to work properly, it does work, and disable Fast-boot.
In disabling Fast-Boot, and making sure the computer is completely shut-down ('Restart' automatically uses Fast-Boot, and I don't think there is a way to stop it), it keeps Win8/8.1 from Suspending the OS to disk and locking the disk.
As far as guides go, to get things working, I'd suggest this one: (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot). It should work good with Ubuntu-based distros, and it /probably/ wouldn't be much different for other distros (I'd just make sure you know what they're talking about in the guide, before trying to translate to another distro)
From an end-user who runs Ubuntu and Fedora, I completely agree with you. I honestly don't care whether the computer is using Upstart, SysV, or systemd. It doesn't affect how I work, so why would I ever care.
From a system administrator who run CentOS and Ubuntu Servers, I would disagree with you. While you still use the same/similar commands, things are different with different systems. That's not to say I dislike systemd, but different things means more I have to know in order to keep things running smoothly.
For some people, that's a breaking point; for other people, it's not that big of a deal.
46 • sticking with CentOS-6.6 (by RE#44 SystemD and CentOS-6.6 on 2015-01-05 23:03:46 GMT from United States)
at least for the life of this laptop, 2020 is 5 more years, this laptop will be ancient in computer tech years by then
47 • @20 - Too Much Choice! Exactly! (by Ben Myers on 2015-01-06 00:53:28 GMT from United States)
Psychologists have studied the problem of choices. Too many choices are confusing and lead to non-optimal results. One possibility is no choice at all. 400+ distros and counting is way too many. And this remains a serious obstacle to broader acceptance of Linux. Now multiply the number of distros by the numbers of desktops available for each distro and you have the new tower of Babel. And significant wasted duplicated resources.
48 • @34 UEFI & @Jesse (by GoingCrayCray on 2015-01-06 00:59:43 GMT from United States)
In regards to UEFI, check if your Bios, has an option to turn off secure boot. The last time I checked Linux Mint, recommends doing this for UEFI.
*Side note: I really like the new release schedule for DistroWatch.
@Jesse Smith Another fine review, on an excellent rolling release based on Arch. I like how Manjaro, delays updates, a little bit, to be more confident of no breakage.
49 • @8 binary logs (by hsw on 2015-01-06 02:52:18 GMT from Taiwan)
I see systemd as a good thing - anything that handles boot up dependencies and is able to start thing in a correct minimal order is a great idea.
I do have problem with binary log file in that a more complex viewer program is required to display them. As long as this program can be compiled separately and include in various recovery CDs then there should be no problem; probably need a copy of this viewer on BSD systems also.
I do not think that the files being binary will stop anyone modifying them, I seem to remember the viewer simply ignores corrupted records, of course this could easily be detected.
There is another argument that goes "why are you reading log files,you should have a monitoring program to do that". If we have binary logs that can be easily monitored to produce targeted alerts a real advantage over text files.
50 • Manjaro Review (by hsw on 2015-01-06 03:06:54 GMT from Taiwan)
thanks for the interesting review, I also am interested in testing desktop Arch. (I have arch on Raspberry Pi and BeagloBone Black, but these are not running any GUI).
I was going to try Ach directly, but I think I will try Manjaro first as it looks like a good way to get started.
51 • Gnome on Wayland with Fedora 21 (by Andy Prough on 2015-01-06 03:32:36 GMT from )
Gnome on Wayland is working in Fedora 21 now by installing the package gnome-session-wayland-session and logging into the Gnome on Wayland shell.
Pretty interesting experience, as the Wayland programs have some unusual graphical compositing phenomenon. I've been hearing about it for so long, nice to finally get to mess around with it.
Most programs are still running under XWayland, but a few dozen Gnome programs can now run under pure Wayland via the "command GDK_BACKEND=wayland gedit" (replace gedit with whatever package you wish to run). Right now I'm browsing DW on epiphany under Wayland. A listing of the Gnome packages that work is at wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/Applications.
52 • Manjaro review (by Guido on 2015-01-06 08:29:08 GMT from Germany)
Very good review. Manjaro also has a second package manager: PAMAC. This one is easier to use. You can also find orphaned packages with it. It is also important to mention that all Arch packages are first tested and then passed as a big update. And there are also very good community editions with LXDE, OpenBox, FluxBox and many other desktops available.
53 • systemd discussions on lwn.net (by bison on 2015-01-06 17:18:43 GMT from United States)
> Anybody who cared to follow systemd discussions on lwn.net should be clear about it.
The systemd "discussions" on lwn.net were depressing. Until quite recently LWN was the best Linux forum on the Internet, but the level of rancor has increased to the point where I am hesitant to read the comments. I usually come away thinking "that was waste of time." Fortunately the editorial content is as good as ever.
I am wary of systemd, but I don't really dislike the software so much as I dislike the community promoting it.
54 • PC Linux OS (by oldtimer2 on 2015-01-06 17:23:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Been using PCLinuxOS for years and year, off and on.
It is solid, works the way it says it does and I have found the PCLinuxOS's forums to be good, when compared to others, helpful and open.
I regret that no one took over TinyFlux, which was based on PCLinuxOS, as I'd use it more if they had!
55 • Weekly (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-01-06 18:49:02 GMT from United States)
Nice to see the week's newsletter before facing Monday morning! Enhanced Sunday evening ambience.
(The link to your list at LinuxTracker yeilds "ERROR" "You’re not autorized(sic) to access another user’s panel!")
It's burdensome to filter out so much hype at 0pointer.de ... is there a reasoned neutral source of information on this topic?
PiSi Linux is more polished than I expected from a small group.
(Paldo, 0linux and Void seem intriguing too, can one try them out live?)
56 • Your System hook to Systemd or not to Systemd :D (by Thierry N on 2015-01-06 19:57:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry if my explanation is a bit to technical
Coming from Linuxfromscratch philosophy, let me start by my conclusion:
To all LINUX developers around this planet. It is OUR DUTY to make sure that the freedom in development in open source software remains the argument Nr 1. That's said. It is absolutly a must that distributions with the "philosophy" systemd and any other "philosophy" remains BOTH available. It is VERY IMPORTANT that the choice is still existing. They are great ideas behind systemd but not only. I just start to analyses a bit the code of it. Very interesting indeed. Shure one of the argument in systemd adoption was to reduce the use of shell.OK.
How to do all those following actions (and even more) :
- load modules kernel if they are (a binary exist)
- set the date and timezone (binary exist)
- checking of the file system (binary exist)
- the name of the machine (binary exist)
- Mount your harddisk (binary exist)
- Start the dhcp service to get an ip adress from the dhcp server (binary exist)
- Start the console (binary exist)
They are plenty of other actions which have to be done...
Now we have 3 possibilities to do so:
. we reinvent and maintain a new binary to do the job and then replace the existing binary command which has to be maintain.
- we use a "simple binary" which has to be maintain which at the end call up the existing binary command.
- we use a bash script (complicated or not) to call the existing binary command
Up to you
57 • It's a new year, and the holy war continues... (by Milo on 2015-01-06 20:09:31 GMT from Poland)
@30 "...Debian TC seems to be mostly from Red Hat..."
Before people are impugned as Red Hat shills, please check the employment histories of those who were technical committee members at the time of Debian bug #727708. Or did Red Hat slip them cash-filled envelopes under the table?
Can the comments, for the love of FOSS, please be grounded in technical point/counterpoint, or at least valid non-technical considerations? The misinformation and conspiracy theories need to be put to rest. Direct that energy in a productive direction. That doesn't mean accept systemd or refrain from forking Debian, I am not asking anyone to do so, but be the change you wish to see in the world rather than hate others for seeking to realise the changes in which they see promise.
If systemd weighed the same as a duck... it's made of wood.
I've felt the same about DistroWatch comments as of late.
Speaking of parallels, as per the aforementioned, https://lwn.net/Articles/584992/.
58 • Been using systemd for a long while now (by Scott Dowdle on 2015-01-06 22:19:39 GMT from United States)
@17 - Whatever. I've been using systemd for 5+ Fedora releases and it works great for me. It has features I want and use daily. If you don't like it, that's fine. Use whatever you want... but the badmouthing isn't appreciated.
59 • Systemd (by Ron on 2015-01-06 23:32:38 GMT from United States)
I just read the Systemd blog mentioned by DWW. What I am curious about is this almost insidious desire to speed up booting by a few seconds, milliseconds, or in the future perhaps picoseconds. What's the big deal. Really I boot up once or twice a day and willingly allow a few moments to boot knowing full well I now have the cpu cycles all to myself.
Boot down, is that a word? Boot down is more important to me, which seems to take a while also. Boot down is sometimes needed in a hurry, when unplanned sometimes, etc.
So whats with it all?
P.S. be happy its a New Year.
60 • Manjaro (by jo on 2015-01-07 07:05:02 GMT from United Arab Emirates)
Manjaro looks good but the community on IRC channel were rude and horrible. So I just forgot about Manjaro :)
61 • What's wrong with having too many distros? (by Jason Hsu on 2015-01-07 07:29:07 GMT from United States)
Every so often, people complain that there are too many distros. If that's the case, then who are the people you want in the Linux Supreme Court deciding which distros should be eliminated? How would you feel if they voted to eliminate YOUR favorite distro? How much weaker would the Linux community be today if this Linux Supreme Court at one time had decided to eliminate Linux Mint because it was just another Ubuntu derivative?
It's common knowledge that Linux newbies should start with one of the top 10-20 distros. And there is a very good reason that Linux Mint is #1 even though it doesn't have the financial muscle of corporate backing - it's very user-friendly, smooth, and polished. Even though it's not my #1 pick (I prefer something lighter and based on Debian Stable, such as Crunchbang+LXDE or antiX Linux), it's the distro that I recommend to first-time Linux users.
Just because there are hundreds of Linux distros out there doesn't mean you're obligated to try all of them, or even 1% of them. You may even change your mind about a distro that you tried and didn't like. I never liked the DE-less default setup of Crunchbang, but I switched to it because it is lightweight and low maintenance (Debian Stable base instead of Debian Testing). I was able to get a setup to my liking by installing LXDE.
62 • @55 paldo rolling release (by subg on 2015-01-07 07:39:56 GMT from Canada)
Yes, paldo has a live cd/usb. Standard gnome 3 ecosystem, rolling release, unique cli package manager, and (topically) was an early adopter of systemd.
63 • @61 Linux Supreme Court? Ya gotta be kidding. Reality check! (by Ben Myers on 2015-01-07 18:22:02 GMT from United States)
First, in my everyday work, I use specialized Linux distros, and there is good reason why they are specialized. There are specialized ones for troubleshooting, forensics, cloning hard drives, kiosks, media servers, gaming (Steam), netbooks, and servers. All well and good.
Next, you have distros customized for the specific needs of a country or political regime. Fine. They know what they are doing and they know their market well.
What have I missed? All the rest of the general purpose desktop distros with heaven knows how many lightweight desktops, and the more ponderous ones like Unity, Gnome 3, etc. Why are there so many? Why the waste of resources for so many projects that accomplish the same thing? As I said, the distros and desktops have become the new tower of Babel. Some of the more lightweight desktops look a little crude and scruffy, and no, I do not want Windows Aero on Linux! But that's the tradeoff one must make in selecting a distro to fit sometimes pretty old hardware.
So I do exactly as #61 says. I download distros and try them live. If any of them have redeeming features, I keep them around. If not, bye, bye distro. So far, Mint in its variations has proven to be the best all-round with attractive easy-to-use desktops and a comprehensive selection of useful modern software. But that could change in the next year or so.
For any general purpose distro below the top 30 on the DistroWatch list? Tell me something compelling that makes me want to try your distro... Ben Myers
64 • choice (by M.Z. on 2015-01-07 18:47:54 GMT from )
All very true Jason. In fact I remember a few years ago when I was starting out with Linux there were people saying Mint was just a clone of Ubuntu with media codecs installed, so what was the point if you could just install the codecs in Ubuntu? Mint was more even then & has become a great deal more now after having time to evolve. If distro developers want to reduce duplication of efforts then they should make their project easier & friendlier for new devs to join, but there will always be people that want to roll their own just because they can. I say more power to them, & that is what the GPL says too.
All we as current users need to do to reduce confusion & indecision is point people toward a few top choices. Just tell people that Mint, PCLOS, Magiea, & are all available & easy to use so they can decide what works for them & works on their hardware. You can let newbies know that there are always other options if they want to do things in a more manual way, but if not they don't need to worry about Slackware, Gentoo, FreeBSD, or distro 300 on the DW list. If they like their new distro they may want to explore later & use something more specialized, but they don't need all the details upfront. Give people a few good choices & they will be happy.
65 • Advice to newbies (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2015-01-07 19:29:54 GMT from United States)
I rarely know exactly what a newbie considers mission-critical, so I recommend tools like MultiBootUSB and YUMI, so they can test live and get acquainted with several ISOs. (These tools work well with others.)
66 • systemd and UNIX principles (by admin on 2015-01-08 04:05:59 GMT from New Zealand)
The comment that "whether systemd not following the UNIX Philosophy is good or bad is a matter open to debate" suggests ignorance of the principles underlying the UNIX philosophy. They are sensible principles: the stupidity of making your system less secure, more vulnerable to breakdown, etc., etc. is very straightforward, so the only really "debatable" issue is how much of this kind of bad design is "worth it" in order to achieve other aims (e.g. booting up quickly). The original question confused the issue by citing examples like GNOME and KDE as if they showed that it can be good practice to ignore UNIX principles, whereas in fact they are merely evidence that badly designed software can be much more popular than well designed software, and that the kind of success systemd is enjoying now has been enjoyed many times before (Windows being perhaps the best example). The more major GNU/Linux distros ignore UNIX principles and embrace garbage like systemd, the more attractive other operating systems (like the BSD variants) become as alternatives. By chasing the kind of "success" Windows enjoys by becoming more and more Windows-like in every way, GNU/Linux distros are chaining themselves to that sinking ship and leaving the future of the software world to some other community.
67 • Principles and Priorities (by Fairly Reticent on 2015-01-08 07:36:53 GMT from United States)
Remember: the Linux kernel violates UNIX principles - for performance reasons.
68 • choice (by Hoos on 2015-01-08 08:09:12 GMT from Singapore)
I'm all for choice and letting "evolution" or survival of the fittest weed out the bad/pointless distros from the good or promising ones, rather than for Distrowatch to carry out its own selection or culling exercise.
Otherwise what you're saying is that we should just stick with the current known distros because nothing new can be learned, no new distros or derivatives can come up with improvements or rise above the "mere derivative" label, or forge its own identity or path with time.
Yet this is what Mint has done. And Manjaro as well, just to mention 2 examples.
I recall when Jesse first reviewed Manjaro, the review wasn't very positive. Things are so different now his latest review this issue of DWW.
So I don't know that it's a waste of resources. Maybe in some aspects. But from the chaos, some good things will surface.
69 • Manjaro (by haitechan on 2015-01-08 22:31:20 GMT from Peru)
@60: I don't know about the IRC channel but they were super friendly with me in their forum, even when I was a complete noob. It's a nice distro but I found it that used a bit more resources than Xubuntu, which is weird for an Arch-derived distro.
70 • @60 (by jaws222 on 2015-01-09 00:24:57 GMT from United States)
" Manjaro looks good but the community on IRC channel were rude and horrible. So I just forgot about Manjaro :)"
I've never had anyone treat me bad at all on the Manjaro forum. Now Arch is a different story, Those guys were horrible, but that was many years ago and it steered me towards more user-friendly arch distros like Manjaro and Antergos.
71 • what's wrong with too many distros@jason (by gee7 on 2015-01-09 09:26:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
As I meant to say but forget to add in my previous post on this @37, the fact that Distro Watch looks for and publicises existing Linux distros and adds new ones when available, is a great boon to people with busy lives who don't have much time to look for small distros themselves. Without Distro Watch, I would never have found Momomga, Netrunner Rolling, Salix and other neat distros developed by small teams.
At one time Linux Mint, which I also recommend to beginners, was a small start-up business run by one man part-time from home. New distros are what young or inexperienced developers can cut their teeth on, and Linux needs such people, who have a willingness to try, a burning ambition to code, and an enthusiasm and independence which will be a boon to the Linux world of the future.
Thank you, Distro Watch, for keeping a database of what is going on in the Linux World. Most of your readers appreciate this.
= ======= =
By the way, @37 showed the wrong location. I'm in the UK, not the US.
72 • #60 Manjaro forums (by Pmulax on 2015-01-09 12:32:00 GMT from Spain)
I'm also surprised to hear about any unpoliteness in Manjaro's forums (though anyone's entitled to a bad day.....just ask Linus). For me, Manjaro has been like Mint, though I'm sure they had going for them Arch's terrific docs, they steered away from the quite sharp and unforgiving attitudes so common in their forums. They also listen to users, as you can see following their distro's development. Check the Netbook edition, with GMA 500/3600 support and see how they treated user's opinions and feedback. I tip my hat to these guys!
73 • @60 manjaro forums (by shadow on 2015-01-09 19:51:03 GMT from Nicaragua)
Manjaro IRC channel when it has some of its regulars and "staff" about are very good at sorting issues out, Sometimes it gets a bit out of control due to different time zones coming on / going off and being an open channell it can get over run with Trolls some of whom have been about and banned regularly for years and just keep returning... The forums are much better regulated and are ususally quite quick in getting replies to issues
74 • 'Rude' - eye of the beholder? (by Kragle von Schnitzelbank on 2015-01-10 00:35:08 GMT from United States)
It's often useful to point a newbie to examples of trolling, especially by forum admins. Helps start 'em out with realist expectation, durability.
That said, some perceptions of "rude" simply do not realize just how misled they've been.
75 • sing with me: (by yikes on 2015-01-10 12:57:13 GMT from Romania)
i like big hot dogs,
to lick the shaft of,
i shave myself down there,
and paint a clown face.
Number of Comments: 75
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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