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1 • Easy Arch Install (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2014-11-10 09:17:51 GMT from United States) |
Refer back to my comments "Bridge into Linux" and "Arch-Manjaro vs Kernel.org Gut Drops" on easy Arch installation and Debian v Arch. I fled Debian for Arch and have never looked back. Arch ships plain vanilla upstream software, whereas Debian tweaks it.
2 • Rolling Release/ Suse (by kc1di on 2014-11-10 10:19:31 GMT from United States)
Hi Jessie - I believe you also have to add this repository to get DVD playback in OpenSeSE.
zypper addrepo -f http://opensuse-guide.org/repo/13.2/ dvd
3 • booting time (by sunny on 2014-11-10 10:35:55 GMT from Ireland)
booting time sysvinit vs systemd i.e. Debian vs Arch: this has not been my experience, on my machine Arch boots much faster than Debian especially in text mode. The command:
$ systemd-analyze blame
lists the started unit files, sorted by the time each of them took to start up, and will tell you which unit is the culprit.
4 • Rolling Release Test (by kc1di on 2014-11-10 10:44:01 GMT from United States)
Thank You Jesse for the rolling release testing, sorry it will be ending for this time. But enjoyed it and will look for the next one when you do it.
My list of preferences as far as your test went pretty much followed
With Debian being the most stable (even when using Sid) and PCLinuxOS coming in a close second. (I've always like PCLinuxOS but have this one problem program I need and it will not run in Wine on their 64 bit release.) OpenSuSe though I've tried to like it is just too time consuming to keep up with. Have not Used PC-BSD in years. And Have Used Manjaro but not Arch so can't comment on that one.
Anyway It was very interesting to following -Thanks
5 • Rolling Release / Debian (by Tom on 2014-11-10 11:37:01 GMT from Germany)
Too bad your testing comes to an end right now as Debian gets into freeze. Would have been very interesting to me how fast (or if) Sid is going to break now.
6 • For wget, you'd also use --limit-rate (by lramos on 2014-11-10 12:20:46 GMT from Brazil)
About trickle, one also could achieve bandwidth limitation for wget with the option --limit-rate=<bw_limit>. Obviously this applies for wget, and in a wider sense, to any application which provide bandwidth limiting features, with its own syntax.
7 • ZFS (by LAZA on 2014-11-10 12:49:16 GMT from Germany)
"ZFS typically requires a minimum of 8 GB of RAM in order to provide good performance. The more RAM, the better the performance, and the FreeNAS® Forums provide anecdotal evidence from users on how much performance is gained by adding more RAM. For systems with large disk capacity (greater than 6 TB), a general rule of thumb is 1 GB of RAM for every 1TB of storage."
8 • Uneven rolling release test (by cykodrone on 2014-11-10 12:59:37 GMT from Canada)
You've got the whole gammit of distros in your test list. Arch and Sid are not used by everyday Joes that much, speaking of 'cutting' edge, do you actually *use* any of them, or do you just boot in to them to see if an update will bork? Because I've tried Sid, and believe you me, it breaks, and pukes, I found numerous nooks and crannies that were funky. PCLinuxOS and PC-BSD are marketed as reliable and n00b friendly, no surprises there, but I too found PC-BSD's updater and servers a little 'quirky', which is surprising considering its base OS, the granddaddy of mega-server OSes. I won't even comment on openSUSE except it's like pouring molasses in to your machine, it's been over-engineered for years, pretty much like KDE is over engineered now.
9 • Is trickle still developed (by Microlinux on 2014-11-10 13:05:43 GMT from France)
Recently I've been looking for a solution to limit bandwidth, since I administrate a few networks where I have to isolate some resource hogs. Trickle looked very promising, but I wonder if it is still developed. Any information about that?
10 • openSUSE codecs, systemd (by Mustafa Muhammad on 2014-11-10 13:47:39 GMT from Iraq)
I am using the rolling openSUSE (was called Factory, now Tumbleweed), I installed vlc AND vlc-codecs, everything runs smoothly, every type of video I try.
About systemd, try:
to see what is taking so long, my openSUSE takes about 17 seconds (autologin to KDE and opened the menu, but I use SSD)
systemd-analyze plot > systemd.svg
plots the time for each service into an svg image.
11 • Rolling releases (by vw72 on 2014-11-10 15:03:48 GMT from United States)
I think the rolling release series was very good and provided a lot of helpful information. I wonder, however, if openSUSE had so many problems because at the time of the testing, Factory was the development version of openSUSE 13.2 and wasn't stabilized. Now that openSUSE has separated the development (Factory) version from the rolling release (Tumbleweed) version, I'd be curious to know how the experience would go.
12 • Wrong openSUSE Tumbleweed (former Factory) (by ferri on 2014-11-10 15:14:46 GMT from Slovakia)
You have something wrong in your rolling openSUSE because actual correct state is
13 • OpenMandriva (by Lpen on 2014-11-10 15:23:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried OpenMandriva and was really impressed, sadly I could not get my Brother Printer to work.
14 • Jesse, openSUSe and multimedia (by Barnabyh on 2014-11-10 15:23:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Media players in openSUSE used to be deliberately crippled to ensure they were unable to play 'patent-encumbered' codecs. That would only leave a re-compile or an upgrade from one of the external repositories that would host a functional version.
Maybe that is why you were still unable to play video files? Just a thought.
15 • systemd and Arch (by schultzter on 2014-11-10 15:23:53 GMT from Canada)
I know it's anecdotal but when I went from Slackware -current (SysV init) to Arch (systemd) the boot-up time went from "much faster than Windows" to "what?! it's already booted?!"
The key I think is that I did not set-up technically identical systems (the hardware was the same) but rather identical purpose machines. So I can do everything I wanted to do on my new Arch set-up although the software components may not be exactly the same as they were when I was running Slackware.
I'm also discovering some of the other things I can do with systemd, like cron jobs and launching jobs on file systems changes or other system status changes. All pretty handy.
End result for me is that systemd boots up way faster than SysV Init did.
16 • systemd boot time confusion (by David on 2014-11-10 15:25:12 GMT from United States)
The main reason systemd was stated to have an advantage over SysV for boot times is because it could start services in parallel, whereas SysV starts them serially. When compared to SysV systems for which that is true, systemd does boot faster. However, for distributions like Mageia/Mandriva and Debian that used prcsys or startpar with SysV to parse LSB headers to determine service dependencies and start services in parallel, those boot time benefits did not come to fruition with systemd in practice. In fact, when Mageia/Mandriva switched, systemd was slower to boot than sysvinit was. However, as others have mentioned systemd does give you tools to analyze the boot time and you can tweak your configuration to make it boot faster. You just won't experience this "out-of-the-box." Another theoretical advantage in systemd was replacing a lot of shell scripts by C programs, greatly reducing the number of new processes that need to be created while booting, which should help given that process creation is an expensive operation. Why this hasn't led to more notable reductions in boot time, I'm not sure.
17 • Debian Joey Hess (by linuxista on 2014-11-10 15:45:08 GMT from United States)
"The controversy surrounding systemd as the default init system in Debian "Jessie" is probably what have triggered much of today's troubles in the Debian land - even though many systemd proponents maintain that users still have a choice to use SysVInit if they so prefer."
One of those proponents that users still have a choice was apparently Joey Hess himself, who, according to some digging by the guys at the Linux Action Show found Hess' statements about how, because of Debian's BSD branch SysV was always still going to be supported, Debian users would still have a choice, and therefore the reactivity surrounding the Systemd conversion was exaggerated. So it might be a fairer statement to say the sky-is-falling reaction against systemd in the Debian community is more to blame. We might be jumping to conclusions then about what is the root cause of his trouble with the project and the constitution are.
18 • Arch installation (by Paulo Fino on 2014-11-10 16:08:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
I would like to point out Antergos as a way of getting Arch Linux up and running quickly.
Essentially, Antergos is arch with some extra packages and artwork maintained within an additional repo.
I have been running self-installed Arch quite smoothly for about two years (on a Lenovo G470 laptop). Recently I got a bigger HDD for the machine and decided to try the Antergos distro to install Arch. I must say that, compared to my previous manual install with all the wiki reading, the Antergos automated installation is a breeze and makes the system faster, needing less resources.
And the only thing I had to do to switch to pure Arch was to purge the Antergos repo and edit grub.cfg to change the name back.
Thanks for all the reading!
19 • rolling releases (by Alie on 2014-11-10 16:24:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just to comment on PClinuxOS, there are newer kernels in testing (I use 64bit versions)uname -r gives me 3.17.2-pclos1 not too shabby, as for Libre Office this is updated by going to the LO manager in the "Software Center" in the main menu and it downloads and installs the latest version. You will know when there is an update by seeing the update-notifier go purple rather than orange :)
20 • Antergos (by wolf on 2014-11-10 17:55:14 GMT from Germany)
Full support here instead of the hole typing and reading (which is recommended to fully understand your system) Antergos way to setup Arch is very fast and you don't have to go through the hole Arch Wiki experience (again).
Some purists might have a point talking about unwanted bloat (some MB of unnecessary gtk) but I'm not sure if that's even true.
For me it isn't cause I like GNOME
I even found it very fast, Newbie friendly and nothing broke by updating 12 months running....
So people if you want to give Arch a try without learning Arch try Antergos it's smooth as sillk
21 • linux (by kas on 2014-11-10 18:20:02 GMT from Spain)
i'm still waiting a perfect linux distro .!
22 • OpenMandriva (by Dave Postles on 2014-11-10 18:30:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Interesting. Looking at the screenshots above, it looks like OpenMandriva has diverged from the Rosa desktop, back to a more traditional KDE style. I'll have to check it out.
23 • Antergos & Rolling Releases (by Ti-Paul on 2014-11-10 18:44:20 GMT from Canada)
I too wanted to share my addiction to Antergos.
I've been a long time distro hopper (since late 90s).
Since the birth of Antergos i've never "hopped" again.
I used it to get Arch and all my Full Fledge desktop installed in a breeze (more than a year ago). And always check official ARCH Linux news web site (https://www.archlinux.org/news/) before making updates in order to make necessary changes if they tell me...
Beside, I have an Ubuntu (latest LTS) installation that i've kept just in case. Never had to rely on it for now! :)
24 • Some things change over night (by M.Z. on 2014-11-10 20:15:23 GMT from United States)
In a rolling distro many packages change overnight, while articles can't necessarily do the same. Here is my PCLinuxOS config from yakuake:
So the article is "wrong" on that too, but the upgrade was fairly recent & likely soon after the article was finalized. As Jesse mentioned in a rolling article earlier, finished articles can't change as fast as package repos. This means a well written article will never have packages that match all the latest versions in all project repos. Just like more stable rolling distros take a bit more time to stabilize new software instead of pushing hot & new, so must well written articles be a bit out of date as well.
25 • @jessie about systemd-sysv (by matteo on 2014-11-10 20:19:56 GMT from Italy)
I've tested the same on my laptop. ironically, while both inits give the same boot times, the shutdown was far faster with systemd.
boot 9.5 sec for both systemd and sysv
shutdown 4.5 secs for systemd vs 8.5 secs for sysv
boot is computed from decompression message of linux up to gnome 3 login. shutdown computed from shutdown button pression up to powering of of the laotop.
OS: debian testing
HW: lenovo T440, 8gb RAM, OS on the 16GB msata provided with the laptop.
home is on a separate disk: a sata3 ssd.
26 • openSUSE multimedia (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-11-10 20:25:03 GMT from Ecuador)
Thanks a lot to Jesse for the rolling release trials, it was very interesting.
I suspect that the openSUSE multimedia woes were probably owing to several factors:
1. After adding Packman, it's necessary to switch some pre-installed packages from the official openSUSE version over to the Packman. This is because openSUSE actually cripples some of their packages so that they can't work with 3rd-party proprietary codecs. Fortunately it's easy to switch over to the Packman versions, as illustrated in this screeshot:
2. Also, don't forget to set Packman to a lower number, which (confusingly) givies it higher priority:
3. Next, try installing the following packages:
(In my case, I had similar troubles at first, but I later realized that it was because I was missing the *-orig-addon packages. Also notice that there are two versions of gstreamer, the old 0.10 release that some apps still require, and the newer 1.x release.)
Hope this helps!
27 • OpenMandriva -- wistful thoughts (by EngelbertHumperdinck on 2014-11-10 20:32:57 GMT from United States)
I wish OpenMandriva didn't have Russian code because I respect their efforts to make Linux welcoming to novices. AFAIK they swap code back and forth with the ROSA people:
'OMA and ROSA teams work in close cooperation exchanging code in both directions which constantly improves and maintains this shared base.'
Half of the world's viruses and malware come from the not-so-former Soviet Union and China. That is a fact. You're nuts to run software from either place, so OpenMandriva, ROSA and Deepin are out.
28 • shocked (by robert3242 on 2014-11-10 20:43:28 GMT from United States)
I was shocked to read about the changes at Debian. I hope the resignations of Mr. Hess and several others don't lead to further losses. Personally I am not a partisan of any particular init system. I've had my concerns about systemd, which I've expressed, but at the end of the day, as long as it works I don't particularly care how. What's scary is that a relatively simple issue can be this divisive, can cause a world-class project to start hemorrhaging people it can ill-afford to lose.
29 • init boot time test ground rules (by cykodrone on 2014-11-10 20:46:49 GMT from Canada)
Can we set some boot time test ground rules?
Do we start timing from just after the POST is complete to the time the OS reaches the desktop? Or is it from the point of pushing the power button? This is a variable, some motherboards POST slower than others. Just sayin.
Here's another variable, do we temporarily enable auto-login for the test(s)?
If there's no consistency, then results, reports and bragging are useless. Sheldon Cooper would agree with me, lol.
30 • #27 (by Teresa e Junior on 2014-11-10 21:06:02 GMT from )
@EngelbertHumperdinck said: "Half of the world's viruses and malware come from the not-so-former Soviet Union and China. That is a fact. You're nuts to run software from either place, so OpenMandriva, ROSA and Deepin are out."
And what about the other half, I lol'd!
31 • @30 (by Dave Postles on 2014-11-10 21:31:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
The other half - that's any one of the CIA, NSA, GCHQ.
32 • viruses (by wolf on 2014-11-10 21:39:31 GMT from Germany)
Sure funny but I laughed harder #27 comment when the joke wasn't spoon fed to me
but maybe Irony loses it's edge over the Internet.
33 • Salix 14.1 live xfce (by Louis on 2014-11-10 21:54:48 GMT from Canada)
Comments on Salix live : love language selection on boot menu. Java not working out of box, need to modify mime set up or application pane in firefox. Kind of slow to boot.
34 • Perfect Distro (by Jymm on 2014-11-10 22:09:41 GMT from United States)
kas - Yeah, and I am still waiting for a perfect Windows distro. LOL. Doin't hold your breath. As for LInux, Point Linux is as close to a perfect distro (for me) as I have ever found.
35 • Rolling release & Manjaro (by Louis on 2014-11-10 22:09:56 GMT from Canada)
I am using manjaro for the past 6 months. Easy to install, complete with codecs, flash, java !. Non free drivers for nvidia from installation media. Kernel choices. Modification for ssd out of the box .... i love it
36 • Antergos lovefest (by jaws222 on 2014-11-10 22:29:44 GMT from United States)
@18, 20 & 23
I'd like to jump in on the Antergos lovefest myself. I've been running a Mate and an XFCE version and they are both great distros and extremely fast. Also love pacmaXG
37 • #35 Manjaro (by Smellyman on 2014-11-11 01:50:11 GMT from Taiwan)
Manjaro is doing it right, holding back updates just enough to run through Arch and their own testing to find bugs. I got an SSD and read a lot about how to make sure it is setup right, only to find that everything I was supposed to tweak was already done by Manjaro. Pretty awesome. Also, good artwork and styling across all the DE's.
38 • Arch-based distros; rolling, start timings? GUI torrenting. (by gregzeng on 2014-11-11 02:44:00 GMT from Australia)
Comments so far fanboy the No.4 on the Distrowatch-Arch-based distro. My preference is No.2, Netrunner, because it seems to be more fine-tuned to the GUI-user.
Using CLI (avoiding the GUI) is an unfriendly way of defining "rolling" release. All Linux distros could be said to be "rolling", if defined using CLI. Even Windows could be said to be "rolling" if certain 3rd-party freeware apps are used (e.g. 360 Total Security).
On boot-timings, etc ... using flash drives or SSDs seem to be the best way to speed these timings. Then turning off certain "safety" & "maintenance" routines could better these timings again, but for less long-term safety.
Good to see CLI wisdom on torrent bandwidths. If bust people don't want to waste thought-time by staying in the GUI, use qBittorent, available in all (?) Linux & Windows distros. It allows both off-peak torrenting and/ or bandwidth limits, flexibly, without CLI rubbish. Unlike Transmission, etc, it also allows real-time torrent searching, downloading, etc.
A little off-topic: the Wikipedia entry on Distrowatch seems inaccurate again, as to the main persons involved with the site, IMHO. Hope this site will continue; very upset when it went offline a few months ago, for just several hours.
39 • #17, #19, #25 (by Kubelik on 2014-11-11 03:42:57 GMT from Denmark)
#17. I think you got that right:)
#25. Boot time in Jessie with or without systemd depends on DE: GNOME is much faster than XFCE. - Systemd has not fully entered. Jessie is still testing, allthough frozen, not stable.
40 • Boot times - vs - Shutdown (by Ron on 2014-11-11 04:20:53 GMT from United States)
One might think boot time was of quintessential importance from all the discussions about it. I personally regard shutdown time as more relevant to me as a home desktop user.
I think for a production server, boot up time is of little concern, one boots up once and life goes on....
For a user like myself, wife calls, dinner time, shutdown.
Phone call girlfriend lonely, ha, ha, just joking, me anyhow, but you get the point.
I like to shutdown fast, and, well, windows should certainly win the prize for longest shutdown. Linux, much faster, any version.
41 • rolling release test (by Reuben on 2014-11-11 04:35:41 GMT from United States)
I don't think running these for a little bit over a month really proves much about their stability. A serious break can occur after months or even years of running these.
42 • #41 - rolling release test (by hoos on 2014-11-11 08:44:36 GMT from Singapore)
It was never going to be more than a taste or flavour of what rolling release is like. A lot would depend on the status of a particular distro at the time of this test. If it was conducted just before an update that would require substantial user intervention, then the potential for problems would increase. If it was a generally smooth sailing period, then the distro would seem to be stable during the updates.
I'm glad this 5-week test was carried out despite its limitations. I look forward to seeing next year's test with a different set of distros.
43 • rolling release test (by linuxista on 2014-11-11 08:59:49 GMT from United States)
@41 My experience is that minor, reparable breaks can occur once a year or so with a rolling release, but serious, catastrophic, nuke 'n pave type breaks are much more likely when conducting release upgrades.
44 • You want fast boot... (by Carlos on 2014-11-11 10:24:50 GMT from Portugal)
This was more than a year ago, but the fastest boot I've experienced on Linux was a LinuxBBQ version with LXDE desktop.
LinuxBBQ is based on Debian Sid and uses systemd.
On my "old" almost 10 years old Acer laptop with a 64GB Kingston SSD, that thing booted in under 5 seconds. (!!!)
Shutdown was immediate. I'd say less than 1 second.
45 • Fastest bootup (by Bootup on 2014-11-12 04:00:29 GMT from United States)
I still get a fastest bootup on my ChromeOS Chromebook than either systemd or SysV distros I've installed.
46 • Quick Look at RoboLinux 7.7.1 XFCE (by Ben Myers on 2014-11-12 05:08:29 GMT from United States)
I keep looking for distros that might run nicely on older laptops in good working order, like a pretty nice 15" IBM Thinkpad R51 I have here. I replaced its original Pentium M CPU with a Dothan CPU with its PAE enabled, to give me a wider choice of modern distros. It has 2GB of memory, a 100GB hard drive, CD-RW/DVD combo drive and an Intel 2200 802.11bg card inside.
First, I put RoboLinux on one of my all purpose flash sticks. But when run from flash, RoboLinux complained that it could not install essentially because the files were fragmented. Never seen that one before. So I burned a DVD and started off again. I got as far as the partitioner, and I could not make much sense out of what it was telling me about the existing partitions. So I booted up other software, deleted the partitions, then started all over again by booting the DVD. This time, what the partitioner was saying was not ambiguous, and I succeeded in partitioning the hard drive using the defaults chosen by the installer. The installation proceeded ahead to successful conclusion from this point.
I rebooted as required and looked at the inventory of software that comes with the distro. Although it is shown clearly in the RoboLinux package list on DistroWatch, I was stunned to see an almost archaic LibreOffice 3.5.2. This I do not understand. Firefox is pretty contemporary and so is GIMP. I have not looked extensively at the versions of the other software that comes with the distro.
So I went to the LibreOffice web site and downloaded the latest Debian 4.3.3 and looked inside its zip file. The README file told me how to do a manual install by opening up a terminal window. Having done command line stuff a lot, I ran the LibreOffice install command as shown and the install went smoothly.
Being able to run Windows XP or Windows 7 looks very inviting, but an attempt to do so will have to wait for another day, like tomorrow. It is bedtime now.
The XFCE desktop is not gorgeous, and not butt-ugly either. It runs quite responsively on this older hardware. It will also be interesting to compare it with the X86 Gnome version of 7.7.1.
So far, I see that RoboLinux has two warts that might inhibit newbies from trying it. The partitioner could explain itself in far clearer language. The version of LibreOffice is way too old and it requires a command line install, albeit a simple one liner.
More to follow. As the title says, this is a QUICK look at RoboLinux... Ben
47 • Defaults (by mjjzf on 2014-11-12 06:05:17 GMT from Denmark)
Xfce on default settings is not exactly beautiful, but remember Gnome 2? That would make your eyes bleed on defaults... Xfce can be done *very* nicely. I usually use Openbox with Lxpanel, but Xfce offers some additional options.
48 • Debian & systemd (by Mirix on 2014-11-12 07:40:58 GMT from Belgium)
I have tried hard to remove systemd from Jessie. To no avail. Has anyone succeeded in getting rid of this trojan horse?
The last solution I tried was init-select which does not help at all and results in the filesystem being booted as read-only.
49 • PCLinuxOS - (still) no GPT (by Carlos on 2014-11-12 09:28:11 GMT from Portugal)
The problem with PCLinuxOS is that it still uses Grub 0.97 and also the installer is very old.
With these things combined, it does not recognize GPT partition tables.
If you have your HDDs with GPT (as I do, for many years), don't even try to install PCLinuxOS, the installer shows the partitions but they are wrong and if you try to guess what is what and make some sense out of that mess, you'll loose data.
Very dangerous and I'm very surprised that they still haven't fixed this.
50 • re 48 systemd (by cornelius on 2014-11-12 15:49:46 GMT from Canada)
How is systemd a trojan horse?
Debian developers FREELY chose systemd because they probably thought it is good software. You FREELY chose Debian because you probably thought it is good software. For the thousand time, systemd was NOT imposed on anybody, it is simply impossible to impose anything in the free software world.
Why do we have to post derogatory comments regarding systemd every single week?
All this whining and bitching about systemd make me enjoy your pain. I am glad you can't remove systemd from your computer.
On a second thought, I'll help you remove systemd from your computer. Simply open a terminal and execute this command as root:
rm -rf /
51 • PCLinuxOS and GrUB2 (by Fairly Reticent on 2014-11-12 16:42:21 GMT from United States)
PCLinuxOS does roll, slowly and deliberately. GrUB-Legacy's days are numbered, though it's been the default for some time. The September 2014 issue of their monthly magazine included an article introducing GrUB2, which is included in their repositories and system-settings Control Center.
The installer may not be up to speed yet; it's possible but complicated to set up with GPT, grub2-efi, etc.
52 • troll 50 (by Somewhat Reticent on 2014-11-12 16:48:40 GMT from United States)
With that attitude, it's amazing you're not using a proprietary system.
Clearly it's easy for a corporate sponsor to fund a coup; that doesn't make it right.
53 • re troll @ 52 (by cornelius on 2014-11-12 17:05:24 GMT from Canada)
What attitude? I didn't have any attitude until i read troll after troll bitching about systemd. I am not amazed you are amazed, I didn't expect you to understand my point.
Corporate sponsor funding a coup? Wow, that's deep. That's deep astro turfing. So the Debian team of developers voted to use systemd because they had a hidden agenda. Call Superman, he's your last hope.
54 • GPT <> EFI (by Carlos on 2014-11-12 17:26:41 GMT from Portugal)
@51: forget about EFI, I don't care about it.
GPT partitions exist much before EFI, I'm using them for many years.
Any Linux distro that doesn't recognize GPT partitions looks severely dated to me.
Seriously, I'd love to install and use PCLinuxOS but I just can't. And I've been waiting for years...
55 • @ 50 and 53 (by Barnabyh on 2014-11-12 19:51:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes, people chose FREELY to use Debian, in the vast majority of cases that decision was made before systemd and because people have been very invested in and loyal to the Debian distribution.
If it's not possible to run the upcoming release without it due to dependencies -at last look networkmanager, policykit and udisks showed as broken packages as soon as I removed systemd- people can and will also FREELY choose to move to something else. Thankfully there are still some distributions out there that do not hop on the latest bandwaggon and respect users choice and KISS.
Myself, I'm very tempted by OpenBSD now, as well as returning to a Slackware base. OTOH, Debian users will still be able to run Wheezy with backports for many years to come if they want to stick to what they're comfortable with AND have recent aoftware updates.
56 • @41 rolling release test (by Ron on 2014-11-12 22:53:58 GMT from United States)
I agree, more time needed for a good test.
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
57 • What kind of shmuck (by Ron on 2014-11-12 23:02:02 GMT from United States)
would tell someone to use rm -rf / without clarifying its result?
58 • Distro keywords in notifications please? (by gregzeng on 2014-11-12 23:03:18 GMT from Australia)
Distrowatch is run by distro-watchers, which most of us are not. We are users, knowing not much about the 700+ distros. Often we use SOME of the DW keywords, in the DW-search menus:
OS Type, Based on (there are 4 Debian-types; some distros use a selection of three); Desktop interface (some distros use a selection); Architecture (confusion here, since some publishers use "AMD-64", "INTEL-64", so Atom CPU is which?).
"Country of origin" keyword is only of value if the distro refuses to use the one-&-only-one" international language of planet-Earth, 2014. DW is ok with DW-specialists, but unfortunately most of us on the internet consciously or consciously value key words, especially those used in a art of DW search tool.
59 • Good distros (by Merry Sismas on 2014-11-13 02:40:41 GMT from Australia)
OpenMandriva: good control centre, system services list, and firewall. Shows what you can do when you roll with the systemd changes.
Antergos: once you set your passwords, it's more secure against hacking than Qubes, and better for surfing the net than TAILS or JonDo. Keeps the Arch philosphy of proper coding and nothing beats that for simple efficiency and security. The Arch devs seem to have the best inside knowledge for coding an OS.
60 • @57 I thought it was funny (by cykodrone on 2014-11-13 04:00:57 GMT from Canada)
What kind of schmuck would execute such a command without researching it first?
Is it even laid out properly?
rm (remove) -r (recursive, aka everything) -f (force) / (the root directory)
But I do agree, the OP resembles a feminine hygiene product espousing to be an experience or result similar to a midsummer evening, lol.
61 • re 55, 57 and 60 (by cornelius on 2014-11-13 13:34:52 GMT from Canada)
@ Barnabyh: I am glad there are Linux users with attitudes like yours, way better than Mirix's. Although I don't think this is the best attitude, as I'll explain later. Anyway, good luck in your search for the best solution.
@cykodrone: It was meant to be funny and annoying in the same time. I am curious about the feminine hygiene product. Can you detail that a little bit? And by OP did you mean Mirix or I?
@Ron: Even if I know your question is rhetorical, I'll answer it. You make a good point and in general I have to agree with you. But let's look at the context. We have here a user so versed with Unix and command line and such stuff, that he obviously knows what that command would do to his hard drive. And if he doesn't have a clue, and yet, he slams people's work like that, then I guess he deserves to learn more the hard way.
Some other thoughts: We all know Linus is not the kind of person that pulls punches when he thinks something is not right about Linux. Remember how he blasted the Gnome developers and Nvidia and a key (or Kay?) systemd developer? And yet when Linus was asked whether he is for or against systemd he said he is neutral and he doesn't care how Linux gets booted. I think that is the best attitude regarding systemd. If he had anything to say against systemd, I am sure he would've said it right there. People like Minix strike me as more catholic than the Pope himself.
Remember a while ago when Mono threatened to become a dependency of Gnome because Tomboy was the default note taking application and it was written in C#? Well, some developer quickly ported Tomboy to C++ and GNote replaced Tomboy, and the Mono threat suddenly disappeared. I have absolutely no doubt that if systemd is so flawed like some people here suggest, then there will be a fork that will make things right (and I will gladly switch to using that software if it is better than systemd). But so far systemd has worked great for me and my computer boots way faster than before.
62 • correction (by cornelius on 2014-11-13 13:44:00 GMT from Canada)
"Minix" should read "Mirix" obviously :-)
63 • Boot Time (by Jeremy Justus on 2014-11-13 17:16:08 GMT from United States)
Is boot time still important for people? My laptop reboots once per week at most; even if it had a boot time of half an hour, it would still be a complete non-issue.
64 • @61 The 'command', etc (by cykodrone on 2014-11-13 17:23:31 GMT from Canada)
It was also a joke directed at the original poster (OP) of the command. N00bs do come here and read these comments, I would either hazard a guess a few tried the command, it was kind of mean but funny to those (some) of us who know better.
No real harm intended, as was posting that command (I'm guessing). ;)
Use a search engine for more info on "Summer's Eve". In particular, the one intended to flush a certain female body cavity, lol.
65 • Debian & systemd (by Mirix on 2014-11-13 18:27:51 GMT from Belgium)
Just two things: My e-mail is real, who is the troll.
And, yes, I consider systemd to be a trojan horse because when the Debian developers decided to use it as the default init system (even if it is not just an init system, but the foundations of a full OS) they said that there was no reason to worry, that anyone would be able to switch to the init system of their liking.
As things stand now, this was a lie. Right now systemd is an essential component of Testing and Unstable, which cannot be neither removed nor disabled.
I want my freedom back and if Debian does not allow for that freedom, it will be time to switch to a really free OS.
66 • systemd (by Pogo on 2014-11-13 18:42:36 GMT from United States)
Just for those wondering:
But you know, I have been under the belief that the freedom part of linux
had to do with the choices out there (along with the big freedoms of most
of the distros being free/donate, and the other one of whether or not the
stuff can be altered by anybody).
Can those end users against systemd alter it to their liking in a given distro?
I don't know. All who read in here are not that savvy.
Trying though.. at times. ;)
67 • re 65 (by cornelius on 2014-11-13 19:04:00 GMT from Canada)
@Mirix: OK, fine, I admit. I am the troll and you are the victim. You seem interested in my e-mail so I have sent you an e-mail. Now you have it.
Someone argued on this board a while ago that the great thing about community driven distros versus corporation driven distros was that community driven distros listen to their community and their decisions benefit the community and not the parent corporation.
Could it be that the majority of the Debian community either does not care about having options or loves systemd so much that any other option is considered useless?
68 • systemd in DebIan (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-11-13 20:59:44 GMT from United States)
The community was not consulted - a few (RedHat employees?) packagers (calling themselves "developers"?) turned a tie-breaking committee into an oligarchy.
But they insist "It's for your own good. Really!".
69 • re 68 (by cornelius on 2014-11-13 21:17:06 GMT from Canada)
Reheheheally? What the Hell have RedHat employees to do with this? Do they make rpms for Debian? And now RedHat owns Debian? Care to post a link about this? Because if you just spread stupid rumors, with all due respect, I'll have to call you a despicable piece of shit.
70 • bored with systemd (by bored v bored on 2014-11-13 23:52:14 GMT from Australia)
I think dino is referring to the red hat developers of systemd and why they developed it for our "benefit". Dino is a nice person - just a little stubborn and antiauthoritarian, like most ravenous dinos.
71 • The Case for the /usr Merge (by gregzeng on 2014-11-14 09:16:53 GMT from Australia)
discusses reasons for-against, myths-truths why Linux is slowly imitating Solaris Unix. When I looked at Android 4.2, I could not follow their arguments (using registered Solid Explorer).
Chakra Linux 2014.11 (Arch-based) is following Fedora into this structural changes now, with it newest release. I am wondering which other distros have done this already, & which are not ever going to do this "follow-the-leader" chase. As a GUI user, sometimes I wonder if I ever will be forced to know Linux any deeper. Since its foundations are changing, his means that many tutorials & instructional stuff will be now out of date.
72 • fozzoil dinosaur (by wolf on 2014-11-14 10:14:36 GMT from Germany)
"Dino is a nice person - just a little stubborn and antiauthoritarian, like most ravenous dinos"
Most Dinosaurs have been so stubborn and antiauthoritarian they only accepted asteroid strikes from heaven as an authority which took them down completely so they fossilized and nowadays fill the tank of my car ;)
let's just hope he learns the difference between red hat and debian before the next meteor strike wipes us from this earth. Cause when you're wrong you're just wrong.....
And btw there always is the freedom to chose and if your choice turns out bad just make another one... Life is always learning and adapting to new situations but when you always look at your life in a rear view mirror you will only get disappointed by the things you "lost" instead of embracing the new possibilities
73 • re 68, 70 (by cornelius on 2014-11-14 13:42:27 GMT from Canada)
@bored: Maybe you are right. Maybe I went too far so I'll apologize. Fossilizing Dinosaur's post just seemed to be one of those oh-no-the-evil-corporations-are-screwing-again-our-beautiful-community-distros type of comment. Or maybe it is a the-gullible-Debian-developers-got-tricked-by-the-sleazy-RedHat-developers type of comment. Not sure.
Anyway as this discussion is winding down, I am also getting tired fighting all the paranoia and conspiracy theories on this board. I'll just go in chmod 466 and I am sure y'all won't miss me :) And don't worry, I'll make sure the door won't hit me on my way out.
Keep your head in the ice...
74 • re 63 and 72 boot time is important to me (by cornelius on 2014-11-14 13:56:54 GMT from Canada)
I just realized I forgot to reply to Jeremy Justus:
Maybe for laptops the boot time is not important. But laptops are too cute for my taste. I am old school, I prefer desktops because it is easier to repair them and reuse their components. So I boot and shut down two desktops every day (one at work and one at home), so yes boot time is important to me.
And @Wolf: Thank you for your support.
75 • 'real email' (by cykodrone on 2014-11-14 17:12:18 GMT from Canada)
I have to laugh at people claiming a 'webmail' (gmail, yahoo, etc) is 'real email', umm, no, it's sock-puppet dejour email. A 'real' email is ISP based or from one's website domain.
Anybody with a PC, laptop, tablet, smartphone (form 'borrowed' wifi, no ISP required), even a game console, can create a 'webmail'. If a webmail asks for my cell number, I don't use it, that simple.
People have created webmail accounts and social network accounts based on their pets, those same pets were then solicited for many things, including invitations to accept credit cards.
So the next time somebody tells you their webmail is 'real', laugh in their face. Just sayin.
76 • RE: 74 aka Gettin' Cute (by Landor on 2014-11-17 00:44:13 GMT from Canada)
I happen to have numerous boxen and laptops/netbooks and currently use a laptop as a personal PC thanks to the intelligent use of a usb hub and a LCD monitor. I find it far more convenient than a desktop, easily reusable, and extremely cost efficient, especially in the power usage department.
Cute? Funny term, no? Do you use Mint by chance?
Also, boot times are extremely important to me.
Keep your stick on the ice...
77 • RE: 55 - Barnaby (by Landor on 2014-11-17 00:57:08 GMT from Canada)
You know, that's funny. In a lot of ways we think along the same lines as you know. I've always been a strong advocate of OpenBSD, and cut my teeth on UNIX and BSD before most people here started to get over their fears of the unknown and plugged in their "puters". That said, because of a lot of changes in distributions, changes in the community, and to be honest, the community itself, I've been seriously considering going to OpenBSD full-time. I'm probably going to very soon. It's not surprising at all that you're considering the smart move as well.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Number of Comments: 77
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