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1 • Pisi Linux (by DrSaleemKhanMarwat on 2014-08-25 10:04:40 GMT from Pakistan) |
Welcome back home Pisi Linux !! Thanks for adding Pisi Linux into database , I am using it since its RC release and this distribution is working much better than the ex Pardus Linux and the small team running this project are very friendly, always willing to help. Good news is that I was told by one of their team member that Pisi Linux is going to be a rolling release distribution as compared to Pardus Linux which was a point release distro.
2 • SolydXK kernel (by Pumpino on 2014-08-25 10:10:50 GMT from Australia)
I tried SolydXK recently and liked it but wanted to run kernel 3.16 rather than the included 3.14, but couldn't find it in Experimental. Is there an easy way to install it?
3 • RE: 2 (by Pumpino on 2014-08-25 10:19:35 GMT from Australia)
I guess I didn't search properly...
4 • SolydXK abandoning the rolling release model (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-25 12:24:51 GMT from United States)
I'm sure this is due to the time lags involved in reviewing and publishing, but it should be noted that the SolydXK semi-rolling model described above will be changing to one that follows Debian stable, and the home edition will merge into the business edition. This is detailed in the following release:
5 • MATE or Flashback (by viktor on 2014-08-25 13:28:32 GMT from France)
Can someone explain me the need for a MATE flavour when it was already possible to simply use the Gnome 3 Flashback package to have the same desktop?
I guess MATE may be lighter but then if you want lightweight why not go all the way down to LXDE then? Or just XFCE?
6 • SolydXK Changes (by dhinds on 2014-08-25 13:31:42 GMT from Mexico)
According to the link you provided (thanks for that) the upcoming changes (once Debian Jessie replaces Wheezy & becomes Debian Stable) will NOT do away with Debian Testing but rather, support it only through the SolydXK Community, and not the SokydXK staff itself.
Update Packs will no long be provided and it will be depend directly on Debian Testing, which is not expected to result in major problems.
Other Distros (i.e. Sparky Linux) will continue to be based on Debian Testing. Apparently, SolydXK is following the lead of it's parent, LMDE,
7 • Future of SolydXK (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-08-25 13:43:19 GMT from Ecuador)
@ #4: This link is more clear and detailed:
Basically, they will offer a new "Enthusiast's Edition" to replace the current Home Edition, and it will essentially be Debian Testing plus SolydXK's custom packages. It won't be as rock stable as the current SolydXK.
8 • SolydXK changes (by Rocky on 2014-08-25 13:47:22 GMT from Ireland)
@6. Although SolydXK did initially arise from LMDE it is not correct to regard LMDE as it's parent in that there is no ongoing relationship. The decision to go to a stable base arose independently in both distros at about the same time. The SolydXK team is small and the Update Pack system was eating up too much developer time and preventing the team from focussing on its primary target "market" - small business , not for profits and municipal authorities.
9 • MATE or flashback (by fernbap on 2014-08-25 14:24:25 GMT from Portugal)
"Can someone explain me the need for a MATE flavour when it was already possible to simply use the Gnome 3 Flashback package to have the same desktop?"
A desktop is more than its default look. It is not how it looks, it is what you can do with it and how.
Gnome 3 infuriated gnome users by removing most of its functionality and by doing things in a way that is not suitable for a desktop computer.
We have all functionality with MATE, besides making it look like whatever we want. It is irrelevant whether we can make Gnome 3 look like Gnome 2. It still is uncapable of doing what we could do with Gnome 2.
Besides, many companion products were made for Gnome 2 that can't be used on Gnome 3, like Compiz. with which we can chose exactly which and how many eye candy we want.
The fact that Gnome 3 is incompatible with thousands of freely available GTK2 and Metacity themes that are, on Gnome 2 or MATE, extremely simple to use.
We can do whatever we want with MATE, while with Gnome 3 we are stuck with whatever the Gnome developers have decided we want, and they are too stubburn to admit that what we want is not what dey did.
10 • Installing any Linux kernel, in minutes after source-code is available. (by gregzeng on 2014-08-25 14:43:24 GMT from Australia)
To quickly update (or downgrade) almost any Debian-based distro to any Linux kernel, download the files needed from:
Put the two or three files of interest (header & an image files, <70 Mbytes, total) on your desktop. Double-click them, & they will self-install in seconds, after asking for the admin password.
If you need to have dirty hands, use the terminal command from the desktop:
sudo dpkg -i *.deb
I found the latest RC & kernels are available, several hours (minutes?) after the source-code is released. Some claim Arch-based distros are uptodate. Using the PPA methods, I found that the Ubuntu-based distros are updated, much quicker.
11 • RE: 9 • MATE or flashback (by fernbap..from Portugal) (by Az4x4 on 2014-08-25 15:16:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
" 'Can someone explain me the need for a MATE flavour when it was already possible to simply use the Gnome 3 Flashback package to have the same desktop?' "
"A desktop is more than its default look. It is not how it looks, it is what you can do with it and how.
Gnome 3 infuriated gnome users by removing most of its functionality and by doing things in a way that is not suitable for a desktop computer.
We have all functionality with MATE, besides making it look like whatever we want. It is irrelevant whether we can make Gnome 3 look like Gnome 2. It still is uncapable of doing what we could do with Gnome 2....."
Very well said. Couldn't agree more..
You can make Gnome 3 "look" something like Gnome 2, but it still doesn't have the capabilities and functionality that Gnome 2 became world famous for.
Little wonder that keeping Gnome 2 dead and buried was impossible. Restored to vibrant new health by way of the MATE project, the Gnome 2 experience is again claiming hearts and minds with its depth of character and ability to be easily configured the way each user desires it to be configured. MATE puts the concept of "personal computing" back in the desktop where it belonged all along.
12 • First Impressions of SolydXK 201407 (by Orbmiser on 2014-08-25 15:35:04 GMT from United States)
"The other application I felt deserved a mention was the system services management program. This application acts as a graphical front end to systemd and I felt it lacked polish. The names of services are not easily recognizable. Further, there are three status fields and these are not particularly intuitive. "
A show of hands please of SolydXK users that actually use this program day to day? Number low of actual users? And what does a Debian program have to do with SolydXK? As comes across that this a SolydXK thing then in actuality a Debian thing.
Sorry just don't see the need to tag SolydXK for something outside their perview.
13 • First Impressions of SolydXK 201407 (by Ghostdawg on 2014-08-25 16:59:47 GMT from United States)
I gave SolydXK a try awhile back and really enjoyed it. I ran if for around a month. The one reason I stopped using it was the Forum kept asking for verification and I believe it didn't accept my email address (or maybe it was my IP address) for some strange reason. I also wasn't able to get it resolved through their IRC channel.
14 • SolydXK (by KickRocks on 2014-08-25 18:13:15 GMT from Sweden)
I tried the latest release, it does not "play nice" with UEFI/secure boot (turned off secure boot in Bios). I could not boot to live DVD.
15 • Backdoors... wherefore art thou? (by Scott Dowdle on 2014-08-25 18:37:41 GMT from United States)
I concur with Jesse Smith about the backdoor situation. Why put a backdoor in a particular distro when there are probably already at least a half dozen 0days in any given mainline kernel? Wait. That's not what he said but you get the point.
I'm not complaining. That's just the nature of such a huge and mature software project... there will always be bugs and some of those bugs will have security implications.
Why wouldn't Red Hat allow a backdoor? Because they know it would have a devastating impact on their business if it got out. I'm not aware of any legit software that has been caught implementing a backdoor for a government. Oh wait, RSA did get a bunch of cash to use less secure code. I don't necessarily believe that Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X have backdoors... because there are enough bugs that lend themselves to infiltration and the last twenty years of existence has proven they aren't going away any time soon.
And if you are going to be paranoid... why only be paranoid about binary packages from commercial companies in the US? How hard would it be for state-sponsored programmers to infiltrate community-based distros... and obviscate backdoors within source code?
16 • Confusion surrounding Ubuntu's "gnome-session-flashback" (by eco2geek on 2014-08-25 19:10:28 GMT from United States)
The package "gnome-session-flashback" is an Ubuntu-maintained package that will give you a desktop that highly resembles the look and feel of GNOME 2. I think it's what Canonical quietly did to make users who preferred GNOME 2 happy.
It is not in the Debian (stable) repositories.
It is _not_ the same as the "classic" session you can get if you install GNOME 3. Unlike GNOME 3's "classic" session, it is very customizable. It uses Ubuntu's app-indicators; you can add buttons and launchers to the top and bottom panels just like you could with GNOME 2 (although you have to press Meta+Alt while right-clicking); you can add Compiz effects like a desktop cube; etc. It uses apps from GNOME 3.
(The one limitation that it seems to have - correct me if I'm wrong - is that you're stuck with the Ambiance and Radiance themes. But they're not bad-looking. Also, since it uses current GNOME applications, you may wish to find and install another file manager, since Nautilus 3.10.1 is a bit brain-dead.)
I was going to post a recommendation for people to check out "gnome-session-flashback" if they're already running Ubuntu and are interested in MATE.
Hopefully the folks who produce Ubuntu MATE will include some aspects that differentiate it from Mint's existing version of MATE, which is quite good and based on Ubuntu.
17 • Backdoors (by Barnabyh on 2014-08-25 19:48:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
Am I correct in thinking that compiling from source like in Crux or even with additional applications and libraries for Slackware would make software that is compromised in this way less likely?
Unless of course, as Jesse stated, the compiler has already been infiltrated.
18 • OpenStreetMap (by AleCon on 2014-08-25 20:11:55 GMT from Italy)
So glad your donation scheme took in consideration OpenStreetMap.
It is a great project and certainly deserve the support of the Linux community. Keep on this excellent work guys!
19 • Gnome3 vs. Mate (by linuxista on 2014-08-25 20:35:16 GMT from United States)
--Gnome3 has crippled nautilus in a number of serious ways. No doubt this was a hugely anti-desktop functionality move. Sure looks pretty, though!
--Gnome3 has a great choice of themes and they're all supported and keep up with new Gnome releases, as long as you never want anything other than Adwaita or Adwaita (global dark).
--Gnome3 has Mutter and Mate has Compiz. On this one I have to go with Gnome3. My experience with Compiz is it's bloated and buggy, and I like Gnome3's combined scale/expo mode with one hot corner. Just sayin. :)
--Gnome3 has the app-search functionality while Gnome2/Mate has the cascading drop down menu. I much prefer the Gnome3, Unity, KDE, Xfce Whisker menu approach.
--Gnome3 is user-config unfriendly. But I never thought Gnome2 was significantly better. At least not compared to KDE, XFCE and certainly openbox, etc.
::Given some of the other passionate comments in support of Yerba Mate, as a former Gnome2 user I'm thinking maybe I missed something. Aside from Compiz, which I can install with Xfce, what is it about Gnome2 that was so amazing about its "capabilities and functionality" that makes it "world famous?" That allows you to do "whatever we want" that is so much more "suitable for a desktop computer?" I don't want to catch any heat. I'm genuinely interested in hearing about these features that I may have overlooked.
20 • Mate (by CED on 2014-08-25 21:02:24 GMT from United States)
I never had luck with Mate. I found it unstable at one point or another. Cinnamon was always a better option for me.
Using it now with Antergos without an issue.
21 • Backdoors (by EarlyBird on 2014-08-25 21:31:05 GMT from Canada)
15) and 17) re backdoors in software:
It gets worse - there can be "backdoors in hardware!
Think about the bios on your motherboard, the firmware in your router and hard drives. Not only do you have to worry about the US government, but also the Chinese government, or the government or spy agencies of the country where your hardware was produced! Apparently there are even companies selling hacks and products tointentionally compromise such hardware. Supposedly government agencies would have no problem accessing the premises of their chosen target to install such hacks? Preinstalling backdoors at point of manufacture eliminates these issues. For a while it was thought that products from Cisco were safer than from a Chinese competitor that was coming up big in the marketplace (think it was Hawei? Not sure about the spelling). Now, who knows? I still have my trusty pen and paper and invisible ink, as well as some slide rules and maybe an abacus. Think the typewriter may still be buried in a mini-black hole around here as well. Still those solutions don't enable me to pass on my paranoias to the rest of you (at least, not so easily and efficiently). For now, maybe the best we can all do is for EVERYONE to "salt" all their communications with "tags' like Obama, war, bomb, NSA, etc. Short of firing off all our leaders into the sun (as in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy), it's hard to imagine what else the average person can do. And recently, NASA can't even send their own astronauts into space themselves. Oooh, maybe we should have all those experts at NSA working at NASA.....
22 • GNOME Flashback screenshots (by eco2geek on 2014-08-25 21:32:28 GMT from United States)
Running on Ubuntu 12.04 and 14.04.
23 • SolydX 201407 and MATE (by mikef90000 on 2014-08-25 21:36:58 GMT from United States)
Just fired up the latest SolydX iso, and I see why Jesse overlooked the SolydX Software Manager. Unlike the 201404 release, the S/M does not appear in the default Favorites list. It is accessible only when 'All' is selected in the menu. Hopefully this is a bug and not a new feature.
The default theme is the GTK version of the KDE Oxygen theme that the devs have further enhanced - I find it very pleasing but YMMV.
Until this review I was not aware of the new 'system services management program' apparently provided by the systemd-ui package. Despite its vestigal appearance it is at version 3-2. What does Fedora use and is it any better?
@19, as an Xfce user I'm with you. I asked the exact same 'Xfce vs MATE/Gnome2' question long ago on the Mint forum and IIRC the only MATE plus was network access from nautilus. No longer a thunar deficit. I'm also curious about this 'world famous capabilities and functionality'.
24 • re:Gnome3 vs. Mate (by session on 2014-08-25 22:21:41 GMT from United States)
"--Gnome3 has Mutter and Mate has Compiz. On this one I have to go with Gnome3. My experience with Compiz is it's bloated and buggy, and I like Gnome3's combined scale/expo mode with one hot corner. Just sayin. :)"
Mate *works* with Compiz; its default wm is Marco. Marco (and Mutter) is rock solid; I prefer it to Xfce's wm on older computers because opaque window moving is so much better. Heck, I'll argue Mate as a whole is better suited for older desktops than Xfce; it may take *marginally* more ram but individual apps (e.g. Eye of Mate vs Ristretto) run faster.
"--Gnome3 has the app-search functionality while Gnome2/Mate has the cascading drop down menu. I much prefer the Gnome3, Unity, KDE, Xfce Whisker menu approach."
Mate works well with Mintmenu, though I don't use it because it takes a lot of ram.
"--Gnome3 is user-config unfriendly. But I never thought Gnome2 was significantly better. At least not compared to KDE, XFCE and certainly openbox, etc."
Mate stresses the "sane defaults/intuitive" thing, Xfce may give you more options in the ui but Mate can be configured reasonably well with dconf.
25 • Solyd, Xfce, MATE and Gnome 2 (by cykodrone on 2014-08-26 01:28:03 GMT from Canada)
I've run both SolydX Home and Biz editions, it's a great distro with very few problems, the reason I jumped ship was because I can get Debian Wheezy Xfce to run on my Raid 0, there is no install support for Raid in Solyd (yet?). If there was Raid support, I'd still be using it. I actually managed to transform a Raid 0 Debian install in to a SolydX install, but I have Sheldon Cooper syndrome, I wanted a pure, 100% clean install, so I went back to Debian.
I can see how Software Manager got missed (maybe that was a subtle hint in the article to the maintainers?), it's there but a supposedly n00b friendly distro should have it more obvious, regardless of DE.
I never found Gnome 2 or MATE to be that great or functional, I can accomplish way more in Xfce than I ever did in Gnome 2 or MATE. I'll be the first to admit I have some Gnome 2 packages and apps installed (I have full system sounds in Xfce thanks to canberra), but that's what's great about Xfce, compatibility and tweakability across the board, Gnome 2 was and MATE still is a little too locked down for my blood, maybe locked down is too strong a term, they're just not as customize friendly as Xfce. I won't even mention abomination Gnome 3. "Flashback" to what? Zero functionality? Don't make me laugh. There's no law that says you can't install gtk3 anything in Xfce or MATE, I have loads of gtk3 files installed in Xfce and everything works fine.
I don't know if MATE fixed the renaming and overwriting of certain directories in Debian yet, but I tried to install MATE as a second DE on my Xfce system a while ago via MATE's repo, MATE worked but it trashed Xfce during the install process, never again, burn me once...
26 • RE: 10 (by Pumpino on 2014-08-26 02:07:37 GMT from Australia)
Those DEBs are for Ubuntu. Is it really a good idea to install them in SolydX?
27 • @16: Gnome3, Mate and gnome-session-flashback (by Hoos on 2014-08-26 05:21:19 GMT from Singapore)
@eco2geek: I have some questions about gnome-session-flashback.
1. when installed, will it default to 2D desktop effects automatically if the hardware isn't 3D capable?
2. I can't even run Gnome3 distros due to my old hardware (see? That's one big difference between between Gnome3, and MATE with or without Compiz). So it's not as if I can install a Gnome3 Ubuntu-derivative distro, log into the desktop, then install gnome-session-flashback. Am I right in saying that I would have to log into the distro in text mode and install gnome-session-flashback via command line?
Of course, if I had to do that, why in the world would I install a Gnome3 distro in the first place just to get gnome-session-flashback?
I might as well install a MATE distro, which again is another reason for MATE to exist ! :-)
28 • PiSi Cheatsheet mention (by :wq on 2014-08-26 06:55:25 GMT from United States)
Will PiSi be added back to the Package Management Cheatsheet? As far as I know, only Pisi Linux and Ikey Doherty's Evolve OS use it. I don't know of any other distros that have picked up apk, but Alpine's installed base may be larger than Pisi's and Evolve OS's combined at this point in time (pure speculation on my part), and thus apk documentation may be more in demand. Also, while Pisi is a fork/continuation of the old Pardus, and Evolve OS is somewhat of spiritual successor to SolusOS 2, Alpine Linux is well-established and reasonably historically steady. If PiSi isn't added back, "In contrast, PiSi, originally developed by Pardus Linux, is a relatively new utility" should be edited from the Cheatsheet.
29 • gnome2/mate vs. xfce (by linuxista on 2014-08-26 14:29:19 GMT from United States)
@27 Can I ask what gnome2/mate has that is significantly different/better than xfce (assuming you have experience w/ both)?
30 • OpenStreetMap (by cykodrone on 2014-08-26 14:47:23 GMT from Canada)
Thank you ever so much for your donation to them and for making me aware of their existence, I had no idea there was such a site. I've been looking for a GnsaGLE Maps replacement. I need to know where prospective employers are for transit reasons, which is none of GnsaGLE's busines.
Re backdoors: I have my router positioned so I can watch the traffic activity lights, I got in to this habit from my trojan infested Windhose days, my Debian is only 'chatty' when it's supposed to be.
31 • @28 (by jaws222 on 2014-08-26 14:53:22 GMT from United States)
" Ikey Doherty's Evolve OS "
Ikey's back in the game? Interesting.
32 • @29 (by Hoos on 2014-08-26 15:02:44 GMT from Singapore)
I use both in different distros, and in fact use more of XFCE (Manjaro, SolydX, MX14) than MATE (Mint).
My point was to compare Gnome3 and MATE, suggest why having the gnome-session-flashback package for Gnome3 may not be that helpful when you have old hardware in the first place, and why therefore there is a reason for MATE to exist.
If you refer to my caption in post 27, I did not mention XFCE and was addressing earlier questions asking, why have MATE? Why not use Gnome3 in classic mode or the flashback package?
I note you mentioned the search capability in XFCE through the whisker menu, but as far as I know, the latter wasn't developed by XFCE developers but by a 3rd party developer. On that basis, is it really fair to ascribe the great functionality in Whisker (hey, all 3 of my XFCE distros have it and I really like it!) to XFCE and use it as a plus point against MATE?
As you can see, I tend to be pretty inclusive about all the different DEs around.
33 • Mate and Xfce (by session on 2014-08-26 22:04:06 GMT from United States)
I have a reason to prefer Mate to Xfce: it works better on *my* hardware. Resuming from hibernate doesn't give a black screen, volumed doesn't need to be delayed to prevent from hijacking the wrong keys, native applications are snappier...
Cosmetically, too, I prefer Mate's "sane defaults" approach; for example, Xfce has two separate settings applets that control the same dpms feature (perhaps for the sake of modularity). Some take issue with it, but Gnome2/Mate is a more tightly integrated de, so I can, say, right-click a panel sub-menu and add it as a drawer to the panel.
I prefer Caja to Thunar for better implemented tab functionality. I vastly prefer Marco to Xfwm for better implemented opaque window moving. Xfce has some great traits: an excellent batch utility, a better way of handling removable media... but case by case, I prefer Mate.
34 • hardware backdoors (by spokewell on 2014-08-27 03:40:41 GMT from Australia)
#21 Very enlightening. You speak of things that others rarely speak of - well done.
35 • Mate & Xfce (by linuxista on 2014-08-27 03:50:01 GMT from United States)
@32 Sorry, I had questions of my own. But I am interested in Gnome3 vs. yerbaMATE also.
@33 Thanks. That was very informative. It seems aside from polish, rendering and small bugs, it comes back to the panel. I always assumed the task manager in the panel to be the thing everybody missed, but you seem to be talking about the functionality of the applets, drawers, etc. on it.
36 • @27 - re: gnome-session-flashback (by eco2geek on 2014-08-27 05:25:22 GMT from United States)
1. Flashback will put entries in lightdm (assuming you're using lightdm) for sessions with or without compiz.
2. You would need to have some Ubuntu-based distro already installed in order to install gnome-session-flashback. I guess that's the biggest drawback. On the other hand, it could be Xubuntu or Lubuntu, neither of which require support for accelerated graphics.
(The downside would be that you'd potentially have applications from the other desktop environment cluttering up your menus. Flashback actually dovetails pretty well with Unity in this regard.)
If I was in your shoes, I'd probably install Linux Mint 17 MATE, if MATE is what you want.
37 • @36 - gnome-session-flashback (by Hoos on 2014-08-27 08:34:44 GMT from Singapore)
Thanks eco2geek. So Flashback can be installed in Ubuntu derivatives other than those with Gnome3. Looks like it will pull in lots of gnome3 stuff though. I agree that if I were already running an Ubuntu derivative with XFCE or LXDE, I probably wouldn't want or need the flashback package, due to the clutter of additional apps for each task.
Unity and Cinnamon are in the same boat as Gnome3 - can't run on systems without 3D graphics.
So Gnome3's classic mode and flashback is only helpful if the user already wants and is able to run Gnome3.
I do have Mint 17 Mate installed. But I've noticed that distros based on the Ubuntu 14.04 LTS seem to run slower and with higher CPU usage on my system compared to 12.04 LTS. And I've tried 14.04 in Mint, Lubuntu (LXDE), elementary 'Freya' beta (Pantheon), Voyager (XFCE).
Mate seems to run much faster and lighter in the latest PCLinuxOS and WattOS.
38 • @ 37 Try Debian based XFCE or Mate (by Frank on 2014-08-27 10:53:45 GMT from Germany)
Noticed the same on my netbook thus switched from Ubuntu/Mint to Debian based XFCE some 3 years ago and will never look back.
Lighter, faster, more stable and less hot CPU (up to 20°C less on i3 cpu and some workload).
Both Debian stable and testing are rock solid.
Sparky Linux (Debian testing based) and Point Linux (stable) offer Mate out of the Box.
BTW: WattOS 8 is based on Debian now.
39 • @28 & @31 (by IkeyDoherty on 2014-08-27 12:35:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
@28: You're not wrong, the Evolve OS repo is somewhat lacking in size right now. With that said, its never going to be enormous and I strictly forbid it from ever happening, scope limitation is enforced to keep the project on target :)
Also note we use a fork of the original PiSi, as nowhere in public did we see it as maintained or actively developed. It wasn't a fork until long ago, because I essentially just continued developing it However the Pisi Linux guys say that they maintain pisi, so asked us to rename. Logistics aside, I'm happy people don't confuse the two as there is no binary compatibility and our code has already diverged. So, a fork of pisi it is :)
@31: I am indeed :)
40 • md5s and (by afcas86 on 2014-08-27 13:22:47 GMT from United States)
It seems to me that whenever I download something from Source Forge, there is never a cksum. Do I need new glasses or have they joined the dark side?
41 • SourceForge (by Bobby on 2014-08-27 13:45:08 GMT from Canada)
When you download a file from SourceForge there is an information icon next to the file. clicking the information icon (looks like a small "i") will display checksums for the file, both md5 and sha1.
42 • @39 (by :wq on 2014-08-27 14:47:25 GMT from United States)
eopkg- Sorry I didn't expressly state that, but I was focused on the commands for the cheat sheet, which seem to remain the same at this point, though I haven't run through all of them.
"the Evolve OS repo is somewhat lacking in size right now"
Yeah, but I'm willing to give the Evolve OS Project time to mature... I don't expect perfection until beta phase. I'm generous like that. :)
43 • @37 - more gnome-session-flashback (by eco2geek on 2014-08-27 15:24:59 GMT from United States)
> So Gnome3's classic mode and flashback is only helpful if the user already wants
> and is able to run Gnome3.
Not exactly, there's a difference in that GNOME 3's "classic" mode still requires accelerated (i.e. 3D) graphics, while Ubuntu's "flashback" doesn't. (Although, as with MATE, you can use compiz with it if you want to and your hardware supports it.)
44 • #43 - more gnome-session-flashback (by Hoos on 2014-08-27 17:25:17 GMT from Singapore)
Yes, I understood your explanation, but I'm just following your comment about clutter and repetition to arrive at a conclusion based on practicality.
If you install the flashback package when you're already on an XFCE/LXDE Ubuntu derivative, you might have to spend time removing or tweaking your system to remove the repeat applications or neaten the clutter unless it doesn't bother you.
If your aim is to have a Gnome2-type distro right from the start on your older hardware, would it not be easier to install a MATE distro, instead of first installing the XFCE or LXDE Ubuntu derivative, then installing 'flashback' and then removing the clutter?
Also, if I'm already on an XFCE distro, I would not really need the flashback package to get a Gnome2-like layout or functionality. XFCE is close enough, IMO, and can be tweaked. If you want a "true" Gnome2 experience OOTB, there is MATE.
So unless you just want flashback to exist side by side with your initial DE and you are ok with the clutter, I concluded that ultimately the flashback package is not that helpful to users with non-3D capabilities who wish a Gnome2 experience.
45 • XFCE deficiencies (by PePa on 2014-08-27 17:29:31 GMT from Thailand)
For me, MATE or Gnome-flashback is usable, XFCE is not. The main XFCE deficiencies are:
1. Lack of a decent integrated time zone watcher (world clocks) -- I use gsimplecal for this, but it has to be launched as an application, the one bundled with XFCE is laughable and unusable.
2. No free positioning of icons on the desktop, and poor configurability of the desktop. The icons take too much space. PCManFM can be used instead, but it's a bit of a fiddle to replace the XFCE desktop manager. In the end, I still prefer Nautilus, even in its current downhill stage.
46 • @42 (by IkeyDoherty on 2014-08-27 19:33:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hah, thank you, very kind :) Evolve OS has a slightly longer development than some projects as Budgie is being developed in parallel. Actually really happy with the gnome-panel-theme-integration, and how far its come lately, check https://plus.google.com/+IkeyDoherty/posts/95i6Lo2ngkL :)
(Relevant due to GNOME Flashback comments here) - this isn't the default look, the default is the Chrome OS inspired shots you may have seen dotted around the interwebz :)
47 • @46 (by jaws222 on 2014-08-27 20:30:49 GMT from United States)
I sure do miss SolusOS and Gnome 2. That was one cool OS. I look forward to EvolveOS and I know you will make Gnome3 look good.
48 • @45 "Xfce deficiencies" (by cykodrone on 2014-08-27 21:05:49 GMT from Canada)
1. No timezone watcher is a major complaint? You are kidding right? Try gworldclock, choose your time-zones (and save them), arrange them, leave gworldclock running, then set Xfce to remember its sessions, that's what I do, gworldclock starts every time, in the exact same place and workspace (1of 6). I don't know of any DEs that have what you described as a major built in feature. If it's YOUR timezone you're talking about, you can set it in Settings-Time And Date.
2. Again, I have no clue what Xfce version you are using, but my 4.8 allows icon resizing (I find size 31 to be the best size, makes for a better 'grid'). Not only that, I move icons around all the time, and every time I boot, they are exactly where I left them during the previous session. I have no problem configuring my 'Desktop', it's been customized to the boobs (1 transparent panel at the bottom, custom background colour, custom wallpaper, etc, etc, even my Desktop icon text shadow, colour, font, size, selected and not selected appearance are custom). Any search engine will reveal numerous Xfce tips and tricks.
You are either new to Linux and Xfce or you're just a fanboi zealot.
49 • @48 (by jaws222 on 2014-08-27 21:44:41 GMT from United States)
" it's been customized to the boobs "
That is why I love XFCE because it is highly customizable. I also like Mate but if you put a gun to my head I'd have to go XFCE. Also a big fan of Openbox because of its simplicity.
50 • @48 XFCE (by PePa on 2014-08-28 01:28:38 GMT from Thailand)
Not a zealot not new to Linux here. Not hating on XFCE at all, just outlining why it doesn't work for me after many years of trying.
The solution you mention, gworldclock, is a separate application, ugly, with horrible usability. In Gnome you can have a list of all the timezones you'd like to see as part of the clock applet. In LXDE it's easy to integrate gsimplecal into the clock (beautiful, but needs to be configured by editor).
On the XFCE desktop, my issue is that you're stuck to the grid, there is no pixel-positioning like in most other desktop managing solutions.
51 • Backdoors and Paranoia++ (by Ricardo on 2014-08-28 02:52:35 GMT from Argentina)
You wanna get really paranoid about software?
Then read Ken Thompson's Trusting Trust and you'll never.. er.. trust your software again :)
52 • @46 - Ike: EvolveOS, 3D graphics? (by Hoos on 2014-08-28 07:07:56 GMT from Singapore)
Welcome back, Ikey. I'm another one who was sad at SolusOS' demise.
I downloaded the Alpha3 of EvolveOS to try.
Unfortunately, my PC is 32-bit so I could only try it on my laptop but currently (as you are of course aware!), there's no connecting of wifi, so I couldn't actually do too much with Alpha3. :-P
Apart from that, Budgie desktop environment looks beautiful and runs smooth and fast.
And since you brought up the gnome-session-flashback discussion, does Budgie require 3D graphics a la Gnome3/Unity/Cinnamon to work?
53 • @47 @52 (by IkeyDoherty on 2014-08-28 09:13:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
@47: Apologies I did reply to your comment, but somehow it disappeared. I merely mentioned I looked forward to some beta-feedback (when we get to beta, obviously :))
@52: Thank you kind sir ^^ Yeah I kinda had to make a choice with the toolchain thing, and decided to only support 64-bit (not x86 and x86_64) due to limited resources. Yeah.. that wifi problem.. ^^ It will actually be resolved with Budgie v7 & the next Evolve ISO. We already have x11 tray support so we're going to use that until indicators etc are in.
I'm glad you like it, thank you :) It does require 3D as internally it uses libmutter, though arguably still quite fast. It will become possible to enable switching window manager for debugging purposes, but within Budgie, budgie-wm handles the desktop wallpaper. Something to be aware of :)
54 • @45+50 PePa: Xfce and MATE (by Kazlu on 2014-08-28 09:41:46 GMT from France)
Funny, I personnally don't use MATE for the same kind of details :) I call them details because these are clearly not major DE features, but those details can be deal breakers. You said "No free positioning of icons on the desktop" when you actually meant that icons are tied to a grid, that was maybe a bit strong wasn't it? :) But I see what you mean. I feel the opposite, I prefer having icons positioned on a grid, I don't have many and my desktop feels cleaner that way.
Here are my small deal breakers with MATE, that I otherwise find quite good:
1. Poor handling of vertical panels, in particular the time and date applet writes vertically, not practical at all.
2. I couldn't find a proper way of quickly find applications with a text search, like the one in the KDE kickoff meny, Whisker menu, Xfce's appfinder, Unity, etc. I tried MintMenu but I found it a bit slow and above all the search field has not focus at opening, which require to use your mouse (or hitting tab repeatedly) to get there... Really subobtimal.
Note that those two points would be dealt with if I used glx-dock as a panel in MATE. I used it for a while in Xfce and it was quite good but also a bit ressource-hungry and still not as good as xfce4-panel for what I need.
Also, a fundamental difference between Xfce and MATE is that the former is modular and the latter is not: MATE components are strongly tied to each other in the form of dependancies. That makes it more natural to swap an app for another that is not part of the DE in Xfce than in MATE, you use only the ressources you need. But if you're happy with all the MATE apps then MATE is great!
That being said, I have now a problem with the Xfce desktop: I lack a proper archive manager. I used to use file-roller in Xubuntu but now that I did a fresh Debian install I would really like to avoid polluting my system with a lot of GNOME dependancies just for one app, especially if in the future I have to deal with client-side-decorations. Neither Squeeze nor Xarchiver are able to deal with my 7z crypted archives. I also tried peazip in portable version, but it does not support subfolders inside my archives, every file is on the same level, argh. I am considering Engrampa (MATE's fork of file-foller), but it has Caja as a dependancy, which itself has a lot of MATE dependancies... If I can install Engrampa without Caja then I'll give it a try, else I'm pretty much screwed... If someone has a suggestion here, it would be much appreciated!
55 • @51 Backdoors and paranoia++ (by Kazlu on 2014-08-28 11:07:34 GMT from France)
Very interesting and very instructive, thanks! And it was written 30 years ago, today it is even more amazing considering the place computers have in our world...
56 • Absolute (by Comp-Tech on 2014-08-28 14:52:16 GMT from Nicaragua)
I am very pleased to see Absolute linux make a resurgence...I always found it a very good and easy to use implimentation of Slackware.
Re Solyd I found it to be quite a nice distro.but then most entitied of Debian are similar. and without Rolling release it loses any of what made it interesting....
I found the Best Rolling release Debian i have used is AntiX i have never had many issues at all with it.
so now i have Antix, Manjaro, both rolling and no problems...with my new to be installed Absolute and not to forget mylatest version Knoppix dvd...which first got me interested in linux many years ago...
57 • @54 7z archiver (by linuxista on 2014-08-28 15:03:36 GMT from United States)
p7zip is in the arch repos, hopefully in Debian repos or at least Ubu ppa.
58 • @57 p7zip (by Kazlu on 2014-08-28 16:40:59 GMT from France)
p7zip is indeed in the Debian repos. Actually Xarchiver and Squeeze have it as an optional dependancy, but unfortunately support for 7z archives still doesn't work. This bug has already been reported loooong ago in both cases (see http://sourceforge.net/p/xarchiver/bugs/29/ and https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2911). I could still use p7zip in command line, but I was used to just open the archive, read a couple of files, eventually add one or two and close it via GUI, everything was handeled automatically, included crypting. Dropping to command line would mean decompressing and decrypting the whole archive every time, do my changes and re-compress and re-crypt the whole thing... Less easy, involving more time and leaving a trace of my data in clear. I wish I could avoid that.
59 • @54+58 (by :wq on 2014-08-29 12:13:07 GMT from United States)
For Xfce, I can live with Engrampa's dependencies. It's certainly nothing on the level of File Roller or Ark dependency-wise. Given what you've written, I think Engrampa is probably your best option.
GUI 7z support:
• Squeeze has no 7z support.
• Xarchiver can open and add to password-protected 7z archives, but not if the file names are encrypted.
• PeaZip will display subfolders if you use it to create the 7z archive. However, if you try to add subfolders or files to a folder in that now existent 7z archive, they are added to the archive's root directory instead (https://code.google.com/p/peazip/issues/detail?id=59). If you use p7zip to create a 7z archive, as you experienced, there may be an issue where if you open the resultant archive in PeaZip, PeaZip will not display folders at all, due to the archive being displayed in flat view (https://code.google.com/p/peazip/issues/detail?id=159 & https://code.google.com/p/peazip/issues/detail?id=3).
• In Debian, Engrampa has caja-common and libcaja-extension1 as dependencies (along with a few other packages), but the entirety of Caja isn't installed.
• FreeArc can open encrypted 7z archives, but only creates archives in its own .arc format.
• B1 Free Archiver is written in Qt, though it is not awful dependency-wise (it does, however, require glibc >= 2.14), but it can only create archives in .zip format or its own .b1 format (it can open encrypted 7z archives).
• File Roller & Ark are not really options, IMO, due to their dependencies.
60 • follow-up to #59 (by :wq on 2014-08-29 13:09:14 GMT from United States)
I should have mentioned that installing File Roller without the addition of recommended packages makes it much more palatable.
61 • @59+60 :wq 7zip (by Kazlu on 2014-08-29 14:15:49 GMT from France)
Thanks for the advises.
"• Xarchiver can open and add to password-protected 7z archives, but not if the file names are encrypted."
Oh, that explains it :)
"• In Debian, Engrampa has caja-common and libcaja-extension1 as dependencies (along with a few other packages), but the entirety of Caja isn't installed."
Yesterday I tried to install Engrampa in Debian live before trying it in my actual system. I indeed realized what you describe, I admit I had only checked Engrampa's dependancies usink the Arch Linux wiki :) I also considered it reasonable and Engrampa worked like a charm.
"• File Roller & Ark are not really options, IMO, due to their dependencies."
I read that Ark did not support encrypted archives anyway, but maybe that changed. I will only consider Ark if I switch to the Qt side of the Force.
Thanks again, Engrampa seems indeed to be my best option and meets all my requirements. Thanks to the MATE team for doing GNOME apps right :)
62 • To Ikey Doherty - and to the MATE developers (by Ted H on 2014-08-29 19:58:34 GMT from United States)
From Ted H, formerly posting as TH...
To Ikey Doherty - Why are you going with Gnome3 instead of the Gnome2-fork MATE??
The only drawback to MATE is that Gnome2 would enable the user to right-click on an icon of a stick drive and had the option to format it, and the MATE developers removed that function for some unfathomable reason.
Still, take a look at what Point Linux did with MATE - Simple, clean, usable - making it a natural upgrade path for Windows XP users. Many of us do not like Gnome3, and would probably be wary even of your version of Gnome3 (and I was a big fan of Solus OS), so I do trust you to do a fine job of whatever you program. Please reassure me that you have a good handle on taming Gnome3 to make it more acceptable to those of us who like Gnome2/MATE) (??!) - Thanks! (A fan who was dismayed that you, understandably, pulled the plug on Solus OS. I understand your need to have secure steady income and more time with your family. Obvious and understood: Family first and economic security first, everything/everyone else, second!
To the MATE developers: How about restoring that formatting function?! The lack of it forces users to have another linux OS handy to do so! (Dual-boot on a given computer, or use two different computers!) Very poor/dåligt!
(Yes, GParted is provided, but it is like shooting rabbits with an elephant gun, plus one really needs to know what they are doing to avoid a big Ooops! I formatted the wrong drive! The formatting function in the Gnome2 menu was simple and mistake-proof when formatting the stickdrive!)
Ted H in Minnesota
63 • @62 (by IkeyDoherty on 2014-08-29 23:08:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi there :)
I can assure you my reasons for shutting down SolusOS had nothing to do with either finance or family. What you are stating unfortunately comes through many skewed sources that I have suffered reading over the last year, with ever increasing degradation in quality..
One rumour was that I gave up SolusOS to start a new job, despite already being in said job for 6 months before starting it. The irony also being I work exclusively with open source software :P
Anyway, no sense in me repeating myself for the rest of my life, so on to your point about GNOME 3.
When most people say GNOME 3 they mean the Shell, which is incorrect in the context of Budgie. It does not use shell. Myself, personally, I really dislike Shell.
We use GNOME technologies, but so does everyone. Whether its glib, or network-manager, or libgweather, or pwquality, or various tons of projects that are part of the GNOME umbrella, in one way or another we're all using them.
This is what Budgie does. The window manager is built around libmutter, as is GNOME Shell, and Gala from Pantheon. Budgie uses its own session manager, and the panel is written in Vala/GTK3 by myself. Please see: https://github.com/evolve-os/budgie-desktop/
So in reality I am not taming anything, I'm creating something new by using things that exist :) I gain the advantage of integration, a far lower technical debt and a healthy upstream relationship with various projects, putting me in a position I thoroughly enjoy :)
Also note that budgie-desktop is simply one source package that can already be installed on 5 distributions, and officially in 1 derivative, and available in many other derivatives. As opposed to a vast number of packages for MATE that I do not need.
Also note MATE completely goes the traditional route of GNOME2, whereas Budgie doesn't. As an option, you can in fact make it look and behave very much like GNOME2, but this is not the default :)
Please see https://evolve-os.com/budgie/
64 • followup to Ikey (by Ted H on 2014-08-30 15:46:05 GMT from United States)
Sorry for my mis-information.
Thanks for your clarification on the nature and direction your upcoming Evolve will be.
I look forward to using it when you issue it!
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