 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 572, 18 August 2014 |
Welcome to this year's 33rd issue of DistroWatch Weekly! Having a powerful tool, such as an advanced file system can be very appealing. However, having a powerful tool is only helpful if we have a way of understanding and making use of the tool. This is why it is important for operating systems to ship with documentation and comprehensive interfaces. This week we begin with a review of ZFSguru, a FreeBSD distribution which offers users an intuitive web-based interface for controling the operating system's advanced file system. In our News section we discuss changes coming to Fedora and some presentations shared at Flock, the Fedora contributor conference. We also cover Debian's progress with regards to supporting ARM64, the appointment of new members to the Gentoo Board of Trustees and share a tutorial on managing system processes, provided by openSUSE. Then we tackle the question of why many developers and users find rolling-release distributions so appealing. We wrap up this week by sharing news of recently released distributions and we look ahead to exciting new releases to come. We wish you all a fantastic week and happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Exploring ZFSguru 10.1
 A project that was recently recommended to me is ZFSguru. What is ZFSguru? According to the project's website, "ZFSguru is a multifunctional server appliance with a strong emphasis on storage. ZFSguru began as simple web-interface front-end to ZFS, but has since grown into a FreeBSD derivative with its own infrastructure. The scope of the project has also grown with the inclusion of add-on packages that add functionality beyond the traditional NAS functionality found in similar product like FreeNAS and NAS4Free. ZFSguru aims to be a true multifunctional server appliance that is extremely easy to setup and can unite both novice and more experienced users in a single user interface."
Put another way, we might think of ZFSguru as distribution of FreeBSD with a user-friendly, web-based interface which makes system administration tasks easier. The latest edition of ZFSguru is available as a 64-bit x86 build and comes in two editions: Regular and GNOME. An older version of ZFSguru with 32-bit x86 support is available. In addition, it is possible to download the ZFSguru web interface only and install this front-end on an existing FreeBSD server or workstation. The download for the main edition of ZFSguru is 378MB in size and the GNOME edition is 676MB. I opted to download the former.
Booting from the ZFSguru media brings up a text-based menu where we are given a few options. We can exit the menu and access the live media's command line, we can attempt to detect our IP address or we can reset the configuration of the web interface. There are also options for shutting down or rebooting the computer. Near the top of the menu ZFSguru displays our current IP address. Copying this address into a web browser allows us to bring up the operating system's web interface. I found that, by default, ZFSguru presents us with a web interface over the HTTP protocol only, there is no secure HTTPS option.
ZFSguru 10.1 - overview of system status
(full image size: 135kB, screen resolution 1221x1000 pixels)
The first time we connect to the web interface we are presented with a few configuration screens. The first one contains security options and here we can set a password for the web interface. We can also tell ZFSguru to accept connections only from certain locations. For example, we can have ZFSguru restrict access to just computers on our local network or, alternatively, to one specific IP address. The second configuration screen shows us a list of disks connected to our server, confirming we have the correct number of storage devices. The third screen allows us to either import an existing ZFS storage pool or create a new pool using the attached storage devices. The forth and final screen asks if we would care to send feedback or hardware related information to the ZFSguru project to help the developers improve their software. Once the configuration steps have been completed we can decide whether we wish to continue running ZFSguru from the project's live media or we can install the operating system locally in our storage pool.
The ZFSguru installer runs in the project's web-based interface and consists of three screens. First we are asked which storage pool should host our local install of the operating system. Then we confirm which version of ZFSguru we want to install. Next, we can optionally tune the ZFS storage pool, adding file system compression, file redundancy and the amount of swap space to use. The installer then shows us detailed progress reports while it copies the required files and configures the new operating system. I found my installation went very quickly, requiring about three minutes. Once the system installer finished a prompt appeared asking me to reboot the computer. Booting the local copy of ZFSguru brings up the same text-based menu we saw in the live environment and the web interface is automatically enabled for us.
For my experiment with ZFSguru I ran the operating system in a VirtualBox virtual machine. FreeBSD-based projects tend to take longer to boot than Linux distributions (at least when run in VirtualBox), but ZFSguru booted fairly quickly, requiring less than a minute to come on-line. Once up and running, ZFSguru worked quickly and the web interface was highly responsive. The operating system does not require much memory either. My installation of ZFSguru used approximately 23MB of active memory and, in total, used less than 200MB. In the past I have heard people express concern that ZFS might require too much memory to be run on low-resource machines, but I found that even with file duplication, compression and its web interface enabled, ZFSguru required only a few hundred megabytes of memory to function.
The web interface presented by ZFSguru is clean and well organized. Along the top of the screen we find a series of tabs which represent broad categories of information or actions we can explore. These tabs (Status, Network, Disks, Pools, Files, Access, Services and System) each contain their own sub-categories of options and I found most functions quite easy to locate. What follows is a summary of what each category (and sub-category) has to offer the system administrator.
The Status tab shows us a general overview of the operating system. Its various sub-tabs allow us to monitor specific aspects of the operating system. There are sub-tabs for monitoring system logs, watching processor usage and checking memory consumption. Under the Network tab we can find a list of our computer's network interfaces, the IP addresses in use and other details on the network configuration. It appears as though we cannot alter the network configuration from this tab, though we can access the operating system's command line to adjust network settings.
The Disks tab shows us the status of all connected storage devices. It also allows us to format our storage devices and monitor the health of our disks using SMART. There are utilities under the Disks tab for monitoring storage input/output and running read/write benchmarks. I ran a benchmark and was shown a graph with the results. However, the two axis of the graph were not labelled, so I was not sure what to make of the results.
In the Pools tab we can view a list of ZFS storage pools and examine feature flags enabled on the file system. Under this tab we can enable ZFS scrubs and upgrade our pool's file system. We can also delete existing storage pools, export pools, rename a pool or search for pools we may wish to import. We can further create a new storage pool, expand an existing pool to include new devices and add a "hot spare" disk. A hot spare is a disk which is not currently in use, but can be activated in the case one of our active storage devices fails.
The Files tab allows us to create new file systems within an existing storage pool. Using the Files tab we can create file system snapshots, clone a snapshot or rollback the file system to an older snapshot. The Files tab contains a file browser and offers us point-n-click ways to share our file systems using either Samba or NFS. In addition we can change the permissions and ownership of files using the Files tab.
ZFSguru 10.1 - working with file system snapshots
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Exploring the Access tab we find the ability to create Samba network shares and user accounts. We can also create NFS shares and set a password for the operating system's secure shell account. The user account set up for secure shell access does not have special (administrative) permissions by default, but the account can be used to access the root account without a password.
The Services tab provides us with the ability to enable/disable system services. Some available services in the default installation include a secure shell, a name server, the Cron daemon, Samba, NFS, a network time synchronization daemon and a packet filter. There are additional services we can install through the web interface, about 90 in total. These services include web browsers, more network services, bittorrent clients and anti-virus software.
ZFSguru 10.1 - managing system services
(full image size: 152kB, screen resolution 1221x1000 pixels)
Finally, the System tab allows us to check for software updates, perform new installations and shutdown or reboot the computer. I found the installation function worked well and, during my trial, there were no new versions of ZFSguru available. The update feature appears to check only for updates to the web interface, not the underlying FreeBSD operating system. I tried to check for updates to the core operating system from the command line, but found ZFSguru would not successfully connect to any FreeBSD mirrors to fetch updates.
Conclusions
When I went into this review I did so with the impression ZFSguru was mostly about storage and designed to deal with NAS devices. For the most part this seems to be true. ZFSguru does feature a number of functions which make it suitable for a more general purpose operating system, but the bulk of the functionality deals with disks, RAID configurations, network sharing, ZFS tweaking, snapshots and file systems. As ZFSguru is a storage-focused operating system based on FreeBSD with a web interface, I found myself constantly comparing my experience with ZFSguru to my experiences with FreeNAS. Both projects make working with ZFS easy, both automate the initial installation and configuration of the operating system, both have polished web interfaces and both projects allow the user to install additional services to extend functionality. The two projects appear to diverge in two ways. First, FreeNAS has a lot of features, many of them probably only useful in business environments. ZFSguru, on the other hand, feels more streamlined, more geared toward home and small office installations. FreeNAS has a nice, but busy interface with a large tree of option screens. The ZFSguru interface feels cleaner to me, perhaps easier to navigate because of its fewer options.
ZFSguru 10.1 - checking the status of storage pools
(full image size: 135kB, screen resolution 1221x1000 pixels)
Taken on its own, ZFSguru struck me as being a very easy to use operating system. The scope of the project may be relatively narrow when compared against a general purpose operating system such as Debian or FreeBSD, but there is a great deal of storage- and services-oriented functionality presented in the web interface. The operating system is wonderfully easy to set up, makes managing disks, pools and snapshots remarkably easy and uses very few resources. The FreeBSD base is stable and the underlying ZFS technology is very powerful and flexible. ZFSguru does a great job of presenting the powerful aspects of ZFS while being simple to use. It only took me seconds to find features I wanted, there was no extra clutter and the web interface is quite snappy.
If pressed to criticize something I would say the one issue I ran into was with regards to security. ZFSguru was unable to download security updates for the underlying FreeBSD base, HTTPS was not enabled when the operating system was installed and, by default, there is no password on the administrator account. Granted, we can create a password for the root account and manually enable HTTPS, but I felt these could have been part of the installation process. These aspects of ZFSguru bring me back to the idea that the project seems best suited to home and small office environments while projects such as FreeNAS are more geared toward bigger organizations.
All in all, I really liked ZFSguru. It takes complex pieces of technology (FreeBSD and ZFS) and makes them surprisingly straight forward to install, configure and use. With the streamlined interface, the ZFSguru project makes a lot of tasks surprisingly easy and I think this project will appeal to people who want to set up a backup solution at home with a minimum amount of fuss.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar) |
Fedora contributors share ideas at Flock, Debian releases first beta installer for "Jessie", Gentoo appoints new board members, openSUSE provides tutorials on system processes, Ubuntu Core update
 Flock is a conference for Fedora contributors where people can come together to share ideas and present new concepts. Fedora Magazine covers many of the highlights from this year's conference. Two key points are likely to be of use to system administrators and end users. One is a smaller Linux kernel along with support for the 64-bit ARM architecture. "During the Fedora.next process, the Fedora Cloud Working Group made requests of the kernel team to shrink down its size. There are a lot of optional components built into the kernel and many of these weren't actually needed in a cloud environment. So the kernel team went and broke out the available modules into a core set and a common set above that. This made the minimal installation set much smaller and reduced the space on the cloud images substantially."
Another talk concerned package and application management on Fedora. As Fedora Magazine reports: "PackageKit just isn't a real solution. A software installer that actually deals with users' needs is called for. This is a paraphrase of Richard Hughes first statement at his presentation on the GNOME Software and how to connect users to the applications they want." The post goes on to describe some changes coming to Fedora that will make managing packages and getting information on available applications easier for users of the popular distribution.
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 Fedora is not the only distribution working on an ARM 64-bit build. This post to the Debian ARM mailing list shows building packages for the 64-bit ARM architecture is underway in the Debian community. Not all packages in the Debian repository currently build on ARM64, but progress is being made and there is hope ARM64 will be an officially supported architecture in time for Debian's next release, code name "Jessie". "The ARM64 port is now open in the main archive and the initial (build-essential) bootstrap set of packages was uploaded on Friday. We expect official builds to come on-line this week and start churning through the rebuild of everything. Meanwhile the debian-ports archive is at 84.5% built, having been hovering tantalizingly close to the official qualification percentage of 85% for the last couple of weeks."
Speaking about "Jessie", the Debian developers are clearly entering the final stages of its development. Last week, Cyril Brulebois announced the availability of the first beta build of the Debian installer for the distribution's upcoming new release: "The Debian Installer team is pleased to announce the first beta release of the installer for Debian 8 'Jessie'. Important changes in this release of the installer: GNOME installation images have been fixed - they will now really install GNOME (instead of Xfce); a major parted release was merged lately, and many related components needed an update accordingly; a major release of syslinux also appeared, with incompatible changes; the default init system on Linux is now systemd." Those who would like to test the new installer and check out the current state of "Jessie" can get the "netinst" images from the Debian Installer page.
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 The Gentoo distribution holds regular elections for seats on their Board of Trustees. There were two open seats on the board for the 2014-2016 term and these seats have been filled without need for a vote. The Gentoo Monthly Newsletter explains, "The two open seats for the Gentoo Trustees for the 2014-2016 term will be: Alec Warner (antarus) [and] Roy Bamford (neddyseagoon). Since there were only two nominees for the two seats up for election, there was no official election. They were appointed uncontested." Congratulations to the two nominees and good luck!
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 Being able to control the programs which are running on our computers is a very important aspect of maintaining any operating system. Often times a program will misbehave or refuse to close or take up too many resources. When this happens it is good to know how to locate and handle the offending program. The openSUSE blog continues their tutorial series, this week talking about process management. The tutorial covers running programs, directing tasks to run in the background, finding misbehaving programs and terminating them.
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 Finally, some useful information for those readers who enjoy the Ubuntu distribution, but would prefer a variant that would allow more fine-grained customisation options. As this blog post by Dustin Kirkland reminds us, the popular distribution project does indeed produce a highly minimalist Ubuntu in just 63 MB when compressed. Formerly called JeOS (Just enough OS), it is now known under the name of Ubuntu Core: "JeOS has been here all along, in fact. You've been able to deploy a daily, minimal Ubuntu image, all day, every single day for most of the the last decade. Sure, it changed names to Ubuntu Core along the way, but it's still the same sleek little beloved ubuntu-minimal distribution. 'How minimal?, you ask. 63 MB compressed, to be precise. Did you get that? That's 63 MB, including a package management system, with one-line, apt-get access to over 30,000 freely available packages across the Ubuntu universe."
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
The appeal of rolling-releases
Curious-about-rolling-releases asks: Why is there such an interest in rolling-release distributions? Variants of Arch Linux and Debian "Testing" are cropping up everywhere and now openSUSE too. What do rolling-release distributions have to recommend them?
DistroWatch answers: With a traditional, fixed-release operating system the idea is that we install one release and the software which is included in our operating system stays pretty much the same for the duration of the product's life cycle. When a new version of a fixed-release operating system becomes available (six months or a year or a few years later) it is typically recommended that we wipe out the old version of the operating system and replace it with a fresh copy. This means there is some additional work involved in re-installing applications, restoring settings from our original install and so forth.
The fixed-release model has some nice features to recommend it. Our software should continue to work without any surprises or broken dependencies for the duration of the operating system's life. Typically, distributions providing fixed releases only provide security updates and minor fixes to released products and this usually makes for a stable operating system. People who run servers or people who are not familiar with Linux tend to like fixed-release operating systems as there is very little maintenance involved and rarely any unpleasant surprises. Plus, fixed-release systems are typically supported for three to ten years in the Linux community, depending on which distribution we are using. This means upgrades need happen only rarely.
A rolling-release model is quite different. The repositories of a rolling-release distribution are typically not frozen at a fixed point in time. Packages in a rolling-release distribution are regularly updated with new features as well as security fixes. This means we regularly have access to new versions of applications very shortly after they are created. People who like to try out the latest features and software changes tend to like rolling-release distributions as there is always something new in the software repositories. In theory rolling-releases have another advantage: a rolling-release distribution does not have an end-of-life, a point where they are no longer supported. With a rolling-release the distribution is constantly being updated so the software never goes out of date, never reaches a point in time where it is no longer being supported. The idea is we can install a rolling-release distribution once and continue to use it for the full life time of our computer's hardware, all the while benefiting from the latest versions of open source software.
Rolling-release distributions are appealing to a few groups of people. Distribution developers often like them because it means less work. The developers are not forced to juggle maintenance for older packages, plus security patches, plus new releases coming in for testing. The distribution developers can focus on one branch of their operating system and keep it up to date. With a rolling-release distribution there is no backporting bug fixes or features because the project's users are always running the latest software version.
People using a rolling-release distribution may appreciate it for a few reasons. Perhaps they are a developer who wants to use the latest technologies in their own software project. Others simply like to try out and test new technologies and a rolling-release distribution provides an endless supply of new software. Others like the idea of being able to install a distribution once without concerning themselves with fresh installations in the future.
Rolling releases do tend to have their downsides though. For instance, it is difficult for third-party developers to create software for rolling-releases as a rolling-release distribution is a moving target. It is difficult to target and support an operating system which is changing on a regular basis. This is, in part, why we see companies like Oracle, Valve and GOG support long term support releases and not rolling-release distributions. Users of rolling-release distributions also tend to face issues arising from broken software or dependency problems. A modern operating system contains thousands of packages and, when many of them are constantly changing, this can make for a less stable environment.
Now, whenever we discuss rolling-release distributions on this site and their potential stability issues come up there are people who comment, pointing out their installation of Arch Linux or PCLinuxOS has been running smoothly for years. I don't doubt their sincerity. However, while some people may have had success maintaining long running rolling-release installations, I receive a regular stream of e-mails from people who are dealing with broken rolling-release systems (usually Arch-based) who are looking for help. I get enough of these e-mails describing broken dependencies that I created a form letter to assist with all the replies. What I take away from this is, with a handful of exceptions aside, rolling-releases are statistically less stable than fixed releases.
What it really comes down to is a rolling-release distribution typically appeals to people who want to be on the leading edge of software development. If you want to regularly see new features and get a peek at features most people will need to waits months to experience, then a rolling-release is appealing. On the other hand, a fixed release is geared toward people who want their computers to work the same way tomorrow as they did yesterday. People who rely on their desktops and servers working in a consistent manner probably will not find what they are looking for in a rolling-release distribution.
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| Released Last Week |
Univention Corporate Server 3.2-3
Nico Gulden has announced the release of an updated build of Univention Corporate Server 3.2, a Debian-based server distribution with a web-based server management system: "We are pleased to announce the availability of UCS 3.2-3, the third point release of Univention Corporate Server (UCS). It includes all errata updates issued for UCS 3.2-0 and comprises the following highlights: the new module Active Directory Connection merges the domain administrated by UCS and an existing Active Directory; the UCS setup wizard has been completely overhauled and now guides users particularly comfortably through the domain configuration of UCS and detects; PHP 5.4.4 has been back-ported to UCS 3.2; the OpenLDAP replication has been improved significantly by tracking changes in the directory service with unique IDs; Linux kernel has been updated to version 3.10.11...." Read the brief release announcement and check out the detailed release notes for more information.
Zorin OS 9 "Lite", "Educational Lite"
Artyom Zorin has announced the release of two new editions of the Ubuntu-based Zorin OS 9 distribution, the i386-only "Lite" and "Educational Lite" variants: "We are pleased to announce the release of Zorin OS 9 Lite and Educational Lite. These releases are the latest evolutions of the Zorin OS Lite series of operating systems, designed specifically for Linux newcomers using old or low-powered hardware. This release is based on Lubuntu 14.04 and uses the LXDE desktop environment to provide one of the fastest and most feature-packed interfaces for low-spec machines. This new release includes newly updated software as well as new software inclusions for the best lightweight desktop experience. The Educational Lite edition adds educational software to the desktop, making it the ideal choice for students, teachers and schools with low-powered hardware. All Zorin OS 9 editions are Long Term Support (LTS) releases." Here is the brief release announcement.
Robolinux 7.6.1 "Xfce"
John Martinson has announced the release of a new edition of Robolinux (a Debian-based distribution designed for newcomers to Linux) featuring the Xfce desktop: "Robolinux is pleased to announce a brand new Xfce edition based on Debian stable. A much more advanced operating system with far greater productvity, but incredibly easy to use for Linux beginners. Plus expert tech support is free. Robolinux Xfce 7.6.1 is extremely optimized, using only 140 MB of RAM in full composite video. It is very stable and has been fully tested for months. It doesn't require a video driver to be installed when running in full composite graphics mode (which is the default). If you are a Windows user this new streamlined Linux OS will blow your mind because it's so fast, super easy to use and highly reliable. Best of all it runs your favorite Windows apps natively with its built in Stealth VM software." Visit the project's SourceForge page to read the release announcement.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- Debox GNU/Linux. Debox GNU/Linux is a Debian-based distribution featuring the Openbox window manager.
- livarp. livarp is a Debian-based distribution designed to run on low-resource computers.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 25 August 2014. To contact the authors please send email to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, suggestions and corrections: news, donations, distribution submissions, comments)
- Bruce Patterson (feedback and suggestions: podcast edition)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • JeOS (by Simon on 2014-08-18 09:21:43 GMT from New Zealand)
Thanks for the info re "Ubuntu Core". Never heard of it before.
2 • Rolling Releases (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-18 10:52:10 GMT from )
As a rolling-release user, I note that two of my three distributions, Mint LMDE and Solydx, have recently notified users that they will be dropping the semi-rolling release model in favor of following Debian stable with the release of Jesssie.
3 • Rolling Releases (by Dale Visser on 2014-08-18 11:58:50 GMT from United States)
As a happy Lubuntu LTS user on all my systems, nonetheless I have been wondering lately about trying out Manjaro, because I like what they're doing. Your article talked me down from the ledge. I am one of those that needs more certainty that what worked yesterday is still going to work today. Thank you for the frank discussion. :-)
4 • Rolling Releases (by Ariel on 2014-08-18 12:08:46 GMT from Argentina)
I think that rolling release model is the future of Linux Distributions, but there should keep variants of that model since while I like its concept of having desktop packages up to date, I'm not about the mad rolling method of Arch for example, I'm not about upgrading kernel all the time or any other core packages like xorg system, gcc, etc. That's why I still keep my Sabayon distro working perfectly since (acording to last output) Sep 2012 and in spite upgrades still works like a charm; jumping from LTS kernels only (when needed) but keeping desktop packages up to date. Thanks for another DW Monday of News.
5 • Rolling Releases (by Tom on 2014-08-18 12:59:05 GMT from Germany)
I think most people, especially when coming from Windows, are intrigued about rolling release distros because they want to get the latest and greatest of desktop applications and don't really care about the latest version of some obscure system library they don't understand (I don't either). This is what a lot of people drives to Arch, much to the chagrin of many Arch users.
So I think that the "semi-rolling" approach is a good compromise, and it's a pity to hear that LMDE and Solydkx won't be following that path any more.
With Ubuntu-based distros, PPAs sort of fill the gap - and admittedly, they actually manage to keep me in that camp.
6 • Rolling releases (by Jesse on 2014-08-18 13:45:07 GMT from Canada)
I think the rolling release approach works better in some places than others. For example, a web browser or text editor can usually be a rolling release product and that can benefit both users and developers. This is largely because updates should be small and incemental and a regression should not have a huge impact. Games are often ideal areas for a rolling release approach. Rolling releases tend to be less attractive when kernels and server software are involved because a regression can knock you off-line.
Some developers see the agile/rolling approach and want to apply it to everything, but it is important to match the proper production style to the software being developed.
7 • Web based configuration (by Pearson on 2014-08-18 13:45:59 GMT from United States)
As a user, I like the idea of web based configurations, like in ZFSguru. I worry, however, about the inherent security overhead. It seems that vulnerabilities are found weekly (maybe not that often, but I don' think it's far off) in web browsers and servers. While many of those vulnerabilities can be remediable by updates and "best practices" when configuring the network, it's still additional maintenance.
8 • RE: Jesse #6, Tom #5 - Rolling releases (by Pearson on 2014-08-18 13:53:20 GMT from United States)
Jesse wrote:
> it is important to match the proper production style to the software being developed.
I can't agree with this enough. There are a huge number of environments in which computers are used. There will be very few, if any, "one size fits all" solutions to satisfy every environment.
If the "rolling release" model were truly the panacea some claim, there wouldn't be a market for RHEL 6, which is quite outdated by many standards. And yes, I know of at least one instance where RHEL 5 was being used very recently.
I agree with Tom that a "semi-rolling release" could fill some gaps.
9 • Rolling release (by Toran Korshnah on 2014-08-18 14:02:08 GMT from Belgium)
A fixed release can be updated as well. I updated my Ubuntu from 13 to 14, with good results. No need for a rolling release, if you ask me.Rolling releases might be handy for those wishing the newest software immediatly.But if you can wait a little bit?
10 • Rolling vs. Fixed releases (by octathlon on 2014-08-18 14:19:04 GMT from United States)
The PPA approach of Ubuntu/Mint strikes a balance that works well for me. I have the stability of the fixed release while still being able to keep certain applications up to date with the latest.
11 • Rolling release (by CandyCrush on 2014-08-18 14:22:09 GMT from France)
When a Linux user says...This update broke my installation! = I have one updated app that was I use that is now misbehaving.
12 • Rolling releases (by rich52 on 2014-08-18 14:29:54 GMT from United States)
I suspect rolling releases serve two purposes i.e. keep up with hardware advancements and maintenance of older systems as software changes and evolves around this newer hardware. Its a tough call no matter which side of the fence your are on. Personally I'd like to see the OS shell of any distro stay the same for a while so that the software that runs in the shell catches up. But as it seems everything is tied together by the software and the software is continually changing and making improvements. Nothing is static. Rolling releases are probably best. Imagine how many new versions of Windows and Licenses one would need to purchase as this continues? Open source is the only way to go.
13 • Manjaro rolling release (by Darren on 2014-08-18 14:43:00 GMT from Canada)
With regards to Manjaro, as much as it is based on and is Arch compatible it has a much longer time frame from when Arch will release an update to when Manjaro has tested it and feels confident that it will be stable on their distro, sometimes weeks and longer. If you want real bleeding edge, will all the fun, toys and potential broken packages for a day or so, go Arch. If you want bleeding edge that has been tempered and tested a bit more before release, go Manjaro. I have used Manjaro, and really like the distro, but I am the type that wants the cool toys right away and can deal with a broken package every now and then so I went to Arch itself. Arch will typically have broken packages fixed very fast and in my experience there aren't that many of them, none that have made my system unusable. I am sure the same theory holds for Debian and their child distros. I had used Xubuntu for a while but having to add all the unofficial PPAs to get the new release of apps, desktop environments, etc and then having some crash your system was not fun. I found I couldn't rely on the PPA maintainers to fix the problems like I can with Arch. Think of it like in The Matrix, The blue pill would allow him to remain in the fabricated reality of the Matrix, therefore living the "illusion of ignorance" (Ubuntu), while the red pill would lead to his escape from the Matrix and into the real world, therefore living the "truth of reality". (Arch/Debian/Gentoo) Not really serious about that comment, but I find the analogy humourous. :)
14 • Rolling Release Distros (by Anamezon on 2014-08-18 14:52:18 GMT from Finland)
One advantage of rolling-release distros not mentioned directly until now comes out in a multi-boot setup - not having to fix again boot loaders and the personal config files in /home (which some distros modify during each re-install) is a blessing!!!
15 • Rolling (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-18 15:58:15 GMT from Nicaragua)
I have a number of PCs and was running Buntu based LTS OSs as I needed stability..though i wasn't really getting it across the board, and even at time after backing up and installing the new release i would have issues getting all my backed up stuff working right..when Manjaro appeared on the scene i installed openbox and have had trouble free use from it for 2yrs never had any upgrade issues no unstability so i replaced a few of my PCS with Manjaro and they have shown the same trouble free useage.
I thought i would try Vanilla Arch. and after many many hours of boring reading and getting it installed it seemed to have issues every time anything upgraded and total lack of friendly help in the forums drove me to abandon that project, If all the linux forums were as helpful im sure windows 8 would be more popular..!!
I have AntiX installed on an old machine which too I have never had any issues with that were show stoppers. I can also say PClinux OS was another rolling Release that was stable and trouble free.
I have had more issues using LTS type distros over the years than I have had with the rolling release models ...(I admit i don't tinker and customise much and generally use Openbox or WM as opposed to DEs....)
16 • Rolling (by Ista on 2014-08-18 17:21:03 GMT from United States)
In my experience "stable" is a euphemism for "old and busted". If you take a peak to the release notes for your favorite software you are likely to see a long list of fixed bugs. Why would you want to use old versions without those bug fixes?
Of course rolling releases can also be "new and busted". That was my experience with OpenSuse Tumbleweed back when it first started. Since switching to Archlinux about 3 years ago its been relatively smooth sailing. I had to re-install when my hard drive died, but breakage has been minor, and less that I used to get using ubuntu PPA's.
17 • Rolling releases (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-08-18 17:27:57 GMT from Ecuador)
@#2: Thanks for the heads up about SolydXK eventually dropping their officially supported rolling release pack updates. That's a bummer.
With SolydXK out of the running, the only two options I can see for an easy to install and maintain rolling release distro are Manjaro and openSUSE Factory. I currently use and enjoy Manjaro on all my systems. That being said, I would really like to see a mainstream distro that maintains a stable core OS with all of the userland programs in simple, self-contained packages, similiar to Mac OS X. That way I could use different versions of different packages if I have a stability problem. It would also help the developers to focus on core stability, without having to maintain an entire system of 20,000 packages that all have to be stable and working at any given moment in time.
18 • Rolling Distributions (by Bill Julian on 2014-08-18 17:58:06 GMT from United States)
I use Debian Stable with selected backports for applications and that has worked very well for me. Stable is as good as its name. LMDE also has worked very well and it has nice conveniences but it is not nearly so responsive. All in all I prefer Debian. Testing and Unstable can be interesting but when things absolutely must work I go to Stable.
19 • Old releases (by Jesse on 2014-08-18 18:36:45 GMT from Canada)
>> "If you take a peak to the release notes for your favorite software you are likely to see a long list of fixed bugs. Why would you want to use old versions without those bug fixes?"
Almost all distributions backport new fixes into older software packages. This is why fixed release distributions receive security updates every week, they are patching the old software with the new bug fixes provided by upstream. In other words, people running older versions of software still have the same bug fixes people running the latest version have.
20 • manjaro (by Reuben on 2014-08-18 18:36:48 GMT from United States)
Speaking of rolling releases, how often does Manjaro plan on updating the software in it's repositories?
Also, what's going on with FreeBSD and UEFI? It's supposed to be in 10.1. The first beta is in less than a month yet the STABLE snapshot doesn't include it.
21 • Antergros (by CED on 2014-08-18 18:50:06 GMT from United States)
I have been using Cinnamon and Gnome on Antegros for three months without a problem. Updates are issued regularly and my system never has a problem. I haven't booted into Ubuntu since. 90% Antergos, 10% Windows 7.
22 • Rolling (by schultzter on 2014-08-18 18:53:01 GMT from Canada)
I started with Slackware-current and now I'm using Arch. All my software (editors, browsers, libraries, etc.) are always up-to-date. If I ever have an issue it's almost always resolved by running an update. If there's a new feature I'm waiting for as soon as it comes out I've got it. I love rolling release.
23 • Use both. (by Garon on 2014-08-18 18:54:12 GMT from United States)
A LTS release will give you years of good service unless a person starts causing self inflected wounds. As I've said in the past I always keep a LTS version on my main machine and play with others on my spare machines. That includes rolling releases. I don't use any old and busted applications with my LTS distros Lol. Saying you have to use old software with a LTS release is a myth. I don't understand why people seem to have so much trouble with the distros they seem to try out or the ones they use. With all the options we have why in the world would someone want to reinstall or upgrade every 6 months or even every year. Of course if you are into helping with the development process that is a different matter. Rolling releases can even be stable and if that is your cup of tea then go for it. I imagine they can be fun to tinker with. That's why openSuse Factory will be so popular, for me anyway.
24 • What do you mean by rolling? (by fernbap on 2014-08-18 19:34:40 GMT from Portugal)
This is what i intend to do:
I'm burning the Lenny Beta 1 DVD atm, and intend to install it, including my desktop of choice.
Then, when Lenny officially comes out, i will enable the backports repo, in order to keep my apps updated.
This will give me about 2 years of a LTS release with updated apps.
Then, when the next Debian comes out, i will eventually move the repos to it, and perform a dist-upgrade.
There you have it. Is it a rolling release? no. Is it a point release? no.
Anyway, i don't foresee any need to totally reinstall anything while running a continuous LTS release.
This is probably exactly what LMDE intends to do. The best of both worlds.
25 • Manjaro updates (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-08-18 19:58:21 GMT from Ecuador)
@#20: They usually release an update pack for their Stable branch every 1 - 2 weeks. However, if you want even more frequent updates you can use their Testing or Unstable branches, the latter of which received daily updates. I prefer the Stable branch for my needs.
26 • rolling (by pjhalsli on 2014-08-18 19:59:19 GMT from Norway)
I just read what you're saying about rolling releases stability. Those mails you got is as you explained from those that run into problems. The rest of us - who don't have problems - don't write mails and complain now do we?! So I think of those that are using a rolling release model it's a few that are having problems while the majority of users have a smooth travel. After using Manjaro for about a year and a half I saw that newbies just updated without reading announcements first. And they got into problem. Those that took the time to read usually had a problemfree ride. I moved on to Arch some months ago and have not had one single problem since even the x-org update went smooth. People that come over to rolling have to understand that it's a different thing than what they're used to. I'm willing to bet that if you read the announcments before updates 98% will have a smooth ride. And if you don't........ well you can always write a mail and complain about the rolling realease model :)
27 • livarp is definitely worth a look (by Mark on 2014-08-18 20:03:33 GMT from United States)
I'm surprised it's only gaining "added to the waiting list" status just now. livarp, across multiple versions, has been around for several years. The same developer also maintains the (quite different from livarp) HandyLinux distro.
You may not decide to keep livarp as your "daily driver", but its inclusion of 12 selectable window managers sure makes livarp an interesting as a testdrive cndidate. Also, its default shell is zsh (I wondeer: other than GRML, are any other current Debian -derived distros shipping zsh as default shell?)
During the livarp live boot, instead of diving straight into a wm session, you're presented with a dmenu -powered utility wherein you choose desired wm for the session or you can click "edit config" which launches a multi-tabbed geany window containing various config files you might care to edit. That, I reckon, is a "pretty slick" approach.
28 • Arch (by linuxguy on 2014-08-18 20:23:09 GMT from United States)
the one thing that actively discourages me from using Arch is a lack of a friendly community. Just ask a question, and you'll see the negative replies intantly. yeah people should search look for the info they need in the wiki, but for many of the questions are asked often don't have an answer that exists in the wiki and actually calls for the question to be asked in the forum. Does the community care if the answer is not there, no.
sorry if I have to rant. I do see Arch having some potential, but the community needs to not be so hostile towards newcomers.
29 • Rolling, arch, etc. (by linuxista on 2014-08-18 21:58:31 GMT from United States)
I thought Jessie's answer on rolling vs. release to be quite balanced and well informed. The only part that puzzles me is his list of emails of rolling installs with broken dependencies. There was a point last spring when you had to to a downgrade of glamour-gl to complete the install and took all of 2 minutes googling to find the single command fix #: pacman -Suu. Other than that I've never had a dependency issue on Arch based. When I think of dependency issues I think Debian with anything other than stable, especially of course if you try to mix. One thing I suspect is that these are newbies who are installing only a base Arch system. I could certainly understand that. In fact, I've never even tried it because of chicken/egg wifi issues. I just install Manjaro, Bridge, Archbang, etc. Easy peasy. Either that or they're having trouble with cli package management? Strange.
@3 I thought Jessie's disclaimer on Arch-based stability to be overstated. You could always dual boot with Manjaro and keep your current install running for insurance. Then you'll find out for yourself.
The other Arch related posts @13 @16, @21, @22, @25, @26 seem quite accurate and informed and reflect my experience as well. Since I find Arch itself to be highly stable, the improved stability of Manjaro (which I also happily run) might be oversold. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but it's simply not an issue. I'll only add that just because it's rolling doesn't mean "more tinkering." More tinkering is when you install Pekwm, i3, spectrwm, and fluxbox and try to standardize the keyboard shortcuts among them! If you're doing Xfce or Gnome or KDE there's nothing special you have to do. They don't release a special "Gnome for Arch" that takes away all config GUIs and pops up insulting system messages. Though that last one doesn't sound like such a bad idea.
30 • JeOS 'Just enough OS' (by Somewhat Reticent on 2014-08-18 23:26:21 GMT from United States)
This is a generic term, isn't it? There are JeOS versions of SUSE, CEntOS, OpenSolaris, Ubuntu and Microsoft Windows Server Core ... as well as Virtual-Appliances like OpenELEC and CoreOS, right?
31 • @27 (by :wq on 2014-08-19 00:06:57 GMT from United States)
Actually, livarp was first submitted on 2012-02-13, and appeared in DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 444 (http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20120220#waiting). Then livarp was "sleeping" (https://web.archive.org/web/20140702091106/http://arpinux.org/livarp/), and my guess is that prompted its removal from the waiting list.
32 • Flock Conference (by Nick on 2014-08-19 00:23:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
The top priority of the Fedora contributors in the Flock Conference should be to sort out their HORRENDOUS & DANGEROUS INSTALLER. Grrr
33 • Maxthon for Linux (by Mikkh on 2014-08-19 01:08:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Only just found this today, so sorry if it's old news
Anyone who's used the Windows version will remember it as an IE shell with a pretty frock and a default interface that is a bit too busy and cluttered for most tastes. I was intrigued as to what the Linux version might look like and was hoping it wasn't just some lame WINE implementation masquerading as a Linux version.
It's not, and it's not really Maxthon either because it's based on Chromium, but made to look like Maxthon. It's Pepper Flash based like Google Chrome, so you're using the latest Flash without being tied down to Chrome.
Loads a lot quicker than Chrome and it was a straightforward install via Synaptic in PClinuxOS for me. Worth a look at if you're paranoid about having Google based software on your machine
34 • Rolling release humour (by cykodrone on 2014-08-19 02:47:24 GMT from Canada)
And all along I thought it meant a rolling distro is so great at doing everything for you, it can roll cone shaped happy tobacco flammable delivery systems too, lol.
All jokes aside, I can wait for new versions, I'll stick with my Debian Stable (bpo and dmo enabled but not pinned), thanks very much. When official Jessie gets released, I wait a little while before doing a fresh install, that way I'll avoid missed bugs, kinda like not buying a car in its debut model year. :D
35 • @28 Arch Linux (by Thomas Mueller on 2014-08-19 04:16:26 GMT from United States)
I see the point on hostile Arch community. I joined Arch emailing lists in May 2013, never got as far as negative replies because the moderator rejected my first (and last) post, a question on if and how Arch could be built from source as is done in NetBSD and FreeBSD. Moderator said I could have found the answer in the wiki within a minute, and I still haven't found it. So I became an infant mortality on those lists rather than be hopelessly tongue-tied.
NetBSD and FreeBSD current or stable is a rolling release, and Slackware-current (Linux), upgrading from binary packages, also becomes a rolling release.
36 • Rolling releases (by Microlinux on 2014-08-19 05:22:44 GMT from France)
I've been a user of Arch back in 2006, when the distro was relatively young. I tried to use it for my job, which consisted in networking a dozen public libraries. That lasted a few months, until I got bitten badly by an update. And if you so much as talk about the weather in the Arch forums, the developers treat you like they're all members of the Royal Meteorological Society. Now I only rely on Slackware, Debian, CentOS and Ubuntu LTS for my work.
37 • @ 28 • ArchRolling Release (by Saleem Khan on 2014-08-19 06:11:18 GMT from Pakistan)
True, Arch is one good distro but the community is one of the most hostile I have ever met , treat and expect you to be Arch smart like them knowing every damn command and clues exactly as they think they know it. But this hostile community did not stop me from using Arch linux and I think their hostility has a reason, they don`t want to spoon feed you , let you sit on your ass and expect others to fix your issues, they make you seek and fix your issues yourself rather than waiting/looking at others for help. Arch linux thought me many new things I never knew before , their wiki , documentation and forum are best not just for Arch linux but for linux in general and so just by going through these almost 99% issues are solved. For me there is nothing like Arch linux and will never be , either we have to live with arch hostile community and use arch or move to Ubuntus or Arch linux GUIs oriented forks and the later option did not attract me so I use Arch linux with minor odds about community but who cares about odds when evens are at best !
38 • SolydXK - @2 and 5 (by Hoos on 2014-08-19 06:37:04 GMT from Singapore)
Yes, they will lose their quarterly update packs when Jessie becomes stable, and they will focus on Jessie as Debian Stable thereafter, but you can always continue with the Debian Testing packages by changing your repository sources accordingly.
Since each UP accumulates so many packages in the course of 3 months that they are humongous downloads leading to increased risk of problems downloading and in the interaction/applying of so many updated packages, continuing on normal Debian Testing might not be that much more problematic.
As it is, even if you use the UP method currently, you would still need to read the update release notes on the forum, read up on fixes as people reported problems, etc. So there is no real saving of time between that and Debian Testing, where you would also need to read the forum announcements for potential bugs. Just read the Solyd subforums on Debian Testing, or maybe also check out forum announcements on other Debian distros with an active Testing branch sub-forum.
If you update your Solyd on Testing, say, every week, you'll probably have smaller update size to contend with than the huge UP. It might also limit the number of packages that might have issues, although that may not always be the case.
For me, I might stick with SolydX Jessie after the changeover, then decide to transition to Testing in the repos later. I read something about Jessie containing the changeover to/implementation of systemd so it might be better to let things settle first. We'll see. I have other Stable distros so I'm happy to try something different with my Solyd partition.
39 • Bad Arch, stay down! (by lucke on 2014-08-19 07:46:17 GMT from Poland)
Hombre-Guapo (#15) and linuxguy (#28), could you link me to posts showing unfriendliness of Arch's forums?
40 • @39 (by Microlinux on 2014-08-19 08:59:36 GMT from France)
Did you search the Arch forum?
:o)
41 • @35, Building from source (by rikn00 on 2014-08-19 09:06:26 GMT from Finland)
There is article on ABS in Arch Wiki, I don't know if you need that anymore but here it is: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Abs
42 • Bad Arch (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-19 09:41:51 GMT from )
@39 I will see if I can dig up mine. Short version: they had a test to join the forum which involved plugging some code at the command line and giving them the proper response. I repeatedly failed this test and couldn't join the forum and thus couldn't get help with my problem. I spent a week troubleshooting the test with a friend who also used Arch -- turned out the test only worked if you were using bash, and not the tcsh I was using. When I finally joined the forum, I posted that this test was 'broken' and excluded the very people who needed help the most. This post drew a lot of negative responses.
43 • zfsguru v. freeNAS (by greg on 2014-08-19 10:58:38 GMT from Slovenia)
security makes it seem like the guru is ment for LAN only. I mean as soon as you set it up online this could be a disaster. for small office/company to have it hacked it can often be even worse than larger corporation...
also I wonder about the ZFS - in review it is mentioned that resource usage is very low. I read the official documentation form FreeNAS and it says one needs min. 8GB ram for ZFS while 16GB is recommended. I kind of find this ridiculous amount for a small NAS server. most Synology "Home" NAS systems have less than 1GB ram anyway. so why would one need 16 GB only for backups?!
44 • Bad Arch (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-19 12:30:23 GMT from )
@39 -- Here's the link to the unfriendly posts:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=147631
45 • ZFS (by Jesse on 2014-08-19 13:14:06 GMT from Canada)
@43
I don't know why, but for some reason many people (including OS developers) have got it into their heads that ZFS requires a lot of memory. It does not and never has. I've been running ZFS for five years now and it runs passably well on a machine with 512MB of RAM. It runs beautifully on a server/NAS with 1GB of memory.
I wish developers would stop recommending 8GB of RAM or more for ZFS since it requires less than 256MB under normal operation. It scares away a lot of people who would otherwise benefit from this great technology.
46 • Good Arch! (by lucke on 2014-08-19 13:58:21 GMT from Poland)
I meant "against wishes", not "will", in my previous comment.
rufovillosum, if you had mentioned in that topic that you had spent one week fighting with it, perhaps they'd have looked at it differently. Well, this antibot protection is a bit problematic. But sadly, which isn't.
47 • Ugly Arch? (by lucke on 2014-08-19 13:37:23 GMT from Poland)
I have been using Arch and have been present on its forums for almost 10 years. I'm perhaps the second oldest (registration-wise) member actively posting. And I have found the comments about the hostility of the forums surprising. Which begs the question: why the difference in perception?
I often see mentions that the Arch community is great (even yesterday! https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1448244#p1448244), and it's partly because of this community that I've been using Arch and helping out on the forums. It at least seems to be pretty great technically (the Arch wiki is perhaps the most complete out there and I often see the wiki and the forums as first search results in Google, with personalization turned off), but people there don't tick me off and I have respect for the regulars. The forums are mostly technical, however, without offtopic discussions about blueberries.
In the olden days, without the wiki, one often had to create lengthy answering posts with instructions, nowadays it's often enough to link to the wiki. Sometimes people seem to get annoyed by that - they ask a question which is apparently covered in the wiki (without mentioning that they have read the appropriate article), they get linked to the appropriate article by people knowing the wiki well, they take umbrage. Sometimes people ask the simplest questions which can be found easily by googling, the mods' response might not be to their liking. Sometimes there are multiple topics about the same issue, because people didn't apparently bother to search the forum, mods get to merging and whatnot, someone might feel slighted. Sometimes people using other distros (usually Arch-based) post on Arch forums, their topics get closed, because Arch has a sound policy of not supporting other distros (with differrent packages and configs), they might not like that.
All in all, I don't see hostility in the forums. If you read the rules and follow them and if you do your own research before posting, you should get proper (and apparently quality) assistance. If a mod closes your topic, you can always ask for it to be reopened. And I don't see many closed topics. I see forums with a good signal-to-noise ratio.
I'd like to see what you people find hostile. Maybe the community does something obviously wrong without realizing (of course, one has to remember that a community is formed by many different people, with differring personalities, attitudes and social graces). Anything that goes against our will can be judged hostile.
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=113819 is a good topic to read, I guess.
@42 I don't quite see anything hostile or negative in that topic. I do see they went against your will ;-) Their responses might be construed as elitist, but they do elucidate their reasoning. And getting your topic moved to "topics going nowhere" might feel slighting, but "ineffective discussion" topics end up there, so as not to be indexed by search engines.
Well, the problem is that a sufficiently complex shell command that would work in all shells would be hard to find. If I got an error like that, I'd change to bash and try in it. The question could be changed to captcha, and then links users would feel left out ;-)
48 • Bad Arch (by frank on 2014-08-19 14:33:44 GMT from United States)
@42
I'm not sure what kind of replies you received from your "broken" test thread, but an acquaintance of mine once mentioned it since he thought it was "clever", which prompted me to take a look.
Not to let the cat out of the bag, but his conclusion, and I came to the same conclusion, was that it was "broken" by design. In theory, it ensures a certain level of technical competency within the community. Essentially, beginners need not apply; check the wiki, because the Arch basics are well-documented. If you can't do it, you don't belong there. Consider it your "final exam". This has been a part of their "ethos" for a long time.
To put it another way, it's like putting a basic math question on the registration page of a trigonometry board. As the logic goes, you don't want people asking about basic math on a trig board, do you? No, if they need help with basic math, they should either consult with the basic math wiki or jump on the basic math board. If they learn the basics, then they can "apply" for the trig board.
49 • @45 ZFS (by greg on 2014-08-19 14:34:48 GMT from Slovenia)
Well that is reassuring. I was thinking of getting a small server with 4GB ram (the HP Micro) and it seems that Freenas+ZFS should then handle it well.
50 • @45 ZFS (by frank on 2014-08-19 14:58:33 GMT from United States)
Certainly. I actually have a setup like that (HP Micro), but with nas4free. It only has roughly 3TB on a RAIDZ, but it works fine for our current usage patterns.
I wonder sometimes if they make that recommendation purely for the deduplication requirements, but if you look into that, most recommendations are always some sort of function of storage size, which in my case would likely end up meaning adding a SSD to the HP Micro, so not sure where they get those recommendation numbers.
51 • rude forums (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 15:18:53 GMT from United States)
Frankly, I've never noticed it. The occasional curt or sarcastic "google it" responses I've seen have almost always been well deserved. On the other hand I've never been directly on the receiving end of it as I rarely post my own Qs. I almost always find the answer just searching threads pre-existing threads. Which brings up the next point: there is an advantage to having "elitist" communities. As a general proposition I can find sharp fixes from skilled users without having to sift through poor qualilty posts and sometimes downright harebrained and destructive "solutions" if I search Arch or Gentoo threads. I'm not saying there aren't highly skilled users with other distros, just that the mix is somewhat more refined in the "so-called" intermediate or advanced distros.
52 • Rolling (by Smellyman on 2014-08-19 15:52:08 GMT from Taiwan)
I like rolling on Arch (and Manjaro) not only because of the updated software, but mostly for their unparalleled AMOUNT of software. Between the AUR and main repos, I have found everything I have ever needed. No messy PPA's needed.
When I try other distros I am always disappointed with the lack of software.
53 • Arch Attitude (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-19 18:28:05 GMT from Nicaragua)
The main problem with The Arch forum attitude is they discriminate against anyone who doesn't Read, understand technical terminology, Ask questions, or have the same ideas of communication as they do...
I hate to thinkHow many times have I read a piece of advice in a Wiki or manual. and can see no relevance to my issue. but on posting that issue someone has said oh yes i had problems with that and give you a clearer instruction.. well with Arch forums thats not an Option if you don't read it and understand your not worthy of using there distro..
English isn't my first Language and was brought up a certain way of having a discussion and how converse with starangers, inthe Arch forums you Must ask their way or you infringe their ettiqute.
People have different ways of learning reading alone is not always the best..specially when you hit problems not actually covered in the same way as you experience as they expect in the manual.
these quote sum up the attitude of the Arch forum and the elieist discrimitarory attitude
"jasonwryan wrote:
Arch is a small, relatively specialized community. There is no attempt to make it a popular, one-size-fits-all distro."
Don't want to be Popular, i.e we want to be elite
"asonwryan wrote:
Anyone else wanting help here can either read the Etiquette and make a conscious decision to bring something to the community, or learn to deal with the inevitable disappointment that will follow..."
sounds like its Policy to not help anyone but the people THEY want anyone else can go whistle dixie
If Arch don't want everyday people to try and be users of their distro why let it be promoted on DW why not have a request only policy so only a select few can ever get it.. after being refered by other experienced users...
here is a post showing how a guy posting what should be a easy to answer question on compiling gets treated.. because he has a different way of doing things .. then goes on to get insulted by a moderator
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=179635
the guy is obviosly foriegn and thought differently to the mod where his post should be.
shouldnt the first action be to in a friendly manner explain where his post should be, and simply ask for some more info..that would have helped the guy and not been abbrasive, bt Due to Arch policy thats not acceptable
54 • Rudeness (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 18:59:07 GMT from United States)
The comments to this thread (about Ubuntu forums) have some intelligent perspectives about the pros and cons of elitist vs. accepting attitudes in distro forums: http://www.rhyous.com/2010/03/10/debian-and-ubuntu-users-have-the-elitism-attitude-or-being-technical-is-no-excuse-for-being-rude/
While intentional rudeness and insults are not useful or appropriate, I have no problem with seeing moderators rebuff questions where the answer is readily available. If I were learning karate from someone with high-level skills, and the karate master was harsh and demanding with me, I would be happy because of the steep learning curve. If he were always tip-toeing around my hurt feelings and spoon-feeding me I might feel better, but we'd waste a lot of time and maybe I'd never gain independence. This is just how I see it. If the person has skills he or she is willing to impart, I don't care if they lack social skills or they're cranky because they've been up all night coding. I don't want to start a flame war. It's good that we have communities with different cultures.
55 • 53 • Arch Attitude (by mandog on 2014-08-19 19:22:18 GMT from Peru)
What exactly was wrong with the arch attitude, A undefined question was asked.
the forum asked for more details and got disrespect come on get the facts right.
If I were you I would go to Jasonwryan web site and find out how much he does care and contributes to Linux?
Or go to any other of the Arch contributors and find out how much they contribute.
56 • Arch Attitude (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-19 20:18:43 GMT from Nicaragua)
@55
You need to read again ..The Guy in question had what he thought was a question about programming moved without telling him and before he could post requested code
Q, Edit a source code is not programming issue?
So wath it is
answer
"A question that includes the output of the patch command or other meaningful error/logs belongs in that board: pointless handwaving about "it's not compiling!" belongs here or (more likely) in the dustbin.
what a good friendly attitude
he retorts
But all my problem about "it's not compiling" its linked with c syntax problem. Its a programming issue, and the best place to find someone to answer is logically in the programming section!
And i see that in programming section have a lot of topics with question like this, and appear that you dont see any problem, if you want to follow the rules, do it to everyone!
then a insulting reply
you aren't "discussing" anything. karol asked you in #2 to paste code and, instead of that, you are blathering on like an incontinent poodle about how your thread deserves to be in a board for technical issues.
obviously the Mod had decided he and only he is correct on where the post should be..so has to resort to petty name calling to keep the Arch attiude of unfriendliness rolling.
Maybe the Guy contributes a lot to Linux that should not give him the right to be down right rude and insulting to other people..if he has a personality problem that he can't cope with other peoples attitude he shouldn't be a moderator...if he spoke to most people like that in public life in a service environment he would be jobless very quick..and probably in need of dental treatment..
57 • ZFS; arch fora (by Somewhat Reticent on 2014-08-19 20:38:57 GMT from United States)
Wasn't ZFS originally for "Enterprise" critical systems? Does ZFS for Home mean SOHO?
Perhaps less-expensive uses inherently accept certain compromises - but then, should they be using (some subset of) OpenZFS?
Perhaps graduates may apply (to an arch forum), but for mentoring (Anter)go(s) elsewhere, like (for the self-teachable) the wiki, or 'manjaro, and get an education first? If so, should access involve an entrance exam?
There are other examples of an arch attitude in life - consider how often judges chastise unskilled or self-representing lawyers.
58 • Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 21:06:55 GMT from United States)
@48 ... that the Arch entrance exam is broken by design and ensures a certain level of competence, trigonometry, etc.
The "entrance exam" requires cutting and pasting the command they give you in the question into a terminal and copying the output back into the answer field. It's not a test. It's a geeky captcha. But, again, this whole issue of attitude is down to personal preferences.
59 • Arch forum entrance exam (by frank on 2014-08-19 21:36:10 GMT from United States)
I didn't say it was hard. It had been a while since I last looked at it, but I could have sworn it was missing a quote or something of the sort in the past. The question may have been revised from time to time since then. But based on the post I referenced, what you've asked for is clearly harder for some people than others. :)
60 • @56 • Arch Attitude (by mandog on 2014-08-19 21:42:01 GMT from Peru)
Read the forum rules on any forum
It will tell you do not argue with forum staff it can result in your post being deleted or you could get banned.
That is the long and short of it stick to the rules and there is not a problem argue with forum staff or forum members pay the price, to the majority that is common sense in any forum.
61 • @59 Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 22:15:42 GMT from United States)
This is the question: What is the output of "date -u +%V$(uname)|sha256sum|sed 's/\W//g'"? If you don't exclude the " " from the command when you cut and paste you don't get the output. It took me two tries because I just cut from date to the ? the first time. It seems if they wanted to it could be made completely mistake proof, but it also doesn't seem to qualify as intentionally broken, a riddle, a coders test, a barrier to entry, etc.
62 • @61 Arch forum entrance exam (by frank on 2014-08-19 22:44:56 GMT from United States)
I think there was some thought put into it. Fact is, you either need the tools (all the commands used in that command) or you need to know what the tools do. That's your barrier to entry right there, and like I said, it's not hard, but it is there. You're right, it is a geeky captcha, but there were other things under consideration when they made it.
Here's a good link on their quest to fighting spammers (and setting the bar): https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=104892
Their more recent endeavor: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=152460&p=1
63 • Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 23:25:23 GMT from United States)
Right you are. I guess I just got lucky, had dev-tools or whatever the bundle is installed by default, and my first idea of cutting and pasting worked out. The thread you posted is interesting since the posters sound like they're trying to solve a problem, strike a reasonable balance and don't come off like elitist jerks.
64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Gilbert Boisvert on 2014-08-20 01:34:52 GMT from )
I don't know what's wrong, but I tried three mirrors for downloading PCLinuxOS-64-KDE-fullmonty. None of them got past 30MB, and it tripped off K3B to burn the unfinished .iso.
I wanted some answers, so I went to the PCLinuxOS website's forum. Auto registration is disabled, and we must email Texstar. No reply yet.
Anyone else has had this experience? I did not try the other versions, so I can't vouch for their stability. I only wanted the 3.9GB 64-bit Fullmonty.
I find it odd that a new release whould perform like this. I also experienced on my high speed Internet connection, of expected download times of 24+ hours for a 3.9GB download. I did not feel too comfortable having to live with a bunch of snail servers for a whole 1-day+ of downloading. It seems to me that allowing high speed downloaders faster download bancwidth, would allow their server a better chance to serve more people, faster.
So I'm off to find another OS that will download faster, and will go all the way to completion.
Cheers!
65 • @64 - downloading PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Hoos on 2014-08-20 03:47:02 GMT from Singapore)
Last night, I downloaded the KDE and Mate versions without problems. The download speed was very good. Did not try the Fullmonty.
66 • arch linux (by hadrons123 on 2014-08-20 05:03:25 GMT from India)
Its not the community as whole who is averse to new users but mostly the mods who respectfully ask the user to move someplace else for support calling the forums are for more elite such as themselves.
Off-topics started by users and criticism gets the iron fist first.
67 • PcLinuxOs Download (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 05:35:15 GMT from United States)
If you torrent it it won't be corrupt.
https://torrentz.eu/e67c7268123fca0ab9e98a6e63d6040169848f36
68 • PcLinuxOs Torrent (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 05:37:21 GMT from United States)
This is a better link.
https://kickass.to/pclinuxos-kde-fullmonty-2014-08-t9460269.html
69 • Arch Forum Brew-ha-ha (by cykodrone on 2014-08-20 08:30:41 GMT from Canada)
*shaking head*
1) I don't run Arch but have landed in their wiki from a search engine to fix my problem(s) many times (even though I don't use Arch, their info lead to fixes), thanks for the thorough and informative documentation.
2) Arch doesn't pretend to be a n00b friendly distro, so if wannabes wander in to the lion's den and get their heads bit off, oh well.
3) I've experienced rude-tude in other distro forums, even so-called n00b friendly distro/forums, elitism does exist, and sometimes a-holes become admins (their sad little lives revolve around the little bit of power they have), it's a fact of life, get used to it.
4) I put up with ZERO carp from anybody, if I get banned standing my ground, so what, I don't need the distro's lame forum anyway.
5) I occasionally make financial donations to FOSS program developers and distros, if I get attacked by an over zealous admin or veteran user, they can forget a donation.
6) At some point I had to search RTFM because I saw it a lot (directed at others) but I had no clue what it meant, some people deserve it, on the flip side, search engine answers using the right terms/string has become an art, especially now that most search engines are ad revenue-centric, and some search results are just truly unbelievably stupid, it depends on what search words you use and in what order.
70 • Rolling on... (by Michael on 2014-08-20 09:41:03 GMT from Australia)
I have broken Arch twice in 8 years.
Both X related.
Once because of an ATI video driver once because of a change to the keyboard config.
SSH still worked and I could get a fix happening.
Without Arch I would know a hell of a lot less than I do, in theory and practice.
I consider myself a moderately better than average Arch user (never found a problem I couldn't solve myself) but in the world of Windows and Ubuntu users I am considered a Guru.
I am glad they don't know Allan.
71 • Arch vs Manjaro (by Peter on 2014-08-20 12:39:09 GMT from Spain)
To each, it's own...because even though sharing the same base, Arch and Manjaro are directed at different audiences. And this is immediatly visible from minute 1: the instalation...and even the LiveCD medias.
Am I capable of doing a basic net install and then adding KDE and configuring it all? My answer is: MUST I ??? Please, I truely respect Arch and it's invaluable wiki but at I can no longer spend hours tinkering...if I can boot and install a fully working "Marcharo" in 30 min, then so be it. Plus, they have easy mannered forums.
72 • @64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Rev_Don on 2014-08-20 14:56:18 GMT from United States)
I don't find it that odd at all considering it is a NEW release and their servers are probably getting swamped. I run into the same thing quite often with new releases, even the Canonical servers have issues the first couple of days of a new final release. That's why I normally use Torrents (as was suggested previously). It will allow for the fastest possible downloads (as long as the majority of users continue to seed), error correction, and will allow you to resume an incomplete download. Overall, it's the ONLY way one should download large ISO files like this.
73 • Arch v. Manjaro (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 14:56:26 GMT from United States)
I love Manjaro. It's a great distro no doubt about it. But if you install one of the Arch re-spins like Bridge there's not that much difference in tinkering time. I would still send a noob to Manjaro, though, and if my Arch install ever broke (5 years and counting) I probably would just switch to Manjaro, because it's slightly easier out of the box, you get a BFS kernel by default, you don't need to set up reflector for pacman, and a few other minor things. The only "downside" I see is about a 2 or 3 week delay in getting the newest updates. That's no problem at all.
74 • @64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 Pt 2 (by Rev_Don on 2014-08-20 15:22:15 GMT from United States)
Just finished downloading the 64bit KDE Full Monty at 4+ MB/s via torrent taking about 12 minutes to fully download. It maxed out my new connection so I don't know how fast it could have downloaded.
75 • Keep rolling (by Conni on 2014-08-20 17:33:58 GMT from Germany)
Started with Rolling Release in February with Linux Mint Debian (LMDE). There were no stability issues, I survived two Update Packs. In June I had performance problems with LMDE and Lubuntu in parallel, probably due to the older kernel in these Debian-based distros. Slowly I migrated all my computers to Antergos then. No problems so far on three computers.
76 • Why is there such an interest in rolling-release distributions? (by ddalley on 2014-08-21 02:01:25 GMT from Canada)
Because we are fed up trying to chase the latest upgrade every few months. There is a process that avoids it, so use it. Rolling releases are part of it, but there are other ways. Linux Mint has one that is a reasonable compromise. There may be more. I will support htem more as time goes on because time is not on my side.
77 • Cool! (by Brüno on 2014-08-22 16:32:44 GMT from Sweden)
Very niiice! Waiting for the next relese with upgrade options and more security stuff "was" a big fan of BSD a few years ago (servers). Yes linux distros is for sure ok and many times easyer to manage with diff web based CP or to get the web CP up and running my main reason to switch to debian on most of my servers where cuz of this.
Time to test install ZFSguru now :)
78 • Migrate SAP from UNIX to LINUX! (by Migrate SAP from UNIX to LINUX on 2014-08-22 17:23:29 GMT from Sweden)
This is awsome just what i been looking for secure as FreeBSD easy as cpanel :)
I did a test-setup @ work lab (play room :)) works great with opteron dual quad 3.2ghz
64GB mem
2x EonStore 16x2TB 7200rpm RAID 10 (4 as hotspare) my EONś got 2gb cache built in.
6x4gb 7200 rpm raidZ (3x as hotspare)
2x32gb intel SSD os/swap2 raid 1
4x OCZ RevoDrive 3 120GB PCI-E raid 0 (cacheing swap 1 snapshots etc etc)
We use SAP ATM but looking to start use FreeNAS at production for our backups been running over 10 months old HP SCSI servers total 8x servers mirror-mirror DL385 32gb ram 4x storageworks 14x300gb 15K.
4x 32GB SSD for cache etc RAID 0
plus 6x4TB per server RAID 60
Just about 6TB storage for backups on lots of disks at two locations yes we still use tapes and weekley disk swaps very paranoid backup solution for a smal corp with importent data and smal budget (solar/wind aka eco power and no need for AC or HEAT)
79 • Linux blues (by anon on 2014-08-23 02:18:24 GMT from Norway)
I have been using Arch for going on seven years and I am not planning to quit. The people complaining about the behaviour of Arch Linux forum mods & regulars, however, are absolutely correct! It is simply horribly uncouth. Not because they are elitist per se, if you ask me, but because they apparently missed a civilised upbringing and politeness. Now, like attracts like and that's that.
I have had very few problems with Arch over the years, and none that haven't been fixed within a day or two. What I see as much more troubling is that Linux in general is a day late and a dollar short when it comes to hardware compatibility. My latest experience is a 15 months old Radeon card which is still not workably supported by either the open-source driver or X. So much for the 'enthusiastic' Linux open source developer crowd.
80 • Arch (by CED on 2014-08-23 21:14:02 GMT from United States)
@79 I agree with you about Arch Forums and the attitude. Chakraos & Opensuse are the same way. I think they all have an elitist vibe which is unfortunate.
I do like Antergos as the forums are welcoming and friendly. They are eager to help. They want you to stay and ask questions, and learn! What a concept...
The updates are regular and solid. It is an easier version of Arch without the repugnant smugness.
81 • Rough forums (by linuxista on 2014-08-23 22:42:24 GMT from United States)
As an American I've never noticed the smugness in the Arch forums, but I've never posted questions there myself, just dipped in to get what I needed. But I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to our Norwegian comrade. I had a Norwegian friend living in the U.S. who was amazed that all the stores and restaurants here played music. He said that in Norway they wouldn't dare. Really? I said, because the customers would complain? No, he said, they would never dare! No offense meant. I think it's endearing.
Number of Comments: 81
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