 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 533, 11 November 2013 |
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Welcome to this year's 45th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! In the open source community we are accustomed to seeing Linux distributions come and go. Some fork, some rise to fame and some quickly disappear. This week we learn about the Pisi distribution, a project which has had its share of ups and downs during its life and which is now nearing its 1.0 milestone. Plus, we celebrate a new release from the oldest surviving Linux distribution, Slackware! We will also hear about Point Linux, a Debian derivative that is optimized for the desktop. Is this distribution just another Debian re-spin or does Point Linux offer something special? Read Jesse Smith's review below to find out. This week we talk about desktop performance and how to improve it, using Debian as an example. Further on the topic of Debian, the venerable project is reconsidering its default desktop environment and is currently experimenting with the idea of shipping Xfce as the primary desktop in the next version of Debian Stable. Also in this issue of DistroWatch Weekly we will cover an organization which is combining Linux and recycled hardware to supply computers to those in need. As usual we cover the distribution releases of the past week and look forward to exciting new releases to come. We wish you all a wonderful week and happy reading!
Content:
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (16MB) and MP3 (29MB) formats
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
On point with Point Linux 2.2
 The Point Linux distribution is a project based on Debian GNU/Linux 7 "Wheezy" which features a friendly graphical installer and the MATE desktop environment. The Point Linux website says the distribution is essentially Debian optimized for desktop usage and attempts to provide a high degree of functionality out of the box. The Point Linux distribution comes in two flavours, a Core edition which is 650 MB in size and features a bare essentials version of the MATE desktop. The second edition, Full, comes with multimedia support and more applications. I opted to download the Full version, the ISO for which is about 940 MB in size. Both the Core and Full editions are available in 32-bit and 64-bit builds.
Booting from the live DVD brings up the MATE desktop. The background resembles an evening sky and, on the desktop, we find icons for browsing the file system and launching the system installer. At the top of the screen we find the application menu and system tray. Along the bottom of the display we find MATE's task switcher. I opted to jump straight into the installation process. Point Linux comes with a graphical system installer which presents a fairly intuitive and streamlined process. We are walked through selecting our preferred language, confirming our time zone, confirming our keyboard's layout and creating a user account. We then tell the installer which hard drive we wish to use for the installation. The installer will suggest a partition layout for us and we have the option of overriding the installer's choices and manually editing the drive's partitions. Should we choose to manually partition the drive the GParted partition manager is launched and, when we are finished with GParted, we are returned to the installer where we can assign mount points. We are given the option of installing the GRUB boot loader and then a confirmation screen appears listing actions the installer will take and our current settings. We then have the chance to either go back and alter settings or proceed with the installation. I found the installer copied its files quickly, after which I was prompted to reboot the computer.
Right away I ran into a problem with Point Linux, namely the distribution would not boot on my physical hardware (dual-core 2.8 GHz CPU, 6 GB of RAM, Radeon video card, Realtek network card). I tried several different boot options, but in the end I eventually had to admit the distribution simply wasn't going to give me a login prompt. The operating system did, on the other hand, run beautifully in VirtualBox. Point Linux ran quickly in the virtual environment, it handled virtual machine window resizes gracefully and the MATE desktop was highly responsive. I found logging into MATE caused Point Linux to use approximately 160MB of RAM, a fairly small footprint for a full featured desktop distribution.
Point Linux 2.2 - downloading package updates
(full image size: 862kB, screen resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
In the virtual environment Point Linux boots to a pleasant graphical login screen. Logging in brings us back to the MATE desktop and, almost immediately, a notification appeared in the upper-right corner of the screen telling me software updates were available. Clicking on this notification brought up a simple software update manager which listed new packages available in the software repositories and, with a click, I was able to download and install these waiting upgrades. Further, on the topic of package management, Point Linux comes with the Synaptic graphical software manager. Synaptic has a classic look and takes a package-focused approach to software management. It's a no-frills package manager which allows us to build batches of actions to perform on packages. The interface provides a good deal of information and Synaptic works quickly. Point Linux pulls software packages from the Debian repositories for the most part, with some packages coming from a custom Point Linux repository.
According to the distribution's website, Point Linux is designed to be useful out of the box as a desktop system and I feel the collection of software which comes on the Full edition's DVD supports this claim. The distribution ships with the Firefox web browser along with a Flash plugin. We are provided with Network Manager to help us get on-line. We are given the Thunderbird e-mail client, the Pidgin instant messaging client and the Transmission bittorrent client. LibreOffice is provided out of the box and we are given a document viewer. I found Point Linux came with the Brasero disc burner and the VLC multimedia player. The distribution ships with an archive manager, a virtual calculator and a text editor. We are also given a collection of applications which allow the user to customize the look & feel of the MATE desktop. Digging through the available software I found a collection of administration utilities, including a service manager, a printer manager and an application for working with user accounts. All of this software worked smoothly and I encountered no problems during my time with Point Linux. Digging a little deeper we find Java is installed and Point Linux ships with the GNU Compiler Collection. In the background the distribution runs on the Linux kernel, version 3.2. The distribution also runs a network mail service in the background.
Point Linux 2.2 - running various applications on the MATE desktop
(full image size: 512kB, screen resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
A few weeks ago, when someone first suggested I try Point Linux, I was a little underwhelmed at the idea. I had just finished reviewing Kwheezy, another Debian-based project which featured lots of useful software out of the box and a friendly installer. I was suspicious running Point Linux would be more of the same experience, functional yet overly familiar. As it turned out, I found Point Linux to be both a very pleasant desktop operating system and a very different experience from running Kwheezy. Kwheezy shipped with KDE, had lots of flash, flare and, frankly, far more software than I wanted packed onto its installation media. While Kwheezy was functional, I spent a lot of time trying to calm down the interface and find the software I wanted in the distribution's crowded application menu. Point Linux, by contrast, was much more subtle. Everything from the wallpaper to the icon theme to the simple notification system felt low-key and friendly. Point Linux comes with one dedicated application for each task and the applications are obviously chosen with care to be some of the best available in the open source community. The combination of a few custom packages on top of Debian's stable base made for an uncluttered, super fast desktop experience.
Point Linux 2.2 - various administration utilities
(full image size: 407kB, screen resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
Aside from the hardware-related issue I experienced on my physical machine, Point Linux gave me no problems. In fact, given the distribution's integration and performance in the virtual machine, I found Point Linux to be one of the more pleasant experiences I've had with a Linux distribution in recent memory. The only areas I felt could be improved were minor. For instance, Point Linux comes with the VLC multimedia player which is great for watching videos, but I would have liked to have had a dedicated music player such as Rhythmbox. I also need to acknowledge that Synaptic is a fine, capable package manager, but it isn't as user friendly as some other available software managers. It would have been nice to see these two small gaps addressed. However, at this point I'm really grasping at straws to find things to critique. Point Linux provided a top-notch experience with its performance, style, installer and application selection. I recommend giving it a try, it is (as the project's website states) Debian optimized for the desktop. The distribution is calm, fast, stable, clean and pleasantly uncomplicated.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar) |
Pisi status update, Debian considers switching to Xfce, interview with Mageia's Bruno Cornec, Ubuntu on recycled computers, Linus Torvalds ponders bug-fix only kernel release
 Linux distributions come and some go. A rare few are created, face closure and rise again like a phoenix from the ashes. It looks as though Pisi Linux will fall into this latter category of distributions that, despite setbacks, continue to be developed. The Open Source Frog blog has a post on Pisi Linux -- the project's beginnings, its trials and its ongoing march to a stable 1.0 release. It looks as though Pisi will provide a rolling-release distribution which is built from scratch and will focus on the KDE desktop for its default interface. Be sure to check out the project's website for more information.
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 During the development cycle leading up to Debian GNU/Linux "Wheezy" the Debian team considered the option of making Xfce the default desktop environment for the distribution. This consideration was primarily due to space limitations on the Debian installation CD. However, the developers managed to work around the space restriction and GNOME retained its place as Debian's default desktop. The question as to which desktop should be made the default in Debian's next stable release, named "Jessie", is now on the table. For the time being, Xfce has been made the default as part of an on-going evaluation. The developers want to test the state of accessibility of both GNOME and Xfce, avoid size constraints with regards to CD installation media and evaluate how many people will switch to an alternative desktop if Xfce is made the default. The switch to Xfce is not a final decision, as Joey Hess writes, "This will be re-evaluated before Jessie is frozen. The evaluation will
start around the point of DebConf (August 2014). If at that point GNOME looks like a better choice, it'll go back as the default."
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  Bruno Cornec, a Linux enthusiast and one of the most prominent contributors to Mageia (and previously also Mandriva Linux), has given an interview on his favourite distribution's blog. When asked about his beginnings with Linux, the well-known Mageia personality gives an overview of his involvement with the popular open-source operating system: "I started using Linux in 1993 with Slackware and kernel 0.99pl14. After some years compiling software more than using my distribution, I found the concept of packaging very useful and adopted Red Hat Linux rapidly after it appeared. But after some years dealing with dependencies manually, I finally found that Mandrake Linux was providing, with urpmi, a very nice way to solve my pain point, so again I moved an adopted it. The move to Mandriva was obvious, and the move again to Mageia was also for me obvious as it was a community-driven project which I find more valuable and nearer to what I search for in FLOSS. And as I'm doing lots of stuff, I thought that if I had a bit of time to dedicate to a distro, it should be a community one, RPM based to benefit from the background I had, (and not RPM5!) and with nice people caring for it."
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 Project: Community Computers is an organization which attempts to reduce the divide between those who can afford Internet-enabled computers and those who cannot. The project reuses and recycles computers, passing the machines on to communities where modern computers are not available or not affordable. System76, a company which specializes in shipping computers with the Ubuntu operating system pre-installed, is getting involved with Project: Community Computers. The I Love Ubuntu blog reports: "System76 is involved in reducing the gap between developed and undeveloped countries/regions/individuals (from an economic point of view) by offering computers powered by Ubuntu to in-development persons, and, therefore, increasing their ability to experience a more proper IT life and to benefit related effects (increased knowledge, Internet, communication across the world, etc)." It is good to see free and open source software being used to bring technology to those who can benefit from it most.
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 Linux distributions and the Linux kernel itself are constantly evolving. The number of companies and developers contributing to the popular open source kernel is staggering and the kernel's features are constantly being enhanced. Having this many developers on a project is a blessing, but it carries a concern as to whether all these developers can be convinced to work together to fix bugs rather than to work on interesting new features. That is a question kernel creator Linus Torvalds tackled in a recent mailing list post where he mentioned, "I've been mulling over something Dirk Hohndel said during LinuxCon EU and the kernel summit. He asked at the Q&A session whether we could do a release with just stability and bug-fixes, and I pooh-poohed it because I didn't see most of us having the attention span required for that... Maybe it would be possible, and I'm just unfairly projecting my own inner squirrel onto other kernel developers." Linus went on to suggest that an upcoming kernel release may be entirely focused on bug-fixes, encouraging developers to improve the quality of the kernel rather than work on new features.
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
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Improving desktop performance post-upgrade
Slow-and-Wheezy asks: Could we have your opinion on 32-bit vs 64-bit versions of Debian Stable? I have a laptop with 2 GB RAM running default Wheezy/GNOME 3 on AMD64 now. It feels really heavy especially when I add some of the GNOME extensions that I used on Squeeze. So will it be beneficial (from a CPU/RAM/hard drive usage perspective) if I do a clean 32-bit installation?
DistroWatch answers: The subject of running 32-bit vs 64-bit builds of operating systems seems to be a topic which triggers strong responses in people, for one side or the other. People favouring 64-bit system correctly point out that 64-bit applications running on a 64-bit operating system will almost always perform a little better. Fans of 32-bit systems will point out that 32-bit applications usually use less memory, meaning the operating system will be less likely to require the use of (slow) swap space. Personally, from the benchmarks I have seen and from my own experiences using both 32-bit and 64-bit systems, I do not feel a strong case can be made either way. Yes, 64-bit applications tend to be slightly faster, but for typical desktop usage I doubt a person will notice the difference.
The point I am coming to is I strongly doubt the "really heavy" feeling you are experiencing with Debian "Wheezy" and the GNOME desktop is a result of running a 64-bit build. Nor do I think changing to a 32-bit build would improve matters. I suspect the difference in performance you are experiencing has more to do with the GNOME desktop. If I recall correctly Debian Squeeze (the operating system which ran smoothly) shipped with GNOME 2 while Debian Wheezy shipped with GNOME 3, a very different desktop environment. Even if a person uses GNOME's Fallback mode in order to gain an experience like that offered by GNOME 2, there will still be a difference in the underlying code. There may also be an issue with non-optimal video drivers being used on the new Wheezy installation which will introduce a sluggish feel to the desktop interface.
Assuming you were satisfied with the GNOME 2 style interface, I would recommend installing the MATE desktop on Debian Wheezy and see if that makes a difference in the performance. As MATE is a continuation of the GNOME 2 code it will offer a better base from which to compare performance between the two versions of Debian. Also, check to make sure the video driver in use is the best one for your card, there may be drivers which offer better performance in Debian's repositories. There are also other, lighter desktop environments out there such as Xfce and LXDE which may offer similar features and better performance. The desktop interface being used is more likely to positively impact performance than a switch from a 64-bit to a 32-bit install.
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| Released Last Week |
Frugalware Linux 1.9
James Buren has announced the release of Frugalware Linux 1.9, a general-purpose distribution for intermediate and advanced Linux users: "The Frugalware developer team is pleased to announce the immediate availability of Frugalware Linux 1.9, our nineteenth stable release. No new features have been added since 1.9rc2. Here are the most important changes since 1.8 in no particular order: updated packages - Linux kernel 3.10.17, X.Org Server 1.14.2, GNOME 3.8, KDE 4.11, LibreOffice 4.1.2, Mozilla Firefox 22.0 to name a few major components; netconfig has been replaced by NetworkManager; frugalwareutils has been replaced by the new fvbeutils; vi binary symlinks are now configurable, used to be hardcoded to their packages; old display manager legacy service has been dropped for the new systemd method of individual service files; console keymaps and x11 keymaps are now managed by the systemd method." Read the rest of the release announcement for more information.
antiX 13.2
antiX 13.2, an updated version of the lightweight Debian-based distribution designed for older and low-specification computers, has been released: "The antiX team is pleased to announce the second update of antiX-13 full version for 32-bit and 64-bit systems, based on Debian 'Wheezy'. This update includes those made upstream and various bug fixes specific to antiX. We have also included some new user-requested features for you to enjoy. antiX changes: to fit on a CD, some applications had to go (of course, they can be installing using apt-get or synaptic); upgraded 3.7.10 kernel to include zRAM as requested by users; removed alsa-oss, exoodles, gigolo...; Connectshares - various improvements and fixes; fixed broken persistence with 'toram' option; corrected old antiX repository error in 32-bit full version; fixed various JWM menu bugs; links to Rox manual fixed in menus and documentation...." The release announcement can be read on the distribution's news page.
GhostBSD 3.5
Eric Turgeon has announced the release of GhostBSD 3.5, a new version of the project's FreeBSD-based operating system offering a choice of LXDE, MATE, Openbox and Xfce desktop user interfaces: "The GhostBSD team is pleased to announce the availability of GhostBSD 3.5 'Levi'. This is the third release from the 3.x series, which improves GhsotBSD 3.1 and introduces some new features. Some of the highlights: OpenSSL has been updated to version 0.9.8y; DTrace hooks have been enabled by default in the GENERIC kernel; DTrace has been updated to version 1.9.0; Sendmail has been updated to version 8.14.7; OpenSSH has been updated to version 6.2p2; GNOME 2.32 has been replace by MATE 1.6; Xfce 4.10 is now part of desktop choice; GhostBSD BSM theme with custom Faenza icon; MATE, Xfce and LXDE contain a more uniform set of software...." Here is the full release announcement.
Slackware Linux 14.1
Patrick Volkerding has announced the release of Slackware Linux 14.1, a new version of the world's oldest surviving Linux distribution: "After over a year of development (including the beta release and several release candidates to get everything polished up) we're proud to announce the availability of the new stable release. You'll find updates throughout the system, with the latest compilers and development tools, and recent versions of applications, window managers, desktop environments, and utilities. The Linux kernel is updated to version 3.10.17 (part of the 3.10.x kernel series that will be getting long-term support from the kernel developers). The x86_64 edition of Slackware also adds support for installing and booting on systems running UEFI firmware." Read the full release announcement and check out the release notes for further information.
Slackware Linux 14.1 - the default KDE desktop
(full image size: 575kB, screen resolution 1680x1050 pixels)
Alpine Linux 2.7.0
Natanael Copa has announced the release of Alpine Linux 2.7.0, an independent, security-oriented, lightweight Linux distribution designed primarily for servers: "We are pleased to announce Alpine Linux 2.7.0, the first release in 2.7 stable series. Since 2.6, apart from the various bug fixes, several packages have been upgraded: Linux kernel is based on 3.10.18, PHP 5.5.5, QEMU 1.6.1, Xen 4.3.1, PostgreSQL 9.3.1, Samba 4.1.0, NSD 4.0.0, Asterisk 11.6.0, Bluez 5.7, OpenSSH 6.4p1, Lua 5.2.2. Some of the desktop applications that got upgraded and are available for 2.7 include AbiWord 3.0.0, Firefox 25.0, Gnumeric 1.12.8, Evince 3.10 and virt-manager 0.10.0. The full lists of changes can be found in the git log and bug tracker." Here is the brief release announcement with commit statistics.
Wifislax 4.7
A new version of Wifislax has been released. Wifislax is Slackware-based live CD with a collection of utilities designed to perform various security and forensics tasks. Version 4.7 is built from packages released recently as part of the new Slackware Linux 14.1. It ships with Linux kernel 3.10.18 in "normal" or PAE variants and includes two desktop environments - KDE 4.10.5 and Xfce 4.11, the latter of which is a development version compiled by the distribution's maintainer. As always, a good collection of XZM modules is available to extend the functionality of the Wifislax live CD; these include image, video and audio applications, multimedia players, various FTP and P2P clients and many others. Most software packages have been upgraded to their latest versions. The release announcement is in Spanish only, but the live CD offers a choice of Spanish and English localisation for the two included desktops.
Toutou Linux 5.5
Jean-Jacques Moulinier has announced the release of Toutou Linux 5.5, a major new version of the lightweight, Puppy-based distribution designed for older computers and optimised for French-speaking users. Code-name "Wolx", Toutou Linux 5.5 uses Openbox (rather than JWM in previous releases) as the preferred window manager, with the LXPanel taskbar and several customisation options. Also new in this release is OCI, a custom-built program that automates the installation of the distribution on systems dedicated entirely to Toutou Linux. A first-boot assistant is available for configuring various aspects of the desktop, such as keypad and keyboard options, menus, passwords and optional installation of printer and scanner drivers. The Flash browser plugin is not included, but a single-click install option is also provided in the first-boot assistant. Opera 12.16 is the default browser. Read the rest of the release announcement (in French) for further details.
Toutou Linux 5.5 - a French distribution based on Puppy Linux
(full image size: 584kB, screen resolution 1024x768 pixels)
Centrych OS 12.04.2
Jack Radigan has announced the release of Centrych OS 12.04.2. Centrych OS is a desktop Linux distribution based on Ubuntu's latest LTS release (version 12.04 released in April 2014), but it provides more recent versions of many applications. It uses a customised Xfce desktop. From the release announcement: "These images are geared for users who prefer the most recent versions of applications and want to receive both Ubuntu and Centrych updates as they become available. The application versions included with these discs, which are also available in the updates repository, are: LibreOffice 4.0.6 - this is the final update of the 4.0 release; GIMP 2.8.6 - this version is a backport of the release included with 'Saucy'; Clementine 1.2.0 - this is the most recent upstream release; Linux kernel 3.2.0-55 - the current Ubuntu updates version. Note: you do not have to download these discs if you have already obtained the original 12.04.1 disc."
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
New distributions added to database
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Plus-OS. Plus-OS is a Kubuntu-based distribution which comes with additional software in the default installation, including Steam, Chrome, WINE and other desktop applications.
- x9wm Linux. x9wm Linux is a Debian-based distribution which ships with the x9wm window manager.
- ASRI Édu. The ASRI Édu distribution is a Puppy Linux-based operating system maintained by L'association ASRI Éducation. The project's website is in French.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 18 November 2013. To contact the authors please send email to:
- Jesse Smith (feedback, questions and suggestions: distribution reviews, questions and answers, tips and tricks)
- Ladislav Bodnar (feedback, questions, suggestions and corrections: news, donations, distribution submissions, comments)
- Bruce Patterson (feedback and suggestions: podcast edition)
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Debian - Xfce (by Sondar on 2013-11-11 09:13:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
Best news since sliced bread! LXDE has been touted as the lean-mean machine a lot recently, but I have not found it to be a serious competitor. It is slower and more bloated, lacking the ease and intuitiveness of Xfce, being less well-developed and having much less flexibility and options for customising. A desktop should be a means to an end. Personally I have no truck with KDE and Gnome which try hard to be prima donnae themselves, getting in the way of productivity. Bound to be those who disagree, but I speak as an inveterate distro-hopper.
2 • Pointlinux (by anon_proxy on 2013-11-11 09:32:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried pointlinux on my aging amd64 desktop. It was all quick and I found only one problem. The cpu temp was showing double the temperature than other distros. This was in mate. I looked up what the problem could be. It turns out from a mint forum that the culprit could be marco. I then swapped desktop and looked at the temp again. The temperature had reduced but was still roughly 8 degrees hotter than other distros. I reported it on their forum but whoever replied could not or would not understand what I was going on about. So now I dont use it and is first in line to be replaced.
3 • Point Linux (by rastercaster on 2013-11-11 10:20:12 GMT from United States)
Jesse, I love your reviews, but can you really recommend a distro that wouldn't even boot after installation?
4 • Debian and Xfce (by Michael on 2013-11-11 10:31:52 GMT from Germany)
If XFCE would become the default option in Debian, I would be pleased. Less bloated, yet fully functional, intuitive and stable. Would be a good choice that won't distrurb anyone, I guess.
5 • Point Linux (by kc1di on 2013-11-11 10:51:42 GMT from United States)
Thanks Jesse for another fine review. My experience with Point basically mirrored yours, with the exception that it ran on my hardware fine. I also like the uncluttered feel and snappiness of this one.
6 • Debian and XFCE (by kc1di on 2013-11-11 10:53:39 GMT from United States)
I believe that a move to xfce DE on Debian stable would be a good move on their part and more in keeping with there stable environment. as XFCE development seem like a more stable one than Gnome3.
7 • xfce (by greg on 2013-11-11 11:37:26 GMT from Slovenia)
Doesn't xfce use the old gtk libraries ? could that be an issue since no one is developing those?
Anyway - i like XFCE. it really is intuitive. However mostly i use KDE which i believe is a modern desktop. sure, it could have a few features less (the ones that draw CPU power unnecessarily or the ones almost no one uses - activities...) but there are so many good ones.
as for point linux - It's a pitty we don't see these kind of efforts in daddy distro. Debian that works out of the box and configures itself (no tinkering with config files please), is average user friendly etc. could be a win. but then there is Ubuntu that sort of does just that... but it also brings a bit of bloat with it.
8 • rpm.org & RPM 5 (by :wq on 2013-11-11 12:27:59 GMT from United States)
The Mageia Blog interview with Bruno Cornec leads me to ask what are the technical differences between rpm.org's RPM (http://rpm.org/releases/) and RPM 5 (http://rpm5.org/files//rpm/) as they presently exist? I've seen comparisons on the Web (ex. http://lwn.net/Articles/441085/), but they are dated.
9 • PisiLinux (by Mark on 2013-11-11 12:37:46 GMT from United States)
I've followed Pisi development since it started about a year ago. As far as I know it never faced closure. Aside from a troll pretending to represent the PisiLinux development team suggesting that, it has been developed and supported continuously since it's inception.
10 • Point Linux - no formatting option (by TH on 2013-11-11 12:51:35 GMT from United States)
I like Point Linux. It has simplified menus and not too much in any one menu. One can actually refind something one stumbled onto before! The one oddity is that it doesn't seem to be a way to format any disk or stickdrive! Perhaps there is a way using Terminal (?), but that would mean the casual user would have to be very, very careful to not format the wrong drive. Why isn't there a simple GUI way to format a stick drive?!
11 • Centrych OS (by Carlos Felipe on 2013-11-11 12:55:15 GMT from Brazil)
I liked Centrych OS, a beautiful and complete XFCE LTS distro, but I think the trademark and logo weak or non-commercial
12 • Point Linux (by Walter on 2013-11-11 13:19:05 GMT from Canada)
@10: May I point you to System -> Administration -> GParted? It's there out of the box, unlike Ubuntu, and you can format drives/sticks/SD cards 'til you're blue in the face with it. :)
13 • Point Linux part 2 (by Walter on 2013-11-11 13:28:24 GMT from Canada)
I installed Point this morning, and was glad to see Mate as the default desktop manager. It's one less thing I had to do. :)
While the review says it's based on Debian 7 "Wheezy", from what I see, it looks like a somewhat reworked Ubuntu. I'm not complaining about it, though. It didn't look much like a typical Debian-proper installation once it was on the hard drive. Time to mess with it some until openSUSE 13.1 comes out next week.
14 • Debian with Xfce (by r on 2013-11-11 13:46:43 GMT from Australia)
Debian with Xfce, yes please.
15 • Speaking of xfce.. (by brad on 2013-11-11 14:11:39 GMT from United States)
I think XFCE is amazing.. I have Arch w/ xfce and its slick! With Debians reputation of being rock solid.. great combo!
16 • Response To Formatting In Point Linux (Reply To TH In The U.S.) (by sasdthoh on 2013-11-11 14:29:28 GMT from United States)
The simple way to solve your formatting problem is to download and install GParted.
It will partition/format everything on the planet, especially USB attached flash, stick, and hard drives. (Cheers!)
17 • Walter Beat Me To It! (by sasdthoh on 2013-11-11 14:36:32 GMT from United States)
Sorry Walter ..... I started reading from the bottom when I posted my reply to TH and then discovered you had beat me to the punch.
You are absolutely correct. GParted is a top ten application choice for ALL Linux users, even the less experienced because eventually they will learn enough to realize they will need this awesome tool.
Best Wishes To All!
18 • GParted (by Walter on 2013-11-11 14:48:44 GMT from Canada)
sasdthoh: I can't be without it since I do like to look at different distros and need a way to easily reformat USB sticks. If it's not there, it's installed quickly, just like wget is.
19 • Debian xfce (by rop75 on 2013-11-11 14:50:22 GMT from Spain)
I regret to tell all the xfce supporters, that Debian developers said exactly the same in August 2012 (they said that xfce should be the default environment for "the next" debian stable -aka wheezy), and as most of you know Debian team eventually selected GNOME as the default desktop environment for wheezy
http://http://www.muktware.com/2012/08/debian-wheezy-may-ship-with-xfce-as-the-default-desktop-environment/2985
20 • 32bit vw 64bit (by VW72 on 2013-11-11 15:06:59 GMT from United States)
Usually, the rule of thumb for the desktop is 64 bit Linux on modern 64bit machines and 32bit on 32bit machines with two exceptions.
1st if the 64bit machine is somehow constrained (low memory, for example), then even if it is 64bit, 32bit may make more sense.
2nd, and related, if one is planning on regularly running some heavy 32bit apps such as Wine or Skype, you are going to have 32bit libs installed to support those apps anyway. If storage is a problem this will increase that limited resource and if ram is in short supply, you will have to deal with both versions of libraries that perform the same functionality.
However, if the computer is not somehow constrained or use of 32bit apps is only occasional, if at all, then the general rule would normally apply.
21 • Debian + XFCE? no thanks (by carlo on 2013-11-11 15:31:39 GMT from Italy)
Why are people in the Linux world so obsessed with minimalism? With frugal desktops?
I mean XFCE is good OK, as is Razor-QT, LXDE etc etc....
But in my humble opinion these desktops environments should only be meant for making Linux distributions work on outdated hardware.
And at least XFCE started with that goal. Maybe they switched target some releases ago, but frankly speaking I don't see XFCE on the same level as GNOME or KDE in terms of coverage of system configurations and system utilities, let alone on the common apps (mail reader, bittorrent client, messanger, media player, cd burner, etc etc).
and KDE and GNOME, at least, try (and mostly fail) to have some consistency. The "lightweight" desktops do not....
My2c
22 • Re: 21 (by Vukota on 2013-11-11 16:00:38 GMT from United States)
I don't know about you, but no matter how fast & juicy computer I have, the snappier (less resource hungry) desktop is, the better my (user) experience is. Yes, I will prefer XFCE, LXDE, Razor-QT, etc. as long as they don't make me change the way I use the desktop and provide common functionality I need/use from the DE, (and available applications).
For the matter of XFCE, I haven't seen that much differences between it and GNOME from user perspective (both can be made to look/function in a very similar way). Other question is why distributions are not paying more attention to enable all the configuration hooks/tools/settings for properly configuring these other DEs.
Please check distributions that are optimized for these DEs, before mentioning "coverage of system configurations and system utilities".
23 • Debian XFCE (by tyhee88 on 2013-11-11 16:03:40 GMT from Canada)
Given that on those occasions I've installed Debian in the last few years it's always been with an XFCE desktop, making it the default de would be a step up in my view, as well as one step I no longer need to follow.
XFCE is very customizable while still being fairly light on resources. When Wheezy shipped with Gnome as the default desktop it was a great disappointment and a considerable puzzle to me.
bc
24 • @21 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-11 16:31:06 GMT from United States)
"Why are people in the Linux world so obsessed with minimalism? With frugal desktops?"
And by the way, you left out the best minimal DE - Openbox.
For me there's more than one reason:
1. Older hardware - This one being the biggest reason of course. I have an older laptop that can only handle 2GB max RAM and I run Crunchbang on it with an Openbox DE. It runs just as fast as my other laptop running LInux MInt with the MATE DE and 8GB of RAM.
2. Less resources - My Desktop also has Crunchbang with Openbox. I need to run Windows for certain things so that box has 8GB of RAM and I give 3GB to the Windows 7 Virtualbox and it runs just as fast as a regular Windows machine.
3. Virtualbox - The lighter, minimal DE's run much better in Virtualbox machines and allow me to use less RAM when running them.
25 • Re: 22 (by carlo on 2013-11-11 16:41:53 GMT from Italy)
look you're missing the point, please read better. Yes, I can borrow apps from other DEs but that doesn't make them consistent and integrated with my DE.
At least this is how I felt whenever I siwtched to try Xfce et al.
BTW I'm running Debian, and if Debian is not optimized for these DEs I don't know what major distro would. and no I'm not going to install niche distros that disappear from the earth after some months, thanks.
Btw, I'm been running GNOME3 on home laptop for 7 years (Core Duo, 2 Gigs of RAM) and only recently a Virtualbox VM with KDE 3.10 at work (Core i5, 4 Gb RAM), both Debian unstable.
KDE in the VM is incredibly fast and responsive (I was shoked to notice that when I first ran it. I haven't really used it lots of times in the last 10 years). GNOME shows its wheigth of course but the HW I run it is a little outdated. anyway I love GNOME3 experience and I believe no other desktops have the same consistency.
26 • Xfce (by David McCann on 2013-11-11 17:41:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
@7. Yes, Xfce is based on GTK2, but so are a lot of other things. Xfce actually predates GTK1: if they survived switching to GTK, they can surely convert to a new version of it.
@21. Xfce was not designed to be lightweight. It was not designed to be anything other than the first desktop for Linux, for those who envied the commercial CDE. If it seems light, that's because the developers have always set their faces against childish eye-candy and pointless bloat.
27 • Anything but Gnome 3 (by M.Z. on 2013-11-11 17:48:14 GMT from United States)
I think the general consensus is that Gnome 3 completely jumped the shark, and in my experience it no longer offers a default user interface that is inviting to newbies. Frankly I don't see why Debian or any other big general purpose distro would want to subject users to Gnome 3 by default. If your going for a specialist distro the new Gnome might be perfect some some particular sub set of users that you're targeting, but as a general desktop Gnome 3 is garbage. Hopefully the download numbers for the new default desktop on Debian have convinced the team to really switch to something else this time. I know I went straight to the KDE version when I wanted the latest Debian, but some potential headaches can be avoided if a better default is chosen.
28 • Debian and XFCE (by Darren Hale on 2013-11-11 17:48:28 GMT from New Zealand)
I think Debian is totally right to go with XFCE. I installed Wheezy recently and installed icewm and wanted GDM3 login manager and in the past all it would do is install GDM but instead it installed the whole Gnome 3 desktop as well which was shocking.
XFCE is far lighter. To all the moaners take a look at what Spatry did with XFCE to bling it up - if you want the candy do the work.
Debian has always been like Slackware and provided a no thrills experience - just what you need so I welcome the move. Also get rid of Pulseaudio and have it as an option it causes more problems than its worth on my machine.
29 • Debian (by César on 2013-11-11 18:15:17 GMT from Chile)
Hello!!!
It's true, Debian works fine with XFCE, but is better with Mate Desktop (better than Gnome 3 or Cinnamon). The change in Gnome 3 is too radical, heavy, lack of features, etc., not good, bad.
In other way, Mate is almost the same of Gnome 2, the names changes, the aplications is the same, but the performance when install Compiz is not good, the CPU % is "gone to the stars", if you install Compiz because Mate effects is very basic (when compares Mate Marco with Compiz). Is for that i use Gnome 10.04 LTS Server with Gnome 2.** with Compiz 100% (for a while), but the last update of the kernel increments the usage of memory (800 MB is too much, really?).
Debian is in the right way, not "on the edge", not too old.
Maybe i test Slackware in the next weeks, but the Epson XP-201 refuses to works (great difference between Debian based), we search any solution.
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
P.D.: Sorry for my english, spanish is my "lingua mater".
30 • Point Linux (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 18:44:44 GMT from Portugal)
Jesse, perhaps it is time for you to do a thorough check on your firmware, or even on your motherboard.
My working computer is older than yours, and performs better. (AMD Athlon 64 3200+, ati 4xxx series, 2GB RAM) and runs most linux distros with no problem at all, except some sluggishness on Gnome 3 based DEs (including Unity and Cinnamon), which start to be not so much snappy (but doesn't even compare with the slugginess of Win7 on this same machine).
According to my own experience, you are experiencing too much issues with linux distros, issues that i never experienced.
Also, with compiz and emerald installed, my CPU load is around 7%.
Perhaps it is time you seriously consider using another machine for your distro tests?
31 • MATE and Compiz (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 18:47:55 GMT from Portugal)
As advertized in the Point Linux website, MATE 1.6 doesn't work well with compiz, while 1.4 (which is used) works perfectly, and so people are advised not to use compiz if they want to upgrade MATE to 1.6
32 • Slackware 14.1 (by John on 2013-11-11 19:19:07 GMT from United States)
Meanwhile, Slackware 14.1, ftw. Still Gnome-free. Another fine solid and stable release, with no BS.
33 • DE's are just annoying (by fabio on 2013-11-11 19:33:50 GMT from United States)
I believe there's a good reason why Linux never had nor will have a default DE, and the reason for me is that a DE is not really necessary to run linux. In fact, many use Openbox, and love it.
I will actually go further and say that a DE is an obstacle to learn and use linux, as DE's and GUI's hide away the command line commands whose understanding, as we all know, is of absolute importance for any linux user and administrator, whether they like it or not :-P. So my suggestion to novice users who would like to learn linux is to use openbox (crunchbang linux is my favorite).
The more the user learns the command line, the more she realizes that big DE's are not required. I'm sure if we did a survey, we would find out that users with high knowledge of the linux system use lighter DE's, while novice users prefer KDE, GNOME, mate and cinnamon.
So, depending on the goal, KDE/GNOME might be a better solution than XFCE/openbox and viceversa.
By the way, I'm very curious to test x9wm Linux!!
34 • kokoska (by kokoska on 2013-11-11 19:58:51 GMT from Bosnia and Herzegovina)
please stop making more ubuntu spins
thanks
35 • DE's and the command line (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-11 20:02:25 GMT from United States)
@33,
You are correct. The command line is essential in learning the inner workings of Linux, but a desktop environment is really needed for general use. I also agree that the more you use a Linux distro that you learn to do more from the command line. I've used computers since the late 70's and Linux for the last 10 years. I like my DE but I also like my command line. For troubleshooting you can't beat the command line. All in all I believe it's better then the CP/M days, in some ways. :)
36 • Slackware 14.1 (by joe f. on 2013-11-11 20:04:18 GMT from United States)
I almost hesitate to ask for a review of the newest Slackware. I'd love to see it, but it's so steady it's boring. The same basic Slackware software load, the same simplicity and the same stability. There are internal changes, things are configured better, but the feel of the system is exactly the same. Great for users, boring for reviewers.
One difference, though, I followed alienbob's guide and got Netflix working on 14.1. Very nice to be able to watch Netflix at my desk.
37 • Why? (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-11 20:06:23 GMT from United States)
@34,
I know it seems like a lot of Ubuntu spins, and you are right, but that is the beauty of the Linux ecosystem. Software that is free to change and use as you please. With that kind of freedom you get a lot of spins of everything. All in all it's better to have that freedom even if you do get a lot of Ubuntu respins.
38 • MATE and Compiz (by Bill on 2013-11-11 20:35:03 GMT from United States)
You may notice that you have high CPU useage in MATE when running Compiz:
There is a fix which solved this for me. In a terminal type “mateconf-editor” (no quotes) When the editor opens: Go to /desktop/mate/session/required_components/windowmanager and replace marco with compiz. That's it.
Before this fix my cpu's were running from 27% to 39%, but after this fix there was no more problem at all.
See here in Mint 13: I am running Mate 1.6 and everything compiz has to offer, wobbly windows, cube, fire, emerald theme and so on. Conky shows clearly that my 4 cpu's are only using 6%, 1%, 13% and 0%, and I only have 3 gigs of RAM.
Picture: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/FS/M.aspx?v=8970668f5b9aa6a5a99e
And see here in Point Linux, when I am not playing around with the fire effects my cpu's are at 2%, 5%, 1%, and 2%.
Picture: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/FS/M.aspx?v=8970648c5e939f77a296
Mate 1.6 and compiz work just fine together for me on my Quad Core
machine. YMMV
39 • Move on, Why try to live in the Past? (by Chris Nash on 2013-11-11 21:10:46 GMT from United States)
I don't believe this to be a general consensus - Gnome 3 completely jumped the shark, and in my experience it no longer offers a default user interface that is inviting to newbies.
That's opinion much like my opinion. Just because more aren't defending what they use to counter needless, bloated complaining, that doesn't mean it's an actual example of Trash. Maybe it's because many of them are just using their software rather than worrying about how others bitch about it.
40 • @38, 39 (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 21:19:19 GMT from Portugal)
@38 Nice to know that. Will try it on Mint MATE, still have it installed. Never managed to make compiz and emerald run well there, in spite of using fusion-icon...
@39
It is very clear for me: i see absolutely no reason to use Gnome 3 except for those few that actually like what Gnome 3 is. Anyway, it is not a serious alternative to most of us.
Sticking to the KISS principle "if it's working, don't fix it", the effort used by developing that lemon should have been better used on improving and rewriting Gnome 2.
41 • Point Linux (by Jymm on 2013-11-11 21:19:57 GMT from United States)
I have been using Point Linux for a bit over a month, when I saw SolusOS had no direction. I have it on a HP laptop, HP tower and old 2001 Milwaukee tower. I had no installation problems. No CPU usage or temp problems. A few things i love about it. The traditional Mate desktop. It's speed. I found it faster than Puppy on that old computer.
I love the fact it has little software on installation. I added Clementine for a music player. I use different software on my laptop and tower from the old Milwaukee PC, which I keep very light programs on. I only removed one program I did not want after installation on all three computers. That is great, I wish more distros would quit trying to give me the full load. Maybe just include a list of recommend software.
Synaptic if fine if you have used Linux for a while and know the software, or the command line which is faster. If not, I can see where you might want something that suggested more software. As for Compiz, you can install it, but I don't need, cubes, wobbles or any other eye candy. I find Point what Linux should be, you customize it to what you want and need.
42 • Debian default desktop (by jymm on 2013-11-11 21:27:39 GMT from United States)
Anything but Gnome 3. I agree with that. It is unusable. I would actually vote for Mate after using all the desktops.
43 • @30 Jesse's System (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-11 21:38:24 GMT from United States)
I totally agree. He has way too many problems with distros. Of course, since he refuses to post more specific system specs it's impossible for anyone to judge anything from his reviews (and yes I'm back at this as it continues to be relevant).
44 • Default desktop for Debian (by Andrew Perkins on 2013-11-11 22:59:45 GMT from Canada)
I tried GNOME 3 recently but was completely disgusted. My attempts at using KDE 4 or Unity ended up in disasters. I settled for Cinnamon. However, having used Xubuntu last year, I think that XFCE is OK as a desktop environment.
My main gripe with the so-called modern environments like GNOME is that they can be very frustrating. They look like toys designed to induce a psychedelic experience (a.k.a an acid trip).
45 • Point linux formatting - followup (by TH on 2013-11-11 23:06:11 GMT from United States)
re Point Linux and formatting drives followup
Thank you all for pointing out Gparted. Yes, I know about it, but use it only for installing a new distro to a partition or to resize a partition. And you have to know what you are doing so that you don't format the wrong drive. What I do miss in Point Linux (that Ubuntu 10.04 and Solus 1.3 have) is: when one right-clicks on the icon of a hard disk or a stick drive, a menu opens up and one of the choices in the menu is "Format". There is no confusion what drive will be formatted, it just does it safely. To me, using Gparted to format a stick drive is like using an elephant gun to shoot a rabbit.
46 • Re : Improving desktop performance post-upgrade (by Linux411 on 2013-11-12 00:03:49 GMT from United States)
I have installed Slackware both 32bit and 64bit. The funny thing is that Gslapt ran incredibly faster with 64bit versus 32bit, but I never noticed a marked difference on other programs. Unfortunately, I like to play World of Warcraft and WINE on a 64bit runs terrible with the lib32 inclusion. While on 32bit, I get no lag and about 60fps depending on what is displaying.
Which actually brings me to another question I have not been able to find an answer : Will there be a 64bit WINE?
47 • Debian and xfce (by gee7 on 2013-11-12 00:52:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re Debian and xfce, it seems the right move to me and being default, even if for a limited time, will mean more of those clever and great Debian minds are concentrated on making improvements and generally debugging. To right click on the desktop icon to select "format" is an improvement that various DEs need, for example, another being a "Safely Remove Drive" function rather than "Eject" which has caused problems and loss of data for me in xfce.
48 • Pointlinux and dvd playback (by gee7 on 2013-11-12 00:59:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Two very interesting articles this week, on Pointlinux and Pisi-Linux, thank you Jesse and team.
A note for the unwary and not so experienced Linux users: I just downloaded Pointlinux and found it easy and quick to install in a multi-boot system but please note that VLC is unable to play your dvds because libdvdcss is not included by default and is not to be found in the Synaptic Package Manager's repositories.
If you open a terminal and type 'sudo su' followed by 'passwd' you can then set a password to become root user and make changes as root (This is my way of working, others will use sudo).
Once root, type (without the #):
# nano /etc/apt/sources.list
use the down arrow key to reach the end of the list and then add the following 2 lines:
deb http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/stable/ /
deb-src http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/stable/ /
and use the Ctrl and x keys to close the file, after answering "y" to save the file.
Then in the terminal type the following commands@
# wget -O - http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/videolan-apt.asc|sudo apt-key add -
# apt-get install libdvdcss2
and you should then be able to play dvds.
On first impressions. Pointlinux looks good and feels comfortable, next I will see if my old Epson printer works out of the box.
Best wishes all.
49 • Debian and xfce (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 01:00:08 GMT from Portugal)
Anything but Gnome 3, of course!
But it would make a lot more sense to chose MATE. Between the 2, MATE is certainly better.
50 • Point linux formatting - followup (by TH0 (by Jymm on 2013-11-12 01:08:14 GMT from United States)
I understand your concerns. I also installed gnome disk utility. I think you will find that is what you want for quick formatting and no mistakes.
51 • #33 and #36 - DEs are bloat; Slackware 14.1 (by John on 2013-11-12 01:52:49 GMT from United States)
@33 - Agreed, DEs are mostly unnecessary bloat. Everyone would do well to go even one better than a WM such as Openbox, and go pure cli or /dev/fb0 for at least a month, to gain proficiency with the command line. Short of that, perhaps a nice tiling WM such as dwm, i3, or qtile. Having said this, I actually like Xfce, but have no use for Gnome or KDE.
@36 - Absolutely. The thing with distros like Slackware, Gentoo, or Arch, is that reviewers can't just throw in a live CD/DVD and go to town, they have to WORK for it ;-) Upgraded my Slackware installations from 14.0 to 14.1, everything is painless, uneventful, and stable. Glad to see tmux included by default, too, this time; won't have to go grab the SlackBuild!
52 • On Linus's bug fixes, etc. (by naryfa on 2013-11-12 02:15:09 GMT from United States)
YES, for goodness' sake YES! Finally, I've been waiting for this every since I started using Linux. PLEASE DO IT! Stability and fixes are the key.
If Linux is supposed to take a good stand, it has to stand on a hard foundation. Stability and bug fixes are just that!
I would certainly give up the idea of constantly seeing new features to experience a kernel release that is really well done.
53 • Point Linux 2.2 (by Pauli on 2013-11-12 03:19:05 GMT from United States)
From the review: "Right away I ran into a problem with Point Linux, namely the distribution would not boot on my physical hardware..." and concluding with: "Point Linux provided a top-notch experience with its performance, style, installer and... The distribution is calm, fast, stable, clean and pleasantly uncomplicated."
What are you talking about? If a distro will not boot, even after tinkering with it... then how could you POSSIBLY be making the comments that you did... and reaching the conclusion that you came to?
Keep on smokin' it, Jesse!
54 • Pisi (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 03:59:52 GMT from United States)
I downloaded the RC from Pisi LInux last week and have been playing with it in VBox and really like it. It's a bit bloated (11GB) but runs pretty smooth.
55 • X factor (by :wq on 2013-11-12 06:01:26 GMT from United States)
I am glad Debian (at least for now) will default to Xfce, though there was recently an issue in sid (and maybe testing, I wasn't using testing) which resulted in GNOME 3 being installed in addition to Xfce due to recommends run amok (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=714803, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=718855). I haven't reinstalled since to check (I've been busy distro hopping), but I hope selecting an Xfce install will not result in GNOME Control Center being installed either. That really isn't ideal. It had been my hope that Red Hat would support Xfce in RHEL 7 (and contribute any assistance to the Xfce project to make this feasible), but it appears Xfce will still be relegated to EPEL (https://access.redhat.com/site/solutions/56723). For me, GNOME 3, with or without extensions, doesn't compliment my workflow quite as well for a workstation/desktop (RHEL isn't just used for headless servers). MATE in Debian is still a work in progress (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=708385), so there is almost no chance it would be considered to become the default for Jessie. And while GNOME 2 is well established, I would like to see the MATE project exist for a little bit longer before becoming the default DE for a major distribution. Also, Xfce is my preference, regardless of MATE's status.
I wish pekwm would get more notice.
56 • Testing distros on "older" hardware (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 06:08:13 GMT from United States)
I recently met a pre-2008 eMachine with an AMD 64-bit CPU and onboard ATI Radeon GPU on which few distros boot well without the Linux boot parameter radeon.modeset=0 to avoid a blank screen. I am unaware of any utility for determining appropriate boot parameters for specified hardware. Perhaps Jesse simply allows for this lack in his evaluation?
57 • On Point (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 06:39:46 GMT from United States)
I saw a few traces of Ubuntu (and am too noob to understand why a SuperUser cannot recklessly adjust every update setting), but booting Point Linux (v2.2 Mate amd64) as an "unlisted" distro from one of my YUMI sticks was perhaps too smooth an experience. Sigh. Solyd indeed. Do not confuse with Progress Linux ... hey, wait ... centric convergence?
58 • Jesse's video (by jon on 2013-11-12 06:52:19 GMT from United States)
@43 Jesse posted in comment #25 of last week's issue:
Radeon HD 6410D
59 • @39 • Move on, Why try to live in the Past? Chris Nash (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 07:32:59 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Exactly!
Why don't we move on?! We are buying the new mobile, but want to keep Linux distros in the past, sort of in the Windows 98 era.
I am using Ubuntu TT 14.04, and also have installed Gnome shell. Not only that, I've installed Unity8, which is still in testing, but works pretty well. Some actions don't work yet, but those that work, work very well. Its easier to get into files, open documents, web pages, run an app. At this moment, it is sort of an overlay. It doesn't show in the Dash, but starts from the Terminal.
Ubuntu has already testing a new web browser, which is also quite fast, faster than Chromium or Firefox. Well, things are getting on, moving forward. All those, who don't hate Ubuntu for being Ubuntu, should have a try.
Yes, move on, why try to live in the Past?!
60 • Moving on (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 07:58:18 GMT from Portugal)
I always considered a sound idea trying to figure out wether an advertised step forward is a isnt in fact a step back.
Also, being more modern doesnt necessarily mean being better in any way. It has to actually be better to justify the move forward.Gnome 3 and Unity are obviously directed to the touch screen environment, and may even become good at it, but are NOT good desktops for PCs still relying on keyboard and mouse. Replacing the most used PC de by a touch screen DE is not a step forward a step forward for the PC users.
I'm trying not to assume that some people want something only because it looks modern, regardless of it being good or bad.
I'm sorry, but i have no actual evidence that Gnome 3 is any step forward, special for PCs.
61 • @59 Re: Why don't we move on?! (by :wq on 2013-11-12 08:25:24 GMT from United States)
Old paradigms don't die simply because new paradigms are born. Why do we still have gaming consoles when portable gaming devices have been around for decades? I don't consider it living in the past, as the one currently doesn't render the features of the other redundant. Perhaps mobile and touch device-inspired desktop environments will best fulfill all my use needs sometime in the future, but presently they still fall short. I have no problem with adapting to a newer mouse trap when it better suits a task at hand, but I don't like having a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none convergence thrust upon me if the old mousetrap is more task-appropriate for a given situation. I do not want the Unity shell or GNOME 3 DE to whither and die, I'm sure they have their fans and place in this world, but I don't want them to unmeritoriously crowd out other setups either.
62 • @ 61 Moving on (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 08:53:35 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Gnome developers dropped Gnome 2, and that's their freedom. They found, they cannot go on with Gnome 2, so went away from it. Unity started with lot of hiccups, but it was new, something no one had tried. There was lot of opposition from non-developers, but Unity went forward and we have now testing Unity8.
Clem of Linux Mint went ballistic against Unity--he wrote against--and made Cinnamon, and that was new, meaning going forward. Cinnamon had hiccups, but today it doesn't even use Gnome 3 shell.
Some guys started Mate, trying to keep the former Gnome 2 alive. Okay, no problem there, but only that's trying hard to keep the status quo.
KDE came out with Plasma, and had hiccups, but doing quite well now. Some distros use only KDE 4. We got RazorQt, which has its own forward movement.
So, everyone has something for themselves. There's nothing to complain about. And, at this moment, only Ubuntu is moving forward to make a DE or overlay or what-you-see.
Gnome 3 is different, Unity is different and Unity8 is quite different from the rest. Of course, we have Android Jelly Bean, which is also quite different from other Linux distros. I have an old netbook that runs entirely on Android Jelly Bean. Quite an experience.
If we want the old fashioned Windows 98, XP look, there are enough DEs in Linux for that, so we can use them, but without complaining that the others are moving forward. I notice lot of such whining here. I say, use what you like, as there is Linux freedom, but let the others move forward. Live and let live!
I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it. To taste the bacon, you have to eat it, right?
63 • @62 (by :wq on 2013-11-12 09:07:38 GMT from United States)
"I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it."
If such a comment was made above, I must have glossed over it. I fully agree that a person can't know the quality of something without using it. I think DistroWatch lends itself to encourage people to test drive new distribution and technology releases.
64 • CLI (by greg on 2013-11-12 09:42:31 GMT from Slovenia)
so everything in CLI was suggestion? no mouse, right? editing photos, videos, music, visiting social sites, transfering files pictures to and from online storages, previewing them, cad/cam designs... all via cli? i am sure it could be done. will it be more productive? i doubt it. by the time CLI guy checkes which pictures are which (say you need to only move certian 20 out of abotu 100)i will already be moving them with descent file manager that will set them out to preview and i will click drag and drop before one ran write the move command for them.
most popular linux desktop seem to be the one on android phones (even they have different cusomized ones).
65 • It's true I tell you. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 14:15:52 GMT from United States)
@62,
Very well said.
@63,
I'm not sure if was said earlier in the comments but it has been said often of Gnome3, Unity, Cinnamon, Kde, Xfce, and some others. More often then not people will try something for a very short time and if they just can't seem to wrap their head around it then they label it as trash. After that they will never touch it again but they will always still label it as trash. That is just nonsense. If it doesn't fit THEIR perception of what a DE should be then they will say that it's, unusable, a mess, only for smartphones, etc. etc. same old, same old. Then they will pop up and say the developers should have used their resources on a proven acceptable project instead of reinventing the wheel. Well maybe these developers consider the proven acceptable project to be outdated and trash and that wheel to be out of round. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Think about it.
66 • @64 (by fabio on 2013-11-12 15:01:36 GMT from United States)
Hi greg,
kindly let me clarify. I'm not disputing the use of a graphical environment (X) on your linux machine, which as you pointed out is basically essential for the applications/tasks you mentioned. On the contrary, I'm suggesting the use of Openbox as WM.
I'm challenging the fact that bloated DEs are just not essential, that's all. Much of the stuff that comes with GNOME or KDE is either not required or it can be accomplished better and faster, and learning linux with it, by doing it on the CLI. I'm not talking about editing pictures or video, but main admin tasks, using commands like top, free, ps, pstree, netstat, lsof, service, update-rc.d, ssh, lsusb, lspci, lsmod, etc, etc etc and a bunch of more commands like that.
That way you realize that you can actually put your linux in a different context, like in a raspberry pi or old computer and run a webserver or media server (which doesn't even have X), or when you hit a forum and they tell you you have to update initramfs or do modprobe -a you know what's all about!
67 • Not "just CLI" - Keyboard (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 15:15:53 GMT from United States)
With arrow keys and several shifty combinations, fine-grain image work can be done without a mouse. For GUI, mousing facilitates initial adaptation, and keyboard facilitates productivity. Simple vs complex.
As an example, using RatPoison for a time (going mouse-free) should potentially teach the difference between getting a task done well and learning to do it at all. Each has its place.
When I first learned to use a spreadsheet, I couldn't discern the difference between spreadsheet tasks and the vocabulary of a particular spreadsheet app (we called them programs then). Using a different app for the same task helped me appreciate the distinction; it was a liberating learning experience.
Perhaps the touchscreen approach is simply an extension of the mouse vocabulary?
68 • @38 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 15:34:25 GMT from United States)
Yes, I learned that trick when I installed my Linux MInt 13 LTS. It was running about 10 degrees too hot on my laptop. I even went as far as to put XFCE on there and that's how I knew I had a temp problem. Once I replaced compiz with marco temps on XFCE and MATE were identical.
69 • @66 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 16:08:14 GMT from United States)
"On the contrary, I'm suggesting the use of Openbox as WM."
Exactly. I'll admit when I first saw Openbox on Crunchbang I hated it because it was "boring". I was coming from Gnome with Compiz, exploding windows, magic lamp, eye candy etcc. The same with KDE and Kwin. But after playing with Openbox\t I found it quite practical and no-nonsense. If you just want something that works and gets the job done go Openbox.
70 • buntu spins (by tuxtest on 2013-11-12 16:42:55 GMT from Canada)
@34
I agree with you ! it's completly ridiculous....
71 • No it's not. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 17:22:15 GMT from United States)
@34,
No it's not ridiculous. What would be ridiculous is if people didn't have the right to do their respins, no matter what base they use. Who's freedom do you want to take away? The ones doing Debian respins, the ones doing Slackware respins, the ones doing Arch respins, the ones doing Redhat respins, the ones doing Mandriva respins, the ones doing Ubuntu respins, and the list goes on. Again, who's freedoms do you want to take away? Now that's completely ridiculous.
72 • @71 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 18:01:50 GMT from United States)
I totally agree. Not sure where I'd be without Manjaro (Arch respin) Plain old Arch was a bit too challenging for me but what Manjaro did was incredible and I'm thankful. I'm sure others out there have similar examples. Keep spinning away.
73 • RE 71,62 (by dbrion on 2013-11-12 18:39:48 GMT from France)
Is one free to say that a x-th respin is ridiculous? (or that believing compiling, adding a {k,x ...} in front of a name is an original creative work?
Is being qualified as ridiculous logically equivalent to be deprvied of freedom? (ridiculous people remain free to remain ridiculous ... and often remain like that)
BTW : Fedora -and Mandriva-others, I do not know -offer{,ed} different desktops without claiming (K,X,L)Fedora/(G,L,X)Mandriva are/were distributions.
"I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it. To taste the bacon, you have to eat it, right?"
s/bacon/arsenic/ (say)
Most people do not have time to taste everything; choices can be drawn from elementary reasoning, the ingredients they can buy, the fame of the seller-this can be at a zero $ price- (is he spending a lot of energy in PR? is he trying to offer the best things at his clients?)
74 • PiSi Linux RC1 (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 19:18:39 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Installed PiSi Linux on one of the partitions. Installation and post installation instructions are superb. I am glad that Pardus is living again as PiSi Linux. Good distros shouldn't die. Wish the PiSi team good luck in their endeavor.
75 • ubuntu respins (by shrek on 2013-11-12 19:32:58 GMT from United States)
@39,70,71
No really, its enough already. I don't mind respins that actually offer something. Centos is a nice example of that. But the respins that are nothing but cosmetic, or have average software installed are just not worth downloading.
We get it, Ubuntu is the end all to be all in all software ever (sarcasm). But holy crap, a respin with a new desktop background doesn't need to be developed.
76 • Distribution name. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 20:08:51 GMT from United States)
@73,75
The point I'm trying to convey is that people are being told, or lets say asked, to not make any more Ubuntu respins. Why? No one is making anyone download the distro so it's not really anyones concern except the one doing the respinning. Come on people. The base distro is irrelevant. Don't try to twist the freedom to modify and use software into something else, like freedom of speech. In reality why should anyone care. If it's a respin of a distro that you don't care for then why in the world would you even consider downloading it? That doesn't make any sense. I don't do respins but a lot of people do. Some may be proud of their respin and want to share. Others may have other reasons for developing them but we knew this would happen. When you are told that you can take this software, modify it as you see fit, and then give it away if anyone wants it, what are you gonna do. This has always been one of the strong points of open source and it always will be. I will defend anyone's right to create as many respins as they see fit. It's up to us, individually, to determine if it's going to be used by any one of us. Just as they have the freedom to spin we have the freedom not to use if we see fit. This is not that hard to understand.
77 • RE 76 (by dbrion on 2013-11-12 20:25:28 GMT from France)
"The point I'm trying to convey is that people are being told, or lets say asked, to not make any more Ubuntu respins. "
Well, people who tell them are free -and freedom of speech still exists in the real world, not in the Ubu world- to tell or to ask.
They might 'have the right' to ask whether adding a K,L, X show any special skills ... or, maybe, just doing what other distributions do....but then, their original skill is simply to add another first letter... which is either "ridiculous" (71) or public-relations cheating....
Other distros make/made their own respins and do not claim it is a complicated task, people can choose their DE at install (sometimes even at login cf Mandriva 2008/2010 -do not remember which one- icewm, xfce and KDE could be installed and at, login, the same user could coose, IIRC) without trying to advertise by adding supplementary letters ....
And I bet it does not demand huge talents....
78 • Ubuntu respins (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 20:52:11 GMT from Portugal)
What not? I think that here what we have is just covered jealousy.
There are many Ubuntu respins simply because Ubuntu is the easiest base to build upon, followed closely by Debian.
People are just angry at others for not using their distros of choice to build upon, and that is all.
If Fedora or Slackware or Gentoo were easier to build upon, people would use them instead of Ubuntu. As simple as that.
This is just a smoke courtain in order to hide the real cause of your frustration.
79 • PisiLinux (by anton on 2013-11-13 01:05:41 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
Why pisi developers insist to do another distribution ?
Their parent project Pardus gave up on pisi package manager and switched to debian,
instead of developing from scratch everything, switch to debian or help Pardus.
80 • @65 (by :wq on 2013-11-13 01:33:06 GMT from United States)
There is definitely politicking in open source, but I'm not so cynical as to believe that most people who have posted to DistroWatch with criticisms of the GNOME 3 or Unity desktop user experiences are inveterate whiners lacking in consideration, who half-heartedly try something, hoping it will fall short of their expectations, and then never give it a second chance or twentieth chance. I have also seen some people seek to dismiss conventional desktop environments or their users as being stuck in the past when they don't fall in line. Is rail transport stuck in the past due to the dawn of automobile mass production and motorways? Or might there be uses for which it is well-suited? Did the technology stop evolving with regard to its purpose? Of course not.
81 • @58 Re: Jesse's Video (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-13 02:03:24 GMT from United States)
If you had taken to the time to read my entire post at the very least you would have known that your post is unresponsive at best. Providing the video card/chipset provides only 20 to 30% of the equation at best. It doesn't cover the cpu, motherboard (or at least the motherboard chipset), memory, network card/chipset, or any of the other hardware components that could contribute to the problems exhibited in this (and other previous) review.
82 • Regarding spin equivalents of "a pill that gives worms to ex-girlfriends" (by :wq on 2013-11-13 02:13:03 GMT from United States)
Some people's issues with distro spins might be a case of sour grapes, but I don't think that is what is at the root of the matter. This spin nimiety isn't specifically Ubuntu-related, but Ubuntu spins happen to be an easy illustration as there are a lot of Ubuntu spins due to Ubuntu's popularity and the relative ease of creating a respin. Should people have the freedom to create spins? Definitely. Is a given spin deserving of attention and mind share? That is obviously for each person to decide, but I think you will find that there are some common questions many people will ask, such as: 1) What does a spin bring to the table that it's parent doesn't, or that other existing spins of said parent don't? 2) Is the author committed to supporting it, or is it a fickle vanity project that will be dead in a year or two when the author becomes bored or frustrated? 3) What is the effect beyond the immediate sphere of that spin? (ex. Is there a resource cost levied on others? Is there an avoidable duplication of efforts?, etc)
83 • @73 Dbrion (by Chanath on 2013-11-13 03:16:59 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I think the idea is to "taste" what you can, bacon included. Right now, I am tating PiSi Linux RC1 and enjoying it.
You can have many distros in your computer, as far as your documents etc are stored in another partition, which can be reached by all the distros, and even the Windows. You can have that home partition in a FAT32 or NTFS.
It is really nice to "taste" so many distros, Linux or whatever. Good day!
84 • respin (by tuxtest on 2013-11-13 03:26:07 GMT from Canada)
@71
Well! We often had this discussion here often.
It's not a problem that someone built a custom buntu.
The problem is: change the theme, the icons, the wallpaper and some software and then give a new personal name such as exemple * NiceBuntos *.
Ask yourself the following question: What is Nicebuntos is a new Distro that should be listed here on Distrowatch? I don't think so
Is that relevant? The answer is not.
Is it appropriate to build your own version of Ubuntu? or course. yes why not
But it should remain be a personal project. This is not relevant included to the list of Distrowatch. This does nothing more for user and community.
best regard at all
85 • Debian/XFCE; Slackware 14.1 (by digger on 2013-11-13 03:48:19 GMT from United States)
Re XFCE for Debian hurrah!
Re: Slackware 14.1 just installed iton my laptop.: very good & using XFCE as DE.
What I like about all three is that they just work and don't get in the way, My 2 ¢. YMMV.
86 • RE 78 Jealousy and facts (by dbrion on 2013-11-13 07:47:15 GMT from France)
"
If Fedora or Slackware or Gentoo were easier to build upon, people would use them instead of Ubuntu. As simple as that."
Well Fedora offers evry night -at least except for intense testing periods, such as now- 14 respins, built automatically (does not seem too difficult) http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/. Stable versions can be found in http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/. They do not advertise w/r to that (and maybe it might interest robot lovers, musicians)
Well, you have jealous links to
....facts....
One can know the list of ingredients (ex : I do not like Gnome, but like FC eletronic lab -which have a complicated Gnome: I install FC-LXDE -colleagues prefer XFCE as an KDE/Gnome improvement - to replace Gnome, and FC EL list of *rpms)
For SW, I do not know (not interested in distro(s)hopping: once something works, I stick to it until it breaks); for Gentoo, arm-based cards (Beagle Bone) often use Gentoo -derived/inspired cross-building environments (but RPi use Debian based , a little Fedora or Arch).
87 • You spin me right-round (by jenkiny on 2013-11-13 12:19:13 GMT from France)
Of course there is nothing wrong with making a custom version of whichever distro out there, but as @84 said it should do something more than offer a different DE in order to be listed here.
Most major distros give the option to download directly from their websites different flavours of their distro. examples:
Fedora
https://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options
Mint
http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php
even spin distros do that...
It is just a policy of ubuntu to advertise its product as a stable and standalone all purpose OS. Ubuntu wants to give the image of a one and only PRODUCT that is not customizable (in a way that the user doesn't have to worry about anything...just download, install and let canonical do the rest)...like windows and MacOS does!!!
plus it is a clever way to occupy half the list of distrowatch hit rank with all these spins that most of them are from the ubuntu community and not someones own project.
cause that would be different. making a ubuntu spin focused on a target group (games, science, internet, etc...) yes that would be a reason to list this spin. but simply changing the first letter and the DE that's changing the flavour and should be available from the ubuntu site as it is the same exact product.
from someone who used to love ubuntu and still thinks that is a powerfull and well maintained distro....but now its way out of the linux mentality and scope.
88 • To Jymm re an easy/friendly format app for Point Linux: (by TH on 2013-11-13 12:47:41 GMT from United States)
Thanks for pointing out Gnome Disk Utility. I tried to install it, and part of the install in Point Linux wanted me to re-install Grub! - which makes no sense at all! It offered me a choice of two places to install it, neither of which is clear to me (without research) where to put it. I carefully backed out of the install. I have seen this Grub reinstall screen before. Is it because I am trying to install a Gnome app into a Mate OS??
I have also noticed that in the past, when wanting to install a Gnome app into a Mate OS (example: Totem media player) says in Synaptic "To be uninstalled: Mate Desktop"!! I sure back out real fast out of those also! I am hoping that the Mate developers or Point Linux will add that helpful "Format" into the Properties right-click menu, in future versions, like we have in Gnome 2.x OS distros!
89 • @ 87 Jenkiny from France (by Chanath on 2013-11-13 12:49:16 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"It is just a policy of ubuntu to advertise its product as a stable and standalone all purpose OS."
Now, there is a young chap from France, David Tavares doing re-spins of Ubuntu, which would be hard for other guys to re-spin. Lately David had released Pear 8. I'd like to challenge someone to beat him in re-spinning his OS. His perseverance is very high, and while some wrote bad stuff about his distros, this Pear 8 is a beauty, and also a quite snappy one. I've been watching David spinning distros, while our nice guy Ikey dropped SolusOS.
Have a go and see.
90 • desktop environments (by imageek5 on 2013-11-13 13:16:51 GMT from United States)
I am learning the command line, but frankly it's not particularly useful for getting actual work done, i.e. printing, scanning, creating documents, browsing the web, doing e-mails, using skype (which distro after distro tries to kill by reducing or eliminating compatibility) and so on. Some chess engines do allow me to play via the command line-but I kinda like to have a chessboard displayed in front of me.
Unity, Windows8, Gnome3 are garbage. I have many gripes about Gnome "classic" as well. For example, Unlike previous versions Gnome "classic" won't let me open a file with the program of my choice, and Gnome "classic" doesn't respect changes I make in the defaults list. Sorry, but it's MY computer but I don't have choice to customize it? Huh?
People say the cool thing about Linux is freedom and that you have "choices". Problem is, there really is no choice when your "choices" of de's are limited to a handful of clumsy, awkward, bug filled de's that don't work well and/or are counterintuitive. If I want to get actual work done on a laptop or desktop I need the distro to just get out of my way and follow my instructions. Not the other way around.
Sure, developers can continue to foist junk on users - that's the "freedom" part of it I guess. Users who don't know how to code or don't have time to get their fingernails dirty and simply want their Os's to "just work" are often ridiculed in forums and unable to find the help they want.
If Linux seriously wants to be a factor in the desktop and laptop world, developers need to focus more on functionality, reliability and hardware support. That might include a "standard" desktop environment similar to XP, 7 or even MAC. I know this might be controversial, but XP, 7 and MAC gui's were built that way for a reason, specifically...use by humans!
91 • @90 (by mandog on 2013-11-13 13:40:14 GMT from Peru)
" Gnome "classic" doesn't respect changes I make in the defaults list. Sorry, but it's MY computer but I don't have choice to customize it? Huh?"
Why do people talk such rubbish You can specify to open any file folder with your choice off application or choose a default application to use.
Please stop this childish attitude, Learn how to use Linux then you will know the benefit and power and freedom of using it. Windows/Apple don't give you any choices "Steve Jobs said you will like what we have chosen for you to use," tough if you don't is Ms philosophy.
Linux gives you the freedom to choose what desktop you use and its free!
92 • RE 90 (by dbrion on 2013-11-13 14:24:55 GMT from France)
'That might include a "standard" desktop environment similar to XP, 7 or even MAC.'
gnome and kde were (past tense) superior to XP and 7...
LXDE (maybe XFCE : I did not test it recently) remain (present tense) superior....
Trying to find strings in a directory (basic options of grep), to have quick status of an usb disk (dmesg + sudo fdisk -l) can be easily done with command line... viewing photos is more comfortable with mouse clicks; zooming parts of a photo is very easy with touchscreens (two fingers indicate the diagonal of the rectangular zone to be zoomed, from the initial to the final result), difficult with other input methods (difficult mouse clicks or ImageMagic commands : IMO, ImageMagic is more useful and can lead to automating repetitive tasks). This does not mean touchscreens are superior (if one never zooms photos, or very seldom)....
93 • @87 You spin me right-round (by fernbap on 2013-11-13 15:59:14 GMT from Portugal)
"Most major distros give the option to download directly from their websites different flavours of their distro..."
Riiiight.... Just for the kicks, and since we are on Point Linux week, i downloaded and tried Ferdora MATE spin.
You know, a spin is much more than replacing a DE with a vanilla version of another DE.
For the record, F19 MATE was the slowest of all MATE builds i tried on my hardware. Besides that, it is NOT multimedia ready and has virtually no software that anyone would want to use, like an office, a music player, a video player.
And while Fedora continues to ignore the existance of stuff as simple as a mp3 file, and avi video or the capacity to watch a youtube video, it is pretty much useless. What is the point of the Midori browser, btw?
I know, i could spend the rest of the day making that "spin" usable, but why would I? Why would i have that work if others already did it for me, probably making a better job of it?
No, don't compare your Fedora spins with a distro...
94 • @93 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-13 16:47:39 GMT from United States)
"Just for the kicks, and since we are on Point Linux week, i downloaded and tried Ferdora MATE spin"
I thought Point was Debian based. Did you mean "Mate" spin?
For me certain distros do a DE so good there's no reason to switch. Examples:
Crunchbang - Openbox
Linux MInt - Mate
Bodhi - Enlightenment
SalineOS - XFCE
95 • @94 (by fernbap on 2013-11-13 17:01:08 GMT from Portugal)
My point was just to show the difference between a Fedora Mate spin with Point Linux a disto based on Debian with the MAte desktop. Some people are arguing here that both are just spins, which i obviously don't agree with.
That is also the reason why most distros are based on Ubuntu or Debian. They don't inherit Fedora shortcomings
96 • @95 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-13 17:14:52 GMT from United States)
Got it. I misread the post. I remember when I had F16 Gnome3 it ran pretty well. I went and added Cinnamon, I believe 1.4 at the time and it ran beautifully. I also tried Fedora 17 in KDE and XFCE and it ran well. From what I've read fedora has gone down hill a bit since F16. I'll have to check out F20.
97 • 93, 95 - confusing respect with deficiency (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-13 18:14:28 GMT from United States)
Some areas are picky about legal issues, and distros developed or distributed in such areas rarely include "all codecs" or apps in their base distribution. Many, however, provide documented Short-&-Simple procedures post-install for such accommodation.
In complex systems, "slow" can be a result of many contributing factors. I remember one system taking several minutes to respond to a keystroke - because it was trying to parse surrounding conversation. Turning off voice recognition got it back up to speed.
98 • 79 PiSi - and PiSi Linux (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-13 18:24:14 GMT from United States)
Pisi (Packages Installed Successfully as Intended) alone would make a system worth keeping. The developers of PiSi Linux did not start from scratch, they started with (GPL source code from) the ancestral distro Pardus. Isn't that called "fork"? Or "don't re-invent the wheel"?
99 • Missing the point on software freedom. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-13 18:10:55 GMT from United States)
dbrion said, "Well, people who tell them are free -and freedom of speech still exists in the real world, not in the Ubu world- to tell or to ask."
And you noticed I said this had nothing to do with freedom of speech and I knew someone would try to twist it in that direction. I never said anything about people giving their opinions about a respin, but I'm not talking about the general bull crap of, "Please don't anyone make anymore of those respins. We have too many all ready." Now that gets into the area of nonsense. The little jabs people give distros that they don't like is just immaturity and when it comes to software freedom opinions are irrelevant. As well as it should be. That's what we need to remember is that it doesn't matter if we like someone else's respin or not as long as they like it. We are free to give our opinions about it, but they made it for a reason, and sometimes it's not always clear to us what the reason is. I will always encourage people to make their own respins, if they so desire, and not to listen to the rubbish that comes out of peoples mouths telling them not to. Think about how we all would feel if we suddenly lost that freedom. The world would seem empty indeed.
I don't believe there's anymore to say on this subject.
100 • RE: Fedora Spins & Remixes (by :wq on 2013-11-13 18:54:44 GMT from United States)
The Fedora Project makes a distinction between spins and remixes. "A Remix can be created by anyone with our tools, and labeled with the special "Fedora Remix" mark as set out in that logo's guidelines page. A Spin, on the other hand, contains only 100% Fedora software, not combined with any other third-party software, has been approved by the Fedora Spins_SIG, and granted the "Fedora" name by the Fedora Project Board. Spins are usually carried on our BitTorrent server and official mirrors. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix#Are_Remixes_and_Spins_different.3F A list of remixes can be found at the preceding link, most of which include proprietary software and repos OOTB.
As opposed to remixes, Fedora spins inherit the Fedora Project's stance on the inclusion of proprietary software. "The Fedora Project strongly encourages using free and open source software. Fedora has licensing guidelines that enforce the following requirements: If it is proprietary, it cannot be included in Fedora. (Binary firmware is the only exception to this.) If it is legally encumbered, it cannot be included in Fedora. If it violates United States laws (specifically, Federal or applicable state laws), it cannot be included in Fedora." https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items?rd=ForbiddenItems. This is stance is more purist or risk avoidant than I would like, but it is easy to add third party repos. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Third_party_repositories.
Otherwise, the same considerations apply to the Fedora family tree as apply to the Ubuntu family tree regarding the existence of spins/remixes.
101 • @79 (by :wq on 2013-11-13 20:00:40 GMT from United States)
I've read some grumblings that the development of the original Pardus might have been the victim of the fluctuating winds of governmental bureaucracy. That is to say, I'm not certain that the decision to jettison the previous base was due to technical or feasibility issues. Hence the formation of the Pisi Linux team.
102 • Gnome Disk Utility (by Jymm on 2013-11-13 20:20:22 GMT from United States)
I am not sure what the problems you are having are or how you are trying to install Disk utility. I had no problems. Yes Point will try to update Grub and doing so should not hurt if you only have Point on the computer or Point as the last install, first boot. Use the space bar to check the box for the Grub update. I would suggest you do a apt-get update apt-get upgrade from the command line/terminal to get that out of the way.
You should then be able to install Disk Utility without problems. Do NOT try to remove any Mate applications, that will remove the mate desktop. I ran into that problem with the Mate Screensaver when I wanted to install Xscreen Saver. I just disabled the Mate screensaver and added Xscreen saver to start up applications. I used Synaptic for my Disk Utility install on all three of my computers with no problem. Gnome Disk Utility should not remove any Mate items.
103 • Fedora 20 Beta (by Dave Postles on 2013-11-14 04:26:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Fedora 20 Beta with XFCE seems fine, although it's one of the distros in which you have to edit the freshclam.conf file, it seems (at least, I had to, to get it to load the antivirus signatures with # freshclam. I'm not convinced that clamtk works, but clamav from the cli looks like it does).
104 • @93 Fedora ignores (by Kazlu on 2013-11-14 21:10:30 GMT from France)
"And while Fedora continues to ignore the existance of stuff as simple as a mp3 file, and avi video or the capacity to watch a youtube video, it is pretty much useless."
Except for Flash, it's not a matter of ignoring or not, it's a legal matter. mp3 decoders, DivX decoders and many other decoders of video formats you usually find in an avi or mp4 video file are covered by patents that require to give a royalty to the MPEG consortium for each copy of decoder that is distributed in certain countries, notably USA and Japan. Including those decoders in a GNU/Linux distro and not giving the royalty is illegal. Therefore, to avoid charging the person who downloads/installs the distro or to pay themselves, most distros do not include them. Getting those decoders post-install (easily or not, even when Ubuntu proposes to check a box to install Fluendo's codecs, it's still post-install) is STILL illegal in the concerned countries. The difference is, at that point, it's the user choice and responsibility, not the distro's. That's why Linux Mint has a special version without codecs that can be legally distributed in those countries and a main version including the codecs for the rest of the world. I guess it would be hard to do that for Fedora, which is US-based, without risking a trial from the MPEG consortium. You can't blame Fedora for that. The decoders may be free/libre software, that does not changes the patent problem.
As for Flash, it is indeed a matter of free/libre software or not, thus a philosophical matter. I guess Fedora could provide a backup solution to watch Youtube videos, such as Gnash or Viewtube, but that would be complicated for a lot of users to replace that with Flash in the end.
105 • @104 MP3 and proprietary formats (by Thomas Mueller on 2013-11-15 03:22:58 GMT from United States)
I know some distros that include MP3 players such as mpg321 or mpg123 and mplayer (Slackware for instance). Open-source multimedia players are also included, at least in source form, in FreeBSD ports and NetBSD pkgsrc. Best I can say about legal issues involved is that I am not a lawyer.
I'd like a good way to be able to switch the Flash plugin between Gnash and Adobe Flash player in web browsers such as Firefox. That way, a user could see if something plays in Gnash while keeping Adobe Flash player as fallback.
106 • @105 mp3 and Flash (by Kazlu on 2013-11-15 08:26:43 GMT from France)
I think and I am almost sure that every mp3 decoder included in a GNU/Linux or BSD-based OS is open-source, since such exist and are widely available. So, if even if I do not know the exact legal texts, if there was no legal problem every GNU/Linux or BSD-based system would include an mp3 decoder. I don't know how decoders that are not installed but provided in the official repositories are impacted. About mp3, the patent expires in 2017, so from then mp3 will become free :) I am not sure of the exact terms and I know at least right know the limitations are not the same for mp3 encoders and mp3 decoders. Anyway, 2017 is a turning point for mp3, but other formats are not concerned, such as DivX, H.264, etc.
About Flash, I agree with you, personnally I would like that kind of solution. I would even include Lightspark in the equation. I tried to install Lightspark in Trisquel once but failed to use it properly... I admit I did not look very far. I use Ubuntu most of the time today, Trisquel to experiment how life is without proprietary software. I would like to have a solution which uses Lightspark and if needed fallbacks to Gnash then if needed fallbacks to Flash, I'll do some research when I have the time, but if something already exists that would be nice :) However, I think a beginner would be lost, so that's probably not a very good solution fo ready-to-use beginner-friendly distros such as Ubuntu and Mint.
You might be interested in Viewtube, a user script enabled by Greasemonkey on Firefox that allows to play Youtube's (an a few other site's) videos with multimedia plugins such as mplayer or vlc or even without plugin thanks to HTML5. I use it and fallback to Flash when I have trouble easily by disabling Greasemonkey just for that moment, doing so in just one click.
107 • Freed ... proprietary (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-15 11:36:16 GMT from United States)
I have yet to see a distro provide fine-grained tools for micro-managing proprietary software, or a way to restrict it to fallback priority, yet these would seem intuitively preferable for groups who claim to promote freed'em.
108 • Jesse Smith's hardware (by Pearson on 2013-11-15 22:14:49 GMT from United States)
I emailed Jessee, to suggest that he include a link to a page describing his hardware setup. I couldn't tell whether he will do that, but he did send me what I believe is the output of 'lshw -vvv'. Since it's pretty big, I put it onto hatebin (*not* pastebin -- my work blockes it).
http://hastebin.com/raw/momudarahe
I hope this helps everyone.
109 • #91's ignorance (by imageek5 on 2013-11-16 04:06:18 GMT from Mexico)
Gnome Classic does not let you specify which program to use to open a particular file, the right click command line option that was available in previous versions has been removed.
Gnome Classic/Wheezy iteration right click will show you a list of a few programs but if the one you want isn't listed you are toast.
Linux people talk about "choice" but being forced to open a .pdf file with any one of a handful inferior imitation adobe readers is hardly "choice."
110 • PDF (Portable Document Format) readers (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-16 06:51:19 GMT from United States)
Actually, I've seen at least two PDF readers that perform far better than proprietary ( Adobe® Reader®) versions.
111 • Linux Mint 16 Rc, but Trusty (by Chanath on 2013-11-16 13:29:00 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Downloaded Linux Mint 16 RC to look at, and feel the Cinnamon 2.0. I usually don't stay with Linux Mint, always returning to Ubuntu. Anyway, being the experimenting guy, I changed the repos to Trusty Tahr and installed the TT base in it. Mind you, the Mint 16 release is still RC, but I'd be using, say Mint 17.
If the Mint guys don't change Petra repos, or even if they change it, my re-spin won't break at all. I'd keep on updating and upgrading the TT base, and by the time TT would be released, I'd have a Linux Mint 17 ready with the TT base. Sometime after the TT would be released, the next Mint repo would come about directing to the next Mint 17. All I have to do is to change the Petra repos to the next one.
I'd give you guys feedback from this experiment, maybe on Monday in the next DW. Right now for few hours, my "Mint 17" re-spin is working quite well.
112 • 109 1's ignorance (by mandog on 2013-11-16 18:12:21 GMT from Peru)
I don't know what sort of half baked distro you are using or you are just spreading FUD> Gnome 3.10.1 running on top of archlinux in normal or classic mode you can choose any application you desire to open any file simply right click on the file click open with choose any thing thats appropriate to open the file type. now that's not hard unless you want to open a pdf with a media player or the like.
113 • Q19 Re: Jesse's Hardware (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-16 23:36:54 GMT from United States)
So what he has is one of these HP desktops. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883256196 How hard would it have been to post a link to that or to create a page with the system specs for the systems he uses for reviews? It wouldn't have taken more than a minute to two and would have elimination all of this.
I wonder why it is that he has been so secretive about it. At least now we have some baseline information to reference when he runs into trouble during his reviews, and let's be honest here, that tends to be the norm. Add his system specs his adamant refusal to install any additional drivers and it becomes clear why his actions (or in-actions) in so many reviews give a false impression that there is something wrong with a distro when it is evident that quite often it is a PEBCAK error.
114 • Linux Mint 16RC with the TT base feedback (by Chanath on 2013-11-17 10:15:46 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Installed the Linux kernel 3.12.0-031200-generic on my -re-spin of Linux Mint 16 RC with the TT base. Works superbly. All apps respond snappily. Quite a nice Mint release and quite an interesting experiment.
115 • The REAL FUD! (by Jordan on 2013-11-17 21:29:22 GMT from United States)
Fedora! Ubuntu! Debian!
... a bit of levity for my friends at DW. I'm running Porteus on a big flash drive and love it. But I'll tell you, the Porteus roots are Slackware, although F.U.D. influences are there as plain as the Gnome/Mate, etc on its face(s).
It's all good F.U.D. Great choices abound, even though we do see Debian forks and reworks all up and down that "top 100" hit list on the front page of this great site.
116 • @ 115 • The REAL FUD! Jordan (by Chanath on 2013-11-18 03:06:56 GMT from Sri Lanka)
At this moment, Jordan, it is Ubuntu and its clones, derivatives are the majority in the Linux world. Some people, who had never heard of Linux, had heard of Ubuntu. Practically all the computer shops here sell Ubuntu laptops and and also Zorin laptops. In Poland or Russia, it is quite normal to see Ubuntu laptops in the computer shops, very large shops, mind you.
You see that Linux Mint tops the charts in DW, but it is still a clone/fork of Ubuntu. Mint 16RC's new Cinnamon 2.0 is very nice. So, I installed it in a spare partition, and upgraded it from Saucy base to Trusty base, re-spinning it to a testing ground. And, also installed the new Linux kernel 3.12.
No hitches, no hiccups, nothing to complain about. I also have Trusty, an dit doesn't give me any hitches too.
By the way, I know Porteus is very good, but if I want to carry a distro in a USB disk, I'd always opt for Puppy. Any work you do won't be lost, as they can be saved to the same USB stick.
Number of Comments: 116
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