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1 • JeOS (by Simon on 2014-08-18 09:21:43 GMT from New Zealand) |
Thanks for the info re "Ubuntu Core". Never heard of it before.
2 • Rolling Releases (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-18 10:52:10 GMT from )
As a rolling-release user, I note that two of my three distributions, Mint LMDE and Solydx, have recently notified users that they will be dropping the semi-rolling release model in favor of following Debian stable with the release of Jesssie.
3 • Rolling Releases (by Dale Visser on 2014-08-18 11:58:50 GMT from United States)
As a happy Lubuntu LTS user on all my systems, nonetheless I have been wondering lately about trying out Manjaro, because I like what they're doing. Your article talked me down from the ledge. I am one of those that needs more certainty that what worked yesterday is still going to work today. Thank you for the frank discussion. :-)
4 • Rolling Releases (by Ariel on 2014-08-18 12:08:46 GMT from Argentina)
I think that rolling release model is the future of Linux Distributions, but there should keep variants of that model since while I like its concept of having desktop packages up to date, I'm not about the mad rolling method of Arch for example, I'm not about upgrading kernel all the time or any other core packages like xorg system, gcc, etc. That's why I still keep my Sabayon distro working perfectly since (acording to last output) Sep 2012 and in spite upgrades still works like a charm; jumping from LTS kernels only (when needed) but keeping desktop packages up to date. Thanks for another DW Monday of News.
5 • Rolling Releases (by Tom on 2014-08-18 12:59:05 GMT from Germany)
I think most people, especially when coming from Windows, are intrigued about rolling release distros because they want to get the latest and greatest of desktop applications and don't really care about the latest version of some obscure system library they don't understand (I don't either). This is what a lot of people drives to Arch, much to the chagrin of many Arch users.
So I think that the "semi-rolling" approach is a good compromise, and it's a pity to hear that LMDE and Solydkx won't be following that path any more.
With Ubuntu-based distros, PPAs sort of fill the gap - and admittedly, they actually manage to keep me in that camp.
6 • Rolling releases (by Jesse on 2014-08-18 13:45:07 GMT from Canada)
I think the rolling release approach works better in some places than others. For example, a web browser or text editor can usually be a rolling release product and that can benefit both users and developers. This is largely because updates should be small and incemental and a regression should not have a huge impact. Games are often ideal areas for a rolling release approach. Rolling releases tend to be less attractive when kernels and server software are involved because a regression can knock you off-line.
Some developers see the agile/rolling approach and want to apply it to everything, but it is important to match the proper production style to the software being developed.
7 • Web based configuration (by Pearson on 2014-08-18 13:45:59 GMT from United States)
As a user, I like the idea of web based configurations, like in ZFSguru. I worry, however, about the inherent security overhead. It seems that vulnerabilities are found weekly (maybe not that often, but I don' think it's far off) in web browsers and servers. While many of those vulnerabilities can be remediable by updates and "best practices" when configuring the network, it's still additional maintenance.
8 • RE: Jesse #6, Tom #5 - Rolling releases (by Pearson on 2014-08-18 13:53:20 GMT from United States)
> it is important to match the proper production style to the software being developed.
I can't agree with this enough. There are a huge number of environments in which computers are used. There will be very few, if any, "one size fits all" solutions to satisfy every environment.
If the "rolling release" model were truly the panacea some claim, there wouldn't be a market for RHEL 6, which is quite outdated by many standards. And yes, I know of at least one instance where RHEL 5 was being used very recently.
I agree with Tom that a "semi-rolling release" could fill some gaps.
9 • Rolling release (by Toran Korshnah on 2014-08-18 14:02:08 GMT from Belgium)
A fixed release can be updated as well. I updated my Ubuntu from 13 to 14, with good results. No need for a rolling release, if you ask me.Rolling releases might be handy for those wishing the newest software immediatly.But if you can wait a little bit?
10 • Rolling vs. Fixed releases (by octathlon on 2014-08-18 14:19:04 GMT from United States)
The PPA approach of Ubuntu/Mint strikes a balance that works well for me. I have the stability of the fixed release while still being able to keep certain applications up to date with the latest.
11 • Rolling release (by CandyCrush on 2014-08-18 14:22:09 GMT from France)
When a Linux user says...This update broke my installation! = I have one updated app that was I use that is now misbehaving.
12 • Rolling releases (by rich52 on 2014-08-18 14:29:54 GMT from United States)
I suspect rolling releases serve two purposes i.e. keep up with hardware advancements and maintenance of older systems as software changes and evolves around this newer hardware. Its a tough call no matter which side of the fence your are on. Personally I'd like to see the OS shell of any distro stay the same for a while so that the software that runs in the shell catches up. But as it seems everything is tied together by the software and the software is continually changing and making improvements. Nothing is static. Rolling releases are probably best. Imagine how many new versions of Windows and Licenses one would need to purchase as this continues? Open source is the only way to go.
13 • Manjaro rolling release (by Darren on 2014-08-18 14:43:00 GMT from Canada)
With regards to Manjaro, as much as it is based on and is Arch compatible it has a much longer time frame from when Arch will release an update to when Manjaro has tested it and feels confident that it will be stable on their distro, sometimes weeks and longer. If you want real bleeding edge, will all the fun, toys and potential broken packages for a day or so, go Arch. If you want bleeding edge that has been tempered and tested a bit more before release, go Manjaro. I have used Manjaro, and really like the distro, but I am the type that wants the cool toys right away and can deal with a broken package every now and then so I went to Arch itself. Arch will typically have broken packages fixed very fast and in my experience there aren't that many of them, none that have made my system unusable. I am sure the same theory holds for Debian and their child distros. I had used Xubuntu for a while but having to add all the unofficial PPAs to get the new release of apps, desktop environments, etc and then having some crash your system was not fun. I found I couldn't rely on the PPA maintainers to fix the problems like I can with Arch. Think of it like in The Matrix, The blue pill would allow him to remain in the fabricated reality of the Matrix, therefore living the "illusion of ignorance" (Ubuntu), while the red pill would lead to his escape from the Matrix and into the real world, therefore living the "truth of reality". (Arch/Debian/Gentoo) Not really serious about that comment, but I find the analogy humourous. :)
14 • Rolling Release Distros (by Anamezon on 2014-08-18 14:52:18 GMT from Finland)
One advantage of rolling-release distros not mentioned directly until now comes out in a multi-boot setup - not having to fix again boot loaders and the personal config files in /home (which some distros modify during each re-install) is a blessing!!!
15 • Rolling (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-18 15:58:15 GMT from Nicaragua)
I have a number of PCs and was running Buntu based LTS OSs as I needed stability..though i wasn't really getting it across the board, and even at time after backing up and installing the new release i would have issues getting all my backed up stuff working right..when Manjaro appeared on the scene i installed openbox and have had trouble free use from it for 2yrs never had any upgrade issues no unstability so i replaced a few of my PCS with Manjaro and they have shown the same trouble free useage.
I thought i would try Vanilla Arch. and after many many hours of boring reading and getting it installed it seemed to have issues every time anything upgraded and total lack of friendly help in the forums drove me to abandon that project, If all the linux forums were as helpful im sure windows 8 would be more popular..!!
I have AntiX installed on an old machine which too I have never had any issues with that were show stoppers. I can also say PClinux OS was another rolling Release that was stable and trouble free.
I have had more issues using LTS type distros over the years than I have had with the rolling release models ...(I admit i don't tinker and customise much and generally use Openbox or WM as opposed to DEs....)
16 • Rolling (by Ista on 2014-08-18 17:21:03 GMT from United States)
In my experience "stable" is a euphemism for "old and busted". If you take a peak to the release notes for your favorite software you are likely to see a long list of fixed bugs. Why would you want to use old versions without those bug fixes?
Of course rolling releases can also be "new and busted". That was my experience with OpenSuse Tumbleweed back when it first started. Since switching to Archlinux about 3 years ago its been relatively smooth sailing. I had to re-install when my hard drive died, but breakage has been minor, and less that I used to get using ubuntu PPA's.
17 • Rolling releases (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-08-18 17:27:57 GMT from Ecuador)
@#2: Thanks for the heads up about SolydXK eventually dropping their officially supported rolling release pack updates. That's a bummer.
With SolydXK out of the running, the only two options I can see for an easy to install and maintain rolling release distro are Manjaro and openSUSE Factory. I currently use and enjoy Manjaro on all my systems. That being said, I would really like to see a mainstream distro that maintains a stable core OS with all of the userland programs in simple, self-contained packages, similiar to Mac OS X. That way I could use different versions of different packages if I have a stability problem. It would also help the developers to focus on core stability, without having to maintain an entire system of 20,000 packages that all have to be stable and working at any given moment in time.
18 • Rolling Distributions (by Bill Julian on 2014-08-18 17:58:06 GMT from United States)
I use Debian Stable with selected backports for applications and that has worked very well for me. Stable is as good as its name. LMDE also has worked very well and it has nice conveniences but it is not nearly so responsive. All in all I prefer Debian. Testing and Unstable can be interesting but when things absolutely must work I go to Stable.
19 • Old releases (by Jesse on 2014-08-18 18:36:45 GMT from Canada)
>> "If you take a peak to the release notes for your favorite software you are likely to see a long list of fixed bugs. Why would you want to use old versions without those bug fixes?"
Almost all distributions backport new fixes into older software packages. This is why fixed release distributions receive security updates every week, they are patching the old software with the new bug fixes provided by upstream. In other words, people running older versions of software still have the same bug fixes people running the latest version have.
20 • manjaro (by Reuben on 2014-08-18 18:36:48 GMT from United States)
Speaking of rolling releases, how often does Manjaro plan on updating the software in it's repositories?
Also, what's going on with FreeBSD and UEFI? It's supposed to be in 10.1. The first beta is in less than a month yet the STABLE snapshot doesn't include it.
21 • Antergros (by CED on 2014-08-18 18:50:06 GMT from United States)
I have been using Cinnamon and Gnome on Antegros for three months without a problem. Updates are issued regularly and my system never has a problem. I haven't booted into Ubuntu since. 90% Antergos, 10% Windows 7.
22 • Rolling (by schultzter on 2014-08-18 18:53:01 GMT from Canada)
I started with Slackware-current and now I'm using Arch. All my software (editors, browsers, libraries, etc.) are always up-to-date. If I ever have an issue it's almost always resolved by running an update. If there's a new feature I'm waiting for as soon as it comes out I've got it. I love rolling release.
23 • Use both. (by Garon on 2014-08-18 18:54:12 GMT from United States)
A LTS release will give you years of good service unless a person starts causing self inflected wounds. As I've said in the past I always keep a LTS version on my main machine and play with others on my spare machines. That includes rolling releases. I don't use any old and busted applications with my LTS distros Lol. Saying you have to use old software with a LTS release is a myth. I don't understand why people seem to have so much trouble with the distros they seem to try out or the ones they use. With all the options we have why in the world would someone want to reinstall or upgrade every 6 months or even every year. Of course if you are into helping with the development process that is a different matter. Rolling releases can even be stable and if that is your cup of tea then go for it. I imagine they can be fun to tinker with. That's why openSuse Factory will be so popular, for me anyway.
24 • What do you mean by rolling? (by fernbap on 2014-08-18 19:34:40 GMT from Portugal)
This is what i intend to do:
I'm burning the Lenny Beta 1 DVD atm, and intend to install it, including my desktop of choice.
Then, when Lenny officially comes out, i will enable the backports repo, in order to keep my apps updated.
This will give me about 2 years of a LTS release with updated apps.
Then, when the next Debian comes out, i will eventually move the repos to it, and perform a dist-upgrade.
There you have it. Is it a rolling release? no. Is it a point release? no.
Anyway, i don't foresee any need to totally reinstall anything while running a continuous LTS release.
This is probably exactly what LMDE intends to do. The best of both worlds.
25 • Manjaro updates (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2014-08-18 19:58:21 GMT from Ecuador)
@#20: They usually release an update pack for their Stable branch every 1 - 2 weeks. However, if you want even more frequent updates you can use their Testing or Unstable branches, the latter of which received daily updates. I prefer the Stable branch for my needs.
26 • rolling (by pjhalsli on 2014-08-18 19:59:19 GMT from Norway)
I just read what you're saying about rolling releases stability. Those mails you got is as you explained from those that run into problems. The rest of us - who don't have problems - don't write mails and complain now do we?! So I think of those that are using a rolling release model it's a few that are having problems while the majority of users have a smooth travel. After using Manjaro for about a year and a half I saw that newbies just updated without reading announcements first. And they got into problem. Those that took the time to read usually had a problemfree ride. I moved on to Arch some months ago and have not had one single problem since even the x-org update went smooth. People that come over to rolling have to understand that it's a different thing than what they're used to. I'm willing to bet that if you read the announcments before updates 98% will have a smooth ride. And if you don't........ well you can always write a mail and complain about the rolling realease model :)
27 • livarp is definitely worth a look (by Mark on 2014-08-18 20:03:33 GMT from United States)
I'm surprised it's only gaining "added to the waiting list" status just now. livarp, across multiple versions, has been around for several years. The same developer also maintains the (quite different from livarp) HandyLinux distro.
You may not decide to keep livarp as your "daily driver", but its inclusion of 12 selectable window managers sure makes livarp an interesting as a testdrive cndidate. Also, its default shell is zsh (I wondeer: other than GRML, are any other current Debian -derived distros shipping zsh as default shell?)
During the livarp live boot, instead of diving straight into a wm session, you're presented with a dmenu -powered utility wherein you choose desired wm for the session or you can click "edit config" which launches a multi-tabbed geany window containing various config files you might care to edit. That, I reckon, is a "pretty slick" approach.
28 • Arch (by linuxguy on 2014-08-18 20:23:09 GMT from United States)
the one thing that actively discourages me from using Arch is a lack of a friendly community. Just ask a question, and you'll see the negative replies intantly. yeah people should search look for the info they need in the wiki, but for many of the questions are asked often don't have an answer that exists in the wiki and actually calls for the question to be asked in the forum. Does the community care if the answer is not there, no.
sorry if I have to rant. I do see Arch having some potential, but the community needs to not be so hostile towards newcomers.
29 • Rolling, arch, etc. (by linuxista on 2014-08-18 21:58:31 GMT from United States)
I thought Jessie's answer on rolling vs. release to be quite balanced and well informed. The only part that puzzles me is his list of emails of rolling installs with broken dependencies. There was a point last spring when you had to to a downgrade of glamour-gl to complete the install and took all of 2 minutes googling to find the single command fix #: pacman -Suu. Other than that I've never had a dependency issue on Arch based. When I think of dependency issues I think Debian with anything other than stable, especially of course if you try to mix. One thing I suspect is that these are newbies who are installing only a base Arch system. I could certainly understand that. In fact, I've never even tried it because of chicken/egg wifi issues. I just install Manjaro, Bridge, Archbang, etc. Easy peasy. Either that or they're having trouble with cli package management? Strange.
@3 I thought Jessie's disclaimer on Arch-based stability to be overstated. You could always dual boot with Manjaro and keep your current install running for insurance. Then you'll find out for yourself.
The other Arch related posts @13 @16, @21, @22, @25, @26 seem quite accurate and informed and reflect my experience as well. Since I find Arch itself to be highly stable, the improved stability of Manjaro (which I also happily run) might be oversold. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but it's simply not an issue. I'll only add that just because it's rolling doesn't mean "more tinkering." More tinkering is when you install Pekwm, i3, spectrwm, and fluxbox and try to standardize the keyboard shortcuts among them! If you're doing Xfce or Gnome or KDE there's nothing special you have to do. They don't release a special "Gnome for Arch" that takes away all config GUIs and pops up insulting system messages. Though that last one doesn't sound like such a bad idea.
30 • JeOS 'Just enough OS' (by Somewhat Reticent on 2014-08-18 23:26:21 GMT from United States)
This is a generic term, isn't it? There are JeOS versions of SUSE, CEntOS, OpenSolaris, Ubuntu and Microsoft Windows Server Core ... as well as Virtual-Appliances like OpenELEC and CoreOS, right?
31 • @27 (by :wq on 2014-08-19 00:06:57 GMT from United States)
Actually, livarp was first submitted on 2012-02-13, and appeared in DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 444 (http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20120220#waiting). Then livarp was "sleeping" (https://web.archive.org/web/20140702091106/http://arpinux.org/livarp/), and my guess is that prompted its removal from the waiting list.
32 • Flock Conference (by Nick on 2014-08-19 00:23:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
The top priority of the Fedora contributors in the Flock Conference should be to sort out their HORRENDOUS & DANGEROUS INSTALLER. Grrr
33 • Maxthon for Linux (by Mikkh on 2014-08-19 01:08:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Only just found this today, so sorry if it's old news
Anyone who's used the Windows version will remember it as an IE shell with a pretty frock and a default interface that is a bit too busy and cluttered for most tastes. I was intrigued as to what the Linux version might look like and was hoping it wasn't just some lame WINE implementation masquerading as a Linux version.
It's not, and it's not really Maxthon either because it's based on Chromium, but made to look like Maxthon. It's Pepper Flash based like Google Chrome, so you're using the latest Flash without being tied down to Chrome.
Loads a lot quicker than Chrome and it was a straightforward install via Synaptic in PClinuxOS for me. Worth a look at if you're paranoid about having Google based software on your machine
34 • Rolling release humour (by cykodrone on 2014-08-19 02:47:24 GMT from Canada)
And all along I thought it meant a rolling distro is so great at doing everything for you, it can roll cone shaped happy tobacco flammable delivery systems too, lol.
All jokes aside, I can wait for new versions, I'll stick with my Debian Stable (bpo and dmo enabled but not pinned), thanks very much. When official Jessie gets released, I wait a little while before doing a fresh install, that way I'll avoid missed bugs, kinda like not buying a car in its debut model year. :D
35 • @28 Arch Linux (by Thomas Mueller on 2014-08-19 04:16:26 GMT from United States)
I see the point on hostile Arch community. I joined Arch emailing lists in May 2013, never got as far as negative replies because the moderator rejected my first (and last) post, a question on if and how Arch could be built from source as is done in NetBSD and FreeBSD. Moderator said I could have found the answer in the wiki within a minute, and I still haven't found it. So I became an infant mortality on those lists rather than be hopelessly tongue-tied.
NetBSD and FreeBSD current or stable is a rolling release, and Slackware-current (Linux), upgrading from binary packages, also becomes a rolling release.
36 • Rolling releases (by Microlinux on 2014-08-19 05:22:44 GMT from France)
I've been a user of Arch back in 2006, when the distro was relatively young. I tried to use it for my job, which consisted in networking a dozen public libraries. That lasted a few months, until I got bitten badly by an update. And if you so much as talk about the weather in the Arch forums, the developers treat you like they're all members of the Royal Meteorological Society. Now I only rely on Slackware, Debian, CentOS and Ubuntu LTS for my work.
37 • @ 28 • ArchRolling Release (by Saleem Khan on 2014-08-19 06:11:18 GMT from Pakistan)
True, Arch is one good distro but the community is one of the most hostile I have ever met , treat and expect you to be Arch smart like them knowing every damn command and clues exactly as they think they know it. But this hostile community did not stop me from using Arch linux and I think their hostility has a reason, they don`t want to spoon feed you , let you sit on your ass and expect others to fix your issues, they make you seek and fix your issues yourself rather than waiting/looking at others for help. Arch linux thought me many new things I never knew before , their wiki , documentation and forum are best not just for Arch linux but for linux in general and so just by going through these almost 99% issues are solved. For me there is nothing like Arch linux and will never be , either we have to live with arch hostile community and use arch or move to Ubuntus or Arch linux GUIs oriented forks and the later option did not attract me so I use Arch linux with minor odds about community but who cares about odds when evens are at best !
38 • SolydXK - @2 and 5 (by Hoos on 2014-08-19 06:37:04 GMT from Singapore)
Yes, they will lose their quarterly update packs when Jessie becomes stable, and they will focus on Jessie as Debian Stable thereafter, but you can always continue with the Debian Testing packages by changing your repository sources accordingly.
Since each UP accumulates so many packages in the course of 3 months that they are humongous downloads leading to increased risk of problems downloading and in the interaction/applying of so many updated packages, continuing on normal Debian Testing might not be that much more problematic.
As it is, even if you use the UP method currently, you would still need to read the update release notes on the forum, read up on fixes as people reported problems, etc. So there is no real saving of time between that and Debian Testing, where you would also need to read the forum announcements for potential bugs. Just read the Solyd subforums on Debian Testing, or maybe also check out forum announcements on other Debian distros with an active Testing branch sub-forum.
If you update your Solyd on Testing, say, every week, you'll probably have smaller update size to contend with than the huge UP. It might also limit the number of packages that might have issues, although that may not always be the case.
For me, I might stick with SolydX Jessie after the changeover, then decide to transition to Testing in the repos later. I read something about Jessie containing the changeover to/implementation of systemd so it might be better to let things settle first. We'll see. I have other Stable distros so I'm happy to try something different with my Solyd partition.
39 • Bad Arch, stay down! (by lucke on 2014-08-19 07:46:17 GMT from Poland)
Hombre-Guapo (#15) and linuxguy (#28), could you link me to posts showing unfriendliness of Arch's forums?
40 • @39 (by Microlinux on 2014-08-19 08:59:36 GMT from France)
Did you search the Arch forum?
41 • @35, Building from source (by rikn00 on 2014-08-19 09:06:26 GMT from Finland)
There is article on ABS in Arch Wiki, I don't know if you need that anymore but here it is: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Abs
42 • Bad Arch (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-19 09:41:51 GMT from )
@39 I will see if I can dig up mine. Short version: they had a test to join the forum which involved plugging some code at the command line and giving them the proper response. I repeatedly failed this test and couldn't join the forum and thus couldn't get help with my problem. I spent a week troubleshooting the test with a friend who also used Arch -- turned out the test only worked if you were using bash, and not the tcsh I was using. When I finally joined the forum, I posted that this test was 'broken' and excluded the very people who needed help the most. This post drew a lot of negative responses.
43 • zfsguru v. freeNAS (by greg on 2014-08-19 10:58:38 GMT from Slovenia)
security makes it seem like the guru is ment for LAN only. I mean as soon as you set it up online this could be a disaster. for small office/company to have it hacked it can often be even worse than larger corporation...
also I wonder about the ZFS - in review it is mentioned that resource usage is very low. I read the official documentation form FreeNAS and it says one needs min. 8GB ram for ZFS while 16GB is recommended. I kind of find this ridiculous amount for a small NAS server. most Synology "Home" NAS systems have less than 1GB ram anyway. so why would one need 16 GB only for backups?!
44 • Bad Arch (by rufovillosum on 2014-08-19 12:30:23 GMT from )
@39 -- Here's the link to the unfriendly posts:
45 • ZFS (by Jesse on 2014-08-19 13:14:06 GMT from Canada)
I don't know why, but for some reason many people (including OS developers) have got it into their heads that ZFS requires a lot of memory. It does not and never has. I've been running ZFS for five years now and it runs passably well on a machine with 512MB of RAM. It runs beautifully on a server/NAS with 1GB of memory.
I wish developers would stop recommending 8GB of RAM or more for ZFS since it requires less than 256MB under normal operation. It scares away a lot of people who would otherwise benefit from this great technology.
46 • Good Arch! (by lucke on 2014-08-19 13:58:21 GMT from Poland)
I meant "against wishes", not "will", in my previous comment.
rufovillosum, if you had mentioned in that topic that you had spent one week fighting with it, perhaps they'd have looked at it differently. Well, this antibot protection is a bit problematic. But sadly, which isn't.
47 • Ugly Arch? (by lucke on 2014-08-19 13:37:23 GMT from Poland)
I have been using Arch and have been present on its forums for almost 10 years. I'm perhaps the second oldest (registration-wise) member actively posting. And I have found the comments about the hostility of the forums surprising. Which begs the question: why the difference in perception?
I often see mentions that the Arch community is great (even yesterday! https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1448244#p1448244), and it's partly because of this community that I've been using Arch and helping out on the forums. It at least seems to be pretty great technically (the Arch wiki is perhaps the most complete out there and I often see the wiki and the forums as first search results in Google, with personalization turned off), but people there don't tick me off and I have respect for the regulars. The forums are mostly technical, however, without offtopic discussions about blueberries.
In the olden days, without the wiki, one often had to create lengthy answering posts with instructions, nowadays it's often enough to link to the wiki. Sometimes people seem to get annoyed by that - they ask a question which is apparently covered in the wiki (without mentioning that they have read the appropriate article), they get linked to the appropriate article by people knowing the wiki well, they take umbrage. Sometimes people ask the simplest questions which can be found easily by googling, the mods' response might not be to their liking. Sometimes there are multiple topics about the same issue, because people didn't apparently bother to search the forum, mods get to merging and whatnot, someone might feel slighted. Sometimes people using other distros (usually Arch-based) post on Arch forums, their topics get closed, because Arch has a sound policy of not supporting other distros (with differrent packages and configs), they might not like that.
All in all, I don't see hostility in the forums. If you read the rules and follow them and if you do your own research before posting, you should get proper (and apparently quality) assistance. If a mod closes your topic, you can always ask for it to be reopened. And I don't see many closed topics. I see forums with a good signal-to-noise ratio.
I'd like to see what you people find hostile. Maybe the community does something obviously wrong without realizing (of course, one has to remember that a community is formed by many different people, with differring personalities, attitudes and social graces). Anything that goes against our will can be judged hostile.
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=113819 is a good topic to read, I guess.
@42 I don't quite see anything hostile or negative in that topic. I do see they went against your will ;-) Their responses might be construed as elitist, but they do elucidate their reasoning. And getting your topic moved to "topics going nowhere" might feel slighting, but "ineffective discussion" topics end up there, so as not to be indexed by search engines.
Well, the problem is that a sufficiently complex shell command that would work in all shells would be hard to find. If I got an error like that, I'd change to bash and try in it. The question could be changed to captcha, and then links users would feel left out ;-)
48 • Bad Arch (by frank on 2014-08-19 14:33:44 GMT from United States)
I'm not sure what kind of replies you received from your "broken" test thread, but an acquaintance of mine once mentioned it since he thought it was "clever", which prompted me to take a look.
Not to let the cat out of the bag, but his conclusion, and I came to the same conclusion, was that it was "broken" by design. In theory, it ensures a certain level of technical competency within the community. Essentially, beginners need not apply; check the wiki, because the Arch basics are well-documented. If you can't do it, you don't belong there. Consider it your "final exam". This has been a part of their "ethos" for a long time.
To put it another way, it's like putting a basic math question on the registration page of a trigonometry board. As the logic goes, you don't want people asking about basic math on a trig board, do you? No, if they need help with basic math, they should either consult with the basic math wiki or jump on the basic math board. If they learn the basics, then they can "apply" for the trig board.
49 • @45 ZFS (by greg on 2014-08-19 14:34:48 GMT from Slovenia)
Well that is reassuring. I was thinking of getting a small server with 4GB ram (the HP Micro) and it seems that Freenas+ZFS should then handle it well.
50 • @45 ZFS (by frank on 2014-08-19 14:58:33 GMT from United States)
Certainly. I actually have a setup like that (HP Micro), but with nas4free. It only has roughly 3TB on a RAIDZ, but it works fine for our current usage patterns.
I wonder sometimes if they make that recommendation purely for the deduplication requirements, but if you look into that, most recommendations are always some sort of function of storage size, which in my case would likely end up meaning adding a SSD to the HP Micro, so not sure where they get those recommendation numbers.
51 • rude forums (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 15:18:53 GMT from United States)
Frankly, I've never noticed it. The occasional curt or sarcastic "google it" responses I've seen have almost always been well deserved. On the other hand I've never been directly on the receiving end of it as I rarely post my own Qs. I almost always find the answer just searching threads pre-existing threads. Which brings up the next point: there is an advantage to having "elitist" communities. As a general proposition I can find sharp fixes from skilled users without having to sift through poor qualilty posts and sometimes downright harebrained and destructive "solutions" if I search Arch or Gentoo threads. I'm not saying there aren't highly skilled users with other distros, just that the mix is somewhat more refined in the "so-called" intermediate or advanced distros.
52 • Rolling (by Smellyman on 2014-08-19 15:52:08 GMT from Taiwan)
I like rolling on Arch (and Manjaro) not only because of the updated software, but mostly for their unparalleled AMOUNT of software. Between the AUR and main repos, I have found everything I have ever needed. No messy PPA's needed.
When I try other distros I am always disappointed with the lack of software.
53 • Arch Attitude (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-19 18:28:05 GMT from Nicaragua)
The main problem with The Arch forum attitude is they discriminate against anyone who doesn't Read, understand technical terminology, Ask questions, or have the same ideas of communication as they do...
I hate to thinkHow many times have I read a piece of advice in a Wiki or manual. and can see no relevance to my issue. but on posting that issue someone has said oh yes i had problems with that and give you a clearer instruction.. well with Arch forums thats not an Option if you don't read it and understand your not worthy of using there distro..
English isn't my first Language and was brought up a certain way of having a discussion and how converse with starangers, inthe Arch forums you Must ask their way or you infringe their ettiqute.
People have different ways of learning reading alone is not always the best..specially when you hit problems not actually covered in the same way as you experience as they expect in the manual.
these quote sum up the attitude of the Arch forum and the elieist discrimitarory attitude
Arch is a small, relatively specialized community. There is no attempt to make it a popular, one-size-fits-all distro."
Don't want to be Popular, i.e we want to be elite
Anyone else wanting help here can either read the Etiquette and make a conscious decision to bring something to the community, or learn to deal with the inevitable disappointment that will follow..."
sounds like its Policy to not help anyone but the people THEY want anyone else can go whistle dixie
If Arch don't want everyday people to try and be users of their distro why let it be promoted on DW why not have a request only policy so only a select few can ever get it.. after being refered by other experienced users...
here is a post showing how a guy posting what should be a easy to answer question on compiling gets treated.. because he has a different way of doing things .. then goes on to get insulted by a moderator
the guy is obviosly foriegn and thought differently to the mod where his post should be.
shouldnt the first action be to in a friendly manner explain where his post should be, and simply ask for some more info..that would have helped the guy and not been abbrasive, bt Due to Arch policy thats not acceptable
54 • Rudeness (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 18:59:07 GMT from United States)
The comments to this thread (about Ubuntu forums) have some intelligent perspectives about the pros and cons of elitist vs. accepting attitudes in distro forums: http://www.rhyous.com/2010/03/10/debian-and-ubuntu-users-have-the-elitism-attitude-or-being-technical-is-no-excuse-for-being-rude/
While intentional rudeness and insults are not useful or appropriate, I have no problem with seeing moderators rebuff questions where the answer is readily available. If I were learning karate from someone with high-level skills, and the karate master was harsh and demanding with me, I would be happy because of the steep learning curve. If he were always tip-toeing around my hurt feelings and spoon-feeding me I might feel better, but we'd waste a lot of time and maybe I'd never gain independence. This is just how I see it. If the person has skills he or she is willing to impart, I don't care if they lack social skills or they're cranky because they've been up all night coding. I don't want to start a flame war. It's good that we have communities with different cultures.
55 • 53 • Arch Attitude (by mandog on 2014-08-19 19:22:18 GMT from Peru)
What exactly was wrong with the arch attitude, A undefined question was asked.
the forum asked for more details and got disrespect come on get the facts right.
If I were you I would go to Jasonwryan web site and find out how much he does care and contributes to Linux?
Or go to any other of the Arch contributors and find out how much they contribute.
56 • Arch Attitude (by Hombre-Guapo on 2014-08-19 20:18:43 GMT from Nicaragua)
You need to read again ..The Guy in question had what he thought was a question about programming moved without telling him and before he could post requested code
Q, Edit a source code is not programming issue?
So wath it is
"A question that includes the output of the patch command or other meaningful error/logs belongs in that board: pointless handwaving about "it's not compiling!" belongs here or (more likely) in the dustbin.
what a good friendly attitude
But all my problem about "it's not compiling" its linked with c syntax problem. Its a programming issue, and the best place to find someone to answer is logically in the programming section!
And i see that in programming section have a lot of topics with question like this, and appear that you dont see any problem, if you want to follow the rules, do it to everyone!
then a insulting reply
you aren't "discussing" anything. karol asked you in #2 to paste code and, instead of that, you are blathering on like an incontinent poodle about how your thread deserves to be in a board for technical issues.
obviously the Mod had decided he and only he is correct on where the post should be..so has to resort to petty name calling to keep the Arch attiude of unfriendliness rolling.
Maybe the Guy contributes a lot to Linux that should not give him the right to be down right rude and insulting to other people..if he has a personality problem that he can't cope with other peoples attitude he shouldn't be a moderator...if he spoke to most people like that in public life in a service environment he would be jobless very quick..and probably in need of dental treatment..
57 • ZFS; arch fora (by Somewhat Reticent on 2014-08-19 20:38:57 GMT from United States)
Wasn't ZFS originally for "Enterprise" critical systems? Does ZFS for Home mean SOHO?
Perhaps less-expensive uses inherently accept certain compromises - but then, should they be using (some subset of) OpenZFS?
Perhaps graduates may apply (to an arch forum), but for mentoring (Anter)go(s) elsewhere, like (for the self-teachable) the wiki, or 'manjaro, and get an education first? If so, should access involve an entrance exam?
There are other examples of an arch attitude in life - consider how often judges chastise unskilled or self-representing lawyers.
58 • Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 21:06:55 GMT from United States)
@48 ... that the Arch entrance exam is broken by design and ensures a certain level of competence, trigonometry, etc.
The "entrance exam" requires cutting and pasting the command they give you in the question into a terminal and copying the output back into the answer field. It's not a test. It's a geeky captcha. But, again, this whole issue of attitude is down to personal preferences.
59 • Arch forum entrance exam (by frank on 2014-08-19 21:36:10 GMT from United States)
I didn't say it was hard. It had been a while since I last looked at it, but I could have sworn it was missing a quote or something of the sort in the past. The question may have been revised from time to time since then. But based on the post I referenced, what you've asked for is clearly harder for some people than others. :)
60 • @56 • Arch Attitude (by mandog on 2014-08-19 21:42:01 GMT from Peru)
Read the forum rules on any forum
It will tell you do not argue with forum staff it can result in your post being deleted or you could get banned.
That is the long and short of it stick to the rules and there is not a problem argue with forum staff or forum members pay the price, to the majority that is common sense in any forum.
61 • @59 Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 22:15:42 GMT from United States)
This is the question: What is the output of "date -u +%V$(uname)|sha256sum|sed 's/\W//g'"? If you don't exclude the " " from the command when you cut and paste you don't get the output. It took me two tries because I just cut from date to the ? the first time. It seems if they wanted to it could be made completely mistake proof, but it also doesn't seem to qualify as intentionally broken, a riddle, a coders test, a barrier to entry, etc.
62 • @61 Arch forum entrance exam (by frank on 2014-08-19 22:44:56 GMT from United States)
I think there was some thought put into it. Fact is, you either need the tools (all the commands used in that command) or you need to know what the tools do. That's your barrier to entry right there, and like I said, it's not hard, but it is there. You're right, it is a geeky captcha, but there were other things under consideration when they made it.
Here's a good link on their quest to fighting spammers (and setting the bar): https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=104892
Their more recent endeavor: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=152460&p=1
63 • Arch forum entrance exam (by linuxista on 2014-08-19 23:25:23 GMT from United States)
Right you are. I guess I just got lucky, had dev-tools or whatever the bundle is installed by default, and my first idea of cutting and pasting worked out. The thread you posted is interesting since the posters sound like they're trying to solve a problem, strike a reasonable balance and don't come off like elitist jerks.
64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Gilbert Boisvert on 2014-08-20 01:34:52 GMT from )
I don't know what's wrong, but I tried three mirrors for downloading PCLinuxOS-64-KDE-fullmonty. None of them got past 30MB, and it tripped off K3B to burn the unfinished .iso.
I wanted some answers, so I went to the PCLinuxOS website's forum. Auto registration is disabled, and we must email Texstar. No reply yet.
Anyone else has had this experience? I did not try the other versions, so I can't vouch for their stability. I only wanted the 3.9GB 64-bit Fullmonty.
I find it odd that a new release whould perform like this. I also experienced on my high speed Internet connection, of expected download times of 24+ hours for a 3.9GB download. I did not feel too comfortable having to live with a bunch of snail servers for a whole 1-day+ of downloading. It seems to me that allowing high speed downloaders faster download bancwidth, would allow their server a better chance to serve more people, faster.
So I'm off to find another OS that will download faster, and will go all the way to completion.
65 • @64 - downloading PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Hoos on 2014-08-20 03:47:02 GMT from Singapore)
Last night, I downloaded the KDE and Mate versions without problems. The download speed was very good. Did not try the Fullmonty.
66 • arch linux (by hadrons123 on 2014-08-20 05:03:25 GMT from India)
Its not the community as whole who is averse to new users but mostly the mods who respectfully ask the user to move someplace else for support calling the forums are for more elite such as themselves.
Off-topics started by users and criticism gets the iron fist first.
67 • PcLinuxOs Download (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 05:35:15 GMT from United States)
If you torrent it it won't be corrupt.
68 • PcLinuxOs Torrent (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 05:37:21 GMT from United States)
This is a better link.
69 • Arch Forum Brew-ha-ha (by cykodrone on 2014-08-20 08:30:41 GMT from Canada)
1) I don't run Arch but have landed in their wiki from a search engine to fix my problem(s) many times (even though I don't use Arch, their info lead to fixes), thanks for the thorough and informative documentation.
2) Arch doesn't pretend to be a n00b friendly distro, so if wannabes wander in to the lion's den and get their heads bit off, oh well.
3) I've experienced rude-tude in other distro forums, even so-called n00b friendly distro/forums, elitism does exist, and sometimes a-holes become admins (their sad little lives revolve around the little bit of power they have), it's a fact of life, get used to it.
4) I put up with ZERO carp from anybody, if I get banned standing my ground, so what, I don't need the distro's lame forum anyway.
5) I occasionally make financial donations to FOSS program developers and distros, if I get attacked by an over zealous admin or veteran user, they can forget a donation.
6) At some point I had to search RTFM because I saw it a lot (directed at others) but I had no clue what it meant, some people deserve it, on the flip side, search engine answers using the right terms/string has become an art, especially now that most search engines are ad revenue-centric, and some search results are just truly unbelievably stupid, it depends on what search words you use and in what order.
70 • Rolling on... (by Michael on 2014-08-20 09:41:03 GMT from Australia)
I have broken Arch twice in 8 years.
Both X related.
Once because of an ATI video driver once because of a change to the keyboard config.
SSH still worked and I could get a fix happening.
Without Arch I would know a hell of a lot less than I do, in theory and practice.
I consider myself a moderately better than average Arch user (never found a problem I couldn't solve myself) but in the world of Windows and Ubuntu users I am considered a Guru.
I am glad they don't know Allan.
71 • Arch vs Manjaro (by Peter on 2014-08-20 12:39:09 GMT from Spain)
To each, it's own...because even though sharing the same base, Arch and Manjaro are directed at different audiences. And this is immediatly visible from minute 1: the instalation...and even the LiveCD medias.
Am I capable of doing a basic net install and then adding KDE and configuring it all? My answer is: MUST I ??? Please, I truely respect Arch and it's invaluable wiki but at I can no longer spend hours tinkering...if I can boot and install a fully working "Marcharo" in 30 min, then so be it. Plus, they have easy mannered forums.
72 • @64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 (by Rev_Don on 2014-08-20 14:56:18 GMT from United States)
I don't find it that odd at all considering it is a NEW release and their servers are probably getting swamped. I run into the same thing quite often with new releases, even the Canonical servers have issues the first couple of days of a new final release. That's why I normally use Torrents (as was suggested previously). It will allow for the fastest possible downloads (as long as the majority of users continue to seed), error correction, and will allow you to resume an incomplete download. Overall, it's the ONLY way one should download large ISO files like this.
73 • Arch v. Manjaro (by linuxista on 2014-08-20 14:56:26 GMT from United States)
I love Manjaro. It's a great distro no doubt about it. But if you install one of the Arch re-spins like Bridge there's not that much difference in tinkering time. I would still send a noob to Manjaro, though, and if my Arch install ever broke (5 years and counting) I probably would just switch to Manjaro, because it's slightly easier out of the box, you get a BFS kernel by default, you don't need to set up reflector for pacman, and a few other minor things. The only "downside" I see is about a 2 or 3 week delay in getting the newest updates. That's no problem at all.
74 • @64 • Distribution Release: PCLinuxOS 2014.08 Pt 2 (by Rev_Don on 2014-08-20 15:22:15 GMT from United States)
Just finished downloading the 64bit KDE Full Monty at 4+ MB/s via torrent taking about 12 minutes to fully download. It maxed out my new connection so I don't know how fast it could have downloaded.
75 • Keep rolling (by Conni on 2014-08-20 17:33:58 GMT from Germany)
Started with Rolling Release in February with Linux Mint Debian (LMDE). There were no stability issues, I survived two Update Packs. In June I had performance problems with LMDE and Lubuntu in parallel, probably due to the older kernel in these Debian-based distros. Slowly I migrated all my computers to Antergos then. No problems so far on three computers.
76 • Why is there such an interest in rolling-release distributions? (by ddalley on 2014-08-21 02:01:25 GMT from Canada)
Because we are fed up trying to chase the latest upgrade every few months. There is a process that avoids it, so use it. Rolling releases are part of it, but there are other ways. Linux Mint has one that is a reasonable compromise. There may be more. I will support htem more as time goes on because time is not on my side.
77 • Cool! (by Brüno on 2014-08-22 16:32:44 GMT from Sweden)
Very niiice! Waiting for the next relese with upgrade options and more security stuff "was" a big fan of BSD a few years ago (servers). Yes linux distros is for sure ok and many times easyer to manage with diff web based CP or to get the web CP up and running my main reason to switch to debian on most of my servers where cuz of this.
Time to test install ZFSguru now :)
78 • Migrate SAP from UNIX to LINUX! (by Migrate SAP from UNIX to LINUX on 2014-08-22 17:23:29 GMT from Sweden)
This is awsome just what i been looking for secure as FreeBSD easy as cpanel :)
I did a test-setup @ work lab (play room :)) works great with opteron dual quad 3.2ghz
2x EonStore 16x2TB 7200rpm RAID 10 (4 as hotspare) my EONś got 2gb cache built in.
6x4gb 7200 rpm raidZ (3x as hotspare)
2x32gb intel SSD os/swap2 raid 1
4x OCZ RevoDrive 3 120GB PCI-E raid 0 (cacheing swap 1 snapshots etc etc)
We use SAP ATM but looking to start use FreeNAS at production for our backups been running over 10 months old HP SCSI servers total 8x servers mirror-mirror DL385 32gb ram 4x storageworks 14x300gb 15K.
4x 32GB SSD for cache etc RAID 0
plus 6x4TB per server RAID 60
Just about 6TB storage for backups on lots of disks at two locations yes we still use tapes and weekley disk swaps very paranoid backup solution for a smal corp with importent data and smal budget (solar/wind aka eco power and no need for AC or HEAT)
79 • Linux blues (by anon on 2014-08-23 02:18:24 GMT from Norway)
I have been using Arch for going on seven years and I am not planning to quit. The people complaining about the behaviour of Arch Linux forum mods & regulars, however, are absolutely correct! It is simply horribly uncouth. Not because they are elitist per se, if you ask me, but because they apparently missed a civilised upbringing and politeness. Now, like attracts like and that's that.
I have had very few problems with Arch over the years, and none that haven't been fixed within a day or two. What I see as much more troubling is that Linux in general is a day late and a dollar short when it comes to hardware compatibility. My latest experience is a 15 months old Radeon card which is still not workably supported by either the open-source driver or X. So much for the 'enthusiastic' Linux open source developer crowd.
80 • Arch (by CED on 2014-08-23 21:14:02 GMT from United States)
@79 I agree with you about Arch Forums and the attitude. Chakraos & Opensuse are the same way. I think they all have an elitist vibe which is unfortunate.
I do like Antergos as the forums are welcoming and friendly. They are eager to help. They want you to stay and ask questions, and learn! What a concept...
The updates are regular and solid. It is an easier version of Arch without the repugnant smugness.
81 • Rough forums (by linuxista on 2014-08-23 22:42:24 GMT from United States)
As an American I've never noticed the smugness in the Arch forums, but I've never posted questions there myself, just dipped in to get what I needed. But I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to our Norwegian comrade. I had a Norwegian friend living in the U.S. who was amazed that all the stores and restaurants here played music. He said that in Norway they wouldn't dare. Really? I said, because the customers would complain? No, he said, they would never dare! No offense meant. I think it's endearing.
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