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1 • Here we go again (by Anonymous Distrohopper on 2013-05-27 09:30:04 GMT from Spain)
"Linux" is not a company with "resources" to allocate.
Linux is about freedom and choice. CHOICE IS GOOD! Your choices are not like mine, nor they should be. There's room for everyone. This is not MS or Apple.
What's so bad about people scratching their itch and sharing it with the world? How come so many individuals are so offended by the mere existence of some distro/derivative?
Not interested? Feel free to ignore them. It's your CHOICE.
When you go all "my way or the highway", you end up with fiascos like the current Ubuntu.
2 • Ports (within or without storms) (by Gratuitous optimist on 2013-05-27 11:06:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
" ...but the bottom line is a port is typically a piece of software running outside of its original environment."
Except for in networking, where it isn't. See /etc/services for the gory details, if you like seeing gory details of port number assignments.
Bottom line is that 'ports' is ambiguous and we are all helped by the reminder that a little bit of disambiguation goes a long way.
3 • Distrowatch & Ubuntu (by John Erike on 2013-05-27 11:12:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am irritated by your eagerness grasp any and every opportunity to make negative, misleading remarks about Ubuntu, and today's Issue 509 of Distrowatch Weekly was no exception.
Having briefly mentioned a recent Q&A session by Mark Shuttleworth, you say: 'On a related note, the latest issue of Linux Format, the world's premier English-language Linux magazine, is asking what many people have been quietly (or otherwise) wondering for months: "Has Ubuntu lost it?"' The 'On a related note...' is a good example of what I mean by the publication's eagerness grasp any and every opportunity to make negative, misleading remarks.
My suspicions were immediately raised when, contrary to your usual practice, you provided no excerpt from Linux Format summarising their views. So I had a look for myself and found this at the conclusion of Linux Format's review of Ubuntu 13.04: "Has Ubuntu lost it? No. But this isn't the same Ubuntu you fell in love with in 2004. And almost ten years later, that can only be a good thing.'
Your piece suggests that 'the world's premier English-language Linux magazine' is of the view that Ubuntu has 'lost it' whereas the truth is that it commends Ubuntu for being innovative.
Using a misleading headline from Linux Magazine as a fig leaf for 'what many people have been quietly (or otherwise) wondering for months,' i.e., for the prejudices of Distrowatch's Editorial Board, is shabby and unprofessional. It simply confirms me in the view that so far as Ubuntu is concerned, anything that Distrowatch might have to say should be ignored and more balanced views sought elsewhere.
Yours in exasperation.
4 • Ubuntu Dropping Like A rock (by Ghostwheel on 2013-05-27 11:35:19 GMT from United States)
In the PHR.
No wonder with how it is sucking so badly, recently.
Even Dedoimedo has sworn off it in his latest review listed here..
5 • Just yesterday I performed a netinstall of Mageia 3 on (by Willie Green on 2013-05-27 11:41:00 GMT from United States)
my archaic P4 Compaq EVO home desktop (20 Gb HD, 1 Gb RAM), and so far, couldn't be more pleased with the results. It is becoming more and more difficult to find mainstream distros that install easily on these older machines, yet Mageia installation went flawlessly.
Naturally, I avoided installing either KDE or Gnome desktops and chose "Custom" instead. However, I was disappointed when the next "package selection" screen once again offered KDE and Gnome, along with LXDE and "Other." Where were Xfce, IceWM, Razor-qt, Fluxbox and all the other lightweight options that I've come to rely on?
Of course I understand that these other options were still available with the more laborious individual package selection. It's just that I would have preferred having more 1-click options than just KDE, Gnome and LXDE.
6 • Ubuntu 13.04 (by Ari Torres on 2013-05-27 12:07:08 GMT from United States)
Canonical and the Ubuntu Team has just released an unfinished product,still beta with lots of bugs.Canonical should take a pause and really test their releases deeper before it goes out to the world.I still prefer Ubuntu over any other Distro but my patience is running thin.The only good thing about it is sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback my 2 cents.
7 • SalixOS - easy to upgrade (by Barnabyh on 2013-05-27 12:11:58 GMT from Germany)
Salix had a lot of momentum going after its inception but recently has dropped a bit out of the limelight (and in the rankings).
I've just had the opportunity to dust off my old towers and upgraded one that originally had 13.0.2 Xfce installed back in the day from 13.1 to 13.37 and to 14.0 straight after that. No hiccups whatsoever. It's nice to find a distribution where upgrade instructions actually work if followed and it all goes as it says on the tin. IMO this is one of the best distributions around for upgrading and of course it is based on Slackware which probably has something to do with it. I now have a system that hasn't been reinstalled since 2009 running the 3.8.13 kernel from Current.
Some minor problem with ralink USB adapters which I managed to sort out. You can read details here if interested in how to get ralink usb wireless to work. http://www.salixos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4686
8 • @4 Ubuntu Dropping and PHR (by RealityCheck on 2013-05-27 12:13:51 GMT from United States)
PHR is a worthless stat and the Linux community would be best served if it was discontinued. It is non-scientific and simply allows people to make unwarranted conclusions.
Case in point in the past year, the firm I work with has completed three large scale desktop Ubuntu deployments in the US. By August, we will have a large school system with 8,000 seats added to that list making a total of 4 projects. I am pretty confident in saying none of those users every click on the PHR listings.
Ubuntu has its problems, but so do Redhat/Fedora and Suse/OpenSuse and <insert your major distro here>.
In the real world, people could care less about PHR.
9 • "Has Ubuntu Lost IT?" (by Keith on 2013-05-27 12:25:20 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu is no longer the all-conquering force that it was. So what's happened?"
The same thing is happening to MicroSoft and Windows 8. When you completely ignore and disregard the end-user, you're going to lose customers. The Kinks said it best - "Give the people what they want!"
10 • Re: RebeccaBlackOS (by silent on 2013-05-27 12:59:00 GMT from France)
Although Ms. Black is surely a great singer and lots of people love Friday and her songs, it is probably not a good idea to choose her name for a Linux flavour without her approval as this may trigger legal action. On the other hand I think that a Live CD technology preview of Wayland and Weston at this stage should be lighter than 1.7GB.
11 • @1 (by dragonmouth on 2013-05-27 13:42:43 GMT from United States)
"How come so many individuals are so offended by the mere existence of some distro/derivative?"
It is not a question of "individuals being offended", it is a question of dispersion of effort, of wasted effort. Most of the time when an individual "scratches an itch" and presents the unsuspecting world with another just barely different version of some distro, he is re-inventing the wheel for the most part. Why not work within the framework of existing distros? Is it perhaps because there is no "I" in team? IMO, many of these "scratch an itch" distros are nothing more than vanity distros - "Look at ME world, I can crank out a Linux distro!". When you have ten people each pulling their way, they accomplish very little. OTOH, if they pull together, they can accomplish a great deal.
"When you go all "my way or the highway""
Your insistence on unfettered distro creation is also an example of "my way or the highway". In your opinion no discussion about the balkanization of Linux can be allowed.
12 • What's WRONG with Arch Made easy aka "Antergos"? (by Brad on 2013-05-27 13:54:18 GMT from United States)
I've personally used arch since 2009, when it had an installer, I printed out the 35 page install instructions. Installed it more times than I can count, lots of trial and error and I learned something.. even installed Gentoo stage 5 years ago.. What's wrong with someone simplifying the process? (since arch got rid of their installer in favor of scripts, that don't always seem to work like they say they do..) and Heaven forbid you ask for help on Arch forums, or for someone to explain a step to you.. copy and paste too much for a post, or ask a question that has been answered 20x but the answers don't help YOU.. I've tried arch bang, bridgelinux, chakra, cinnarch, manjaro , they all have their strengths & weaknesses.. not that arch devs really like them, I've seen the posts made by devs/admins trashing the forks of their elitist baby! Arch gives you choice its all about KISS, so are the forks.. the choice to not have to endure the ridicule of asking a question you really need help with. I posted the question of why did arch get rid of the installer when the forks have it, is there something about maintaining it that's hard to do? The answer was simple.. "of course these other distros dont have to do all the work we do, so it's easy for them to keep the installer when we do all the work for them" Isn't that what "FORKS" Of linux are; someone changing something, ANYTHING for whatever reason, and building on someone elses work, sometimes making it EASIER, BETTER, more accessible to a wider audience? aka Debian>Ubuntu>mint Slackware>salix, vector, zenwalk Gentoo>sabayon Mandrake>mandriva>pclinuxos Ubuntu>a million spinoffs? Its all about choice.. please don't talk about linux being about freedom of choice, then bash groups of people for making an "easier" choice than you did.. that's my .02 now I'm broke
13 • Welcome Debian GNU/ Hurd and (by TransformHumanity on 2013-05-27 14:10:59 GMT from India)
... thank you RMS for your persistence!
Welcome Debian GNU/ Hurd! Is this the answer to Linux patent trolls?
I am always curious why no one ever actually puts up the ¨list of patents¨ someone claims linux violates - and actually dare to assert them!
#1 Anonymous Distrohopper loses his philosophy when thinking about Ubuntu? Feel free to ignore it; its your choice!
14 • Anti-Ubuntu, or just ignorant? @3 (by gregzeng on 2013-05-27 14:20:15 GMT from Australia)
@3: "any and every opportunity to make negative, misleading remarks about Ubuntu".
Distrowatch commentators are generally anti-U, but the named contributor you mention is not Distrowatch. In previous comments here, I have tried to show, using its own measurements, that the 'buntu-derivatives are the favored Linux distros; not Ubuntu, not Mint -- as Distrowatch's records claim.
In the last few years, nearly all commentators are negative on Ubuntu's performance. As a full-time retiree for decades now (no dependents), I digest all audio-podcasts, most hardcopy magazines, and soft copy (mostly Youtube). Linux commentators are generally anti-Canonical, but favoring the 'buntu-based distros, especially Mint.
Not all negative commentators are professional journalists. Some are Linux-pushers who code, have senior positions in the computer industries, all over the planet. Many distro-creators are so dubious of Canonical's Ubuntu, that they base distros on Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Kubuntu, or even risk-adverse Debian.
Distrowatch itself gave me the Link to the worst ever review of Ubuntu 13.04 I have seen or heard. http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/ubuntu-ringtail-high-end.html
If Distrowatch ever recognized Youtube, then it would have pointed to a mild mannered review, after withdrawing his first !@#$! review:
"Ubuntu 13.04 is a piece of ...."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOPRsmRCZL8
Although I'm not a fanboy of Canonical, now I value its owning the updates to Kernel 3.8. This benefits ALL Linux users, whether they be Debian-based or not.
Many multinational conglomerates are easily making big mistakes in a multicultural planet, including Canonical, Microsoft, Apple, etc. Intellectually & academically the critics of all multinational organizations are dismayed by humanity's ignorance of multicultural management. At this moment in cultural evolution within homo sapiens, these sciences still are very primitive.
Rather than the childish game of shooting the messengers (including Distrowatch & myself) - please acknowledge that we are correct in letting you know about opinions that are not always agreeing with your opinions.
15 • Ubuntu review in Linux Format (by Sesostris III on 2013-05-27 15:31:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
@3 Yes, I've got the dead-tree version of Linux Format (I subscribe), and I noted the rather good review of 13.04. The "Has Ubuntu lost it?" was a second article in the magazine that was more of a discussion around all the recent issues and controversies rather than a review of the product itself. (A better title might have been "Has Canonical lost it?"). I would say there is still a future for both Ubuntu and Canonical!
@9 "When you completely ignore and disregard the end-user, you're going to lose customers". Well, in the review of 13.04 mentioned above, Ubuntu was awarded 10/10 (i.e. full marks) for "Ease of Use" (and 9/10 overall). A strange evaluation, if they were disregarding their end-users!
16 • @ Susan Linton re: Fonts (by SilentSam on 2013-05-27 15:31:09 GMT from Canada)
Hi Susan,
In your review you mentioned the Mageia fonts were ugly by default. What distro do you find actually has nice fonts OOTB (especially in KDE), and what do you usually do to beautify your fonts afterwards?
17 • Mageia (by David McCann on 2013-05-27 16:11:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
I too have been trying Mageia on a 32-bit machine, using the installation DVD (after the net installation failed). I asked for Xfce and got part of it, but all of KDE. I deleted KDE and found that LibreOffice and various other items had been deleted as "dependencies". I repaired the damage, rebooted, and found myself using Icewm! Amarok and Skrooge both crashed with illegal instruction errors. You don't want to hear about the rest...
Anne Nicolas got it right when she spoke of the difficulty in getting people to de-bug: it looks like all their attention went on the 64-bit version — a bit like Ubuntu!
18 • @ 15 (by Keith on 2013-05-27 16:17:04 GMT from United States)
I understand your point, but it isn't that simple. I'll use Widows as the example here. I'm quite certain there is at least one review out on the web that gives Windows 8 a 10/10. I'm sure there was, at one time, a review that gave Vista and ME a 10/10. But one review is not the benchmark to go by. MS sales of 8 are BAD! Why? Because of the feedback of the "end-user". Reading an article that says "it's great" isn't the same as an actual hands-on experience. Fortunately, in the Linux community, each of us can sample a large variety of operating systems for our own personal evaluation. I used to run Ubuntu 10.04, and thought there was no better system in the world...at that time. Since then, I don't care for the changes that have been made to Ubuntu, and many other people on the web have expressed the same sentiments. After Ubuntu, I moved to Mint. The Mint community does seem to have leadership that will listen to its end-users. So, rather than follow a "company" that's going to ignore me, I'm going with the one that will strive to improve customer satisfaction by involving the customer/end-user. I still stand by what I said before - they (Ubuntu) don't listen to their customers.
19 • Puppy Linux 5.6 "Precise" edition (by capricornus on 2013-05-27 16:24:25 GMT from Belgium)
I love "Woef" but since I use VirtualBox, this is not the distro of choice. The puppy doesn't adapt to dual screen 1440x900. It does things you'd expect, and then does things you just don't like. It is like a Jack Russell, they are alife and kicking, but often don't adapt to their environment.
20 • Wasted resources, PHRs (by Arkanabar on 2013-05-27 16:26:21 GMT from United States)
@1: I get the feeling that Hairyfeet just doesn't "get" the voluntarist nature of Linux development, and how that leads to splintering. Dragonmouth apparently discounts the value people get from doing things for fun. There are lots of people who are willing to work on their little vanity projects and itch-scratchers, but nothing else. The effort is not wasted. It is the only part of GNU/Linux development that they're willing to do. If it doesn't help anyone else, that really is not a loss. Complaints that vanity projects are a "waste of resources" are about as reasonable as complaints that people waste their time with ANY hobby instead of contributing to directed GNU/Linux development, especially in QA.
I have no issue with the PHRs. I like to remind people that what they actually measure is the level of interest in a distro among DWW readers. The PHRs are of interest to me. Odds are I won't have much interest in using any distro that isn't in the top 100.
21 • @ #3 - Distrowatch & Ubuntu (by John Erike) (by Pierre on 2013-05-27 17:12:33 GMT from Germany)
Linking reviews might happen for various reasons. To say it's for bashing Ubuntu is an unproven claim out of vague assumptions you make. To me it seems you are a little oversensitive regarding the Ubuntu topic.
At least you will have to admit that Canonical made a lot unpopular decisions in last few months and years resulting in more or less negative reviews and the fall in Distrowatch rankings.
You can have a different view on these decisions and reviews and you can find the reactions inappropriate but you should be careful with accusing Distrowatch of being anti-Ubuntu and making bad and negative propaganda.
22 • @ #7 • SalixOS - easy to upgrade (by Barnabyh) (by Pierre on 2013-05-27 17:23:29 GMT from Germany)
Nice to read about SalixOS once again. I used it months/years ago for a few months and really liked it.
I started using other distros instead because I don't like slapt-get much and the repositories are quite small. I know with Slackware behind it you have a huge collection of SlackBuilds available but I have to be honest that I am a fan of binary packages and like to manage software with a good package manager.
So it's about me and not about Salix that I stopped using it. To date it was the most stable distro I ever used and the only one where all the apps works, even some java-based websites other distro's java versions were never able to deal with.
So if you an happy with using SlackBuild for most of the less popular apps you get a nearly perfect distro here.
23 • @ 8: Ubuntu Dropping (by Ghostwheel on 2013-05-27 18:03:48 GMT from United States)
The PHR is indicative of trends, whether you agree or not.
I expressed my opinion, you expressed yours.
Don't pretend that yours has any more value than mine.
24 • Ubuntu... the continuing saga. (by Padi on 2013-05-27 18:19:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am also someone who continues to return to Ubuntu, but I feel that this may be about to change. Like many I was severely dismayed when Canonical decided to impose the dreadful Unity desktop environment on us, thus ditching what had become probably the best loved Linux desktop, Gnome 2. It worked, and in my opinion, was much better than anything Windows offered us.
True, Gnome themselves had stopped developing and supporting Gnome 2 and regressed to Gnome 3. Like many, I am now using Gnome 3 in 'Classic' mode, as I don't want a Mac lookalike, (I'd buy a Mac if I wanted that).
I do understand that Canonical is trying to present us with a unified operating system that spans several platforms, however these platforms are so dissimilar that the 'one size fits all' approach is going to largely fail. A mobile phone interface belongs on a mobile phone, and it's bigger sister, the tablet pc. A desktop is a different beast, used for actually doing things, you know, being productive. A mobile phone interface on a desktop is just daft! It's possibly very indicative that Ubuntu Studio early dumped Unity as being totally unsuitable, and standardised on the Xfce desktop.
I do often wonder about why a winning format has to be constantly changed - the old saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' comes to mind, and that is exactly what Ubuntu, (and the Gnome team with Gnome 3) seem to be doing. Yes, of course a mobile device needs a specific interface, and a desktop interface clearly wouldn't be suitable, but the converse is also true. And though I am being facetious in referring to Unity as a mobile phone interface, it's an accurate enough description. I'm aware that some will be huge fans of the Unity interface, certainly Joey Sneddon of OMG! Ubuntu seems to be of that ilk, but one wonders if Unity fans actually do anything but socially network, play games or surf the web with their computers?
It was around 1916 that it was Cadillac that came up with the car control layout we are familiar with today, nearly a hundred years later. The common pickaxe design was perfected milennia ago and a Roman soldier would be as familiar with the design as we are. Once something reaches it's optimum design there is no need to change it - by all means offer exotic and interesting alternatives, but alienating a large number of previously faithful users is stupid.
I'm on Ubuntu 12.04 using Gnome Classic, but it has so many bugs and isn't exactly like Gnome 2, so I am searching for an alternative. I tried the SolusOS A7 distro, and was very impressed, especially considering it was still very much an alpha, or 'proof of concept' release. Whist it lacked a little polish and a little functionality, it was amazingly stable, and used a different version of Gnome 3 that almost exactly emulated the Gnome 2 interface. It's now not available, but is still under development, and I for one will be keeping an eye on this very promising distro.
25 • Tweak or not tweak is the question (by avelinus on 2013-05-27 19:12:15 GMT from Portugal)
The best I encounter today remains Zorin 3 32bit with Gnome 2.30.2 and Kernel 2.6.32.47. Also with Libre Office 4.0, Skype 4.0. No bugs or Kernel Panic.
The only drawback is still not recognizing my printer Canon Mg 5350 only possible in versions based on Ubuntu 10.10 and later.
That's why I always test other alternatives; like Sabayon KDE and KDE Mageia because they are easy to adjust but have some quirks that make me always come back to my installation Zorin 3 easily and with Remastresys or Garfio 2.3.
26 • Mentioning the Linux Format article (by cflow on 2013-05-27 19:12:48 GMT from United States)
For one thing, all the link Distrowatch mentions are for subscribers, and I often shy away from magazine subscriptions. I guess I'll need to wait a month or so so to read and judge it...
However, I do find the cover title totally sensationalist and dramatic - and something done to catch the attention of more readers. A broken Ubuntu logo... how envigorating! Looking at how Distrowatch just puts up this article, they see how the title puts up something for commenters to debate here. And why not - has Ubuntu really lost its mind?! Given the reviews of it on certain hardware, many assume it has! The world's ending for the open source juggernaut! Eeeeeek!
Yet, a couple of commenters actually _read_ the article and found that in conclusion, that Ubuntu is just going through a transformation that makes them different from 10 years ago, that no, it hasn't lot it mind. Then, after that, a review in the _same_ issue gave Ubuntu good grades. In such, the drama is less than what is really bargained for from the cover of the magazine. The cover is just there for media attention... Thanks for spoiling the drama for me, commenters!
27 • @Arkanabar (by dragonmouth on 2013-05-27 19:23:35 GMT from United States)
"Dragonmouth apparently discounts the value people get from doing things for fun."
I do things for fun and I have hobbies but I do not have an uncontrollable urge to inflict the results on the rest of the world. I am secure enough with my self-image that I do not need to see my name up in lights or attached to a distro.
28 • @24 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-27 19:41:31 GMT from Canada)
"the old saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' comes to mind, and that is exactly what Ubuntu, (and the Gnome team with Gnome 3) seem to be doing"
it's simply a question of differing perceptions on whether something is 'broke' or not. You didn't consider GNOME 2 to be 'broke' because it suited your needs and worked for you. Canonical and the GNOME developers both considered GNOME 2 to be 'broke' from their perspectives, both because it was becoming antiquated in interface and architecture terms and because it required too much work to maintain as a codebase. These are issues of perspective as much as anything.
29 • Ubuntu (by coss_michael on 2013-05-27 19:42:01 GMT from United States)
I just did a search on DistroWatch, and there are 80 distributions based on Ubuntu. With that in mind, I find it hard to give credence to the idea that Ubuntu is losing it. Indeed, with so many distros using it for a base, it's got to be doing something right. No other distribution comes close to having as many others basing their version upon it. That's a pretty telling story in my book.
30 • THIS DESERVES TO BE REPEATED...THANKS JOHN (by kenjite on 2013-05-27 20:53:40 GMT from Germany)
I am irritated by your eagerness grasp any and every opportunity to make negative, misleading remarks about Ubuntu, and today's Issue 509 of Distrowatch Weekly was no exception.
Having briefly mentioned a recent Q&A session by Mark Shuttleworth, you say: 'On a related note, the latest issue of Linux Format, the world's premier English-language Linux magazine, is asking what many people have been quietly (or otherwise) wondering for months: "Has Ubuntu lost it?"' The 'On a related note...' is a good example of what I mean by the publication's eagerness grasp any and every opportunity to make negative, misleading remarks.
My suspicions were immediately raised when, contrary to your usual practice, you provided no excerpt from Linux Format summarising their views. So I had a look for myself and found this at the conclusion of Linux Format's review of Ubuntu 13.04: "Has Ubuntu lost it? No. But this isn't the same Ubuntu you fell in love with in 2004. And almost ten years later, that can only be a good thing.'
Your piece suggests that 'the world's premier English-language Linux magazine' is of the view that Ubuntu has 'lost it' whereas the truth is that it commends Ubuntu for being innovative.
Using a misleading headline from Linux Magazine as a fig leaf for 'what many people have been quietly (or otherwise) wondering for months,' i.e., for the prejudices of Distrowatch's Editorial Board, is shabby and unprofessional. It simply confirms me in the view that so far as Ubuntu is concerned, anything that Distrowatch might have to say should be ignored and more balanced views sought elsewhere.
31 • @30 THIS DESERVES TO BE REPEATED (by Caprica on 2013-05-27 21:11:32 GMT from United States)
Well stated. The people on this site seem to be a bunch of hobbyist.
32 • Ubuntu (by Ari Torres on 2013-05-27 21:19:27 GMT from United States)
There is nothing more irritating that Ubuntu itself,this community including the Forums will not accept that they have a lame release and indeed their last release is full of bugs that were never fixed prior to the April release.Ubuntu 13.04 is still at a bad Beta Stage worse of it they won't admit to it.
33 • @ #29 (by coss_michael) (by Pierre on 2013-05-27 21:27:48 GMT from Germany)
Well, I tell you what: Search for Debian as a base and you will find not less than 141 distributions.
Just to illustrate to you where the technology comes from that made Ubuntu and every other Ubuntu based distro possible anyway. :)
34 • Font beautification in KDE (by eco2geek on 2013-05-27 21:27:53 GMT from United States)
(This goes for most KDE distros, not just Mageia.) Your fonts will probably look better on your LCD monitor if you bring up System Settings > Application Appearance > Fonts, then change "Use anti-aliasing" to "Enabled", click the "Use sub-pixel rendering", and then choose the linear ordering (i.e. "RGB") and the hinting style that look the best to you. Log out, then log back in.
35 • I <3 Ubuntu (by zero cents on 2013-05-27 21:31:46 GMT from Finland)
I'm using Ubuntu 13.04 and everything works and it's fast. I can't say anything about Mageia 'cause it doesn't boot at all so I can't install it on my laptop. Debian wants to stop and restart my hard drive all the time. Linux Mint is alright, but for some reason when I enter my password and hit enter I have to look at a black screen for a few seconds before Cinnamon shows up. Unity does show up right away.
I had to install adobe-flashplugin myself in LM 13 because mint-flashplugin gives an out of date warning in Chrome. And caja-dropbox is empty so I would have to install newer fixed version than what's in the repos to get Dropbox working. Two problems that could be fixed easily, but all Mint devs do is concentrate on the next version. Canonical does fix problems in older still supported versions.
36 • The continuing fight over Unity and GNOME3 (by eco2geek on 2013-05-27 21:47:45 GMT from United States)
Adam's got a point; it's all a matter of perspective.
Not that I'm as "Switzerland" as he is. I have strong feelings about both Unity and GNOME3. I think Unity is a clunky mess that I'm never going to use, at least on the desktop. "Innovation" usually implies progress, and Unity, IMHO, isn't progress. It doesn't make my life easier; it gets in my way. IMHO, Unity fans are very concerned with shiny desktops, and how important their shiny desktops are to attracting new users away from other operating systems -- unlike the rest of you "hobbyists."
I feel the same way, to a lesser extent, about GNOME3. At least the GNOME3 developers built in mechanisms that allow the UI to be modified and extended.
But that doesn't mean I'm "anti-Ubuntu." I use Kubuntu and Xubuntu extensively, both of which use the same base and the same repositories that Ubuntu does. What's good for Ubuntu is ultimately good for Kubuntu and Xubuntu.
Nor do my strong opinions mean that anyone else cares. The GNOME3 devs aren't going to revive GNOME2 in order to assuage my feelings.
Different people think differently.
37 • Ubuntu (by Nate Pennet on 2013-05-27 23:09:26 GMT from United States)
#3 does have a point in saying that that quote was misleading, as to the rest, I don't know. I have my own opinions regarding Ubuntu.
You cannot deny that Ubuntu is going in a direction that Linux distributions have avoided, it was plain to see when Amazon was integrated and it's even clearer now on their current homepage where they advertise for Asus.
Amazon's policies are far from fair and other ideals taken at hart by most Linux distributions, and promoting specifically one manufacturer, albeit a historically great one, falls under the same category. The only commercialism we've seen with Linux has been via support (mostly) so changing the game the way Canonical does rubs most of us the wrong way, feels like selling out.
38 • Ubuntu's Goals (by Peter Besenbruch on 2013-05-28 00:28:17 GMT from United States)
I suspect that Canonical wants to make money. Its owner, Mark Shuttleworth, isn't pushing Ubuntu versions out there for people's use out of the kindness of his heart. The man wants to make money. The changes to Ubuntu make sense in this context.
The increased use of search, and the bundling of advertisements reflect the push to monetize Linux. If you need money, you will tend to downplay privacy concerns, and make everything "opt out" by default.
The increased use of software unique to Ubuntu will create lock in to the Ubuntu ecosystem. This includes the use of its own display software (Mir) and interface (Unity). The big question is whether other desktop environments will support Mir. If they don't, and Ubuntu follows through with its plans, there will be fewer Ubuntu based distributions out there with alternate desktops.
Perhaps Shuttleworth envisions Canonical developing into a company offering a range of products, each with a similar interface. How much the newer hardware offerings will be locked down is anyone's guess, but I suspect there will be quite a bit of "lockage." The product range currently looks to offer everything from your basic desktop, to smart phones. Canonical would then join the ranks of Microsoft, Apple, and to a lesser extent, Google. I don't think he can pull it off.
You can't blame Shuttleworth for trying to "monetize" Linux. Certain companies, like Red Hat and IBM have managed it by selling services along with the operating system. Such companies serve their interests by contributing to Linux development. Canonical isn't following this route, at least no very strongly. Rather, they appear to want to borrow from Linux while making their product less and less like the other Linuxes out there. Eventually Ubuntu will be something like Google's Android.
Shuttleworth catches flack for a couple of reasons. He began by producing a very standard desktop system, and is now moving towards mobile development. Google started with mobile technology, and looks likely to remain there. Google's initial choice was smarter. It caused less disruption.
I am typing this on a desktop, i.e. with technology that offers little or no growth potential. As a desktop user, I see Ubuntu messing with a very good, stable system. If Ubuntu's future is mobile, or at least mobile-desktop, then Shuttleworth really shouldn't pay too much attention to opinions like mine.
39 • @38 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-28 00:45:13 GMT from Canada)
To grit my teeth and be fair to Mark (it's hard!), I think your emphasis is a bit off.
I think Mark wants Ubuntu (or rather, Canonical) to make money, yes. But he doesn't want Ubuntu to make money because he wants to be richer. Mark has giant piles of money already. Some rich people make it their purpose in life to get richer and richer and richer, but I don't think Mark's one of those people. If he'd just wanted to get richer, there are easier ways to do that than to invest in a desktop Linux distribution.
So, Mark doesn't want Canonical to make money in order to line his own pockets; he wants Canonical to make money so it will survive in the long term. Mark's a rich guy, but he is not infinitely rich. Canonical cannot run at a loss forever. My reading is that there is an effort to make Canonical more profitable, but this is not to return money to Mark and whoever else might own a stake in Canonical, but to make Canonical sustainable in the long term. This is a perfectly sensible thing to be trying to do.
I believe Mark when he says he founded Ubuntu and created Canonical, essentially, 'out of the kindness of his heart' (as you say he didn't). Or rather, because he believed in creating a great desktop Linux system and decided to dedicate his considerable resources to doing so. I disagree with some of the decisions he's made in the quest for that goal, and I have issues with some of the ways he promotes himself and Canonical, but I do think it's unfair to the guy to read him as just being in it for the money.
40 • @38 (by Sam Graf on 2013-05-28 01:07:04 GMT from United States)
“…Shuttleworth really shouldn't pay too much attention to opinions like mine.”
I think here we are somewhere near the heart of the matter. Mr. Shuttleworth has no need to listen to me either, for similar reasons. Outside Ubuntu Server, Ubuntu is heading in a direction that is of no immediate interest to me. Ubuntu as a graphical environment in which to work has become all but irrelevant to me. So there is no reason Canonical ought to have any interest in my view of their graphical environments, whether released or coming soon.
That all may change some day, of course. In the meantime, Canonical are obviously free to pursue their vision whether I share it or not. The same is true of all technology vendors of all sorts. I use what I find useful and try to replace what I don't. On the rest, I’m entitled to an opinion that matters and should matter very little.
41 • Xfce on Mageia (by Paul on 2013-05-28 01:08:26 GMT from United States)
Too bad Xfce is a red-headed stepchild DE on Mageia (thankfully, bug 5703/7861/8899 shouldn't appear in Mageia 4, hopefully because oxygen-gtk won't be pseudo-dependency for Xfce; maybe the installer for Mageia 4 could be improved for non-GNOME, non-KDE installs as well). Still, Mageia is looking in much better shape than OpenMandriva.
42 • 2009 New York Times business article about Canonical (by eco2geek on 2013-05-28 02:56:20 GMT from United States)
...here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
(Title: "A Software Populist Who Doesn’t Do Windows")
(Say what you will about him, but as you can see, Mr. Shuttleworth's focus historically hasn't exactly been to maximize his company's profits. :-)
43 • Ubuntu (by Anonymous Coward on 2013-05-28 04:54:05 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu seems to hold a very unique position in the linux community.
It does one thing very well --- it serves as a gateway into Linux for a relatively massive (by Linux desktop standards) new audience. So let's call it the Left Handed Cigarette of opensource. Whether or not that has spurred any beneficial development in Linux is questionable. Canonical contributes nothing outside its own immediate sphere.
Then it fails in fairly epic proportions at retaining users. Many people move on (up) to other distributions that encourage further learning & exploration by easing up on the locked-down interfaces and hand-holding. This has never been more true than at the introduction of Unity.
Ubuntu: The hash of Linux
Ubuntu Longtime users: the Shiftless stoner crowd of Linux
44 • Arch Linux emailing lists and fora user-hostility (by Thomas Mueller on 2013-05-28 05:31:39 GMT from United States)
@12 (...and Heaven forbid you ask for help on Arch forums, or for someone to explain a step to you..)
I had a short stay on Arch Linux emailing lists and see what you mean! I, not or not yet an Archer, asked if there was a way to download and build or rebuild the Arch Linux base system from source as is done with FreeBSD and NetBSD. Moderator rejected my post, saying I could have found the answer in less than a minute from the wiki, while in reality I had spent over an hour! Such an innocent question! I quickly became an infant mortality on the Arch Linux emailing lists after sending inquiries to the list owners and getting beating-about-the-bush answers or no answer. FreeBSD, NetBSD and Gentoo Linux emailing lists are much friendlier.
Forum structure on Arch Linux, also Gentoo and Funtoo, makes it difficult to find an answer to your posts, like finding a needle in the haystack, and this has nothing to do with the friendliness or hostility of the people involved.
45 • Money as the Root of all Evil, or Not (by Peter Besenbruch on 2013-05-28 06:39:08 GMT from United States)
Adam Williamson said:
"I believe Mark when he says he founded Ubuntu and created Canonical, essentially, 'out of the kindness of his heart' (as you say he didn't). Or rather, because he believed in creating a great desktop Linux system and decided to dedicate his considerable resources to doing so. I disagree with some of the decisions he's made in the quest for that goal, and I have issues with some of the ways he promotes himself and Canonical, but I do think it's unfair to the guy to read him as just being in it for the money."
First: No where did I speak of Mark Shuttleworth's motives entering the Linux field, though I suspect he wanted eventually to make money from the outset. My argument is that the current changes to Ubuntu and the changes coming down the line all point to a current, great desire to make money. Why is that bad? It isn't. As Adam put it, his pockets aren't infinitely deep. The side effects of his actions have the potential to be quite bad, though: Loss of privacy, and an increasingly locked down system that is ultimately less compatible with other Linux systems.
Who else in "in it for the money?" IBM and Red Hat. I may not like some of the things they do, but the way they make money hasn't compromised my privacy. Google's creation of Android and ChromeOS may not be all that disruptive to Linux overall, but I tend not to use them, precisely because their model is extremely invasive of my privacy. I don't use Google +, or even regular Google search for the same reason.
Others have compared Ubuntu Lucid to its more modern offerings in various ways. I would point out the change toward particularity and less compatibility, along with the privacy intrusions. I may have wondered about Shuttleworth's motives over the years, but Lucid was a very good release, one that I used widely. I don't use the current releases, and I won't consider his smart-phone OS either, because I look at his changed direction as a violation of what Linux is about, a breach of trust.
I have switched back to Debian. It's harder to set up, but I can learn my way around that. I like that they show basic respect for their users, and work hard to live out their open source ideals. The emphasis on stability doesn't hurt, either. ;)
46 • Ubuntu interface (by greg on 2013-05-28 07:24:55 GMT from Slovenia)
The strange thing i find is why the insistance on basing the Ubuntu distribution on Gnome. OK so they want to have same interface over all devices. but as many pointed out why would that be necessary?
moreover why not make it like KDE. You can have the normal K menu (is it kickstarter?!), the classic menu, homerun launcher, netbook plasma, touch screen plasma. so they could have modified touch to fit their paradigm on phone, homerun (or also touch) on TV and have a nice "classic" kde desktop for desktops. it coudl also be gnome doens't have to be KDE.
i understand Kubuntu didn't get much interest from businesses. i can only wonder why (bad promotion?!)...Besides Gnome 2 desktop was ok and made sense even for businesses (i am talking like most users about the layout which would have easilly been kept even in Gnome 3 if they wanted to as Cinnamon clearly demonstrates). i can only wonder though how much sense does unity make for desktop work. for people that use mouse for the most part when they interact with mashcine.
The question here is did the user want such interface? did they really want it? or was this just someones idea. someone that knows what user wants and expects from a desktop operating system.
47 • judging cannonical (by Gerald on 2013-05-28 11:30:25 GMT from Austria)
Before judging the decisions of canonical it is important to see their goals. Mark explained it clear, the goal is to bring ubuntu to smartphones and tablets and give a unique experience over all devices. There is still no smartphone or tablet you can connect to a TV and having a full destop experience. And i think there are many users who wants that. Its for the mainstream-market and not for linux-geeks. You see whats going on at the market.
The goal of ubuntu 13.04 is also mostly missunderstood, the LTS-Versions are for the endusers, the Versions between are for testers. I think that decision is good, for just working a LTS or a semis-rolling-release-model is the best.
For my desktop i use Kubuntu, KDE is ideal for desktop-computers, but i can't wait to see ubuntu on smartphones and tablets. Go on cannonical!
(sorry my english, but i had to say this :-))
48 • Red Hat, Canonical, and money (by David McCann on 2013-05-28 11:58:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have nothing against people wanting to make money: I use a lot of the stuff myself! But I am concerned with how they make it. As far as I know, Red Hat pay their taxes in the USA. Canonical is run from a building in London, but their registered office is in a tax haven. Do they make a profit or a loss? Since they're a private company, we're not going to see their accounts to find out.
49 • Ubuntu Rules and ... where is Mageia hiding (by Verndog on 2013-05-28 15:26:37 GMT from United States)
For all the love and hate for Ubuntu, Canonical and Shuttleworth, there's one thing apparent. You can't stop talking about it!
If you dislike Ubuntu so much how come its always on the tip of your tongue. :)
Comments like "..this is what I hate about Ubuntu...", serve very little purpose.
Someone mentioned hobbyist. I think that explains it.
======
I was curious about Mageia, and hopping for some feedback, but found very little comments. I find that surprising considering that its rated #2 on the PHR.
50 • @47 Canonical goals (by octathlon on 2013-05-28 17:38:34 GMT from United States)
You are right. Canonical has a goal that I would like to see happen: a (powerful enough) phone or tablet that acts as a desktop computer when docked to monitor/keyboard. No one has succeeded on this yet. It seems to be a logical guess as to where today's mainstream personal computing is headed and a Linux company is at the forefront, so more power to them.
Many Ubuntu users (me included) who were very happy with the state of Ubuntu at 10.04, the best desktop experience we had so far, were disappointed with how Canonical made their new goal and changed things to move toward it. But we have enough other options to switch to for keeping our traditional desktop experience, so let Canonical pursue this goal that no one else is doing, and few could even attempt. We can enjoy other nice distros while we wait to see what they accomplish.
51 • Why No Ubu (by kernelKurtz on 2013-05-28 19:59:41 GMT from United States)
Because if I wanted to run a system that supported "convergence" of platforms, downplayed its Unix roots, was primarily oriented toward profit, and was willing to get in bed with China if it helped the bottom line ...
I'd go with the company in Cupertino that Does Evil Right!
No point in going with an Apple wannabe/knockoff just because ... it's gratis? it uses diversity and freedom in its marketing? it's open for now? No.
There are Gnu/Linux distros who wear the name proudly, and line up much more closely with my values.
52 • RE48, Why? (by Eddie on 2013-05-28 20:13:13 GMT from United States)
And it's your business, why? It's none of your business what their account say. If you have a problem with that fact then talk to your government Representative.
53 • Ubuntu (by Ron on 2013-05-28 21:00:15 GMT from United States)
Well, I just cannot comment on the latest Ubuntu distribution because I refuse to install it! You see, when considering a new OS evaluation I first look at the user interface. If I see Gnome3, or Unity, I immediately reject it from any and all consideration.
The reason for the above, I must explain, is that I did exactly the opposite ONCE and promised myself never again. Gnome left such a headache and bad feeling that I was compelled to completely banish it from my systems. Hurray for Xubuntu 12.04!
So, you see, I'm not bashing ubuntu, I'm bashing lunacy.
54 • Ubuntu's Ability To Deliver (by Serge on 2013-05-28 23:53:52 GMT from United States)
From this issue's Miscellaneous News section: "Whatever your views of Canonical and Ubuntu, you can't deny the project's continued ability to deliver innovative (if sometimes controversial) ideas in order to increase the adoption of Linux and to also turn the project into a business success."
I don't want to get too deep into the Ubuntu bashing, because Ubuntu was the first distro I used when I started with Linux, but I take issue with Mr. Bodnar's statement there. I think we CAN deny the project's ability to increase the adoption of LInux and to turn the project into a business success. If I am not mistaken, when the Ubuntu project was started, estimates of Linux adoption on desktop PCs put it under 2% (there is no killer metric for this, but most estimates seem to be in agreement). Now, estimates of Linux adoption still put it under 2%. How has Ubuntu increased the adoption of Linux? And the company is still not profitable. I am not saying that they are never going to be profitable, I am just saying that to date, it is entirely legitimate to deny the project's "continued ability" in this regard as the track record simply does not support that assertion.
I'm not nitpicking. I think that it's important to keep in perspective that if we're going to say that increasing adoption of Linux and making a profit are the project's goals, then we have to say that so far the project is a failure.
Afterword #1: Note that while profitability is indeed one of the project's goals, increasing adoption of Linux is not. That's just something that we in the peanut gallery made up. In fact the project's real goal is to bring the power of computing to human beings everywhere, including places where a Microsoft license is cost-prohibitive. (That, I think, is the reason why it's so hard to find the word "Linux" on Ubuntu's website. It's not about Linux - Linux is just a means to an end.)
Afterword #2: The company that's really increased Linux adoption is Google, thanks to the Android platform, but that's not what people usually mean when they talk about "Linux".
55 • @54 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-29 00:15:14 GMT from Canada)
I did a post on Ubuntu's effect on the Linux desktop 'market share' a few months back:
http://www.happyassassin.net/2013/03/07/some-sad-numbers-on-how-linux-desktop-adoption-is-going/
my conclusion was that Linux desktop adoption has been growing in the period of Ubuntu's popularity (2004 -> date), but gradually, and not clearly any faster than it was growing prior to Ubuntu's emergence, when Mandrake/iva was the most popular desktop distribution.
56 • @55 (by Serge on 2013-05-29 00:45:44 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the link, very interesting. Does it appear that Linux growth stops when the Ubuntu project starts making its most controversial decisions? Or am I reaching a bit?
57 • @ 55 Adam Wiiliamson about Ubuntu's popularity (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 02:08:21 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I've been a Ubuntu user since 4.10. I always come back to it. I try Mint, every time it gets released, to find out that I can have "Mint", without it's anti-Google attitude in my Ubuntu by adding Mint's latest repos. Lately, I've been using Sabayon 13.04 Gnome and Mageia 3 KDE. Actually, I've come to like KDE through Mageia. Both are excellent distros, with their pluses & minuses.
Not many Ubuntu users come here to DWW, so the only way to find out how many users might be with Ubuntu, one has to look in the Ubuntu Forums. There are 1,817,631 members as of today, with 21,607 active members. Mint forums has 92,730 members, while Mageia forum has only 3000 members.
By the way, I am starting to like Unity more and more. The problem with users of other distros is that Unity is only Ubuntu specific. I wonder, how it would be nice to have Unity with Mageia or Sabayon.
The nicest fonts are in Lubuntu Saucy 13.10 daily image..
58 • @56 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-29 03:32:43 GMT from Canada)
I'd be worried about stretching interpretation of the data so far. They seem strong enough to support a fairly broad, negative statement: there's no evidence of a big bump in Linux adoption tied to the emergence of Ubuntu. I'm not sure they're strong enough to support detailed causative analysis like yours.
59 • @ 55 Adam Wiiliamson about desktops (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 04:27:01 GMT from Sri Lanka)
people would always need desktops. It is ergonomically hard to have a flat screen on your desk and write on it. One needs a standing screen, around 108-110 degrees to one's face. No one can go on looking down onto the desk surface too long. People would also like to have their hands free too, so using a tablet on the lap, balancing it with one hand, while writing with the other won't be much of a help for every day work. Its different with a mobile phone, where one can use the thumb or another finger to write smses.
The best thing still is the laptop, which has a screen to be moved to the desired angle for easy seeing. The laptop is actually the desktop these days in many homes, even in offices. The tablets are nice, but the desktop/laptop/netbook would be here for a long time.
60 • Laptops etc. (by zykoda on 2013-05-29 06:53:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
The restriction with laptops is the relative locations and orientations of the keyboard touchpad and screen. Also, IMHO most laptop keyboards are deprived in touch sensitivity, short lived and relatively costly to replace. IMHO on the whole, separate screen(s) keyboard and mouse still provide the most convenient desktop experience invented so far. But reading a wide near vertical screen is still slower than reading the best books, and writing/sketching on non reflecting paper under optimum desk lighting is unsurpassed. There is still much to be desired. Just my opinions to provoke internal thought, you do not have to agree or argue. And just consider the massive expansion of digital data from a humble paper sheet, and the effort to preserve that data for eternity.
61 • @59 (by greg on 2013-05-29 07:10:39 GMT from Slovenia)
"people would always need desktops. It is ergonomically hard to have a flat screen on your desk and write on it. ..."
now lets think a bit out of the box. you have devices (e.g. kinnect and a similar addon for keyboards/notebook) that can enable you to move items displayed on screen in 3D. you can manipulate the screen by hand movement. no mouse needed. no touch is needed. some can make it you can effectively manipulate things on screen from distance. zooming, turning, flippin... whatever can be imagined can be done with these intergfaces and right software.
you have better and better speech recognition software. so why would you type long letters and such if you can dictate to your own personal electronic secretary?
mouse/touchpad and keyboard are indded used a lot these days. but will we REALLY always need them? no. they might start dissapearing withing next 5-10 years. star trek had pads, now we have pads, they had touchscreen, now we have touch screens. they interact with computer by using voice, now we have siri and similar assistants.
62 • @61 Greg (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 07:30:00 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Our hands are shorter than the ergonomically easy distance to see. When you sit, your hands are bent at the elbow. You just can't write with straightened hands. The best distance to see the screen clearly and without much hurt for the eyes is about 60cm. You have to have your screen at least at that distance, and at about 110 degrees. Even, if your touchpad is at that angle, you just can't keep on writing on that angled screen.
of course, we are moving ahead, but not all that's new is that good for us--we are still to find a square wheel.
If I can have the keyboard or any kind of writing pad, practically above my thighs, and the screen about 1 meter away from me, and if I can lean back on the chair, then the spine and the hands would be happier.
It would be nice, if I can have a laptop, which can be separated into 2 sections, the keyboard to be pulled out from it. But, I'd need a place to rest the keyboard above the thighs.
At this moment, only the desktop is ergonomically better for the human body, because you can rest the elbows on the table, or pull a shelf for the keyboard, and push the screen as far as your eyes need it.
63 • @61 Greg (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 07:36:04 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Continuation...
Its good to have speech recognition software, say for official work, opening doors, starting machines etc, but if we stop writing, and would want the computer to suggest the words to us, we'd lose our languages.
We need to write, if we are to keep a language intact. Many new things are good, but without a language, who would we be?
64 • Re: #11 Fragmentation of Linux (by silent on 2013-05-29 10:49:47 GMT from France)
I presume that "balkanization' was meant as "fragmentation" of Linux. Good distributions like Antix and Pardus have been created in the Balkan.
65 • Desktops (by Gerald on 2013-05-29 11:08:01 GMT from Austria)
I agree, there will be still long time need for desktop-computers and there are many GNU/Linux-distros for them. But the marketshare for desktop diminish and will then stay on a stable rate, will share the computer market with smartphones and tablets. Smartphone and tablets don't replace the desktop, but you can do things better with them what you have done before with the desktop. There are also things you can do better with desktops. So people will have different devices for different things, not only the desktop.
Android and Chrome OS shows, that people are now ready to chose a other OS when the Applications are there. Also the computer manufakturers are looking for alternatives to Windows.
So i think, there will be a growing share for linux on desktop computers and there is a big choice there, but not for smartphones and tablets. Ok, Android has a linux-kernel but is not GNU/Linux. I don't feel secure on Android like on my GNU/Linux-desktop. So Canonical decided to go on there, because there is still the most need. You see how hard it is for Windows to gain share on the tablet and smartphone market, because they began to late ...
66 • @63 Chanath (by greg on 2013-05-29 12:13:32 GMT from Slovenia)
have a look at Leap Motion. it's an interesitng cheap product -motion interface. i wonder if it will work in linux.
Google glass is another interesting thing - it seems we will soon look like those in Wall-e....
new screens and tablets are getting thiner and you will soon be able to use them as pen and paper.
sitting all day behind a desk is not really optimal position. even with hands resting. my colleagues have back pains. and i've started to have them. relaxing back is much better. controling all by turning my wrist or with my facial expressions (e.g. click a link with a blink?).
you are correct language defines us who we are, our culture how we act etc. it can bring people together or push them appart. but on the other hand, the writing is only saving out throughs at the moment to paper. it seems we have other media for that now (other thanpaper). and it also seems that transmission of thoughts to that media will change.
67 • @65 Desktops (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 12:21:20 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Today, a laptop is practically a desktop. Someof them are so big, no one takes around. The netbooks are practical to carry around. As I can't have a 2-piece laptop, I use an additional keyboard for work. That way, the screen stays about 80-100 cms away from my eyes, while I have the keyboard near me, which allows me to lean on the chair, that is, sit staright, rather than bending forward. When, one stays too long before a computer--we always do so--one has to safeguard eyes, hands, neck and the spine.
There are lot of desktops these days with the computer embeded in the monitor and with a keyboard, mouse etc. I don't mind having a touch screen computer, but with an additional keyboard, that is of course, when my laptop dies. Its been with me for four years, the way it works, surely would live another four. Enough time to wait for new and newer technology, but if the computer is for work, then ergonomics come first.
68 • Where Ubuntu has lost their way (by Jeff on 2013-05-29 12:47:37 GMT from United States)
I started using Ubuntu when I found the book Beginning Ubuntu Linux by Keir Thomas.
Several times in that book it is mentioned that Ubuntu would work on older computers and that this was by intention, to promote access to computers for people.
The claim was that Mark Shuttleworth wanted to help people, that was said to be the reason behind Ubuntu and why he chose a word that means humanity toward others for its name.
But then one release came along that was incompatible with my slightly older computer and all the response that I got when I asked for help amounted to "Buy a new computer".
Debian is not as easy to set up and use, but at least they do not dismiss older hardware.
69 • #58.Size of Ubuntu forum (by jack on 2013-05-29 13:44:03 GMT from Canada)
I am not sure that a large number indicates "more help".
I have been trying to get help to change my screen brightness (Nvidia card. desktop box)
There have been over 100 "views" but no replies
70 • @ 68 Jeff (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 13:51:38 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Don't buy a new computer, but use older versions of Ubuntu, for they still work. You can install newer versions of Firefox etc in them.
71 • Ubuntu and growth (by Jesse on 2013-05-29 14:29:29 GMT from Canada)
>> "my conclusion was that Linux desktop adoption has been growing in the period of Ubuntu's popularity (2004 -> date), but gradually, and not clearly any faster than it was growing prior to Ubuntu's emergence, when Mandrake/iva was the most popular desktop distribution."
Adam, I enjoyed your breakdown of the usage numbers with relation to Ubuntu. Personally I disagree with your conclusion. The numbers show Linux's usage nearly doubles (up over 70%) between the time Ubuntu comes on the scene and recent years (2004-2010). No data is provided on the years from when Linux first came on the scene up to Ubuntu's launch (1991-2004). Given we have limited data on Linux usage prior to Ubuntu's appearance, I don't think we can make the conclusion the growth rate hasn't changed. Actually, I might go so far to say the numbers support the idea that Ubuntu is a strong positive force in pushing Linux desktop usage.
From 1991 to 2004 the numbers show Linux managed to gain as much as about 3% of the desktop market. That's 14 years to gain 3.1%. From 2004 to 2010 Linux grew to 5.4%. That means Linux grew 2.3% in 7 years compared to the previous 3.1% in 14 years. I'd say that's a pretty attractive increase. The numbers show Linux adopting is not only up, but increasing in pace.
72 • @70, 68 - Ubuntu on older PCs (by Uncle Slacky on 2013-05-29 15:41:23 GMT from France)
Rather than risk using unsupported versions of Ubuntu, you could just use Ubuntu-based distros with "minimal" (in terms of memory use) DEs, like Lubuntu, LXLE or Peppermint (all using LXDE instead of Unity) or Bodhi (E17 instead of Unity). Bodhi also provides an up-to-date version with a non-PAE kernel for older machines.
73 • @70 (by Jeff on 2013-05-29 15:45:24 GMT from United States)
I gave up on Ubuntu and switched to Debian, it does take more work to set up but when I'm done it is the way I want it.
At about the same time that this happened I found CrunchBang and found the more minimalist idea to be more to my taste than spending so much of the computers resources on distracting "eye candy" which does not do anything useful.
Interestingly this was about the same time that CrunchBang switched to a Debian base also.
I do tend to agree with the idea that if I wanted the MacOS I would buy a Mac
74 • @71 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-29 16:06:19 GMT from Canada)
My article does include the numbers from 2003-2004 as the basis of comparison, as that's as far back as I could get.
I like your effort at using '1991-2003' numbers, that's a neat one :), but I don't think it quite holds up, as I doubt very much that 'Linux on the desktop' adoption rates rose smoothly over that period; from 1991 to 1998 or so I suspect the number was almost zero and then started rising more sharply. But that is indeed just my guess based on the status of Linux during those years, I can't prove it; I don't know of any data sets that go back that far. Maybe we should try and find one.
75 • Size of Forums vs Amount of Help (by Rev_Don on 2013-05-29 16:07:53 GMT from United States)
@69 @58 Jack, you nailed it right on the head. It doesn't matter how many people are on the forum if you can't get the answers you need. For all we know there are that many people registered on those forums because they are searching for help for a product that isn't performing as promised, not because they like the product.
I've been searching for help in getting any distro based on 'Buntu after 10.04 where you simply can NOT get access to an NTFS partition/drive. It doesn't happen on all hardware, but it does happen on a significant amount of motherboards using the Intel P/G 41/43/45 chipsets. Canonical made a major change in the fuse libraries as well as dropping NTFS.config and replaced it with something else. Those changes, among some others have essentially made it impossible to use any 'Buntu based distro on these systems in a dual boot scenario with Windows. Canonical, and all of the 'Buntu forums blow it off as if it doesn't affect the individual user then it isn't an issue at all so no action needs to be taken. Debian, which 'Buntu is based on has no such problem as they know how to properly design an operating system. When there are hundreds of posts about the issue and no help in sight. The few people who have figured out how to fix the problem only list the steps in such a general way that only a highly advanced user would be able to make the changes. They only sy do this, but don't explain how to go about it and when you ask for clarification they either don't reply or give some cryptic response like use google. That right there is why Ubuntu is such a poor distro.
76 • 72 • @70, 68 - Ubuntu on older PCs, Uncle Slacky (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 16:42:24 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Peppermint is based on an unsupported Ubuntu.
77 • @72 (by Jeff on 2013-05-29 16:42:51 GMT from United States)
Actually the same incompatibility with my older computers video card was present in Lubuntu at that time, so it was in the base of Ubuntu which all of them use.
I had no such problem with Debian, then or since.
78 • Ubuntu stuff (by DavidEF on 2013-05-29 16:47:37 GMT from United States)
@38 Peter, there are a couple things. First, all of the new components that Canonical are introducing are open source. They are not proprietary. You will always have the choice to use them or not. And developers of other distros also have the choice to use them or not. Therefore, there is no forced lock-in possible.
Also, you wonder if other desktops will choose to support Mir. You do know that Canonical supports every major desktop, don't you? Most of their official derivatives exist only to offer an alternative desktop, as well as some of the unofficial derivatives. Canonical will certainly do the work necessary to ensure that you will be able to use almost any desktop you wish. It is in their best interest to do so.
Read the article linked in the DWW from OMG! Ubuntu!. In it, Mark makes a comment that he finds it bizarre that they are being criticised for writing open source software. I'd have to agree. Some people just can't be pleased, apparently.
@Others - on the subject of Unity
I happen to like Unity. There are some things I don't like about it, to be sure, but the style works for me. I do wish they had kept Unity 2D around for my older computers. But, I had to laugh at #24 "...but one wonders if Unity fans actually do anything but socially network, play games or surf the web with their computers?" Yep, you nailed me! Maybe you just inadvertantly discovered who Unity was designed for.
Meanwhile, I wonder why the hatred is so strong among Unity non-users. I've always believed that you can only feel strongly about something you care about. I don't have strong feelings either for or against KDE, because I don't use it. Same with other desktops. What about Ubuntu is so important to these people that they feel the need to bash Canonical/Ubuntu/Unity all the time? I don't even care as much about Unity as most of the Unity-bashers seem to, and I use it every day!
79 • @75 Ubuntu...Rev Don (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 16:54:05 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Just a few minutes ago, I made a mistake. Well, not exactly a mistake, but a try. I have Ubuntu Saucy, and I have installed Gnome 3.8.2 through ppas. It worked very well and had enough extensions for my liking. I wanted to upgrade to Gnome 3.9.1 and I did that too. Few lines, few clicks in the Terminal, I had Gnome 3.9.1.
I need extensions, but some are not yet written, so I had to get back to Gnome 3.8.2, and I did that with few lines and few clicks in the Terminal. This distro was originally Ubuntu Saucy, and then it became Ubuntu Saucy and Gnome 3. Then, I went up to an expermnting and downgraded it. It isworking very well.
Can you show me another distro, where you can do this kind of experimenting upgrading and downgrading without a hitch? I am not a geek at all. Ubuntu Saucy is yet to come.
80 • Continuation of #79 (by Chanath on 2013-05-29 17:08:14 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Few years ago came two new DEs, Gnome 3 and Unity. There were kids then, and now become youthful. All other OSs can install Gnom 3, but cannot install Unity. Poor show. Even Debian can't install Unity.
But, in Ubuntu, you can install all the DEs, WMs available in the Linux world.
There will be more new DEs from Ubuntu, but would they be installable in other OSs? So, which is the Universal distro in the Linux world?
81 • issues in review (by David on 2013-05-29 17:14:57 GMT from United States)
For a weather applet, plasma-applet-yawp is pretty nice. Maybe not quite as nice as Liquid Weather back in the KDE3 days, but still pretty nice. I use KDE and Mageia full time and spent a year on Mageia 1 and never had the Klipper issue you described. I also can't reproduce any issues with Asciiquarium in Mageia 3. (For the record, Amarok works fine too, and yes this is on 32-bit, since another commenter mentioned it).
82 • Favorite Desktop 2013 (by gregzeng on 2013-05-29 19:55:41 GMT from Australia)
Total votes: 1724 to date (still going)
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/60349
KDE 44%,
GNOME 10%
Xfce 11%
LXDE 3%
Enlightenment 1%
Unity 7%
MATE 6%
Cinnamon 6%
*box 2%
IceWM 0%
Sugar 0%
Trinity 5%
Ratpoison 0%
Razor-qt 1%
awesome 0%
other 2%
83 • @82 tuxmachines poll (by Fairly Reticent on 2013-05-29 20:54:41 GMT from United States)
"Total votes: 1736"
84 • @80 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-29 23:02:08 GMT from Canada)
Unity is not widely packaged outside of Ubuntu because it is not easy to provide outside of Ubuntu. It is not an independent project with its own development roadmap and release schedule like GNOME or KDE; it's intimately tied to the Ubuntu development process. I tried to package Unity for Fedora for a while, found it impractically difficult, and gave up. I know others had similar experiences trying to package it for other distributions.
85 • @57/ Distro revenue (by mz on 2013-05-30 02:16:04 GMT from United States)
@57:
I strongly prefer Mint over Ubuntu, and it's a lot easier to change a search box in Firefox than to play with repos. What anti-google bias does Mint display, other than not adding their search engine in by default? You can easily see the default & change it by going to 'Manage Search Engines' & clicking 'Get more search engines...'. Then you can scroll down and click the icon for Google or any number of other search engines, or you can look for others from the Mozzilla add-ons site. The process is many times more transparent and easier to change than the way Canonical generates money via the dash. Why would anyone react negatively to a search engine change and still use Unity dash, which both respects your privacy less, and is far less transparent? I've seen other complaints about the search box, but can't really fathom what the issue is given that search engine management is mostly the same. If Mozilla can get MS & Google into a bidding war over the search engine box, why shouldn't Mint try to generate a little revenue there?
Also, I just got Mint 15 via bit-torrent, and I'm enjoying it a lot. I like the unified settings centre, and especially the new hot corner configuration options. The hot corners in KDE are still more configurable, but Cinnamon finally seems good enough in hot corner options now.
86 • @ 84 Adam Williamson (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 05:19:18 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Unity is the flagship DE for Ubuntu. It may not an independent project, but it has its roadmaps, and its future. It gives Ubuntu something other OSs don't have. Like you said, it is hard to package Unity for Fedora. But, any DE/WM can be installed in Ubuntu.
Unity is open source, just like all other Linux world DEs/WMs. So, Ubuntu has an edge over all other Linux OSs. In few months, Unity 8 and MIR would come, and it would be even harder to package them on other OSs. I remember Ubuntu 4.10, and the road Ubuntu had come so far.
Mint made a big mistake by shunning Gnome 3 and Unity, now it is stuck with old-looking Cinnamon and Mate. I remember, how Clem criticised both of them. Of course, Unity can be installed in Mint, as it is based on Ubuntu. No one should be made to use a menu/DE by force, so if I don't like Cinnamon, I'd uninstall it, put a # in front of Mint repos, and what do I have? Ubuntu.
The only thing that's going modern in the other Linux OSs is Gnome 3 shell. KDE is okay, but it is still an old-fashioned Compiz-looking Gnome 2 lookalike.
87 • @ 85 MZ (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 05:25:30 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Hot corners?
Unity has them with Unity Tweak Tool. You can have notonly corners, but hot sides too.
How about using Ubuntu for atleast a week?
88 • @86 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-05-30 06:01:09 GMT from Canada)
It's funny; we see the same thing, you see it as something Ubuntu should brag about, I see it as a shame and a missed opportunity...
89 • Mageia 3 (by Ghostdawg on 2013-05-30 06:27:54 GMT from United States)
I'll say, for me, Mageia is one solid distro. I installed the first Mga3 Alpha on my system and continued to use it all the way till the final release, around May 19. There were a few hiccups along the way but nothing major. I can now say I'm running the final release with Gnome 3 & KDE4 installed and enjoying it.
I also run SalixOS 14 and it's a solid distro too. Thanks and keep up the good work to the Mageia & Salix teams!
90 • @87 (by mz on 2013-05-30 07:17:00 GMT from United States)
That last bit was more of an aside & a general thought, but I tried Unity as a second DE on Mint awhile back & didn't like it. I do like the fact that both KDE & Cinnamon include lots of flexibility and configuration options out of the box, unlike Unity & Gnome 3. If I want to change something I usually don't have to rely on 'tweak tools' or 'shell extensions', but there are other options that can be added in later. I'd also say that I like the way both KDE and Cinnamon 1.8 have integrated methods of adding things into the DE, although Gnome Shell extensions seem like a decent way to try to fix an interface with some really bad/controversial defaults. I've grown very accustomed to the default PC style interface on both KDE & Cinnamon, although I can respect that some like other things.
One other area that both Gnome 3 & Unity do poorly for me in is the basic graphical menu. I know that I can type stuff in the dash or Gnome equivalent & get a program I want, but I can do that in almost any DE. I think all the clicking & mouse hunting involved in launching a program in either Gnome 3 or Unity is a sign of poor interface design. Although KDE is my favourite desktop, I'll admit that the default KDE 'Kickoff' menu suffers from some of the same problems as well. I think the amount of mouse hunting is much better in Kickoff, but the interface requires a few too many clicks to ge around. The Cinnamon Menu is top notch in terms a ease of use, you just move your mouse around a little and it does what you want fast & simple. It even says 'Menu' on it by default, so if you've never used a PC before you can probably figure it out. To me that whole easy to discover thing is a sign of good user friendly design, which is the exact opposite of the Gnome 3 way of hiding your buttons or you shut down options rather than letting you see a basic way of getting stuff done.
I may like having a nerd OS that not many people use, but I want a familiar desktop design that people in my family can use without prompting or training. It could also be handy to have something familiar if I want to convert someone else to Linux. If I can have this with in a reconfigurable and nice looking package, them I'm happy with the desktop. Of course I'd also like something I could stand behind in other ways as well. Given the privacy problems in Ubuntu I really can't go there as an option any more. I actually switched to DuckDuckGo as my primary search engine out of privacy concerns before I started using Linux full time, so I can't in good conscience recommend or use use something with the privacy defaults that Ubuntu has, Unity or no Unity. I think Shuttleworth means well, but his main desktop has been tarnished by a revenue generating plan that didn't do enough to protect & respect users. So Unity is unfamiliar, has a bad menu design & other bits I don't like, and worst of all it has user privacy defaults that I find highly objectionable. Sorry, but not only will I not try it for a week, but I don't think I want to use anything with Ubuntu in the name until user privacy defaults are greatly improved.
91 • @ 88 Adam Williamson (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 07:27:11 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I don't see it as something Ubuntu should be bragging about, but I see it as something the other Linux OSs cannot do. Is Unity open source? If so, then what's the problem? Would Unity 8 or MIR be open source? Should anyone be blamed for making open source applications?
I was not very happy to have an only left panel, at the beginning, but now I see the idea behind it. I also find using that "left" launcher easy. I could install Gnome 3.8.2, so now I have Gnome 3.8.2 & Unity. Tomorrow, I'd have Unity 8, Mir and Gnome 3.10, which I think is progress.
If anything and everything can be installed in a Linux OS, then it is a universal one, right?
Gnome 3, which is behind Unity (and Cinnamon) is going to evolve. The DE would change immensly. There is also a Tizen Ultrabook powered by Gnome 3, with an interesting DE. Chrome OS could be installed into Ubuntu, so anyone can have a look at the Chromebook's OS. Can you do that with Fedora?
92 • @ 90 MZ (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 07:40:04 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"That last bit was more of an aside & a general thought, but I tried Unity as a second DE on Mint awhile back & didn't like it."
That's a personal choice, which is what Linux means. Free to choose and free to use.
"I've grown very accustomed to the default PC style interface on both KDE & Cinnamon, although I can respect that some like other things."
Just because, we ar egetting "accustomed" any style, doesn't mean the other Linux people would stop at developing. It is still free, so one can choose. I wasn't very happy atthe beginning with Gnome 3 & Unity, but I knew they'd grow. And, they are going forward.
The more Gnome 3 grows, all other "gnome based" distros have to grow up with it, or go the Mate way. Ubuntu is doing it faster, and others are doing a catching up game. By the way, Mint is Ubuntu + Mint repos. If Ubuntu would be good, Mint would be good, and without Ubuntu, it can't go anywhwre. Mint's Debian LMDE doesn't catch up at all. To Mint 15RC, I added Saucy repos, and got myslef a Mint 16.
I am writing from Ubuntu Saucy, It is snappy. Until you try the bleeding edge Ubuntu, you don't know what would be the next Mint is...
93 • @ #86 • @ 84 Adam Williamson (by Chanath) (by Pierre on 2013-05-30 09:00:29 GMT from Germany)
Most of what you wrote is ok, but I have to heavily disagree with "The only thing that's going modern in the other Linux OSs is Gnome 3 shell. KDE is okay, but it is still an old-fashioned Compiz-looking Gnome 2 lookalike."
KDE 4.10 might be desktop oriented and therefore look more traditional than Gnome Shell, but in contrast to Gnome 3 it is highly customizable to a degree where no other DE can compete or keep up with at all.
And you might like to have a tablet like OS on your desktop, but what the mentioned vote here shows is that most of the others don't like to have a 24" tablet without touch when using it on the desktop.
Not to forget that KDE is so flexible that it has Plasma One and Plasma Active in case you want to use it on tablets and / or phones. It's modular and in the code base much more modern than any other DE out there.
Looking like a tablet OS (or DE) does not make a DE modern but only modern looking. Which can be easily done on KDE too. In fact KDE gives you a lot of choice where Gnome forces you to go their way. And if there is something I cannot stand it's to be forced to go the way others try to force me.
94 • 82 • Favorite Desktop 2013 (by gregzeng) (by Pierre on 2013-05-30 09:07:03 GMT from Germany)
Hard to only hit one and make a choice. But if I'd have to make a decision it would be for KDE. It's simply the best at the moment. I remember how I hate it in the beginning but I got to like it because KDE itself became stable, mature and responsive with the last 3 major releases.
If it were not like that my choice would have been Xfce. Lightwight, logical, stable and simply beautiful in it's design.
But sad to see i3 is not among the choices. ^^ It's my absolute favorite.
95 • @92 (by mz on 2013-05-30 10:07:45 GMT from United States)
Well, until you try a distro based on Debian Sid, you won't know what the real under hood changes in Ubuntu will be. Ubuntu only releases once every six months, but with Sid you get a new system every few days. Who cares as long as it does what you prefer. Also, you can use Gnome 3 if you want, but I think it's kinda terrible. I don't think too much better of Unity, but that is what choice is about. In fact, I would say that in the era of windows 8 the 'old school' desktops that you dislike are a real selling point for many versions of Linux. I'd also say that if you look at how windows 8 is selling slower than Vista, you could have an indicator that tablet style desktops may be a passing fad. They're even adding the old start menu back into the next update of windows 8. Of course if you really want a tablet like interface, you could tweak the settings in KDE to put you in a full screen search & launch mode. I think giving users the choice to have full screen launchers, traditional menus, or both is going to be the better formula in the long run.
96 • @95 mz (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 11:49:07 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"Well, until you try a distro based on Debian Sid, you won't know what the real under hood changes in Ubuntu will be."
Not exactly!
Debian Sid won't have Linux kernel 3.9.0.3 also it won't have Gnome 3.8.2. Okay, some Sid based distros like Siduction, would have Gnome 3.8.2, but I won't be able to install Unity. That's the crux of the matter, it is not that universal, but I can install any DE/WM in Ubuntu through ppas.
Take Bodhi for example; I don't like E17, but I like the way Jeff had made Ubuntu so minimal, so, if I want, I can still install Gnome 3 and/or Unity in that. Now, if you have Mint 15, try to uninstall Cinnamon, and see what you get. To Ubuntu, I can install LXpanel, Tint2, Gnome panel, Xfce panel, or whatever.
Win 8? I don't want it. I have Win 7 as MS tax in my laptop. If I want the Metro UI, I can simply install it to Win 7, ony I can't remember the last time I was using it.
I have Sabayon 13.04 & Mageia, both KDE, so I know what's happening in the KDE world. Of courze, I am not going to try to install Unity in those, as I like them as they are. What I'm trying to say is that Unity is open source and a new DE, so its not very good to discriminate the new boy in the class. Do you see analog mobiles anymore?
97 • @Chanath (by greg on 2013-05-30 12:52:23 GMT from Slovenia)
KDE is not just default KDE. have a look at homerun, plasma touch and netbook plasma KDE interfaces. you will see that you can use whatever fits your device best yet it's still use KDE. while Unity - seems it may fit on TV, Unity phone is a different interface though similar and it doesn't fit well to desktop.
you also mentioned Cinnamon shunning gnome3. you maybe meant Gnome shell, because Cinamonn is based on Gnome 3 just like Unity is. Mate is Gnome2 fork though. Cinnamon is more traditional desktop landscape.
meh.... i just saw that Adam already wrote about KDE.
98 • @96 (by mz on 2013-05-30 13:22:35 GMT from United States)
Now your putting down windows 8? Shouldn't a true Gnome 3 fan be overjoyed that Gnome led the way into the touch like desktop era before windows 8? The thing is win 8 & Gnome 3 both follow certain design patterns, & the general poor reaction to win 8 is probably an indicator of general public opinion toward touch like desktops. It doesn't seem like Gnome 3 is the future, except in a niche kind of way. Most users will probably move away from these style of interfaces for the foreseeable future. Use it if you like it, but in the case of both win 8 & Gnome 3, it looks a lot like touch styled desktops are a move away from what most users want.
99 • @98 MZ (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 14:08:47 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I am not putting down Win 8, only I've not used it. I had used all Windows OSs up to Win7, and stopped it from there. I use only Linux, for many years now. I've used OSX too.
Gnome 3's design pattern is Gnome developers' design pattern, nothing to do with Win8. I really don't need a Windows computer. I am not curious to see what's inside Win8. But, I am very curious about any new DEs/WMs coming out of the Linux world.
In Ubuntu Quantal, I had the chance to use Chrome OS, so I knew what is Chromebook. I have KDE plasma, netbook desktops, and I like them. I have partitions to work with different stuff. I also have Meego, and it works pretty well. I have Rosa DE too. I am awaiting Tizen OS, Unity 8 and MIr, and Gnome 3.10 and more.
100 • @ 97 • @ greg (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 14:32:46 GMT from Sri Lanka)
If I need Cinnamon or Mate, all I have to do is use a ppa to install it in Ubuntu.
Well, traditional stuff; how many of us are using analog mobiles, B&W TVs these days?
Anyway, if you want traditional stuff, you can always install Gnome-panel in Ubuntu and you can have Gnome2 lookalike panels. There is absolutely no need to install Cinnamon or Mate to get to the traditional desktop. Its only sudo apt-get install gnome-panel and log out & log into the traditional DE. You can have AWN dock, Cairo dock or Docky, if you want. You can have LXpanel, XFCE panel, Tint2, E17, if you want them. You can even interchange them, whenever you like.
I like Mageia, Sabayon, Calculate, Rosa etc, but Ubuntu is the universal distro/OS. Ubuntu gives me more choice, which even Debian cannot give. I can install Gnome 3.9.1 in Ubuntu, but I won't be able to install that in Debian for a while, and when that time comes, I might be able to install Gnome 4.4 in Ubuntu.
101 • @96, Unity and universal distribution (by TobiSGD on 2013-05-30 15:36:21 GMT from Germany)
I don't quite get your point. Yes, Unity is open source, but it is designed and written in a way that makes it nearly impossible to use for other distros. That is something Canonical is very good with, try to set up a Launchpad server, also open source, but indeed impossible to use for anyone but Canonical.
So you think because only Ubuntu uses unity it is more universal than other OSes? Because Canonical decided to write a software that is incompatible with other distros?
So, if I decide to write a new DE and write it in a way that it is only able to run on Slackware (which can also run any other DE, besides Unity), does that make Slackware more universal than Ubuntu? This type of logic doesn't make sense.
My 2 cents, with Canonical's recent decisions to shun the community and with their development of Mir, a display server no other DE/WM than Unity is interested in, just because it is clearly stated that Mir is developed solely with Unity in mind and can break their API at any given time, Canonical has done something only a few software projects have done in the past: They managed to shoot themselves in both feet at the same time.
They had a good time, but after changing from the once advertized "Linux for human beings!" to "We are the next Apple!" they will go down the drain, this is something that doesn't work in the Linux ecosphere.
102 • @ #100 (by Chanath) (by Pierre on 2013-05-30 16:55:15 GMT from Germany)
Ok, honestly. I know there is a lot of Ubuntu bashing going on in the past for more or less good reasons. But come on!
Calling Ubuntu 'the universal disto/OS' sounds sick in my ears and becomes even more weird when you start thinking about where you got that claim from.
In fact you call a Debian based OS - which is not more not less than a specialized Debian - a more universal OS than Debian itself?!
I cannot agree on what you write once more.
I even start questioning myself whether you really thought over what you wrote before hitting submit...
103 • @102 Pierre (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 17:07:24 GMT from Sri Lanka)
When I will be able to install Gnome 3.8.2 in Debian, I'd be able to install Gnome 4.0 in Ubuntu. And, when I'd be able to install Gnome 3.9.1, I'd be able to install Gnome 4.4 in Ubuntu. The same goes for KDE 4.10...
There are developers of Debian based distros that has for example, KDE 4.10 installed, but I am not a developer or a geek. I can do that with Ubuntu, because there are ppas. And, those ppas are done by brainy chaps. Debian 7 has Gnome 3.4 and KDE 4, which makes it quite old in May 2013!
104 • @103 Debian vs Ubuntu (by Rev_Don on 2013-05-30 17:45:53 GMT from United States)
You can install the later releases of Gnome and KDE in Debian Testing and Experimental, just not in Stable and that is for a VERY good reason. Debian Stable (currently ver. 7 or wheezy) is just that.. STABLE. The Debian based distros shipping with and having the options for the klater versions of KDE, Gnome, the Linux Kernel, etc. are based on Debian Testing or Experimental/Unstable or have enabled those repositories to do so. That defeats te entire concept of what Debian Stable is all about. STABILITY. Until those newer releases of various software, desktops, kernels, etc. have had a chance to have been thoroughly vetted they have no business in a STABLE release as they haven't proved themselves yet. THAT is why DEBIAN is 10 times the distribution that Ubuntu is (or ever will be). It allows you to have an extremely stable release (Wheezy), a fairly stable release (Jessie/Testing), or a fairly bleeding/cutting edge release that could break quite easily (Sid/Unstable).
They don't call Sid Unstable for nothing. It might be about as stable as the latest release of Ubuntu, but not nearly enough for a production system. Consider Debian Wheezy as comparable to Ubuntu 12.04.x LTS, Jessie as 12.10, and Sid as 13.04. That means you simply can NOT compare Debian Stable to Ubuntu 13.04 with any degree of legitimacy.
It's you choice which you want to go with, but to say it isn't universal or as good or up to date as Ubuntu shows how little you actually know and understand about Linux, computers in general, or the real world.
105 • @ 104 Debian vs Ubuntu Rev_Don (by Chanath on 2013-05-30 18:30:07 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Stable? Of course!
One can always use the STABLE city bus, rather than driving one's own new car, to navoid accidents. Even better, if one keeps the new car in the garage and put a security guard before it. We don't live in a STABLE world.
Some people take risks, that's why we have modern stuff to use. So pal, I am using Saucy, not Raring. In your calculations, Saucy is comparable to what Debian? Sid's elder bro?
106 • @105 (by Rev_Don on 2013-05-30 23:04:19 GMT from United States)
I fogot to factor that release in. So I would need to revise my previous post to be 13.10 would be Sid, 12.10 would be Jessie, and 13.04 would be somewhere in between those two. But that really isn't the main issue. If you want to run an unstable release that is barely at the alpha stage.fine. Just don't knock a finalized STABLE release for not having the same bleeding/cutting edge software available as an Alpha (or even a Beta) release has. You have to have enough intelligence and maturity to understand how to compare apples to apples, not apples to lemons.
107 • @ Chanarth (by mz on 2013-05-31 02:19:20 GMT from United States)
Judging from the review of Mint 15 by h-online, the new version of Mint has better tools for handling PPAs, 3rd party repos, and software conflicts than Ubuntu. The review is on the 'Latest Reviews' section on the left of the DW main page. That sounds like it might be perfect for someone who likes to ply with new software, why don't you try it for a week & see?
As a side note, they now have improved support for in place upgrades. That was the thing that killed my first install of Mint, which was also my first Linux install. I'm keeping Mint 15 on my new laptop, but I think I'll stick with PCLOS & KDE for my desktop. Choice is good.
108 • @ 106 Rev_Don (by Chanath on 2013-05-31 02:44:46 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Nothing is absolutely "finished" in our world, soo Wheezy is not finished, but frozen. Jesse is testing, and Sid is unstable. But, that's the Debian vocabulary. In Ubuntu world, Precise is frozen, but still living, getting some updates as needed. Quantal and Raring are frozen too, and bothe were based on Wheezy, only the Ubuntu repos are the ones, one can use in Ubuntu, not Debian's, which makes Ubuntu a different OS.
The Ubuntu devs can use any of the Debian repos, and add their own knowledge and make new applications, for Ubuntu repos. So, for example, if you can find Gnome 3.6.2 & 3.8.2 in Ubuntu repos, and cannot find that in Debian repos, you can understand that Ubuntu devs had used codes that are not available in Debian repos.
When another independent developer makes .deb files in his ppa for Gnome 3.9.1, he/she is doing that by his/her own, without using the Debian repos. There are so many such ppas in the Launchpad.
When, Raring came out with a daily cdimage, I used it all the time, it was neither alpha nor beta. I never got a problem. So, as soon as I could get a Saucy daily cdimage, I took it, and it had not given me any trouble yet. I am using a 4 year old, core 2 duo, 2.8 GB memory laptop.
Both Gentoo distros, Sabayon & Calculate work very well in it. Gentoo is a rolling OS. Mageia works well to, even though it is a fixed OS. If they are doing well, why not use the blleding edge Ubuntu Saucy? The only way to not to get into a car crash is by staying inddors, but no one can predict, when a vehicle would come crashing into the home.
The developers keep on thinking, experimenting with code, so we have to respect them for what they do in their free time.
You can have a daily Debian cdimage, but it would be only a 64bit one, and a net install, so whatever in the Debian repos you can take, or otherwise package them yourself. If you check with the kernel.org, you find the long term stable kernel is 3.2.45 & 3.4.47, where as the stable kernel is 3.9.4, and the mainline kernel is 3.10-rc3. There would be a .deb package somewhere in the internet for that mainline kernel, and I can have it in my Ubuntu Saucy.
My chair is sort of stable, so i can sit on it all day, not to be unstable, but it might break down and I'd fall and injure myself. Nothing is permamnent and nothing is completely stable!
109 • OMG! (by greg on 2013-05-31 07:15:33 GMT from Slovenia)
"There are developers of Debian based distros that has for example, KDE 4.10 installed, but I am not a developer or a geek. I can do that with Ubuntu, because there are ppas. And, those ppas are done by brainy chaps. Debian 7 has Gnome 3.4 and KDE 4, which makes it quite old in May 2013!"
ever heard of backports? are you saying you can't run the latest DE on Debian?
what you say is introducing unstable dev packages to Ubutnu keeps it at stable (BS) while introducing dev packages to Debian stable is impossible because Debian stable is stable.
"There would be a .deb package somewhere in the internet for that mainline kernel, and I can have it in my Ubuntu Saucy."
oh so you would have a DEBIAN package you can use on Ubuntu? how cool is ubutnu isn't it?
Anyway - i have no more food left. So i will stop. 102 Pierre sums it up nicely.
110 • @ #103 (by Chanath) (by Pierre on 2013-05-31 09:41:43 GMT from Germany)
As I explained before already - like many others - you will always be able to install in Debian, what you can install in Ubuntu and vice versa.
Only because Ubuntu includes newer packages in their standard repositories does not make it a better or more universal os.
In contrary it leads to less stable systems than Debian. Debian packages are in testing phases for a longer time.
If you don't want have older versions you can the newest from the experimental repositories, it's not much different from your so highly praised PPAs. And their are a lot more brainy Debian devs who are offering repositories for interesting new and cutting edge packages than there are brainy Ubuntu guys offering PPAs...
Just my opinion and my two cents, but as you see many others see it the same.
111 • @ 110 Pierre (by Chanath on 2013-05-31 10:12:03 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"Only because Ubuntu includes newer packages in their standard repositories does not make it a better or more universal os. In contrary it leads to less stable systems than Debian. Debian packages are in testing phases for a longer time."
Why are you so sure? Are you sure, because Debian tells you that, or you've found that the ppas don't really work?
Have a look here; http://forums.solusos.com/thread-2776.html
SolusOS2 A5 is a Debian based distro.
112 • @ #111 (by Chanath) (by Pierre on 2013-05-31 12:43:05 GMT from Germany)
I am sure about this because it is
1) logical due to design and shorter QA periods and
2) I experience a lot of issues with Ubuntu releases I never had with Debian.
This is the case for clean systems, both without additional repositories or PPAs.
With PPAs it's getting even worse on Ubuntu.
In Debian I prefer to only include the semi-official mozilla repositories for a more modern browser. I tend to include backports with low preference so that I can pull in backports if wanted or needed. Never had any issues with doing so.
I know about SolusOS but prefer plain Debian or those like CrunchBang or Siduction.
Greetings from Germany
113 • @ 112 Pierre (by Chanath on 2013-06-01 00:11:53 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"I experience a lot of issues with Ubuntu releases I never had with Debian."
Well...
Like I said before, if you keep the car in the garage, you won't get into an accident. With the older long range stable kernel, and older Gnome shell/KDE/XFCE/LXDE etc, of course, Debian would not break that easily.
If a guy runs, he might slip & fall and get some scratches, but if a guy keeps on looking at his feet while walking, been so careful, might hit a lamppost with the top of his head.
Nothing is permanent and stable in this world, Pierre.
Number of Comments: 113
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