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1 • Debian bug reporting (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-10-22 10:56:21 GMT from Spain)
Maybe people would be more interested in reporting bugs if developers took the time to fix them AND port the fixes to the stable branch. It is not rare that a fix is discovered and included in Sid, then ported to Testing, but hey, it doesn't make it to the branch I use(d).
This is one of the main reasons I migrated to other distribution.
2 • A tame xubuntu imrovement? (by geirknappen on 2012-10-22 11:21:28 GMT from Norway)
When I read about Xubuntu 12.10, I thought the improvement over 12.04 sounded quite tame: improved offline documentation and new artwork being one of those. Maybe not all distros should have a release every 6th month, but instead take longer time to get significant upgrades.
3 • About the mobile operating systems (by Lucas Pinheiro Silva on 2012-10-22 12:35:59 GMT from Brazil)
The article about mobile operating systems is very interesting, really liked it. I was already highly interested on Firefox OS, but now I'm ever more interested on Tizen and its hybrid aproach on the native apps vs web apps matter.
4 • Less bugs in Debian (by Omari on 2012-10-22 13:09:25 GMT from United States)
Both the linked bloggers think fewer bugs is a problem; I'm not sure that's true. Lots of bugs that get reported are duplicates or are not bugs at all. Other bugs are bugs in the upstreams. In previous years people would not have known about the duplicates or known it is an upstream bug. As web search has steadily improved, and as there are more web forums and mailing lists to search (all of which are searchable with a simple Google search) I think it's quite possible that fewer bugs are reported simply because search lets people find out more information quicker, and lets them solve problems without filing bugs.
5 • 'turning off the computer using "init 0"' (by os2user on 2012-10-22 13:14:09 GMT from United States)
Ahah! An important clue in my search to find out just exactly where computer-dom turned bassackwards. So in Unix-land (surely from the 60's or 70's, then), "init" means "shutdown".
Yes, I'm more than half serious.
6 • Kubuntu upgrade (by Leo on 2012-10-22 13:17:11 GMT from United States)
I upgraded a netbook and a notebook. They are both running happily, but notebook was a scare. I used KDM before, and the upgrade replaced it by lighdm-kde. I didn't reboot right away, but re-installed KDM instead. After that, it would only boot to a dead XServer. I started booting in rescue mode, until i realized that removing KDM would let me go through. It must be some setting that is causing the grief, but boy, was that annoying. I have 17 years of experience running Linux, so I can come back from this sort of thing. But this would have meant a fresh reinstall for a "regular" user.
Otherwise, it's all running happily, no major things to report.
7 Bug reports (by Anonymous on 2012-10-22 13:33:54 GMT from United States)
Just a random bug report from debian: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=653079"You need to figure out why it isn't getting loaded automatically by udev
Ignoring the spam you get from the Open BTS, would you file a bug with these guys?
8 • ubuntu 12.10 (by walter_j on 2012-10-22 13:54:11 GMT from Canada)
I upgraded from 12.04 to 12.10 without problem. My first impression is that I like it. Who'da thunk! Problems that jarred me in earlier releases seem to have been ironed out. There was some horrendous bugs, but seem to be gone. The sidepanel looks better, now that the background colors are semi transparent. I also find the fonts used in firefox to be very crisp and readable - even with my bad eyes. I'm always messing with KDE to make things easy to read. I haven't done any serious work with it, but I'm eager to try now. In previous releases, I found it unuseable and abandoned it immediately. But with this release, I'll try it.
I'm also trying mint 13 cinnamon and find it great too. It's nice looking on my laptop - perhaps the best that I've tried on my Lenovo X301 (13 inch screen). My only sore point so far is the lack of a screen saver, but thats a gnome decision. Battery life could be better too.
9 • #6 Kubuntu upgrade (by vw72 on 2012-10-22 14:18:54 GMT from United States)
Probably a "regular" user would have stuck with the default lightdm-kde, so it wouldn't have been a problem for them.
10 • Re: #9 (by Leo on 2012-10-22 14:36:16 GMT from United States)
"Probably a "regular" user would have stuck with the default lightdm-kde, so it wouldn't have been a problem for them."
Yeah, you are absolutely right :)
Cheers
Leo
PS: I have the feeling that KDM has never been very robust. For instance, in some upgrades, the sessions have been renamed. So, if you were set for autologin, KDM would not find the session , and your X would go to some weird state. I guess I am glad we moved away from KDM!
11 • Customized Xubuntu upgrade (by ange on 2012-10-22 15:55:45 GMT from Hungary)
I upgraded a custom Xubuntu 12.04 to 12.10 and everything is perfect. Except synaptic, because source list doesn't show, so I can't change apt sources easily. And evolution-exchange removed, so my exchange mailbox is gone. No more corporate email in evolution, I must go back to davmail. And in seahorse can't change keychain passwords.Bugreports doesn't solve anything, the conclusion is don't pay for nothing.
12 • Debian bugs (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-10-22 16:01:16 GMT from United States)
I had an especially bad experience with Debian several years ago. Some packages (I don't even remember which) were broken in testing. After many months had passed, with not so much as a response to my report, I reformatted that partition, and I haven't installed it since except to see if it's improved. My experience may be unique, but maybe it's not. I concluded that reporting bugs to Debian is a waste of time.
The answer anyone gets when inquiring about bugs in Debian testing is always the same. You don't understand Debian: if you use Debian, you should be running stable. The notion that you will have large numbers of users installing Debian stable is far-fetched. Even if it is possible to run such old software (and I couldn't because my Windows coworkers had updated versions) few will want to. Debian serves little purpose today, to be honest, if only stable is usable. I know of no non-server Debian stable installations.
As just a few examples, KDE is still on the 4.4.x series, Java is still Java 6, and LyX is version 1.6.7. You won't even be able to open LyX files that your Windows-using friends send to you because they've been running version 2 for more than a year.
13 • arch linux systemd (by oldtimer2 on 2012-10-22 16:19:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
It would be good to read a review or 2 on Arch Linux based distros and systemd.
I played with systemd recently and wasn't too impressed. I could be wrong.
Maybe Distrowatch could examine the benefits of systemd and its disadvantages
14 • Debian bug reporting. Coincidence? (by Barnabyh on 2012-10-22 16:21:50 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just a thought, but isn't six years roughly the time Ubuntu has been around and been getting more popular since 2006?
15 • Qubes (by JSS on 2012-10-22 16:33:22 GMT from United States)
I've managed to install Qubes successfully before, and all I can say is unless you are hyper paranoid about security, you don't need it. Also, make sure you have intermediate skills with the time and patience to learn the OS.
16 • Systemd and Debian (by Jesse on 2012-10-22 16:46:47 GMT from Canada)
@13:
We have covered systemd here a couple of times in the past. If you go back through some previous issues you'll find some articles and discussions on systemd in the comments section.
@14: Ubuntu has been around a little longer than six years. I think Warty came out back in 2004, so it's been around at least eight.Perhaps an argument could be made that more people are moving to Ubuntu from Debian. Or, for that matter, former Debian users could be moving to other Debian-based distributions like Parsix or Mint Debian Edition and reporting bugs there. Debian has a lot of children and it could be people are submitting bug reports down stream.
17 • Debian Bug Reporting and Ubuntu 12.10 (by Bruce R on 2012-10-22 17:12:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
As already partly revealed the Debian team complacency is mis-placed, with bugs going unreported, not helped by unfriendly or faulty bug reporting systems and bureaucracy.
As to Ubuntu 12.10 it's a lot slicker than Ubuntu 12.04 which is probably down to its new kernel and drivers, but the 'it ain't broke so we'll fix it' removal of the Nvidia-295 driver and its replacement with a far worse Nvidia series is a real PITA.
If you want OverScan Correction 'wot works' with older Nidia graphics, stick with Ubuntu 12.04 and Nvidia-295 !
18 • Trinity, & Debian usage (by SilentSam on 2012-10-22 17:32:05 GMT from Canada)
Glad to see that Trinity is still going strong... I tried updating from KDE 3.5.10 to Trinity on an old Arch installation awhile back, but several issues made me revert (kioslaves not working, SuperKaramba issues, certain packages weren't included and caused conflicts etc). Given at the time it was an AUR project I took it for what it was. I'll have to give it another shot and see where we stand now. I always did like KDE's 3.5 series.
As for Debian bug reporting reflecting decreased usage, I would have to agree that is the case. As an admin I now deploy Ubuntu Server LTS instead of Debian Stable, since I often require more up to date packages, such as
VirtualBox.
19 • Debian vs. bug reports (by Microlinux on 2012-10-22 17:36:56 GMT from France)
I've filed a few bug reports for Debian, but the Debian maintainers make you jump through burning loops with that. With Debian developers, I always have this special feeling like I can't even make a casual remark about the weather, since I'm not an honorary member of the Royal Greenwich Meteorological Society.
Here's an example of a developer explaining why he won't fix a serious bug in OpenOffice:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-openoffice/2012/07/msg00012.html
Now I'm running 100 % Slackware. One chief maintainer, and bugs reported in the afternoon sometimes get fixed the next morning.
20 • Ubuntu 12.10 and Amazon (by Marti on 2012-10-22 17:50:03 GMT from Spain)
I have been using Ubuntu for ages and I really love it as it was my first Linux distro 4 years ago (actually I still have a partition with Ubuntu 12.04, despite my current favourite distro and the one I use everyday is Debian testing), and I felt really disappointed when I found out that Ubuntu 12.10 was going to be something similar to a piece of adware (by displaying Amazon shopping results everytime you look for something in the Dash).
i know that Canonical people have changed their minds and that this "feature" can be disabled easily (I think it would be much better if it was disabled by default), but I found the original "idea" so disgusting that I am not going to upgrade to Ubuntu 12.10
21 • nvidia-legacy and ubuntu-12.10 derivitaves (by RollMeAway on 2012-10-22 18:04:01 GMT from United States)
HEADS UP WARNING:
ubuntu-12.10 is the first distro I've came across that ships xorg-1.13.0.
Current nvidia-legacy drivers (nvidia-173, nvidia-96, etc) WILL NOT WORK WITH XORG-1.13.0.
This means no 3D drivers (no unity, no gnome3) on machines with legacy nvidia.
You will be stuck with nouveau, fbdev, or vesa drivers.
Why after decades of development, does xorg still release major point releases so often?
22 • Lubuntu 12.10 - No effort other than art change. (by Rick on 2012-10-22 19:05:10 GMT from United States)
Lubuntu 12.10 has the same sort of "tame" improvements like post #2 mentioned above, but also failed to fix bugs from 12.04. One that I filed after installing Lubuntu 12.04 (along with other users) is still present in the recent release. It seemed like a simple fix since other distro spin-offs, like Zorin Lite, have fixed the bugs themselves. It sure doesn't say much about the Lubuntu team when other developers are fixing their oversights. Unfortunately, the best version of Lubuntu was 11.04, which I am still running, is now "out of date". I no longer have any faith in Lubuntu as a quality distro as they once were.
23 • 21 xorg (by mandog on 2012-10-22 19:21:56 GMT from Peru)
Well arch is running 1.13.0.3 so its fairly recent but the problem is technology moves on and new graphic cards are released very fast they have to draw Aline somewhere and the recent nouveau drivers work quite well so for most its not a problem.
24 • Debian bugs? (by CHoK on 2012-10-22 19:24:26 GMT from Denmark)
This happy user has been running Debian Testing on all desktop machines for years and years. There just aren't that many bugs to report - the thing is rockbottom stable in just about any permutation.
My servers run Stable, og the newest Ubuntu LTS if I need 21st century.
25 • 24 Debian bugs? (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-10-22 19:55:33 GMT from United States)
I don't think it helps Debian to spread misinformation. Debian Testing is only rockbottom stable for a very unusual definition of stability.
26 • Dabian and Wine (by fernbap on 2012-10-22 19:59:37 GMT from Portugal)
There is one single reason why Squeeze is of no use to me: wine
Wine 1.0.21. Really? Have you cared to look how old that version is?
That is not only ridiculous but bordering on insulting.
Then i go to winehq, to no avail, since, despite it having packages to most major distros, there is nothing there for Squeeze.
I can't even use wine-unstable, since it doesn't work on Squeeze, has dependencies issues with libs i can't find in the debian repos.
Are debian developpers doing it on purpose?
27 • @ #21 (by Pierre on 2012-10-22 20:29:16 GMT from Germany)
This is why I prefer a little more tested and stable releases and why I do never upgrade or install a distro that got just releases, if I haven't tested it before.
But nouveau should be able to do the job, because if has 3D support already, so there should be no need for a proprietary nvidia driver, unless you have a GeForce 6xx Series card, this one would be simply to new for open source 3D support. But every card a little older that these just released should work with nouveau's 3D support. And if not, that's no problem, both, Gnome3 and Unity should already support 2D...
28 • Trinity DE (by Pierre on 2012-10-22 20:58:15 GMT from Germany)
I read a very interesting article some time ago: http://www.freiesmagazin.de/ftp/2011/freiesMagazin-2011-09.pdf
It's a PDF file with an article in german, named "Trinity - Desktop ohne Zukunft" in english would be named "Trinity - Desktop without future" and is about the reasons the KDE team decided to abandon the 3.5 series of KDE.
The conclusion is, that the Trinity team needs to touch very complicated parts of the desktop to address some issues for keeping the desktop vital and make it compatible and usable in the future and that even the big community of KDE decided that this would need a rewrite of important parts of KDE 3.5 which results itself in some breakages within the KDE 3.5 code and this way would need even more work and therefore a complete rewrite was more desirable than to try a transformation of the old KDE 3.5 base to a functional port to the Qt4 framework.
I know Trinity even tries to maintain Qt3 now, too, but like Debian many distributions decided to not include Qt3 anymore in future releases. So I simply question, how realistic it is for just a handful of developers to maintain such a huge environment that keeps aging more and more and which even the former developers preferred to abandon instead of putting a lot of manpower and work into that aging concept.
I really loved KDE 3.5 but some day the time has come to let go I think. I am not fully satisfied with KDE 4.x, but it has evolved and got mature over the last few years and become therefore very useable. On some of my devices I simply prefer and use Xfce 4.10 and love it because it is quite close to Gnome 2 and KDE 3.5 and maybe even combines the best of both DEs.
So, well, I really appreciate the work the Trinity developers do, but it seems to be a fight again windmills, if you understand what I want to say with that.
It's nice to see, that there still are some willing to try to keep KDE 3.5 alive, but maybe it's wasted manpower. We have a lot of more modern but still classic DEs and even more modern DEs with new concepts out there, so that it might be the fact, that there is no place or need for Trinity.
29 • Debian bug reporting (by Andy on 2012-10-22 21:00:30 GMT from Russian Federation)
I have no idea how bugs are handled elsewhere but in Debian the thing is really messy (e.g., some frank assessment from an insider: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/10/msg00328.html ), which certainly doesn't serve as a good encouragement to file anything. On the other hand, there are indeed too many moving parts to blame everything on that. It would be interesting if other projects provided similar statistics for trend comparison.
30 • Debian bug reporting. (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-10-22 21:06:08 GMT from Spain)
Anonymous Coward (using the same nick as I) wrote:
------------------------------------------
Debian serves little purpose today, to be honest, if only stable is usable.[...] Debian serves little purpose today, to be honest, if only stable is usable.
------------------------------------------
That's not the problem.
There are *lots* of users who prefer to have old software which is being maintained and is reliable enough for important tasks. This includes enterprise workstations, universities, the computer for the grandparents... these installs are designed to accomplish a reduced set of tasks and software modernity is not important as far as the machines do the two things that are demanded to them. I don't want to fix the problems in the computers of my parents because I installed some beta version without a reason.
The problem is that Debian Stable is loosing focus from the developers and users, so you end up with old software that is not so well maintained. The reliability and stability of Debian Stable is based on the assumption of bugs being removed from Testing before they make it to Stable, and the mechanisms to fix bugs that actually made it to Stable is clumsy and rusty. This means that if a given release of Stable includes too many bugs, it will be unlikely to have them fixed until next release. Knowing this, it is less attractive to report a bug.
This would be less of a problem if bugs were killed in Testing and the assumption was true. I sincerely think the repositories of Debian have grown too much to be handled by the project.
31 • Trinity and MATE (by Jesse on 2012-10-22 21:15:32 GMT from Canada)
>> "The conclusion is, that the Trinity team needs to touch very complicated parts of the desktop to address some issues for keeping the desktop vital and make it compatible and usable in the future and that even the big community of KDE decided that this would need a rewrite of important parts of KDE 3.5"
What I find interesting about this is the above statement about KDE 3.5 is it is almost exactly what the GNOME developers said about the GNOME 2 code base. However, in both cases we saw very small teams of developers come together and produce Trinity and MATE. These small teams seem able to do what the large GNOME and KDE communities claimed was impossible. Frankly, I have worked on some old, ugly code bases in my time and I suspect it's less "impossible" and more a case of "it's more fun to start fresh".
If the Trinity developers can follow MATE's example and move the Qt3 libraries into their own name space, thus allowing both Qt4 and Qt3 to work side-by-side, I think they will get more packages and be able to maintain a user base.
32 • Debian bug reporting (by sebastien on 2012-10-22 22:15:12 GMT from France)
I think Debian is to be considered more as a lab than targeting the end user. If you want to play with architecture or kernels and ask for a RaspPI or hurd talk you might have echo from Debian gurus. If you want to improve translation in a man page, you better deal with ubuntu. Once you go ubuntu-like for your desktop, (left to deal with gurus, old software and stability) you could go BSD for your server. Or stay with Ubuntu for you server as well is not a bad idea ether after all for a normal life.
33 • @ #31 (by Pierre on 2012-10-22 22:33:14 GMT from Germany)
I cannot completely agree. Both, the MATE and the Trinity teams, have not produced the MATE and Trinity Desktops, but took complete desktop and changed branding, naming and the namespaces to avoid conflicts with the forked DEs.
That is not the same like really producing a DE, because all basic parts of the 'new DEs' are simply nearly untouched Gnome 2 / KDE 3.5 code.
And if they are really able to maintain the DEs for some longer time and become accepted needs still to be proven.
To be honest, I doubt that these small projects are able to maintain such an enormous code base.
And the reason Gnome and KDE abandoned the older series is not because it is more fun to start new, but that it had taken more work to port the old code base to new frameworks instead of simply starting a complete rewrite.
The complete rewrite in fact does not mean they wouldn't have taken some working pieces out of the old base, but working around these pieces was simple less work than porting everything. It's as simple as that. And no one ever said it would be impossible to port the old code base. :)
I would be happy if MATE and Trinity would stay and give more choice to the open source community, but the question is: are they real options to Xfce, LXDE and the newer versions of KDE and Gnome?
I think they are for only a few users and again, it's questionable if that is enough for keeping these projects alive.
34 • Kubuntu 12.10 (by rich52 on 2012-10-22 22:49:30 GMT from United States)
Looks good and runs smooth. Got Nvidia driver installed and flash working. One and only complaint is that the Hplip driver doesn't work and is the same with the newest one from Sourceforge.net. The old Hplip in 12.04 work great. It's the little things that can really mess up things. . .
Rich :)
35 • The Future of Trinity and MATE (Debian as well) (by Cflow on 2012-10-23 00:35:48 GMT from United States)
One thing I noticed about both these desktops is that they were as stable as they could get prior to being forked, and that compared to their new counterparts (KDE4, Gnome 3), they contrasted quite a lot. To many, it was like their progress was "thrown away" - and they thought this progress was well worth saving. But yes - how to maintain them?
Intriguingly enough, Trinity looks like it wants to appeal to the enterprise market - Their next release will have many enterprise tools integrated. And why not? - If KDE3 was stable enough to have developers fork it, it might work.
As for MATE, I'm not sure... Right now, the fork seems to want to compete with the userbase of Gnome3 - and yet there are still other GTK2 desktops, like LXDE and XFCE, that it must also compete with as well. It's extremely dependent on its users too... I think the MATE developers should work along with XFCE and integrate some code, as they seem too similar to just compete against each other :)
As for Debian, the lack of bug reports - even with the surge of packages - probably is from the lack of _goals_ Debian has. So it want to be a "universal operating system" that is free and stable. That's vague, when many rpm distros also have package dependency tracking, and also want to be free and stable. Debian doesn't have such a clear mission like Ubuntu, Mint, or Red Hat - and its default iso's aren't as user friendly as those distros either.
But its stable... What happens? People that _do_ have clear goals builds a distro of of Debian with specific goals, and users and developers know the type of bugs they need to scout out - and perhaps none of them are really reported to Debian itself. In such, I don't think Debian lacks users, but has lower user involvement.
36 • Corrections on runlevels in Ubuntu and Slackware (by TobiSGD on 2012-10-23 00:41:00 GMT from Germany)
"We see a touch of that now where Upstart's default runlevel for a multiuser system is "2""
This is not related to Upstart at all and has not changed since Ubuntu exists. It is in fact simply a heritage of Debian, which uses runlevel 2 by default for a very long time already.
"while Slackware typically boots into runlevel 3 or 5, depending on its role."
Slackware uses runlevel 3 by default (multiuser, CLI) and runlevel 4 for multiuser GUI.
37 • @25 (by CHoK on 2012-10-23 04:55:02 GMT from Denmark)
"I don't think it helps Debian to spread misinformation. Debian Testing is only rockbottom stable for a very unusual definition of stability."
Misinformation? I am reporting six years untroubled living with Debian Testing. You say I'm lying?
38 • Slackware runlevel (by zykoda on 2012-10-23 06:11:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Slackware runlevel 5 is the same as runlevel 3 ( see /etc/inittab). Runlevel 3 was the default in my recent desktop Slackware 14 64 bit installation. This is slightly unusual as I find runlevel 5 is, overall, more common as default. But YMMV.
39 • Ubuntu QQ (by Peter on 2012-10-23 08:58:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've used QQ, dual-booting with OSX on iMac, through it's dev cycle, but it never got adequate support on iMac. My AMD Radeon 4670 graphics runs slow and hot on Unity (definitely better on KDE), plus I have no kernel support for resume after suspend - big fail on any machine. I'm now trying openSUSE (Tumbleweed), with KDE, in virtualbox on super-efficient OSX. So far it's going well.
40 • Debian is great (by ix_ on 2012-10-23 09:04:17 GMT from Romania)
I've been using Debian for a long time and it's great. I'm usually running stable, but right now I'm on testing. The decreasing number of bug reports may be caused by Ubuntu, as someone has pointed out, but developers often work on both distributions. Anyway, I don't think it matters much, because bugs are being fixed and Debian is very stable, although it may be out of date.
41 • Debian (by Nick on 2012-10-23 10:05:27 GMT from Greece)
"This would be less of a problem if bugs were killed in Testing and the assumption was true. I sincerely think the repositories of Debian have grown too much to be handled by the project."
True, if you add all the architectures on top of that Debian is nowhere near usable for the vast majority of users out there.
"I think Debian is to be considered more as a lab than targeting the end user."
Calling Debian a lab is pretty accurate. Its very cumbersome and slow to be considered usable but it serves the community well by maintaining various pieces of software & it serves as a basis for Ubuntu.
Even Slackware is more relevant as a distribution than Debian today, mostly due to its size and flexibility, as well as the shorter release cycles. Also demonstrated by comment #19 from Microlinux.
Fact is that no modern sysadmin will ever pick Debian over Ubuntu.
Debian needs to change something. The CUT idea was somewhat decent, but afaik didnt advance much.
42 • Ubuntu 12.10 (by silent on 2012-10-23 10:19:55 GMT from Hungary)
I used Ubuntu 12.04 with Mate. No changes after the upgrade to 12.10 whatsoever. It feels like good old times. I don't get this problem with Dash search and Amazon. First what is Dash? I don't use it, must be something in Unity. What on earth is that good for? But anyway if somebody uses Unity and Dash, Amazon results can be switched off. So there are lots of choices. I presume Ubuntu can make some money with that and hopefully they will spend it on some useful projects. That way Amazon supports Linux development So why not?
43 • Big version change in Xubuntu (by ange on 2012-10-23 10:20:51 GMT from Hungary)
@2 It's a significant update from Xfce 4.8 to 4.10!
The xfce-dev PPA for Ubuntu 12.04 with Xfce 4.10 doesn't updated anymore. But think twice before upgrade because it's half-baked now.
44 • RE:41, 32 (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-10-23 13:14:28 GMT from Spain)
Nick wrote:
-----------------------------------------
Fact is that no modern sysadmin will ever pick Debian over Ubuntu.
-----------------------------------------
I know of lots of moderns sysadmins that chose Debian over Ubuntu for carefully considered reasons, so I think that statement is somehow exaggerated. Note than I am not a Debian or Ubuntu user, so this distro war would mean nothing to me :-D
Big players seem to use Red Hat or some clone because of support and supposed reliability. Small players use what they like or consider adequate.
Sebastien wrote:
-------------------------------------------
I think Debian is to be considered more as a lab than targeting the end user.
-------------------------------------------
Read above :-D Debian is usable by itself. Some server vendors will set the server for you with Debian (and I mean High end Servers). True that some say it would be better for the users to get a derivate that has been already modified to fit your specific needs... but fact is that you could turn Debian into one of the 95% of its derivates in five minutes. Most times you are considering the installation of a Debian derivate, you could use Debian itself and go no wrong at all.
45 • @28 - Trinity/RazorQT (by GrzegorzW on 2012-10-23 13:18:47 GMT from United States)
I totally agree with @28.
I have used KDE3.5 for long time running Debian lenny in time of early KDE4 versions. But finally I found KDE 4.5 good enough to switch to. I just want to add remark that a lot of applications ware already ported to Qt4 and KDE4 and it was not only simple ports but also many new features added. From the other side I tried Trinity 3.5.12 couple months ago and found that KDE4 and Qt4 applications looks very ugly on Trinity. And now Qt/KDE5 is comming making things even worse.
I think better approach for Trinity developers would be to join Razor Qt project and port there some nice old KDE features. If let say Razor would have such excellent session management (ability to run/restore all apps to the state they was in when shutting down) as KDE has, I would consider it on some of my installations.
46 • Trinity and MATE (by Jesse on 2012-10-23 13:22:21 GMT from Canada)
>> "And if they are really able to maintain the DEs for some longer time and become accepted needs still to be proven."
Trinity has been ongoing for about four years now. The small team has successfully kept Qt3 and the KDE 3.5 branch going over multiple releases and fixed hundreds of bugs. How long do they have to keep going to be considered proven?
>> "This is not related to Upstart at all and has not changed since Ubuntu exists. It is in fact simply a heritage of Debian, which uses runlevel 2 by default for a very long time already."
That's quite beside the point. What I was saying was different systems use different runlevel definitions. It's not safe to assume one runlevel number will produce the same result across distributions.
47 • @Anonymous Coward #44 (by greg on 2012-10-23 14:21:21 GMT from Slovenia)
i believe the main talk from previous post was aimed at desktop version of the OS. is it usable or not?
i have it on old notebook and to just surf the web and do some writing in libre it works ok. wouldn't use it on main mashcine. the porgramms are too old and i already had osme dependecy issues (ehm. hell) when i needed a newer version of the programme due to some functions that i required. they are not always easy to resolve...
48 • Debian (by claudecat on 2012-10-23 15:28:44 GMT from United States)
The concept of Debian as a giant software lab is more true than not, but that is not to say that it's not quite usable as a desktop system. I keep installs of stable, testing and sid, and all are no less usable than any other distro. In fact, with rare exceptions, they are all remarkably stable - and even stable can be made more current with some repo juggling. To imply that Debian is not a viable desktop choice is disingenuous at best.
49 • Ubuntu (by David McCann on 2012-10-23 15:34:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
One thing I've noticed about Ubunbtu is how choosy it can be about hardware. If you have a recent computer from a major manufacturer, Ubuntu will probably be fine. But...
12.04 came out with a bug which caused the installer to crash on certain computers, which necessitated the release of 12.04.1.
12.10 has a problem with Xorg on certain computers. I've found it in Xubuntu and Kubuntu this week, and I see someone else has too.
I suspect the Ubuntu community aren't great ones for testing the alpha and beta releases! I'll stick to CentOS.
50 • @33 (by bornagainpenguin on 2012-10-23 19:44:16 GMT from United States)
I think a lot of people would have been happier if the GNOME 3 developers would have forked and renamed their new effort instead of trading off the goodwill of GNOME 2.xx. As it stands, the rewrite pretends to be an evolution of something users were already fond of or familiar with when it is in actuality a new and different thing. Even there, I think people would have had less trouble if the developers hadn't gone out of their way to change the frameworks in such a way to break anyone trying to continue GNOME 2.xx without having to rename everything...
I still get confused when I type "gksu gedit" catch myself and then have to grind my mental gears while my brain reminds me that the new command is "gksu pluma" now. Same deal with Nautilus and Caja. Not enough to make me give up on MATE--just enough to ensure I'll have bad feelings with both MATE **AND** GNOME 3.0 going forward for some time ahead of me.
There's also a bit of bait and switch feel to the changes of GNOME 3, because it is so radically different. Nothing is where I expect it to be. All that muscle memory is lost and useless when I go to do something now and the desktop suddenly zooms on me.
I don't know--I remember how upset the KDE users were going from 3.5.x to 4.0--I don't remember if there was a similar outcry of GNOME 1.x users moving to 2.0 Was there? I was still in the flirtation stages with Linux in those days and since I used SuSE and a cheap copy of Slackware bundled with a book I don't know.
--bornagainpenguin
51 • @46 • Trinity and MATE (by Jesse) (by Pierre on 2012-10-23 20:49:57 GMT from Germany)
>> Trinity has been ongoing for about four years now. The small team has successfully kept Qt3 and the KDE 3.5 branch going over multiple releases and fixed hundreds of bugs. How long do they have to keep going to be considered proven?
Well, yes, 4 years where they only managed to fix a few bugs. But they did not manage to address even one central problems.
Examples?
1) KDE 3.5 and therefore Trinity are based on HAL, which got discontinued and will get no fixes or anything anymore. In the nearer future distros will start to not include HAL anymore and maybe even not incude it in their repos. So what? Does Trinity want to start maintaining HAL from there on, too?
You see what's the problem and why I don't see these 4 years as a prove?
The work becomes more and more and not less and they will have to get the transition done or start to maintain even more old libaries. Where is that to end?
2) Most userland software got ported or even rewritten for KDE4.x / Qt4.x and the old Qt3-based apps got abandoned. To have all the apps most people need and are using one would have to run apps based on at least 2 different frameworks if not even up to 4 frameworks, messing up the system and looking damn ugly under Trinity.
And these 2 points are not all, I could even continue to name facts that simply show that Trinity's days are counted...
It's a workload which that few developers are not able to handle. That's all I say.
52 • Took Ubuntu 12.10 for a live spin (by John Dough on 2012-10-23 21:41:57 GMT from Canada)
Compared to my recent spin of Mageia, this (posting this from live Ubuntu) isn't too bad except for the bizzare GUI, I cut my teeth on WinDOHS! 95, you can still see the influence in the way I set up my HDD install of Kubuntu 12.04. Unlike Mageia, I am able to mount my 4 HDD Raid 0, low and behold, I also mounted a floppy, with no pre-configuring, this is amazing since a kazillion 'buntu versions ago, I wasn't able to do much at all (including multimedia, etc), functionality has improved substantially, but that is not enough to get me to give up my Kubuntu, KDE is da bomb, this GUI is weird (I know, I already said that, lol) and old dogs like me hate learning new 'tricks' (aka GUIs). I do have a kudos for the Ubuntu team, it is quite intuitive, asking for installs during certain dialogues, etc, a pleasant change from hours of Googling to solve a problem. Where is the screensaver?! And the occasional nag screen, blech. Another thing I noticed, the GUI is waaaaaaaaaay too 'streamlined', if you are used to having 'File Edit View', etc, forget it, and practically non-existent right-click shortcuts, etc, yet another blech, lol.
53 • @12 - Debian stable (by Omari on 2012-10-23 22:09:06 GMT from United States)
"Debian serves little purpose today, to be honest, if only stable is usable. I know of no non-server Debian stable installations."
All three of my desktop machines run Debian stable, with a few backports. Seems to me that a common chain of logic is "Debian stable is too old for me; therefore, it is worthless and surely nobody uses it." I don't care about the latest KDE or Java and backports meet my needs for the few things in stable that are too old for me.
54 • Snowlinux3.1/Debian7 review (by Roland on 2012-10-23 22:37:46 GMT from United States)
This liveCD is gorgeous and works fine. But after install the box had no DNS, despite setup using XFCE's network GUI. Fixed by hand-creating /etc/resolv.conf. Also, /etc/apt/sources.d/debian pointed to a German mirror. Debian normally chooses a mirror that's close to you--what happened there? Finally, the box could not ping itself or serve webpages to itself, even though other boxes could do that--JustPlainWeird! Turns out the install did not configure the loopback interface, 'lo'. I have installed lots of ISOs and never seen that problem before. Debian & derivatives need work.
55 • Debian as a Test Platform (by Peter Besenbruch on 2012-10-24 05:51:59 GMT from United States)
Debian Testing has replaced an Ubuntu Lucid installation. The Lucid installation was fine, and fairly stable. Debian Testing at this point in the cycle is more so. Two netbooks and a desktop run Debian Stable. They simply don't malfunction. As a result, when it came time to get a Zareason machine for my son's college graduation. It came with Debian Testing.
The Debian folks produce a better system by far than Canonical. Other pluses: Debian doesn't spy on you, or push paid services. Debian is one of the distros that embody the free software ideal.
56 • @54 Snowlinux (by Peter Besenbruch on 2012-10-24 06:00:39 GMT from United States)
Snowlinux is not Debian. The bug you mention (no DNS or loopback) is not present in Debian. I have encountered issues with Ubuntu (another Debian derivative), but not the ones you mention.
57 • reply to 49 (by greg on 2012-10-24 06:36:51 GMT from Slovenia)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
49 • Ubuntu (by David McCann)
"12.04 came out with a bug which caused the installer to crash on certain computers, which necessitated the release of 12.04.1."
the 12.04.1 is a regular sacheduled release of LTS image that includes all updates to that date. That way production maschines can use this "SP1¸" for install instead of base image and then wait for all updates that were released after April 2012.
Soon the 12.04.2 will be out.
58 • re #51 Trinity's days (by gnomic on 2012-10-24 09:37:42 GMT from New Zealand)
It's true Trinity's days are numbered. But if the guys (and gals perhaps) are having fun, let them carry on. In the end the market will decide. The only place I see Trinity in action is with Porteus where it doesn't present me with any undue problems for the present. As a celebrated economist said "In the long run we are all dead", and the brief history of computing is littered with discontinued and failed experiments, not to mention the remnants of obsolete systems.
59 • Debian (by Koroshiya Itchy on 2012-10-24 09:50:07 GMT from Belgium)
I have been using Debian for years both in laptops and workstations and I am quite happy with it. I use all branches (Stable, Testing and Sid derivatives) depending on my needs.
As somebody pointed out: Transforming Debian into a more "user-friendly" operating system is a matter of minutes. I have done that for myself several times and also for my wife, my mom and my mother-in-law. And they are all running their systems (two laptops and one desktop) with no complaints.
Is Debian Stable dated? Well, at the end of its life cycle it is (right now). In any case, it is as dated as it is any stability-oriented distro such as RHEL towards the end of its life cycle. At the beginning it is quite current.
It is Debian Testing stable? Well, after freezing (right now), it tends to be rock-solid. At the beginning (when it is more Sid-like), not necessarily. But, if you are careful enough, you can even run Sid (unstable) without experiencing severe headaches.
Is the community helpful? It is definitively NOT the most helpful in the Linux ecosystem. Do bugs get fixed? Critical system bugs do get fixed. Application bugs..., well, there are quite a few and sometimes they do not get fixed. Is it useless reporting a bug? Most of the time, unfortunately, it is.
However, let's keep in mind, Debian is always on the top 10 of the Distrowatch ranking (for whatever it means), more often than not on the top 5. There must be a reason for that... Of course, a lot of things can be improved, but the fact is that, with all its flaws, Debian is one of the best and most popular distros out there and the basis for the 2 most popular distros ever (Ubuntu and Mint).
60 • @51 KDE 3.5.10 (by cba on 2012-10-24 14:29:08 GMT from Germany)
IMO things are a little different.
1.) The dependency on hal is not something that cannnot be fixed. openSUSE's KDE 3.5.10 maintainer llya Chernykh posted this about a KDE 3 udisks2 backend:
http://lizards.opensuse.org/2012/06/02/kde3-gets-udisks2-backend/
2.) I agree with you with regard to the obsolete status of qt3 and qt3 apps. But IMO the system is not messed up as almost every KDE3 application is installed to /opt and uses a namespace which is different to that used by KDE4. So KDE3 and KDE4 and its respective applications can coexist without any problem. This is true for openSUSE's KDE 3.5.10 e.g. in openSUSE 11.4, 12.1 and 12.2. I cannot say much about Trinity as I have never used it.
61 • 42 (by Patrick on 2012-10-24 14:42:23 GMT from United States)
"""But anyway if somebody uses Unity and Dash, Amazon results can be switched off. So there are lots of choices. I presume Ubuntu can make some money with that and hopefully they will spend it on some useful projects. That way Amazon supports Linux development So why not?"""
Because there seem to be many Linux users who think that open source developers should provide them with high quality software for free, and above and beyond that, that it is evil for developers to try and make money in any other way too, even if they can still get the software for free. I can't explain it any further than that, because I really don't get this kind of thinking, but it seems to be prevalent.
62 • Debian bugs (by Jesse on 2012-10-24 20:32:30 GMT from Canada)
>> "Do bugs get fixed? Critical system bugs do get fixed. Application bugs..., well, there are quite a few and sometimes they do not get fixed. Is it useless reporting a bug? Most of the time, unfortunately, it is."
I think this depends a lot on which package a person is looking at. There are around, what, 1,000 Debian Developers and Packagers? That's a lot of people and, as with any group, there will be helpful ones and unhelpful ones too. I've seen some terrible responses or even complete lack of responses from some developers. Others are amazingly pleasant and helpful. I've worked with a handful of Debian devs who are really great guys.
Some of the bug fixing problems also reflect upstream attitudes. There are developers who will work directly with distributions to get bugs fixed. Others ignore distro specific errors and, with some pieces of niche software, it's difficult to get in there and fix things without the help of upstream.
I work on a few small programs which are included in Debian and I'm subscribes to their bug trackers (and by proxy the Ubuntu Launchpad tracker) so any bug reports coming into Debian regarding my software show up in my inbox. It helps me fix things and I like to think it makes life easier for both the Debian people and the end users. I wish more developers monitored and responded to bugs coming into major down stream projects like Debian.
63 • @61 and the "Seeming" sense of Entitlement (by Peter Besenbruch on 2012-10-24 20:33:55 GMT from United States)
I left Windows for two reasons: Windows XP began implementing hardware based copy protection, which meant that using an uncracked (i.e., a "legitimate") copy could become something of a pain. Second, Windows did a lot of phoning home. Debian does some phoning home, too, but it's an opt in type of thing.
I have no issue with Ubuntu making money by selling services, or asking for donations. I object to them including what is basically spyware with their distribution. Yes, I can disable, or uninstall it, but frankly, making the Amazon lens an opt out "feature" represents a line crossed for me. That's a fairly easy thing to explain.
It would be very easy to hit the "Upgrade" button to go from Lucid to Precise. Given the direction that Canonical is going, I thought it better to spend the extra time to install Debian and rebuild my systems. Money has nothing to do with it. I have paid for Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake, and Libranet. I have also donated to Debian and other software projects.
The issue isn't the money, it's the spyware.
64 • Trinity (by kde 3.5 on 2012-10-25 04:59:44 GMT from India)
It really a good initiative for kde 3.5 lover , I still miss opensuse 10.2 which was the best distro I tried yet
65 • @63 (by cba on 2012-10-25 13:15:27 GMT from Germany)
Another way could be to prolong LTS support of Ubuntu 10.04 on your own, e.g. until 2015. As Canoncial still provides updates for the base software (kernel, glibc and so on) for this time frame, you and other people could concentrate on Gnome2, Xfce and LXDE, for instance. This is not impossible, because the backporting of security fixes from RHEL's Gnome2 implementations is not so difficult. "Ubuntu Forever" (same version)! :-)
66 • double standard (by Nate Watson on 2012-10-25 17:30:20 GMT from United States)
While a lot of people are complaining about the inclusion of Amazon results in the Ubuntu search results, claiming that this is a violation of open-source software; just a reminder:
Mozilla, the makers of Firefox, performs the same business practice by including Amazon as an included search provider, making Google the default, etc. for money; and everyone seems to be fine with it! Google does something similar with Chrome.
So why is Ubuntu being held to a different standard? It's an open source project which happens to make money via an included service that can be easily removed.
Ubuntu is being held to a double standard.
67 • Adapteva Parallella (by Patrick on 2012-10-25 17:35:48 GMT from United States)
This goes more along with the Linux on ARM article a few weeks back, but is anyone else here supporting the Adapteva Parallella on Kickstarter? It is an effort to produce a $99 credit-card sized board that runs Linux and has 2 ARM Cortex-A9 cores, 1GB of memory and, best of all, a fully open and accessible 16-core parallel accelerator that can be programmed in full blown C/C++!
Maybe at first it sounds like yet another Raspberry Pi-like system, but I think the offer of having completely open access to the 16 accelerator cores is a HUGE difference here.
The Raspberry Pi foundation is (rightfully IMHO) receiving some flack at the moment for making a big deal about Broadcom supposedly making their GPU drivers available as open source, while in reality all that is open sourced is a thin shim for making OpenGL calls to the closed GPU firmware. The Parallella approach on the other hand is open from top to bottom.
Anyway, if you're interested in a low cost, low power and completely open ARM system, head over to Kickstarter (http://kck.st/UGQjG3) and support their effort! They still need about $220000 over the next two days to get funded. It seems like a very worthwhile effort to me. It isn't often that there is an opportunity to support a potential game changer like this when it comes to having open and fully documented access to our hardware. Your support (or lack of it) can make this happen (or not).
68 • @66 (by Patrick on 2012-10-25 17:46:28 GMT from United States)
Agreed. Calling this feature spyware is silly. You can bet on it that most of those complaining about it happily buy stuff from Amazon, and use the search box in their browser all the time, feeding money to Google, Firefox, Amazon, etc. But when Ubuntu, one of the few companies actively supporting standard GNU/Linux for home use, want to get a little piece of the pie by providing this convenient feature, a feature that users are free to use or not, it is suddenly a horrible thing.
Nobody made such a racket when Linux Mint decided to switch their Firefox default search engine to one that shares revenue with them?
69 • Not a double standard (by Jesse on 2012-10-25 18:05:33 GMT from Canada)
>> "Mozilla, the makers of Firefox, performs the same business practice by including Amazon as an included search provider, making Google the default, etc. for money; and everyone seems to be fine with it! Google does something similar with Chrome.
So why is Ubuntu being held to a different standard? It's an open source project which happens to make money via an included service that can be easily removed."
These are two quite different circumstances. When you open Firefox, for example, and type a search which goes to Google, it is very obvious your key words are being transmitted to Google (and probably only Google) and you are specifically trying to use that service. It is entirely opt-in because you have to launch the browser and send out the search query. Plus, Google only gets the key words you send them using that text entry field.
Ubuntu's lens software collects your search terms and keystrokes without you launching an application, without any opt-in and sends that data (along with your IP address) to multiple third-parties. (If you read their legal notice you will find they send your results to Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, the BBC and others). this happens in result to searches you are trying to perform locally, not information you want on the web.
There are two important differences here. One is that the search bar in Firefox is obviously working in the context of the web and, because it requires launching a program, it's effectively opt-in. The Lens requires opt-out and hijacks searches made locally, which people may not realize are being transmitted to external parties.
An operating system should not transmit data to third parties, not without the user opting in for that function. Doing otherwise is a security bug. That is why the Dash is labeled spyware, because the user isn't opting in for it and it works below the application level.
70 • @69 (by Patrick on 2012-10-25 20:40:54 GMT from United States)
So there is a double standard: one for applications and one for "below the application level". Of course, one could consider the dash an application, and with the ever closer integration of web services, that line becomes vague.
71 • Re: #70 - Double standards (by Anon on 2012-10-25 21:35:06 GMT from Norway)
Patrick wrote: "So there is a double standard: one for applications and one for "below the application level". Of course, one could consider the dash an application, and with the ever closer integration of web services, that line becomes vague."
Those are not a "double standard", but two very different things - both in principle and practice - although they do have one thing in common, namely spying. Of course one might consider the dash an application, but the key is how easy it is to opt out of using it, not to mention how obvious it is for every user to realize what it is in fact doing. In short: how well does Canonical inform the average user about the implications of using the dash? Given the nature of the beast, I will guess they're rather encouraging its use.
I agree that the line between public and private data is becoming blurred, for many different reasons, but that is precisely why we should be alert and at least not recommend or excuse intentional abuse. Personally, I have given up on both Canonical and Google. For web searches I use Startpage, which promises not record my IP-address.
72 • Re: #69 spyware (by silent on 2012-10-26 09:29:35 GMT from Europe)
So you are never going to use smartphones because any of them may contain software that could be considered spyware? Or just to be safe after the News Corporation international phone-hacking scandal in Great Britain one should not use a cell phone at all? And are web search engines not spyware in that sense? How are the displayed ads selected? Do you think that sensitive requests (especially those related to terrorism, weapons) are not shared with criminal and intelligence agencies, including your IP adress, etc? In some countries (eg HADOPI or Creation and Internet law in France) torrent usage is monitored, even if you only share strictly FSF software.
73 • Debian bugs - an observation (by Shankar on 2012-10-26 10:05:02 GMT from India)
Just an observation for users, like me, who use pen drive based persistent systems. I have been using such a system for seven years as my workhorse. I tried all kinds of distros. The only ones that I could find that work well, are easy to install, and are completely stable and usable in such a configuration are Puppy and Debian Live. Debian Live has the additional advantage of being massively configurable. I use Wheezy, and while of course YMMV, for me it has been extremely stable, and I have received very good responses on the handful of bugs I have had to report.
74 • Tainting GNU/Linux (by Ika on 2012-10-26 11:34:47 GMT from Spain)
Hello!
First of all congratulations for for your great job here in DistroWatch.
Second, please excuse my english. I don't speak it on a high level (rather low).
I have more than an year tainting GNU/Linux in several flavors. I focused in the "mother" distros, the independents, not in "based on" distros. I'm spaking about installing, not about trying live CD/DVD/USB. Two exceptions was Linux Mint and Sabayon. Ok, Mageia and PCLinuxOS were forked from Mandriva, but now are quoted like independent. I didn't try yet Red Hat, Gentoo, Arch and Slackware. In this moment, because I'm yet a newbie, I'm afraid to touch Gentoo, though not Arch, I'll see when I have some time to spend in installing it. Afraid a little bit for the text mode, but... Red Hat... hmmm..., I don't know... I'll see.
With Slackware no problems in installing it, rebooting I found dual-boot Win7-Slackware ok, but what happens is that entering Slackware I don't know the following step(s) for booting the sistem. The text mode ask me for the password, I typed it, intro, and... nothing. I reintalled the sistem, this time without a root password, but the same thing: it asks me for a password, but I haven' one. So, not knowing what to do, I removed it and dicidet to test the new releases of Sabayon, Linux Mint and, now, Mageia. In this tainting period, when (after many live trials) I decided a first installatio of an OS, it was PCLinuxOS. And, (like a bee flying from a flower to another)after trying other OS's, allways I come back to this system.
Sabayon, yes, is a Gentoo, but is little bit unstable and I don't know how to handle the repos and install packages.
Here is speaking about Debian. I tried it too but after installing it no way to boot Windows because in don't appear in the booting list, though at installing it appears and, naturaly,I salected it.
Now I'm with Mageia 2, but is not very convincent. After personalizing and handling a couple of days installing and uninstalling packages, the system turns very unstable. Maybe I'll coment these things I encountered in a future revew about Mageia, if it will be.
Btw, someone will help me what to do to start Slackware? I'm disposed to turn trying it.
75 • "Starting" Slackware (by Anonimous Coward on 2012-10-26 12:13:05 GMT from Spain)
"Btw, someone will help me what to do to start Slackware? I'm disposed to turn trying it."
Log in as root user (that is, when the text mode displays the login text, you type "root", then the password for the "root" user).
Type "startx". You are done.
Head to the Slackbook or the Slackware documentation project in case of other doubts.
76 • Spyware? (by Anonymous on 2012-10-26 12:14:48 GMT from United States)
#69 said, "That is why the Dash is labeled spyware".
I'm just curious as to what organization, that can be verified, has labeled the Dash as spyware. No personal opinions or completing distro comments please.
77 • Double standard (by Jesse on 2012-10-26 12:37:40 GMT from Canada)
>> "So there is a double standard: one for applications and one for "below the application level". Of course, one could consider the dash an application, and with the ever closer integration of web services, that line becomes vague."
I notice you completely skipped over the parts of my post where I pointed out the method of accessing and the opt-in vs opt-out points. Your argument seems to rely on the idea that both pieces of software record keyword searches, therefore they are the same, but that ignores the context in which these things happen.
Consider this, please. Let's say you use Dropbox. You have to sign in to an account and Dropbox only syncs files you place in a specific folder to its servers. That's fine. Now imagine your computer comes with Dropbox already enabled and, without signing in, the client syncs all of your documents to its servers. Some people might find that convenient, some might say "Well, in both cases its syncing files, so what's the problem?" Most of us would consider that sort of behaviour a security issue. Context is important.
78 • 75 • "Starting" Slackware (by Anonimous Coward) (by Ika on 2012-10-26 12:43:14 GMT from Spain)
Thanks AC. Right today I'll try it. See it's worth leaving my favorite PCLOS.
79 • Linux Lite (by Herbert Thornton on 2012-10-26 21:34:45 GMT from Canada)
I've just tried Linux Lite. It looks like an interesting version but I've found that although I select 'automatic login' while installing, it doesn't log in automatically. That (to me) is extremely irritating.
80 • Linux Lite live spin (by John Dough on 2012-10-27 02:49:59 GMT from Canada)
Wow, seriously lacking some settings, something as simple as locale or setting the clock to the correct time. Recognized my hardware fine, pretty snappy for a 32-bit, but for the iso size, way too simplistic. Yeah, I know, no plans for a 64-bit, but that sure would be nice.
81 • Debian (by Demosthenese on 2012-10-27 05:13:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
A few comments on issues raised here.
Bug-reporting:
The process of submitting a bug report couldn't be easier - there's an app for it. Fill in the form and send. Expect an email reply from the maintainer. I've submitted a few and had responses ranging from confirming the bug and forwarding it upstream to explaining why I was an idiot - in all cases the maintainer has been correct in their assessment.
Bugs reported against stable are unlikely to be fixed if they don't relate to issues such as security or data loss - stable means stable as in unchanging! Application bugs are better reported against testing or unstable.
Stability:
Yes, testing and unstable can be rock solid - but they are not 'stable' by Debian's definition. They change. Daily.
Goals:
Debian has a published Social Contract http://www.debian.org/social_contract
It's goals could not be more clearly stated - unless you are a fan of those pointless 'mission statements' that seem increasingly popular.
82 • 78 - why not use both? (by Reticent on 2012-10-27 06:39:55 GMT from United States)
There may be challenges with bootmanager and partitioning, but doesn't it make more sense to keep what works while trying what may be better?
83 • can't get into Linux Lite (by Ted on 2012-10-27 13:53:21 GMT from United States)
Linux Lite on bootup wants a User name and a Password, neither of which is provided to the live CD user! After trying all the common ones that distros usually want, I gave up. I couldn't get in to see and try out Linux Lite! Why did they put a username/password there anyway with no clue as to what it is at boot up on a live cd?!
Ted
84 • @83 Linux Lite's username and pw (by John Dough on 2012-10-27 14:29:50 GMT from Canada)
I don't know about you but I read up on a distro before downloading and burning, it was widely made known on the site and a text file accompanying the iso (which also had the md5 sum in it, I never burn unless the md5 matches, I won't even download if I can't find the md5) the username is root, and no pw, just keep hitting enter (for me it was twice) after typing in root (lowercase) until it starts going to the 'desktop'. Glad I could help. ;-)
85 • @83/Ted...I do agree (by John Dough on 2012-10-27 14:35:38 GMT from Canada)
That is a little crazy (the root/pw thing, they could have wrote a script to auto enter a user and pw, then the tester would just hit the enter key) for a distro that wants to be simple and newbie friendly, what I found a little weird too, was the install extras in the programs menu, I tried out the install restricted extras, it opened a TERMINAL which required DOS like navigation (tab, etc), things like that SCARE newbies, lol. ;-)
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| • Issue 1089 (2024-09-23): Expirion 6.0, openKylin 2.0, managing configuration files, the future of Linux development, fixing bugs in Haiku, Slackware packages dracut |
| • Issue 1088 (2024-09-16): PorteuX 1.6, migrating from Windows 10 to which Linux distro, making NetBSD immutable, AlmaLinux offers hardware certification, Mint updates old APT tools |
| • Issue 1087 (2024-09-09): COSMIC desktop, running cron jobs at variable times, UBports highlights new apps, HardenedBSD offers work around for FreeBSD change, Debian considers how to cull old packages, systemd ported to musl |
| • Issue 1086 (2024-09-02): Vanilla OS 2, command line tips for simple tasks, FreeBSD receives investment from STF, openSUSE Tumbleweed update can break network connections, Debian refreshes media |
| • Issue 1085 (2024-08-26): Nobara 40, OpenMandriva 24.07 "ROME", distros which include source code, FreeBSD publishes quarterly report, Microsoft updates breaks Linux in dual-boot environments |
| • Issue 1084 (2024-08-19): Liya 2.0, dual boot with encryption, Haiku introduces performance improvements, Gentoo dropping IA-64, Redcore merges major upgrade |
| • Issue 1083 (2024-08-12): TrueNAS 24.04.2 "SCALE", Linux distros for smartphones, Redox OS introduces web server, PipeWire exposes battery drain on Linux, Canonical updates kernel version policy |
| • Issue 1082 (2024-08-05): Linux Mint 22, taking snapshots of UFS on FreeBSD, openSUSE updates Tumbleweed and Aeon, Debian creates Tiny QA Tasks, Manjaro testing immutable images |
| • Issue 1081 (2024-07-29): SysLinuxOS 12.4, OpenBSD gain hardware acceleration, Slackware changes kernel naming, Mint publishes upgrade instructions |
| • Issue 1080 (2024-07-22): Running GNU/Linux on Android with Andronix, protecting network services, Solus dropping AppArmor and Snap, openSUSE Aeon Desktop gaining full disk encryption, SUSE asks openSUSE to change its branding |
| • Issue 1079 (2024-07-15): Ubuntu Core 24, hiding files on Linux, Fedora dropping X11 packages on Workstation, Red Hat phasing out GRUB, new OpenSSH vulnerability, FreeBSD speeds up release cycle, UBports testing new first-run wizard |
| • Issue 1078 (2024-07-08): Changing init software, server machines running desktop environments, OpenSSH vulnerability patched, Peppermint launches new edition, HardenedBSD updates ports |
| • Issue 1077 (2024-07-01): The Unity and Lomiri interfaces, different distros for different tasks, Ubuntu plans to run Wayland on NVIDIA cards, openSUSE updates Leap Micro, Debian releases refreshed media, UBports gaining contact synchronisation, FreeDOS celebrates its 30th anniversary |
| • Issue 1076 (2024-06-24): openSUSE 15.6, what makes Linux unique, SUSE Liberty Linux to support CentOS Linux 7, SLE receives 19 years of support, openSUSE testing Leap Micro edition |
| • Issue 1075 (2024-06-17): Redox OS, X11 and Wayland on the BSDs, AlmaLinux releases Pi build, Canonical announces RISC-V laptop with Ubuntu, key changes in systemd |
| • Issue 1074 (2024-06-10): Endless OS 6.0.0, distros with init diversity, Mint to filter unverified Flatpaks, Debian adds systemd-boot options, Redox adopts COSMIC desktop, OpenSSH gains new security features |
| • Issue 1073 (2024-06-03): LXQt 2.0.0, an overview of Linux desktop environments, Canonical partners with Milk-V, openSUSE introduces new features in Aeon Desktop, Fedora mirrors see rise in traffic, Wayland adds OpenBSD support |
| • Issue 1072 (2024-05-27): Manjaro 24.0, comparing init software, OpenBSD ports Plasma 6, Arch community debates mirror requirements, ThinOS to upgrade its FreeBSD core |
| • Issue 1071 (2024-05-20): Archcraft 2024.04.06, common command line mistakes, ReactOS imports WINE improvements, Haiku makes adjusting themes easier, NetBSD takes a stand against code generated by chatbots |
| • Issue 1070 (2024-05-13): Damn Small Linux 2024, hiding kernel messages during boot, Red Hat offers AI edition, new web browser for UBports, Fedora Asahi Remix 40 released, Qubes extends support for version 4.1 |
| • Issue 1069 (2024-05-06): Ubuntu 24.04, installing packages in alternative locations, systemd creates sudo alternative, Mint encourages XApps collaboration, FreeBSD publishes quarterly update |
| • Issue 1068 (2024-04-29): Fedora 40, transforming one distro into another, Debian elects new Project Leader, Red Hat extends support cycle, Emmabuntus adds accessibility features, Canonical's new security features |
| • Issue 1067 (2024-04-22): LocalSend for transferring files, detecting supported CPU architecure levels, new visual design for APT, Fedora and openSUSE working on reproducible builds, LXQt released, AlmaLinux re-adds hardware support |
| • Issue 1066 (2024-04-15): Fun projects to do with the Raspberry Pi and PinePhone, installing new software on fixed-release distributions, improving GNOME Terminal performance, Mint testing new repository mirrors, Gentoo becomes a Software In the Public Interest project |
| • Issue 1065 (2024-04-08): Dr.Parted Live 24.03, answering questions about the xz exploit, Linux Mint to ship HWE kernel, AlmaLinux patches flaw ahead of upstream Red Hat, Calculate changes release model |
| • Issue 1064 (2024-04-01): NixOS 23.11, the status of Hurd, liblzma compromised upstream, FreeBSD Foundation focuses on improving wireless networking, Ubuntu Pro offers 12 years of support |
| • Issue 1063 (2024-03-25): Redcore Linux 2401, how slowly can a rolling release update, Debian starts new Project Leader election, Red Hat creating new NVIDIA driver, Snap store hit with more malware |
| • Issue 1062 (2024-03-18): KDE neon 20240304, changing file permissions, Canonical turns 20, Pop!_OS creates new software centre, openSUSE packages Plasma 6 |
| • Issue 1061 (2024-03-11): Using a PinePhone as a workstation, restarting background services on a schedule, NixBSD ports Nix to FreeBSD, Fedora packaging COSMIC, postmarketOS to adopt systemd, Linux Mint replacing HexChat |
| • Issue 1060 (2024-03-04): AV Linux MX-23.1, bootstrapping a network connection, key OpenBSD features, Qubes certifies new hardware, LXQt and Plasma migrate to Qt 6 |
| • Issue 1059 (2024-02-26): Warp Terminal, navigating manual pages, malware found in the Snap store, Red Hat considering CPU requirement update, UBports organizes ongoing work |
| • Issue 1058 (2024-02-19): Drauger OS 7.6, how much disk space to allocate, System76 prepares to launch COSMIC desktop, UBports changes its version scheme, TrueNAS to offer faster deduplication |
| • Issue 1057 (2024-02-12): Adelie Linux 1.0 Beta, rolling release vs fixed for a smoother experience, Debian working on 2038 bug, elementary OS to split applications from base system updates, Fedora announces Atomic Desktops |
| • Issue 1056 (2024-02-05): wattOS R13, the various write speeds of ISO writing tools, DSL returns, Mint faces Wayland challenges, HardenedBSD blocks foreign USB devices, Gentoo publishes new repository, Linux distros patch glibc flaw |
| • Issue 1055 (2024-01-29): CNIX OS 231204, distributions patching packages the most, Gentoo team presents ongoing work, UBports introduces connectivity and battery improvements, interview with Haiku developer |
| • Issue 1054 (2024-01-22): Solus 4.5, comparing dd and cp when writing ISO files, openSUSE plans new major Leap version, XeroLinux shutting down, HardenedBSD changes its build schedule |
| • Issue 1053 (2024-01-15): Linux AI voice assistants, some distributions running hotter than others, UBports talks about coming changes, Qubes certifies StarBook laptops, Asahi Linux improves energy savings |
| • Issue 1052 (2024-01-08): OpenMandriva Lx 5.0, keeping shell commands running when theterminal closes, Mint upgrades Edge kernel, Vanilla OS plans big changes, Canonical working to make Snap more cross-platform |
| • Issue 1051 (2024-01-01): Favourite distros of 2023, reloading shell settings, Asahi Linux releases Fedora remix, Gentoo offers binary packages, openSUSE provides full disk encryption |
| • Issue 1050 (2023-12-18): rlxos 2023.11, renaming files and opening terminal windows in specific directories, TrueNAS publishes ZFS fixes, Debian publishes delayed install media, Haiku polishes desktop experience |
| • Issue 1049 (2023-12-11): Lernstick 12, alternatives to WINE, openSUSE updates its branding, Mint unveils new features, Lubuntu team plans for 24.04 |
| • Issue 1048 (2023-12-04): openSUSE MicroOS, the transition from X11 to Wayland, Red Hat phasing out X11 packages, UBports making mobile development easier |
| • Issue 1047 (2023-11-27): GhostBSD 23.10.1, Why Linux uses swap when memory is free, Ubuntu Budgie may benefit from Wayland work in Xfce, early issues with FreeBSD 14.0 |
| • Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
| • Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
| • Issue 1044 (2023-11-06): Porteus 5.01, disabling IPv6, applications unique to a Linux distro, Linux merges bcachefs, OpenELA makes source packages available |
| • Issue 1043 (2023-10-30): Murena Two with privacy switches, where old files go when packages are updated, UBports on Volla phones, Mint testing Cinnamon on Wayland, Peppermint releases ARM build |
| • Issue 1042 (2023-10-23): Ubuntu Cinnamon compared with Linux Mint, extending battery life on Linux, Debian resumes /usr merge, Canonical publishes fixed install media |
| • Issue 1041 (2023-10-16): FydeOS 17.0, Dr.Parted 23.09, changing UIDs, Fedora partners with Slimbook, GNOME phasing out X11 sessions, Ubuntu revokes 23.10 install media |
| • Issue 1040 (2023-10-09): CROWZ 5.0, changing the location of default directories, Linux Mint updates its Edge edition, Murena crowdfunding new privacy phone, Debian publishes new install media |
| • Issue 1039 (2023-10-02): Zenwalk Current, finding the duration of media files, Peppermint OS tries out new edition, COSMIC gains new features, Canonical reports on security incident in Snap store |
| • Issue 1038 (2023-09-25): Mageia 9, trouble-shooting launchers, running desktop Linux in the cloud, New documentation for Nix, Linux phasing out ReiserFS, GNU celebrates 40 years |
| • Issue 1037 (2023-09-18): Bodhi Linux 7.0.0, finding specific distros and unified package managemnt, Zevenet replaced by two new forks, openSUSE introduces Slowroll branch, Fedora considering dropping Plasma X11 session |
| • Full list of all issues |
| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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| Random Distribution | 
gNOX
gNOX was a Linux Operating System that you run from a CD without the need for installing. gNOX was based on the Slackware Linux distribution, and uses Dropline GNOME 2.6 as its default desktop manager, with XFce also available as the lightweight alternative. gNOX also employs a modular system. This means it was very easy to add extra software applications to gNOX by the means of modules (a growing selection available in the downloads section ) that you can permanently add to the ISO image OR run 'on the fly' from a stored location (hard drive/CD/USB drive). gNOX can be customised to suit YOUR needs, and any changes you make to the look of your gNOX can be saved, then restored again next time you use it!
Status: Discontinued
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| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
Learn more about our full service package and all benefits from buying at TUXEDO.
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| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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