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1 • Slackware, the dinosaur (by ix on 2012-04-23 08:10:32 GMT from Romania) |
Slackware is a dinosaur, it's an old distro that has never tried to become modern. I can't say whether it's good or bad, but most people want a package manager and an easy to use OS. Geeks who want bleeding edge software and endless configuration have mostly gone to Arch. So, we may see Slackware go the way of the other dinosaurs, sadly.
Oh, well, time to move on, we can't be stuck forever in time.
2 • Trisquel GNU/Linux (by Alex on 2012-04-23 08:27:49 GMT from Australia)
I'd just like to interject with a resounding recommendation for Trisquel GNU/Linux.
I installed 5.5 the day it came out, and I am utterly convinced it is the sanest default desktop environment in a GNU/Linux distro I have ever seen.
The fact that it respects both my freedom and yours is a bonus, too.
3 • Trisquel is good (by Ahlee on 2012-04-23 09:19:42 GMT from Australia)
In total agreement with Alex, I also tried Trisquel and was pleasantly surprised. Just waiting for the new French distro Voyager 12.04 LTS to come out end of the month and might permanently install either Trisquel 5.5 or Voyager 12.04.
4 • OpenMediaVault (by musty on 2012-04-23 10:29:10 GMT from France)
Nice review. OpenMediaVault is only version 0.2.5 but it is fully usable. And the developer is the one who have worked on FreeNas before, so i am very confident on the future of this great distro.
5 • Windows managers/destop environments (by Wine Curmudgeon on 2012-04-23 10:59:16 GMT from United States)
That's as complete and simple and clear an answer as I have seen. How do you do that without using jargon, like so many others?
6 • @1, Slackware (by TobiSGD on 2012-04-23 11:03:18 GMT from Germany)
Common misconception. Slackware has a package management system. It just has no dependency resolution and that is for the people that use it a good thing. If you want Slackware with dependency resolution go for Salix.
Slackware can have bleeding edge software, just use the -current branch.
If it is modern to jump on anything Lennart Poettering or Mark Shuttleworth spit out their brains or not to have the total control of your system than it is a good thing that there is at least one distro that is not modern.
Slackware is here for almost 20 years now, longer than any other distribution. I predict that Slackware will still be here when no one can remember Ubuntu anymore.
But that is just my opinion and i am quite biased.
7 • OpenMediaVault (by greg on 2012-04-23 11:15:26 GMT from Slovenia)
how come something based on Debian stable can fail security patch via CLI? Any word on what went wrong? As i understand it is basically Debian with a few selected packaged and a nice web GUI. It would be good to get some feedback on this from developers. Could it be it failed because it is still under development?
Why would changing settings on local server via web be slow? Or failing. is it bugged?
Aside from that it looks very nice and friendly.
8 • Slackware (by DR. Long on 2012-04-23 11:37:36 GMT from United States)
I agree, one can make Slackware as current and modern as any other distro if you don't mind getting you hands dirtty. As far as package management on can also use gslapt or Vector Linux.
9 • Slackware dead? (by Wolfen on 2012-04-23 12:13:20 GMT from United States)
Really? Please people....let's get this straight....I have been using Linux as my default OS since 1997. My first distro? Slackware. Pat Volkerding and his team have brought many years of software freedom and open source quality to the table for us. Look at the most successful distros today....they all have community-based support. When we start talking about the "death" of a "dinosaur" (one of the few still around responsible for what Open Source has become) what are we saying to the newbies that are just coming into the game? It looks to them as if we are giving up on one of our own. Not to mention the number of people that think if something is dying that its not worth their time to install it and give it a try. Slackware has always been a very efficient distro, usually producing better overall system performance and much better stability than most of the top 5. Have some complaints? Do something about it. Volunteer a little time...particularly you experts who know a little something about Linux. Let one major distro die off, and we weaken the entire movement....that's what Bill wants.....
10 • AtlasX (by DavidEF on 2012-04-23 12:25:44 GMT from United States)
Has anyone tried this AtlasX yet? I like a lot of the Enlightenment philosophies and ways of doing things. I just looked at the AtlasX website, and it seems promising. Does anyone know if it's any good? How does it compare to other Enlightened distros?
11 • Slackware (by montezuma on 2012-04-23 12:29:42 GMT from United States)
All Hail Slack the vital ingredient of the Church of the Subgenius.
Confusing Slack with Death is stupid.
12 • @9 Slackware (by greg on 2012-04-23 12:48:13 GMT from Slovenia)
"Have some complaints? Do something about it."
I think they did do something about it. They moved to another distribution of Desktop Linux that addresses their complaints and issues. They also made the Linux easy to use via GUI something which brought plenty of skeptical people to at least give Desktop Linux a try and some stuck with it.
As i understand Slackware is community project so unless it's community "dies out" it is not really dead. Some people like the way it works and until they are arround developing it, it will live on. Wheather it will still be a big project is another thing.
13 • Slackware (by DavidEF on 2012-04-23 13:01:42 GMT from United States)
I personally have no interest in using Slackware. However, #9 Wolfen has a point. If Slackware dies at this point, it will be because the rumor mill killed it. We don't need no stinkin' euthanasia! We seem to have somehow gotten to the point where we think that if some distro has trouble, the end is near. If I heard correctly, they have an old server that needs replacing. I read an article once about a girl who overspent her way into thousands of dollars of credit-card debt that she had no hope of paying. She simply made a video and uploaded it to Youtube, asking for money, and she got it! If enough people would give a few dollars to Patrick or whoever is responsible for the server, it would be nothing to replace it.
Also, remember, this is "free" software. The "END" of Slackware NEVER has to come, nor of any other distro. As long as there is even ONE PERSON who is willing to keep it alive, it can live. That's one of open software's BEST FEATURES! Unlike proprietary stuff, open software belongs to us all, and can be upheld by anyone who has the inclination, time and talent.
14 • RE: Slackware (by Eddie on 2012-04-23 13:27:15 GMT from United States)
Slackware is not dead but then again it's not on what you would call solid footing either. Even tho their website is working it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while. Furthermore even tho the community jumps up in defense of Slackware with ridiculous statements of fanboyism that doesn't mean Slackware will continue in it's present form. It cannot. At this time Slackware is going to have a hard time bringing in new users. Not because it's not good but because it's not for most people and most people would not want the hassle that Slackware offers. I look at this from the viewpoint of the general public. It doesn't matter if you are biased or are a veteran user of Slackware, if they don't do something different then the oldest Linux distro still active will fade away. That is my opinion and I'm not biased.
15 • Streaming-media asks: (by Steff on 2012-04-23 13:37:45 GMT from Germany)
I used Darwin Streaming Server, the open source version of Apple's Quicktime Streaming Server, some time ago on my FreeBSD Server. There is a FreeBSD port for it in category net, but you have to download the sources first from Apple's developer page.
16 • NAS storage (by octathlon on 2012-04-23 13:45:11 GMT from United States)
Do these NAS systems require starting from scratch with a new filesystem, or can an existing drive with data be plugged in as is (assuming it uses a supported fs)?
17 • get your facts straight (by Ricardo Oliveira on 2012-04-23 13:47:06 GMT from Portugal)
get your facts straight! check the slackware -current branch changelogs
there is plenty of activity there.
18 • Slack (by Sam on 2012-04-23 13:55:28 GMT from United States)
Perhaps it is me, but am I the only one here thinking Linux may well never conquer the PC desktop, may never become the OS of choice for the great twittering/facebooking/OMG! masses? Nor do I think Linux as a desktop OS SHOULD be the option for the masses.
Linux as an OS is the choice for a certain set of people who want the control over their computing the major OSes don't allow; who want a sane desktop as they define sane, not as defined the idiot who thought the "Metro" design is "sane" computing; for people who still use the word "application" or ::gasp:: "software" rather than "app." For these people, Linux has something of a learning curve - so we have the "intro" or "newbie" distros like Ubuntu or Mint. Once you've learned enough and start hitting against the artificial walls of these distros, or your hand gets tired of all the hand-holding, there are places in the Linux universe for you to journey and learn more, configure more, tailor your computer to what you need it for -- places like Debian, Red Hat, Arch, and Slackware.
Folks saying Slackware's dead, should stop and think where will we have left to go if it dies? For folks saying "We have Ubuntu, nobody's going to care about Slackware," you really don't get Linux, do you? Why are you here? Who invited you? If all you're looking for in a computing environment is what Ubuntu offers you, then maybe you would be better served sticking with Windows or OS X - then at least you'd not take up Linux forums complaining about lack of hardware drivers or all those cool games.
19 • Slackware Activity (by Nnyan on 2012-04-23 14:04:02 GMT from United States)
Yeah plenty of activity just not many Slackware "supporters" actually supporting their OS financially.
20 • environments and NAS (by Jesse on 2012-04-23 14:17:24 GMT from Canada)
>> "That's as complete and simple and clear an answer as I have seen. How do you do that without using jargon, like so many others?"
Thanks. It comes from spending time on the help desk and being the family's IT guy.
>> "Do these NAS systems require starting from scratch with a new filesystem, or can an existing drive with data be plugged in as is (assuming it uses a supported fs)?"
Any time I tried to add a new disk to OpenMediaVault, even one with an existing, pre-formatted file system, it would insist on re-formating and wiping the new volume.
21 • OpenMediaVault (by musty on 2012-04-23 14:29:23 GMT from France)
I installed the OpenMediaVault "openmediavault_0.2.5_i386.iso" in virtualbox and I did all the security updates without problem. Maybe the download was corrupted or problem on debian servers that day
In any case since April 20 there is a new version 0.3 (currently in x64 only)
thank you all for your hard work...
22 • @18 (by Patrick on 2012-04-23 14:43:17 GMT from United States)
Boy, that was unnecessarily aggressive. Since when is Linux use by invitation only? It seems to me it is you who doesn't "get" Linux.
Seriously, I'd like to hear some more about those "artificial walls" that are supposed to prevent people from doing things in Ubuntu or Mint. Tell me one thing you can do in your "grown up" Linux that can't be done in one of them. The fact that you're so wrapped up in the idea that distros make any difference whatsoever in what you can do labels you as a fanboy.
23 • Slackware dead? (by Cliff on 2012-04-23 14:48:30 GMT from United States)
"Oh, well, time to move on, we can't be stuck forever in time."
Thoughtless comments like this drive me around the bend.
It's the freedom to choose what fits your needs that makes
the open source landscape what it is. Instead of wishing
bad things on a given project, be grateful that we have yet
another option to choose from!
24 • OpenMediaVault update (by Jesse on 2012-04-23 15:03:38 GMT from Canada)
>> "I installed the OpenMediaVault "openmediavault_0.2.5_i386.iso" in virtualbox and I did all the security updates without problem. Maybe the download was corrupted or problem on debian servers that day"
Those are entirely possible. I'm curious, did you apply updates via the command line or using the web GUI? I'm curious if maybe a security patch was applied to Apache and caused the interface to crash and, maybe, as a result interrupted the upgrade. I can't say for sure, but hopefully it was a fluke rather than the norm.
25 • Slacware (by Raksi on 2012-04-23 15:04:59 GMT from Hungary)
I tried Slackware some time ago. It was really a nice experience. I enjoyed the full control of the system and the stability it offered. However, its package repository turned out to be too small. I had to install many things from source. After a while I got bored to wait hours in order to install/compile something. So, I use Debian now. Same stability, same control over the system and a way much larger package repository.
Some time ago Slackware was a modern and user-friendly distribution. However, time has passed and it was unable to change. Just like dinosaurs.
26 • @18 (by squilookle on 2012-04-23 15:11:05 GMT from United States)
Your comments do come across as elitist and this is a general problem with the community- this type of infighting doesn't improve the experience or progress free software.
Also, your statement "If all you're looking for in a computing environment is what Ubuntu offers you, then maybe you would be better served sticking with Windows or OS X " doesn't make sense - if Ubuntu offers what you are looking for, then there is no reason not to use it.
I have used Slackware, it was alright, and I wish the project success even though I don't intend to return to using it.
I do agree with this statement: "Folks saying Slackware's dead, should stop and think where will we have left to go if it dies?". Rumour mills of the death of different projects, Slackware, Kubuntu, KDE and others, whenever they hit trouble, is another issue with the community that does not help us progress. If folk but as much effort into supporting their favourite projects as they do writing off any projects that suffers any kind of set back, we would all be much better off.
27 • Comments on # 1 # 7 (by lott on 2012-04-23 15:14:06 GMT from Colombia)
I agree with most of the comments that where maid by TobiSGD.
But one Ubuntu is going to die soon no, Slack is going to be around for long time you bet.
The comment that #1 made is out context, he is probably one of those newbies that never use the command line.
He is probably one of the individuals that likes every thing done for him.
You know a mac baby or windows newbie.
I have been here since there was no GUI and I have tried all distributions.
My first time using a computer it was done on key punch cards and COBOL.
My first PC was a Amstrad with 286 it had16 Meg's on board RAM.
No Hard Drive, no CD, the most I hope for was buying two chips of ram to get a total 32 Meg's.
And 4 days coding on to floppies or cassette for some work on a piece of software that was made to my specs.
So do not be little someones work just because you can not use it.
You try building a kernel and make it with 50 different mother boards, much less 700 different peripherals and to work right out of the box.
Then you may have something to say , or at least say something constructive.
Till that time, it is best to keep comments that have no place other then in your obtuse mind.
And that is my personal and limited view, on some of those comments.
And 7 • OpenMediaVault there are some dependencies that where not downloaded correctly.
And no two PC's are a like, this are do CPU to Hard Drive cache.
The compiling may be done on the CPU cycles but not on the Drive.
There are times that you see the reboot icon is in front of you, and you look at work in the back ground and it is not done.
Just wait and you will see that it finishes, then reboot and it works just fine.
Just look at lets say for argument sake windows vista it done updating, you reboot hoops now you have to go to recovery because update was never finished.
Now on windows 7 you get that prolonged power off cycle, that the GUI finishing the work off reorganizing.
Part is hard drive part is the GUI protocol, it is better optimize on win 7 them it's older version OS.
28 • Slackware (by Didier Spaier on 2012-04-23 15:15:48 GMT from France)
1) The website is up at time of writing. If it were not, it's no big deal anyway. As stated on http://www.slackware.com/index.html : "Oh, in case our web server that's rather short of RAM goes down, try this link: http://connie.slackware.com". The website has been down sometimes in past years, so what? During these off time, Slackware always stay available, just use the ftp mirrors provided.
2) The website do look old but I don't care. I use it only to find my way and it's good enough for that.
3) Slackware is still alive and well, as you can see if you look at one of the -current changelogs
4) A lot of people prefer other distribution, missing features they don't find in it, like automatic resolution dependency or _GUI_for_everything_, this has been said and said and said, ad nausea. So what ? Slackware is not for everybody and nobody is forced to use it.
Oh, and I don't care how few people use Slackware, as long as I can be one of these happy few ;)
29 • @28 (by ken on 2012-04-23 15:37:37 GMT from Congo, The Democratic Republic of the)
Agreeing with you. Slackware not for everyone, not for me at the moment. I cannot use things like arch, slackware or gentoo, but I keep reading about them and hope that one day when I know more about OSs I will test myself by installing and using them, as difficult as they are. That's why I wish that slackware lives.
30 • OpenMediaVault Update (by musty on 2012-04-23 15:55:07 GMT from France)
@24 Jesse :I think it was update by web GUI but it's dated January 30, 2012 and I have not updated since despite the release of the 0.2.7.x (shame on me). I'm not at home. Sorry Jesse, I would have gladly taken the test
31 • some thing to the Intellect # 1 (by lott on 2012-04-23 16:17:38 GMT from Colombia)
To #1 here is a Distribution more your intellect http://ultimateedition.info/ it is really cool.
It has everything there is no need add one single bit of coding.
It is done by someone who really cares what is in the distribution.
But I guess you would say it is bloated, no it is just what Linux is a bought options and having a choice.
It is done by TheeMahn this is and individual that cares and gives the user a choice.
And next time you wright some thing down, I will say this make sure your mouth is big enough to stick both feet in it.
Because we know your mind sure is not up to the task.
32 • Slack (by na5m on 2012-04-23 16:42:34 GMT from United States)
Evolution is not bad. Things come and things go; they leave their imprint. Desirable traits are absorbed. Life improves. I'm sure that most distros out there today have been influenced in some manner by Slack, directly or indirectly.
In my opinion, nothing is truly dead so long as it has left a legacy. My grandpa may be dead, but the legacy he's handed down will continue to live on in me & my siblings (curiousity, tinkering, fixing, ingenuity, frugality, etc).
33 • Jesse - NAS / VortexBox (by MIchael on 2012-04-23 16:53:04 GMT from United States)
Jesse, not sure all the distros you have on your NAS list. I was wondering if you could include VortexBox. It functions more as a backend Media Server but can function decently as a specialized NAS. I have used it to store photos and other files, not just movies and music.
34 • VortexBox as a NAS (by DavidEF on 2012-04-23 17:12:23 GMT from United States)
I don't know anything about it, but this statement: "It functions more as a backend Media Server..." would disqualify it for me. Maybe, in the future a series of reviews of Media Servers? I am currently thinking about a NAS solution for serving files at my home. I don't know enough about servers, so I'd rather only consider one that is doing what it was made for, not being shoe-horned into a new role. Of course, if it was really, REALLY good as a NAS, and dead easy to configure it as such, it might be nice to compare.
35 • Slackware (by Josh on 2012-04-23 18:29:55 GMT from United States)
I have no plans to stop using Slackware in the future. I've been using it for more than 10 years, and it's certainly one of the most efficient distributions I've come across. Works just fine on my old P2 400Mhz with 32MB of RAM. Good luck getting any use out of a system like that with more "modern" distributions :)
36 • Slackware (by Arkanabar on 2012-04-23 19:15:43 GMT from United States)
I've yet to use Slackware. The closest I've come is SalixOS. Like most, I like my automated dependency resolution. But I recognize that there are always going to be people who don't, and Slackware will doubtless remain the distro of choice for them. For those who were upset to learn about this design choice after installing, I am very sorry. Do your research next time.
Slackware has other advantages: ironclad quality control, and (if I remember correctly) often packages that are a little more up to date than Debian Stable. (13.37 has KDE at 4.5.5, vs 4.4.5 in Squeeze, and the kernel is at 2.6.37 vs 2.6.32 for Squeeze.) A smaller package list & tree would certainly be easier to keep updated.
Slackware has a niche in the marketplace, and it's one that I doubt anyone else plans to enter. Ad multos annos.
37 • Slackware (by Andreas on 2012-04-23 19:21:16 GMT from United States)
Slackware's been around long time for it to disappear, maybe a derivative distro but not the one many others are stemming from. Thanks Ladislav and contributors for DW.
38 • Re: Desktop Managers & Slackware rant (by Sitwon on 2012-04-23 19:31:19 GMT from United States)
@Jesse Smith, you seem to be a bit confused about Desktop Managers. I think the question was actually referring to KDM/GDM/XDM and the like. Personally, I use SLiM.
On the topic of Slackware, it seems to be that most of the people criticizing Slackware seem to know very little about it. They have probably never actually used Slackware or at least never gave it a fair shot.
Slackware DOES have a package manager, it just doesn't have automatic dependency resolution. This is rarely a problem and more often an advantage. Furthermore Slackware is not ancient and unevolved. Those of us on -current are running a 3.2.13 kernel and GCC 4.7.0. Slackware is just as "modern" as any other distribution, it's just that Pat & team don't jump on every new fad, they like to wait until things are stable before adopting them, especially if the current system is working just fine and upgrading will break support for a lot otherwise still working systems. They tend to let other distros do the beta testing and work out all the bugs while watching closely from the sidelines.
This is why Slackware is still one of the cleanest and most stable distributions available. It does change and evolve, but thoughtfully, rather than haphazardly like we see in other corners.
39 • Display manager (by Jesse on 2012-04-23 19:44:05 GMT from Canada)
>> "@Jesse Smith, you seem to be a bit confused about Desktop Managers. I think the question was actually referring to KDM/GDM/XDM and the like. Personally, I use SLiM."
It could be the person originally posting the question did, in fact, mean display managers (kdm, gdm, xdm etc), rather than desktop manager. That would make sense. If that was the case, and if anyone is interested, you can get a quick over view on display managers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_manager
40 • Slackware (by drlove on 2012-04-23 20:37:23 GMT from United States)
As a noob, I think I should speak out about my recent experience with Slackware. I still call myself a noob, but I'm probably approaching more of an intermediate level. Anyway, I just downloaded Slackware a few days ago and successfully installed it on my laptop thanks to the excellent documentation provided on the website. So far, it's been a pleasant experience and I'm really diggin' the philosophy and style behind one of the oldest living distros. I chose Slackware to explore next mainly because I want to learn what makes my system tick. I want to have a deeper understanding of Linux in general and I think Slackware is the perfect avenue to accomplish just that. The fact that it's not so easy to use or configure sometimes for the average Joe is a good thing because it forces you to learn about your computer. You can't just point and click everywhere. No, you have to use, OMG!...the command line and edit text files and...oh no!..research. All in all, I'd say Slackware is more for the Linux enthusiast rather than the Linux user. That's not to say that a noob shouldn't try it, but that if you're gonna try it, then have an open mind and come in with a thirst for knowledge. Well, that's about it for my 2 cents. Peace.
41 • @40 Slackware (by drlove on 2012-04-23 20:50:51 GMT from United States)
I also wanted to say that I have no problems with distros like Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a great distro for introducing people to the world of Linux. I probably still wouldn't have a clue if weren't for the likes of Ubuntu. Kudos for snatching me out of the Matrix :D And sometimes people want a distro that just works so they can carry on with more important business instead of tinkering under the hood all the time. Okay that is all.
42 • @35 - modern distro for old hardware (by Gnobuddy on 2012-04-23 20:59:22 GMT from United States)
In post # 35 Josh wrote (about Slackware):
Works just fine on my old P2 400Mhz with 32MB of RAM. Good luck getting any use out of a system like that with more "modern" distributions :)
Tiny Core Linux (an active modern distro) and Damn Small Linux (dead, but not buried yet) are two options other than Slackware. I use Tiny Core to keep several decade-old machines alive and functioning, providing Web access to a bunch of CGI tools I wrote and other online resources for my students to use in my classroom.
With 32 MB or RAM, are you running a GUI, or entirely in command line mode?
43 • @42 (by Josh on 2012-04-23 21:23:08 GMT from United States)
Yes, I've played with both Tiny Core and DSL, but I find them rather ... restrictive compared to Slackware. That's not to say I couldn't install and use them as well as I use Slackware on that machine; rather, Slackware starts out the way I want it without needing to futz around with getting compilers and all sorts of libraries that aren't included with Tiny and DSL.
At times I do run a simple fluxbox GUI on the 32MB, but more often than not I just have it at initlevel 3 :)
44 • Slackware (by Happy on 2012-04-23 21:54:36 GMT from Spain)
I like Slackware. I do not use it for everyday computing but always have a partition with Slack for emergency cases. Simple, fast and stable. I like the idea of vanilla KDE.
For everything else there are Slackbuilds.org and Linuxpackages.net.
45 • @10 AtlasX (by pavroo on 2012-04-23 22:35:01 GMT from Poland)
Hard to say. I have started downloading but... I did not finish. The service is down today :(
46 • Slackware (by claudecat on 2012-04-23 22:49:52 GMT from United States)
In my experience, slackware ain't as difficult as many would have you believe. For someone that just wants to do normal web, music, video, etc, (the linux newcomer for instance) (s)he really won't need to install anything beyond what it comes with (assuming the recommended full install is done), so the lack of dependency checking becomes moot. If you need wireless, install wicd from the extras folder on the install dvd, if not, you're already connected most likely.
As for command line, well yeah - having to manually do adduser at first boot can be scary I suppose - and editing /etc/inittab to make it default to runlevel 4 is not what the average newcomer to linux is gonna be comfortable with (however, using mc, it's cake), but after that? The only cli I ever do in slack is using slackpkg to update and upgrade-all. Oh, and sbopkg, but no newcomer really needs that.
My point is that once you get through the install, which really is pretty simple, and the few initial steps listed above, there's usually no under-the-hood fiddling necessary. Anyone new to linux shouldn't be scared of the slack. The slack is good - and not just because of its historical significance. It can be an extremely stable everyday system for even the non-geek.
47 • Slackware (by Ringwraith on 2012-04-23 23:55:57 GMT from United States)
I have been using Slack for 13 or so years. I have it on my laptop now running current. I have tried most of the other major distros over the years and just always found Slack to be the most stable. A big part of that is the lack of dependency checking. Slack has a large user base that is happy with it, so I don't foresee it going away any time soon. The thing with most Slackers is they aren't the people that talk about it a lot. They use Slack because they want something that works not because it is the fad of the day. But unfortunately they also are the kind that don't pay for it. If they stay on current they have been through many major releases without reinstalling. They don't really even notice a new major release.
48 • What Slackware demise? (by Jason Hsu on 2012-04-24 00:11:02 GMT from United States)
According to the DistroWatch rankings, Slackware is
1. #16 for the last 6 months (552 hits/day)
2. #17 for the last 12 months (574 hits/day)
3. #12 in 2011 (623 hits/day)
4. #11 in 2010 (560 hits/day)
5. #13 in 2009 (577 hits/day)
6. #12 in 2008 (531 hits/day)
Slackware seems to be a well-established distro that has a substantial following and is clearly holding its own. I see plenty of room for Slackware and hundreds of other distros. Even though I would never use Slackware (for the same reason I would never use Arch Linux or Gentoo Linux), I highly regard it. As others have noted, the sheer number of users isn't the only measure of success. The influence a distro has is another. KNOPPIX is much less popular than it once was, but it's the distro that made live CDs effectively mandatory for mainstream distros. (Only a Debian, Arch, Gentoo, Slackware, etc. can be exempt from this de-facto requirement.)
I don't consider most distros to be competitors of Slackware. I seriously doubt that people who use Slackware as their primary distro would seriously consider switching to Linux Mint, Fedora, Puppy Linux, OpenSUSE, etc. In my opinion, Slackware's competitors are Debian, Arch, Gentoo, Linux From Scratch, etc.
Some people complain that there are too many distros. I think it's great that there are so many, because it means that there is an active marketplace of ideas. If one distro makes a change that people don't like, other distros can compete to fill the void left. People complain that there are too many Ubuntu derivatives, but Linux Mint is a Ubuntu derivative. Due to the controversy over Ubuntu's new Unity interface, Linux Mint has effectively become a continuation of what the old Ubuntu stood for.
49 • Slackware (by Bob on 2012-04-24 00:41:10 GMT from Austria)
DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking (2012-04-23):
Slackware - #16 (last 6 months), #18 (3 months), #21 (1 month)
Mageia - #7 (6 months), #6 (3 months), #4 (1 month)
This might lead to the conclusion that the number of Linux masochists is indeed dwindling ...
50 • @25, Slackware (by TobiSGD on 2012-04-24 00:51:47 GMT from Germany)
"Some time ago Slackware was a modern and user-friendly distribution."
1. Modern: posting this from a system with kernel 3.2.13, gcc 4.7, Firefox 11.0, Thunderbird 11, VLC 2.0.1, etc. Which versions do you have on your modern distro? Or do you mean with modern something like the breaking of compatibilities with Poettering's systemd, which includes the change to binary configuration files?
2. User-friendly: I don't know how often I have to repeat this. User-friendliness is a myth. For me Slackware is totally user-friendly, because I know how to configure and use it and I like the way. I am more comfortable with editing configuration files with a text editor (and oh my god, I am using the ancient editor vim for that) than with clicking through endless GUI dialogs. But that is me, you or any other user may (and will) feel different about that.
But all of us are users and since all of us do it different and like it different, it is implied that user-friendliness is not existent, or at least reduced to one specific user or user group.
Conclusion: Slackware is a modern distribution that is user-friendly to a certain user group.
Question: Have you ever tried it longer than 30 minutes after finishing the installation?
If not, be fair and give it a longer try, if yes, OK, may be Slackware is simply not yours.
But if you make statements about any distro please provide on what basis you make that statements.
51 • Media "Streamer" (by RO on 2012-04-24 02:19:39 GMT from United States)
If you want to really go all out in this regard, you might want to consider XBMC:
"XBMC is an award-winning free and open source (GPL) software media player and entertainment hub for digital media. XBMC is available for Linux, OSX, and Windows. ... Currently XBMC can be used to play almost all popular audio and video formats around. It was designed for network playback, so you can stream your multimedia from anywhere in the house or directly from the internet using practically any protocol available. Use your media as-is: XBMC can play CDs and DVDs directly from the disk or image file, almost all popular archive formats from your hard drive, and even files inside ZIP and RAR archives. It will even scan all of your media and automatically create a personalized library complete with box covers, descriptions, and fanart. There are playlist and slideshow functions, a weather forecast feature and many audio visualizations. Once installed, your computer will become a fully functional multimedia jukebox."
It seems it will even be installable in Ubuntu 12.04 directly from their repositories with apt, and direct from the XBMC site is a variant that is an alternate Desktop Environment (see Jesse's Q&A this week) built on LXDE, "XBMCbuntu". As I wrote, this is "all out".
52 • Slackware (by Arkanabar on 2012-04-24 02:41:10 GMT from United States)
@49: DW HPD rankings indicate one thing, and one thing only: how many people come here each day and look for news about a distro. It's been about a year since Slackware's latest release, and interest tends to decline when a distro isn't in the release feed. Of *course* interest in Magiea is rising -- they're building toward their second stable release, and they're on the feed pretty regularly. It's a very exciting time for them. I'm happy for them, and looking forward to installing.
53 • Slackware (by Thomas Mueller on 2012-04-24 03:46:41 GMT from United States)
I became painfully aware of the inadequacy of Slackware's package system when I tried to build some applications including gnumeric and Abiword from source and had to follow the dependencies on my own, installing to prefix /usr/local . Problem arose that, when some dependencies were installed to /usr/local prefix, grep and sed couldn't find needed files, perhaps a bug in Slackware's sed and grep. I got the impression that Slackware was a bundle of packages awkwardly slapped together without regard to dependencies as I became spoiled by NetBSD pkgsrc and FreeBSD ports system, where I was successful in building gnumeric and Abiword, among other applications..
I noticed how many multimedia files wouldn't play right in Seamonkey browser, and Adobe Flash videos caused Seamonkey to crash about half the time, but when I downloaded and installed Seamonkey updates from the Mozilla Seamonkey site, Adobe Flash videos were not so crash-prone.
Possibly the drop in Slackware's page hit ranking on DistroWatch was due to inability to access Slackware web site rather than dissatisfaction with Slackware as such?
I was a long-term Slackware subscriber, ending at 13.0.
54 • @50 user friendly... (by greg on 2012-04-24 06:15:04 GMT from Slovenia)
User friendlienss is nto a myth. I tmean that peopel who never touched the interface would know what to do just by looking at it. For example to me Inkscape which i saw for the first time was very user friendly as i could get immediatelly to work and do what i set out to do on it. Similar would be for GUI text editor where i preety much know what to expect under File menu - file manipulation services....
Forward & back buttons on browser - preety much self explanatory... or the stop button or reload... you dont' need to read documentation and explanation o development of those features to be able to figure out what they do.
you can't say you figured out vim by yourself or how to setup slackware for that matter. documentation needed to be read.
55 • Slackware is an ecosystem (by AP on 2012-04-24 06:55:36 GMT from India)
There's a whole family of distros based on it. Some of the few I have tried are Salix OS, Zenwalk, Vector. These slackware based distros make package management easier. I have never gone vanilla Slackware as I don't have the motivation to manually update packages and resolve dependencies.
That said, overall, I think that the Slackware family is excellent, and far better than many hyped distros where fluff counts. The demise of Slackware seems to be greatly exaggerated. Excellent distro.
56 • @50, Slackware (by Raksi on 2012-04-24 08:14:31 GMT from Hungary)
"1. Modern: posting this from a system with kernel 3.2.13, gcc 4.7, Firefox 11.0, Thunderbird 11, VLC 2.0.1, etc. Which versions do you have on your modern distro? Or do you mean with modern something like the breaking of compatibilities with Poettering's systemd, which includes the change to binary configuration files?"
The newest kernel and Firefix does not make Slackware modern (if I understood "modern" correctly). What I meant is that Slackware is old fashioned. Sometime ago it was modern. The way you could install or set it up was considered to be easy. But what modern was in 1995 is not modern in it did not change much. So, it is not modern anymore.
"2. User-friendly: I don't know how often I have to repeat this. User-friendliness is a myth. For me Slackware is totally user-friendly, because I know how to configure and use it and I like the way. I am more comfortable with editing configuration files with a text editor (and oh my god, I am using the ancient editor vim for that) than with clicking through endless GUI dialogs. But that is me, you or any other user may (and will) feel different about that.
But all of us are users and since all of us do it different and like it different, it is implied that user-friendliness is not existent, or at least reduced to one specific user or user group."
For all of my work I use vim (the best), I edit configuration files instead of using GUIs. But it is 2012. Computers are used by average people not just by computer scientists or geeks (see comment 54 also).
"Question: Have you ever tried it longer than 30 minutes after finishing the installation?
If not, be fair and give it a longer try, if yes, OK, may be Slackware is simply not yours."
Sure, I tried it, even I enjoyed it for a while. Then, I got sick of its small repo (as I wrote in my post No. 25).
57 • Slackware (by Thomas Holbrook II on 2012-04-24 09:46:48 GMT from United States)
I for one think that the Slackware server has been long overdue for an upgrade. :)
58 • Re: 54 and 50 slackware userfriendly (by deNiro on 2012-04-24 10:25:59 GMT from Belgium)
the definition whether something is user friendly depends on the audience. For 50+ people that never touched a computer, slackware won't be userfriendly. But for the poweruser, slackware is one of the most user-friendly OS you can find.
Starting with windows vista/7 and now the latest WM's on linux, the computer is treated more like a consumer device then a computer. I think for most people here, who started with computing < 1990, this is not acceptable.
The graphical interface nowadays seems to be used to hide "complex" stuff or even installed applications just to comfort the user, plus it makes the user feel he is just allowed using the computer, instead of controlling it. (this is exactly how MS and the controlling elite wants you to feel about it) In a way this alienates the majority from actually being in control over the computer. It also reduces the motivation to gain the knowledge needed to control it. And that's a shame, because we need the people, and especially the youth, to be in control and have as much knowledge as possible to be aware and stay critical.
The above may seem abstract arguments, but I fear a non critical crowed and a point and click generation. And i would love to see more people with more knowledge.
That's why slackware is so userfriendly. You can actually learn how to control your computer the easy way. with relatively simple and open config files. But, it takes some effort! But indeed, it is not point and click easy.
59 • Slackbuilds (by Matthew T on 2012-04-24 12:34:08 GMT from United States)
@53 I am a relative newcomer to Slackware but have found slackbuilds.org to be an invaluable resource. I used slackbuilds found there to install Abiword, a Flash player plug-in, and several programs with no problem.
60 • @58 still on the user friendly topic (by greg on 2012-04-24 13:07:43 GMT from Slovenia)
"But for the poweruser, slackware is one of the most user-friendly OS you can find."
Exactly that means it's power user friendly and not average user friendly. : -) I am not saying all OS should be iOS but just some things should be simple... why make it complicated if osmoene found a simpler way? Why use square wheels when round ones are so much smoother and faster? :-D Give options - basic (with default setups etc) and advanced. Basic for average users and advanced for those that need/want more tweaking.
" it makes the user feel he is just allowed using the computer, instead of controlling it" i agree 100%!!! and you are absolutely correct. That is why i am glad projects like RasPi exist. I want my kid to understand why and how it works. Don't need to know porgramming but just how it all works. iOS, MacOs windows they really go to every length to obscure it all too much. Again they went with basic only. in my opinion advanced settings/options should be there as well.
61 • RE: 58 (by deNiro on 2012-04-24 14:27:49 GMT from Belgium)
in addition to my post 58 I would like to say that I did not meant that user interfaces should not change, or that using a computer should be complex.
I just think that by oversimplifying the user interface, and hiding too much basic elements, the user will find the computer even more complex and feel less confident.
I think that even the average user, that is forced to do a little effort, will feel more knowledgeable, more confident, and not so alienated from his/her own computer.
A simple example is the new way of accessing applications. No more simple menu, but now your OS comes with a hud or a search engine to find and start your programs. Users will never notice all the crap they have installed on their pc, because they do not see them anymore. In other words, now even installed applications become part of what is under the hood.
62 • RE:60 (by deNiro on 2012-04-24 14:28:33 GMT from Belgium)
"Exactly that means it's power user friendly and not average user friendly. : -) "
Yes, you are right about that. And I think that unfriendly part is mostly about installing applications. Slackware isn't very user friendly when it comes to install applications for the user who doesn't want t to spend much time in fiddling around.
And here is where Salix OS comes in. Those devs did a great job in making slackware usable for even the average user who just wants to use it for running apps.
63 • Live Streaming and Desktop Recording (by Tim Jacobs on 2012-04-24 15:04:13 GMT from United States)
Hello all. I put together a tutorial on how to install and use FFMpeg to record your desktop for creating streams and tutorials. I am looking for comments (within reason) and suggestions. By all means, feel free to use this information for your projects.
64 • distrowatch/Ubuntu (by Colin on 2012-04-24 15:10:50 GMT from United Kingdom)
has anyone else noticed how distrowatch goes really quiete just before an upcoming release of Ubuntu. I am just waiting for the flurry of Ubuntu 12.04 distros that regulary follow.
65 • Package Manager experience only = Spoiled Users (by devnet on 2012-04-24 18:30:46 GMT from United States)
I've been using Slackware off and on since 1995.
It's not going anywhere...the community won't let it. Even if Patrick decided to quit, it STILL wouldn't go anywhere. It's too dear to us for us to let it drop.
As for dependency resolution and package managers, I wrote an article on this very subject with Slackware in mind:
Give it a read! Most of you out there are spoiled by dependency resolution...in my opinion, it makes for spoiled users. Of course, that's my opinion.
66 • About userfriendlyness (by ned on 2012-04-24 20:04:19 GMT from Austria)
Nowithstanding all the hair-splitting about what is user-friendly, a computer is a tool.
I'm driving my car, and that very well, without being a mechanic, so why should I be a computer technician to use my computer?!
If you *like* being a technicician, that's something else - I'm also glad that there are people who *like* being mechanics, so I can go to them to repair my car if something goes wrong. Which is rather a rare event, in case of my car. The same should be the case for my computer.
So don't make a fucking religion out of it - if you enjoy tinkering about with your computer, that's great, but that doesn't mean everybody enjoys it - or should enjoy it.
Ubuntu does something very right in that respect - it works, just works, and is usable.
(And I'm saying this after years of using Debian exclusively, starting with 3.0, Woody. When Ubuntu appeared on the scene I looked at it with suspicion and was not convinced; that took me until 10.04 - and I waited a year before installing that).
Some guy called Linus Torvalds, by the way, seems to be of a similar opinion; quoting from a TechCrunch-Interview last week:
"... but I really think that Ubuntu has generally had the right approach, and been very user-centric."
I can second his opinion from my experience, but, of course, who cares about what Linus Torvalds thinks?
67 • Slackware (by fernbap on 2012-04-24 20:25:34 GMT from Portugal)
I think there are a couple of things that everyone should take into account:
1. One of the most efficient ways of killing a product is by spreading rumours of its demise.
2. Slackware would still be slackware if it had a simple checkbox "include dependencies": yes or no. As simple as that.
If it doesn't, it looks like some fundamentalist minority that likes to be fundamentalist. Slackware would have a much larger userbase with the inclusion of that tiny little checkbox. Which makes me think that slackware users want to be a minority. A pity. There are several kinds of snobs.
68 • Swift Linux 2.0 (by Roy H Huddleston on 2012-04-24 21:20:53 GMT from United States)
Last time I tried Antix it had gotten help from Mepis and was KDE. This version is based on Antix, Debian and Mint. I am downloading it but curious if it will work with the Extension 4. It says LinuxMintDebian which is important since at one time Mint 4 wasn't even part of Ubuntu. Would really like to see a post in the Distrowatch - Especially the Diet version.
69 • Slackware, Dependencies, Userfriendliness (by TobiSGD on 2012-04-24 22:02:56 GMT from Germany)
@54: No, you are not talking about user-friendliness, you are talking about newbie-friendliness. Those two are different. You are right, Slackware is not newbie-friendly. But it is user-friendly to the people that use it and like to use it.
@53,62,67: If you inform your self a bit you will stumble across projects like SlackBuilds.org, sbopkg and slapt-get. SlackBuilds.org delivers a simple and easy solution to install software, sbopkg automates this process and, in combination with queue-files, solves dependencies for you, slapt-get resembles the apt-get tool on Slackware, including dependency resolution. So if you want to have dependency resolution you can have it. It just is not installed by default, for simple reasons:
- Most Slackware users (including me, coming from Ubuntu and Debian I have to say that I really like it) like it that way, including the developers.
- The Slackware repository contains a complete desktop system, including several DEs/WMs, an office suite, media players, ... . The recommended installation type is a full installation. Question: If you install the full repository, which dependencies are there to resolve?
- The Slackware development team is small. Even if they wanted to implement it, who would do the extra work?
One thing I really am astonished about: there are some rumors that Slackware will die (which is totally not true) and instantly a huge amount of people is criticizing it to be not modern and come up with all types of changes that would make Slackware a more popular distro. But why? All distros have their place: If you like to do everything with a GUI go for Ubuntu, Mint, Mepis or whatever so-called "user-friendly" distro. If you want to be cutting edge and build your system from the ground up go for Arch (I wonder why nobody criticizes Arch for not being user-friendly). If you want a stable distro go for Debian, CentOS or, if you need support, RHEL or SLES. If you want the last bit of performance go for Gentoo or other source based distros. No one is forced to use Slackware or any other distro.
So here are the people that want a rock-stable distro that gives them total control of their system. They use Slackware. They like it. And other people like it enough to base their own distros on it, adding features that they miss in Slackware. They don't demand that Slackware has to be changed, they take it and change it like they want.
For those people, the users of Slackware and the developers of derived distros (and may be Linux in general) it would be a sad day when Slackware disappears. Either because of a lack of money or because they change their aims to become a more "user-friendly" distro, which simply wouldn't be Slackware anymore.
So instead of trying to "modernize" Slackware or make it more "user-friendly" just leave it alone or, if you really care about it, donate a few bucks. Would be the simplest and most efficient way.
70 • @65 (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2012-04-24 23:17:34 GMT from United States)
So what if we "average" users are spoiled by PM's like apt, yum, zypper and such. If it make for a much stabler system then I'm all for it. It allows the users to get the necessary package/application without too much fuss. There are ways, especially with APT and its GUI front-ends, that allow you to check whether you want "recommended" and/or "suggested" packages included with the app you want or not (I happened to have them unchecked myself, using Kubuntu and Muon, don't want too much unnecessary packages without sacrificing usability of the application).
71 • If you really believe Slackware is user friendly I have a bridge for you (by Caitlyn Martin on 2012-04-25 00:08:00 GMT from United States)
No, Slackware is NOT user friendly. It takes more work and effort to administer a system with Slackware and I have been doing sysadmin work with *nix professionally since 1995. In addition, there is a dictionary definition of what usability/user friendliness means and Slackware doesn't meet that definition at all.
Don't change Slackware? Fine by me. Don't expect me to use it then. Let it be there for geeks who like to putter under the hood. For the other 99% of us there are distributions designed to allow you to get work done without tinkering.
I am completely convinced that the Slackware community faithful live with blinders on 24/7. Y'all seem utterly incapable of seeing any other point of view and will defend your perfect distribution to the death. Guess what? It's not perfect. It isn't even average.
72 • @69 (by fernbap on 2012-04-25 00:09:18 GMT from Portugal)
"The recommended installation type is a full installation. Question: If you install the full repository, which dependencies are there to resolve?"
You start by saying that slack users want to install precisely what they want, and then you advise them to install the full repository?
Am i the only one seeing a problem here?
73 • Take up the Slack.. (by Bill on 2012-04-25 01:31:01 GMT from United States)
@66 - Amen brother. :)
I've only been using Linux full time for a year and a half. But I've used all the major Distros thanks to DW. As an outsider looking in it sure is surprising how so many can get so protective and fired up about their favorite Distro. One day I decided to give Slack a try. I installed the iso via text, booted up, only to discover I was at the command line with no DE. Okay, I'm game, so I downloaded what I needed (Gnome I think), and got that running only to discover a minimal set of programs. At that point I just sort of said, wtf was that all about? I deleted it and tried another, Arch, I think it was. It didn't make me feel superior just like what's the big deal here? It wasn't for me, but more power to you if you like all that work. I like installing and running firefox or thunderbird. Of course I do compile from GIT the programs no longer supported, but so what?
74 • Slackware and things.. (by Buntunub on 2012-04-25 01:34:12 GMT from United States)
#69 - Ease up. They are right about Slackware being a dinosaur and being out of sorts with "modern" distro's. So what?.. It has its place. Somewhere.. Perhaps someone like you may wish to contribute a server to keep it up and running instead of harassing people on DW. Might be a better use of your time and effort.
Slackware dying.. LOL!!
75 • oh boy... (by somebodyelse on 2012-04-25 04:14:56 GMT from United States)
I have this strange feeling that somebody is going to be taking extra care to slam slackware (very professionally of course) at every opportunity given the recent brou-ha-ha. Wagon-circlers beware!
76 • Slackware down-to-date: Not the issue (by mjjzf on 2012-04-25 11:41:57 GMT from Denmark)
Fun fact: I have used Slackware for ages because it was the easiest way to get new software. Considering the speed the builds were submitted and offered through Slackbuilds.org, I had a lot of fresh software on Slackware the same time as it arrived on Arch.
While I have some hardware-related issues now and therefore do not use Slackware at the moment, there are many ways Slackware remains a powerful package, and I have no doubt that it will have people appreciating that mindset for a long time. As it has been commented above, there is plenty of activity on Slackware-Current changelogs.
Having said that, that is not what this is about - people can be as positive as they like, if they don't give back, that's it. Maybe I should pre-order the next release, just to throw some change in the can.
77 • Slackware (by TobiSGD on 2012-04-25 12:06:05 GMT from Germany)
@71: As I stated before, there are distros for everyone. You feel that Slackware isn't for you? Fine, use one of the other 321 active distros. What is the point in trying to change Slackware, or in your case, actively bitching it down? You think that Slackware isn't even average. Well, you can have your opinion. IMHO, Slackware is the best distro out there. Otherwise I wouldn't use it.
@72: There is no problem here. The users that are complaining about missing dependency resolution are the users that are new to Slackware. If they make the recommended full installation they won't run into dependency problems. If you are experienced enough (and Slackware is a distribution for people willing to RTFM) you can slim down the distribution like you want.
@73: Sometimes it helps to read the documentation. Slackware by default comes with KDE, XFCE, Fluxbox, Blackbox, FVWM2, WindowMaker and TWM. And yes, by default it starts in runlevel 3. A simple "startx" and you would see a fully fledged KDE. No need to install anything.
78 • Lack of community (by Anonymouse on 2012-04-25 13:11:18 GMT from United States)
Wow, one bad word about any distro and it's like feeding time for starving lions around here. I'm glad to see that each distro has it's loyalists that help keep the distros alive and relevant, however the backbiting and lashing out just goes to show why Linux will NEVER dominate the desktop front, even though it runs the world on every other device out there (servers, set top boxes, vehicles etc) Unless we can just agree to disagree and strive to make the platform of Linux better as a whole then it will continue to fail on the desktop front as far as toppling Apple and Microsoft.
Regardless of how for or against a distro is, one thing is clear: work together across all of them to make a stable platform that will rise from the darkness and become relevant on the desktop front as a whole, or be doomed to be a niche that only the diehard techies use.
79 • Is Slack friendly (by lott on 2012-04-25 13:16:40 GMT from Colombia)
Is Slack friendly
What is that?
Linux you say.
It is not a Operating System.
Well!! all I can see is a black screen!!!!
So what is a Operating System?
Well is the little icon that you press and it does something.
So if I put and icon on the desk top it would make an OS!
No you know a bunch of icons that do some thing.
So!! if I put a bunch of icons and make each one do some sort of command that would make it an OS.
Blaa, bla, blaa, bla, blaa, blaa!!
We all defend what we do, we defend Family & Friends, we defend the Town or Country.
We even defend religion, even if we do not go to church..
So what is the Problem.
It is people.!!
“You” ...never look at someones else's point of view...
Are you? right is he?
Are We all right!!
Is Al Bundy wrong for putting his right hand in side his pants.
Is Homer Simpson a simpleton for drooling in front of a donut.
Is The Doctor an idiot for coming back to save earth so many times.
“Well sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.”
Yea yea …. this a Quote, to much TV.
The thing is this …...
I like Slack, BSD, Solaris, Suse, Mandrake, Debian, Ubuntu, I tolerate Windows, and hate unity, & Win8.
What do I use on my PC SLACK, SUSE, DEBIAN. ULTIMATE EDITION, Windows XP Pro & Virtual Box.
And what els everything that gets put out.
Because I evolved in and around PC's, Cars, Airplanes, and Engineering.
This are my toys.
So have some courtesy for me and others that think the same way we do.
In return you will get the same RESPECT for your thoughts.
80 • @46 (and, slightly, 71) (by Pearsno on 2012-04-25 13:41:25 GMT from United States)
"For someone that just wants to do normal web, music, video, etc, (the linux newcomer for instance) (s)he really won't need to install anything beyond what it comes with (assuming the recommended full install is done), so the lack of dependency checking becomes moot. "
Until an update to one of those packages adds a dependency, and the user doesn't read all the notes before updating. That happened to me, and I think it was KDE that broke after I upgraded.
Slackeare is a great system that requires care and attention. I didn't have time for that care and attention, so I had to go to something else. The purity of the system *really* appeals to me.
Patrick has a legitimate reason for not putting in dependencies: what is "required" vs "optional"? It's not always black-or-white, depending on your perspective.
Caitlyn, I wish you wouldn't paint all Slackware enthusiasts with such a broad brush. It doesn't work for you (nor for me). Great. I love your reviews and almost always learn from you (I'm still subscribed to the pekwm list because of one of your articles years ago). However, your assessments of "fanboys" tends to come across as overly-agressive. I still look forward to reading your stuff.
81 • @81... A bit of perspective goes a LONG way (by DavidEF on 2012-04-25 14:47:00 GMT from United States)
Doing something "simple" that you already KNOW how to do is not a bit hard.
Learning how to do something, even when it is "simple" to do, is sometimes hard, and sometimes not worth the effort, especially when there are viable alternatives.
Each one of us makes choices and decisions about what is worth our effort and what is not. To me, switching to Linux O/S from Windows was worth the effort, even though I still get headaches at times. When I first decided to switch, I was on dial-up. I waited EIGHT DAYS for a linux install disc to download. It was literally about 8 x 24 hours or around 192 hours! Then, it didn't work on my hardware. Thankfully, along came Ubuntu, with their Ship-It service. Then, I just had to wait a few weeks for it to arrive in the mail, but at least it would install. I was so ready to get off Windows XP, it was well worth all the effort.
Now, I said all that to say this: Some of the people I introduce to Linux find it not worth the effort, even though I do a complete install and set-up for them. Others have loved it and thrived using it, even though they are not tech-savvy. It "just works" for them. People are unique individuals. To each his/her own. My parents-in-law never had a computer, until I gave them one with Ubuntu installed. Later, I came across a computer that was a little more up-to-date hardware, and had Windows XP installed. I gave them the choice - keep Windows, or I will wipe it and install Ubuntu. Their answer? "We don't want to have to learn anything new. Please install Ubuntu and set it up like we had it before." Needless to say, they will NEVER be Slackware users! And, if I had to do what you just described, as "simple" as you made it seem, I will not ever be a Slackware user either.
82 • @81 (by notsure on 2012-04-25 15:19:01 GMT from United States)
ok, ummm well, my post was wiped, so you're the new 81!
needless to say, it was still quite simple, and was your basic template that you could use if you so desired. but slackers are the defensive type?
83 • DW random comment deletion strikes again... (by DavidEF on 2012-04-25 16:27:19 GMT from United States)
Oh well, such is life!
I'm not in any way trying to defend anyone who puts down Slackware, nor agree with their ideas and opinions. I think BOTH sides of the argument are suffering from lack of perspective. That was the point of what I wrote above. I just thought your latest (now deleted) post was a good example of that loss of perspective.
Although I've not tried Slackware and have no intention of doing so, I'm certain you're right about how "simple" it is to do what your (deleted) post suggested. I'm just saying that some people have no interest in doing anything of the sort, while others may jump at the chance. Some people love to cook things from scratch, others like to cook, as long as there is a mix they can use, others don't cook at all. There is room and provision for all of these types in open source software. That's one of the best features, IMHO, compared to proprietary O/S.
If you don't mind, please repost the "steps" you took installing and setting up Slackware. I'm certain it would be useful to someone who is interested in trying Slackware for the first time.
84 • @83 (by notsure on 2012-04-25 17:07:27 GMT from United States)
soytenly! but one important thing on this slackware usablity theme is that it assumes that you know/want to do what is necessary, or at least take the time to learn. Therefore, criticisms on it's usability seem to fall back onto the user (IMHO)
Slackware Usability Steps
1) Full Install, Select KDE or XFCE as default WM
Choose Exit installer
mount /dev/sr0 /mnt/cdrom # assuming cdrive is sr0
installpkg */*.t?z ### or cherry pick, wicd, google-chrome...
2) Login as root
3) change runlevel from 3 to 4 in /etc/inittab
change to kdm to allow auto-login, pick USERNAME to login
4) wget http://rlworkman.net/conf/firewall/rc.firewall.desktop.generic
change EXT_IF=eth0 to EXT_IF="+" if on laptop
chmod +x rc.firewall.desktop.generic
cp rc.firewall.desktop.generic /etc/rc.d/rc.firewall
5) grab apps from http://taper.alienbase.nl/mirrors/people/alien/slackbuilds/
--note-- RESTRICTED_PACKAGES.TXT for lame/libdvdcss...
6) installpkg *.t?z
8) USERNAME is Auto logged into KDE (due to KDM, logout and choose desired session from KDM Session thingy..)
Applications from taper above, slackbuilds, or download and try sbopkg
If i forgot something, my bad.
85 • Isn't there 1 (64-bit) Debian based distro... (by tek_heretik on 2012-04-25 18:19:34 GMT from Canada)
that will install to my Intel Raid 0 like so many Ubuntu based distros do? Preferably 'out of the box'.
86 • @85 (by notsure on 2012-04-25 19:23:57 GMT from United States)
i believe you would want the amd64 flavor:
87 • Writing a review or at least giving comments on a Distro? (by randy on 2012-04-25 19:31:04 GMT from United States)
I would like to share my thoughts and comments on the different distros and it would be nice to see reviews from users attached to each of the distros you have listed in your system so i can and others can get a feel for the likes and dislikes. I recently came across the Easy Peasy Distro which i needed to install for a Netbook customer and once i installed it, i was pleased with the result as it works without a hitch or issue. I am not looking to write a long review to talk about the whole experience in the different detail areas as you might do on some of the write ups, but more along the lines of going into what i experienced and found as a result of putting it on the PC. I would go further if there is a call or need for that kind of review, but do not know how to share my experiences with different reviews. I was perplexed by a review that was done by an individual a while back on Mepis 11 as the guy wrote about his lack of experience and in ability to test it as opposed to writing about the product and installing it so it could be tested. I tested out the product myself and could have written a much better review and gotten some positive feedback for users as well. I do not have a problem with disliking a distro for any reason, but when you write a review and do not have it in a test condition, it makes no sense to write anything until the first part is done, unless the product is totally a bust and uninstallable. Testing from the CD is not a test.
Anyway i want to share my knowledge which is 40+ years worth and continue to try out new and various systems to benefit my customers. Thanks for maintaining such a great site.
88 • Desktop or not? (reference #79) (by Randy on 2012-04-25 19:52:46 GMT from United States)
I want to say i agree with #79 as he is right. So what makes an OS and what makes a desktop? Even without a desktop you still have an OS regardless. People have forgotten that the OS is just an interface to an application taking advantage of the hardware. The desktop on the other hand is a pretty interface to make using the OS easier and to simplify the usability of the applications and the functions you need the computer to do. How that pretty desktop interface looks and works is an individual style and feel again depending on what your needs are and what you think fits your style. There is no perfect right answer, but i will say since i work with a lot of novice customers, i try to help them with making the simplest interface and desktop environment for them. I may not be a Slack fan, but that does not make it bad or the wrong system for everyone. I do not like the new KDE or the new GNOME desktops interfaces, but that does not make them wrong or right. Personally, i think they have lost touch with the basic idea and concept of the desktop and the general user who uses the interface. How complicated do you want to make it? If you want complicated go back to the dos/text interface so it is all a mystery, the difference is the same.
Slackware has been around since the beginning of the lInux revolution, and it has a great place here to stay. What desktop you use will make all the world of difference as to whether you like or dislike it. We are all very visual, and so pretty is what sells Microsoft and Apple products, so why not here with Linux too?
89 • @80 @84 (by claudecat on 2012-04-25 20:29:22 GMT from United States)
Hmm... well, I guess I was overstating the ease of use thing. Yes, I assumed that upgrading things wouldn't cause dependency issues if a full install was done. I'm sure that (as you alluded to) any such issues were addressed in the changelogs or looking at the output of slackpkg at least. Just goes to show that "worked for me" means little more than just that.
That said, I now track -testing and have had no issues with dependencies ever. Of course I DO check the changelogs etc.
Nice job delineating the necessary steps! I think it's easier to just grab sbopkg from their website and use that for things like flash and lbdvdcss, but to each their own.
Hopefully someone will be inspired to give slack a try that may not have considered it previously. It may nor be 'buntu-easy but it's not rocket science either. I mean, if I can do it...
ps - if you track -testing you have a rolling release essentially (I think someone already mentioned that). No more reinstall (or botched attempt at upgrade) every 6 months! It's worth the few minutes of reading changelogs to avoid that (for me).
90 • Slackware (un)friendlyness (by Anonymous Coward on 2012-04-25 20:43:25 GMT from Spain)
This is written by the guy who administrates the home computer network.
Slackware was not designed for the newbie administrator or for people that don't want to read documentation. I like manuals, so great for me, but not for so many others.
Distributions can be easy or hard to administrate, but they all are used the same by end users, understanding "end users" as the people who uses them but who does not necessarily administrate them. My parents have both Linux and Windows computers, which fulfill their missions, but my relatives are unable to install or configure anything by themselves.
So, do you guess what is the difference between Slackware and some "Alphaware" distro? For my parents, stability and nothing else. LibreOffice and the other tools they use work more or less the same in every distribution. I know the other differences, and I have chosen the distributions I have chosen because of rational reasons I understand but my users don't.
I would say Slackware is great if you are the kind of guy who plays with the system, wants to patch the base system, or does not mind reading manuals if they can get some advantages by doing so. It is also for the kind of guy who has some basic knowledge and just wants to install a distribution full of tools and then forget about it (FULL INSTALL and never think about it again).
Of course, if you want to give someone a computer and he is supposed to administrate that computer the things change, but not by that much. You could install his Slackware, make the preconfiguration and then explain him how does it work, once the desktop was running. Day to day administration is not really that complex, if you can do it in *buntu you can learn to do it in Slackware very fast.
If you have no Unix/Linux experience and you get there alone, then setting up an Slackware system with no help means you are very determinated, or just masochist.
Final words: There are many buggy systems (no names, no flames) that claim to be user friendly and even enjoy that reputation. When I have seen those systems used by "end users" (people who does not administrate), it usually ends with the end users complaining about "This thing is hard to use", "Damn, this bug has eaten my data" etc. There is much more in user friendliness than reputation for me. I think Slackware is more friendly than any other "User friendly" distribution that corrupts your /boot filesystem and lets you alone with the problem... which is not to say that there are not more appropriate distributions for Linux beginers.
After all, how user friendly is to boot a LiveCD, mount the affected system and repair it, chroot included?
91 • @89 (by notsure on 2012-04-25 20:49:19 GMT from United States)
that is the exact reason i mentioned using the -current, even though it is relatively stable, be aware that bad things can and probably will happen occasionally.
For instance, i have an older laptop, and recently installed slack1337, then upgraded to -current. PAE is not supported (in my 32bit cpu) and the kernel didn't like that (switched to the non-SMP kernel is all it took to fix it).
i'd agree that sbopkg would be advisable for someone wanting an auto-compile/install, i've never tried it though. alien's repositories do have pre-compiled binary apps in them, again, it's up to the su how to do it. when i tried ubuntu (7 years ago) i fought more with it than i ever have with slackware ;^)
92 • Huh?.. (by Buntunub on 2012-04-25 21:10:07 GMT from United States)
78 - "however the backbiting and lashing out just goes to show why Linux will NEVER dominate the desktop front"
I lost track how many times now I have seen this line. Its rubbish. Nonsense. Like the Windows "community" is somehow the model of decor and civility... The community responses here on DW have zero bearing on any given distro's success or failure. That my friend is entirely on that Distro's success or failure to hold on to its community based upon their own quality and performance. I think its safe to say that the vast majority of Desktop Linux users don't even register for forums and rarely if ever bother to actually read any posts in them.
93 • AtlasX (by forlin on 2012-04-26 00:29:08 GMT from Portugal)
Good news about the arrival of a new Enlightenment Distro and bad news about knowing they had some problems with their servers at this crucial start up stage. The distro hoppers out there hope the people involved will sort it out quickly in order that we can start pearing on AtlasX, giving advice, suggestions and encouraging the project.
E17 is a fantastic windowing system and we all hope that a new distro using it, will contribute to the very much needed developers, contributing upstream.
94 • Orca in LMDE MATE (by azurehi on 2012-04-26 04:44:14 GMT from United States)
Linux Mint Debian Edition 201204 with MATE and Cinnamon was released recently. I like the distribution, particularly MATE, but cannot get Orca screenreader to speak as I type, even though I have enable the preferences. When using a Gnome distro and Hotmail in Firefox, I can have each character/letter spoken. My wife is partially sighted and this is very useful for her.
Any ideas what I might do in MATE to enable this? Thanks.
95 • slackel live DVD 32-bit (by gnomic on 2012-04-26 10:25:00 GMT from New Zealand)
Anybody had a good experience using this in a live session? Every time I try it on various Pentium M era laptops with 1 gig of RAM the system slows to a crawl quite rapidly and eventually becomes unusable. Is this a case of just not enough computing resource for KDE4, or is there something a bit odd about Slackel?
96 • 95 • slackel live DVD 32-bit (by mandog on 2012-04-26 12:14:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've run and installed both 32 and 64bit with no problems at all
its seems to be based on Salix if you use the install disc instead of the live disc it is Salix.
97 • AtlasX @93 (by Patrick on 2012-04-26 16:08:08 GMT from United States)
For those trying to download the new AtlasX and having problems, I have mirrored the AtlasX ISO on my website. Click on my name, it links to my site. Then in the right bar there is a link to the AtlasX image, below the Raspberry Pi images.
98 • Re: 71 (by aperson on 2012-04-26 16:33:13 GMT from United States)
Nobody is asking you to use Slackware. You need not be so defensive or disparage others who hold a different point of view. Simply use what works for you. Some people like to not only drive a car but also putter around under the hood. They still get to their destination.
In addition, learn to disagree without being disagreeable.
99 • @97 Patrick (by LinuxFreak on 2012-04-26 17:34:14 GMT from Germany)
Thank you very much for sharing your mirror of the AtlasX iso with us. I'm downloading right now, and it's a very speedy download indeed. On the AtlasX website the iso is currently not available again.
100 • Really? (by anonimoose on 2012-04-26 19:33:26 GMT from United States)
@92 Windows community? what community? I'm focused on my OS/Kernel of choice: Linux. All this xx distro is better or worse than yy distro is just one example of why Linux fails to break free of the niche. If Linux was to unify into just one platform with just 1 or at most 2 distros that were mainstream and could compete against Windows and Mac, but it won't until all this "distro for every other special program" crap goes away it also won't happen that we grow. I'm all for Linux and I will always use it, but until all this "my distro of choice is better than yours" we're no better than all the iFanboys. But then if you read my entire post you would have understood that. I guess it's too much to actually read comments in their fullest before posting attacking comments to other people. This is also why DW is good for only one thing: seeing what distros are out there. 'rankings' are pure BS. Last advice: Get over yourselves and your fanboyishness for your distro of choice and work to make the OS/Kernel top dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
101 • @ 97 re AtlasX Mirror (by forlin on 2012-04-26 19:53:09 GMT from Portugal)
Would you mind provide a direct link?
102 • My take on the influence of the Linux desktop (by Caitlyn Martin on 2012-04-26 21:02:23 GMT from United States)
Sorry to interrupt the recent arguments, but I have a new article on the influence the Linux desktop has had and continues to have. Oh, and sorry, but I don't take sides in the dispute about whether Unity is the best thing since sliced bread or the worst disaster ever to befall a desktop :) http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2012/04/the-new-desktop-paradigm-blame.html
Oh, and yes, this is shameless self-promotion :)
103 • @101 (by Patrick on 2012-04-26 21:23:43 GMT from United States)
"No way"? What are you afraid of?
Whatever. Here's a direct link, if you don't want to spare the waiter any change:
The link is also up on the AtlasX website.
104 • 103 (by forlin on 2012-04-26 23:52:56 GMT from Portugal)
of course I'm afraid pc implodes as a kzar bomb
105 • AtlasX installed (by RollMeAway on 2012-04-27 05:32:20 GMT from United States)
Thanks to Patrick (Thank You) I finally got the DVD, and installed AtlasX.
To my surprise the new install booted to gnome2. I logged out and selected enlightenment when logging back in.
It is a full gnome2 with evolution, openoffice and all the expected gnome applications.
This will give those experienced with gnome2 the means to configure their new installation to suite personal preferences, before logging into enlightenment. Nice touch!
Also familiar applications for whatever you wish to do. A fully functional installation.
*** Are you listening bodhi ? ***
2nd surprise was E17:69791 changeset. That means it is a very recent version of enlightenment, not 2009 like debian provides.
Ran out of time for the evening, will get into e17 details tomorrow evening.
Looks promising so far.
106 • @105 - Bloathi (by Uncle Slacky on 2012-04-27 10:39:44 GMT from France)
If Bodhi is too minimal for you, there's always Bloathi - see: http://forums.bodhilinux.com/index.php?/topic/4748-bloathi-linux-140/
(ISO here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bloathilinux/files/ )
107 • buntus (by corneliu on 2012-04-27 11:30:10 GMT from Canada)
Hey, lots of buntus there. We are still waiting for Aubuntu, Bubuntu, Cubuntu, Dubuntu etc. And when we run out of latin letters we can use some Chinese or Greek. We've got plenty of letters.
108 • Buntu, buntu, buntu... (by DavidEF on 2012-04-27 12:22:45 GMT from United States)
@107 LOL Yep, and don't forget the multiboot compilation DVD, LotsaBuntu! Well, at least it shows that Ubuntu is STILL a very popular O/S, even if it is just as a base.
109 • @107 (by fernbap on 2012-04-27 13:39:58 GMT from Portugal)
The one really missing is Gubuntu, the one with gnome....
110 • @109 gnome Ubuntu (by Vic on 2012-04-27 15:39:27 GMT from United States)
It'll be there next month under the name Mint....
111 • @108 & @109 Gubuntu, with gnome... (by DavidEF on 2012-04-27 17:01:41 GMT from United States)
I've heard Gnome 3 is pretty easy to install in Ubuntu 12.04, and the good ole Classic mode is there for the more "Traditional" desktop lovers. Actually, I thought I also read once that there is an Ubuntu Gnome 3 remix available, if you don't want to go through the trouble of installing it yourself. So, Gubuntu already lives, although I don't think that is the name of the remix distro.
Now, if you really want Gnome 2 and Gnome 3 Classic Mode ain't close enough, then I guess Mint with MATE it is! No need to wish for something that is already available, in any case.
112 • Oops, I meant @109 & @110 doggonnit! (by DavidEF on 2012-04-27 17:04:34 GMT from United States)
I wish the comments would stop moving around so much. Oh Well!
113 • Re:85 and @86 (Intel Raid install) (by tek_heretik on 2012-04-28 08:08:48 GMT from Canada)
Right after I posted that, Kubuntu released 12.04 LTS, nice, sweet polished distro running from 4x320GB drives in Raid 0 mode (Intel ICH10R). The trick is, and I kid you not, use a disk utility like Seagate's and 'setup' the newly created Raid drive volume (aka, give it a partion and MBR FIRST) for Win-doh(s) (in my case, XP + SP1 or greater). it would appear a freshly created volume using the Intel raid bios utility is too raw for the disk setup apps on the Kubuntu disk (and many other distros for that matter), but the installer LOVES overwriting pre-existing Win-doh(s) MBRs and partitions. =)
114 • Ubuntu 12.04... (by Edna Crabapple on 2012-04-28 15:21:58 GMT from United States)
I've gotten blasted here for criticizing Unity.
So I downloaded Ubuntu 12.04 to try the Gnome fallback mode.
I installed Ubuntu (to a flash card, not my hard drive).
I tried Unity again, I still really, really don't like it. I could never use it. It isn't for me.
Fallback is somewhat different than Gnome 2, but I could live with it if I could get it to work properly. I don't like the unnecessary alt+right click to change anything on the panel, but that is a very minor quibble.
I installed Synaptic, and installed a couple of things, but many others displayed "package broken" messages.
I also can't get the computer to shut down. Trying to shut down or restart just logs me out and dumps me back at a login box. I can't shut down from there either, all I can do is enter my password and log back in.
I have to shut down the computer by holding the power button down.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong. It's possible.
I'm sure I'll get criticized again, but to me Ubuntu 12.04 with all these bugs just feels like a poorly conceived alpha release. At least the "fallback" mode does.
Unity desktop doesn't give me shut down issues... but the fallback mode is just- well- lacking. And if it's going to take a bunch of CLI tweaks and hacks and scripts to get it working properly- all I can say is no thanks. That kind of thing should not be necessary.
This is my opinion, and if Ubuntu works for other people then more power to them. But if Ubuntu is being presented as more "user friendly" then I have to laugh...
I'll keep using Xubuntu until Ubuntu works properly. Not that I'm exactly crazy about XFCE, but at least it works properly.
This is MY experience, YMMV. But at least I gave it a try before criticizing it- again.
115 • @ *** Are you listening bodhi ? *** (by forlin on 2012-04-28 21:00:02 GMT from Portugal)
Bodhi is/was a winning project: E17 on top of ubunto. Problem is on the top/top: not a developer, nor a geek. More competition, in this case, from AtlasX, will be good for both of them, and mainly, for Enlightenment.
116 • Ubuntu 12.04 (by greg on 2012-04-28 22:07:42 GMT from United States)
This board is pretty quiet about the new Ubuntu. I haven't been able to get the live cd to work on my old computer, so I can't say if it's good or not.
117 • RE: 114 (by mcellius on 2012-04-29 00:46:11 GMT from United States)
I don't think you got criticized simply for disliking Unity. Honestly, I don't think anyone really cares or minds: some people prefer one desktop environment, while others prefer another. If I recall correctly, the criticism had to do with HOW you expressed your feelings: in hyperbolic language that seemed to express and foster an unreasoned and unreasonable hatred for Unity, Ubuntu, and all things related. (If I have that chain of comments confused with those of another, please forgive me.)
Otherwise, it seems that Ubuntu just isn't for you. Failures, bugs, problems, everywhere you look. Maybe your hardware just isn't compatible for some reason, I don't know, because so far almost all the reviewers report that it works very well, indeed, with few bugs and problems, and that reflects my own experience. If you wanted it to work on your hardware, I'm sorry that it didn't for you, but it's nice to know that for most people the new Ubuntu seems to be a very solid and positive experience.
118 • (?)Ubuntu 12.04 / Specialized review series (by Vic on 2012-04-29 00:57:51 GMT from Canada)
Tested Ubuntu and a few of it's variants (X/Lubuntu) just from live usb for about 20 minutes each. Not long enough to have much of an opinion but was happy with my brief time running each. They all felt relatively stable and decently polished in that short period. Again not exactly much testing worth gauging a final verdict on. Still don't think Unity is going to be a winner with me. I want to like it. Unfortunately for ever feature that I like about it there is something else which rubs me wrong making it not my first choice in DE. I'll install it first to give it a fair shot but I don't see it staying for long. I find going to the top panel for the menu bar on a window that isn't maximized very counter intuitive. Should probably take the time to make an official bug report on that if it hasn't been done already...
On a side note I'd like to add that I appreciate the NAS series of reviews. Jesse, you are doing a wonderful job as always! In fact I hope you carry this further and continue to do series of comparison type reviews on other types of specialized distros. For example a series on live rescue editions. Of course I leave it up to what your interests and agenda will allow between the usual coverage's of the latest and greatest releases.
Thanks again Distrowatch team for all your hard work. I always enjoy my visits to the site!
119 • Ubuntu upgrade frivolity (by claudecat on 2012-04-29 06:45:03 GMT from United States)
I was lazy enough to attempt to upgrade my existing 11.10 (64) install on my laptop (Acer Ferrari One 200 - AMD Radeon HD3200 GPU). It was not totally unsuccessful, but left me unable to use Unity other than in 2d mode - just a mouse cursor and wallpaper for regular Unity mode. While I was initially impressed by the new "leaner and meaner" look and feel, I soon realized that yes, there probably should be a panel on top and a launcher on the left :=}. I immediately (not really - many hours later) tried using the Additional Drivers thingy, which failed to install the topmost option, then successfully installed the other option. After a reboot, still no regular ol' Unity. The wallpaper however, is more orange than it was before, so it's not a total loss.
In all seriousness, it almost worked! I'm thinking the new kernel isn't really playing nice with the video driver and/or xorg, but I'll know more (or not) when I wipe it all out and reinstall sometime when I feel less lazy. I rarely use stock Ubuntu, I just keep it around to see what it's up to lately, so it may be a while...
btw - @118 - Unless I'm misreading what you're saying (entirely possible - still agog after having stood less than ten feet away from Hank Aaron earlier today) that panel/top menu bar stuff is (amusingly) a feature, not a bug. They actually want it to do that!
120 • @119 regarding my comment on Unity's menu bar (by Vic on 2012-04-29 12:14:46 GMT from United States)
That was written in partial sarcasm. I realize it is the intended design. Just feel that it is only a functional feature if it occurs only when a window is maximized. Having to remember which scaled window had in focus and traveling the mouse pointer from said active window up to the top bar to access the menu just seems very counter intuitive.
Really what do I know though, I'm just an average user...
121 • ubuntu's newest (by Kevin size on 2012-04-29 12:21:03 GMT from United States)
For several months now, I have trying my hardest to use ubuntu......but I really do not like the new desktop interfaces they present to us users. Some people have written that they really like it. Well, personally, I do not. I would rather use the regular gnome desktop with Mint or Debian. I would like to make a resounding suggestion to Canonical and get back to where the heart of Ubuntu was. If you really want to attract a large userbase and appeal to all types of people.....please give us back the good Gnome desktop interfaces, with all of our menues and varity of ways to customize anything and everything. You guys are just dumbing things down. Please work on fixing the problems that have plagued linux for years, before you throw in a whole batch of new bugs that mosr users do not want. A tablet stlye interface is good for a tablet or smartphone...BUT NOT for a true production machine. Please stop this track that you are on.
122 • Ubuntu 12.04 (by Edna Crabapple on 2012-04-29 14:16:55 GMT from United States)
RE: #117 @mcellius-
I tried Unity again, I dislike it as much as before. This time I tried to express my feelings in a more suitable manner.
My hardware is fine. The main machine I'm testing this on is an Acer TimelineX laptop with 4GB's of ram and a core i7 cpu. The hardware is fine.
The one thing I *DO* like about the "buntus in general is the fact that out of all the numerous Linux distros- the 'buntu's are the only ones that work OOB with the miserable problematic Broadcom wifi in that laptop.
That being said, if I run Ubuntu 12.04 on that laptop, it doesn't exhibit all these issues when I am using the Unity DE. It loads up fine, it shuts down fine. The problems arise in the Gnome fallback mode.
I wanted the fallback mode to work, because as I stated- I'm not all that thrilled with XFCE. XFCE seems a bit primitive to me. I had much better configuration options and nicer applets in Gnome 2. I was hoping Gnome 3 fallback might come close, but until the bugs are fixed I'll never be able to really test it.
TBH- it seems that with Unity there is no middle ground. Most people either love it- or hate it.
Unfortunately, I'm in the latter camp.... :-)
123 • Unity (by Edna Crabapple on 2012-04-29 15:57:54 GMT from United States)
RE: #121 @Kevin size:
I totally agree with what you said.
I don't understand why Canonical can't make Unity *configurable*, so that users can set it up the way they like it, in a manner that is in accord with their workflow. Why does Unity have to be locked down the way it is? That is not the Linux way.
I've tried more than once to use Unity, and I just can't. Fallback mode is not only a PITA to get to, it doesn't work properly. It's almost like they don't want you to use it.
Why have bookmarks in a browser? So that with one, maybe two clicks, you can get to where you need to go.
What's the difference between a bookmark in a browser, or a menu on your desktop. Both give you the ability to get to where you want to be with a couple of clicks.
I know my menus, I know where stuff is. I can find it easily with a menu. Using search is unintuitive for me.
Can you imagine if your browser didn't have bookmarks and worked like this? Instead of clicking on a bookmark you had to enter part of the URL to get to every site you wanted to go to? It would be a lot of extra work, but no more so than the method Unity provides for a user to get to their desired applications. Yet this is presented as being more user friendly.
Sorry, I just don't see it. It may be more user friendly for Grandma or Little Johnny, who just want to open a browser or play a game, but it certainly isn't more friendly to those of us who do real work on our computers, and who want to set them up in a manner that works for us.
Unity is like a room full of furniture that is bolted down to the floor and that you can't rearrange. Everything you need is there, but you can't customize it.
If you trip over the coffee table and break your leg, too bad. It stays where it is because someone else thinks it should.
124 • Unity (by tdockery97 on 2012-04-29 17:13:21 GMT from United States)
RE: #123 @ Edna Crabapple: Thank you. I've never heard it said more clearly than you stated above. I wanted to like Unity, I really did. But no matter how hard I tried, I found it to be the most non-intuitive desktop I've ever tried. Every operation seemed more difficult to accomplish than they did using DE's such as the old Gnome 2, KDE, or Xfce. I know, if I don't like it don't complain about it, just use another DE that I prefer. I am. But enough voices need to be heard so that developers will realize that they are heading down a road that a large number of users don't want to travel.
125 • Unity... (by Edna Crabapple on 2012-04-29 18:16:31 GMT from United States)
RE: #124 @tdockery97:
I wanted to like it as well. I've tried more than once, and given up. It just isn't for me. I agree that it is the most unintuitive desktop I have ever tried also.
I find it worse than Vista, and Windows 7, neither of which I like either- but at least they have a menu. You can find your way around. The GUI is not completely alien like Unity is.
I also find it somewhat disturbing that Canonical is dropping support for the other 'buntu distro's such as Kubuntu.
I don't think we're complaining, we're having a civil and polite discussion of the shortcomings of Unity as we see them.
Will the developer's listen? Who knows. Probably not. They seem to have blinders on when it comes to Gnome 3 and Unity.
126 • @122 (by greg on 2012-04-29 21:55:32 GMT from United States)
Edna, it's hard to predict what other people may, or may not like. However, have you ever tried Linux Mint Debian Edition? Some people like KDE.
127 • Unity (by greg on 2012-04-29 21:56:52 GMT from United States)
Pictures (ie. icons) are easier to remember than names (ie, HUD). How many times have you seen someone that you can remember the face, but not the name.
128 • RE: 127 (by mcellius on 2012-04-29 23:57:32 GMT from United States)
I agree with you, but that doesn't have much to do with the HUD. One doesn't use it to launch applications (which usually involve icons), but to make menu choices (which are usually just words). I don't think Ubuntu has done a very good job yet of explaining the difference between the Dash and the HUD, but maybe it's something that has to be experienced to be understood. Then again, I don't think Ubuntu has finished working on it, either; it's still new, and subject to improvement.
At first I didn't see the HUD as being very useful, but as I've messed with it I've found that in some situations - by no means all! - it provides a pretty good way of improving my efficiency (making it less necessary for me to remove a hand from the keyboard and use the mouse). In my opinion, it'll never make a good replacement for the usual way of accessing menus, but as another choice alongside menus it can be pretty powerful. In other words, I think it's nice as a choice; it wouldn't be nice as a necessity.
129 • LMDE (by Edna Crabapple on 2012-04-29 23:59:48 GMT from United States)
RE: #126 @greg:
Greg- actually yes, I have tried Linux Mint Debian.
I tried the 201109 edition, the one previous to this new version. I was using the XFCE DE. I actually liked it quite a lot, but being a rolling release, I found it to be a bit unstable. I had it installed on this laptop for a couple of months before switching to Xubuntu.
The switch to Xubuntu actually wasn't planned. I had an upgrade pack for LMDE go completely haywire on me and it hosed my install.
Xubuntu 12.04 beta 2 had just been released, so I figured I would just give it a try before reinstalling LMDE.
Anyway, long story short- Xubuntu 12.04, even though it's a beta, has been so stable and bug free on this computer I kept it on here.
You can't beat the 'buntu's for being compatible with my rotten Broadcom wifi. I can get it to work in LMDE, and other Debian distro's but it's a bit of a PITA. I like it much better when something works OOB. :-)
I use Mint 11 on my other little notebook, and since support ends for that distro in October, I'll be looking to install something new on that one too.
Which distro, I haven't decided yet. I might give the new LMDE a shot. :-)
130 • Ubuntu 12.04 (by Jilmaart on 2012-04-30 03:48:44 GMT from France)
I cannot understand why some of you are crybabies. When a system is getting better, one has to be happy. One's kids grow up and one's is happy, just the same Ubuntu is grown up and continue to grow up.
So, be happy with the Unity interface, which is looking at a new horizon, OR leave Ubuntu and go somewhere. There are enough distros other than Ubuntu.
131 • Ubuntu's Dashboard (by Arun on 2012-04-30 03:55:19 GMT from Sri Lanka)
The Dashboard or HUD is one of the very good things Ubuntu had come up with. Just like when you buy a new car, you have to use it for sometime to get the engine going well, so why not use Ubuntu 12.04 without grumbling for few weeks, before you go to another distro?
You might not go to another distro, you know!
It is FREE!
Number of Comments: 131
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