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1 • Debian - Xfce (by Sondar on 2013-11-11 09:13:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
Best news since sliced bread! LXDE has been touted as the lean-mean machine a lot recently, but I have not found it to be a serious competitor. It is slower and more bloated, lacking the ease and intuitiveness of Xfce, being less well-developed and having much less flexibility and options for customising. A desktop should be a means to an end. Personally I have no truck with KDE and Gnome which try hard to be prima donnae themselves, getting in the way of productivity. Bound to be those who disagree, but I speak as an inveterate distro-hopper.
2 • Pointlinux (by anon_proxy on 2013-11-11 09:32:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried pointlinux on my aging amd64 desktop. It was all quick and I found only one problem. The cpu temp was showing double the temperature than other distros. This was in mate. I looked up what the problem could be. It turns out from a mint forum that the culprit could be marco. I then swapped desktop and looked at the temp again. The temperature had reduced but was still roughly 8 degrees hotter than other distros. I reported it on their forum but whoever replied could not or would not understand what I was going on about. So now I dont use it and is first in line to be replaced.
3 • Point Linux (by rastercaster on 2013-11-11 10:20:12 GMT from United States)
Jesse, I love your reviews, but can you really recommend a distro that wouldn't even boot after installation?
4 • Debian and Xfce (by Michael on 2013-11-11 10:31:52 GMT from Germany)
If XFCE would become the default option in Debian, I would be pleased. Less bloated, yet fully functional, intuitive and stable. Would be a good choice that won't distrurb anyone, I guess.
5 • Point Linux (by kc1di on 2013-11-11 10:51:42 GMT from United States)
Thanks Jesse for another fine review. My experience with Point basically mirrored yours, with the exception that it ran on my hardware fine. I also like the uncluttered feel and snappiness of this one.
6 • Debian and XFCE (by kc1di on 2013-11-11 10:53:39 GMT from United States)
I believe that a move to xfce DE on Debian stable would be a good move on their part and more in keeping with there stable environment. as XFCE development seem like a more stable one than Gnome3.
7 • xfce (by greg on 2013-11-11 11:37:26 GMT from Slovenia)
Doesn't xfce use the old gtk libraries ? could that be an issue since no one is developing those?
Anyway - i like XFCE. it really is intuitive. However mostly i use KDE which i believe is a modern desktop. sure, it could have a few features less (the ones that draw CPU power unnecessarily or the ones almost no one uses - activities...) but there are so many good ones.
as for point linux - It's a pitty we don't see these kind of efforts in daddy distro. Debian that works out of the box and configures itself (no tinkering with config files please), is average user friendly etc. could be a win. but then there is Ubuntu that sort of does just that... but it also brings a bit of bloat with it.
8 • rpm.org & RPM 5 (by :wq on 2013-11-11 12:27:59 GMT from United States)
The Mageia Blog interview with Bruno Cornec leads me to ask what are the technical differences between rpm.org's RPM (http://rpm.org/releases/) and RPM 5 (http://rpm5.org/files//rpm/) as they presently exist? I've seen comparisons on the Web (ex. http://lwn.net/Articles/441085/), but they are dated.
9 • PisiLinux (by Mark on 2013-11-11 12:37:46 GMT from United States)
I've followed Pisi development since it started about a year ago. As far as I know it never faced closure. Aside from a troll pretending to represent the PisiLinux development team suggesting that, it has been developed and supported continuously since it's inception.
10 • Point Linux - no formatting option (by TH on 2013-11-11 12:51:35 GMT from United States)
I like Point Linux. It has simplified menus and not too much in any one menu. One can actually refind something one stumbled onto before! The one oddity is that it doesn't seem to be a way to format any disk or stickdrive! Perhaps there is a way using Terminal (?), but that would mean the casual user would have to be very, very careful to not format the wrong drive. Why isn't there a simple GUI way to format a stick drive?!
11 • Centrych OS (by Carlos Felipe on 2013-11-11 12:55:15 GMT from Brazil)
I liked Centrych OS, a beautiful and complete XFCE LTS distro, but I think the trademark and logo weak or non-commercial
12 • Point Linux (by Walter on 2013-11-11 13:19:05 GMT from Canada)
@10: May I point you to System -> Administration -> GParted? It's there out of the box, unlike Ubuntu, and you can format drives/sticks/SD cards 'til you're blue in the face with it. :)
13 • Point Linux part 2 (by Walter on 2013-11-11 13:28:24 GMT from Canada)
I installed Point this morning, and was glad to see Mate as the default desktop manager. It's one less thing I had to do. :)
While the review says it's based on Debian 7 "Wheezy", from what I see, it looks like a somewhat reworked Ubuntu. I'm not complaining about it, though. It didn't look much like a typical Debian-proper installation once it was on the hard drive. Time to mess with it some until openSUSE 13.1 comes out next week.
14 • Debian with Xfce (by r on 2013-11-11 13:46:43 GMT from Australia)
Debian with Xfce, yes please.
15 • Speaking of xfce.. (by brad on 2013-11-11 14:11:39 GMT from United States)
I think XFCE is amazing.. I have Arch w/ xfce and its slick! With Debians reputation of being rock solid.. great combo!
16 • Response To Formatting In Point Linux (Reply To TH In The U.S.) (by sasdthoh on 2013-11-11 14:29:28 GMT from United States)
The simple way to solve your formatting problem is to download and install GParted.
It will partition/format everything on the planet, especially USB attached flash, stick, and hard drives. (Cheers!)
17 • Walter Beat Me To It! (by sasdthoh on 2013-11-11 14:36:32 GMT from United States)
Sorry Walter ..... I started reading from the bottom when I posted my reply to TH and then discovered you had beat me to the punch.
You are absolutely correct. GParted is a top ten application choice for ALL Linux users, even the less experienced because eventually they will learn enough to realize they will need this awesome tool.
Best Wishes To All!
18 • GParted (by Walter on 2013-11-11 14:48:44 GMT from Canada)
sasdthoh: I can't be without it since I do like to look at different distros and need a way to easily reformat USB sticks. If it's not there, it's installed quickly, just like wget is.
19 • Debian xfce (by rop75 on 2013-11-11 14:50:22 GMT from Spain)
I regret to tell all the xfce supporters, that Debian developers said exactly the same in August 2012 (they said that xfce should be the default environment for "the next" debian stable -aka wheezy), and as most of you know Debian team eventually selected GNOME as the default desktop environment for wheezy
http://http://www.muktware.com/2012/08/debian-wheezy-may-ship-with-xfce-as-the-default-desktop-environment/2985
20 • 32bit vw 64bit (by VW72 on 2013-11-11 15:06:59 GMT from United States)
Usually, the rule of thumb for the desktop is 64 bit Linux on modern 64bit machines and 32bit on 32bit machines with two exceptions.
1st if the 64bit machine is somehow constrained (low memory, for example), then even if it is 64bit, 32bit may make more sense.
2nd, and related, if one is planning on regularly running some heavy 32bit apps such as Wine or Skype, you are going to have 32bit libs installed to support those apps anyway. If storage is a problem this will increase that limited resource and if ram is in short supply, you will have to deal with both versions of libraries that perform the same functionality.
However, if the computer is not somehow constrained or use of 32bit apps is only occasional, if at all, then the general rule would normally apply.
21 • Debian + XFCE? no thanks (by carlo on 2013-11-11 15:31:39 GMT from Italy)
Why are people in the Linux world so obsessed with minimalism? With frugal desktops?
I mean XFCE is good OK, as is Razor-QT, LXDE etc etc....
But in my humble opinion these desktops environments should only be meant for making Linux distributions work on outdated hardware.
And at least XFCE started with that goal. Maybe they switched target some releases ago, but frankly speaking I don't see XFCE on the same level as GNOME or KDE in terms of coverage of system configurations and system utilities, let alone on the common apps (mail reader, bittorrent client, messanger, media player, cd burner, etc etc).
and KDE and GNOME, at least, try (and mostly fail) to have some consistency. The "lightweight" desktops do not....
My2c
22 • Re: 21 (by Vukota on 2013-11-11 16:00:38 GMT from United States)
I don't know about you, but no matter how fast & juicy computer I have, the snappier (less resource hungry) desktop is, the better my (user) experience is. Yes, I will prefer XFCE, LXDE, Razor-QT, etc. as long as they don't make me change the way I use the desktop and provide common functionality I need/use from the DE, (and available applications).
For the matter of XFCE, I haven't seen that much differences between it and GNOME from user perspective (both can be made to look/function in a very similar way). Other question is why distributions are not paying more attention to enable all the configuration hooks/tools/settings for properly configuring these other DEs.
Please check distributions that are optimized for these DEs, before mentioning "coverage of system configurations and system utilities".
23 • Debian XFCE (by tyhee88 on 2013-11-11 16:03:40 GMT from Canada)
Given that on those occasions I've installed Debian in the last few years it's always been with an XFCE desktop, making it the default de would be a step up in my view, as well as one step I no longer need to follow.
XFCE is very customizable while still being fairly light on resources. When Wheezy shipped with Gnome as the default desktop it was a great disappointment and a considerable puzzle to me.
bc
24 • @21 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-11 16:31:06 GMT from United States)
"Why are people in the Linux world so obsessed with minimalism? With frugal desktops?"
And by the way, you left out the best minimal DE - Openbox.
For me there's more than one reason:
1. Older hardware - This one being the biggest reason of course. I have an older laptop that can only handle 2GB max RAM and I run Crunchbang on it with an Openbox DE. It runs just as fast as my other laptop running LInux MInt with the MATE DE and 8GB of RAM.
2. Less resources - My Desktop also has Crunchbang with Openbox. I need to run Windows for certain things so that box has 8GB of RAM and I give 3GB to the Windows 7 Virtualbox and it runs just as fast as a regular Windows machine.
3. Virtualbox - The lighter, minimal DE's run much better in Virtualbox machines and allow me to use less RAM when running them.
25 • Re: 22 (by carlo on 2013-11-11 16:41:53 GMT from Italy)
look you're missing the point, please read better. Yes, I can borrow apps from other DEs but that doesn't make them consistent and integrated with my DE.
At least this is how I felt whenever I siwtched to try Xfce et al.
BTW I'm running Debian, and if Debian is not optimized for these DEs I don't know what major distro would. and no I'm not going to install niche distros that disappear from the earth after some months, thanks.
Btw, I'm been running GNOME3 on home laptop for 7 years (Core Duo, 2 Gigs of RAM) and only recently a Virtualbox VM with KDE 3.10 at work (Core i5, 4 Gb RAM), both Debian unstable.
KDE in the VM is incredibly fast and responsive (I was shoked to notice that when I first ran it. I haven't really used it lots of times in the last 10 years). GNOME shows its wheigth of course but the HW I run it is a little outdated. anyway I love GNOME3 experience and I believe no other desktops have the same consistency.
26 • Xfce (by David McCann on 2013-11-11 17:41:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
@7. Yes, Xfce is based on GTK2, but so are a lot of other things. Xfce actually predates GTK1: if they survived switching to GTK, they can surely convert to a new version of it.
@21. Xfce was not designed to be lightweight. It was not designed to be anything other than the first desktop for Linux, for those who envied the commercial CDE. If it seems light, that's because the developers have always set their faces against childish eye-candy and pointless bloat.
27 • Anything but Gnome 3 (by M.Z. on 2013-11-11 17:48:14 GMT from United States)
I think the general consensus is that Gnome 3 completely jumped the shark, and in my experience it no longer offers a default user interface that is inviting to newbies. Frankly I don't see why Debian or any other big general purpose distro would want to subject users to Gnome 3 by default. If your going for a specialist distro the new Gnome might be perfect some some particular sub set of users that you're targeting, but as a general desktop Gnome 3 is garbage. Hopefully the download numbers for the new default desktop on Debian have convinced the team to really switch to something else this time. I know I went straight to the KDE version when I wanted the latest Debian, but some potential headaches can be avoided if a better default is chosen.
28 • Debian and XFCE (by Darren Hale on 2013-11-11 17:48:28 GMT from New Zealand)
I think Debian is totally right to go with XFCE. I installed Wheezy recently and installed icewm and wanted GDM3 login manager and in the past all it would do is install GDM but instead it installed the whole Gnome 3 desktop as well which was shocking.
XFCE is far lighter. To all the moaners take a look at what Spatry did with XFCE to bling it up - if you want the candy do the work.
Debian has always been like Slackware and provided a no thrills experience - just what you need so I welcome the move. Also get rid of Pulseaudio and have it as an option it causes more problems than its worth on my machine.
29 • Debian (by César on 2013-11-11 18:15:17 GMT from Chile)
Hello!!!
It's true, Debian works fine with XFCE, but is better with Mate Desktop (better than Gnome 3 or Cinnamon). The change in Gnome 3 is too radical, heavy, lack of features, etc., not good, bad.
In other way, Mate is almost the same of Gnome 2, the names changes, the aplications is the same, but the performance when install Compiz is not good, the CPU % is "gone to the stars", if you install Compiz because Mate effects is very basic (when compares Mate Marco with Compiz). Is for that i use Gnome 10.04 LTS Server with Gnome 2.** with Compiz 100% (for a while), but the last update of the kernel increments the usage of memory (800 MB is too much, really?).
Debian is in the right way, not "on the edge", not too old.
Maybe i test Slackware in the next weeks, but the Epson XP-201 refuses to works (great difference between Debian based), we search any solution.
Greetings from Santiago de Chile.
P.D.: Sorry for my english, spanish is my "lingua mater".
30 • Point Linux (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 18:44:44 GMT from Portugal)
Jesse, perhaps it is time for you to do a thorough check on your firmware, or even on your motherboard.
My working computer is older than yours, and performs better. (AMD Athlon 64 3200+, ati 4xxx series, 2GB RAM) and runs most linux distros with no problem at all, except some sluggishness on Gnome 3 based DEs (including Unity and Cinnamon), which start to be not so much snappy (but doesn't even compare with the slugginess of Win7 on this same machine).
According to my own experience, you are experiencing too much issues with linux distros, issues that i never experienced.
Also, with compiz and emerald installed, my CPU load is around 7%.
Perhaps it is time you seriously consider using another machine for your distro tests?
31 • MATE and Compiz (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 18:47:55 GMT from Portugal)
As advertized in the Point Linux website, MATE 1.6 doesn't work well with compiz, while 1.4 (which is used) works perfectly, and so people are advised not to use compiz if they want to upgrade MATE to 1.6
32 • Slackware 14.1 (by John on 2013-11-11 19:19:07 GMT from United States)
Meanwhile, Slackware 14.1, ftw. Still Gnome-free. Another fine solid and stable release, with no BS.
33 • DE's are just annoying (by fabio on 2013-11-11 19:33:50 GMT from United States)
I believe there's a good reason why Linux never had nor will have a default DE, and the reason for me is that a DE is not really necessary to run linux. In fact, many use Openbox, and love it.
I will actually go further and say that a DE is an obstacle to learn and use linux, as DE's and GUI's hide away the command line commands whose understanding, as we all know, is of absolute importance for any linux user and administrator, whether they like it or not :-P. So my suggestion to novice users who would like to learn linux is to use openbox (crunchbang linux is my favorite).
The more the user learns the command line, the more she realizes that big DE's are not required. I'm sure if we did a survey, we would find out that users with high knowledge of the linux system use lighter DE's, while novice users prefer KDE, GNOME, mate and cinnamon.
So, depending on the goal, KDE/GNOME might be a better solution than XFCE/openbox and viceversa.
By the way, I'm very curious to test x9wm Linux!!
34 • kokoska (by kokoska on 2013-11-11 19:58:51 GMT from Bosnia and Herzegovina)
please stop making more ubuntu spins
thanks
35 • DE's and the command line (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-11 20:02:25 GMT from United States)
@33,
You are correct. The command line is essential in learning the inner workings of Linux, but a desktop environment is really needed for general use. I also agree that the more you use a Linux distro that you learn to do more from the command line. I've used computers since the late 70's and Linux for the last 10 years. I like my DE but I also like my command line. For troubleshooting you can't beat the command line. All in all I believe it's better then the CP/M days, in some ways. :)
36 • Slackware 14.1 (by joe f. on 2013-11-11 20:04:18 GMT from United States)
I almost hesitate to ask for a review of the newest Slackware. I'd love to see it, but it's so steady it's boring. The same basic Slackware software load, the same simplicity and the same stability. There are internal changes, things are configured better, but the feel of the system is exactly the same. Great for users, boring for reviewers.
One difference, though, I followed alienbob's guide and got Netflix working on 14.1. Very nice to be able to watch Netflix at my desk.
37 • Why? (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-11 20:06:23 GMT from United States)
@34,
I know it seems like a lot of Ubuntu spins, and you are right, but that is the beauty of the Linux ecosystem. Software that is free to change and use as you please. With that kind of freedom you get a lot of spins of everything. All in all it's better to have that freedom even if you do get a lot of Ubuntu respins.
38 • MATE and Compiz (by Bill on 2013-11-11 20:35:03 GMT from United States)
You may notice that you have high CPU useage in MATE when running Compiz:
There is a fix which solved this for me. In a terminal type “mateconf-editor” (no quotes) When the editor opens: Go to /desktop/mate/session/required_components/windowmanager and replace marco with compiz. That's it.
Before this fix my cpu's were running from 27% to 39%, but after this fix there was no more problem at all.
See here in Mint 13: I am running Mate 1.6 and everything compiz has to offer, wobbly windows, cube, fire, emerald theme and so on. Conky shows clearly that my 4 cpu's are only using 6%, 1%, 13% and 0%, and I only have 3 gigs of RAM.
Picture: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/FS/M.aspx?v=8970668f5b9aa6a5a99e
And see here in Point Linux, when I am not playing around with the fire effects my cpu's are at 2%, 5%, 1%, and 2%.
Picture: https://backup.filesanywhere.com/FS/M.aspx?v=8970648c5e939f77a296
Mate 1.6 and compiz work just fine together for me on my Quad Core
machine. YMMV
39 • Move on, Why try to live in the Past? (by Chris Nash on 2013-11-11 21:10:46 GMT from United States)
I don't believe this to be a general consensus - Gnome 3 completely jumped the shark, and in my experience it no longer offers a default user interface that is inviting to newbies.
That's opinion much like my opinion. Just because more aren't defending what they use to counter needless, bloated complaining, that doesn't mean it's an actual example of Trash. Maybe it's because many of them are just using their software rather than worrying about how others bitch about it.
40 • @38, 39 (by fernbap on 2013-11-11 21:19:19 GMT from Portugal)
@38 Nice to know that. Will try it on Mint MATE, still have it installed. Never managed to make compiz and emerald run well there, in spite of using fusion-icon...
@39
It is very clear for me: i see absolutely no reason to use Gnome 3 except for those few that actually like what Gnome 3 is. Anyway, it is not a serious alternative to most of us.
Sticking to the KISS principle "if it's working, don't fix it", the effort used by developing that lemon should have been better used on improving and rewriting Gnome 2.
41 • Point Linux (by Jymm on 2013-11-11 21:19:57 GMT from United States)
I have been using Point Linux for a bit over a month, when I saw SolusOS had no direction. I have it on a HP laptop, HP tower and old 2001 Milwaukee tower. I had no installation problems. No CPU usage or temp problems. A few things i love about it. The traditional Mate desktop. It's speed. I found it faster than Puppy on that old computer.
I love the fact it has little software on installation. I added Clementine for a music player. I use different software on my laptop and tower from the old Milwaukee PC, which I keep very light programs on. I only removed one program I did not want after installation on all three computers. That is great, I wish more distros would quit trying to give me the full load. Maybe just include a list of recommend software.
Synaptic if fine if you have used Linux for a while and know the software, or the command line which is faster. If not, I can see where you might want something that suggested more software. As for Compiz, you can install it, but I don't need, cubes, wobbles or any other eye candy. I find Point what Linux should be, you customize it to what you want and need.
42 • Debian default desktop (by jymm on 2013-11-11 21:27:39 GMT from United States)
Anything but Gnome 3. I agree with that. It is unusable. I would actually vote for Mate after using all the desktops.
43 • @30 Jesse's System (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-11 21:38:24 GMT from United States)
I totally agree. He has way too many problems with distros. Of course, since he refuses to post more specific system specs it's impossible for anyone to judge anything from his reviews (and yes I'm back at this as it continues to be relevant).
44 • Default desktop for Debian (by Andrew Perkins on 2013-11-11 22:59:45 GMT from Canada)
I tried GNOME 3 recently but was completely disgusted. My attempts at using KDE 4 or Unity ended up in disasters. I settled for Cinnamon. However, having used Xubuntu last year, I think that XFCE is OK as a desktop environment.
My main gripe with the so-called modern environments like GNOME is that they can be very frustrating. They look like toys designed to induce a psychedelic experience (a.k.a an acid trip).
45 • Point linux formatting - followup (by TH on 2013-11-11 23:06:11 GMT from United States)
re Point Linux and formatting drives followup
Thank you all for pointing out Gparted. Yes, I know about it, but use it only for installing a new distro to a partition or to resize a partition. And you have to know what you are doing so that you don't format the wrong drive. What I do miss in Point Linux (that Ubuntu 10.04 and Solus 1.3 have) is: when one right-clicks on the icon of a hard disk or a stick drive, a menu opens up and one of the choices in the menu is "Format". There is no confusion what drive will be formatted, it just does it safely. To me, using Gparted to format a stick drive is like using an elephant gun to shoot a rabbit.
46 • Re : Improving desktop performance post-upgrade (by Linux411 on 2013-11-12 00:03:49 GMT from United States)
I have installed Slackware both 32bit and 64bit. The funny thing is that Gslapt ran incredibly faster with 64bit versus 32bit, but I never noticed a marked difference on other programs. Unfortunately, I like to play World of Warcraft and WINE on a 64bit runs terrible with the lib32 inclusion. While on 32bit, I get no lag and about 60fps depending on what is displaying.
Which actually brings me to another question I have not been able to find an answer : Will there be a 64bit WINE?
47 • Debian and xfce (by gee7 on 2013-11-12 00:52:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re Debian and xfce, it seems the right move to me and being default, even if for a limited time, will mean more of those clever and great Debian minds are concentrated on making improvements and generally debugging. To right click on the desktop icon to select "format" is an improvement that various DEs need, for example, another being a "Safely Remove Drive" function rather than "Eject" which has caused problems and loss of data for me in xfce.
48 • Pointlinux and dvd playback (by gee7 on 2013-11-12 00:59:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Two very interesting articles this week, on Pointlinux and Pisi-Linux, thank you Jesse and team.
A note for the unwary and not so experienced Linux users: I just downloaded Pointlinux and found it easy and quick to install in a multi-boot system but please note that VLC is unable to play your dvds because libdvdcss is not included by default and is not to be found in the Synaptic Package Manager's repositories.
If you open a terminal and type 'sudo su' followed by 'passwd' you can then set a password to become root user and make changes as root (This is my way of working, others will use sudo).
Once root, type (without the #):
# nano /etc/apt/sources.list
use the down arrow key to reach the end of the list and then add the following 2 lines:
deb http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/stable/ /
deb-src http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/stable/ /
and use the Ctrl and x keys to close the file, after answering "y" to save the file.
Then in the terminal type the following commands@
# wget -O - http://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/videolan-apt.asc|sudo apt-key add -
# apt-get install libdvdcss2
and you should then be able to play dvds.
On first impressions. Pointlinux looks good and feels comfortable, next I will see if my old Epson printer works out of the box.
Best wishes all.
49 • Debian and xfce (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 01:00:08 GMT from Portugal)
Anything but Gnome 3, of course!
But it would make a lot more sense to chose MATE. Between the 2, MATE is certainly better.
50 • Point linux formatting - followup (by TH0 (by Jymm on 2013-11-12 01:08:14 GMT from United States)
I understand your concerns. I also installed gnome disk utility. I think you will find that is what you want for quick formatting and no mistakes.
51 • #33 and #36 - DEs are bloat; Slackware 14.1 (by John on 2013-11-12 01:52:49 GMT from United States)
@33 - Agreed, DEs are mostly unnecessary bloat. Everyone would do well to go even one better than a WM such as Openbox, and go pure cli or /dev/fb0 for at least a month, to gain proficiency with the command line. Short of that, perhaps a nice tiling WM such as dwm, i3, or qtile. Having said this, I actually like Xfce, but have no use for Gnome or KDE.
@36 - Absolutely. The thing with distros like Slackware, Gentoo, or Arch, is that reviewers can't just throw in a live CD/DVD and go to town, they have to WORK for it ;-) Upgraded my Slackware installations from 14.0 to 14.1, everything is painless, uneventful, and stable. Glad to see tmux included by default, too, this time; won't have to go grab the SlackBuild!
52 • On Linus's bug fixes, etc. (by naryfa on 2013-11-12 02:15:09 GMT from United States)
YES, for goodness' sake YES! Finally, I've been waiting for this every since I started using Linux. PLEASE DO IT! Stability and fixes are the key.
If Linux is supposed to take a good stand, it has to stand on a hard foundation. Stability and bug fixes are just that!
I would certainly give up the idea of constantly seeing new features to experience a kernel release that is really well done.
53 • Point Linux 2.2 (by Pauli on 2013-11-12 03:19:05 GMT from United States)
From the review: "Right away I ran into a problem with Point Linux, namely the distribution would not boot on my physical hardware..." and concluding with: "Point Linux provided a top-notch experience with its performance, style, installer and... The distribution is calm, fast, stable, clean and pleasantly uncomplicated."
What are you talking about? If a distro will not boot, even after tinkering with it... then how could you POSSIBLY be making the comments that you did... and reaching the conclusion that you came to?
Keep on smokin' it, Jesse!
54 • Pisi (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 03:59:52 GMT from United States)
I downloaded the RC from Pisi LInux last week and have been playing with it in VBox and really like it. It's a bit bloated (11GB) but runs pretty smooth.
55 • X factor (by :wq on 2013-11-12 06:01:26 GMT from United States)
I am glad Debian (at least for now) will default to Xfce, though there was recently an issue in sid (and maybe testing, I wasn't using testing) which resulted in GNOME 3 being installed in addition to Xfce due to recommends run amok (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=714803, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=718855). I haven't reinstalled since to check (I've been busy distro hopping), but I hope selecting an Xfce install will not result in GNOME Control Center being installed either. That really isn't ideal. It had been my hope that Red Hat would support Xfce in RHEL 7 (and contribute any assistance to the Xfce project to make this feasible), but it appears Xfce will still be relegated to EPEL (https://access.redhat.com/site/solutions/56723). For me, GNOME 3, with or without extensions, doesn't compliment my workflow quite as well for a workstation/desktop (RHEL isn't just used for headless servers). MATE in Debian is still a work in progress (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=708385), so there is almost no chance it would be considered to become the default for Jessie. And while GNOME 2 is well established, I would like to see the MATE project exist for a little bit longer before becoming the default DE for a major distribution. Also, Xfce is my preference, regardless of MATE's status.
I wish pekwm would get more notice.
56 • Testing distros on "older" hardware (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 06:08:13 GMT from United States)
I recently met a pre-2008 eMachine with an AMD 64-bit CPU and onboard ATI Radeon GPU on which few distros boot well without the Linux boot parameter radeon.modeset=0 to avoid a blank screen. I am unaware of any utility for determining appropriate boot parameters for specified hardware. Perhaps Jesse simply allows for this lack in his evaluation?
57 • On Point (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 06:39:46 GMT from United States)
I saw a few traces of Ubuntu (and am too noob to understand why a SuperUser cannot recklessly adjust every update setting), but booting Point Linux (v2.2 Mate amd64) as an "unlisted" distro from one of my YUMI sticks was perhaps too smooth an experience. Sigh. Solyd indeed. Do not confuse with Progress Linux ... hey, wait ... centric convergence?
58 • Jesse's video (by jon on 2013-11-12 06:52:19 GMT from United States)
@43 Jesse posted in comment #25 of last week's issue:
Radeon HD 6410D
59 • @39 • Move on, Why try to live in the Past? Chris Nash (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 07:32:59 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Exactly!
Why don't we move on?! We are buying the new mobile, but want to keep Linux distros in the past, sort of in the Windows 98 era.
I am using Ubuntu TT 14.04, and also have installed Gnome shell. Not only that, I've installed Unity8, which is still in testing, but works pretty well. Some actions don't work yet, but those that work, work very well. Its easier to get into files, open documents, web pages, run an app. At this moment, it is sort of an overlay. It doesn't show in the Dash, but starts from the Terminal.
Ubuntu has already testing a new web browser, which is also quite fast, faster than Chromium or Firefox. Well, things are getting on, moving forward. All those, who don't hate Ubuntu for being Ubuntu, should have a try.
Yes, move on, why try to live in the Past?!
60 • Moving on (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 07:58:18 GMT from Portugal)
I always considered a sound idea trying to figure out wether an advertised step forward is a isnt in fact a step back.
Also, being more modern doesnt necessarily mean being better in any way. It has to actually be better to justify the move forward.Gnome 3 and Unity are obviously directed to the touch screen environment, and may even become good at it, but are NOT good desktops for PCs still relying on keyboard and mouse. Replacing the most used PC de by a touch screen DE is not a step forward a step forward for the PC users.
I'm trying not to assume that some people want something only because it looks modern, regardless of it being good or bad.
I'm sorry, but i have no actual evidence that Gnome 3 is any step forward, special for PCs.
61 • @59 Re: Why don't we move on?! (by :wq on 2013-11-12 08:25:24 GMT from United States)
Old paradigms don't die simply because new paradigms are born. Why do we still have gaming consoles when portable gaming devices have been around for decades? I don't consider it living in the past, as the one currently doesn't render the features of the other redundant. Perhaps mobile and touch device-inspired desktop environments will best fulfill all my use needs sometime in the future, but presently they still fall short. I have no problem with adapting to a newer mouse trap when it better suits a task at hand, but I don't like having a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none convergence thrust upon me if the old mousetrap is more task-appropriate for a given situation. I do not want the Unity shell or GNOME 3 DE to whither and die, I'm sure they have their fans and place in this world, but I don't want them to unmeritoriously crowd out other setups either.
62 • @ 61 Moving on (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 08:53:35 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Gnome developers dropped Gnome 2, and that's their freedom. They found, they cannot go on with Gnome 2, so went away from it. Unity started with lot of hiccups, but it was new, something no one had tried. There was lot of opposition from non-developers, but Unity went forward and we have now testing Unity8.
Clem of Linux Mint went ballistic against Unity--he wrote against--and made Cinnamon, and that was new, meaning going forward. Cinnamon had hiccups, but today it doesn't even use Gnome 3 shell.
Some guys started Mate, trying to keep the former Gnome 2 alive. Okay, no problem there, but only that's trying hard to keep the status quo.
KDE came out with Plasma, and had hiccups, but doing quite well now. Some distros use only KDE 4. We got RazorQt, which has its own forward movement.
So, everyone has something for themselves. There's nothing to complain about. And, at this moment, only Ubuntu is moving forward to make a DE or overlay or what-you-see.
Gnome 3 is different, Unity is different and Unity8 is quite different from the rest. Of course, we have Android Jelly Bean, which is also quite different from other Linux distros. I have an old netbook that runs entirely on Android Jelly Bean. Quite an experience.
If we want the old fashioned Windows 98, XP look, there are enough DEs in Linux for that, so we can use them, but without complaining that the others are moving forward. I notice lot of such whining here. I say, use what you like, as there is Linux freedom, but let the others move forward. Live and let live!
I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it. To taste the bacon, you have to eat it, right?
63 • @62 (by :wq on 2013-11-12 09:07:38 GMT from United States)
"I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it."
If such a comment was made above, I must have glossed over it. I fully agree that a person can't know the quality of something without using it. I think DistroWatch lends itself to encourage people to test drive new distribution and technology releases.
64 • CLI (by greg on 2013-11-12 09:42:31 GMT from Slovenia)
so everything in CLI was suggestion? no mouse, right? editing photos, videos, music, visiting social sites, transfering files pictures to and from online storages, previewing them, cad/cam designs... all via cli? i am sure it could be done. will it be more productive? i doubt it. by the time CLI guy checkes which pictures are which (say you need to only move certian 20 out of abotu 100)i will already be moving them with descent file manager that will set them out to preview and i will click drag and drop before one ran write the move command for them.
most popular linux desktop seem to be the one on android phones (even they have different cusomized ones).
65 • It's true I tell you. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 14:15:52 GMT from United States)
@62,
Very well said.
@63,
I'm not sure if was said earlier in the comments but it has been said often of Gnome3, Unity, Cinnamon, Kde, Xfce, and some others. More often then not people will try something for a very short time and if they just can't seem to wrap their head around it then they label it as trash. After that they will never touch it again but they will always still label it as trash. That is just nonsense. If it doesn't fit THEIR perception of what a DE should be then they will say that it's, unusable, a mess, only for smartphones, etc. etc. same old, same old. Then they will pop up and say the developers should have used their resources on a proven acceptable project instead of reinventing the wheel. Well maybe these developers consider the proven acceptable project to be outdated and trash and that wheel to be out of round. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Think about it.
66 • @64 (by fabio on 2013-11-12 15:01:36 GMT from United States)
Hi greg,
kindly let me clarify. I'm not disputing the use of a graphical environment (X) on your linux machine, which as you pointed out is basically essential for the applications/tasks you mentioned. On the contrary, I'm suggesting the use of Openbox as WM.
I'm challenging the fact that bloated DEs are just not essential, that's all. Much of the stuff that comes with GNOME or KDE is either not required or it can be accomplished better and faster, and learning linux with it, by doing it on the CLI. I'm not talking about editing pictures or video, but main admin tasks, using commands like top, free, ps, pstree, netstat, lsof, service, update-rc.d, ssh, lsusb, lspci, lsmod, etc, etc etc and a bunch of more commands like that.
That way you realize that you can actually put your linux in a different context, like in a raspberry pi or old computer and run a webserver or media server (which doesn't even have X), or when you hit a forum and they tell you you have to update initramfs or do modprobe -a you know what's all about!
67 • Not "just CLI" - Keyboard (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-12 15:15:53 GMT from United States)
With arrow keys and several shifty combinations, fine-grain image work can be done without a mouse. For GUI, mousing facilitates initial adaptation, and keyboard facilitates productivity. Simple vs complex.
As an example, using RatPoison for a time (going mouse-free) should potentially teach the difference between getting a task done well and learning to do it at all. Each has its place.
When I first learned to use a spreadsheet, I couldn't discern the difference between spreadsheet tasks and the vocabulary of a particular spreadsheet app (we called them programs then). Using a different app for the same task helped me appreciate the distinction; it was a liberating learning experience.
Perhaps the touchscreen approach is simply an extension of the mouse vocabulary?
68 • @38 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 15:34:25 GMT from United States)
Yes, I learned that trick when I installed my Linux MInt 13 LTS. It was running about 10 degrees too hot on my laptop. I even went as far as to put XFCE on there and that's how I knew I had a temp problem. Once I replaced compiz with marco temps on XFCE and MATE were identical.
69 • @66 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 16:08:14 GMT from United States)
"On the contrary, I'm suggesting the use of Openbox as WM."
Exactly. I'll admit when I first saw Openbox on Crunchbang I hated it because it was "boring". I was coming from Gnome with Compiz, exploding windows, magic lamp, eye candy etcc. The same with KDE and Kwin. But after playing with Openbox\t I found it quite practical and no-nonsense. If you just want something that works and gets the job done go Openbox.
70 • buntu spins (by tuxtest on 2013-11-12 16:42:55 GMT from Canada)
@34
I agree with you ! it's completly ridiculous....
71 • No it's not. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 17:22:15 GMT from United States)
@34,
No it's not ridiculous. What would be ridiculous is if people didn't have the right to do their respins, no matter what base they use. Who's freedom do you want to take away? The ones doing Debian respins, the ones doing Slackware respins, the ones doing Arch respins, the ones doing Redhat respins, the ones doing Mandriva respins, the ones doing Ubuntu respins, and the list goes on. Again, who's freedoms do you want to take away? Now that's completely ridiculous.
72 • @71 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-12 18:01:50 GMT from United States)
I totally agree. Not sure where I'd be without Manjaro (Arch respin) Plain old Arch was a bit too challenging for me but what Manjaro did was incredible and I'm thankful. I'm sure others out there have similar examples. Keep spinning away.
73 • RE 71,62 (by dbrion on 2013-11-12 18:39:48 GMT from France)
Is one free to say that a x-th respin is ridiculous? (or that believing compiling, adding a {k,x ...} in front of a name is an original creative work?
Is being qualified as ridiculous logically equivalent to be deprvied of freedom? (ridiculous people remain free to remain ridiculous ... and often remain like that)
BTW : Fedora -and Mandriva-others, I do not know -offer{,ed} different desktops without claiming (K,X,L)Fedora/(G,L,X)Mandriva are/were distributions.
"I just can't imagine how some people here arguing that Ubuntu is bad, while not using it. To taste the bacon, you have to eat it, right?"
s/bacon/arsenic/ (say)
Most people do not have time to taste everything; choices can be drawn from elementary reasoning, the ingredients they can buy, the fame of the seller-this can be at a zero $ price- (is he spending a lot of energy in PR? is he trying to offer the best things at his clients?)
74 • PiSi Linux RC1 (by Chanath on 2013-11-12 19:18:39 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Installed PiSi Linux on one of the partitions. Installation and post installation instructions are superb. I am glad that Pardus is living again as PiSi Linux. Good distros shouldn't die. Wish the PiSi team good luck in their endeavor.
75 • ubuntu respins (by shrek on 2013-11-12 19:32:58 GMT from United States)
@39,70,71
No really, its enough already. I don't mind respins that actually offer something. Centos is a nice example of that. But the respins that are nothing but cosmetic, or have average software installed are just not worth downloading.
We get it, Ubuntu is the end all to be all in all software ever (sarcasm). But holy crap, a respin with a new desktop background doesn't need to be developed.
76 • Distribution name. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-12 20:08:51 GMT from United States)
@73,75
The point I'm trying to convey is that people are being told, or lets say asked, to not make any more Ubuntu respins. Why? No one is making anyone download the distro so it's not really anyones concern except the one doing the respinning. Come on people. The base distro is irrelevant. Don't try to twist the freedom to modify and use software into something else, like freedom of speech. In reality why should anyone care. If it's a respin of a distro that you don't care for then why in the world would you even consider downloading it? That doesn't make any sense. I don't do respins but a lot of people do. Some may be proud of their respin and want to share. Others may have other reasons for developing them but we knew this would happen. When you are told that you can take this software, modify it as you see fit, and then give it away if anyone wants it, what are you gonna do. This has always been one of the strong points of open source and it always will be. I will defend anyone's right to create as many respins as they see fit. It's up to us, individually, to determine if it's going to be used by any one of us. Just as they have the freedom to spin we have the freedom not to use if we see fit. This is not that hard to understand.
77 • RE 76 (by dbrion on 2013-11-12 20:25:28 GMT from France)
"The point I'm trying to convey is that people are being told, or lets say asked, to not make any more Ubuntu respins. "
Well, people who tell them are free -and freedom of speech still exists in the real world, not in the Ubu world- to tell or to ask.
They might 'have the right' to ask whether adding a K,L, X show any special skills ... or, maybe, just doing what other distributions do....but then, their original skill is simply to add another first letter... which is either "ridiculous" (71) or public-relations cheating....
Other distros make/made their own respins and do not claim it is a complicated task, people can choose their DE at install (sometimes even at login cf Mandriva 2008/2010 -do not remember which one- icewm, xfce and KDE could be installed and at, login, the same user could coose, IIRC) without trying to advertise by adding supplementary letters ....
And I bet it does not demand huge talents....
78 • Ubuntu respins (by fernbap on 2013-11-12 20:52:11 GMT from Portugal)
What not? I think that here what we have is just covered jealousy.
There are many Ubuntu respins simply because Ubuntu is the easiest base to build upon, followed closely by Debian.
People are just angry at others for not using their distros of choice to build upon, and that is all.
If Fedora or Slackware or Gentoo were easier to build upon, people would use them instead of Ubuntu. As simple as that.
This is just a smoke courtain in order to hide the real cause of your frustration.
79 • PisiLinux (by anton on 2013-11-13 01:05:41 GMT from Moldova, Republic of)
Why pisi developers insist to do another distribution ?
Their parent project Pardus gave up on pisi package manager and switched to debian,
instead of developing from scratch everything, switch to debian or help Pardus.
80 • @65 (by :wq on 2013-11-13 01:33:06 GMT from United States)
There is definitely politicking in open source, but I'm not so cynical as to believe that most people who have posted to DistroWatch with criticisms of the GNOME 3 or Unity desktop user experiences are inveterate whiners lacking in consideration, who half-heartedly try something, hoping it will fall short of their expectations, and then never give it a second chance or twentieth chance. I have also seen some people seek to dismiss conventional desktop environments or their users as being stuck in the past when they don't fall in line. Is rail transport stuck in the past due to the dawn of automobile mass production and motorways? Or might there be uses for which it is well-suited? Did the technology stop evolving with regard to its purpose? Of course not.
81 • @58 Re: Jesse's Video (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-13 02:03:24 GMT from United States)
If you had taken to the time to read my entire post at the very least you would have known that your post is unresponsive at best. Providing the video card/chipset provides only 20 to 30% of the equation at best. It doesn't cover the cpu, motherboard (or at least the motherboard chipset), memory, network card/chipset, or any of the other hardware components that could contribute to the problems exhibited in this (and other previous) review.
82 • Regarding spin equivalents of "a pill that gives worms to ex-girlfriends" (by :wq on 2013-11-13 02:13:03 GMT from United States)
Some people's issues with distro spins might be a case of sour grapes, but I don't think that is what is at the root of the matter. This spin nimiety isn't specifically Ubuntu-related, but Ubuntu spins happen to be an easy illustration as there are a lot of Ubuntu spins due to Ubuntu's popularity and the relative ease of creating a respin. Should people have the freedom to create spins? Definitely. Is a given spin deserving of attention and mind share? That is obviously for each person to decide, but I think you will find that there are some common questions many people will ask, such as: 1) What does a spin bring to the table that it's parent doesn't, or that other existing spins of said parent don't? 2) Is the author committed to supporting it, or is it a fickle vanity project that will be dead in a year or two when the author becomes bored or frustrated? 3) What is the effect beyond the immediate sphere of that spin? (ex. Is there a resource cost levied on others? Is there an avoidable duplication of efforts?, etc)
83 • @73 Dbrion (by Chanath on 2013-11-13 03:16:59 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I think the idea is to "taste" what you can, bacon included. Right now, I am tating PiSi Linux RC1 and enjoying it.
You can have many distros in your computer, as far as your documents etc are stored in another partition, which can be reached by all the distros, and even the Windows. You can have that home partition in a FAT32 or NTFS.
It is really nice to "taste" so many distros, Linux or whatever. Good day!
84 • respin (by tuxtest on 2013-11-13 03:26:07 GMT from Canada)
@71
Well! We often had this discussion here often.
It's not a problem that someone built a custom buntu.
The problem is: change the theme, the icons, the wallpaper and some software and then give a new personal name such as exemple * NiceBuntos *.
Ask yourself the following question: What is Nicebuntos is a new Distro that should be listed here on Distrowatch? I don't think so
Is that relevant? The answer is not.
Is it appropriate to build your own version of Ubuntu? or course. yes why not
But it should remain be a personal project. This is not relevant included to the list of Distrowatch. This does nothing more for user and community.
best regard at all
85 • Debian/XFCE; Slackware 14.1 (by digger on 2013-11-13 03:48:19 GMT from United States)
Re XFCE for Debian hurrah!
Re: Slackware 14.1 just installed iton my laptop.: very good & using XFCE as DE.
What I like about all three is that they just work and don't get in the way, My 2 ¢. YMMV.
86 • RE 78 Jealousy and facts (by dbrion on 2013-11-13 07:47:15 GMT from France)
"
If Fedora or Slackware or Gentoo were easier to build upon, people would use them instead of Ubuntu. As simple as that."
Well Fedora offers evry night -at least except for intense testing periods, such as now- 14 respins, built automatically (does not seem too difficult) http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/. Stable versions can be found in http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/. They do not advertise w/r to that (and maybe it might interest robot lovers, musicians)
Well, you have jealous links to
....facts....
One can know the list of ingredients (ex : I do not like Gnome, but like FC eletronic lab -which have a complicated Gnome: I install FC-LXDE -colleagues prefer XFCE as an KDE/Gnome improvement - to replace Gnome, and FC EL list of *rpms)
For SW, I do not know (not interested in distro(s)hopping: once something works, I stick to it until it breaks); for Gentoo, arm-based cards (Beagle Bone) often use Gentoo -derived/inspired cross-building environments (but RPi use Debian based , a little Fedora or Arch).
87 • You spin me right-round (by jenkiny on 2013-11-13 12:19:13 GMT from France)
Of course there is nothing wrong with making a custom version of whichever distro out there, but as @84 said it should do something more than offer a different DE in order to be listed here.
Most major distros give the option to download directly from their websites different flavours of their distro. examples:
Fedora
https://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-options
Mint
http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php
even spin distros do that...
It is just a policy of ubuntu to advertise its product as a stable and standalone all purpose OS. Ubuntu wants to give the image of a one and only PRODUCT that is not customizable (in a way that the user doesn't have to worry about anything...just download, install and let canonical do the rest)...like windows and MacOS does!!!
plus it is a clever way to occupy half the list of distrowatch hit rank with all these spins that most of them are from the ubuntu community and not someones own project.
cause that would be different. making a ubuntu spin focused on a target group (games, science, internet, etc...) yes that would be a reason to list this spin. but simply changing the first letter and the DE that's changing the flavour and should be available from the ubuntu site as it is the same exact product.
from someone who used to love ubuntu and still thinks that is a powerfull and well maintained distro....but now its way out of the linux mentality and scope.
88 • To Jymm re an easy/friendly format app for Point Linux: (by TH on 2013-11-13 12:47:41 GMT from United States)
Thanks for pointing out Gnome Disk Utility. I tried to install it, and part of the install in Point Linux wanted me to re-install Grub! - which makes no sense at all! It offered me a choice of two places to install it, neither of which is clear to me (without research) where to put it. I carefully backed out of the install. I have seen this Grub reinstall screen before. Is it because I am trying to install a Gnome app into a Mate OS??
I have also noticed that in the past, when wanting to install a Gnome app into a Mate OS (example: Totem media player) says in Synaptic "To be uninstalled: Mate Desktop"!! I sure back out real fast out of those also! I am hoping that the Mate developers or Point Linux will add that helpful "Format" into the Properties right-click menu, in future versions, like we have in Gnome 2.x OS distros!
89 • @ 87 Jenkiny from France (by Chanath on 2013-11-13 12:49:16 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"It is just a policy of ubuntu to advertise its product as a stable and standalone all purpose OS."
Now, there is a young chap from France, David Tavares doing re-spins of Ubuntu, which would be hard for other guys to re-spin. Lately David had released Pear 8. I'd like to challenge someone to beat him in re-spinning his OS. His perseverance is very high, and while some wrote bad stuff about his distros, this Pear 8 is a beauty, and also a quite snappy one. I've been watching David spinning distros, while our nice guy Ikey dropped SolusOS.
Have a go and see.
90 • desktop environments (by imageek5 on 2013-11-13 13:16:51 GMT from United States)
I am learning the command line, but frankly it's not particularly useful for getting actual work done, i.e. printing, scanning, creating documents, browsing the web, doing e-mails, using skype (which distro after distro tries to kill by reducing or eliminating compatibility) and so on. Some chess engines do allow me to play via the command line-but I kinda like to have a chessboard displayed in front of me.
Unity, Windows8, Gnome3 are garbage. I have many gripes about Gnome "classic" as well. For example, Unlike previous versions Gnome "classic" won't let me open a file with the program of my choice, and Gnome "classic" doesn't respect changes I make in the defaults list. Sorry, but it's MY computer but I don't have choice to customize it? Huh?
People say the cool thing about Linux is freedom and that you have "choices". Problem is, there really is no choice when your "choices" of de's are limited to a handful of clumsy, awkward, bug filled de's that don't work well and/or are counterintuitive. If I want to get actual work done on a laptop or desktop I need the distro to just get out of my way and follow my instructions. Not the other way around.
Sure, developers can continue to foist junk on users - that's the "freedom" part of it I guess. Users who don't know how to code or don't have time to get their fingernails dirty and simply want their Os's to "just work" are often ridiculed in forums and unable to find the help they want.
If Linux seriously wants to be a factor in the desktop and laptop world, developers need to focus more on functionality, reliability and hardware support. That might include a "standard" desktop environment similar to XP, 7 or even MAC. I know this might be controversial, but XP, 7 and MAC gui's were built that way for a reason, specifically...use by humans!
91 • @90 (by mandog on 2013-11-13 13:40:14 GMT from Peru)
" Gnome "classic" doesn't respect changes I make in the defaults list. Sorry, but it's MY computer but I don't have choice to customize it? Huh?"
Why do people talk such rubbish You can specify to open any file folder with your choice off application or choose a default application to use.
Please stop this childish attitude, Learn how to use Linux then you will know the benefit and power and freedom of using it. Windows/Apple don't give you any choices "Steve Jobs said you will like what we have chosen for you to use," tough if you don't is Ms philosophy.
Linux gives you the freedom to choose what desktop you use and its free!
92 • RE 90 (by dbrion on 2013-11-13 14:24:55 GMT from France)
'That might include a "standard" desktop environment similar to XP, 7 or even MAC.'
gnome and kde were (past tense) superior to XP and 7...
LXDE (maybe XFCE : I did not test it recently) remain (present tense) superior....
Trying to find strings in a directory (basic options of grep), to have quick status of an usb disk (dmesg + sudo fdisk -l) can be easily done with command line... viewing photos is more comfortable with mouse clicks; zooming parts of a photo is very easy with touchscreens (two fingers indicate the diagonal of the rectangular zone to be zoomed, from the initial to the final result), difficult with other input methods (difficult mouse clicks or ImageMagic commands : IMO, ImageMagic is more useful and can lead to automating repetitive tasks). This does not mean touchscreens are superior (if one never zooms photos, or very seldom)....
93 • @87 You spin me right-round (by fernbap on 2013-11-13 15:59:14 GMT from Portugal)
"Most major distros give the option to download directly from their websites different flavours of their distro..."
Riiiight.... Just for the kicks, and since we are on Point Linux week, i downloaded and tried Ferdora MATE spin.
You know, a spin is much more than replacing a DE with a vanilla version of another DE.
For the record, F19 MATE was the slowest of all MATE builds i tried on my hardware. Besides that, it is NOT multimedia ready and has virtually no software that anyone would want to use, like an office, a music player, a video player.
And while Fedora continues to ignore the existance of stuff as simple as a mp3 file, and avi video or the capacity to watch a youtube video, it is pretty much useless. What is the point of the Midori browser, btw?
I know, i could spend the rest of the day making that "spin" usable, but why would I? Why would i have that work if others already did it for me, probably making a better job of it?
No, don't compare your Fedora spins with a distro...
94 • @93 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-13 16:47:39 GMT from United States)
"Just for the kicks, and since we are on Point Linux week, i downloaded and tried Ferdora MATE spin"
I thought Point was Debian based. Did you mean "Mate" spin?
For me certain distros do a DE so good there's no reason to switch. Examples:
Crunchbang - Openbox
Linux MInt - Mate
Bodhi - Enlightenment
SalineOS - XFCE
95 • @94 (by fernbap on 2013-11-13 17:01:08 GMT from Portugal)
My point was just to show the difference between a Fedora Mate spin with Point Linux a disto based on Debian with the MAte desktop. Some people are arguing here that both are just spins, which i obviously don't agree with.
That is also the reason why most distros are based on Ubuntu or Debian. They don't inherit Fedora shortcomings
96 • @95 (by jaws222 on 2013-11-13 17:14:52 GMT from United States)
Got it. I misread the post. I remember when I had F16 Gnome3 it ran pretty well. I went and added Cinnamon, I believe 1.4 at the time and it ran beautifully. I also tried Fedora 17 in KDE and XFCE and it ran well. From what I've read fedora has gone down hill a bit since F16. I'll have to check out F20.
97 • 93, 95 - confusing respect with deficiency (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-13 18:14:28 GMT from United States)
Some areas are picky about legal issues, and distros developed or distributed in such areas rarely include "all codecs" or apps in their base distribution. Many, however, provide documented Short-&-Simple procedures post-install for such accommodation.
In complex systems, "slow" can be a result of many contributing factors. I remember one system taking several minutes to respond to a keystroke - because it was trying to parse surrounding conversation. Turning off voice recognition got it back up to speed.
98 • 79 PiSi - and PiSi Linux (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-13 18:24:14 GMT from United States)
Pisi (Packages Installed Successfully as Intended) alone would make a system worth keeping. The developers of PiSi Linux did not start from scratch, they started with (GPL source code from) the ancestral distro Pardus. Isn't that called "fork"? Or "don't re-invent the wheel"?
99 • Missing the point on software freedom. (by LinuxMan on 2013-11-13 18:10:55 GMT from United States)
dbrion said, "Well, people who tell them are free -and freedom of speech still exists in the real world, not in the Ubu world- to tell or to ask."
And you noticed I said this had nothing to do with freedom of speech and I knew someone would try to twist it in that direction. I never said anything about people giving their opinions about a respin, but I'm not talking about the general bull crap of, "Please don't anyone make anymore of those respins. We have too many all ready." Now that gets into the area of nonsense. The little jabs people give distros that they don't like is just immaturity and when it comes to software freedom opinions are irrelevant. As well as it should be. That's what we need to remember is that it doesn't matter if we like someone else's respin or not as long as they like it. We are free to give our opinions about it, but they made it for a reason, and sometimes it's not always clear to us what the reason is. I will always encourage people to make their own respins, if they so desire, and not to listen to the rubbish that comes out of peoples mouths telling them not to. Think about how we all would feel if we suddenly lost that freedom. The world would seem empty indeed.
I don't believe there's anymore to say on this subject.
100 • RE: Fedora Spins & Remixes (by :wq on 2013-11-13 18:54:44 GMT from United States)
The Fedora Project makes a distinction between spins and remixes. "A Remix can be created by anyone with our tools, and labeled with the special "Fedora Remix" mark as set out in that logo's guidelines page. A Spin, on the other hand, contains only 100% Fedora software, not combined with any other third-party software, has been approved by the Fedora Spins_SIG, and granted the "Fedora" name by the Fedora Project Board. Spins are usually carried on our BitTorrent server and official mirrors. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix#Are_Remixes_and_Spins_different.3F A list of remixes can be found at the preceding link, most of which include proprietary software and repos OOTB.
As opposed to remixes, Fedora spins inherit the Fedora Project's stance on the inclusion of proprietary software. "The Fedora Project strongly encourages using free and open source software. Fedora has licensing guidelines that enforce the following requirements: If it is proprietary, it cannot be included in Fedora. (Binary firmware is the only exception to this.) If it is legally encumbered, it cannot be included in Fedora. If it violates United States laws (specifically, Federal or applicable state laws), it cannot be included in Fedora." https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items?rd=ForbiddenItems. This is stance is more purist or risk avoidant than I would like, but it is easy to add third party repos. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Third_party_repositories.
Otherwise, the same considerations apply to the Fedora family tree as apply to the Ubuntu family tree regarding the existence of spins/remixes.
101 • @79 (by :wq on 2013-11-13 20:00:40 GMT from United States)
I've read some grumblings that the development of the original Pardus might have been the victim of the fluctuating winds of governmental bureaucracy. That is to say, I'm not certain that the decision to jettison the previous base was due to technical or feasibility issues. Hence the formation of the Pisi Linux team.
102 • Gnome Disk Utility (by Jymm on 2013-11-13 20:20:22 GMT from United States)
I am not sure what the problems you are having are or how you are trying to install Disk utility. I had no problems. Yes Point will try to update Grub and doing so should not hurt if you only have Point on the computer or Point as the last install, first boot. Use the space bar to check the box for the Grub update. I would suggest you do a apt-get update apt-get upgrade from the command line/terminal to get that out of the way.
You should then be able to install Disk Utility without problems. Do NOT try to remove any Mate applications, that will remove the mate desktop. I ran into that problem with the Mate Screensaver when I wanted to install Xscreen Saver. I just disabled the Mate screensaver and added Xscreen saver to start up applications. I used Synaptic for my Disk Utility install on all three of my computers with no problem. Gnome Disk Utility should not remove any Mate items.
103 • Fedora 20 Beta (by Dave Postles on 2013-11-14 04:26:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Fedora 20 Beta with XFCE seems fine, although it's one of the distros in which you have to edit the freshclam.conf file, it seems (at least, I had to, to get it to load the antivirus signatures with # freshclam. I'm not convinced that clamtk works, but clamav from the cli looks like it does).
104 • @93 Fedora ignores (by Kazlu on 2013-11-14 21:10:30 GMT from France)
"And while Fedora continues to ignore the existance of stuff as simple as a mp3 file, and avi video or the capacity to watch a youtube video, it is pretty much useless."
Except for Flash, it's not a matter of ignoring or not, it's a legal matter. mp3 decoders, DivX decoders and many other decoders of video formats you usually find in an avi or mp4 video file are covered by patents that require to give a royalty to the MPEG consortium for each copy of decoder that is distributed in certain countries, notably USA and Japan. Including those decoders in a GNU/Linux distro and not giving the royalty is illegal. Therefore, to avoid charging the person who downloads/installs the distro or to pay themselves, most distros do not include them. Getting those decoders post-install (easily or not, even when Ubuntu proposes to check a box to install Fluendo's codecs, it's still post-install) is STILL illegal in the concerned countries. The difference is, at that point, it's the user choice and responsibility, not the distro's. That's why Linux Mint has a special version without codecs that can be legally distributed in those countries and a main version including the codecs for the rest of the world. I guess it would be hard to do that for Fedora, which is US-based, without risking a trial from the MPEG consortium. You can't blame Fedora for that. The decoders may be free/libre software, that does not changes the patent problem.
As for Flash, it is indeed a matter of free/libre software or not, thus a philosophical matter. I guess Fedora could provide a backup solution to watch Youtube videos, such as Gnash or Viewtube, but that would be complicated for a lot of users to replace that with Flash in the end.
105 • @104 MP3 and proprietary formats (by Thomas Mueller on 2013-11-15 03:22:58 GMT from United States)
I know some distros that include MP3 players such as mpg321 or mpg123 and mplayer (Slackware for instance). Open-source multimedia players are also included, at least in source form, in FreeBSD ports and NetBSD pkgsrc. Best I can say about legal issues involved is that I am not a lawyer.
I'd like a good way to be able to switch the Flash plugin between Gnash and Adobe Flash player in web browsers such as Firefox. That way, a user could see if something plays in Gnash while keeping Adobe Flash player as fallback.
106 • @105 mp3 and Flash (by Kazlu on 2013-11-15 08:26:43 GMT from France)
I think and I am almost sure that every mp3 decoder included in a GNU/Linux or BSD-based OS is open-source, since such exist and are widely available. So, if even if I do not know the exact legal texts, if there was no legal problem every GNU/Linux or BSD-based system would include an mp3 decoder. I don't know how decoders that are not installed but provided in the official repositories are impacted. About mp3, the patent expires in 2017, so from then mp3 will become free :) I am not sure of the exact terms and I know at least right know the limitations are not the same for mp3 encoders and mp3 decoders. Anyway, 2017 is a turning point for mp3, but other formats are not concerned, such as DivX, H.264, etc.
About Flash, I agree with you, personnally I would like that kind of solution. I would even include Lightspark in the equation. I tried to install Lightspark in Trisquel once but failed to use it properly... I admit I did not look very far. I use Ubuntu most of the time today, Trisquel to experiment how life is without proprietary software. I would like to have a solution which uses Lightspark and if needed fallbacks to Gnash then if needed fallbacks to Flash, I'll do some research when I have the time, but if something already exists that would be nice :) However, I think a beginner would be lost, so that's probably not a very good solution fo ready-to-use beginner-friendly distros such as Ubuntu and Mint.
You might be interested in Viewtube, a user script enabled by Greasemonkey on Firefox that allows to play Youtube's (an a few other site's) videos with multimedia plugins such as mplayer or vlc or even without plugin thanks to HTML5. I use it and fallback to Flash when I have trouble easily by disabling Greasemonkey just for that moment, doing so in just one click.
107 • Freed ... proprietary (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-15 11:36:16 GMT from United States)
I have yet to see a distro provide fine-grained tools for micro-managing proprietary software, or a way to restrict it to fallback priority, yet these would seem intuitively preferable for groups who claim to promote freed'em.
108 • Jesse Smith's hardware (by Pearson on 2013-11-15 22:14:49 GMT from United States)
I emailed Jessee, to suggest that he include a link to a page describing his hardware setup. I couldn't tell whether he will do that, but he did send me what I believe is the output of 'lshw -vvv'. Since it's pretty big, I put it onto hatebin (*not* pastebin -- my work blockes it).
http://hastebin.com/raw/momudarahe
I hope this helps everyone.
109 • #91's ignorance (by imageek5 on 2013-11-16 04:06:18 GMT from Mexico)
Gnome Classic does not let you specify which program to use to open a particular file, the right click command line option that was available in previous versions has been removed.
Gnome Classic/Wheezy iteration right click will show you a list of a few programs but if the one you want isn't listed you are toast.
Linux people talk about "choice" but being forced to open a .pdf file with any one of a handful inferior imitation adobe readers is hardly "choice."
110 • PDF (Portable Document Format) readers (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-11-16 06:51:19 GMT from United States)
Actually, I've seen at least two PDF readers that perform far better than proprietary ( Adobe® Reader®) versions.
111 • Linux Mint 16 Rc, but Trusty (by Chanath on 2013-11-16 13:29:00 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Downloaded Linux Mint 16 RC to look at, and feel the Cinnamon 2.0. I usually don't stay with Linux Mint, always returning to Ubuntu. Anyway, being the experimenting guy, I changed the repos to Trusty Tahr and installed the TT base in it. Mind you, the Mint 16 release is still RC, but I'd be using, say Mint 17.
If the Mint guys don't change Petra repos, or even if they change it, my re-spin won't break at all. I'd keep on updating and upgrading the TT base, and by the time TT would be released, I'd have a Linux Mint 17 ready with the TT base. Sometime after the TT would be released, the next Mint repo would come about directing to the next Mint 17. All I have to do is to change the Petra repos to the next one.
I'd give you guys feedback from this experiment, maybe on Monday in the next DW. Right now for few hours, my "Mint 17" re-spin is working quite well.
112 • 109 1's ignorance (by mandog on 2013-11-16 18:12:21 GMT from Peru)
I don't know what sort of half baked distro you are using or you are just spreading FUD> Gnome 3.10.1 running on top of archlinux in normal or classic mode you can choose any application you desire to open any file simply right click on the file click open with choose any thing thats appropriate to open the file type. now that's not hard unless you want to open a pdf with a media player or the like.
113 • Q19 Re: Jesse's Hardware (by Rev_Don on 2013-11-16 23:36:54 GMT from United States)
So what he has is one of these HP desktops. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883256196 How hard would it have been to post a link to that or to create a page with the system specs for the systems he uses for reviews? It wouldn't have taken more than a minute to two and would have elimination all of this.
I wonder why it is that he has been so secretive about it. At least now we have some baseline information to reference when he runs into trouble during his reviews, and let's be honest here, that tends to be the norm. Add his system specs his adamant refusal to install any additional drivers and it becomes clear why his actions (or in-actions) in so many reviews give a false impression that there is something wrong with a distro when it is evident that quite often it is a PEBCAK error.
114 • Linux Mint 16RC with the TT base feedback (by Chanath on 2013-11-17 10:15:46 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Installed the Linux kernel 3.12.0-031200-generic on my -re-spin of Linux Mint 16 RC with the TT base. Works superbly. All apps respond snappily. Quite a nice Mint release and quite an interesting experiment.
115 • The REAL FUD! (by Jordan on 2013-11-17 21:29:22 GMT from United States)
Fedora! Ubuntu! Debian!
... a bit of levity for my friends at DW. I'm running Porteus on a big flash drive and love it. But I'll tell you, the Porteus roots are Slackware, although F.U.D. influences are there as plain as the Gnome/Mate, etc on its face(s).
It's all good F.U.D. Great choices abound, even though we do see Debian forks and reworks all up and down that "top 100" hit list on the front page of this great site.
116 • @ 115 • The REAL FUD! Jordan (by Chanath on 2013-11-18 03:06:56 GMT from Sri Lanka)
At this moment, Jordan, it is Ubuntu and its clones, derivatives are the majority in the Linux world. Some people, who had never heard of Linux, had heard of Ubuntu. Practically all the computer shops here sell Ubuntu laptops and and also Zorin laptops. In Poland or Russia, it is quite normal to see Ubuntu laptops in the computer shops, very large shops, mind you.
You see that Linux Mint tops the charts in DW, but it is still a clone/fork of Ubuntu. Mint 16RC's new Cinnamon 2.0 is very nice. So, I installed it in a spare partition, and upgraded it from Saucy base to Trusty base, re-spinning it to a testing ground. And, also installed the new Linux kernel 3.12.
No hitches, no hiccups, nothing to complain about. I also have Trusty, an dit doesn't give me any hitches too.
By the way, I know Porteus is very good, but if I want to carry a distro in a USB disk, I'd always opt for Puppy. Any work you do won't be lost, as they can be saved to the same USB stick.
Number of Comments: 116
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