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1 • frist and aptosid (by greg on 2013-06-03 09:57:16 GMT from Slovenia)
so what exactly is the difference between Debian sid and Aptosid? why would a user go with Aptosid instead of Debian?
2 • DNS settings (by Omari on 2013-06-03 11:21:13 GMT from United States)
Only Debian based systems will have /etc/network/interfaces, and even your Debian system might ignore it if you are using something like NetworkManager.
3 • aptosid (by mechanic on 2013-06-03 11:25:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
@1: ...or Siduction?
4 • that bug #1 thing (by meanpt on 2013-06-03 11:31:04 GMT from Portugal)
I think that's canonical's mindset the bug nr 1 of ubuntu, of which this mark's tout is just an example.
5 • Bug #1 (by Bert07 on 2013-06-03 11:31:05 GMT from Belgium)
Closing Bug #1 at this moment is rather irrational.
Bug #1 can only be closed at the moment all computer shops sell computers without any operating system, and when an operation system is optional and not mandatory.
In Belgium you can hardly find any shop that sells a computer without any operating system. (Read Windows.)
As long as this is the case, Bug #1 will keep existing.
6 • Bug # 1 (by Bert07 on 2013-06-03 11:44:30 GMT from Belgium)
It is not about being able to buy a computer with Linux installed on it.
It is about being able to buy a computer without ANY system installed on it.
7 • buy parts (by GODhack on 2013-06-03 12:21:53 GMT from Lithuania)
buy parts and assemble computer yourself you will save big part of price. Not only OS price but shops charge a lot for quite simple part connection process. Of course thats not possible for laptop.
8 • @bert (by greg on 2013-06-03 12:24:37 GMT from Slovenia)
a computer needs an operating system to function.
and i believe there is an EU directive that for that reason computers must have an operating system of some sort. (here they bypass if by installing FreeDOS on computers)
granted, the sellers could/should give an option to customers (which if you ask me is another thing where EU should interfere - regarding monopoly) which OS they would like to have pre-installed. again this is done here if no os is present (for example shop's system build-A.K.A NONAME PC/Laptop), however the only OS suggested to customers is latest Windows (no Mac, no Linux...). is that really "choice" for consumers?
I see some paralels with browsers (preloaded IE issue within EU).
9 • @greg (by Bert07 on 2013-06-03 13:01:33 GMT from Belgium)
Okay. A computer needs an operating system to function. No sweat there.
Just download any Linux system you like for free and install it on a none functioning computer.
If it is the case that you like Windows, buy the system and install it.
The customer should have the choice.
At this moment I pay Microsoft for a system I do not use on every computer I buy.
Although I already have bought Windows. Then why should I pay twice or multiple times for every computer I buy? This is not honest. This is theft.
10 • Bug #1 (by sb on 2013-06-03 13:50:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
goto http://www.novatech.co.uk they sell pcs without os
11 • Aptosid and Fedora 19 (by musty on 2013-06-03 14:39:18 GMT from France)
- Nice review of Aptoside. i have used it since it was named Sidux on my Compaq evo n410c with 768 Mo and pentium III M at 1200 Mhz and it was flying and very speedy. And in rare case it breaks (rarely).
- Fedora 19 beta is very stable for me now. i use it every day for android dev and php/mysql : very fast ...
have a nice day and good continuation
12 • @ #1 and #3 (by Pierre on 2013-06-03 14:41:44 GMT from Germany)
First of all both projects are delivering an installer to Debian sid.
And secondly they apply patches via their own repositories and this way stabilize the Unstable branch of Debian.
Additionally I don't see the reason for pointing out so often the rough edges and possible stability issues or unpredictability. It's not much different to Arch Linux or other rolling release distros. Sometimes basic things get changed with the result of some hick ups here and there.
But in fact it's not that dangerous to use like it sounds in the review. And doing back ups before installing a new system is always recommended, no matter with distro you are going to give a try.
13 • @7:GODhack (by dragonmouth on 2013-06-03 15:41:08 GMT from United States)
"buy parts and assemble computer yourself you will save big part of price"
Since the leading PC suppliers (Dell, HP, etc.) buy parts in 100K lots or more, you cannot beat them on parts prices. One advantage of building your own is that you don't have to show profit so you determine the quality of the parts you install. The other advantage is that you get to choose the O/S, not the manufacturer. Whether you save money on the O/S depends on the one you choose. Linux and BSD are free which saves you money. If you wish to install Windows then you have to pay more than if it came pre-installed.
14 • Debian Sid (by Chanath on 2013-06-03 15:41:30 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Siduction Gnome edition is doing pretty well. I wanted to experiment with Debian, after few days discussions here. I had installed Debian 7 Gnome, too, but opted for Siduction after few days. I also installed AntiX and then installed Gnome shell and GDM. AntiX asked me, what i want, and I decided on Sid. So, I had 2 Debian Sid distros on, and both were very snappy, and even though they are Sid, I had no trouble at all. Finally I decided to keep Siduction, not because AntiX is not good, but so much had to be changed there, half an hour's work though.
I also found quite an interesting thing in Debian 7 live. You can see that here; http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9777/screenshotfrom201306010.jpg
I found this before I installed it, so you can see the "Debian Live User" there. What you'd see in the screenshot is the most disturbing part; the Software Sources says to notify for the next Ubuntu version. This is Debian 7 Live, mind you!
15 • Debian & Ubuntu (by Chanath on 2013-06-03 15:56:01 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Continuation of #14
Siduction, which is based on Debian Sid also has Synaptic Package Manager, but it comes from Debian repos, so, the Synaptic in Debian 7 Live must come from Ubuntu repos, otherwise, why should it say about the next upgrade of Ubuntu. This tells me that the "shouldn't use Ubuntu repos in Debian" is just a myth. I have both 32 and 64 bit Debian 7 Gnome isos, and both has that Software Sources.
16 • RE #8 - Freedos (by Umm on 2013-06-03 16:03:23 GMT from United States)
If Gem would use a little "Wine" to get windows 95/98se support there would be no doubt that Freedos has done more to kill Ubuntu bug #1 than Ubuntu. I would even say Puppy has done more than Ubuntu especially considering the heavy system requirements Ubuntu is requiring just to run the graphic installer.
17 • aptosid (by Glenn Condrey on 2013-06-03 16:15:19 GMT from United States)
If aptosid's developers were a bit more on the friendly side....aptosid would be my main distribution.
After Xandros died, I went looking for another Debian based distro that I could feel comfortable with.
What I found was a distro called 'sidux', the project that aptosid's developers were calling their distro then. Whenever I asked questions about how to get something done (and as I am quite experienced using Linux....is not OFTEN) they were quite rude in their responses.
After they changed the name of the distro to aptosid, I figured I would give them another shot.
Same peeps running the show....same rude attitude.
If I had to run a small Debian Sid based project....it would be based on 'siduction'.....I have had no problems with their software, or getting questions answered in a courteous manner.
18 • Siduction (by Chanath on 2013-06-03 16:30:09 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Did I write something wrong about Siduction and Debian 7?
I have Debian 7 Gnome installed and I have the same Synaptic Package Manager from Ubuntu repos, asking me, whether I would like to upgrade to next Ubuntu release or the LTS one. Siduction doesn't have it that way.
If I am to not to write about Debian, I won't. But, I am going to install Gnome 3.8.2 through Ubuntu ppas in Debian 7.
19 • @18 and previous (by Sam Graf on 2013-06-03 16:37:37 GMT from United States)
"I found this before I installed it..."
I noticed this too. I have one Debian 7 installation running GNOME but it is elsewhere. I think checking sources.list would nail down whether this is a GUI oops (perhaps through one of Ubunut's contributions back to Debian) or if something more is wrong.
20 • RE: #16 (by mcellius on 2013-06-03 16:41:32 GMT from United States)
Actually, if you read Mark Shuttleworth's comments (which are quoted in DW's snippet), you'll see that he does not credit Ubuntu or Canonical or even himself with the change. He said this:
"Even though we have only played a small part in that shift, I think it’s important for us to recognize that the shift has taken place. So from Ubuntu’s perspective, this bug is now closed.”
21 • Language, Linux and Raspberry Pi. (by gee7 on 2013-06-03 16:50:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
@Chakra
I installed the new Chakra a few days ago but unfortunately it is one of those distros that doesn't properly support the English language.
The words "Favourites" and "Centre" are the British English most commonly misspelt, even when the user has selected British English as the default language. I could find no way to download a language pack. Perhaps it is a sign of inexperienced developers as Debian and Linux Mint
and other well-respected distros have never had a problem with given the user tandard British English. So Chakra lasted 6 hours on a partition.
I replaced that space with Sabayon-13.04 Mate and encountered the same problem but by editing locales and adding lines to a configuration file I managed to get British English 2 hours after installation. Sabayon is a little beauty and I am pleased to try Mate on it.
These basic language problems should never occur. The American version of English is a great language, full of its own character, but British English is the language of the UK and usually of business in Europe. I appeal to all developers to respect the mother language of England and to users not to support distributions that deliberately use American English spellings even when British English has been chosen as the default language.
@aptosid
Nice review, Jesse. Thank you.
In your review, you say, "This distribution is not, nor does it try to be, friendly or pretty. There is no hand holding, no frills and no implied stability."
My own experience is different, I found aptosid to be user-friendly, the user's hand is held on updating (the instructions given on their site are in clear and helpful language) and aptosid has always been stable for me (Touch wood!). Pretty? Well, maybe Jesse is right on that one, but beauty is in the eye and functionality has its own aura of beauty.
For those who are thinking of trying it, it is easy enough to install Synaptic Packet Manager and then look for additional software ... and to update the system, just regularly perform the following steps:
(1) Log out.
(2) Go to text mode with Ctrl+Alt+F1
(3) Log in as root by typing:
# root
and give root password when asked.
(4) type the following 5 lines, waiting for any actions to complete before typing the next one:
# init 3
# apt-get update
#apt-get dist-upgrade
# apt-get clean
# init 5 && exit
It looks complicated but if a note of those steps is taken for reference, for example pinned on a wall near the computer, it is easy enough to update, besides being Fun working on the command-line.
My aptosid KDE is currently up-to-date by using those steps and I have had it on my hard drive since 21 February 2012 with no problems, no crashes and no broken packages. It has been solid.
@raspbian
Any chance of adding the Raspbian operating system officially to your database, Jesse? It has been out long enough now and is under strong and conscientious development.
As 10,000 Pi's are being produced and sold every month - Linux on a computer :-) - many being sold to users new to Linux and some to users of all ages new to computers, and Raspbian is the recommended operating system, it would be interesting to see the hit rate on Distro Watch. Surely because of its cheapness, there is a world-wide market opening up for the Raspberry Pi and it would be interesting to follow developments on this site.
These are exciting times for those involved in the project, I guess.
22 • @19 Sam Graf (by Chanath on 2013-06-03 17:08:03 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Of course, there is nothing on Ubuntu in the Debian 7's sources.list, but Synaptic must've been originally taken from Ubuntu repos. Lately, I've been taking .deb files from Ubuntu and installing then in Debian and vice versa. There is some differences, but I believe this difference is done for somewhat political matter. Sometimes it says dependencies don't match, but apt-get -f install, installs those too. Both have.deb files, so this "non-matching" is some personal matter, rather than a technological matter.
Ubuntu devs surely test their apps, otherwise won't put then on a repo and freeze them, for example as in Raring repos. If Debian distro can use Raring repos, it would be up to date, without being so late. What's in Saucy repos are much more up to date than Sid repos, otherwise more modern, or bleeding edge.
23 • Correcting my own language (by gee7 on 2013-06-03 17:21:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
@21
Read:
other well-respected distros have never had a problem with given the user tandard British English.
as:
other well-respected distros have never had a problem with giving the user standard British English.
24 • @22 (by Sam Graf on 2013-06-03 17:29:26 GMT from United States)
My point is that outside some agenda-driven debate, the presence of "Ubuntu" in the GNOME interface of Debian 7 really amount to a typo. It proves nothing in itself; for all we know the uncorrected problem could be upstream, within GNOME itself, and not originating with Debian.
It's not something within Synaptic, as far as I know. I have not yet run across "Ubuntu" in the traditional Synaptic interface in Debian 7 Xfce (which is the only other Debian 7 desktop I use).
25 • PCs with no OS (by Dave Postles on 2013-06-03 17:29:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are a number of vendors who will supply systems to your configuration without an OS. One of the issues, however, is if they bench test with Windows, which could lead to Windows being left on the machine or, maybe (?), a UEFI issue. In the past, I have had good kit from Novatech, as noted above (#10) and PCSpecialist, but not since 'secure boot' and Windows 8.
26 • Aptosid etc (by David Smith on 2013-06-03 19:07:24 GMT from Canada)
Aptosid (nee Sidux) is the original rolling release based on Debian Sid, and it's appropriate for those who want to experience the very latest kernels and various packages. After using it for a few years, I concluded it was an interesting educational experience, but not really worth the bother for me (it would fail to boot into the desktop after an update with some frequency, usually due to dependency mismatches -- and updates can be very frequent indeed). As someone else pointed out here, the main developers may be lacking in social skills, but their project has to be recognized as a personal project that they happen to share publicly, and they have better things to do than hold hands of curious noobs, who ill-advisedly want to run it as their main production pc. Siduction is a fork, don't really know much else about it, except the Sidux/Aptosid's 'better half' (in terms of user-friendliness) went with that. Initially at least it was using Aptosid's custom 'slh' kernels, but I have no idea whether that's still the case. Now that there are several Debian Sid 'rolling releases' in the wild, it's difficult to say what makes the apto-/-uction variants unique. I don't really find significant differences between assorted distros in general, apart from package handling. And for that, it's hard to beat apt, though I think the two main rpm-based releases Fedora and opensuse are coming dangerously close.
27 • PCs with no OS (by fernbap on 2013-06-03 19:08:30 GMT from Portugal)
I think the las computer i bought was in 1992.
From then on, i've been purchasing parts and continuously upgrading "my computer". You have a lot of advantages from working this way:
1- You only buy what you want to upgrade, either a motherboard, processor, memory, graphics card, hard disk, etc.
2- Usually, tgere are peripherals you don't need to upgrade. Your monitor can be the same, as well as your printer or keyboard/mouse, etc.
3- You don't need to buy ANY operating system.
4- You tailor your computer exactly to the workload you will need.
5- it is much cheaper.
This way, you will always have a modern computer without ever having to buy a new one.
Don't let the need to assemble your computer scare you. Anyone can do it.
You can start by buying a used computer for very little (or reviving and old one), and then upgrade its components depending on your needs.
28 • Shuttleworth (by Leading Analyst on 2013-06-03 19:36:43 GMT from Finland)
You guys should read Mark's comment. He also made reference to the fact that computing has changed and expanded to mobile devices - on those markets Windows is not dominant, but Linux based Android and BSD based iOS are. Computing today is not just the PC.
Windows Phone is actually quite nice. One of the better things that Redmond has been able to produce. Stable, usable and snappy, unlike the PC counterpart.
29 • @24, etc. (by Sam Graf on 2013-06-03 19:59:19 GMT from United States)
I was wrong. "Ubuntu" is in Synaptic, Debian 7 Xfce. Sorry about that.
30 • Maintaining DNS Settings (by Ron on 2013-06-03 21:51:37 GMT from United States)
Jesse, thanks for the little writeup about the Google DNS server.
This is why I like to check Distrowatch every week - sometimes nice little tips appear from time to time.
I played around and learned a lot from this. Much better than reading all the complaining knuckleheads insulting one another on the comments section.
31 • 22 • @19 synaptic (by mandog on 2013-06-03 21:58:47 GMT from Peru)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_%28software%29
synaptic was created in 2001 as a front end for Apt and Debian, Ubuntu was not conceived then, It has only become default recently in Debian but has always been available,
PCLinux also uses synaptic so some one is going to say its forked from PClinux next.
Using the -f flag is not a very bright idea as it can break your system.
If you really want to use Ubuntu repros use Ubuntu they do a nice alternate install CD it used to use the Debian installer, Then build your own flavour it will be fast and low on resources if you do it correct,
If you really want to use Debian Stable that is what you get a stable distro just like Red Hat.
Siduction/aptosid are very similar but Siduction is devs try to be more friendly they are at the moment behind Ubuntu but that is temp as the repros are now moving again.
32 • #27 (by zykoda on 2013-06-03 21:59:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
As much as I applaud your philosophy of PC hardware upgrades, I doubt your current machine belongs to the 1992 era. 1992 is pre-ATX. It is not possible to easily upgrade such a machine to anywhere near a modern standard. One would need to start off with at least a ATX form; and almost every other component has changed since the dawn of ATX: memory (EDO, 133. ddr, ddr[2-5]), hard disk (BIOS limits, IDE, sata), graphics (PCI, AGP, PCI-E), CPU sockets, USB[1-3] for example. There are many blind alleys to avoid to achieve the "rolling PC".
33 • @32 (by fernbap on 2013-06-03 22:14:25 GMT from Portugal)
" I doubt your current machine belongs to the 1992 era."
That is exactly the point. My current computer has not a single piece from the "original" one (obviously). However, all was done incrementally, piece by piece.
I never had the need to buy a new computer, and neither would anyone.
34 • @32 @33 and just folow the comments on Bug #1 (by Bert07 on 2013-06-03 23:01:18 GMT from Belgium)
Not every one can assemble a computer.
I (for one) can not. I do not have the technical knowledge.
If I could, I would, because indeed, it is much cheaper.
And you have the choice on which OS to install on it.
I have only Dell computers; i do have to pay for the installed OS on every computer I buy. But Dell computers are fairiy compatible with Linux Systems, so it's a good way to go when using a Linux system. And Dell computers can be bought at a fairily good price if you do not need the latest processor(s).
35 • @34 Technical Knowledge (by Rev_Don on 2013-06-04 01:28:10 GMT from United States)
Do you think that those of us who build our own computers were born with the knowledge to do so? Of course not. We had to acquire that knowledge thru study and trial and error. The amount of technical knowledge on how to assemble a computer can be easily learned in an hour or two. I've seen children 6 years of age build their own computer, although a more realistic age would be 10 to 12. I know a quadriplegic who builds his own computers.
There are thousands of guides available on the internet with pictures that explain everything you need to know to build a computer from scratch, all it takes is some time to read a couple. Admittedly, it does take a bit of work, but you become a much better computer user after you acquire these skills.
Pick up an old computer at GoodWill, from Craigs List, or anywhere else for $20 or less, get a GOOD #2 Phillips Head Screwdriver, a small flashlight or table lamp, put an old towel down on a table or workbench, place a piece of cardboard or posterboard on the towel, put the old computer on the cardboard, then take the side panel off. Look over the inside of the case to see where everything is. Take a couple of pictures if you want so you will know where things go. Maybe write a few things down on a sheet (or sheets) of paper.
Now take it apart. Place the screws with each component, and place each component aside in a logical fashion so you will know where it goes. Take it ALL apart, every screw, cable, wire, fan, everything. Now put it all back together the way you took it apart and see if it runs. If so great. If not, start over and try to see what might be wrong. Even if it never runs again, it isn't money wasted.
Check with some of your friends, family members, neighbors, etc. to see of one (or more) of them are willing to help you with it. It can be a fun experience working with someone else who might be a bit more experienced.
36 • Bug 1 (by Toran Korshnah on 2013-06-04 01:44:31 GMT from Belgium)
Indeed really difficult to find a brand-PC without OS installed in Belgium. I would like to use Ubuntu on my Packard Bell, but I heard PB is not so keen on Linux. BTW install Linux when ur PC is dated, or you might loose garantee.
37 • aptosid, siduction and other Sid distros (by Hoos on 2013-06-04 01:48:06 GMT from Singapore)
I had a partition with Sidux some time ago at a time where I didn't have the time to carry out regular updates, and it fell into disuse.
I've since tried aptosid and siduction live a few other times. This may be shallow but I find the looks of these 2 distros (I tried the KDE version) very basic; I understand I could spruce it up myself and add all the non-free stuff, but don't want to have to spend the time to do it.
However, sidux and the 2 successors have great online manuals that I bookmark and refer to from time to time.
For Sid distros, I have installed Semplice 4 and one of the full-featured (ie kitchen-sink!) versions of LinuxBBQ. The looks are nice, and the usual non-free stuff come pre-installed. I try to update more regularly now.
For these 2, I don't follow the "leave X when you dist-upgrade" rules from sidux/aptosid/siduction, but if the updates include kernel and X-server updates, I just reboot when I'm done.
38 • LinuxMint 15, Ubuntu and Peppermint OS3 (by Carl Smuck on 2013-06-04 02:25:59 GMT from United States)
My computer is an old IBM Thinkpad T-60. It can only run 32 bit operating systems and cannot use more than 3 GB of RAM. But, that being said it can run LinuxMint 15 Cinnamon just fine. It also does an even better job of running Peppermint OS 3. Peppermint OS3 is rather old and is based on Lubuntu 12.04 LTS. The nice thing about that is it will be supported until like April of 2017. If you have a low spec PC that has very little in the way of system resources nothing will beat Peppermint OS 3 or Zorin OS 6 Lite. OS 4 is also a really nice linux distro as well. I have built my own desktop computers before. I once used to have dual core version of an AMD Athlon 64 system and I used to run 64 bit Zorin OS on it and it could really fly.
39 • @dragonmouth (by chowyunpat on 2013-06-04 02:40:25 GMT from United States)
"Since the leading PC suppliers (Dell, HP, etc.) buy parts in 100K lots or more, you cannot beat them on parts prices."
Sorry Dragonmouth, but that is not true, esp when you do a high end AMD build. I built an AMD 6core cpu for about $500 bucks with 8gb of ram, a 1gb graphics card, DVD burner, and a 1tb hard drive about 2 years ago and if you bought any similar from any of the big names it would have at least $1000 dollars for something similar from HP, Dell, etc and it still holds true today. The parts motherboards I use are manufactured by the exact same companies that Dell and HP use. You're just paying for a name.
40 • answer (by greg on 2013-06-04 06:28:15 GMT from Slovenia)
@9 • @greg (by Bert07)
quite right, but not everyone knows how to install the system and then (epsecially in windows) the needed drivers. which is why computers, phones, tablets often come preinstalled with the OS.
again in the area of PC i do believe that consumer should have at least a choice as to what kind of OS is installed.
also Belgium has been in EU for some time now. open border, free trade etc. - take advantage of it ;-)
12 • @ #1 and #3 (by Pierre)
thanks for the explanation on the difference. i wonder why it is not mentioned in the review. i mean surely it's important to know why is it different than Debian Sid (aside from wallpaper).
41 • @#22 (by Pierre on 2013-06-04 08:57:02 GMT from Germany)
Not being binary compatible means exactly that. Deb-packages that were packaged for Ubuntu are not compatible. In fact technical spoken there is no partial or fully or what so ever, only _not compatibel_.
Sure, both have a lot in common with each other. But this is because Ubuntu's deb-packages are based on Debian technology, nothing more, nothing less. And nevertheless forcing apt to install a package that has no full dependency match is possible and works, does not mean it's a very bad idea. And I promise this will definitely end up in broken packages and/or - if you do this with sensitive and system relevant packages - will lead to a broken and unusable system.
It's up to you to do such stupid things, although everything one can need is only few minutes of googling and editing the sources.list file away. I once again highly recommend to use Debian packages on a Debian system only and not to use incompatible packages, not matter if they are installable via apt or not.
And please, if you do such things, don't be one of the first complaining about an unstable or even unusable system, broken packages and don't demand for help such a mess then.
Just the same two cents like last week.
42 • @ #40 (by Pierre on 2013-06-04 09:06:50 GMT from Germany)
You are welcome, greg.
And I don't know why this wasn't mentioned in the review instead of belaboring the point that it's Debian sid and therefore unpredictable and what so ever.
In my opinion - and I used it as siduction and in the days it was still named sidux for quite some time - it's a great deal if you want cutting edge packages and a rolling release distro.
I had no problems with updates ever. It's not like with Arch, where you can end up with some problems although you did exactly what was said on the homepage. Maybe this is due to the still a little more conservative aproach of Debian, even in the testing and unstable repositories, compared to distros like Arch.
43 • building computers (by mz on 2013-06-04 10:10:11 GMT from United States)
I agree that building computers could be done easily by most people, but I really don't think that it's for all people. Take the example of changing the oil in a car, anyone who can find the drain plug, oil filter, and oil cap should be able to change their oil with a few turns of a wrench. Their are fewer parts and fewer things that can go wrong compared to building a PC, but people are intimidated by doing mechanical things. Not only are people intimidated, but some have a great lack of understanding. In the last Linux Action Show podcast it was mentioned that some lady asked a sales person if her new PC 'comes with cloud on it'. People that do so little research on a topic before making a purchase as expensive as a computer aren't going to figure out how to build a PC. I do however think anyone with a modest degree of technical competence could build a PC with few problems and install most versions of Linux with ease, but very few want to put in the effort to learn how to do so. I think this will remain a big problem for desktop Linux for some time to come, because even if installing Linux has become easy the very idea of installing an OS can be very intimidating to some.
44 • @42 (by mandog on 2013-06-04 12:30:18 GMT from Peru)
You are a bit off track with arch, If you bother to read the home page you have no problems at all. If you add things from AUR you can have problems. Arch makes that quite clear look at the latest update intervention it explains it quite well. Aptosid/Siduction are the same read the home page you can't go wrong add 3rd party software then you can run into problems, see the difference? there is not.
Building your own pc is straight forward if you can fit a plug in a socket and screw in a a screw you can do it its that simple to day, As for cost here in Peru to upgrade to a AMD 6 core + Nvidia 1 gb GPU, + Gigabyte MB. cost 756 soles about $300 or £ 200, and takes about 10 mins to assemble.
45 • Sidux/Aptosid (by Jon Wright on 2013-06-04 12:47:45 GMT from Vietnam)
> #17: "If aptosid's developers were a bit more on the friendly side....aptosid would be my main distribution ... Whenever I asked questions about how to get something done ... they were quite rude in their responses .. After they changed the name of the distro to aptosid, I figured I would give them another shot. Same peeps running the show....same rude attitude."
I was wondering if the Aptosid project had managed to make a fresh start - as I recall there were 'issues' - including financial issues. If the above quote is anything to go by it sounds like the issues haven't been resolved - I think it is remiss of Jesse not to mention some of the background.
46 • Building computers and installing O/S (by DavidEF on 2013-06-04 14:08:35 GMT from United States)
I believe that anyone who can assemble a toy, a bicycle, or a piece of furniture they bought from Wal-Mart, can build a computer. In fact, anyone who wants to can learn to do it. It is not a matter of having the knowledge, it's a matter of being willing to learn a little.
A friend of mine wanted a new computer, and he mentioned it to me while I was at his house one night. I told him he could get a better computer, for less money, if he built it himself. He knew how to use a computer, but had no clue (or at least very little) about the internal workings. I talked with him about it for a few minutes that night, and basically told him it isn't too hard, and he should give it a try, and I would help him if he wanted me to.
The next time I saw him, he had bought all the parts from Newegg.com, assembled them, and installed the O/S and reported that it was so much faster than his old computer, and it wasn't that hard to put together! He never needed my help at all.
47 • @46 (by fernbap on 2013-06-04 14:52:22 GMT from Portugal)
Thanks for your example, the same has indeed happened with a few of my friends (most of them, in fatc).
However, the analogy with changing the oil in a car is valid. Most people prefer to pay for a service that they don't want to get involved with.
I guess this issue will never be solved. People have priorities, and for many a computer is just a tool for browsing/text processing/mail. Under their own eyes, their computer is just that and they have no curiosity to even look at other funcionalities they could use on their own computers.
It is useless to try to convince them that assemblying a computer is easy and unless you are hopelessly technically challenged, the risks are minimal.
It is like riding a bicicle. Some people will never learn.
48 • People are not all the same; some should not assemble computers (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-06-04 15:42:46 GMT from United States)
They come in a wide variety of aptitudes and personalities.
I have fair mechanical aptitude, and get along with machines and computers, but to give my brother a wrench and aim him at his car would be courting disaster. He hires a mechanic for good reason, with what he earns with other talents and efforts.
Many computer parts manufacturers favor proprietary secrecy, and expect Microsoft to support their deliberate incompatibilities; BuildYourOwn requires homework (which parts work together?) and (API/driver) support.
49 • Build Your Own (by ezsit on 2013-06-04 20:24:19 GMT from United States)
I have been building my own computers since 1995, and upgrading my own computers since 1983.
The days of having to worry about proprietary parts passed over 20 years ago. Gone are the days when drive interfaces, memory densities, and video standards had to taken into account. Modern hardware configures itself when plugged in and powered on. Windows drivers are shipped with every component. All the plugs only fit in one direction and the parts just snap together. It could not be easier to build your own these days.
However, the process is not for everyone and most people lack the desire to learn. That's fine, it keeps some money flowing into the business. The people who complain about lack of choice are being a bit disingenuous in that they are probably the ones most likely able to build their own.
If you are expecting to save money, be prepared not to save so much. Once you start buying your own components, it is very easy to spend a little more for the better products, and eventually you will have spent more than you anticipated.
50 • Building your own computer. (by afcas86 on 2013-06-04 20:32:31 GMT from United States)
The core of a computer is the motherboard and virtually all the board manufacturers have good manuals to tell you most of what you need to do to install it properly. They have good reason to do so; tech support would cost them too much.
The main problem I have encountered is the mounting of the board. After assembling a few computers, most people figure out that it is useful to put the plain board down on a table and install the RAM,processor and fan, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and CD ROM and boot a simple operating system. I like Puppy Linux for that reason (and more). Once you are sure you have functioning parts, you can mount the motherboard into the case, being careful that nothing metallic touches the board (except to what are clearly large solder rings around mounting screw holes, or metallic shields around connectors) i.e., pre-installed or previous unused metallic standoffs in the computer case whose locations fit the old motherboard but not the new one. Another caution, you CAN force a 4 pin power connector onto a connector for which is it not keyed because of the softness of the plastic. Don't be in a rush and use common sense. Look carefully at the connectors and their mating connectors, to see they are 'keyed' the same. If you have to get up and do something else before you are totally finished, coming back, first touch something grounded like the case of the power supply or the metal shield around the keyboard/mouse/network connectors.
Buying compatible parts: If where you buy the parts has phone support, they will often help you select parts that are compatible (or have kits of parts); they don't want unhappy customers and getting their new parts quickly turned into used ones(returns).
Summary: If the individual parts come in a box, they have directions inside. Reading the directions is how everyone else learned how to build computers.
51 • On the cutting edge of what? Playing with the system? (by os2er on 2013-06-05 01:27:49 GMT from United States)
Can't see the point of constant change in aptosid -- or others, even the supposed opposite Debian. I just want to USE the system, not constantly tinker with it -- fearing it'll break and trash everything on the drive! How the hell is that an advance? -- Just get Windows, then!
Here's an example of needless tweaking from Mint 15 from the first page: "login screen can now be themed in HTML 5". Whee. That capability adds nothing except clutter.
Meanwhile, as I mentioned some weeks ago, GUIs keep dropping actual function from the top level, as in I never managed to find the existing hard drive with Knoppix.
Seems like all is being constantly dumbed down with constant changes forced, again just like Windows: you don't need a "Start" menu, here, use this touch interface on the desktop...
52 • @greg #8 (by demosthenese on 2013-06-05 01:29:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
There is no such European directive. Plenty of uk outlets sell systems without an os.
53 • 36 about "breaking the warranty" by Toran Korshnah (by meanpt on 2013-06-05 01:30:30 GMT from Portugal)
There is a clean and convenient workaround: install linux either on a (recommended as the minimum) class 4 sd card or usb pen, either on an external hd. I've done that with bodhi and kubuntu, but tried and gave up of using Ubuntu, even after installing the gnome panel and get rid of all those crappy lens.
54 • @52 (by greg on 2013-06-05 06:09:18 GMT from Slovenia)
then it must be in our country.
i know that a consumer (at least here) has the right to have the appliance/device plugged in in the shop to see that it all (components) works as it should - a demo of sorts. you couldn't do that without an OS on a computer.
55 • @50 (etc) re building PCs (by Adam Williamson on 2013-06-05 06:10:56 GMT from Canada)
I build my own systems.
But then, yesterday my washing machine broke. I called my handyman. He came out today, spent about 20 minutes fiddling with it, and fixed it. For which I paid him $85.
I'm sure I can find a washing machine enthusiast forum somewhere where people will laugh at me for paying a guy $85 to fix my washing machine when I could've done it myself for $5 if I'd only spent the week reading parts manuals and cursing at a screwdriver. But I didn't. I paid a guy $85 to do it for me, and I'm happy I did.
There are very few people who are willing to make the commitment required to build and maintain all their Stuff themselves. Most of us are going to pick and choose. You and I pick building computers; but I bet you don't fix your own washing machine, dryer, dishwasher, plumbing, car, cook your own food, *grow* your own food, build your own furniture...
People specialize. It's a perfectly reasonable decision for someone to say 'look, building computers is one of the things I'm going to pay someone else to do instead of putting the time and effort in to do myself'. I think you're arguing too hard at this belief that everyone ought to build their own computer. It is not going to happen.
(And it's more complex than you're trying to make out, too; it's so much fun when you buy a universal HSF that comes with six different adapter kits for different CPU socket types and an instruction sheet that was written in Taiwanese and translated via Google, for instance. Or just buy RAM that is incompatible with your motherboard, which has happened to me the last three fracking times I built or upgraded a system.)
56 • @ 41 by Pierre (by Chanath on 2013-06-05 07:54:04 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Breaking the system or complaining about it? I don't complain about breaking the system, I play with. I have few partitions for that. Deb packages in the launchpad can be installed in Debian, 6 or 7. Those deb packages are for Ubuntu, but still they can be installed. There is no real need to use -f install, but just to avoid installing dependencies one by one. By using -f install, after normal apt-get install shows you of the lack of dependencies at that given moment. I watch the installation in the Terminal, so I know what's being installed. If I break it, which I rarely do, I reinstall and start from the beginning. It doesn't take much time.
I keep a Precise installation too, as its life time is until 2017. That is being nicely updated & upgraded, new kernels added etc. Even with the 3.2 kernel Precise came with more than a year ago, it is still snappier and modern than Debian 7. Ubuntu Precise was based on Wheezy, so it was already bleeding edge when it was released. The frozen wheezy was just released with Debian 7 few weeks ago.
If one doesn't experiment with Linux distros, what the use? The nicest part of the Linux world is that. Those days, we played with Win XP and made mini and micro XPs, but what the use, as they can't be given away? Whatever you come up by redoing a Linux distro can be given away freely.
I suppose, you guys know about SolusOs2. It is being made, because of the upstream problems. They are making a revolutionary new distro. Ikey is the one, who started LMDE.
57 • Building PCs (by Chanath on 2013-06-05 08:01:58 GMT from Sri Lanka)
It was pretty nice building them. Here is a tutorial. Of course, it talks about installing windows, but that's not a problem for our Linux guys. http://lifehacker.com/5828747/how-to-build-a-computer-from-scratch-the-complete-guide
58 • @57 (by greg on 2013-06-05 09:37:48 GMT from Slovenia)
I am sure it was nice building them. there are also interesting TV series where this guy builds a car, a helicopter and a plane from scratch.
not to wander too offtopic you can even build your OS from scratch: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
doesn't mean i have the time, will, knowledge or the patience to do it.
though i sure enjoyed watching that guy building stuff from scratch (fast forward TV magic makes it all bearable...)
59 • aptosid and siduction (by Coolio on 2013-06-05 11:51:10 GMT from Germany)
Jesse reviews aptosid and people talk about siduction. He probably tried the wrong distro…
60 • @ #59 • aptosid and siduction (by Coolio) (by Pierre on 2013-06-05 13:12:46 GMT from Germany)
Maybe it's because they are quite the same with only very little differences.
61 • re #60 (by Coolio on 2013-06-05 17:14:59 GMT from Germany)
they have pretty much nothing in common except for the debian base. when was the last time you compared them?
62 • @ #61 (by Pierre on 2013-06-06 07:22:05 GMT from Germany)
Maybe I did not compare them in detail sufficiently enough in your point of view. But even if you compare them in detail you will recognize a lot both have in common.
In fact the base is much to have in common alltogether.
The description on distrowatch for siduction: "Forked from aptosid in late 2011, [...]."
And in my opinion you still can't use it without recognizing the similarities. Additionally both try to deliver a stabilized Debian sid for the desktop and although they might go slightly different ways and have different approaches on accomplishing their goals it's not to be missed that they once have been one project: sidux.
So it's much they have in common you call 'nothing'...
63 • @ #61 - addition (by Pierre on 2013-06-06 07:25:33 GMT from Germany)
Just one addition still:
Have a look at the homepages of both projects ... hard to overlook that even their homepages are only slightly different. ;-)
64 • Prism and Direct Access to your Data (by gee7 on 2013-06-07 16:51:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
@65@66
Agreed. That's what I do too.
I'm a big fan of Firefox and use Midori regularly too. As far as it is possible in this difficult world of competition and business power games, I actually trust both of them.
For those who haven't caught the Prism story, see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data
Note that Jameel Jaffer, director of the ACLU's Center for Democracy, said, "This is unprecedented militarisation of domestic communications infrastructure."
Google, Apple and Microsoft are denying that they allow communications to be directly accessed by the US Government's security agency however, and the allegations may never be proved. We shall have to wait and see if anything further comes to light.
Number of Comments: 64
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