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1 • FreeBSD UEFI support (by Reuben on 2014-12-08 09:34:49 GMT from United States) |
UEFI support in FreeBSD is still in it's infancy. It seems that many people have trouble with it. Counter-intuitively, I can only use the EFI bootloader on my system when I enable legacy booting.
2 • rolling ubuntu (by Terence on 2014-12-08 10:17:55 GMT from United States)
If it's just a matter of DLing the latest daily image, then changing the sources then is there a reason you cannot do this with any of the buntu family of distros?
Also, can anyone tell me why ALL Debian based distros (including the buntus) cannot retrieve updates while in China? It errors out every single time and cannot connect to the repositories. I have no problem with OpenSUSE, Fedora, or ARch distros, just the Debian family.
3 • #2 (by Teresa e Junior on 2014-12-08 10:36:14 GMT from )
"Also, can anyone tell me why ALL Debian based distros (including the buntus) cannot retrieve updates while in China?"
Never heard of the Great Firewall of China? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project
4 • rolling ubuntu (by Toran.email@example.com on 2014-12-08 11:14:16 GMT from Belgium)
Weird you have only troubs with the Debian-updates. Debian works worldwide. It might be coz Debian is blocked as it seems to be the favorite distro of hackers. However, Ubuntu has develloped a special flavour for China, being Ubuntu Kylin.
5 • Ubuntu Gnome Rolling? (by alpensepp on 2014-12-08 12:06:21 GMT from Germany)
After reading the tutorial about changing Ubuntu Gnome into rolling, could somebody explain to me why pulling in the required repositories for a rolling release are restricted to Gnome?
what influence would a different desktop environment have? what would not work with KDE, XFCE, Mate, LXDE and so on?
thanks for putting some light in my thoughts ;-)
6 • systemd (by Wine Curmudgeon on 2014-12-08 12:06:25 GMT from United States)
Jesse, another excellent piece about the systemd controversy, in which you are fair, sensible, and even-handed. Would that more people had your approach.
7 • @5 : rolling release gnome-restricted ? (by Frederic Bezies on 2014-12-08 13:02:06 GMT from France)
Well, looks like Ubuntu gnome wants to transform development version into a rolling release one.
If you look at instructions, rolling release repository is clearly named :
"That is very easy:
There is a release called “devel“.
If you put that in /etc/apt/sources.list instead of utopic/vivid etc, you will be kicked over the new devel version a few days after it opens.
No need to ever upgrade to the next version/release; just a dist-upgrade is enough."
Well, it looks like it is a "rolling-release" look-alike, not a true one, like Archlinux or Gentoo for example.
You could make a Xubuntu / Kubuntu looks like a rolling the same way, modifying sources.list.
How useful... Or not ! :)
8 • @3 (by Terence on 2014-12-08 13:16:30 GMT from United States)
You did see the part where I said all other family of distros work without even a hiccup here in China? What is going on with Debian that I cannot update? And this is a problem that has been happening since I moved here in 2011. Definitely not a recent development.
9 • #8 (by Teresa e Junior on 2014-12-08 13:30:21 GMT from )
With any censorship system you are subject to false alarms, so it is hard to believe there is something wrong from Debian's part.
Here they have a few suggestions for using APT with Tor: http://tor.stackexchange.com/questions/831/can-i-use-the-tor-browser...
10 • @Jesse: Systemd: (by dragonmouth on 2014-12-08 14:00:41 GMT from United States)
"I would also point out that since most other Linux distributions have already adopted systemd"
"or they can jump on the bandwagon and do what other distributions are doing."
As our mothers use to say "If everybody jumped off a bridge, would you?"
Just because most distros are going or have gone to systemd does not mean that Debian has to also. Just a philosophical point.
11 • "Rolling Release" (by Davidnotcoulthard on 2014-12-08 15:39:35 GMT from Indonesia)
@7 It is useful.
What it isn't (from the looks of it) is new and original, but the same goes for a lot of things that might wow people like accessing Natty's repositories in late 2014.
12 • RE: #2 (by More Gee on 2014-12-08 16:01:41 GMT from United States)
I could be a downstream or flavour specific issue or the package manager is broken. Also some are not supporting 32 bit any more and the package manager is falling back into incopatable parent repositories that are probably using systemd. With this and PAE and UEFI downstream package managers are crashing all over the place. Most recently for me was a promising install of Centos, after I installed codecs for MP3 playback the whole thing fell apart as they were for a previous version. Others have been kicked out of the ubuntu repositories, ie Lubuntu and 32 bit mint rolling and upon re-install won't update properly.
13 • @11 Rolling or development ? ;) (by FredBezies on 2014-12-08 16:42:08 GMT from France)
Of course, it is useful. But it is not strictly speaking a rolling release. It could be named : development release.
Looks like rolling release is a new buzzword nowadays.
14 • wondering why BSD ISOs are larger? (by Jeff on 2014-12-08 17:06:48 GMT from United States)
Lately I've been giving another look at the BSD's and noticed again that their ISOs are about three times as big as the Linux ISOs that I'm used to.
Google is turning up the usual irrelevant stuff, so I thought to ask here why this is so?
15 • @10 Out of context (by Ricardo on 2014-12-08 18:40:51 GMT from Argentina)
Those quotes are way out of context, and that's exactly the kind of childish behaviour that makes me dismiss such comments as "systemd-haters", even if I don't like systemd myself, because it seems there are no real arguments against systemd (and there are a lot).
So please, refrain to make that kind of comments in the future, instead try to make a sane point against systemd (in my case, featureitis and external projetcs dependency on systemd-only features are my biggest fears, for example).
To be clear on my first point: Jesse Smith is not saying Debian switched to systemd just because everybody else is doing it, but that it could have been one of several reasons (and he provided a few).
Qoute: "I think any of the above are possible reasons for Linux developers, including Debian's team, to adopt systemd as the default init technology"
16 • @2 Debian blocked in China (by Ricardo on 2014-12-08 18:46:05 GMT from Argentina)
What mirrors are you trying to connect to? Maybe you can find some China mirrors and try them in your sources.list.
Or maybe try Ubuntu Kylin and check what mirrors are they using.
17 • @2 Debian blocked in China (by linuxista on 2014-12-08 18:56:00 GMT from United States)
Debian has at least one mirror in China. Have you changed your sources.list as @16 suggested?
18 • re: PC-BSD (by caieng on 2014-12-08 19:03:16 GMT from United States)
*** There are a lot of great features in this release I would love to see ported to Linux ***
Thanks for the review, again Jesse. This is the third review of PC-BSD this year.
I confess it has been several years since I last attempted to install it. I am undoubtedly completely behind the times. Please take my comments that follow with a grain of salt. At that time, many years ago, I was annoyed that a Personal Computer operating system, any PC operating system, would act as though it were 1974, again, when we had been obliged to have multiple keystrokes for user name and password. That relationship changed, in the late 70's with the first personal computers, and PC-BSD refused, (at least as of several years ago) to accept the notion that the user, not the designer of the OS, should decide how many keystrokes would be required. Linux, at least the versions I use, do not oblige the user to follow the ancient UNIX religion, as the orthodox BSD folks follow. With Linux, a user name can be a single character, and passwords are optional.
My concern about this review, is that Jesse does not identify which of these features, that he so admires, ought to be incorporated into Linux. My primary concern, the one that prompted this verbose response, is that Jesse has not yet, despite so many reviews of BSD, offered us even the simplest benchmark comparison, so that we could better appreciate why the true religion, UNIX, is superior to the protestant Linux? If PC-BSD is as remarkable as Jesse would imply, by virtue of writing about it, three times in one calendar year, then, shouldn't it be easy enough to devise a couple of simple benchmark comparison tests, e.g the time needed to boot up, shut down, access internet, load a standardized pdf or jpeg file, or whatever, something concrete, to justify our inquiry into this ancient behemoth? I would much prefer to read about distros other than BSD related, unless those distros have truly thrown off the ancient yoke which demands that a minimum of 37 users must all be accommodated to access the same household or small business computer, as though it were still 1974.
19 • PC-BSD (by M.Z. on 2014-12-08 20:47:52 GMT from United States)
I for one think that the snapshot management & ZFS integration stuff is quite innovative & a big advantage that no version of Linux can fully compete with. There may be one version of Linux that has a basic utility that does something similar with Btrfs, but it doesn't look nearly as good as what PC-BSD has. I don't know why minimum security standards are a bad thing, or what that user limit stuff is about, but you seem to want arbitrary new tests to justify the usefulness of BSDs. The reviews here generally don't have performance data, & I don't see why a BSD should receive special treatment in that regard.
I for one like to hear about the BSD projects, as they provide some much needed variety to the world of open source Unix clones. Isn't that whole choice thing a big part of what open source software is about? I don't see how a handful of BSD reviews a year could be anything but good, so long as they follow the same format & standards as Linux reviews.
20 • re: #19 M.Z. (by caieng on 2014-12-08 22:04:42 GMT from United States)
Thanks, M.Z. your comments are welcome, and certainly have a lot of merit:
***I don't know why minimum security standards are a bad thing ***
and I apologize to you, and to the other readers of this excellent resource, if I have given you the wrong impression. I am not opposed to "minimum security standards". I am opposed to an operating system compelling the user to adopt your standards, or anyone else's.
Your "minimum security standards" should be optional. The Personal Computer operating system, as opposed to Server operating system, should allow the user to set and define those "security standards", individually. That's what "personal" means. You want them, you should be able to impose them on yourself at your own workstation in your own home.
The question is whether or not you should ALSO be able to impose your standards on me, in my home, working on my own computer. I deny that you should be able to tell me how to run my house. I do not insist that you ignore the security that you love by having complex passwords and login id's, and neither should you demand that I follow your "minimum security standards".
So long as there is freedom, then one can call the operating system "personal". The moment that you impose some other notion, then, it is really incorrect to claim "PC...whatever", for it is no longer "personal"
***The reviews here generally don't have performance data, & I don't see why a BSD should receive special treatment in that regard.***
I share your opinion, there is no need for BSD to receive special treatment, that's why I noted the frequency with which that particular distro receives accolades at this lovely web site. Maybe some other distro should be getting three reviews in one year, I don't know, but if it were up to me, before I wrote three reviews on a single Operating system, in a single calendar year, I would want to have some actual data, supporting the conclusion that this "special" operating system, which IS receiving "special treatment", in terms of the frequency of its reviews, ought to have some hard data, to support that special frequency of reporting on its progress.
Does Distrowatch provide three updates per year on Debian, Slackware, Puppy, Arch, Lubuntu? To me, that would suggest that PC-BSD is superior, to those other alternatives, and if so, why not show us just what we have been missing? When I tested PC-BSD, several years ago, it was much slower to boot than Linux, that does not necessarily translate into slower performance, once booted, but I gave up on it, because of frustration that I couldn't simply turn it on, and start working, as I am accustomed to, with Mint/Cinnamon, my distro of choice. In my experience, admittedly, not extensive, Crunchbang is even faster. Of course, some folks don't really care how fast an OS operates. I am still recovering from those nightmares of four decades ago, working alongside twenty other folks with the tiny brain of a PDP-10, running Unix!
21 • @20 (by Paraquat on 2014-12-08 22:58:35 GMT from Taiwan)
...Your "minimum security standards" should be optional. The Personal Computer operating system, as opposed to Server operating system, should allow the user to set and define those "security standards", individually. That's what "personal" means. You want them, you should be able to impose them on yourself at your own workstation in your own home...
Tight security is a feature of PC-BSD, and the developers feel that this is crucial. If you want a Linux distro that (at least optionally) takes a lax view of security, I'm sure you can find one. The developers of PC-BSD aren't necessarily trying to please everyone - they want to please themselves and their loyal users. It's pretty much this way with every distro - use the ones that have the features you like. If features were standardized for every BSD and Linux distro, we wouldn't need distros, or Distrowatch.
One thing that you may or not realize is that the same disk that installs PC-BSD also can be used to TrueOS which is actually a server edition of FreeBSD. It's probably fair to say that many or most PC-BSD desktop users have at least a passing interest in configuring a server. And with servers, you can never have too much security.
22 • PC-BSD and security requirements (by Jesse on 2014-12-08 23:03:43 GMT from Canada)
Regarding the password requirements of PC-BSD, if you don't want to supply a password for your account, you can enable auto-login. Alternatively, the root user on a PC-BSD system can set any password they like on an account, including a blank password. So if you are setting up your computer at home there is absolutely no restriction on what password you can have for your user account. In short, PC-BSD does not place any restrictions on you as far as password complexity/length is concerned so long as the root user (presumably you in a home environment) is okay with it.
As for as doing three reviews of PC-BSD this year, it's true I have an interest in this OS. I think the developers are doing good things and I find their work intriguing, that's why I cover their releases. Debian and Slackware usually only release once every year or two, that's why they aren't getting covered more. I do tend to cover every Debian and Slackware release, they just have a slower cycle. I also usually cover the major Puppy releases, all Ubuntu releases, Mint's releases, etc. Last year I believe I did three reviews of Fedora (as the project put out three major releases in 2013).
Basically, I tend to review all the significant releases from the big open source players and the frequency of the reviews tends to follow their release cycles. It's not that one project is superior to another, it's just the frequency of their releases and how interesting I find their new features that determines how many reviews they get.
I've said many times in the past that I review projects that fall into one of three categories:
1. The mainstream distributions (Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, etc)
2. Projects people request I review
3. If I don't have any of #1 or #2 in my queue, I review whatever looks interesting to me. If you'd rather I review something different, just drop me an e-mail and ask. If no one asks, I just review whatever catches my eye.
As for performance, PC-BSD performs about the same for me as most of the major Linux distributions. PC-BSD boots a little slower, but once it is up and running I'd say PC-BSD offers similar performance to Ubuntu or Fedora, assuming you use similar hardware and have the same software installed. ie PC-BSD with KDE will probably run about the same as Kubuntu on the same hardware.
23 • PC-BSD Xfce (by cykodrone on 2014-12-09 01:26:46 GMT from Canada)
I'm not sure how well the KDE version of PC-BSD performs (default native DE) but the Xfce version didn't do so well in my test run. Missing menu icons, clumsy volume mounting (the volume mounter is down by the panel clock), dead menu icons (App Cafe said things were installed but some refused to start or resulted in error dialogue windows). FYI, missing icons can be fixed by installing a more complete set, manually (that requires root, have fun figuring that out) or otherwise, I have no clue as to why a more complete icon set wasn't be installed in the first place.
I found App Cafe a little strange too, the navigation can be confusing and tedious. I hate package installer GUIs that don't let you go back to where you just left off, meaning the exact item you just installed when you go 'back' for example. You can get lost in numerous tabs, each tab being a different 'search', etc. Typed in search terms are not like most Linux package GUIs either, if you are searching a particular app, be prepared to try many different search terms, even obvious terms failed to deliver results.
Don't get me started on the installer, be very careful, my old machine (tester) has 4 HDDs on the main mobo SATA controller and 1 HDD on a JMicron SATA controller (on purpose, to keep it 'separated'), under Linux they are properly 'seen' in order (sda, sdb, sdc, sdd + sde), but in the PC-BSD installer, 'sde' is 'seen' as the first drive in the machine (even though it's fifth in the BIOS boot order), stupid me assumed it to be the equivalent of sda in Linux, anyway, even though it wasn't selected (space-bar), it still got wiped anyway, good thing there was nothing too important on it.
The ZFS file system is certainly a different animal, if you're coming from Linux, it will take some getting used to. The mounted partitions GUI thingy was a little confusing to read, but after staring at it for a few minutes, it sunk in, but it still seems a little over-engineered and complicated. Whatever happened to KISS? BSD is an ancient server OS and it shows in this desktop iteration.
Some good info here:
PC-BSD's heart is in the right place, but maybe I've been spoiled by more thorough distros. Too bad I can't stand KDE anymore, or I would give that version a spin too, it's probably much better supported than Xfce. Who knows, I may be forced (by systemd creep in Linux) to try the KDE version eventually, Xfce was sadly a fail. I haven't tried it on my new AMD/Radeon machine, but it did OK on my old Intel/Nvidia box.
@Jesse...thanks ever so much for the systemd research and story.
24 • @14 • wondering why BSD ISOs are larger? (by Thomas Mueller on 2014-12-09 03:47:58 GMT from United States)
BSDs I am most familiar with are FreeBSD and NetBSD. Linux ISOs range from small in the case of Tiny Core, Damn Small Linux, Puppy Linux to much bigger in the case of full distributions with many applications, such as Ubuntu, Slackware and Mint. PC-BSD ISO would be big, since it is FreeBSD dressed up with many applications to make it more comparable, functionally speaking, to the bigger Linux distros.
25 • RE:#24 - + Powerful "and" Minty Fresh (by Landor on 2014-12-09 04:35:51 GMT from Canada)
It's the exact same reason Gentoo is.
RE: Powerful and Minty Fresh....
I was surprised to see the announcement for Clem's "Fresh" offering being stated as "Powerful".
What makes it powerful? Is it now trying to take on Listerine? Seriously here though, I really want to know. Is it the fact that it's made for the kiddies with all the whiz-bang extras installed for them that makes it powerful? Are there additions that just blow away any other offering by its "brute strength"?
What's the benchmark that it's measured by, anyone know? Clem? (I know you still lurk here)
Keep your stick on the ice...
26 • @24, BSD ISO size (by Jeff on 2014-12-09 15:06:34 GMT from United States)
I am comparing for example:
PC-BSD 10.1 (3.3gb)
All of these ISOs come with a fairly large assortment of applications including LibreOffice or another comparable office suite.
The Linux distros are nearer 1gb to 1.5gb while the BSDs usually are well over 3gb.
Why more than twice as large?
27 • ISO size (by Jesse on 2014-12-09 18:00:57 GMT from Canada)
@26: You kind of answered your own question. If you look at the SparkyLinux ISOs, for example, you see one ISO for LXDE, one for MATE, one for Xfce, etc. With Tanglu you see one for GNOME and another ISO for KDE. The PC-BSD ISO contains all of those desktop environments in one download. The PC-BSD ISO contains KDE, MATE, Xfce, LXDE, Lumina and a bunch of window managers too. There is no PC-BSD MATE edition or KDE edition because everything is provided in one download.
28 • ISO size (by Fox on 2014-12-09 21:03:25 GMT from Canada)
@27: But Jesse, a lot of the software on the different desktop isos of sparkylinux would be redundant applications. I suspect that only a small fraction of it is the desktop environment because adding another desktop doesn't require that big of a download (at least not on Ubuntu). Perhaps PC-BSD just gives one "the kitchen sink" in apps?
29 • PC-BSD dual boot with linux Mint (by Neil on 2014-12-09 21:41:36 GMT from United States)
Is it possible to partition HDD with Linux Mint Mate 17.1 on it and install PC-BSD in the newly created partition?
30 • Manjaro offering OpenRC alternative (by aguador on 2014-12-09 21:56:06 GMT from Spain)
I did not notice Manjaro mentioned in the section about alternatives to systemd, but it now offers OpenRC as an alternative. See Manjaro's OpenRC wiki: https://wiki.manjaro.org/index.php?title=OpenRC,_an_alternative_to_systemd
31 • PC-BSD/Dual booting (by Corbin Rune on 2014-12-09 21:58:53 GMT from United States)
Feel free to correct me if this is wrong.
I believe you can dualboot (Type "X") Linux and a BSD. It's just that you'd need ZFS partitions for the BSD install, and any data you want to share between both. Although, I'm still in the pre-planning stages, RE: BSD on my box. (Part hardware issue research, part deciding which flavor of BSD to try. So far, I'll say ArchBSD looks rather interesting, as does PC-BSD. /shrug)
32 • Alpine Linux: OpenRC; Slitaz: Custom Scripts (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2014-12-09 23:53:08 GMT from United States)
A fine contender missing from Jesse's systemd-free tips (I looked) is Alpine Linux.
Alpline is built atop OpenRC and the innovative musl runtime.
Slitaz offers custom init scripts.
Given all the bloat in systemd, I am tempted myself to drop Arch for more sensible design, much as I love its large set of prebuilt, up-to-date packages.
33 • why BSD ISO is larger (by Simon on 2014-12-10 00:28:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
My understanding is that with BSD each application comes complete with its own set of library files. This saves the complexity of managing dependencies and versions, but the cost is in the size of the ISO.
34 • ISO sizes (by Jesse on 2014-12-10 01:26:51 GMT from Canada)
>> But Jesse, a lot of the software on the different desktop isos of sparkylinux would be redundant applications. "
Sure, a lot of it is. But remember, PC-BSD has around half a dozen desktop environments and another half a dozen window managers on the ISO. Plus extra drivers, some admin tools, plus the whole base system, developer tools, etc. If you squeezed all of that into a Linux ISO (like openSUSE does) you would end up with a similiar sized ISO. There isn't anythign special about the BSDs that make them bigger or smaller. Quite the opposite, in fact. Linux distros with similar software to BSDs have almost identical sized ISO images.
>> "My understanding is that with BSD each application comes complete with its own set of library files. "
That is false. The BSDs use shared libraries just like GNU/Linux distributions do. For a while PC-BSD provided fat packages in their repositories, but those are not part of the ISO.
35 • @26 BSD ISO size (by Thomas Mueller on 2014-12-10 03:20:21 GMT from United States)
"The Linux distros are nearer 1gb to 1.5gb while the BSDs usually are well over 3gb."
PC-BSD is the only BSD I know of with such a big ISO size.
You cite Sparky Linux, Tanglu and Makulu, less than half the ISO size of PC-BSD, but what about straight FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and Bitrig?
It's the bulky applications including KDE and GNOME 3 that bloat an ISO, and if you're looking for something to rival MS-Windows or Mac OS X desktop straight from the DVD, then sure, the ISO will be huge.
36 • ISO size (by M.Z. on 2014-12-10 07:05:02 GMT from )
For a point of reference I just checked the size of PCLinuxOS FullMonty, which is 4 GB in size & includes nearly all the software available for PCLOS. There might be other distros that ship with everything including the kitchen sink too, just check out kwheezy which is 3.7+ GB in size. It all comes down to how much software is included out of the box, & I suppose more is better if you want to download one image & install on multiple computers.
37 • Light? (by Carlos on 2014-12-10 11:04:16 GMT from Portugal)
You guys want light?
No installation CD/DVD/USB stick needed. :')
38 • RE: Manjaro offering OpenRC alternative (by kernelKurtz on 2014-12-10 11:05:31 GMT from Netherlands)
Hard installed to SSD and working beautifully here. Almost half the size as the 0.8.11 from earlier in the week; 3.33 GB out of the box according to gParted.
The AUR plus Phil's aesthetic plus OpenRC plus XFCE is pretty close to perfection.
39 • Conspiracies (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2014-12-10 11:59:55 GMT from Belgium)
By definition, a conspiracy is a plot known only to a few. This means that most people involved in a conspiracy are not fully aware of it. They do things either because it is their job, or because it is convenient for them in a way or another and therefore they prefer not to give the thing a second thought, or because they are persuaded that what they do is good.
In the case free software, there are a lot of jobless developers and developers who have jobs they dislike and that hope to get a job as Linux developers by pleasing the corporations.
40 • @38 Manjaro OpenRC has some problems. (by Frederic Bezies on 2014-12-10 12:18:02 GMT from France)
Maybe a great version, but as I tested it - looks like I will be burn to death soon - I found some annoying bugs, such as :
1) Installer doesn't restart automatically after it done its work.
2) If you're using a not qwerty keyboard (like an azerty or dvorak one), you have to change it in xfce after first start.
3) LibreOffice is not installed by default, neither Mozilla Firefox
4) Pamac is not working correctly, Octopi does.
Besides this, it is an interesting project. Only time will tell if it will live longer than a single version.
41 • Systemd does it all (by Carlos on 2014-12-10 14:07:16 GMT from Portugal)
systemctl enable terminald
systemctl enable editord
systemctl enable calculatord
systemctl enable browserd
systemctl enable emaild
systemctl enable mediaplayerd
systemctl enable officed
What are you complaining about? :')
42 • systemd (sigh) (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-12-10 14:58:34 GMT from United States)
If not for the barrage of hype from Poettering (and what sensationalist *bleep* let him out of that ivory tower?) et al systemd[process-mgmt] might not have been so controversial - I recommend Russ Allberry's comments for level-headed clarity.
"It's monolithic" - so is the Linux kernel; want to use Minix and thrash?
"It's not the Unix Way" - neither is Linux, but it works.
"It's a huge buggy mess" - so was the prior system; maybe the developer community can handle it - after all, it's been coming for what, three years now?
"It's a RedHat conspiracy" - and HP, and Intel, and Canonical (nobody complained before when they gave Linux massive support) and ... and the internet is for military research collaboration. Make something good come of it, or go fork ... - after all, it's Freed Open-Source Software.
"Logs aren't readable text" - nothing prevents logging in readable text (even relational databases can be implemented in text), except perhaps the question of efficiency, of course.
"It's change!" - growing pains. So?
"Gnome depends on it!" - maybe the gnomes have finally found a way to sink their DE?
(Hmm - has ReactOS gone there?)
43 • @40 (by Corbin Rune on 2014-12-10 16:15:22 GMT from United States)
I'd either guess that's an Xfce (I'm running mainly LXQT/E19/KDE5) issue, or your system. I did the OpenRC bit in my own install from scratch. Heck ... swapped over then reversed back to systemd, just to see how things play out. My only "issues," OpenRC-wise dealt with
lacking startup scripts for a few things. (For example: clamd, dnsmasq. SDDM was expected, since it's a newer DM and lacks ConsoleKit support). But, mileage varies. /shrug
44 • Systemd and Debian Stable (by Debian Fan on 2014-12-10 16:54:13 GMT from United States)
"Finally, of course, there is the tendency of Linux developers to adopt new technology, even when it does not yet work as smoothly as the software it is replacing. KDE 4, GNOME Shell, PulseAudio and GRUB 2 are all fine examples of software projects that were adopted early and while they still had growing pains. Trying new software is more exciting than maintaining old software. I suspect some Linux distributions, perhaps Debian included, are enabling systemd while there are still wrinkles to iron out partly because systemd is new and interesting."
This alone speaks to the point the questioner was trying to get at (and which you did not try to answer with objective journalism). Debian, and in particular Debian Stable is supposed to be conservative by nature. New fangled thingamabobs are not supposed to be made default in it. Debian has always prided itself in the old saying, "release when ready." This does not just speak to when Debian releases the next stable distro. It also encompasses the Debian philosophy of staying with tried and true technology on a stable base of older software. The point of it all is to provide users with a stable (and I would emphasize the word - STABLE) operating system that any IT/Server administrator would be happy to use for his or her enterprise servers. Debian has never before taken this kind of approach to their stable releases with this decision to move to a still experimental technology like Systemd (experimental in the sense that it is still in heavy development and huge scope creep).
Anyway, that is just one reason why the debate over Systemd rages in Debianland, and will continue to rage for years to come.
45 • @43 (by Frederic Bezies on 2014-12-10 17:47:10 GMT from France)
I used official Manjaro Linux OpenRC 0.8.11 ISO to do these tests.
By the way, OpenRC is great on distribution build on it like gentoo or funtoo.
Only time will tell if this ISO will live longer or not. I'm happy to see it. Will there be a big community using it ?
That is the main question.
46 • @44 -- Debian Stable, systemd and GRUB2 (by Ralph on 2014-12-10 18:45:45 GMT from Canada)
I think what you are saying about Debian's release-when-ready policy is partly contradicted by their employment of GRUB2 at an early stage -- they started using it iirc even before Fedora. Ironically, it was working well for me when it was introduced during the first year when Squeeze was Testing, but I had problems with it by the time Squeeze became Stable.
47 • Systemd podcasts (by linuxista on 2014-12-10 18:52:25 GMT from United States)
The linux action show and linux voice podcasts both have interviews with Lennart Poettering about Systemd
48 • @46 - GRUB (by ezsit on 2014-12-10 21:55:46 GMT from United States)
The first version of GRUB never reached a 1.0 release, so any use of GRUB or GRUB2 could be considered experimental. GRUB2 started to appear in use around version 1.97 beta and did not reach 2.0 status until years later.
49 • DebIan - Testing vs Stable (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-12-11 08:22:35 GMT from United States)
Yes, normally systemd would've started out in Sid/experimental, but moved into Jessie/Testing rather abruptly - I'd ask how many years/months left until it becomes Jessie/Stable, but answering that would require predicting the future ...
Allowing Lennart Poettering to patter away in interviews for public consumption (not just "developers") is like trying to put out a fire by hosing it with gasoline.
50 • @49 (by jaws222 on 2014-12-11 13:36:22 GMT from United States)
"Allowing Lennart Poettering to patter away in interviews for public consumption (not just "developers") is like trying to put out a fire by hosing it with gasoline"
Agreed. I watched the LAS interview and he was all over the place. Can anybody say ADHD!
51 • RE: 49-50 (by Landor on 2014-12-11 21:01:44 GMT from Canada)
Poettering in my personal opinion is a perfect example of why RH is nothing but bullshit for our community. His actions are an exact mirror of theirs if you look at theirs very closely. Thinking he's right. Using the "don\t force it, use a bigger hammer" philosophy to get his buggy, unwanted piece of shit creations used by the wider world. Everyone goose-steppin' to the Pottering Party.
If there's anything I like less than RH/Fedora (and possibly the bullshit of AW), it's Poettering and his one party solutions for our community.
Keep your stick on the ice...
52 • Out of the Jaws of Victory, ... (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-12-12 03:42:34 GMT from United States)
It's a shame such abysmal presentation accompanies a change with good potential. Not the first time ego pushed verbalization beyond wisdom; likely not the last. "We've got root!" comes to mind, bring echoes of "all your base belong us". Success at preaching to the choir rarely indicates similar prospects in an open market.
53 • LAS thoughts (by M.Z. on 2014-12-12 18:59:27 GMT from )
I guess my two big takeaways from the LAS interview are #1 Red Hat didn't even want systemd until after Pottering & others did some work & convincing, & #2 Red Hat employs less than half of the lead devs for the systemd project. Other distro makers like SUES & Canonical have apparently been there working with RH devs for a long time. There seems to be fewer problems with systemd than some of the detractors would have you believe, although I still don't get why Debian doesn't want to give users the choice of what init to use. Some of the hot plugging stuff did sound like a solid technical improvement, though I think I may have heard about that before. I'm still not sure how big an issue this init stuff really is, so I'll keep using the same distros regardless of systemd.
54 • What DebIan devs don't want (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-12-12 21:03:34 GMT from United States)
Perhaps supporting multiple choice (BY DEFAULT) of complex systems nobody's wanted to fix for decades would be daunting and boring at least and likely verging on torturous. Many distros don't even support multiple architectures (like amd64 AND i686 AND i386 AND ppc ...) or Desktop Enviroments, much less process-management systems. Think about exponentially increasing testing matrix.
If OpenBSD adopts, now that would be impressive ...
55 • Mint 17.1 Mate x86 and old Thinkpad (by Ben Myers on 2014-12-12 22:39:50 GMT from United States)
Ran the full install of Mint 17.1 Mate x86 on an elderly IBM Thinkpad R52 today, after live testing of both Cinnamon and Mate. To run well, Cinnamon needs better graphics than the weakish in the R52, and its desktop did not look right, apparently operating in a degraded mode.
So I ran the Mate install, forcing PAE, and it all came out just fine. The Mate desktop looks really good and it is clearly lighter in weight than Cinnamon. The selection of software pre-installed by Mint is quite extensive, and I didn't need to separately install LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird or GIMP, for example.
Mint Mate definitely does a lot for an older system.
56 • @#53 Debian not gicing choice of init systems? (by davidnotcoulthard on 2014-12-13 02:33:01 GMT from Indonesia)
@#53 I though Debian do give users a choice of init systems, just that they don't stop app developers from not doing so?
57 • @56 : nothing happened between february and october for init choice... (by Frederic Bezies on 2014-12-13 08:28:27 GMT from France)
Problem is that the resolution to support both systemd and another init was "sent" very late.
If I remember well, one week or two before freeze. And correct me if I'm wrong, but systemd as default init was decided back in february 2014, eight months before Jessie freeze day.
58 • Debian (by Linux Apocalypsis on 2014-12-13 10:14:02 GMT from Belgium)
I have two machines running Jessie. In the notebook the arrival of systemd did not bring about major issues. In the workstation (with RAID and LVM2 setups) it was (and still is complete chaos). The list of problems is too long to enumerate them all. Maybe a fresh reinstall (which is a pain) will fix the problems, maybe not. I believe I will go with Antix. Debian is no longer the "universal operating system".
59 • 56 - Choice is allowed, but ... (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-12-13 13:31:05 GMT from United States)
There's only one officially-supported default, as in default. Downstream distros are always free to make their own choices, but upstream support for non-default options won't be as robust. Some choices will risk major support work.
It's not just about init, it's process-management; though much of the ruckus has been (and will likely continue to be) from ever-expanding ripples of unintended (and some intentional) consequences throughout the rest of the systems. This time around, Testing-Freeze will likely include notable birthing pains, and the arrival of Stable may require marathon-level patience.
Number of Comments: 59
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