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1 • Bergeron's more adoptions of the Linux desktop (by Bob on 2013-03-18 09:55:02 GMT from Germany)
As desktop analyst you are completely wrong Mrs Bergeron! I wonder how are you Fedora Project Leader!? People don't like Mac cuz it is pretty, People like Mac cuz it just works. Maybe that was just wonder for you to open a laptop and see how wonderful is the technic world.
Now Mac and windows are more stable than Linux at least in part of the X server. They work on laptops at least without problem on power management. Think about multimedia support....
...and yes Windows and Mac managers think about how pretty are GUI and icons!
Mrs Bergeron just look at Fedora 18 and you will find out why desktop linux is dead. Installer is buggy, Gnome 3.6 is buggy and ugly and is not enough for day to day use, seahorse doesn't start, Kernel has still power regression problem, users are not satisfied with Nvidia and ATI drivers, every now and then sound server has problem, bluetooth interface has problem,.......... I have not this problems on my computer at home. I work in an enough big company with different hardwares(linux installed) and I have enough experience to tell you more.
If you have no problem on linux desktop then I do believe that you don't really "use" your desktop.
Ohh yeah...! I forgot that linux is free! I was wrong! Excuse me....
2 • aLinux (by Mike on 2013-03-18 10:21:42 GMT from Netherlands)
Great to see aLinux come to life again. Peanut Linux was the first distro I ever used. Only took 70-80mb, which was nice because in those days I had no broadband internet.
I wish LinuxKid succes with his distro and I will install aLinux on an old laptop soon!
3 • @1 (by sum1 on 2013-03-18 10:21:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
......
"If you have no problem on linux desktop then I do believe you don't really "use" your desktop.
......
Excuse me....I don't use any desktop at all, I'm using a laptop with Chakra and Kali on the same hdd. I had no idea about Hackintosh (and Metro????).
4 • Question 1 : Xfiles (by dbrion on 2013-03-18 10:39:22 GMT from France)
"windows are more stable than Linux at least in part of the X server."
Does windows (cygwin is not a traditional windows part) have an X server?
Where?
5 • opensuse (by walter_j on 2013-03-18 11:15:02 GMT from Canada)
I used ubuntu until unity was introduced. I tried mint, but have had problems I couldn't resolve, so I tried opensuse 12.1, and have used opensuse since. I tried upgrading from 12.2, and although everything seemed to go good, I forgot to run the boot program in Yast after the upgrade, so I can't boot that partition anymore. I also installed the 12.3 RC 1 and 2, and the final release worked great, so I havent bothered trying to fix the boot issue. 12.3 looks to be one of the better releases so far, and KDE 4.10 is great. Amarok has had a lot of bugs fixed, and that alone was reason enough to upgrade from 12.2.
I also installed 12.3 KDE on a Lenovo X31 laptop. The install went well, but I couldn't get the wireless working. I reinstalled, but did not set up a separate home partition, and encrypted the drive. Although the wireless didn't work at first, I was able to turn it on eventually through some mysterious process, and everything worked flawlessly.
My only issue at work now is to decide between fuduntu and opensuse. Gnome 2 is great on fuduntu. I use Evolution, and the 2.28 version that comes with fuduntu doesn't work well with google calendar and contacts, so it's somewhat of a tradeoff. I'm also concerned that Evolution version 2 seems to have come to a dead end development wise: if so, I may have to make a decision on how to proceed into the future. All development for Evolution seems to be taking place with version 3 - which is a gnome 3 product, which I despise. The KDE PIM works well: esp. with google calendar, and the opensuse 12.3 release apparently fixes lots of bugs there too.
6 • Windows, OS X, and Linux (by Troy Banther on 2013-03-18 12:11:58 GMT from United States)
Woah! Talk about someone going off. I am a Linux and OS X person who currently works for a small city in a near 99 percent Windows environment. My Linux skill set tipped me this job since there are several Linux servers. My last job was a major Linux deployment at a university. I can say, without any reservation, that two-thirds of my current daily work is repairing broken Windows desktop systems. This includes Windows 7 desktops as a majority deployment. Windows can be broken just by minor web browsing. The largest pushback against deploying a Linux desktop is first the user base and management second. Management does not want to take the time to train or retrain its user base on a 'newer' and more stable platform when it's in the middle of doing daily business. In ten or so years, Microsoft will leave the desktop market and push for the more lucrative "web" or so-called "cloud" market. So the end of Windows may or may not be in the near future.
7 • dynebolic for multimedia production (by Magic Banana on 2013-03-18 12:24:33 GMT from Brazil)
Another 100% free software (FSF recommended) choice for musicians is dynebolic: http://www.dynebolic.org/download/
8 • Productivity Linux (by Sam Graf on 2013-03-18 13:01:45 GMT from United States)
My own experience in the small business context is that mission critical applications help drive OS choice. It's not entirely different from how it was in the early days of the microcomputer: Buy Commodore? Atari? TRS-80? Apple? The rule of thumb then was, buy into the platform that runs the software you need. It was that conventional wisdom that eventually established the IBM XT and AT (and clones) as "true" long term business machines.
For example, a non-profit organization I work with relies on Office both internally (e.g., Outlook and Access) and externally (e.g., interaction with other organizations). Windows itself (and all that might go with it in the enterprise) isn't necessarily the draw. That same organization uses iOS devices for tablets and phones.
So it seems to me that there are natural (and long standing) barriers to Linux adoption if Linux on the desktop can't provide a smooth transition path on the application front. As Ms. Bergeron observed, this may change if SaaS/cloud offerings bridge the gap. In the meantime, Linux on the desktop is realistic when this doesn't in fact complicate or reduce the efficiency of normal business operations. Otherwise, it isn't an obvious choice for business.
9 • @1 (by Ray on 2013-03-18 13:55:32 GMT from United States)
"If you have no problem on linux desktop then I do believe you don't really "use" your desktop."
I have 2 laptops running debian + mate, and my desktop is ubuntu 12,04 + mate, both are custom cobbled together by me. I have had no crashes, freezes, etc etc etc. I can even run Fallout 3 in wine just fine, something you CANT do on win7 without mods and fixes... So my only real question for you is... How much did micro$oft pay you to post that drivel here on DW?
10 • @9 (by greg on 2013-03-18 14:10:59 GMT from Slovenia)
it's good that it all works for you.
but the original post was about gnomeshell which you do not run as you've mentioned?
Furthermore you talk abotu custom laptop hardware - this is not how majority of consumers and companies do it.
11 • @8 you might be on to something (by greg on 2013-03-18 14:15:08 GMT from Slovenia)
I wonder if there was a MS office for linux if more businesses would consider it?
we use office docs and excel files mostly. i think (since no one is using some heavy formating) that we could just use LO. most other applicaitons have linux versions or good if not better alternatives. but then again linux doesn't bring any money to top management... which is another obsticle in the way of linux adoption.
12 • @10 (by Ray on 2013-03-18 14:18:30 GMT from United States)
I guess I should clarify. I meant my OS is custom built by me, NOT my PC's and hardware. I do agree tho, gnome 3 in general is a mess, which is why I use Mate, my point was that either post 1 is trolling, or doesnt have the experience in linux that s/he claims, as there are MANY tried and true well balanced non / commercial distros out there that are far more stable than windows. Perhaps his/her experience is with much older versions of some linux out there.....
13 • @11 (by Ray on 2013-03-18 14:20:22 GMT from United States)
Libreoffice
http://www.libreoffice.org/
14 • @9 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 14:46:31 GMT from Germany)
I didn't mean to hate linux or defend Windows but you need to know that:
Debian kernel is a bad and clumsy copy of Redhat's kernel then don't trust it... and you need to know how many bugs are open in debian channels about kernel and desktop related softwares. Debian is known for hibernate and suspend's crashes and you don't need to tell me that you have no problem etc etc. SSL security holes and samba crashes are still open on debian and the son ubuntu. Do i need to remember that packages are old in debian stable repos?!
Mate desktop is still young to be the choice of the people as desktop, and it is as buggy as gnome 3.6, ... not suitable colors and is not fast enough. About games and multimedia you can't defend linux... It is clear that you are not a linux "user"....adding mate repos to ubuntu and debian is not really "custom" linux as you think! Stay with your game over Wine.....If you use more and more linux you will find out that the way is shut in linux desktop.
Windows don't need to pay me when they have over 90% desktop market share....
15 • @ #6 (by Rick on 2013-03-18 15:08:52 GMT from United States)
...hmm...bad comparison there. If I worked as a Ford mechanic at a Ford dealership, all I would be working on is Fords all day. That doesn't mean other brands don't break down. I've been running both Windows XP and Debian based Linux distros for years without any major problems. Just like with an automobile, it's how you treat it. Do stupid things with you car, you break it. Do stupid things to your OS, you break it. Although I have no experience with Mac, I'm sure that any OS can run strong for a long time as long as you take the time and learn the system and maintain it properly.
16 • @14 (by Sam Graf on 2013-03-18 15:21:05 GMT from United States)
I can only speak as a Debian user, but I use Debian every day at work and at home. I don't try games or much multimedia on my Debian stuff (I have newer hardware and toys for that), and my work-related tasks involve pretty well-established productivity stuff like GIMP, Inkscape, Geany, and so forth (and until Debian's old versions cause me problems, I don't care if they are old versions). I didn't have time to argue anymore with the growing list of problems I was having with my previous "based on Debian" Linux distribution of choice, so a few months back I gave "plain old" Debian a(nother) try (I'm not always good at figuring out Debian's "quirks" so had never used it routinely, until now). I've yet to encounter the nightmare you describe. It's not that I dislike Windows or have great problems there either (I use Vista and 7), but my sense is that Debian on the desktop in particular and probably Linux desktops in general are not in as bad of shape as you describe.
17 • @14 (by SilentSam on 2013-03-18 15:23:26 GMT from Canada)
You raise some interesting points.
Yes there are a ton of bugs in Debian, and they are known. This is because Debian is Open Source. It's not like Mac/MS are advertising their security holes to the world.
Mac isn't really comparable in the compatibility dept. Their OS is designed to run on very specific hardware, and doesn't need to apply to the other chipsets/combinations that Linux does. I find Linux has quite a few more trivial issues than Windows, but far less major ones. To each their own I guess.
As far as stability goes between Win/Linux, at work I had to replace my Win7 installation with a Kubuntu one because Win7 was BSODing too much. For document writing LibreOffice does the job. I'm a SysAdmin, and a combination of Krdc/VBox w/ RSAT tools allow me to remotely manage anything windows based, plus now I have the added benefit of native SSH tools.
18 • @12 et al (by Rick on 2013-03-18 15:24:29 GMT from United States)
First off, yeah, sounds like #1 is a troll trolling. But, I do have to say, it sure seems that computers in general are less stable than they were about 5 years ago. That goes for Linux as well as Windows and OSX. Everythings just a little more ...buggy than it used to be. I don't know if it's because of the mobile device craze, the graphics card wars or just the general rate at which hardware is being developed, but somewhere along the way we became a lot more tolerant for bugs in the name of having the shiniest OS on the surface.
19 • Q 9 : Is Red Hat GNU/linux (just curious)? (by dbrion on 2013-03-18 15:27:09 GMT from France)
Well, putting together the worst parts of GNUlinux , scanning distributions in order to find the buggiest pieces of software, then putting all the bugs together (making a kind of Frankenstein distribution) is not that convincing..
"Debian kernel is a bad and clumsy copy of Redhat's kernel then don't trust it."
Is Red Hat GNU/linux (just curious)?
20 • some music applications and no major problems runing linux (by avelinus on 2013-03-18 15:39:03 GMT from Portugal)
I've a pentium 4 486 3ghz with 2gb ram runing Zorin lucid 10.04 with some music applications like gtkGuitune and lingot, tuners, tuxguitar (free guitar pro (music score sheet and tablature writer ) and musescore (music score sheet writer ) gtick (metronome) audacity, sound recorder. On my lpatop hp I5 520 also with zorin 10.04, Sabayon 11 Kde 64gb I usually make guitar videos with guvcview but audio play faster than video. I'm not a gamer enthusiast so i love my linux even when i have problems open some docx from my work friends or my document dosen't arrive them as i made it. Some times must use ubuntu because my Canon printer only has drivers for lucid 10.10 and later. I installed it on a desktop quad core 2.33ghz were my children work and enjoy without problems windows 7. Last saturday, my nephew arrives from England were He bought a Sumsung with a I5. At his mother's home goes to her acer quad core 2,5ghz desktop with an ATI radeon runing Ubuntu 12.10. She asks me for help each 3 days with windows 7 bugs with facebook. My nephew was surprised with the speed brouwsing the web. And told that it's betters than windows.
21 • @14 (by Ray on 2013-03-18 15:47:04 GMT from United States)
Bob, your response is much appreciated. Your initial post came across as both insulting and condescending, but by your reply I see you did not intend them to be. For clarification, by "custom" I mean I start with debian / ubuntu net or mini ISO's and install the base from there. From that point I add my desired repo's and after examining the contents online (and ALOT of experimenting in vbox beforehand lol) I simply add and install my DE and progs to suit the use of the particular machine involved, for example my smallest notebook (netbook really) is simply nothing more than an ereader / web browser lol. I find it easier than grabbing a pre-built distro, and removing what I DONT want or need. As for not being a linux user, I have used linux over windows for almost 10 years now, in the past keeping windows on one machine for the purpose of gaming only..... That is now starting to change, thank you valve. For the record, me personally, I have never had nearly as many issues with linux as I have with windows. As for 90% of market share, I believe your numbers are quite antiquated nowadays, perhaps you should update your statistic sources.....
22 • @14 (by GrzegorzW on 2013-03-18 16:08:36 GMT from Poland)
It looks you're repeating some dump opinions from internet and light arguments without proof.
I and my family are using Debian and Ubuntus (and ocasionally Mandriva/Mageia) since 2007 on 2 desktops and 3 laptops which are in my house. I did not experience any single problem with debian based kernels, just few easily fixed problems with file systems - mostly related to old HDD hardware. My chldren are happy with Unity (including my son who is gaming a lot), my wife with XFCE and I am with KDE (since 4.5 version).
None of us ever need to suspend or hibernate system as KDM/KDE gives me automatic session storage and all programs are restored in exact state after full reboot.
Also we did not have any single security issue anong the way.
I can play all multimadia I need and also convert between formats without problem after I grab right packages from distro native repositories.
I only use rarely Wine for just 2 things: fill my TAX sheet with cauntry specific program, ocasionally use a small program to present and solve chess studies.
I'm also very HAPPY to KNOW and be able to TRACK all the issues in all the programs I trust and use daily (from debian or ubuntu repos).
It does not look that I'm finding any shut ways or think about changing OS in any close future.
Regarding businesses AFAIK one of the most prominent campany - Google uses Ubuntu-close Linux on most of their engineers work environments.
This is site and forum for Linux users, if you use and like Windows, that's okay and I don't have anything against, but do not troll here.
23 • @21 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 16:44:20 GMT from Germany)
Dear Ray! Here in DW goes a semi serious discussion about the future of linux desktop and if the words hurt you stay away from it. There are insulting and condescending here and there but if you want to hear others you need to be calm. It seems you want just to defend your custom way(it is still not custom) of installing linux but for developers desktop linux is a platform to work. Developers want to know to stay on gnome shell(or other DEs) or making codes for smart phones and other more succeed markets?!
As Wikipedia shows Windows desktop has 91.82% market share in 2013... Now my numbers are not antiquated... Here you are....
24 • @14 (by Microlinux on 2013-03-18 16:49:02 GMT from France)
The french army uses Debian GNU/Linux on their servers. And the police force (Gendarmerie Nationale) switched from Windows to Ubuntu LTS on their 85.000 desktops.
So much for lack of stability.
25 • @22 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 17:01:22 GMT from Germany)
Be cool man! Stay and stick to your experiences on linux desktop. I wonder how you read and understand just Windows part from my words!!
I am happy to hear you feel secure in the most dangerous zone of internet on the world with linux desktop.
Google uses a custom linux....
What is troll?! If someone is not at your side is not your enemy!
26 • @1@24 (by kernelKurtz on 2013-03-18 17:32:00 GMT from United States)
Now we know you're trolling.
Try 57%, not 91. Per Wikimedia. Last month.
http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2013-02/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
The rest of your "facts" are just as FUDful.
27 • Just a quote from your wikipedia "source" (by Ray on 2013-03-18 17:44:03 GMT from United States)
There is little openly published information on the usage share of desktop and laptop computers. Gartner publishes estimates, but the way the estimates are calculated is not openly published. Also, sales may overstate usage. Most computers are sold with a pre-installed OS; some users replace that OS with a different one due to personal preference. Conversely, sales underestimate usage by not counting pirated copies. For example, in 2009, "U.S. research firm IDC estimated that 80% of software sold in China last year was pirated." (Windows was mentioned, but no specific estimate for Windows was given.)[2] As another example, in 2007, the automated push of IE7 update onto legal copies of Windows, contrasted with web browser share statistics, led one author to "estimate that 25%–35% of all Windows XP machines are illegal"
28 • That being said.... (by Ray on 2013-03-18 17:51:42 GMT from United States)
Its almost impossible to accurately guage OS percentages especially in the case of linux, as its a FREE OS, therefore theres not even "sales" records to go by, and no invasive spying and tracking built into the OS to report your usage... Now, to end this petty bickering, I will say I am happy you love your microsoft products, and wish you long life with them, however, this is a website that caters mostly to linux users and OS's so, I believe I can say that most (if not all) readers and staff here DONT appreciate your trolling ways of coming in here and insulting our choice of OS, whatever it may be. Which is EXACTLY what you are doing. Constructive criticism is welcome here, insults, and rudeness are not. If you have nothing nice, pertinent, or helpful to say, then dont say anything. Finally, I do have to say I am truly sorry you had such a horifyingly negative experience with linux that you feel you must come here and make nothing but negative and unhelpful comments....
29 • Desktop (by AdmV0rl0n on 2013-03-18 18:10:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Linux desktop has not made inroads because its not been good enough. Simple. Harsh. Reality. And too few understand the needs in the Linux world - where in desktop terms, poor, inadaquate, or average levels are often being viewed as good enough.
Distrowatch picks up on this via its interest in Distro's. Linux Mint is top because those guys have garnered a feel for the desktop and care to a delivery level at a way that Linux generally fails at. They probably actually need much deeper help and support - but they very much have the right kind of idea and flavour of what is needed and required. But it needs to be deeper and wider for Linux to make that proper leap.
And I'll add. I don't think current trends are good for the Linux desktop at all. The application layers are stagnant. The ui apart from cinnamon is the same and many devs and companies are moving to the cloud being both the server and caring little what happens at client side.
And not good for the PC industry at all either. Its going to be replaced by a lot of closed hardware, that will seemingly run closed or locked down OS's - again, very bad for Linux.
30 • @26 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 18:18:08 GMT from Germany)
NO! You and your friends trolling:
See summary section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. (Mark Twain)
31 • Sales figure (opposed to usage) are more interesting (@29) (by dbrion on 2013-03-18 18:19:27 GMT from France)
"Also, sales may overstate usage."
But it is the only relevant source of information (I have a W7 computer: even if I never use W7 -except for defragmenting NTFS disks -tiny usage- -, I paid for it and Microsoft is happy -BTW never destroy your Windows when installing GNU linux; if you change your mind, Microsoft might be **twice** happier).
Caitlyn Martin estimated in 2010 (with Microsoft statistics, ironically) that GNU linux had ca 8% of the "sales", MacOS 10%. Since these days, tablets and smartphones arrived (and very few of them use Windows to day)
32 • @30 (by Ray on 2013-03-18 18:23:18 GMT from United States)
I refer you to comment 27 which is a DIRECT QUOTE from the self same article you are so devoutly standing by....
33 • @28 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 18:39:30 GMT from Germany)
You speech just as bully as your politicians! There is just one truth and that one is yours!? And all of the world is at your side!? Nice.... You are not a linux fan... After 10 years using linux(as you said) you can not defend linux desktop! You just stuck to Windows to talk to me! Why don't you say something about Fedora and Debian or Ubuntu's bugs and Disabilities? Mac users are 5 times more than Linux, cuz Mac is nice?! When Linux has no problem and wonderful and free why just has about 2% of desktop shares?!
It seems Linux is free but talking about Linux is not free!!
34 • @14 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-03-18 18:51:44 GMT from Canada)
Speaking as a Red Hat employee, no, Debian's kernel is not in any way "a bad and clumsy copy of Redhat's kernel".
35 • @32 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 19:20:46 GMT from Germany)
And I refer you to this truth that there are about 1 Billion computer users in the world(suppose you have enough skills to search in Google). Fedora says that has about 9 million users and Ubuntu says they have about 8 million users. This claim is not true and the sum of the last 3 releases (connected from unique IPs) are less. Supposing they have the sum of 20 million users and the rest of 500 Linux distros have 10 million users, the total Linux users are about 3% of total PC users. And one third of this users still have Windows at home!
This time don't take me as Windows defender and tell us what to do for Linux desktop to stay away from trolling.
36 • @34 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 19:27:55 GMT from Germany)
You don't have enough right to claim something as a Red Hat employee in forums as an official matter.
But just as an example you can read here to know how Debian kernel developers try to patch and maintain their kernel:
http://raphaelhertzog.com/2011/02/17/people-behind-debian-maximilian-attems-member-of-the-kernel-team/
37 • Figures should not be based on the worst counting methodology @35 (by dbrion on 2013-03-18 19:42:45 GMT from France)
"the sum of the last 3 releases (connected from unique IPs) are less."
Adding fancy figures leads to fancier results.
Well, adding IP (and one can change IP, or, like in business, not be connected to the wild, wild net) is the worst methodoly one can figure out to know how many GNUlinux computers exist : there are huge biases, depending on what servers IP counts are made (say, the results might be **slightly** different if you have only Debian package manager site to count IPs or if you count only the Microsoft help site????).
38 • Windows vs Linux (by Shrek on 2013-03-18 19:53:39 GMT from United States)
Yesterday while waiting for a link from a friend my system was hijacked. Shutting it down, booting to a linux antivirus iso, then cleaning the system.. again (mind you, it has a fully functioning and updated version of a pricey antivirus program) makes me wonder why people put up with windows.
Windows is terribly insecure. I never shop in a windows OS.
39 • @37 (by Bob on 2013-03-18 20:13:49 GMT from Germany)
But these are not fancy and not from Microsoft help sites:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
Can you and your friends as known as great linux desktop users try to search and then write?! please!
40 • @39 Guerre des Chiffres (by dbrion on 2013-03-18 20:33:20 GMT from France)
The idea of counting from web statistics is a very bad one (some computers, such as the French army and gendarmerie {ca 300000 out of 30 M computers : it is already 1%} -and tons of supermarket cash register -use Red Hat in my town-, are not connected to the web).
Biases are too huge and the intellectual value is ... questionable....
It is not a matter of their origin....
Numbers of downloads are not reliable, too (in my job, one mini install CD is used for 1500 PCs)....
Caitlyn Martins based her computation on Microsoft sales figures (unless they cheat their auctioneers, may be it is reliable).
Sorry, I have no time for copying and pasting web adresses without some reflection. And I am not at your orders....
41 • @35 (by notsure on 2013-03-18 20:57:50 GMT from United States)
"Supposing they have the sum of 20 million users and the rest of 500 Linux distros have 10 million users, the total Linux users are about 3% of total PC users." It's true because you said so
42 • Enough. (by Ray on 2013-03-18 21:00:07 GMT from United States)
Ok my friends, time to stop feeding the troll, lets move on with real discussions...
43 • Linux on the Desktop (by Koro on 2013-03-18 21:05:47 GMT from Belgium)
There are many reasons why Linux is not more widely adopted an I think all the guys who commented here are partially right. Yes, owning a beautiful toy is the main (the main, not the only one) driving force behind purchasing Apple hardware. Yes, most people are reluctant to change and prefer using what they know, no matter how bad its. Yes, some people just do not know better. Yes, some people are just happy with Windows. Yes, MS has plenty of lobbyists. Yes Linux is lacking certain professional-grade applications.. Etcetera.
But let's not forget: Apple and MS systems come preinstalled, as does Android and any other popular OS in the world. This is reason number one.
Then it comes hardware support. Linux is far from being perfect on that particular domain. But, no other OS has to do the tremendous effort of trying to support every single device on Earth. MS does not need to do it because hardware producers do it for them. No hardware manufacturer would release a device without releasing drivers compatible and well tested with all major versions of Windows. Apple does not need to do it, because their OS is only intended to run in the specific hardware configurations they assemble and, even if hardware manufacturers also try to produce Mac drivers, Apple support for peripherals is not better than Linux's.
My 2c.
44 • Why the Linux desktop hasn't "taken off" (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2013-03-18 21:18:47 GMT from United States)
Bob is actually close. Not only does the Linux desktop often not work, the reason it hasn't taken off is precisely because people *aren't* willing to pay for it! A minimum viable product is *not* viable if there are no *paying* customers.
45 • @Bob: (by dragonmouth on 2013-03-18 21:23:58 GMT from United States)
Since 85.3% of all statistics on the Internet are made up, I will take your numbers with a lot of salt.
46 • @ Bob etc. (by ned on 2013-03-18 21:31:28 GMT from Austria)
I'd like to know where you got the idea that
"Debian kernel is a bad and clumsy copy of Redhat's kernel"?
Might it be from reading but not quite understanding the [interesting, thanks!] interview in the link you posted in 36? There it's stated quite clearly what kernel is used.
47 • @ M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (by dragonmouth on 2013-03-18 21:33:36 GMT from United States)
Most of the people stating that "Not only does the Linux desktop often not work" are Windows users. They expect every interface in every O/S to work like Windows. If it does not, then it is not ready for prime time.
Of course, you could just not know Linux. In which case, no matter what desktop it had, it would often not work for you.
48 • @Bob (by Charles on 2013-03-18 21:54:04 GMT from Mexico)
"When Linux has no problem and wonderful and free why just has about 2% of desktop shares?!"
For the same reason that made you dislike Linux.
Hardware manufacturers.
No matter how good is Linux.
Less matter that Windows is so insecure.
If you have some brains, you will understand:
99% of computers sold with Windows installed, 90% of people who buy these computers, all they know is play, surf, chat and use the "office", have no basic knowledge or care to know systems operating. The result:
90% of the PC's continue with Windows installed and that also explains the market share.
Manufacturers also are responsible for your frustration in Linux.
The majority of them are not interested in Linux.
Just provide drivers only for windows.
And if any care about Linux users, provide lousy drivers.
We, the open source programmers, we are not magicians, is difficult to develop drivers if manufacturers do not support us.
If you need more examples of hardware-market relationship, here is another:
95% of smartphones sold with android and ios installed.
Only 5% is sold with Windows Phone.
That explains why the market share is dominated by Linux (Android), followed by iOS (iPhone) and a minority of windows phone. (Only one brand: Nokia, in minor way, Because They sold more asha phones)
Unfortunately, manufacturers have the power, and Microsoft already know, because they are selling OEM licenses of Windows 8 at a ridiculous price, any manufacturer who prefer to sell tablets surface above installed android tablets.
If this marketing strategy does not work for Microsoft, is lost.
Because the future is in mobile technology, where Microsoft is not nobody.
49 • for all the windows fud, troll etc (by sum1 on 2013-03-18 22:02:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
Don't forget to add sauce to internet statistic....
1. Did you know, your Pirate Windows copy and Hackintosh statistic and information was sent to MS and Apple company? Statistic? Wikimedia? Kiss my ass!
2. Did you receive regular update running XP on Pentium 2, or your OSX on G3? If not, don't even bother bout the statistic.
50 • Linux Desktop .... (by ned on 2013-03-18 22:12:44 GMT from Austria)
Just an example, from the Trisquel Forum, today:
-- Yesterday put Trisquel 6.0 LTS Toutatis with GNOME desktop. Today downloaded and installed the update, and eventually lost the lower panel... What can you suggest?
-- ALT+F2 and input
rm ~/.config/dconf/user
.......
Just imagine your average secretary trying to keep her Linux up to date in this way ...
That's exactly the problem with the Linux Desktop.
And I've been using Linux for >10 years, on x86 and PPC, Debian and last 2 years also Ubuntu, and know what I'm talking about ...
51 • Debian V. RHEL (by mz on 2013-03-18 22:22:01 GMT from United States)
If you look at the DW pages for Red Hat & Debian 2 of the past 5 releases have been based on the same kernel. That's an interesting coincidence, but it doesn't mean anything. Neither does the fact that some Debian dev was annoyed by the way the RHEL kernel has become less transparent. That's just the fallout from Oracle fighting with Red Hat.
52 • Updating (by greg on 2013-03-18 23:08:24 GMT from United States)
If many people are having trouble with their OS after updates, an option would be to disable their automatic updates. That's what I tend to do. Right or wrong, I seem to have smoother sailing that way.
53 • OpenSUSE (by RayRay on 2013-03-18 23:21:35 GMT from United States)
OpenSUSE 12.3 is making it so hard to choose, they have just made aother beautful and snappy KDE desktop and also a beautiful functional Gnome Shell desktop. They look so good you don't even have to cange theming. YAST is also working great!
Upgraded KDE4 on my desktop PC and switched to Gnome Shell for my laptop. Still running Windows for work though, because of two proprietary programs (one works only in IE the other refuses to work with WINE).
54 • @50 (by SilentSam on 2013-03-18 23:39:27 GMT from Canada)
I've done IT and Admin work for 6+ years, and can tell you I've had to fix many similar issues for Windows computers that secretaries have no clue about.
Secretary - "My Outlook is frozen. I rebooted and it's still frozen"
IT Script - "Delete c:\Documents and Settings\\Local Settings\Application Data\Microsoft\Outlook\Outlook.ost" - And half of these folders are hidden.
I'm not saying that fixing Linux issues is easier. I'm just saying that in an office environment, stuff happens. BTW, I set my Grandmother up with Ubuntu 8.04 a few years back. The only problem she ever had with it is that the repos stopped giving up to date Flash and Firefox.
55 • Windows (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-19 00:04:19 GMT from United States)
I'm getting sick of this Windows trolling. I came to DistroWatch today to read a little about some new distros, and came to the comments section expecting to read a little about MINIX. But what did I found? The same old clueless trolling about Windows.
Do you really think "Linux" as you say is desperate for new users or more desktop market share? Linux already dominates on the server and mobile markets, but even if it didn't, what is the problem? If I had a restaurant and made money out of it, should I have to close just because my "market share" isn't comparable to that of McDonalds? Or should my mother stop cooking because she has not a market share? Yes, that sounds stupid, just as stupid as the "statistics".
The time you spend fixing some annoyance on your DE you would have to spend doing system maintenance on Windows anyway (or wrestling against the antitrust behaviour from the company behind it). If you need something stable, why not installing something that has been proved to be stable, like Xfce4, for example? I have been using it for 4 years and it has not crashed a single time.
And if you're happy with Windows, we are even happier for you, but do you need to go around annoying the hell out of others?
56 • OpenSuse 12.3 (by Bob on 2013-03-19 00:41:47 GMT from Austria)
64-bit KDE works great on 2 of my systems, the third wants me to stick with oSu 12.2 (Fedora 18 won't work either). Let's just attribute that to "general hardware problems" because OSS software is "bug-less by design", isn't it? ;-)
57 • @55 (by CraigThacker on 2013-03-19 02:57:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
I totally agree with you.
Lets stick with the real oses (Linux and BSD) that this site is dedicated to.
Best regards
58 • Windows trolling @55, etc (by gregzeng on 2013-03-19 03:44:16 GMT from Australia)
DW discussions are one of the best things in DW imo. Like Bob, I have had small-minded obsessives who see on-topic discussion offensive, rude, 'trolling', etc. So they shoot the messenger, r.t. read the message.
Like most (all?) readers here, I want Linux to be more popular than it is. As advocates of a 1% minority, I am seen as weird, 'trolling', etc. Despite the midge-bites here, it has been interesting the self-disclosures of how devoted users really are using Linux. Like myself, we sys-admin for many others around us, but need M$-W7 to service needs not yet met by Linux.
No op-sys is perfect. I don't like being a despised, distrusted minority, so anything about flaws or shortcomings about myself - please let me know. I've grown-up now, unlike many children
59 • openSUSE 12.3 Gnome live dvd (by gnomic on 2013-03-19 06:17:31 GMT from New Zealand)
Downloaded the i686 live DVD of openSUSE 12.3 - was hoping for a pleasant experience, as SuSE was the first distro I ever got working back in the 90s. Alas, I have not been having a lot of fun. I was baffled when the live DVD never reached a desktop. It just sat at the splash screen with a spinning cursor. Eventually I found that by opening a terminal session via CTRL+ALT it was possible to observe a running system. On typing 'startx' Gnome 3 finally appeared. Found this behaviour on 4 machines with various Intel and nvidia video. How very bizarre I said, or something along those lines that may have been more acerbic.
Then I found that NetworkManager was not functioning, and could not be made to work easily - not only was nm-applet not appearing in the gui, but there seemed to be deeper problems with NM itself. Again the same result on all machines.
Anybody else seen these problems? The checksum of the iso was good and another DVD iso of a different distro burned on the same machine in the same session worked OK. The iso came from a usually reliable mirror. It seems incredible that such a mess could have become generally available.
60 • @51 (by Bob on 2013-03-19 06:41:17 GMT from Germany)
"If you look at the DW pages for Red Hat & Debian 2 of the past 5 releases have been based on the same kernel. That's an interesting coincidence, but it doesn't mean anything."
Why it doesn't mean anything? It does mean that Debian developers have no clue to do anything with kernel and they just do what Redhat did.
61 • @49 (by Bob on 2013-03-19 07:00:00 GMT from Germany)
"Don't forget to add sauce to internet statistic...."
Internet statistics doesn't smell as bad as your mind, don't need to add sauce...
"1. Did you know, your Pirate Windows copy and Hackintosh statistic and information was sent to MS and Apple company? Statistic? Wikimedia? Kiss my ass!"
When statistics excruciate you and your ass itches, you can show your ass to gays to kiss.
"2. Did you receive regular update running XP on Pentium 2, or your OSX on G3? If not, don't even bother bout the statistic."
Why you and your nerd friends don't write something about linux desktop and all of you just stick to Windows?! Is it honor for you to have a new and modern hardware?!
62 • @58 (by dbrion on 2013-03-19 07:22:36 GMT from France)
"As advocates of a 1% minority"
well, one can find figures based on reasoning, not on copying/pasting opinion based on web "statistics" (the methodology for collecting such web "based" is absurd) here http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/debunking-the-1-myth.html
63 • @48 (by Bob on 2013-03-19 07:26:53 GMT from Germany)
"Hardware manufacturers."
They are as stupid as all of the people around the world!
"No matter how good is Linux."
People don't know anything.
"Less matter that Windows is so insecure."
Noadays with Metasploit Linux is insecure as Windows. Look at www.zone-h.org and you will findout how Linux is insecure.
"If you have some brains, you will understand......99% of computers..."
I told you I have no brain...
"Manufacturers also are responsible for your frustration in Linux.
The majority of them are not interested in Linux."
I have no problem with Linux. I am a Unix and Solaris admin with 30 years experience.
"Just provide drivers only for windows......"
Just as an example Intel provides drivers for Linux but gnome-shell still hangs on Intel! Where is the problem? Kernel, g-shell or X, hardware?!
"Because the future is in mobile technology, where Microsoft is not nobody."
The future is in Cloud computing and web 2.0....
64 • Linux on the desktop (by Vinze on 2013-03-19 07:34:56 GMT from Netherlands)
Guys...just get alife.
It doesn't matter if Linux wil be fully adopted on the desktop market. Just work with the system that's works best for you. Linus is free and i like it!
65 • @59 (by Bob on 2013-03-19 07:39:20 GMT from Germany)
Just type this on terminal:
#service network start
It is not a big problem for Linux desktop! It is really normal for Linux desktop that they don't know about software engineering. OpenSUSE as one of the best Linux desktops has some problems like this after many milestones and RCs. Network Manager doesn't start, bootlocal doesn't work.....
66 • @50 Secretaries (by Koro on 2013-03-19 09:17:28 GMT from Belgium)
Are you kidding me? Do you know of any company in which secretaries (or whatever other personnel except for system administrators) are carrying out system updates? And good system administrators test the effects of any update very carefully in a local environment before allowing it to propagate site-wide.
In any case, Trisquel is an amateur OS based upon another OS (Ubuntu) which is not famous because of its stability. So you are comparing apples and oranges here. If you want to compare, you should try RHEL.
67 • State of Linux (by RobertD on 2013-03-19 10:14:09 GMT from United States)
Define "Just Works"
Very few comments actually have very little to do with the OS/Kernel.
Don't just say Linux doesn't work because software A or software B isn't developed to work natively on Linux.
Windows more than any other system get developers attention. Simply because that's where most of the intended, targeted audience can be found.
Wallmart is successful because of volume and quantity not necessarily quality.
I bootstrap my own personalized kernel and then compile in my choice of software. My system in no way could be defined as "Just Works". I use a text browser (most of the time) and choose to spend 98% of my time operating via a terminal.
Stability is no more or no less than any other OS.
Security, To quote my OS of choice "Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!"
Most of what I say is jibberish anyway....
68 • *buntu beta 1 out (by dmatt on 2013-03-19 10:15:19 GMT from Slovakia)
All *buntu variants except Ubuntu itself released their 13.04 betas last week, go ahead and try them if you are interested (generally *buntu.org sites work). All should be pretty stable. Not sure why Distrowatch ignored all of them expcept Edubuntu.
69 • Linux (by Odones on 2013-03-19 11:02:26 GMT from France)
Ive been using linux for several years along with windows systems.
After trying several distros and flavours I have installed: Ubuntu (LTS) on the desktop machine for the last 2 or 4 years without any problems, and Slitaz 4.0 on the old desktop. Laptop with Ubuntu and now using openSUSE 12.2, and I always have problems with powersaving (the batery is simple out after 1 hour or 2) and screen resolution.
As a windows XP, Vista and 7 user since I stopped installing some games & software, like with cracks, keygens and odd stuff, All the problems stopped too.
I think windows and linux, both of them have some PROS and CONS, and as posted before: I use OS and programs I like better.
ahhh, about the statistics: I think we can not compare desktop OS with mobile OS, because we do not use a desktop and its tool the same way we use a mobile phone or a tablet.
We can compare for example internet access with all the OSs. And of course the mobile world today is getting a bigger slice of the market (and growing).
have fun with the comments..
70 • RE: 68 *buntu beta 1 out (by ladislav on 2013-03-19 11:04:23 GMT from Taiwan)
Not sure why Distrowatch ignored all of them expcept Edubuntu.
Please read the Edubuntu announcement again. It does include mentions of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc.
71 • RE:70 *buntu beta 1 out (by dmatt on 2013-03-19 13:27:46 GMT from Slovakia)
I have not read smallprint in Edubuntu announcement before.
Next time maybe list more flavour names directly in NeswHeadLine.
I hope all flavours get decent testing exposure before release.
72 • MINIX (by Nate on 2013-03-19 15:03:06 GMT from United States)
Thank you for doing a MINIX review. I asked for one in the comments a few weeks ago. I appreciate this review, even if the OS is a little obscure.
73 • Perfect OS (by DavidEF on 2013-03-19 16:05:35 GMT from United States)
Wow, it's really getting crazy around here! As I've said before, EVERY OS is a compromise in some way. There is no such thing as a perfect OS. They ALL have shortcomings! Why should linux be the only one held to such an impossible standard as perfection? And why do people feel the need to come on DW and troll? What does one hope to gain? Here's a novel idea: use what you like, let others do the same!
I use linux because the benefits of using it are greater than any benefits I've found in other operating systems, and the problems it presents me are less troubling to me than the problems I find in other operating systems. I willingly - even enthusiastically - give up the supposed benefits of using the preinstalled OS, because I find linux to be more useful to me in real life.
Why do people think they have to trample on other people? Why do you have to say my toys, my tools, my house or my cars are junk? Do you really need to trash my stuff in order to justify your own stuff? Grow up! If you have a useful and constructive criticism, by all means, share it. If you're just gonna spew hate, go somewhere else!
74 • @72 @65 (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-19 16:58:35 GMT from Brazil)
@Nate you should try HaikuOS if you haven't already.
@Bob "Look at www.zone-h.org and you will findout how Linux is insecure." You just speak from random websites you have visited, we speak from our experience. zone-h.org doesn't show by any means that "Linux" is less secure than Windows, it actually shows the opposite, since Linux dominates on servers, and most hacked servers shown are Windows servers!!!
Also, your whining was all about GNU/Linux desktop, and now you're trying to prove the desktop is insecure based on attacks on servers that have open services running on them???
It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. Go get a life.
75 • 73 Perfect OS (by mandog on 2013-03-19 17:18:48 GMT from Peru)
David some very strong words you have used but very accurate as well, I for one agree with your sentiments 100%. Linux is also my personal choice, The DE is also my personal choice, the applications are also my personal choice. Windows comes also free when I buy a computer. I choose not to use it and use Linux its my choice as Linux does all I need with no hassle.
76 • @75 (by dbrion on 2013-03-19 18:46:01 GMT from France)
"Windows comes also free when I buy a computer"
No, you pay for it (or your seller has already paid for it -I bet he does not want to get bankrupt...) : it just comes.
BTW: windows is very complicated to install w/r to user friendly GNUlinux distributions such as Mageia... (I suppose there are others) : I was surprised at an internet cafe : the very competent landlord suffered a lot installing it.
77 • Windows install (by DavidEF on 2013-03-19 20:30:07 GMT from United States)
"BTW: windows is very complicated to install w/r to user friendly GNUlinux distributions such as Mageia... (I suppose there are others)"
I've found that to be true as anything can be. I hate having to install Windows. By the time you get all the updates installed, applications, tweaks, and so forth, it can be DAYS!
Ubuntu takes maybe an hour or so, with all the extra applications I install on my machines. Much faster, much simpler, much less of a headache.
78 • @76 (by mandog on 2013-03-19 20:54:13 GMT from Peru)
No, you pay for it (or your seller has already paid for it -I bet he does not want to get bankrupt...) : it just comes.
That is not strictly correct It costs more to buy the same make of computer without windows when you can find a manufacturer that will supply you with one? Dell were more expensive with Ubuntu, Most won't honour the warranty if you remove windows.
So to the user point of view its a free to have it installed. Just a technical point
And as said above where I live it literally takes days to update win7 with a 56kb connection.
79 • @ 60 • @51 (by Bob) (by Pierre on 2013-03-19 20:59:10 GMT from Germany)
Actually that mentioned 'coincidence' is not happening by chance. But the reason is not that the Debian guys have no clue about kernel work. You really should have read the quote by Mark Twain.
However. Ever heard of LTS kernel releases?
LTS is no invention by the Ubuntu guys anyways and because Debian and Red Hat are both aiming at very stable and rock solid business class systems meant for productive use they prefer the LTS kernel over others.
So, next time get informed before pissing of the Debian guys. I claim most of them forgot more about kernel work than you will ever learn!
Have fun and a nice evening.
Greetings.
Pierre
80 • installing windows (by wolf on 2013-03-19 21:33:29 GMT from Germany)
@ 78 I second that.
Long time windows user and installer that I am I offered my help buying a laptop for a close friend. If I recall correctly we baught a Lenovo Laptop without OS cause it was the only one who satisfied all of my friends needs at the time. She insisted on Windows so we bought win 7 and I promised to install it properly. What a dumbass one could be. Using all kinds of windows preinstalled on many machines it never occurred to me what a hassle I was in for.
Long story short with all windows updates included I had a running system 46 hours after I first started installing. I admit one little mistake I made (lenovos website confused me) cost me 10 hours install time which one can subtract. Everything else went as planned so 36 hours seemed to be the minimum and my Internet connection has nothing to do with that.
Just because that annoyed the hell out of me I chose to install (ubuntu or mint I don't recall) as a secondary OS that took another hour including Office and whatnot. Since this experience I try to avoid Windows whereever I can.
Bye Wolf
81 • Windows + DIY repo takes time (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-03-19 21:56:48 GMT from United States)
It sure takes time to completely set up any computer system. There's a lot more than just an OS involved. Microsoft may archive old drivers, but for the rest not so much. The more you know about the system, the longer it takes; the less often you do this for a chosen OS, the longer it takes. Sometimes you have to compile from source - if you can get it.
82 • Oh Bob... (by rayyu on 2013-03-20 00:13:54 GMT from Philippines)
There are so many things wrong with the things you say. I'm not even a huge Linux fangirl, but it pains me to see someone so misinformed. Yes, I'm gonna say misinformed because it seems like you think what you're saying is correct.
It's not. I don't even know where to start...you don't know Linux. Honestly...you're a sysadmin, it baffles me when you say things like 'Debian is copying Redhat.' Are you kidding? Back when I was completely new to Linux and still learning the terminology, I still wouldn't have believed that statement.
All of your comments tell me that you show how deep your fundamental lack of understanding is not just for Linux, but for FOSS in general is.
You don't say the things you've said and expect people to NOT call you out on the bullshit that it is. You haven't brought anything worth discussing to the table, because most of it doesn't hold up to reality. Or any of it, actually.
You're not the victim here. Before you whine about how Linux people aren't accepting and friendly, consider the fact that your facts are wrong and you cling to them while insulting everyone else. By implying that because no one agrees with you (absolutely NO ONE), we're all idiots or bullies.
Uh. Might wanna consider that there's a reason no one finds any merit in the claims your making (especially that bit of nonsense about statistics). And it's not because we're Linux zealots.
83 • Debian V. RHEL (by mz on 2013-03-20 01:02:18 GMT from United States)
@79
My understanding is that there are certain kernel releases that are supported for a longer term, so yes distros with similar goals may be likely to run the kernel versions with longer support. Where the coincidence comes in is the fact that they had somewhat similar times when they decided to freeze development. The fact that 3 out of five of the recent releases of RHEL & Debian had different kernels indicates that release timing has a lot to do with what kernel is used as well. They seem to chose whatever long term kernel is ready for them at the time. I don't claim to have some deep knowledge about how kernel versions become long term or why a distro chooses one particular long term kernel, but a coincidence in timing seems to be involved here.
84 • @51 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-03-20 06:12:55 GMT from Canada)
I believe it's not an 'interesting coincidence' but a result of the long-term kernel support effort. Long-term distros, obviously, like to use the long-term support kernels (in fact, the long-term support kernel work is contributed to by the major distros that use it). I expect that if you checked, Ubuntu's last couple of LTS releases use the same kernel releases too.
85 • @60 (by Adam Williamson on 2013-03-20 06:14:48 GMT from Canada)
If you read that interview as 'Debian copies RH's kernel', you completely misread it. Distro maintainers often keep track of what people maintaining the same package in other distros are doing, and maintainers for different distros often actively collaborate. That doesn't mean they're copying each other, exactly, and it doesn't mean each distro's package is identical. All you can take away from that interview is that the Debian kernel team likes to keep track of what RH's kernel is doing, which is hardly surprising.
86 • Linux for Musicians: Slackware (by Josiah on 2013-03-20 06:24:25 GMT from United States)
I am a musician and I use Slackware! Most of the software that is specifically for musicians is not in the official package tree, but community sites such as SlackBuilds.org and SlackerMedia.info are quite useful for getting a computer set up and configured.
To be honest, most of what I need is provided by Lilypond[1], so maybe I'm not the best model for a musician who uses Linux. I also sometimes need fmit (a very nice tuner), Mixxx (DJing software), Audacity, Quod Libet (my usual go-to program for listening to music), and I've been known to use Ardour every now and again. I'm sure there's more. Anyway, none of those come with Slackware, but it's not hard to get them installed.: the hardest is Mixxx, which has a moderately large dependency tree
[1]. Very good music notation software: http://lilypond.org (I like to use the Frescobaldi editor as a frontend).
87 • @74, @82 (by Bob on 2013-03-20 06:42:26 GMT from Germany)
1-Don't try to understand what i say, you can't...
2-Linux is not GNU/Linux, It was just Stallman's claim....
88 • @85 (by Bob on 2013-03-20 06:46:42 GMT from Germany)
"All you can take away from that interview is that the Debian kernel team likes to keep track of what RH's kernel is doing, which is hardly surprising."
Aha, Nice!! It is "enough" for DW forum to find out what goes behind the scene.
89 • @79 (by Bob on 2013-03-20 06:53:34 GMT from Germany)
Read the comment 79 and I am happy that some one at the end understood what is the problem.(Williamson is some one sepcial)
And I am agree with you that 'coincidence' is not happening by chance! Now you can yourself pissing of the Debian guys when you know at least they keep tracking what Redhat did...
90 • @89 Keep your track on the ice (by dbrion on 2013-03-20 08:00:36 GMT from France)
keeping track is not copying (it can be done for adapting, deciding to do other things).
Do distributions keep track of the Linux kernel (maybe not the BSD ones)?
And do they, if they find it useful, submit patches (that would be collaboration, not copying)
And does your beloved Windows radically ignore what the competition does ? Maybe tehy keep track of the Linux kernel, to sell their customers parts of it (or ideas) they find interesting?
91 • 'Bob' (by Dave Postles on 2013-03-20 08:33:49 GMT from United Kingdom)
Don't give him air time - just don't reply to his nonsense.
92 • @90 (by Bob on 2013-03-20 09:42:02 GMT from Germany)
Why you keep sticking to Windows?! Windows X is nowadays more stable than Linux one. Nvidia, ATI and Now Intel drivers sucks on Linux and everybody knows that. You just need to look at Linux forums. And for me it is enough to believe it when Linus Torvalds tells Nvidia "F@@k you".....
Now these problems are on Lenovo(IBM) Thinkpads that somehow are the standard hardwares for Linux.
Can you please answer another comments about their problem after first install with Network manager on OpenSUSE 12.3 and another comment about the problem with panel on the Trisquel Linux after the first update?! Haha no answer for OpenSUSE and someone answered Trisquel is not stable Linux try RHEL!!!!!??
May you please comment about Power Management problems and disabilities and known bugs after several years on all DEs and distros?
You can't answer and when your brains don't understand it starts to denying and answering with "it is trolling", "don't answer him", "use your windows", "kiss my ass", "go get a life", "you have no brains"......
93 • adoptions of the Linux desktop, especially in business (by Michael on 2013-03-20 10:16:45 GMT from Germany)
Here are my two cents - in case anyone is interested.
I tried to use Linux as a business solution, and it worked for some time albeit with some hiccups. I work as a journalist and photographer and while the journalist-stuff was a no brainer, running an enterprise Linux OS, the tricky part was the graphical stuff. Even with a vitualization, software that is essential for my job, like adobe lightroom, EOS ulitity, Canon DPP do not work perfectly. Well you can work with them but it is a nightmare-experience, to be honest, nothing you want to have to deal with day in and day out. What doens't work at all, is the monitor-calibration software and hardware that I have. And I need that.
When I bought a new Laptop as a portable solution, I first thought, okay, let's try Linux on it, too, but then disaster struck. The suspend-mode didn't work, the Monitor could not be calibrated (again) and most special keys of the laptop didn't work. Ugh. Thus both systems run now with Win 7. I hate it, but it let's me do my work (Contrary to Win 8 which I tried and it is a nightmare from a business-usage point of view. Horribly broken, horribly cluttered)
At the newspaper, I use a Mac and lots of stuff works on it - but not everything. It has its quirks and I don't like it either (some things are way too complicated to do in OS X). But as it's not my computer, I have no choice but to use it. *beurk*
Linux was a pretty good alternative for many business-solutions about three, four years ago. Then, KDE 4 and Gnome 3 and all this crap came. Both desktops were a huge step back. The unfixed kernel holes are inexcusable right now.
IF they get a stable (and I mean stable) and pretty compatible DE + Kernel solution out during the next few years, there is a chance, that businesses will explore Linux again. Right now, many don't trust Linux as an alternative - for a reason. Sadly.
94 • @92, 1914,1918,1939,1945,1870,1871, 1515 (by dbrion on 2013-03-20 10:41:45 GMT from France)
Well, if
a) knowing what is going on the Linux kernel,
b) contributing for parts of it,
and
c)maybe (I hope they do, sincerely) adapting good ideas,
is "copying" it, I am very glad Microsoft contributed to the Linux Kernel http://techie-buzz.com/foss/microsoft-linux-3-0.html
and, as there is a very insightful window expert here, further serious and analysis (not whining because he was despised : it is a golden occasion to show one's talents) will be welcome.
Maybe it will change my mind (I bought W7, making Microsoft happy, and us FC16 without any ritual glitch w/r to drivers, Suze(!) networkmanager, other disto bug, other other distro bug) and I ll buy another W7.
95 • as long it gets the job done (by johndoe on 2013-03-20 11:24:23 GMT from United States)
Win7 OEM or remastered, many choice full of driver no need to update. just buy the licence.
Windows 8/Unity turns you back in time to stone age. We must throw our mouse to dust bin. No not for me. Where's my start button? I dunno install third party application. Must install new driver for Windows 8, and do another update. Just plain and dull Metro.
Hackintosh? Why it's so hard to install on my FX4 rig?
Blackbox for Windows, KDE and Openbox environment works for me. Snort and Metaploit was there for me. The only thing missing in Windows was Portsentry. Tripple boot Win 7, Debian and FreeBSD.
Kali was amazing, using Backtrack when it was still base on Slackware. Drop it after it use Ubuntu as base. Happy to know Kali was base on Debian. Maybe I'll replace Debian with Kali.
96 • 93 (by mandog on 2013-03-20 11:56:11 GMT from Peru)
I'm also a photographer and use Linux, when I did the masters degree I learned how to use available light correctly. My Nikon connects without a hitch as does my Lumix. I don't use any sort of touch-up that is fake photography.
97 • whatever Bob. (by rayyu on 2013-03-20 12:25:58 GMT from Philippines)
I have come across none of the problems and grievances he's mentioned. My Windows 7 install, on the other hand, gives me a lot of grief. Doesn't mean I go around whining about it on Microsoft/Windows websites. It works wonderfully for some people, it sucks for me. I don't have much against Windows 7, but Linux, on the other hand, is wonderfully low-maintenance and fast for me.
He seems to think that anyone who disagrees is bullying him. People who victimize themselves so much are annoying. No matter what anyone says, he's going to cling to the same ideas.
"You can't answer and when your brains don't understand it starts to denying and answering with "it is trolling", "don't answer him", "use your windows", "kiss my ass", "go get a life", "you have no brains"......"
He also seems to think that because no one cares about answering what can already be answered by using a search engine, nobody understands him. When really that sort of thing should be put to forums, and not haughtily demanded in the comments section of distrowatch.
Idk. Guess he's enjoying this strawman argument where he points out flaws in Linux as though a lot of people don't know them already? Kinda makes me cringe every time I see him comment, 'cause it gets less coherent each time. Though that might be because he doesn't speak fluent English. Then again, I don't care about the grammar if the content is coherent, which it mostly isn't.
Of course he's just going to claim that no one understands, but the sad thing is that every reply to him shows that he's been understood well enough. He just can't accept that a lot of what he says is based on faulty logic and misinformation.
(Hell, I don't think he's a troll. I just think his statements are wrong and so are the "facts" that he thinks backs them up. Therefore I don't mind calling out his nonsense as long as he keeps spewing it.)
98 • What Has Happened? (by tdockery97 on 2013-03-20 12:27:35 GMT from United States)
What has happened to DistroWatch? It used to be a pleasant forum for interesting information on new and existing distros. Now it seems to be a forum for trolling, venting anger, and fighting between Windows and Linux users. Apparently this is OK with the Admins here.
Regretfully, I think it may be time to seek out alternate sources of information on what's new in linux.
99 • driver support - it's the hardware vendors (by Somewhat Reticent on 2013-03-20 16:27:51 GMT from United States)
"... no other OS has to do the tremendous effort of trying to support every single device on Earth. MS does not need to do it because hardware producers do it for them. No hardware manufacturer would release a device without releasing drivers compatible and well tested with all major versions of Windows."[43]
MS frequently takes up driver maintenance after these same hw makers drop support, and keeps it up through OS upgrades. The API is published, but many hw oems buy into proprietary business models that hate standards.
Practically speaking, most Linux distros support what they think is common. No OS supports every device.
100 • @93 photography (by AliAsmarLowe on 2013-03-20 16:37:04 GMT from Finland)
I also (like @96) use Linux exclusively, employ it in conjunction with photography, and have done so for years. We have several DSLRs and a considerable number of lenses. To get the job done, you need the tools to automate your work-flow, and this is an area where commercial tools are required. I use Bibble Pro (now Corel Aftershot Pro) and Noise Ninja Pro in Linux. They get the job done just as easily and just as well as any tools for other OSs, including Adobe Light Room.
101 • @87 @91 (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-20 17:01:43 GMT from United States)
"1-Don't try to understand what i say, you can't..."
Sure, I've wasted precious time with you.
"2-Linux is not GNU/Linux, It was just Stallman's claim...."
Linux is a kernel. GNU/Linux is a collection of software: kernel + user space utilities.
"Don't give him air time - just don't reply to his nonsense."
This was my last reply directed to him. I promise!
102 • Debian V. RHEL (by mz on 2013-03-20 19:13:53 GMT from United States)
Unless one or both projects are explicitly choosing the exact same long term kernel as the other, then running the same kernel is a coincidence in release timing. I think 2 of 5 being the same indicates that they haven't been choosing the same exact kernel version up till now. Also please note the 'doesn't mean anything' was with regard to one project being totally derivative of another. Of course both projects are heavily derived from the same work sent up stream to the kernel, but there are lots of differences underneath.
103 • DW this week (by Bill on 2013-03-20 19:59:04 GMT from United States)
It sure has been interesting following the comments here this week. If I was brand new here, I would come away with the feeling that this is why we have chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla so that we all have choices. Strange how one person cannot get what they need with Windows7 and the next works well with it, while on the other hand, one person swears by Linux, and the other person can't get what they need. Yet, through all I guess it's the individual and not the OS.
I have about 8 Linux versions I play with and I keep Windows 7 for one purpose only, no matter which kernel, it has never liked my optical cdrom and the only way I can print with my lightscribe labels is with Windows. Other than that, ever since Hardy was introduced, I am in love with my Linux systems. Laptop, desktop, kids computers all have Linux.
I did notice something strange though. With windows, as soon as it boots up, the fan starts to blow in my computer whereas in Linux it is very quite no fan UNTIL I install Nvidia drivers then wham! Fan starts blowing to cool off the card. Something is very wrong with Nvidia.
I am happy again to report that Linux got that right with the latest Nouveu drivers. If I want my hardware to last longer, Linux is the way to go.
Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but I go by my experience and thanks to DW, I have found a home with Mint MATE. It just works for me.
Take care everyone around this world and don't take yourself to seriously. ;-)
Bill
104 • Trisquel (by Dave Postles on 2013-03-20 21:12:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry to hear that someone had difficulty with an upgrade. I've been with it from the start on my desktop PC and have never encountered a problem. I'm now using 64-bit 6.0 and have encountered no problems whatsoever. Unlike some other distros, it also has clamtk, not just clamav, in the repo, which I always like. I've never had to fiddle with anything - it just finds everything (although I don't use it for WiFi, just eth0 with a powerplug system). I also use Springdale (ex-PUIAS) on a notebook. I find that reassuringly stable, based on RHEL, but it does require more configuration.
105 • LPS Linux has an updated version (by Jan on 2013-03-20 23:16:16 GMT from Netherlands)
There is now an update of LPS Linux, 1.4.0 (a secured bootable CD/USB).
So the project is still alive (the last update was sept. 2012, so long time no security updates).
Has anybody already a test experience?
106 • RE: 105 LPS Linux has an updated version (by ladislav on 2013-03-20 23:23:06 GMT from Taiwan)
I cannot access the LPS website from where I am and I remember seeing comments from other users saying the same. It seems that the projects blocks some countries (maybe even all countries outside of the USA) from accessing their website and downloading the product. As such, I've updated their page on DW, but I decided not to publish the news on the front page.
Anybody else has a problem accessing http://www.spi.dod.mil/lipose.htm?
107 • @ 106 (by mandog on 2013-03-20 23:37:58 GMT from Peru)
Works fine in Peru
108 • @106 : LPS (by Woodstock69 on 2013-03-21 03:39:03 GMT from Australia)
No problems accessing LPS site or download links from here.
109 • @108 (by Woodstock69 on 2013-03-21 03:41:38 GMT from Australia)
Location should read "from Papua New Guinea". We must have re-routed our servers again......
110 • Windows xp/7 isn't so bad.. i mean really.... (by brad on 2013-03-21 12:00:56 GMT from United States)
With so many "linux" using people on these threads, and browsing distrowatch in general.. and with linux being so "elite" compared to windows.. How come I see more linux users claiming problems with windows 7 and the scope of the problems even MORE SO , than windows 7 users on other forums, help sites?
I mean if you can use linux surely you can figure out/make/run windows 7 right?
I've used win 7 since it came out, NEVER had a problem, NEVER had a virus, or even a BSOD.. I've used linux and some basic updates break the system or make you have to use a live cd/dvd just to get online to read the forums of "OTHERS" with the same problem so you can find how to "fix it" to make your system useable..
I mean do many on here "REALLY" have the problems with windows? or is just cliche' for Linux users to complain about the problems they "hear" and "read" so many others have just to sound "better" than windows users?
things that make you go hmmmmmmm....
111 • As advocates of a 1% minority @62 (by gregzeng on 2013-03-21 12:06:25 GMT from Australia)
@62 above cites a url from 3 years ago, before Android started replacing Windows.
Is Android a Linux distro that should be included in DW also - since I recommend many times that the schoolies might choose an Android PC ??
If we allow Android into DW, it would be interesting to allow the increasing use of readers, users, comments, etc into DW as well.
@98 "What has happened to DistroWatch?" - sounds like a noob on the Internet.
As a site gains popularity, it must adjust to the increased fame by add-on features, including the full possibilities of multiple forums. Most (but not all) web site managers have the skill to handle more fame & popularity. Hopefully, DW's managers can handle Linux's growing relevance to this planet, in these coming times. My interest is if DW ever expands to more than English-speaking interests, by including the language-translation tools of the more professional web-sites.
112 • @110 Windows not so bad (by DavidEF on 2013-03-21 12:22:40 GMT from United States)
I used Windows XP for years at home before replacing it with Ubuntu, the first linux distro I could get installed on my desktop, after trying a few others. I still use Windows XP daily at work. I use Ubuntu on all of my computers at home. Windows is no longer in use at my house. Windows XP is in a bad state. But, when I first started using it, that wasn't so. Maybe planned obsolescence? My laptop came with Vista. I gave it a fair shot, but it had to go! Yikes! I've also used Windows 7 extensively, and I like it. I've not had too many problems with it, although some. Installing is still a huge time waster, as are AV and malware tools, and Windows Update. Can't they figure out how to make their updates download and install in one shot, and at a reasonable speed? Otherwise, Windows 7 probably is the best Windows OS I've used, and the list includes all of them from Win95 and up, except the new Windows 8. Having said all that, I find linux to be more suitable for everyday usage than Windows. YMMV, of course.
113 • @110,112 -I've helped many with windows issues.. (by Brad on 2013-03-21 12:34:16 GMT from United States)
I use teamviewer on Arch linux and I've helped many friends and acquaintances with windows issues, browser hijacks, show & tell for some "good internet practices" etc..
and these people are mild to somewhat computer illiterate.. .and they haven't had the problems I've read on DW comments that many have on here with windows..
and I just feel if you are a linux user, not only are your skills more polished.. but you, as a linux user, can think outside the box when dealing with problems..
My only experience w/win8 is in a store.. I dont personally like the UI.. but i'm sure under the hood , it's a nice OS in general..
114 • @112 (by Sam Graf on 2013-03-21 13:20:58 GMT from United States)
"Windows XP is in a bad state. But, when I first started using it, that wasn't so. Maybe planned obsolescence?"
Well, yes. XP's long known EOL is right around the corner. It's sharing the eventual fate of pretty much all non-rolling OS releases.
"My laptop came with Vista. I gave it a fair shot, but it had to go! Yikes!"
Here we have a classic case of YMMV. I have never encountered the show-stopping problems _many_ Vista users reported (even Windows-only users hated it!). And that's across a dozen or so different machines. I don't why, I just haven't. So the whole "It works for me/It doesn't work for me" thing must be dependent to some degree on environmental factors (including user expectations), not just on the OS under discussion. It's sometimes interesting to read about good and bad experiences with fill-in-the-blank OS, but it all proves nothing, necessarily, about the OS itself. Anecdotal evidence is not all that robust to start with, and it's even less robust in fan-versus-fan contexts (like we have here), I think. It's just a respin of the (unproductive) epic clashes between Commodore/Amiga and Atari fans. Been there, done that. A _lot_ of heat, a lot less light.
Anyway, the only version of Windows I came to truly hate was Me. Good grief, what a mess that seemed to be!
115 • Planned obsolescence (by DavidEF on 2013-03-21 16:02:29 GMT from United States)
from Wikipedia article:
"Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor which might also rely on planned obsolescence.[1]"
When XP first came out, it could be installed in a Pentium III class computer, with 128MB of RAM, and it worked okay. Now, after years of updates, and three Service Packs, it is bloated and slow, requiring several Gigs of HDD space, and a Gig or two of RAM, and AT LEAST a later model Pentium 4 or better processor, just to be barely useful. Being old doesn't have to mean being useless, but manufacturers and vendors make it so on purpose, so you have to buy a shiny new toy every few years.
116 • @110 (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-21 16:08:59 GMT from United States)
Most Linux users are actually Windows refugees. The most stable Windows (XP) was still very unstable for me, and I had a lot of overheating issues, so I decided to wipe Windows XP, that came pre-installed on my laptop, and install SimplyMEPIS on it, many years ago. The overheating problem never happened again on MEPIS. I received a free Ubuntu media by mail and on the first day I had the overheating problem. I was very happy with MEPIS, though.
Some years later I bought a laptop with Windows Vista and gave it a try. After a few hours I decided it was a waste o CPU, RAM, besides being very closed (you can't really change things to be the way you want, and I became used to it after using Linux for some years).
I'm not really one of those "Linux advocates". I'm just answering your question. I don't believe people should use Linux if they are happy on whatever OS they use. I was not happy on Windows, and don't want to go back.
About being "elite", well, it is just as I said. If you think you should be in control of everything running on your machine, then we could call GNU/Linux an elite OS. Otherwise call elite the one that makes you happy, and most important of all, the one that makes you more productive.
It is actually also very unusual to see Linux users complaining about Windows, but the debate has been sparked from comment @1. I actually hate talking about Windows, I got mad this time :) This is the first time I talked about it online in about 5 years or so. We Linux users enjoy talking about new distros, specially if it brings something innovative, or about new software for Linux. I also love talking about the features of the UNIX shell, since it really makes me more productive.
117 • KolibriOS (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-21 16:17:20 GMT from United States)
Has anyone seen the KolibriOS banner at the top of this page? A 2MB LiveCD with graphical interface! I just saw it for the first, never heard about it before, see: http://kolibrios.org/
I'll test it when I have more spare time. PS: It is not Linux, but it is realeased under the GPLv2.
118 • @115 (by Sam graf on 2013-03-21 16:55:12 GMT from United States)
Of course. There are almost certainly multiple reasons why XP has accumulated bulk, but even it could be proved that Microsoft has inentionally compromised XP's performance, I don't see the significance.
I cannot think of a good reason to run an OS past EOL regardless of the condition it has maintained over its lifetime. Even if the factory and current versions of XP for my six year old Gateway 310 were identical in terms of performance, EOL renders all that moot, it seems to me. When Microsoft ends support, XP is orphaned. Nothing will change that.
And this is true even where there are no financial incentives to an OS vendor. Open source OSs acknowledge the trade-offs between long life and feature growth or improvement. At the end of the day, many FOSS OSs have published EOL policies, just like Microsoft.
So while I certainly understand planned obsolescence and related concepts (having been in manufacturing in the past), my point is simply that XP's current state strikes me as being at least in part the result of heavily patching an OS for more than a decade. It will have earned EOL status after being maintained longer than some of its Linux-based alternatives, it seems to me. It has served us well and has no obligation to serve us indefinitely. Besides, all that surplus XP-era hardware becomes the "shiny new toy" for us Linux enthusiasts, does it not? :)
119 • Fedora 18 (by pfb on 2013-03-21 17:57:58 GMT from United States)
Last week I noted a problem with USB drives during boot. I said it might be fixed by F19, but they fixed it yesterday. Cool!
120 • @118 Right, you are! (by DavidEF on 2013-03-21 18:57:14 GMT from United States)
"...my point is simply that XP's current state strikes me as being at least in part the result of heavily patching an OS for more than a decade."
Yes, you are right, of course. Also, you're right that it really isn't significant to most people. My point was just that we don't see those kind of maneuvers much in FOSS. Our hardware and software are allowed to lose relevance at a more natural pace. Thusly: ""...all that surplus XP-era hardware becomes the "shiny new toy" for us Linux enthusiasts"" There is the fact that some people find their hardware and/or software to still be quite useful long after the EOL, which, I suspect, is the reason for such engineering marvels as "planned obsolescence" to exist!
Maybe that's also a reason that some linux users complain more about Windows than Windows users, if it is in fact true that we do. We expect our software to be useful to us until WE decide for ourselves that it isn't. We don't want some company to intentionally cripple or corrupt our system for us in order to encourage us to buy their newest masterpiece! Oh, here I go complaining again! Sorry, as I said above, I still get the privilege of using Windows XP at work. Grumble, grumble, mumble, mumble!
121 • Planned obsolescense - short-term view for hw makers (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2013-03-21 19:01:25 GMT from United States)
I suggest planned obsolescence is more popular with hardware manufacturers than it is with Microsoft, and that in turn deserves more of the blame for many aggravations blamed both on Windows and on "failed" Linux attempts.
(KolibriOS - text-only browser, right?)
122 • KolibriOS (by DavidEF on 2013-03-21 19:11:35 GMT from United States)
@117 Teresa e Junior, I just hopped over to their website. It appears they are still in very early stages. But, I think it will be very interesting to watch. Some people with light requirements may find it useful already.
123 • LPS (by Dave Postles on 2013-03-21 19:26:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's accessible from the UK:
http://spi.dod.mil/lipose.htm
124 • @121 @122 (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-21 20:26:48 GMT from United States)
@FossilizingDinosaur http://kolibrios.org/en/screen.htm
@DavidEF "KolibriOS has forked off from MenuetOS in 2004, and is run under independent development since then." But I have no idea of the size of their team, and how often new releases come out.
MenuetOS is also under active development: http://menuetos.net/ Maybe I'll try them both tonight on VirtualBox.
I also tried HaikuOS (BeOS compatible) the other day and was impressed by their Desktop Environment. It has even processes list on the menu! It'd be nice if it was ported to Linux! https://www.haiku-os.org/
125 • GoboLinux Lives! (Maybe) (by Charles Wilson on 2013-03-22 00:38:58 GMT from United States)
Just got an E-Mail from Zoltan concerning GoboLinux.
Gobo is an alternative File System Linux that...well go check out the site.
It has been dormant for awhile until this E-Mail. Maybe interest (and Help!) will pick up again. Hope So!
CW
126 • re #59 opensuse gnome live dvd and #98 tone of forum here (by gnomic on 2013-03-22 05:12:34 GMT from New Zealand)
re #98 "What has happened to Distrowatch?" As a regular reader it seems to me that this week's outbreak of overly vigorous dispute is an exception to the rule over the last year or so. So in the main DIstrowatch is doing OK. Someone who comes here to announce that Linux sucks while Windows and OS X are cool is probably looking for a fight.
re #59 about my problems with the recent openSUSE 12.3 live DVD, nobody has yet said it worked well in their testing. Does this mean that nobody uses SUSE with Gnome, or nobody tried the live disc, or nobody with a connection to the distro noticed my sad plight?
127 • Stealing from each other vs. open source (by sol on 2013-03-22 08:13:26 GMT from Hungary)
I think that Distrowatch's new distribution time limit must be larger, because AlphaOS is too young to accept as active distro, the project availability is unpredictable, just like Archpup from the same author, Archpup is closed now due some 'stealing' issue.
128 • @ #125, #126 (by Pierre on 2013-03-22 08:29:41 GMT from Germany)
[@ #125]
Wow, GoboLinux got mention here... it's now half a decade that a new release was pushed and even more years that I last checked it out or even tried it out.
Back so many years ago I really liked that idea and ran that distro some time and liked it. I don't think it could make me leave my beloved openSUSE behind, but I'd check it out if a new release were published.
So, thanks for the interesting news! :)
[@ #126]
Sorry, seems I missed your comment.
I am happily using openSUSE 12.3 since the day it was released. But I simply installed it via Install DVD replacing my openSUSE 12.2 install. So I cannot say if the problem with your Gnome-based live DVD only does concern yourself or even more people. At least I did not hear or read anything about such a problem.
I just can report that with my Install DVD I only had a few smaller issues, so nothing worth complaining about. The installed openSUSE 12.3 itself runs like a charm and rock solid. With my custom install and setup of i3 window manager it even better adopts settings that were done in KDE to my window manager what I appreciate a lot.
I do not really like Gnome 3 so I cannot say anything about the Gnome 3 experience.
At least Xfce4 runs on a virtual machine very nicely. Even KDE4 runs fast and stable in a virtual machine.
So for me the openSUSE 12.3 release is even better than the rock solid previous one because it does not only run stable but even looks a lot better. :)
So keeping that in mind I am even more sorry for you that you have such hassles with it. Maybe you should download the KDE4 version of the live DVD or any other image and try that one out. This way we could at least get to know if it's Gnome related or generally something that has to do with the system itself.
Greetings from Germany!
Pierre
129 • @59 openSUSE (by Mac on 2013-03-22 11:55:32 GMT from United States)
I have been using suse 12.3 kde since it release and works great for me. But you have to turn on NM which is easy to do. Have not tried gnome. I am an old debian user and know very little about rpm and it is nice to have a rpm distro to poke around in. Have fun Mack
130 • KDE, Designed Obsolescence. IE, Mozilla (by gregzeng on 2013-03-22 12:21:42 GMT from Australia)
Many engineering illiterates in the Linux arena now:
Every designed hardware (biological, metal, silicon, etc) or software (codes, memes, data, etc) has inbuilt obsolescence. Bobhi's 'buntu-derived distro is derived from Ubuntu 10.04, which faces planned obsolescence before the end of this year. Same as every other engineer designed product, including my own biological body in my final stage of my life now (hospice).
KDE has many 'babies now. My favorite browser Opera is moving to the KDE-inspired code now - Webkit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_(web_browser)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit
- following Apple, IOS, Android, Amazon, Blackberry & Nokia. Opera maybe bringing with it: Adobe, Nintendo, Wii, Bada, Maemo, FreeBSD & Windows Mobile.
Left with the dinosaurs are Internet explorer (Trident) and Mozilla (Gecko), atm.
131 • Fight another day (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-22 13:08:12 GMT from United States)
"Left with the dinosaurs are Internet explorer (Trident) and Mozilla (Gecko), atm."
Looking for another fight, eh ;)
132 • @130 - 131 (by DavidEF on 2013-03-22 14:20:58 GMT from United States)
Teresa e Junior,
gregzeng does appear to be looking for a fight. Maybe it's Bob under a different name, or one of Bob's friends.
gregzeng, I don't think you understand what "planned" means. Just because things become obsolete over time, does not mean they fall under the category of "planned obsolescence". Sorry I didn't link the Wikipedia article I quoted last time. Then again, if you only read the snippet I gave, you'd see your error.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
There ya go.
133 • @130 (by Ray on 2013-03-22 15:37:32 GMT from United States)
"Bobhi's 'buntu-derived distro is derived from Ubuntu 10.04"
Um, no, Bodhi 2.x.x. is based off of Ubuntu 12.04 lts. Bodhi bases its distro strictly off of Ubuntu's LTS releases - Direct quote from the website -
"Bodhi Linux is a "semi-rolling" release. This means that we follow the Ubuntu LTS release cycle for the core of our distribution, but in between these major release we backport software to our users so all of their software stays current. This means to stay with the latest release of Bodhi you only need to reinstall your system every two years, while still having current versions of your favorite applications. Bodhi releases are supported/get security updates for as long as the LTS base is supported by Ubuntu, which is five years."
134 • @59 opensuse nm (by walter_j on 2013-03-22 17:42:55 GMT from Canada)
Opensuse has the firewall turned on by default too. One of these days I'll figure out firewalls. Until then, I turn it off.
I also entered:
ifconfig wlan0
and the wifi started working.
135 • @120 (by Sam Graf on 2013-03-22 21:12:11 GMT from United States)
"My point was just that we don't see those kind of maneuvers much in FOSS. Our hardware and software are allowed to lose relevance at a more natural pace."
I'm not sure what you mean by "FOSS ... hardware," and in the case of a FOSS OS, I'm not sure what you mean by a "natural pace." I get that for applications (but notice even there that people are vocally critical of Debian, for example, because it is generally "behind" when it comes to applications), but not as a general statement about FOSS OSs.
As I mentioned, FOSS OSs can (and generally do unless it's a rolling release) have published EOLs just like Microsoft's OSs. People can run an OS past EOL (makes no difference if it's XP or Debian/Ubuntu/etc.; XP doesn't stop working past EOL), but the impact of EOL on a FOSS OS and on XP is for all practical purposes the same. When a FOSS OS moves past EOL, it's no less an orphan than XP (UNLESS, of course, if someone resurrects it, say in a specialty distribution or something, but I'm not talking about what amount to special cases).
So EOL is not a natural thing at all, it seems to me. If I want to honor EOLs I can't run Debian 6 indefinitely (say, because I don't want Debian 7) any more than I can run XP indefinitely.
In any case, "Designed for Windows ___" hardware can outlive the OS it was designed for, sure. But something similar is true for at least some popular FOSS OS alternatives--I have completely given up trying to install a current version of Ubuntu on hardware _it_ clearly wasn't designed for. And I have an olde desktop computer that runs fine every day under Debian 6 but does not (yet) boot under Debian Wheezy. And if that remains the case (which seems likely), then what? Distro hopping or hardware recycling--neither necessarily a natural EOL for my olde computer. :)
All for what it's worth ...
136 • KolibriOS (by Yogev Ezra on 2013-03-23 10:11:42 GMT from Israel)
I would like to thank all commenters for their kind words! Indeed KolibriOS still has a long journey to make to become fully-functional OS, but we are working hard to make this happen. Our team consists from around 20 active contributors, and we plan to roll out a major release within 1 month from now.
Adding KolibriOS on DistroWatch was a big step in promoting our project to the open-source community, and I am very happy that this day has finally arrived.
You are welcome to post your comments and ask your questions in our forums and in our Facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/kolibrios/
http://board.kolibrios.org/
Best regards,
Yogev Ezra
KolibriOS Public Relations Coordinator
137 • KolibriOS small review (by Teresa e Junior on 2013-03-23 16:39:57 GMT from United States)
I went ahead and downloaded the KolibriOS nightly LiveCD. It is a 2.82MB 7z file, which decompressed gave me a 4.7MB ISO image. I set a new virtual machine on Oracle VirtualBox without a hard drive and set it to boot from ISO.
The machine booted instantly, even much faster than TinyCore. After that, I thought I'd find just a little window manager with a shell and some graphical configuration tools, but to my surprise I had:
Three file managers: a graphical one that resembles PCManFM or the E17 file manager, the second is a more advanced one with dual panes that reminds me a lot of Gentoo, and the third one is similar to the Midnight Commander and looks a lot like it.
The window manager is simple, yet beautiful and pleasant. It contains a keyboard switcher, a button to hide the panel like IceWM, a CPU load bar (click to open a task manager), and a clock (click it to open a calendar). You can configure the WM with graphical tools available under Menu > System > Settings.
There are two text editors, one advanced in a ncurses style, and the other one graphical with nice features such as tabs and diff view on the left side in the same style as Kate. Even Geany hasn't this feature :) You'll find also a simple table processor and a calculator.
Under Graphics you have an image viewer, a colorscheme designer, and even an image editor and a tool to apply effects or filters to images.
There a lot of games (over 30) and demos that show how 3D works on the system (and they worked well for me).
There is a CD Player which can't be tested on VirtualBox, since the virtual CD drive already had the LiveCD, and a MIDI player.
It is a bit hard to measure real RAM usage from inside VBox, since VBox itself has a high RAM usage, but according to their website, the system uses as low as 8MB of RAM.
The ethernet card was detected and I could read some news in a simple web browser available under Menu > Network > Clients. In the same menu you'll find clients for FTP, Telnet, IRC, Newsgroups, Yahoo Messenger, VNC, POP Mail, and more.
Servers for SMTP, FTP, and HTTP also come installed under Menu > Network > Servers! There are also some development tools under Menu > Development. There is a command line shell simply called "Shell". It simple and easy to use, but doesn't accept a bash like syntax.
Under Menu > Accessibility there is a screen magnifier, a screen keyboard, and a character map.
Under the menus there are actually many graphical configuration tools that you would not expect to find on such a small system and even more applications that I had not the time to test!
138 • openSUSE (by Ika on 2013-03-23 18:15:45 GMT from Spain)
I never liked openSUSE. I’m not talking about the look; it’s quite cool. But this is one of the less important issue since all can be customized.
Well, I decided to give it another try. The full 4.7 GB DVD...
...And encountered the same things that always made me to quick remove it:
1. Wifi connection. It took me a while to get it work. And it isn’t working properly: it shows like it is a bad net connection - THOUGH IT IS FULL !!! - and the connection key shows the red light, though it is pressed as connected!!!
2. Package management: too complicated. Why aren’t able (or willing) the developers to create a unified one?
OTOH, is incredible a so “great” distro lacks some essential and very used programs like Skype or VLC!?!? Someone will say “It can be installed from...”. It’s a bullshit! Why not out-of-the-box? More: these are not in the repos!!!
3. Not detected a free/unallocated space. I have a 100 GB free space in my HDD but the installer did not detect it. So I had to install openSUSE in the partitions where I had another distro. But had to be aware not deleting these partitions because once deleted there were unreadable!!! So I mounted these existing partitions as required (/ and /home and using the already existing swap).
Above all these, I dont like the idea of the superuser. Why not the custom setting root+psw followed by user+psw (optional or not)?
Overall, excepting a couple of pop-uped windows notifying about a KDE bug, the system seems to work quite smooth and fast.
But I’n sure if keeping it or not. Maybe not...
139 • openSUSE (by Ika on 2013-03-23 18:20:58 GMT from Spain)
Correction:
"But I'm notsure ifkeeping..." (wireless keyboard batteries... :D )
140 • @ 138 openSUSE (by Mac on 2013-03-23 20:27:00 GMT from United States)
Not a suse fanboy but been in linux for several years and never had one my way out of the box. And it did find my blank partition and did not over write the mbr and nm handles wireless just fine for me. 12.3 works for me better than most. But kubuntu, mepis and aptosid are my main distro. But suse now lets gives me a chance to learn rpm. Aptosid has to have a cheat code to install but no biggie it is on the web sight. Have fun Mack
141 • @59 & 126 (from gnomic) (by Barnabyh on 2013-03-24 21:54:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi gnomic, I had a similar experience. All live images, I tried several for 32-bit as for x64 (both with Gnome Shell, believe it or not) and incl. the Rescue disk, ran well in VMware Player.
Once burned to DVD I was unable to get to a working desktop in live mode and scrapped them again. As always with Suse, a real shame, it always looks promising and seemed to have particularly nice features and look this time. For once I liked the blend of their implementation of Gnome Shell with their system tools, but back to reliable old Openbox.
142 • @130 • KDE, Designed Obsolescence. IE, Mozilla (by gregzeng on 2013-03-25 04:28:59 GMT from Australia)
My bad on Bodhi, which is one of my several multi-boots. But every meme (biology, software & hardware) in the 'advance, developed' world (Eu, Au, Nth-Americas, etc) since about 1975, has had university-graduates socially engineer every product produced and managed - 'family planning'.
As a baby-boomer, my memetic foundation is an 'act-of-god', but senior admins nurture every product: overheads, sub & super-structures. Juniors by design & maturity are not aware of these costs & designs. In 'politics', we have token reps (brand-name pollies, like Fedora, Ubuntu), but the real stuff is done by informed coders (Redhat, Debian).
In my areas of specialization (social engineering), the other 'engineers' are skeptical, suspicious & hating innovations. D-w, its readers, writers and ecosystems - are part of the new social engineering environments that the real social engineers must design the sub super-structures around. Old-timers have traditional meaning (eg Wikipedia). Innovators & do-ers are too busy to teach Wikipedia, etc. But sometimes 'news' items do get into the Wikis, as I originally url'd.
143 • Issue #500 (by Jaack on 2013-03-25 04:57:51 GMT from United States)
I'm looking forward to #500 due 3/25/13. Hope something SPECTACULAR is present!
Been reading distrowatch.com/weekly for quite some time and weeks have flown by. Congratulations to all who made this possible, week after week! kudos.
144 • re #141 SUSE 12.3 live DVD no desktop (by gnomic on 2013-03-25 05:34:10 GMT from New Zealand)
Hi, thanks for sharing results of your testing, thought I must be going barmy but as you saw it too, maybe not . . . ;-) Must say this seems very odd, and I would not have expected it from this distro which is after all in origin one of the oldest. Perhaps I should get around to trying it in a VM. Definitely not a good advertisement for Linux.
Number of Comments: 144
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Linux Bootable Business Card (LNX-BBC)
The LNX-BBC was a miniature Linux-based GNU distribution, small enough to fit on a CD-ROM that has been cut, pressed, or molded to the size and shape of a business card. In 1999 Duncan MacKinnon, Tom Crimi, and Seth David Schoen started work on the project at Linuxcare. Linuxcare printed 10,000 copies of the "Linuxcare Bootable Business Card" to be distributed at the then-upcoming LinuxWorld Conference and Expo. The give-away mini CD-ROMs were a huge success and have generated steady praise and thanks for their rescue capabilities, attracting many other developers to the project. The BBC went through seven versions, five of which were pressed into business-card sized CD-ROMs and handed out at trade shows or distributed by mail to Linux User Groups around the world.
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