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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Secure Boot (by tdockery97 on 2012-11-26 09:38:09 GMT from United States)
Just ran into the same situation this weekend myself, Jesse. I got a new HP 2000 laptop, and of course with Linux on my mind I didn't even think about the fact that it would have Windows 8 and secure boot. After first spending a few minutes with the horror that it Windows 8, I also dove into the BIOS settings figuring out how to boot my Mint 14 live DVD. Then of course was the adventure of the install and resetting BIOS settings for legacy booting.
I agree that someone very new to Linux trying to get set up on one of these newer machines is going to have a much tougher time than we did getting started.
2 • What about the certified keys (by hayate on 2012-11-26 10:40:06 GMT from Greece)
If you have to disable secure boot just to choose an alternate boot media, then what was the point for the Linux Foundation and companies like Canonical, Red Hat etc. buying certified keys?
3 • ms tax (by vampire_janus on 2012-11-26 10:44:36 GMT from Philippines)
I don't know about Jesse or the first commenter but when I buy a new laptop (I don't buy desktop anymore)- I always make sure that it does not come with any ms os in it.
4 • Secure Boot (by Kc1di on 2012-11-26 10:52:32 GMT from United States)
Re comment by hayate:
What about Certified keys :
I'm not sure what the Fedora and Ubuntu status is but as far as I know Mint hasn't done anything yet and the Linux Foundation's plans have hit roadblock as described in this article:
http://www.zdnet.com/linux-foundation-uefi-secure-boot-key-for-windows-8-pcs-delays-explained-7000007841/
5 • Got to disagree #3 (by Scott on 2012-11-26 11:09:22 GMT from United States)
@3. I partially agree with you. If I can get MS with my computer with, I'll take it. It may not be the best OS in the world, but there are still applications that I need that Linux doesn't offer yet. Wine can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, and I prefer not to bridge the gap there. As for your preference of Laptop, that isn't always a good idea. Laptops have a lower life span. If I am going to buy a 3K$ machine, its going to be a desktop with many years on it versus a laptop that can easily be stolen or broken.
6 • NAS4Free (by mkruger on 2012-11-26 11:15:16 GMT from United States)
This project looks to be a fork of the version 7.x branch of FreeNAS.
7 • The steps (by Simone on 2012-11-26 11:33:33 GMT from Spain)
@1. Did you go through the same steps like Jesse? I mean
"Boot machine while pressing F10
Find Secure Boot in the menu tree, ignore warnings
Disable Secure Boot feature
Enable legacy boot options
Enable specific legacy devices, such as USB devices
Save and reboot while holding down F9 "
Would be useful if someone shares information about other brands.
8 • @3 and v5 (by greg on 2012-11-26 11:56:12 GMT from Slovenia)
@3 - not everywhere a laptop is availbale with no windows on. and even if they are they are not always with same hardware specs and capability (i.e. hybrid graphics, stronger CPU etc)
@5 if person 3 is indeed from Philipines , having a notebook there is probably safer. power outages are common in that part of the world.additionally you have heavy, big laptops (like the new System76 mashcine) that is like a desktop only you can easilly move it arround to another location.
9 • secure boot (by hayden on 2012-11-26 12:55:23 GMT from United States)
Because MS demands this it may become standard on ALL new hardware except stuff made especially for Linux so that even if you buy a new Brand X computer without Windows it may still have Secure Boot in the hardware. Fortunately eBay has tons of desktops without this "feature".
10 • Secure Boot and Restraint of Trade law (by Schützenberger on 2012-11-26 13:03:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
Have any of the major Linux vendors indicated their intention to bring a restraint-of-trade suit against Microsoft over this, rather than just accepting it as a fait accompli? And if not, why not?
11 • Secure Boot (by TobiSGD on 2012-11-26 13:21:15 GMT from Germany)
Not all this FUD again.
1. Secure Boot is a specification released by the UEFI forum, not by Microsoft. Have a look who is in there and then ask yourself why Microsoft is the only one you blame for Secure Boot, but not AMD, Intel or IBM. Double-standard or just uninformed ranting?
2. Microsoft has made sure that any x86 hardware that comes with the Windows 8 logo must have the option to a) disable Secure Boot, and b) add your own custom keys. This is the reason why there will no antitrust case again.
3. Once the linux foundation has their bootloader signed all this should become a non-issue.
Get over it.
12 • With or without OS (by Jesse on 2012-11-26 13:29:43 GMT from Canada)
>> "I don't know about Jesse or the first commenter but when I buy a new laptop (I don't buy desktop anymore)- I always make sure that it does not come with any ms os in it."
I used to do that and I would still like to. However, recently I've been finding it harder to find machines without a pre-installed OS and the few places which sell them around here cost quite a bit more. From a cost perspective I find it cheaper to get the pre-infected machine and wipe it.
13 • Gnome shell classic mode (by silent on 2012-11-26 13:31:50 GMT from Europe)
Further to the discussion in DW Issue 482 about the decision to drop support for gnome-fallback: Gnome developers announced that they would create a classic mode in Gnome Shell http://lwn.net/Articles/526082/ Sounds like good marketing and public relations.
14 • SMS (by Jon Wright on 2012-11-26 13:37:35 GMT from Vietnam)
Jesse I think you gave SMS too much benefit of the doubt. This is a server distro so consistency is required. If there's a problem with the live version then they shouldn't ship it - don't blame yourself - tossing your strained conclusion it sounds simply like a bad experience.
15 • Boycott all PC that forces us to use Microsoft software using secure boot (by Rajesh on 2012-11-26 13:44:33 GMT from Qatar)
We all have a choice. Microsoft is forcing the world customer base from choosing another OS by forcing other corporations to make PC with SECURE BOOT feature. While Secure boot cannot prevent users from installing other OS but it makes it difficult to install other OS or even Dual boot by hiding other bios options that normal non-tech computer users are not aware of.
This is Anti Competitive practice and the entire world must oppose such moves by Microsoft.
It is a shame that They have resorted to such lowly ways to force users to use their OS.
Be Free like Linux and give users their Freedom.
16 • UberStudent (by John Dough on 2012-11-26 14:05:12 GMT from Canada)
looks like a pretty cool distro, wish I was a student, lol. On the other hand, I can't be bothered switching distros anymore, unless it's LTS, I do download and live test still for schizz n giggles.
@15 It's MS's last ditch effort to control and monopolize the computer world, fear not, they are losing that control.
Re: Debian, glad to see they are working hard at bug fixes, might actually switch back to it one day.
17 • @12 Secure Boot and Motherboards (by András on 2012-11-26 14:05:59 GMT from Romania)
In my country it´s still a bit cheaper to buy or order the components (CPU, Motherboard, HDD, etc.) and to build your one machine. And i usually don`t buy state of the art products. I am wondering however if Secure Boot will affect all the Motherboards and if the manufacturers will include the steps how to disable it in their products specs.
18 • Herding Cats (by monkeyboy on 2012-11-26 14:39:36 GMT from United States)
Secure boot will be dealt with and Linux will continue to exist. Things similar to this happen often and sadly some folks get a burr under their saddle and run around spooking the herd. Relax, take a breath get a beverage ad enjoy Linux.
19 • Secure Boot and system restore (by octathlon on 2012-11-26 14:58:28 GMT from United States)
Hmmm, so let's say you don't care about installing another OS and just use Windows. One day your hard drive fails, but you had created a Restore DVD or USB (remember you never get Windows install media with new computers any more). Your restore disk has the "right" OS, but you aren't allowed to boot from anything other than the hard drive, so you would be stuck unless you could figure out the process by trial and error like Jesse did.
Also, in a case like this, WHY should you have to disable Secure Boot just to pick a different boot device? Seems like they would want to keep that enabled to verify that you are booting from a valid Windows restore disk. That and hiding the keypress to get into setup makes no sense. There are other reasons to go to setup other than disabling Secure boot.
20 • Secure boot and Gnome Shell (by KI on 2012-11-26 15:02:11 GMT from Luxembourg)
1.- Purchasing a desktop computer without any OS pre-installed is indeed quite easy nowadays and so doing with a laptop is also getting easier everyday. There are a number of companies that allow you to fully customise your laptop and to choose whether or not you want an OS pre-installed and, if so, which one. I am not going to name any to avoid being accused of making publicity.
2.- Secure Boot can also be seen as an opportunity for companies willing to make a difference by selling "unlocked" or "freed" computers.
3.- Yesterday I was playing with E17 and it turns out that, at first login, it offers to the user the possibility of choosing either the desktop mode or the touchscreen mode. I wonder why it is so difficult for Gnome and Ubuntu doing just that rather than trying to impose upon us their Windows-like "visions".
21 • @ #18 herding cats (by octathlon on 2012-11-26 15:03:39 GMT from United States)
Monkeyboy, it's true that we shouldn't overreact, but if everyone took your attitude, there desktop Linux wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now. It's the ones who are passionate about it that make sure these problems get resolved, not the ones who relax and wait for others to solve it for them.
22 • @2 ("Why buy Secure Boot keys?) (by Pearson on 2012-11-26 15:05:34 GMT from United States)
I believe one reason the Linux Foundation is buying keys is for the ARM processors. While Microsoft has declared that Windows 8 Certified (note that we don't know if Jesse's computer is "Windows 8 Certified" - the website apparently didn't say) *Intel x86* computers must allow Secure Boot to be disabled, they (or is the UEFI group?) also declared that Windows 8 Certified *ARM* computers must *not* allow Secure Boot to be disabled.
In other words, there are "corner cases" in which possibly Secure Boot cannot be disabled:
(1) x86 processor that are *not* Windows 8 Certified
(2) ARM processors that *are* Windows 8 Certified
23 • System restore (by Simone on 2012-11-26 15:18:53 GMT from Spain)
@19 Four years ago I bought my EEEPc with a Windows XP restore disk. So far so good (or not) , but that restore disk partitions my disk to say 2x80Gb , but that is not what I want. If I want a different partitioning? If I want to restore only the Windows partition?
24 • Secure Boot on Ubuntu 12.10 (by Vijay on 2012-11-26 15:20:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
@Jesse, did you try Ubuntu 12.10 with secure boot enabled? It is supposed to have signed boot loader.
25 • @2: Secure Boot FUD? (by Pearson on 2012-11-26 15:26:17 GMT from United States)
In response to your (1), The UEFI Forum members are mostly hardware-oriented, with only two who have an interest in OS: Apple and Microsoft. The "hatred" is towards Microsoft because it *appears* (and history has supported this) that Microsoft is using their power to coerce hardware vendors to disenfranchise non-Windows Operating Systems.
26 • Secure Boot (by Jesse on 2012-11-26 15:46:18 GMT from Canada)
>> "(note that we don't know if Jesse's computer is "Windows 8 Certified"
If the computer is certified, it doesn't have any indication of it. There is no Windows logo or "Build for Win8" or similar stickers. Nothing in the documentation which came with the computer mentions Win8 certification and the product website doesn't say either way. HP hasn't responded to my e-mail about lack of indication of either certification nor Secure Boot.
>> "@Jesse, did you try Ubuntu 12.10 with secure boot enabled? It is supposed to have signed boot loader."
No, I was in a hurry to get up and running with a stable OS and my previous experience with 12.10 crossed that release off my list. I haven't tried any signed Linux distributions on this machine yet. Though I will give it a try when the next releases of Ubuntu and Fedora arrive.
27 • Secure Boot (by Bill on 2012-11-26 16:12:12 GMT from United States)
Thank you Jesse for detailing the steps to turn off Secure Boot on your new machine. I printed it out because I may be getting a new machine for Christmas. However, if I get to choose, I think I will call the computer maker (Dell, Gateway, etc) and order a machine with Linux on it, that is if they still make such a computer.
I currently have 7 OS in my boot menu and Win is only 1 of them.
28 • Windows-like.... (by Ray on 2012-11-26 16:27:42 GMT from United States)
@20
"3.- Yesterday I was playing with E17 and it turns out that, at first login, it offers to the user the possibility of choosing either the desktop mode or the touchscreen mode. I wonder why it is so difficult for Gnome and Ubuntu doing just that rather than trying to impose upon us their Windows-like "visions"."
This is just my opinion, but to me, seeing that ubuntu came out with the whole touch screen interface base long before win8 reared its ugly head, it seems like windows is trying to be more like certain linux OS's to me. I do agree with you tho on your point #3 of offering options (be it windows ir linux)
29 • UberStudent 2.0.4 (by jack on 2012-11-26 16:59:53 GMT from Canada)
Interesting os but in the release notes is the following:
"... If you install any additional desktop environment(s) in UberStudent 2.0.4, you will break the boundaries bewtween XFCE and MATE, and thus your system. Just don't do it. If you want a version of UberStudent 2.0.4 with a different desktop environment, ask UberStudent to build it."
how easy is it to break in other ways?
(would also like to know if "clipit" works correctly in UberStudent)
30 • Secure boot (by GODhack on 2012-11-26 17:48:43 GMT from Lithuania)
It is important to not buy "secure boot" computers and advise others to do so for political reasons.
Not so important how many clicks and brainwash tables ignores are needed to make computer useful.
31 • Disable Secure boot question (by DavidEF on 2012-11-26 17:51:26 GMT from United States)
As hayate asked above (post #2) what is the point in having certified keys if you have to DISABLE Secure Boot in order to boot from anything but the hard drive?
Also, why is HP being so nasty here? There is no reason other than Microsoft interference for them to make it so technically difficult to boot up a machine. If they were not specifically trying to make MS happy, they must be real idiots to make such a UI nightmare in their implementation of the UEFI.
Then again, as octathlon mentioned above (post #19), even a simple system restore could fall prey to this nightmare. What were they thinking?
32 • @5 - $3000 computer? (by Omari on 2012-11-26 18:09:34 GMT from United States)
@5 - you are doing something wrong if you are spending $3000 on a computer these days! The most expensive MacBook Pro is $2799! What are you buying?!
33 • RE: Windows-like (by Tourniquette on 2012-11-26 18:15:28 GMT from United States)
@28
Actually, as much as I hate to admit it, the Windows 8 interface was out before Unity. It's been around on the Xbox 360 for around 3-4 years now. Which is kinda telling for a company like Microsoft...they're trying to standardize all of their operating systems (PC, game systems, mobile devices) and it's not going to work. The interface is slow and un-intuitive on phones, alright for tablets, good enough for a game system, and absolutely terrible for desktops/laptops that aren't equipped with a touch screen. Why should I have to scroll the start menu?
I see E17 Touch as a great alternative to some of the other interfaces out there because it's clutter-free and acts kinda like LXDE, but with a touch screen. Very clean interface. As for the traditional desktop, looks like those previous Windows users should try and get comfortable with KDE/XFCE/Cinnamon. Maybe the fact that Microsoft is pushing people to ditch the keyboard and mouse will push more people into the open-source community who wouldn't normally be there. Guess it all depends on Windows 9 and whether or not Redmond is ready to listen to their userbase.
And from a traditional Linux-user standpoint, at least getting around Secure Boot doesn't seem like it's a complete lockdown like a lot of people were predicting. Seems like it's a pain, but doable.
34 • @31: HP being so nasty (by Pearson on 2012-11-26 18:25:48 GMT from United States)
>> Also, why is HP being so nasty here?
I agree, and was going to comment the same. It looks to me like Secure Boot, as unappealing as it is, wasn't the root problem. It was the lack of the standard "Press F12 to select boot device" and "Press F2 to configure BIOS" prompts. Maybe these are the "version 1.0" bugs in UEFI that will be ironed out? (referencing my trepidation when running software with a ".0" version)
35 • Dreamlinux Themes (by Andre Felipe on 2012-11-26 18:35:56 GMT from Brazil)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
36 • Increase Return Rates (by Robert Thompson on 2012-11-26 18:44:49 GMT from United States)
Jesse, you should return your new Pavilion P6-2310 to the vendor as being unusable. Remember how MS killed netbooks with "return rates" propaganda? Anyone who finds that their new computer is unusable should do the same. The increased costs associated with high return rates was what scared the entire industry away from producing GNU/Linux netbooks. Spread the word! Buy and return! The Uniform Commercial Code requires sellers to accept defective products for return without penalty and it's codified as law nationwide.
37 • #35 (by jack on 2012-11-26 18:49:07 GMT from Canada)
link broken "did not match any documents"
38 • Dreamlinux Link (by Andre Felipe on 2012-11-26 19:17:21 GMT from Brazil)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
39 • Fourth dimension (by Jesse on 2012-11-26 19:17:37 GMT from Canada)
>> "what is the point in having certified keys if you have to DISABLE Secure Boot in order to boot from anything but the hard drive?"
After you install the OS, if your boot loader is signed, then you can turn Secure Boot back on, thus giving Linux users the same benefits of Secure boot as Windows users. The concept of protecting the OS from pre-boot malware is a good one and users of Linux (or multi-boot environments) may want the feature. If your boot loader isn't signed then you lose the ability to utilize Secure Boot and lose out on that layer of protection.
40 • Just don't order a computer with an OS! (by Eric Wheeler on 2012-11-26 19:24:22 GMT from United States)
Even if the purchase didn't say Windows 8 Certified, UEFI or Secure Boot, I'm sure it indicated that it did come with Windows.
If you want to be certain that what purchase does not enforce secure boot, make sure it comes without an OS or without a hard disk.
Out of curiosity, I wonder if a secureboot BIOS would load option ROMs like that of PXE and SAS controllers. If not, then Windows 8 will not allow RAID configurations on fully-locked systems, thus limiting its possible installation base. I might call this operating-system Darwinism. However, if it does load the option ROMs, just flash your favorite PCIe network card with iPXE and bypass it!
You know, I believe video cards execute their BIOS on CPU, you might be able to hook in there with a custom video firmware, but I'm only guessing. Certainly UEFI initializes the video card and probably doesn't check the signature on its entry point.
-Eric
41 • @32 & 5 (by John Dough on 2012-11-26 19:29:35 GMT from Canada)
You are right 32, I can build a top of the line machine for $1,500 easy, new case and all, and that's in Canuck bucks.
42 • @11 TobiSGD (by dragonmouth on 2012-11-26 20:01:20 GMT from United States)
1) "Secure Boot is a specification released by the UEFI forum...why Microsoft is the only one you blame for Secure Boot." Because Microsoft is the 800 pound gorilla that wants to control everything.
2) "Microsoft has made sure that any x86 hardware that comes with the Windows 8 logo must have the option to a) disable Secure Boot, and b) add your own custom keys." Microsoft also has made sure that this information is not easily available to the users, if at all.
3) "Once the linux foundation has their bootloader signed all this should become a non-issue." We can only hope.
BTW - lots of people on this forum do not like or trust Microsoft. GET OVER IT!
43 • @ Simone (by Pauli on 2012-11-26 20:21:01 GMT from United States)
About secure boot/UEFI.... I recently helped a friend purchase parts for a new computer via Newegg and I then helped him assemble it and install Lubuntu 12.04 on it. The motherboard was an Intel DH61BEB3. The steps we had to follow to disable secure boot were: go into the Intel setup menu by pressing one of the function keys - F2 (as I recall), and then going through the menus to find UEFI - and select DISABLE - which then enabled the legacy BIOS as default. The computer would then boot from the DVD-Rom drive, USB, HD, or whatever else you specified as the boot device(s)...
And as far as the eeePC goes... I have a newer Asus eeePC 1025c that I use as my secondary computer, and I run Lubuntu 12.04 on it.... and it runs great. Why are you continuing to use Windows XP on your eeePC? Why not kick Winderrs to the curb and install a linux OS on the box? (and you can use GParted or any other linux partitioning tool to partition your HD any way you want...)
44 • SMS (by Osoloco on 2012-11-26 20:46:03 GMT from Ecuador)
Jesse: Indeed, in order to get the full benefits from SMS you have to install from the Native install iso, not from the LiveCD (I agree, the LiveCD install option may be missleading...).
SMS is an excellent option to build a server from an old computer, since as you have found, the resources it uses are very low. I have set a box in a PIII 256MB RAM with SMS for a home server about two years ago and is working since then practically without maintenance. Rock solid Slackware.
45 • @39 Secure Boot (by DavidEF on 2012-11-26 20:56:32 GMT from United States)
Jesse,
I thought of that, but it doesn't explain HAVING TO turn Secure Boot OFF in order to even USE another boot method. The default should be that it is easy to boot any device, and let Secure Boot itself decide if the contents of the device are safe to boot or not. Then, if someone wants to turn it off, they can, but if they have a signed kernel why should they HAVE TO? It seems like an unnecessary extra step, the only possible purpose of which would be to make it hard on people booting an "other OS" on the computer. If the manufacturers would just make a simple implementation that does what it is supposed to do without the UI nightmare, then as you said "thus giving Linux users the same benefits of Secure boot as Windows users" we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It seems to me that, in the case of Secure Boot, it would actually be easier to implement in a simple, straightforward way that doesn't make it hard on anyone, and doesn't alienate users. So I ask again "why is HP being so nasty here?" The only answer I can think of that makes sense is "because Microsoft wants them to".
46 • @43 mobo Secure Boot (by DavidEF on 2012-11-26 21:03:47 GMT from United States)
Great! Now we not only have to dodge malicious manufacturers in pre-built systems, but also in systems we build at home from components? It seems the only safe option soon will be to buy preloaded linux machines from ZaReason, System76, etc.
Tell me why a component mobo has Secure Boot enabled by default? What kind of idiot thought THAT was a good idea?
47 • machines without a pre-installed OS (by JR on 2012-11-26 21:08:57 GMT from Brazil)
Here in Brazil, the majority of sales are made by large supermarkets and large stores with pre-defined configurations and brands!
We can buy a computer with Linux pre-installed, but this surely has low capacity as manufacturers take advantage of the fact that there is no system cost and make it all more accessible configuration, then, will be a Celeron or an Semprom (or something like it)!
We can buy a computer without the system, but will have to come from a small shop that charges much more expensive, so the cost benefit is not worth! (in this case, desktop only!!)
So, it is not so easy like people are saying here!!!! At least not here in Brazil!
So, I agree with #8 greg and #12 Jesse, it can be a problem and, it is definitely not FUD Mr. #11 tobiSGD!!!
48 • @41 Top-of-the-line (by DavidEF on 2012-11-26 21:15:06 GMT from United States)
If you can build a top-of-the-line computer for $1500, then someone can sell that sam build for AT LEAST twice that. Therefore, it is still possible to spend $3000+ dollars on a new computer. It all depends on how top-of-the-line you get. There are video cards that could easily drive up the cost of even your $1500 computer to well into the $3000 dollar range, before you even think about selling it for a profit.
49 • Secure Boot and purchase (by candtalan on 2012-11-26 21:16:16 GMT from Sweden)
I believe that most, if not all hardware will in future (soon) only be available with secure boot 'on' or at least, only with uefi, not bios. I think this is likely because at present, most of the mass market is Windows, and manufacturers have little choice but to make products for the market. Hopefully as time passes, hardware will offer useful options, and offer means to disable, whatever as some customers require?
Dual booting will also I expect, remain dependent on uefi keys, even secure boot keys (?) It is certainly worth energetic questioning before purchase, hopefully with the bundle of cash, credit card or cheque book being liberally waved about under the sales person's nose and ultimately possibly rejecting on grounds of inflexibility.
I am reminded of the saying 'just because I am paranoid, does not mean they are not out to get me'
50 • @45 (by JR on 2012-11-26 21:16:53 GMT from Brazil)
excellent comment, I totally agree with you!
the system must check if the contents are signed, and do not prevent the boot by other means by default!!
51 • are you in the limbo? (by god777 on 2012-11-26 23:15:35 GMT from Mexico)
@tobiSGD Microsoft innocent? I do not think so, microsoft target is the ARM hardware. The past are desktop PCs, and present are ARM devices, mobile devices are the future, and msoft is too scary, linux (android) and ios are the kings of mobile market, imagine us which desktop market dissapeare tomorrow, Msoft is TOO SCARY and blast any competition to any cost or any way
52 • @ 5, 32, 41 top pc (by forlin on 2012-11-26 23:16:23 GMT from Portugal)
Intel i7 3970X = usd 1.000
board: Gigabyte X79S-UP5-WiFi = $ 330
G.Skill Ripjaws Z-Series 32 GB DDR3-1866 = $ 170
EVGA GeForce GTX 690 = $ 1 000
(2) SSD: 256 GB Samsung 840 Pro = $ 540
total $ 3 040
plus power supply, case, cooler, keyboard, mouse, optical drives, lcd monitor ........
53 • @52 & others, re: top of the line PC (by John Dough on 2012-11-26 23:58:10 GMT from Canada)
While I agree with what you folks are saying, unless you are an EXTREME gamer, etc, do you REALLY need a $1,000 processor and a $1,000 video card?!
This would be a decent and reasonably priced 'high end':
i7 3820=$300
decent mobo=$250
decent video card=$200
decent quad channel ram=$200
1 SSD=$150 (I would buy 2 for a 1.1GB/s read/write Raid 0)
PSU=$150
case=$100
total=$1,350, that still leaves $150 room to upgrade to a $300 mobo, a $200 PSU and a $150 case, anything else (in my opinion) is throwing your money away just for the sole purpose of bragging rights. The $700 diff in price between a $300 CPU and a $1,000 CPU is not justified by the very slight performance gain, if the performance gain was tripled, that would be a diff story.
54 • @53 (by JR on 2012-11-27 01:02:37 GMT from Brazil)
they are talking about top of the line....
"decent" is top??
it's the same discussion of last week, but inverted (what is an old computer?)
to me, decent isn't top but, who am I, right?
55 • @54 re: top of the line (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 01:50:56 GMT from Canada)
I build a new machine about every 3 years, even though what I build is relevant for 6 years, I am due for a new build, what I described in my last post is MORE THAN ENOUGH computing power for a gamer or transcoder like myself. I will put it another way, after a certain performance/dollar value point, you are just throwing your money away for bragging rights, or for a few more numbers in benchmarks compared to other people? Do those few numbers really mean that much? Not to me if it means the build will be DOUBLE the money. I did the money waste thing in 2006 (the CPU was $750, a few months later it dropped in price to $350), I learned from that experience, never again.
56 • Computer builds these days.. (by brad on 2012-11-27 03:01:35 GMT from United States)
for NON gamers (and most hard core gamers are using a console and/or windows 7/8) Linux is not for gamers, not at this time, maybe in the future.. but not today.. so if you are a non-gamer.. you can get a 8 core amd for 169, and motherboard for less than 175.. 16 gigs of ram 85 bucks.. 100 for 64/90gig ssd + 80 for a 500gig hd/1tb and 100-150 for a nice middle of the road dvi/hdmi card.. that equals 630-680 leaving you plenty for a case, p/s, and even an lcd monitor to be under the 1,000, dont know what people are talking about, of course unless you have money to burn.. but amd gives you more bang for your buck.. (non gaming that is).. but it's all about choice right?
57 • @56 (by JR on 2012-11-27 03:43:20 GMT from Brazil)
I agree that your configuration is more than enough, the John Dough configuration too! I also agreed that to spend more than that is a waste of money, but that is not the point of the discussion, they were talking about top of the line and not cost-effective!! (cost benefit or something like that, sorry, bad english)
semantics, drives me crazy... sorry about that too!
58 • @57 (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 05:29:17 GMT from Canada)
my builds ARE high end, they just don't empty out my bank account, I don't cross that ridiculous line anymore. Cost effective to me is building the cheapest piece of junk possible for checking email. On a junker, you can't realistically have a 5-sided cube desktop, transcode, email running, messenger, transission running, etc etc, power user multitasking takes some guts under the hood. My point all along was, you can have high-end and not go broke at the same time.
59 • Secure Boot (by Sebastian on 2012-11-27 06:08:43 GMT from Canada)
What Microsoft is doing with the Secure Boot should be illegal.
60 • CPU openmp: GPU Nvidia cuda: (by zykoda on 2012-11-27 07:33:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Recent experiments using the CPU and/or GPU with parallel code have proved interesting. openmp (gcc -openmp option) and/or cuda (Nvidia) can go a long way in providing excellent performance provided parallel algorithms exist. Of course there are very restricted distros that provide an "lazy" setup. Fedora 16 was currently easiest for me. A bit of googling will provide some examples to follow. I don't know of any approach in FLOSS that can give such facilities, but I stand targetted willing to learn. Humble desktops can really perform beyond their "normal" capacity. YMMV very much so. Make your CPU and GPU cores work for their keep. The machine I use cost just ~£100 to "upgrade (Mobo. AMD CPU, 6GB RAM, Nvidia card)" from an "old" Windows chassis.
61 • Dodging the Windows tax (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-11-27 09:42:25 GMT from Spain)
I have been promoting the idea of avoiding the Windows tax since I startded using Linux.
Let's face it. You can build your own computer from parts of dead computers (which is pretty eco friendly). You can buy second cheap hand computers that fit your needs. Many firms sell refurbiched computers and will not charge you because of the OS. Just avoid MS certified second hand dealers and that's OK. Of course, if you really need/want Winbug, then you'd better buy the traditional way.
As for buying computers with no OS, I second that when possible. Hell, I will ever choose a router which supports firmware swithching over other cheaper models even if I don't plan to change the firmware. The reason it is so problematic to get a no-OS computer is that the ones who would buy them choose to bite the bitter bullet and buy Win machines.
62 • @61 (by greg on 2012-11-27 12:01:33 GMT from Slovenia)
i saw a huge selection of laptops with no os preloaded in Asia. being sold at cheap prices. if you wnated they would load the windows os for you, but you had to ask. there were also some mashcines with windows preloaded. though in minority. in the end i bit the bullet as you say and bought a windows preinstalled maschine. why? well ironically noOS maschines either had crappy battery or were not fully compatible with linux (battery issues, suspend issues, trackpad issues, sound issues, wi-fi issues...). but this windows preloaded maschine (HP dm1) is fully compatible with linux it seems. it even comes with version of linux on it. a strange kind of install on FAT32 partition though...
63 • Windows 8 without Secure Boot? (by AnklefaceWroughtlandmire on 2012-11-27 13:37:28 GMT from Ecuador)
So in the case that the user disables Secure Boot as described here, will Windows 8 still boot?
64 • @61 Recycled computers (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 13:52:59 GMT from Canada)
The way things are going with economies world wide, there could very well be a HUGE market for light, yet functional distro/no 'Winbug' as you put it, recycled computers, something I became very good at over the years, yardsale and bin diving parts aquisitions, lol. You need a super computer these days to run a modern MS OS (that is if one wants to have any computing overhead left to actually run an application, lol) and all that comes with it, OS eye candy, 3rd party protection, browser plugins, opes forgot about all that lovely bloatware/spamware that usually comes with a Windows machine. I recently revived a P4 1.7GHz with wattOS R5, total cost to get it going, $23 for a 1GB stick of RAM and $55 for a PCI slot 512MB Geforce 6200, does everything I need to do (one 'intensive' thing at a time, granted). Students who don't have a 'money tree' would be a good market.
65 • Buying a new PC (by FipRadioFan on 2012-11-27 13:55:38 GMT from France)
There's an interesting article on OS News this week ...
Why I Use Generic Computers and Open Source Software
http://www.osnews.com/story/26563/Why_I_Use_Generic_Computers_and_Open_Source_Software
... discussing the advantages of generic "white box" PCs over off-the-shelf branded PCs. I have always gone one step further and built my own PCs entirely myself from properly specified and documented standard components. This is child's play for anyone showing some genuine interest in such matters and it usually isn't more expensive either.
66 • My testing of light distros (by Leo on 2012-11-27 13:59:50 GMT from United States)
Thank you all for the feedback last week. I tested a couple distros on my dying eeepc. I needed something really light with little footprint, that would launch a browser recently apt to do internet radio (flash is needed for that)
Puppy was the most recommended one, and I can see why. Really barebones. It was great for basic use. No need to install anything, beyond having a partition to save a few bits so next session you remember your settings, etc. It had a couple issues: connecting to the net wasn't as elegant or straightforward as more complete distros, and the USB digital speakers were not recognized off the bat (they did take some tinkering with XFCE Mint Debian Edition, to be fair).
Another one that was highly praised was Crunchbang. What a surprise. I loved it. How clean and polished, and at the same time minimalistic. It has its oddities: desktop icons are not naturally supported, but this is part of the clean approach, and I recommend keeping with its philosophy. There must be a quick launcher you can attach to the panel, or something, for commonly used apps. Anyways, I was blown away. Unfortunately, it won't run on very old hardware, because it uses the Ubuntu kernel, that doesn't support non-PAE CPUs (I installed the "backported edition).
Anyways, it was lovely to play with these two awesome distros. Both are highly recommended. Puppy as a very, very barebone but useable deskop, and the other as a modern, clean, but minimalistic desktop. Thank you all!
67 • Secure Boot(y) (by Bruce on 2012-11-27 14:40:37 GMT from Japan)
Rather than curse the darkness, we might illuminate it by (someone?) creating a guide to (relatively) open-source hardware. Some kind of system to guide the buyers of computer hardware should be created (or popularized if it already exists). Perhaps Distrowatch is well-placed to do this. It could be as useful as the distribution listings. Laptops, desktops, and components could be rated for Linux compatibility--particularly if the vendors themselves have chosen to be opaque in this regard. Hardware could be rated on whether it has secure boot or not, if it has it, how easy is it to disable, how many current distros run on it, and so on.
68 • UEFI doesn't scare me (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 15:05:21 GMT from Canada)
Judging by the sheer size of the open-source community, there is dogged determination out there to not let anything stand in our way. It's only just further alienating the people that actually know what they are doing with computers...and the people that make recomendations to friends and family.
69 • @68 UEFI doesn't scare me either, but... (by DavidEF on 2012-11-27 16:59:48 GMT from United States)
What scares me is the outright malicious garbage we get from the manufacturers trying to make MS happy. Jesse's experience with HP shows us a lot. They seem to be fine with not even listing the stupid thing as Win 8 certified, yet making it so stupidly hard to boot from an alternative media (anything other than the main hard drive). Then, there's the experience Pauli wrote about (post #43) where the mobo from Newegg was armed with Secure Boot turned on by default! Where are we headed next? Only MS and friends know! Our hardware is being locked up, whether we pay the MS tax or not! Looks to me like it's time for developers to turn their attention more toward free and open BIOS (or UEFI) to replace the junk we get from the manufacturers. I'd be willing to pay extra for a mobo that had been flashed with a FOSS BIOS, all other things being equal.
UEFI and Secure Boot don't have to be a stumblingblock to anyone who wants to use their own computer their own way. MS and friends have taken a potential security feature and turned it into a lock-in feature which benefits them at the expense of their customers.
70 • Re: 66 My testing of light distros (by Leo on 2012-11-27 17:11:49 GMT from United States)
To be sure, the three mentioned distros are very different.
* Mint XFCE Debian Edition is typical Mint: fully end user oriented, very graphical, very polished.The downside, for older hardware, is that it installs a lot of bloat, and updates can be lenghty. It took 24hs on my usb key.
* Crunchbang is actually really slick, but mostly for techie types. Adding a program to Autostart means editing a text file. You do have a menu entry that opens an editor and shows the file, but you need to edit a shellscript.
* Puppy is really an ultralight, live USB distro with some data persistence. It fits its niche perfectly, but it's not a modern, visually appealing distro.
71 • Light and agile - modular? (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2012-11-27 20:52:30 GMT from United States)
While Slax (version 7 coming soon), Puppy (in its myriad versions) and SliTAZ are indeed compact and often used live, I suggest they bring modularity less often found in other Linux systems' mini or net install setups - without the steep learning curve of, say, xen. Polish just takes time, visual appeal just takes artistry. Bling is better contained in an ephemeral layer at a priority that doesn't interfere with latency, IMO. If their communities became as coordinated as Mageia's group aims to be ... potent potential!
72 • Uberstudent (by Dave Postles on 2012-11-27 21:21:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
Good to see that it has been updated. It is an excellent idea.
73 • Bloat? (by ThoroughlyConfused on 2012-11-27 21:35:07 GMT from United States)
Pardon the question of a noob, but this I have to ask.
What is this "bloat" so many talk about?
I'm running Mint 13 with things loaded in it I will never, or at least hardly ever, use.
Fully updated with several games added and it comes to 5.1 gig total.
You know who never came in under 10 gigs for me, so can someone clarify for me?
74 • Kit with no OS (by Dave Postles on 2012-11-27 21:40:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
I bought a PC built to my specification from a supplier in the UK (so, yes, I should build my own). Although it was to be supplied with no OS, it actually came with Windows pre-installed. When I queried this situation, the supplier responded that they used Windows for bench testing each product. Fortunately, it was before the secure boot issue and it will serve me for some considerable time (64-bit with 8Gb RAM).
75 • Linux Mint 14/Ubuntu 12.10 (by Dave Postles on 2012-11-27 21:45:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried both distros on my desktop (installed to HD) and experienced some problems. The boot process was erratic - occasionally hanging. I wonder if anyone else had this issue.
76 • @73 question of bloat (by DavidEF on 2012-11-27 22:01:11 GMT from United States)
The idea of an OS being "bloated" is a subjective opinion that will differ from person to person. To me, it is the same as telling someone that they are "fat". We all have opinions of what that might mean. What some call "bloated" others refer to as "complete" and "fully functional". I would say also that if there is truly excess code that could be trimmed down without losing ANY functionality AT ALL, then the software could be objectively said to be "bloated". But, usually, this is not the way the term "bloated" is used in these conversations. It usually comes down to a person's preference of applications, desktop effects, and other things taking up resources. I'll happily give some resources to a DE making my life more comfortable, whereas someone else would disagree that using that DE was comfortable at all.
77 • @73 re:bloat (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 22:32:30 GMT from Canada)
In the 'Windows world', it's a ton of unnecessary garbage running in the background, mostly 3rd party, some processes from within the OS itself, many processes that you would ever need or use, Microsoft's answer to hiding their corporate partners' bloat was to auto hide all those pesky little icons in the system tray down beside the clock. Huge corporations that like to have a 'presence' in Windows will insist their software run in the background (and system tray icon) for 'quick starts' and/or proprietary updates. There are similar processes in Linux but mostly for fast searches and Bluetooth, etc. I for one don't own any Bluetooth devices and never use it but almost every distro I try live or install, I have to shut it off for some reason, that to me is bloat. Sooner than later, especially a Windows machine, owned by a not so savvy individual is overwhelm by said bloat ('toolbars' included) and the machine practically grinds to a halt, throw in a few viruses and it's dead, that's when they phone me. ;-)
78 • @73...again, lol (by John Dough on 2012-11-27 22:45:43 GMT from Canada)
Think of a CPU as a person juggling spinning plates in the air, a decent OS makes the CPU juggle far less plates in the air than a bloated one, leaving computing overhead room for applications. Software is becoming increasingly bloated due to security threats, more functionality and increased aesthetics, making CPUs juggle even more 'plates'. That being said, if it takes 90% of your system's resources just to sit at the desktop idle, you are not going to do much else with the computer.
79 • @75 (by Mac on 2012-11-27 23:02:14 GMT from United States)
I have run Kubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 with mepis 12B2 in the middle since they came out and no problem. I like kde been with it abt 3 yrs now. And am not thinking about changing. Suits me well for what I want to do.
Have fun Mack
80 • secure boot (by gee7 on 2012-11-27 23:34:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
@65
Thanks for that link, FipRadioFan.
Interestingly, in the post that you link, Howard Fosdick has this to say about UEFI:
Vendors are well aware that generic hardware and portable software threaten their profits. That's why most proprietarize any way they can. Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is the latest of many attempts to kill competition by an artificial barrier. The rationale for UEFI lockdown you often read about -- that it prevents boot viruses -- is intended to mislead. The last time secure booting was a major problem was back when people booted from floppies. It's not boot viruses you have to worry about, it's those within Windows that cause the problems.
81 • @ 67 • Secure Boot(y) (hardware compatibility) (by Andy Axnot on 2012-11-28 01:40:37 GMT from United States)
"Laptops, desktops, and components could be rated for Linux compatibility--particularly if the vendors themselves have chosen to be opaque in this regard."
This is something I have longed for for years. I think it would be a great service to those of us who use Linux, etc., anything other than Windows. It's not always easy to research hardware, manufacturers often don't answer inquiries, etc. It can be very hard to know what *current* hardware is compatible with Linux. Much is, but it is too easy to get burned.
Even those who rate components on sites such as Newegg often don't bother to make it easy to find their reviews by mentioning "Linux". I have learned to search for "linux" and for "ubuntu", but I'm often surprised when I stumble on something that says "works fine (or poorly) with [Fedora | Suse | Mageia]".
Andy
82 • linux hardware compatibility list (by RollMeAway on 2012-11-28 06:09:20 GMT from United States)
Doing a quick web search for "linux hardware compatibility list" returns an extensive list. Even some distros maintain such a list.
Try simply adding your particular piece of hardware to the search. Highly likely you will find the info you seek.
83 • Hardware (by Landor on 2012-11-28 06:43:27 GMT from Canada)
The major issue with hardware is that a revision usually means a change in the hardware. A wireless card for instance can change chips multiple times while still having the same product name/number.
Most people don't realize this until it's too late, and it's also something that doesn't get discussed while writing a review of a product, or stating that it's open. It may be open, but only for that revision. This follows the same path for desktops and laptops.
There's no magic wand to wave to get your information. You need to do your own legwork. If you're buying a desktop/laptop, check out the hardware at the store. Then search if there's drivers for all the components available. If you're buying a specific piece of hardware, check on the box to see what revision/version it is.
If you're a member of this community and you get burned buying hardware that's not supported, that's your own fault. Only a complete noob shouldn't know better. If it was cheap, well, you got what you paid for, period.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
84 • Livarp (by No on 2012-11-28 13:00:13 GMT from United States)
Livarp: http://arpinux.org/livarp/index.html
85 • Less snoopy alternative to Chromium (by John Dough on 2012-11-28 22:12:09 GMT from Canada)
SRWare Iron, very interesting, based on Chromium without the snoopyness.
86 • #70 Leo (by Ika on 2012-11-28 22:50:23 GMT from Spain)
"* Puppy is really an ultralight, live USB distro with some data persistence. It fits its niche perfectly, but it's not a modern, visually appealing distro."
Try MacPup (another Puppy flavor) and then I'd like to see your opinion about "visually appealing". :)
(Just be aware and patient with the low download rate - about 50 kb/s)
87 • Re: Puppy (by John Dough on 2012-11-29 03:00:53 GMT from Canada)
Pretty cool for what it is but wow, is it ever minimal, too minimal for my blood, wattOS works for me, Xubuntu and Lubuntu are lite, but not lite enough. I have yet to give #!CrunchBang a spin. Speaking bangs and crunches, in a car accident for instance, doesn't the bang come before the crunch, lol, just sayin'.
88 • @83 Hardware (by Ron on 2012-11-29 04:08:08 GMT from United States)
"There's no magic wand to wave to get your information. You need to do your own legwork. If you're buying a desktop/laptop, check out the hardware at the store"
Well that's the bugaboo about buying cheap from some internet site.
A real brick & mortar store should let you do a hands-on examination. Try your live DVD/USB stick, flip the device over, read the labels, squeeze like a tomato, push it, test it....
Yep, ye sometimes gets what ye pays for.
Ron
Poke it with yr stick too!
89 • @88 Testing Hardware (by DavidEF on 2012-11-29 13:05:39 GMT from United States)
Ron,
That's excellent advice for someone looking to buy a new computer. But, I've seen some stores that won't let you do all that pokin' with a stick. I guess you could do it anyway, while they're not looking. It might be funny to boot up a dozen or so laptops from live cd's and leave 'em there for other customers to find.
Then again, that kind of pokin' around usually can't be done at all if you build your own computers, like I do. You just have to do extra "legwork" with hunting down detailed specs, reviews and such. Not a bit easy when trying to get perfect compatibility. Usually, I end up settling for "compatible with a little fudging around." because "works out of the box" is so hard to find. Manufacturers just aren't interested.
90 • Testing hardware (by Jesse on 2012-11-29 14:45:03 GMT from Canada)
All of the physical stores I've been in refuse to let customers try out alternative operating systems on the display models. They have all considered it a big faux pas.
If a person really wants to make sure the computer they are buying will work with Linux then I recommend buying a computer which comes pre-installed with a Linux distro or is certified to work with a Linux distro. Some of the bigger Linux projects maintain lists of hardware known to be good. Ubuntu, for example, certifies both desktop and server hardware.
91 • Secure Boot (by Linuxium on 2012-11-29 15:32:42 GMT from Australia)
Wubi?
92 • Linux Mint 14 and some gerenal Linux issues (by Angry Bob on 2012-11-29 17:18:12 GMT from Germany)
I wonder why some things simply don't work the way they should. Distro 1 works perfect, distro 2 is unable to fix the bug. This is really annoying.
I installed Mint 14 Cinammon. Okay, installer was less than user-friendly but it worked - with some hiccups. It took pretty long to install the OS. Then a reboot, and the first issue: While in live mode, the bootscreen (plymouth) works. Once the system is installed, the bootscreen is broken. Okay, install Nvidia stuff. Reboot. Still broken. Ignore and carry one. Then try to get used to the Mint software-installer and i must say, it is a complete mess and managed to hang up occasionally. I tried to install e.g. inkscape - which took forever. Then it reports: Everything finished. Heyo! SO let's launch it. But: No inkscape installed. Reboot, rebuilddb. No way, it simply wasn't installed.
Then: Cannot adjust Screen brightness, cannot adjust sound volume on the Samsung lappy. Argh! No color calibration possible.
Okay, back to Mageia. But: Mint somehow managed to mess the harddrive-partition structure, that Mageia was unable to install and mint was unable to reinstall, too. Ack! Sorry folks, but Mint 14 is a bust. Really. (Mageia is also far from perfect but it has at least less quirks).
Until that nonsense ain't fixed, no Linux distro will be installed alongside the lousy and slow but working Win7 on this lappy.
There was a time, when Linux worked way better than Windows (Red Hat 9 and Slack were more pleasant to use than Win or Mac back then). What the f**** is going on? Since three, four years, developers seem to be more interested in playing around on newest technology and throwing bad code at the end-user, not caring about him and the problems he runs into, instead of FIXING stuff, keeping stuff compatible and stable.
93 • W8 and boot options etc.. (by Jordan on 2012-11-29 17:35:24 GMT from United States)
I discovered that not only W8 as OEM disallows boot options, but also the ($39) downloaded version. This is an HP Pavilion m7 which came with the feature of clicking the F9 key during boot to be presented with a boot option list (Hard Drive, CD, etc), along with F12 to get into BIOS.
No more. Those keys now do nothing, although the F2 key will bring me to the HP recovery menu, which does not include access to any boot options.
Still searching around for a way to get rid of this Windows 8, one of the most preposterous operating systems I've ever seen on a computer (perhaps on a tab or big phone it's ok, I don't know yet). I cannot even use my old W7 recover stuff because can't boot from DVD. .. oy vey. I feel hijacked.. I'll get over it. ;)
94 • RE:88 (by Landor on 2012-11-29 17:54:55 GMT from Canada)
That's it, buying online you have to roll the dice in a lot of cases. Even the sales person will more often than not have no idea which revision of a part or system you'll get.
I don't advocate the use of another operating system, but you don't even need a CD or USB drive when in a store. All you need to do is bring up the hardware list in the other operating system. Anyone 'who actually wants a compatible system' will know just by looking at the devices if it is or not, because they will already have done their homework. Most stores have systems out like that, and at the very least one or two systems connected online. Then you can get online and check things like the mic and such which can be very problematic like wireless can be.
Cheap is relative too. I bought a 15.6 laptop that is completely supported in the hardware by floss except for the bios for $249 or so a little over a year ago. The laptop's amazing and I'm on it right now. It's my main system plugged into a 25 inch monitor, albeit by vga not hdmi. I watched and waited though for the right system. That's the point, a lot of people will just jump at getting a system and get it right then and there with very little research (if any) and pick something up because it was 'cheap'. Cheap also means they're now going to complain all over the Linux Landscape that their hardware doesn't work, or they'll complain about problematic wireless in reviews and such. It's very common.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
95 • Mint (by Jesse on 2012-11-29 20:04:00 GMT from Canada)
>> "Once the system is installed, the bootscreen is broken. Okay, install Nvidia stuff. Reboot. Still broken. Ignore and carry on"
For the past several releases Mint has disabled the boot splash screen once the distro is installed. It's not broken, it's simply turned off. This is mentioned in the release notes.
96 • Linux Lite 1.0.2 (by R.Bird. on 2012-11-29 20:50:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
744 meg.........hmmmm.
Something lost in the meaning of "lite" when I can't fit it on cd. Such a shame as I like Xfce desktop.
wobbly
p.s. Thanks for Distrowatch.
97 • #95 (by Angry Bob on 2012-11-29 21:52:42 GMT from Germany)
Since when is Plymouth disabled once the system is installed? No no... it is installed, enabled but unable to produce something useful. All I got was a black screen with some white and green dots spread randomly. That is NOT normal and should be fixed. Other distros have no problem with that (Mageia e.g.). This lousy quality-control is just terribly annoying.
98 • @90 Re: Testing Hardware (by John Dough on 2012-11-29 23:31:07 GMT from Canada)
That's strange because my local computer parts store (don't want to use the full name here...CC) are more than happy to let me test pretty much anything shy of sticking a cpu in a mobo right on the counter, lol. They love me in there and the fact I run Linux, oh well, diff stores, diff attitudes I guess.
99 • Mint (by Jesse on 2012-11-29 23:45:30 GMT from Canada)
>> "Since when is Plymouth disabled once the system is installed? No no... it is installed, enabled but unable to produce something useful. "
Since at least Mint 12, possibly before. See the release notes here: http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_lisa.php The black screen is by design in order to be uniform over a wide range of video cards.
100 • RE: 93 UEFI...help (by ChiJoan on 2012-11-30 04:39:33 GMT from United States)
On a group I belong to I mentioned your problem, here is one reply:
"He must have a newer computer, with UEFI and Secure Boot."
"If he wants to access the DVD drive on bootup to reinstall Windows 7, he has only to go into BIOS and disable Secure Boot."
"Much discussion of the topic is here, among many other places":
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/22/protecting-the-pre-os-environment-with-uefi.aspx
I hope the link helps, now I'm glad I can't afford a newer computer...
Joan in Reno
101 • @100 Re:UEFI (by John Dough on 2012-11-30 04:57:00 GMT from Canada)
Looks like more Windows 'phoning home' to me, sniffing everything you install. The MS push to control the computing world goes on, too bad Linux the "cancer" (Ballmer) is NEVER going away. The last people hardware makers want alienate is geeks like us, we are there bread and butter.
102 • Mint 11 - 14 (by zykoda on 2012-11-30 07:40:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
My experience: Beyond version 10 mint became "difficult" to install and configure. Quite often what used to work on various hardware no longer does. Sometimes even the live versions would fail to boot from a hard disk iso via GRUB, GRUB2 or a chainloaded plop (where no USB boot from BIOS existed). I found the LTS version 13 to be extremely obdurate to install on several machines, which is why they still run version 9 without problems. I have tried DVDs, USB sticks and direct hard disk installs to try and circumvent such install failures. There are enough comments on the web to suggest that other users are equally challenged. And that's before UEFI secure boot issues. Hardware is always to be considered suspect, but I have found no faulty hardware related problems to blame. YMMV
103 • @102 Re:Mint 11 and beyond (by John Dough on 2012-11-30 13:43:30 GMT from Canada)
What I do is try another flavour with basically the same kernel, Mint being Ubuntu based, there is a kazillion other distros to verify with. I recently had the same problem with a network adapter in an old junker I built for lite distro testing, any distro with a kernel beyond 3.0.x didn't like the card and wouldn't initialize it, so I settled on wattOS R5, works like a charm and still supported for another 1/2 year or so.
104 • re #100 (by Jordan on 2012-11-30 18:03:52 GMT from United States)
Thank you ChiJoan, but the "f" keys will not even allow for access to BIOS. There only key that works in Windows 8 (downloaded/installed version) is the one which allows access to the HP recovery area and that area has no menu or provision to get into BIOS or a boot menu.
Unless I can find a software disk that will let me wipe that hard drive clean, I am freaking stuck with Windows 8. Fortunately I have this spare hard drive which contains Linux (Vector).
105 • Salix14 and gslapt (by Rolandl on 2012-11-30 18:15:21 GMT from United States)
Just installed Salix14-64, and I like it. But Gslapt only points to repositories at
salix.enialis.net. Since this is supposed to be Slack14 compatible, can/should
I add http://mirrors.slackware.com/slackware/slackware64-14.0/ to the Sources
list? If not, why not? If so, why isn't it in there already? There would be lots more
software available, which is IMHO the biggest drawback to Salix at this time.
I tried to post my question at the Salix forum, but it was rejected: "You are not
allowed to post any URLs until you have posted 3 times." Dumb!
106 • #105: Salix14 repos (by Caitlyn Martin on 2012-11-30 19:28:51 GMT from United States)
You should NOT need to point to the upstream Slackware repos. Doing so breaks the automated dependency checking for Slackware packages. SalixOS repos do point back to upstream but add on the required dependency info.
107 • #105 One more thing (by Caitlyn Martin on 2012-11-30 19:29:54 GMT from United States)
Their policy on URLs in the forum is not dumb. It eliminates a lot of spam.
108 • Uberstudent (by Nanlee on 2012-12-01 01:39:40 GMT from Canada)
Tried Uberstudent in Virtual Box and a live USB. Seems to be fast and smooth. But, when running as live USB on a Sony laptop, it can't properly identify keys. Type j, it shows 1 and basically, it turned the left section into a number pad. I tried to select about 10 different keyboard setting. But none of them works properly. Disappointed.
109 • Too many spook shows? (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2012-12-01 02:15:09 GMT from United States)
I just assumed the Ubuntu remix that came out about the same time as Win8 was slapped together by MS's CIA to make their latest look somehow less abysmal?
110 • Disk Eraser (by Terence on 2012-12-01 12:23:50 GMT from China)
@104 I am a fan of Parted Magic to scrub my hard drives clean. The disk eraser function presents you some 7-8 options to do so using different methods. I keep the latest version on a thumb drive and when I need to do some housecleaning, I can do what I need.
111 • secure boot (by imnotrich on 2012-12-01 18:29:40 GMT from Mexico)
Bought an HP windows 7 machine used recently, it wasn't 2 years old and (that I knew of) did not have secure boot.
My plan was to use the pre-installed 1tb drive for Debian, and install windows 7 on a different 500g drive.
Created restore disks then tried unsuccessfully to use dban to wipe both drives. Several versions of dban failed the same way, and error message about possible bad sectors (the drives were good).
I had set the boot order 500gb first, 1tb second in both the bios and cabling but that shouldn't matter for dban.
Anyway I had to run gparted multiple times to finally clear the drives and then...booting to the restore disks I had created earlier, those restore disks kept trying to install to the 1tb drive. I finally got W7 to install to the 500gb but (reproduceable, three attempts failed the same way) when the install was done the system wouldn't boot (it was still looking for an os on the 1tb drive).
I used a generic windows 7 repair disk (not my system's restore disk) to fix the boot sector on the w7 drive and I could boot into windows. Then I learned that the HP restore disks had created a w7 boot sector on the 1tb drive. Ok, no biggie. I then went on to install Squeeze 64, with grub to the mbr of the 500gb drive. Once done, system wouldn't boot again...because either windows or Debian had set the boot flag for both drives. After I fixed flags using Gparted, everything worked fine.
Point I'm trying to make here is there appears to be something on the 1tb drive and/or HP restore disk that overrides bios settings similar to secure boot. And that's scary. Like when Sony music cd's installed rootkits on your computers. What's next?
112 • @111 (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2012-12-01 19:01:12 GMT from United States)
Does DBAN maybe not support SATA drives unlike gparted? That may be the problem.
113 • Apology to LxLite; etc (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2012-12-01 20:37:17 GMT from United States)
OTOH, maybe it was just a clever marketing move. Sorry.
My HTML {snarky}...{\snarky} was swallowed by null.
I keep version dban 1.x around for older hardware, and prefer Pmagic with its dban version 2.x / Eraser for more wiping options. Both work fine with SATA drives (for me).
How long will Microsoft tolerate vendors leaving Windows pre-installed after "bench-testing"? Doesn't that make such vendors Pirates!? Or is MS into donation (of its OS) by such vendors?
114 • The best way to boot Linux (by RHEL fanboooooi on 2012-12-01 22:33:59 GMT from Brazil)
This was Jesse's overcomplicated solution for the UEFI's Secure Boot issue:
> Boot machine while pressing F10
> Find Secure Boot in the menu tree, ignore warnings
> Disable Secure Boot feature
> Enable legacy boot options
> Enable specific legacy devices, such as USB devices
> Save and reboot while holding down F9
And this is a much easier approach:
> Buy a server motherboard (no Secure Boot feature at all) certified for RHEL.
> Install Stella Linux and just press the reset button.
That's it.
115 • At last, the new aptosid. (by Chris on 2012-12-02 01:11:05 GMT from United States)
It's exciting to me to see the new aptosid.
I've updated the 32 bit xfce version to Gnome with smxi,
but still don't have the full Gnome 3 desktop. I'll get there eventually.
The similar 'siduction' will also have a new version soon.
Maybe I'll have better luck with Gnome 3.
116 • Uberstudent/Nanlee (by Dave Postles on 2012-12-02 14:07:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re- the keyboard mapping of Uberstudent on notebooks, the 64-bit version works fine on my 64-bit notebook, but I have a similar keyboard mapping problem with OSGeo (only 32-bit, derived also from Ubuntu with xfce) on my older 32-bit notebook. OSGeo gives a multitude of keyboard mappings for branded notebooks from which to select, but as my notebook was assembled by Novatech, it's a devil to find the right keyboard. I therefore have the same problem on the right side of the keyboard where the characters work as a number pad, even when I select a notebook mapping. Does anyone know of a workaround?
117 • OS4 13.1 "OpenDesktop" (by Herbert Thornton on 2012-12-02 18:51:53 GMT from Canada)
I've tried, several times, after downloading the .iso (of both the 32-bit & 64-bit) versions of OS4 13.1 "OpenDesktop", to burn an install disk so that I could try the system out.
All that happened was that the DVD seems to have been made useless. Installing the O/S has been impossible. This doesn't happen with any other O/S.
Any idea of what's wrong?
118 • Re #112 (by imnotrich on 2012-12-03 00:25:24 GMT from Mexico)
Yes, DBAN supports SATA drives as long as they're connected via the motherboard's SATA controller.
DBAN does not seem to work with SATA or IDE drives that come in via a usb hard drive enclosure. Which is unfortunate because sometimes I want to wipe drives without a computer to install them in.
I have not tested DBAN with external usb hard drives.
119 • RE#117 OS4 13.1 (by Neal on 2012-12-03 01:27:37 GMT from United States)
I have the same issue...Do you get the weird kernel message right after booting the dvd?
Number of Comments: 119
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| Archives |
| • Issue 1176 (2026-06-08): Redcore Linux 2601, the problem with minimal system requirements, Red Hat account linked to compromised npm repositories, COSMIC to get frosted glass effect, openSUSE shows off system extension manager, Origami merges with RakuOS |
| • Issue 1175 (2026-06-01): PineTab2 with various distros, less common words of wisdom, Canonical shutting down Ubuntu's Pastebin, Murena nears 100k users, DistroWatch turns 25 |
| • Issue 1174 (2026-05-25): Solus 4.9, Linux tablets, Haiku boots on Apple M1 machines, Fedora drops Deepin packages, Mint improves Nemo performance |
| • Issue 1173 (2026-05-18): Sylve on FreeBSD, the benefit of BleachBit, Debian commits to reproducible builds, Debian publishes updated install media, Haiku introduces SMP support on ARM64 processors, Rocky Linux creates opt-in security repository, Fedora reconsiders AI tools, KDE receives generous donation |
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| • Issue 1170 (2026-04-27): ENux 5.2.1, picking a second distro, AlmaLinux expands CPU support, FreeBSD publishes Status Report, Ubuntu MATE skips 26.04 release |
| • Issue 1169 (2026-04-20): Lakka 6.1, free software and source-based distributions, FreeBSD Foundation publishes compatible laptop list, Debian holds Project Leader election, Haiku progresses ARM64 port, Mint to extend development cycle, Linux 7.0 released |
| • Issue 1168 (2026-04-13): pearOS 2026.03, EndeavourOS 2026.03.06, which distros are adopting age verification, Arch adjusts its firewall packages, Linux dropping i486 support, Red Hat extends its release cycle, Debian's APT introduces rollbacks, Redox improves its scheduler |
| • Issue 1167 (2026-04-06): Origami Linux 2026.03, answering questions for Linux newcomers, Ubuntu MATE seeking new contributors, Ubuntu software centre is expanding Deb support, FreeBSD fixes forum exploit, openSUSE 15 Leap nears its end of life |
| • Issue 1166 (2026-03-30): NetBSD jails, publishing software for Linux, Ubuntu joins Rust Foundation, Canonical plans to trim GRUB features, Peppermint works on new utilities, PINE64 shows off open hardware capabilities |
| • Issue 1165 (2026-03-23): Argent Linux 1.5.3, disk space required by Linux, Manjaro team goes on strike, AlmaLinux improves NVIDIA driver support and builds RISC-V packages, systemd introduces age tracking |
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| • Issue 1160 (2026-02-16): Noid and AgarimOS, command line tips, KDE Linux introduces delta updates, Redox OS hits development milestone, Linux Mint develops a desktop-neutral account manager, sudo developer seeks sponsorship |
| • Issue 1159 (2026-02-09): Sharing files on a network, isolating processes on Linux, LFS to focus on systemd, openSUSE polishes atomic updates, NetBSD not likely to adopt Rust code, COSMIC roadmap |
| • Issue 1158 (2026-02-02): Manjaro 26.0, fastest filesystem, postmarketOS progress report, Xfce begins developing its own Wayland window manager, Bazzite founder interviewed |
| • Issue 1157 (2026-01-26): Setting up a home server, what happened to convergence, malicious software entering the Snap store, postmarketOS automates hardware tests, KDE's login manager works with systemd only |
| • Issue 1156 (2026-01-19): Chimera Linux's new installer, using the DistroWatch Torrent Corner, new package tools for Arch, Haiku improves EFI support, Redcore streamlines branches, Synex introduces install-time ZFS options |
| • Issue 1155 (2026-01-12): MenuetOS, CDE on Sparky, iDeal OS 2025.12.07, recommended flavour of BSD, Debian seeks new Data Protection Team, Ubuntu 25.04 nears its end of life, Google limits Android source code releases, Fedora plans to replace SDDM, Budgie migrates to Wayland |
| • Issue 1154 (2026-01-05): postmarketOS 25.06/25.12, switching to Linux and educational resources, FreeBSD improving laptop support, Unix v4 available for download, new X11 server in development, CachyOS team plans server edtion |
| • Issue 1153 (2025-12-22): Best projects of 2025, is software ever truly finished?, Firefox to adopt AI components, Asahi works on improving the install experience, Mageia presents plans for version 10 |
| • Issue 1152 (2025-12-15): OpenBSD 7.8, filtering websites, Jolla working on a Linux phone, Germany saves money with Linux, Ubuntu to package AMD tools, Fedora demonstrates AI troubleshooting, Haiku packages Go language |
| • Issue 1151 (2025-12-08): FreeBSD 15.0, fun command line tricks, Canonical presents plans for Ubutnu 26.04, SparkyLinux updates CDE packages, Redox OS gets modesetting driver |
| • Issue 1150 (2025-12-01): Gnoppix 25_10, exploring if distributions matter, openSUSE updates tumbleweed's boot loader, Fedora plans better handling of broken packages, Plasma to become Wayland-only, FreeBSD publishes status report |
| • Issue 1149 (2025-11-24): MX Linux 25, why are video drivers special, systemd experiments with musl, Debian Libre Live publishes new media, Xubuntu reviews website hack |
| • Issue 1148 (2025-11-17): Zorin OS 18, deleting a file with an unusual name, NetBSD experiments with sandboxing, postmarketOS unifies its documentation, OpenBSD refines upgrades, Canonical offers 15 years of support for Ubuntu |
| • Issue 1147 (2025-11-10): Fedora 43, the size and stability of the Linux kernel, Debian introducing Rust to APT, Redox ports web engine, Kubuntu website off-line, Mint creates new troubleshooting tools, FreeBSD improves reproducible builds, Flatpak development resumes |
| • Issue 1146 (2025-11-03): StartOS 0.4.0, testing piped commands, Ubuntu Unity seeks help, Canonical offers Ubuntu credentials, Red Hat partners with NVIDIA, SUSE to bundle AI agent with SLE 16 |
| • Issue 1145 (2025-10-27): Linux Mint 7 "LMDE", advice for new Linux users, AlmaLinux to offer Btrfs, KDE launches Plasma 6.5, Fedora accepts contributions written by AI, Ubuntu 25.10 fails to install automatic updates |
| • Issue 1144 (2025-10-20): Kubuntu 25.10, creating and restoring encrypted backups, Fedora team debates AI, FSF plans free software for phones, ReactOS addresses newer drivers, Xubuntu reacts to website attack |
| • Issue 1143 (2025-10-13): openSUSE 16.0 Leap, safest source for new applications, Redox introduces performance improvements, TrueNAS Connect available for testing, Flatpaks do not work on Ubuntu 25.10, Kamarada plans to switch its base, Solus enters new epoch, Frugalware discontinued |
| • Issue 1142 (2025-10-06): Linux Kamarada 15.6, managing ZIP files with SQLite, F-Droid warns of impact of Android lockdown, Alpine moves ahead with merged /usr, Cinnamon gets a redesigned application menu |
| • Issue 1141 (2025-09-29): KDE Linux and GNOME OS, finding mobile flavours of Linux, Murena to offer phones with kill switches, Redox OS running on a smartphone, Artix drops GNOME |
| • Issue 1140 (2025-09-22): NetBSD 10.1, avoiding AI services, AlmaLinux enables CRB repository, Haiku improves disk access performance, Mageia addresses service outage, GNOME 49 released, Linux introduces multikernel support |
| • Issue 1139 (2025-09-15): EasyOS 7.0, Linux and central authority, FreeBSD running Plasma 6 on Wayland, GNOME restores X11 support temporarily, openSUSE dropping BCacheFS in new kernels |
| • Issue 1138 (2025-09-08): Shebang 25.8, LibreELEC 12.2.0, Debian GNU/Hurd 2025, the importance of software updates, AerynOS introduces package sets, postmarketOS encourages patching upstream, openSUSE extends Leap support, Debian refreshes Trixie media |
| • Issue 1137 (2025-09-01): Tribblix 0m37, malware scanners flagging Linux ISO files, KDE introduces first-run setup wizard, CalyxOS plans update prior to infrastructure overhaul, FreeBSD publishes status report |
| • Issue 1136 (2025-08-25): CalyxOS 6.8.20, distros for running containers, Arch Linux website under attack,illumos Cafe launched, CachyOS creates web dashboard for repositories |
| • Issue 1135 (2025-08-18): Debian 13, Proton, WINE, Wayland, and Wayback, Debian GNU/Hurd 2025, KDE gets advanced Liquid Glass, Haiku improves authentication tools |
| • Issue 1134 (2025-08-11): Rhino Linux 2025.3, thoughts on malware in the AUR, Fedora brings hammered websites back on-line, NetBSD reveals features for version 11, Ubuntu swaps some command line tools for 25.10, AlmaLinux improves NVIDIA support |
| • Issue 1133 (2025-08-04): Expirion Linux 6.0, running Plasma on Linux Mint, finding distros which support X11, Debian addresses 22 year old bug, FreeBSD discusses potential issues with pkgbase, CDE ported to OpenBSD, Btrfs corruption bug hitting Fedora users, more malware found in Arch User Repository |
| • Issue 1132 (2025-07-28): deepin 25, wars in the open source community, proposal to have Fedora enable Flathub repository, FreeBSD plans desktop install option, Wayback gets its first release |
| • Issue 1131 (2025-07-21): HeliumOS 10.0, settling on one distro, Mint plans new releases, Arch discovers malware in AUR, Plasma Bigscreen returns, Clear Linux discontinued |
| • Issue 1130 (2025-07-14): openSUSE MicroOS and RefreshOS, sharing aliases between computers, Bazzite makes Bazaar its default Flatpak store, Alpine plans Wayback release, Wayland and X11 benchmarked, Red Hat offers additional developer licenses, openSUSE seeks feedback from ARM users, Ubuntu 24.10 reaches the end of its life |
| • Issue 1129 (2025-07-07): GLF OS Omnislash, the worst Linux distro, Alpine introduces Wayback, Fedora drops plans to stop i686 support, AlmaLinux builds EPEL repository for older CPUs, Ubuntu dropping existing RISC-V device support, Rhino partners with UBports, PCLinuxOS recovering from website outage |
| • Issue 1128 (2025-06-30): AxOS 25.06, AlmaLinux OS 10.0, transferring Flaptak bundles to off-line computers, Ubuntu to boost Intel graphics performance, Fedora considers dropping i686 packages, SDesk switches from SELinux to AppArmor |
| • Issue 1127 (2025-06-23): LastOSLinux 2025-05-25, most unique Linux distro, Haiku stabilises, KDE publishes Plasma 6.4, Arch splits Plasma packages, Slackware infrastructure migrating |
| • Issue 1126 (2025-06-16): SDesk 2025.05.06, renewed interest in Ubuntu Touch, a BASIC device running NetBSD, Ubuntu dropping X11 GNOME session, GNOME increases dependency on systemd, Google holding back Pixel source code, Nitrux changing its desktop, EFF turns 35 |
| • Issue 1125 (2025-06-09): RHEL 10, distributions likely to survive a decade, Murena partners with more hardware makers, GNOME tests its own distro on real hardware, Redox ports GTK and X11, Mint provides fingerprint authentication |
| • Full list of all issues |
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