| DistroWatch Weekly
|Linux Foundation Training
|Reader Comments • Jump to last comment
1 • Life with Debian Squeeze (by manmath sahu on 2011-06-27 08:12:24 GMT from India) |
These days I don't care whither Ubuntu canon goes. Debian Squeeze with backports, debian multimedia and a host of projects like debian mozilla guarantee me running a rock solid yet fairly modern desktop. As of now I am running squeeze with libreoffice 3.4, iceweasel 5, icedove 3.1.10 on top of kernel 2.6.38. It's way faster than natty. Also more solid.
2 • Mageia the Magnificent? (by Robert Fox on 2011-06-27 09:47:39 GMT from Germany)
As a long standing Mandriva (Mandrake) user - I applaud the efforts of Mageia and look forward to the next release to see how things will develop with this newly born Distro - I remain cautiously optimistic . . and wish nothing but success for the Mageia team!
3 • Ubuntu... (by LizA on 2011-06-27 09:48:47 GMT from New Zealand)
I've got to agree with the opinion on Ubuntu.... the difference being that I use it only when I have to now - and I'm now evaluating other distro's for business use.
They seem to want to make it a kiddies toy - pandering to those who can't comprehend anything more than a smartphone. That's fine - but I'll go elsewhere for my linux fix - especially when the list of known issues for each release reads more like a list of showstoppers that would prevent any other group releasing their product.
Give us a linux we can use - that doesn't look like an alpha released by shakespeare's monkeys..... and which we can actually use!
4 • Mageia with Gnome (by stupid me on 2011-06-27 10:11:42 GMT from United States)
I recently tried Mageia myself, but I picked the Gnome desktop environment instead of KDE. I agree with pretty much everything in this review, from the installer to the package manager and theming. The presentation is very well done, and I may have considered making it my main distro if I weren't so fond of Synaptic and the huge Debian repos. I actually found it to be pretty responsive, though. I definitely wouldn't call it laggy. I'd say it's on par with my Crunchbang/Wheezy install with Window Maker and Openbox, though I mostly just browse the web and play with QEMU (which I didn't do in Mageia), but I never noticed any lag.
I did have similar problems getting the package manager to update from the repos, because the DVD installer didn't update them during the install. I don't remember how I got it working in the end, but I did, and I felt very accomplished.
The only real problem I had with Mageia was a lack of packages in the repos, but that's not a huge deal at this point. Packages will come as the distro matures, and it seems to be maturing quickly.
I personally think that Mageia 1 is a great start, and Mageia 2 should blow it out of the water. Could it make me give up Debian with Apt? Maybe, if the people currently maintaining Window Maker compile some RPMs or I finally take the time to learn how to sync with git and compile my own (yes, I realize basing my use of a distro on a window manager is kind of petty, but I really like Window Maker). I really want to see Mageia succeed. Mandrake was my first Linux distro, and it will always have a spot in my heart.
5 • Clarification for Comment #4 (by stupid me on 2011-06-27 10:23:31 GMT from United States)
I want to clarify my comment about the maintainers of Window Maker compiling RPMs. Window Maker is already in the Mageia Repos (as it should be; Mandrake introduced me to WMaker). However, the release in the Mageia repos (and any other distro's official repos) is 0.92, which is three to five years old. Apparently, the lead maintainer(s?) left or something, and development stalled after 0.92, but now, someone has picked up development and is readying a 0.94 release. It's mostly bugfixes, but it has a few new features as well. Anyone interested should check out the Liquid Lemur distribution at liquidlemur.org, as it ships with a relatively up-to-date version of Window Maker.
6 • Goodbye Ubuntu, hello Slackware (by Microlinux on 2011-06-27 10:37:46 GMT from France)
I second your strong opinions on Ubuntu. I'm running a small IT company based exclusively on Linux and FOSS. Until recently, the company's services were based on a mix of either CentOS/Fedora, or Ubuntu/Kubuntu LTS. Around early June, I just got so fed up with Ubuntu's and CentOS' shortcomings - inability to communicate, innovation frenzy, nonsense features, regressions - that I decided to move all my company's services to Slackware 13.37. Now everything JustWorks(tm), and I sleep well at night.
7 • Ubuntu.... (by Gregorovich on 2011-06-27 10:49:47 GMT from Russia)
I have been drifting away from Ubuntu each day for many months
At first I thought that the problem was in me and I should change myself.
I thought that I was too reactionary, and should open myself to new things.
I thought that I just failed to cope with Ubuntu's numerous (supposedly user friendly) know-hows.
I thought that I was hostile to all new because I got used to Gnome's easiness and simplicity.
But with Unity I finally understood that I cannot use out-of-the box Ubuntu any more.
8 • Ubuntu (by M1ka on 2011-06-27 10:52:22 GMT from Italy)
+1 Jesse Smith on ubuntu!
I could add 100 reasons why i will nevermore use ubuntu.
A lot of great distros around...Kanotix one of them.
9 • @1 running squeeze with libreoffice 3.4, iceweasel 5, (by Curious on 2011-06-27 11:20:22 GMT from Australia)
>>As of now I am running squeeze with libreoffice 3.4, iceweasel 5, icedove 3.1.10 on top of kernel 2.6.38. It's way faster than natty. Also more solid.<<
Just curious about which Debian repos provide the latest firefox and TBird updates?
10 • Ubuntu, Mageia, and others. (by Dr.Saleem Khan on 2011-06-27 11:28:18 GMT from Pakistan)
I know freedom of choice is what is all about linux distribution with every project offering some uniqueness in itself . But If some people are fine with using windows, Macos and other operating systems and they stick to one they use why can`t we just stick to one main stream distro which offers almost everything for everyone? Perhaps too many distros to get kind of greedy or too many options to choose from ?
There are distros like Arch Linux, Sabayon, Foresight , Frugalware , Debian , ALT Linux Sisyphus , PCLinuxOS and Slackware who are in market for years , have huge numbers of users and are always latest and rolling release except Slackware . Why not use anyone of these and just go on with what we want from an operating system on our pcs than to taste everyone and get nothing out of anyone??
Just confused and curious what do we get due to the choice of freedom and what is the cost of it ?
11 • Dear Ubuntu (by kenjaminicus on 2011-06-27 11:39:36 GMT from United States)
Amen, I second that. If they chose not to change course it is there right.
Like me you will have to choose whether to stay on board, jump ship, or build a new ship.
Unfortunately the market is not driven by what is good for the consumers. It based on what do they need or what can we make them think they need and then how do we profit from it.
It may be a harsh reality but it is a practice we all do on some scale everyday of our lives.
12 • Ubuntu (by Toolz on 2011-06-27 11:46:21 GMT from Vietnam)
Like it, Jesse. Perhaps next week you might cover Mozilla/Firefox.
13 • RE: 5 • Clarification for Comment #4 (by Béranger on 2011-06-27 11:52:11 GMT from Romania)
WindowMaker-0.94.0 is highly unofficial. Highly! There is no upstream where an official 0.94 tarball could be retrieved from! Nobody seems to know who made the patches from 0.92 to 0.94.
The only acceptable source I could find was
but I don't like the fact that in the .spec file the original windowmaker.info source is mentioned. What the heck, *where* did they D/L the 0.94 tarball from?!
14 • Mageia Package Manager (by dragonmouth on 2011-06-27 12:15:26 GMT from United States)
When a few weeks ago I questioned the need for each distro to reinvent the wheel by developing its own versions of a universally used packages (such as package manager or media player) rather than adopting and/or adapting a package that has already been proven to work, I was told, in no uncertain terms, that choice is the hallmark of Linbux and that if distro developers want to develop a new program, that is their prerogative. Now that this choice has bitten you in the butt, Jesse, don't you think Mageia should be using Synaptic or an adapted Ubuntu Software Center? Don't you think Mageia should have replaced Amarok with a better working package?
15 • Firefox (by Jesse on 2011-06-27 12:17:19 GMT from Canada)
Hi all, thanks for all the positive feedback. It's appreciated. Right now I'm looking for some new distributions and applications to review, so if you've got a favourite we haven't covered in a while, let me know. By e-mail, preferably.
Regarding Firefox, I was indeed thinking of doing a follow-up on Firefox/Mozilla. Their recent move to a rapid release schedule and their decision to no longer maintain a stable branch definitely rubs me the wrong way. I used to recommend Firefox to people as a solid, stable browser that would work with just about anything. Now, though, it seems they are so caught up in copying whatever Chrome does they've completely lost sight of what made Firefox an appealing option in the first place. Firefox is now a moving target, making it harder to support, plug-ins are breaking and soon it won't be possible to get just security fixes without also getting a bunch of new (untested) features. I really have to wonder what the developers were thinking with this move.
I think it'll be interesting to see how distributions react. Long term support releases (Debian, RHEL and Ubuntu LTS) are going to be stuck between either trying to keep up with the latest releases or maintaining their own stable branch of Firefox.
16 • Ubuntu - too modern? (by mecanic on 2011-06-27 12:36:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ubuntu users who don't want to chop and change every six months should stick to the long term support releases - the current one is 10.04, supported for three years on the desktop. Leave the innovation to those who like bleeding edge systems and are prepared to tweak them to make them acceptable.
17 • Firefox (by Mark on 2011-06-27 12:57:34 GMT from Japan)
I posted a comparison of Firefox and Chrome a while ago on my blog. I want to support Firefox because its much more... community oriented than Chrome is, despite both theoretically being open source projects. I don't hate Google, but I wish Firefox could compete with Chrome in terms of speed and reliability. I wonder where its headed... I remember seeing Chrome taking huge market share from all the others basically since it came out.
To sum that up, yes, please do a feature on Firefox.
18 • @9 (by Kabloink on 2011-06-27 13:19:06 GMT from United States)
You can find the latest firefox and thunderbird rebranded for Debian at http://mozilla.debian.net/
iceweasel = firefox
icedove = thunderbird
19 • Mageia (by Jesse on 2011-06-27 13:24:25 GMT from Canada)
>> "Now that this choice has bitten you in the butt, Jesse, don't you think Mageia should be using Synaptic or an adapted Ubuntu Software Center?"
Short answer: no. I've used the Mandriva Software Manager in the past and it's usually a good, stable tool with good features and excellent interface. Granted, this time around there were problems, specifically with setting up sources. However, the issues I ran into with MSM can be fixed fairly easily. The Mageia team could tweak configuring sources, add some progress info, test it and have everything corrected inside a week. And I have little doubt they'll have their package issues fixed before version 2 comes out. Porting something like Synaptic or USC, which use different source configurations and different package formats, would take a great deal longer. Copying something like that over would be non-trivial in time, effort and testing. It would be like chopping your arm off to trim your fingernails.
>> "Don't you think Mageia should have replaced Amarok with a better working package?"
Since I said exactly that in my review, I'm surprised to had to ask. Amarok makes for a poor default, in my opinion. Fortunately it's easy to install any number of other music players, so it's not a big deal. As much as I would like them to switch media players, it takes all of about 45 seconds to install my favourite music player, so I'm not too concerned about it.
I think I just said everything I had to say about Firefox in my above post.
20 • Ubuntu (by rich52 on 2011-06-27 13:41:49 GMT from United States)
Change for the sake of change is a bad idea. This is the problem with both UNITY and GNOME 3. Taking away the best idea's and dumbing down the OS shell interface hasn't change my mind to stick with either of them. I'm happy to say that I'm now using KDE. PC tablet cloud software has it's place and it's not with desktop computers. My desktop system is a work tool and not to be confused with a tablet that has all it's useful functions stripped away for simplistic web browsing , email and Facebook chatter. It's too bad everyone has jumped onto this 'New' and 'Improved' bandwagon only to loose a vast majority of the serious desktop users using Linux. If I thought we were headed in 'New' direction, I should have stayed with Windows.
21 • Mageia (by DaveC on 2011-06-27 14:14:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
I "updated" my Mandriva to Mageia over the weekend. I use Gnome so chose that version. I wasn't impressed with the fonts used, I suppose that I could have changed them with a bit of effort. My main problem was with repositories and loading software via the package manager. After some time I did manage to increase the available software but at no time could I download any internet software. I especially wanted Thunderbird which I'd had in Mandriva but could not find a way of installing via the package manager.
I'm back with Mandriva at present but looking at other distros.
22 • @16: Ubuntu - too modern? (by cba on 2011-06-27 14:22:42 GMT from Germany)
To be honest: I am still using Hardy on one of my machines, side by side with OpenSuse 11.1 Evergreen. As you all know, there is still something like a 300 packages base support in Hardy, called "server edition". Apart from this, I'll try to find and fix obvious bugs myself although it is highly probable that I could fail in doing so.
I am totally fed up with updating and breaking my productivity, especially on machines with Nvidia graphics. In this regard, Lucid, Squeeze and OpenSuse 11.4 were a horrible experience.
The OpenSuse Evergreen project is also my suggestion for a future Distrowatch review:
23 • Ubuntu (by AEN on 2011-06-27 14:23:09 GMT from United States)
While I agree with most everything said, I am puzzled by all of the chatter about Ubuntu changing this or that. Has anyone been paying attention to Windows and Mac changes over the years and the horror expressed at the time of those changes?
Change is good - it USUALLY leads to advancement - but is painful to those who like the old fashion way (like me!)
I solved this problem about 5 or 6 years ago. I started using Ubuntu and have updated my system ONLY AS NECESSARY for me to continue doing what I typically do on my desktop.
I don't care what they do. It does not affect me because I have a stable system that has all of the software that does everything I like to do on my computer. Why change for a few additional features I probably don't need?
Most of us have been sold on the idea that the latest and greatest is better. I always ask my self one question - who said so?
24 • @15 (by Derek on 2011-06-27 14:24:46 GMT from India)
I used Firefox 5 as soon as the unstable channel was available. I've never had it hang or crash on me.
I don't mind the sudden craze to up the version. I've used beta versions of Firefox before(Sulphur 3.0, etc) and they used to hang and crash. My Point is, I will still recommend Firefox because although the numbering has changed, the software has not been adversely affected.
Jesse, did you really face any issues with Firefox?
25 • re: Ubuntu (by sfn on 2011-06-27 15:07:42 GMT from United States)
I actually like what Ubuntu has done. I'm using Natty on three different machines; a netbook, a virtual machine on a Mac, and a PC. No problems anywhere. But some people have problems with it. I can see why they'd want to jump to another distro.
What I don't understand is the threats. If you're unhappy, go. Don't try to resolve situations you're not happy with by saying you're going to leave. It's like dealing with a kid by saying, "if you don't put that down, you're going to be in trouble - 1, 2 - i'm serious - 1..."
26 • Out with Ubuntu, in with PCLinuxOS (by rob on 2011-06-27 15:16:11 GMT from United States)
My first Linux experience was Ubuntu 9.10 and it was life-changing. But after Lucid Lynx, everything went downhill. Ubuntu is becoming a resource-hungry OSX clone that caters to kids with tablets and smartphones.
I discovered PCLinuxOS not too long ago. All my hardware works, restricted codecs and firmware are already installed, and the community is excellent. Plus PCLOS has an edition for every desktop, from openbox to KDE.
The lead developer often posts on the forum and responds to the community. PCLOS even has it's own community magazine.
Out with Ubuntu, in with PCLinuxOS!
27 • Don't forget the *buntus (by David on 2011-06-27 15:38:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
I don't like the latest Ubuntu with its interface and I am unlikely to like Gnome 3.0, but I've stuck with the family.
Xubuntu is very nice for those who want to remain up-to-date but still keep menus, running as it does xfce. Despite what you may have heard about it, it's not a light distribution; it's fully-featured, and it looks good.
Lubuntu recently became an officially-supported *buntu as well, and that is great for low-memory systems. I think it's also very good for those who are used to Windows XP.
They both run a great deal faster than Microsoft operating systems do on my boxes.
28 • Firefox (by Jesse on 2011-06-27 15:44:25 GMT from Canada)
>> "Jesse, did you really face any issues with Firefox?"
Personally, no, I generally don't use Firefox, except for compatibility testing. However, I have heard from others who do and have run into problems (usually related to add-ons) since version 5 came out. My issue is basically that I used to be able to recommend Firefox for stable environments, small businesses, non-techie home users, etc and I could be fairly certain the browser would continue to receive security updates and run smoothly without complications, at least for a few years. Mozilla is basically saying they're not interested in business use and just want to give tech-savvy end users the features they want. See http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/enterprise/368290/mozilla-forget-businesses-we-re-here-for-regular-users
29 • Dear Ubuntu (by r on 2011-06-27 16:02:20 GMT from Australia)
Dear Ubuntu (Ubapple), you really have lost the plot, haven't you? I think it all started when you put the buttons on the wrong side.
30 • Problems with Mageia and Ubuntu (by Saurav on 2011-06-27 16:06:52 GMT from India)
The repository update tool in Mageia, which Mageia included unchanged from Mandriva, prompts the user for a required connection to the Internet in first person, something like, "I need to connect...." This looks downright stupid. Also, the network connectivity tool, which too Mageia included from Mandriva, has no option to connect using a CDMA wireless device.
As for Ubuntu, the opinions expressed are very relevant. The worst part of the distro is that while the free software world goes one way, Ubuntu goes another way. Many of the primary attractions of Linux-based systems have been increasingly ignored by Ubuntu over the years. In contrast, Fedora is an exemplary distro that is still true to its roots. Unfortunately, current trends and fashions have become the governing factors of Ubuntu.
31 • Firefox (by Dude on 2011-06-27 16:10:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
>> "Firefox is now a moving target, making it harder to support, plug-ins are breaking and soon it won't be possible to get just security fixes without also getting a bunch of new (untested) features"
Actually, the plugin API has been stabilised for FF5 and they should no longer break, assuming they have been written properly for FF5.
32 • Nice input about Ubuntu (by Shawn on 2011-06-27 16:15:34 GMT from United States)
I read a review on Ubuntu recently that gave it mixed reactions and on the comments section there were plenty of new users using that elitist attitude of "love it or leave it" regarding Unity in Ubuntu and some of the changes that have gone on recently with it. Being I've used Ubuntu since its inception and played my part in the community both online and in person helping friends and relatives with it, it kind of made me mad that a new user with an elitist attitude was telling me (and people like me who share the same opinion) to either accept it or move away from it.
The last version of Ubuntu I'll use is 11.04 for the simple facts Gnome is my choice and I'm not keen on the attitude towards the users/developers who helped Ubuntu grow to be the most popular version of Linux available to date. Gnome 3 is different, almost like Unity, but not a huge fan of that either. I've basically narrowed my choices (narrowed.. LOL) to going back to Arch, Slackware, Mint (LMDE in particular), openSUSE, Fedora or Kubuntu. I suppose it's nice to have choices without sacrificing capability or productivity, it's just a shame that you get comfy using something and the new users on the block think they helped build Ubuntu up to where it has gotten. All us "old time" users ask for is a little respect and a "take a walk in my shoes" approach to our gripes with the dramatic (and unnecessary?) changes.
Nothing wrong with being old fashioned, especially when you're still being productive and have stability. I don't think being old fashioned should always equate to be stubborn or close-minded. Linux was meant to be innovative by design, but some distro's jump the gun when it comes to new vs. proven/tested. I'm still shocked that as of Fedora 15, Gnome 3 is the default for Fedora. I suppose now is the time to get reacquainted with KDE and use LXDE some more. E17 always intrigued me too.. maybe Macpup on the horizon?
33 • re: 32 (by sfn on 2011-06-27 16:24:14 GMT from United States)
"I've basically narrowed my choices (narrowed.. LOL) to going back to Arch, Slackware, Mint (LMDE in particular), openSUSE, Fedora or Kubuntu."
That combined with the fact that I've had no problems with the latest version of Ubuntu are exactly why I'm sticking with it. But, as stated, some people are having problems. They'd like to have Ubuntu back the way it was. Fair enough. Why not fork it?
Why try to tell someone who is creating something and giving it away for free that they should be tailoring it to your preferences instead of theirs? Maybe more important, why stay with a person/organization when you know they aren't interested in making things work your way?
34 • Re: Ubuntu (by Anonymous on 2011-06-27 17:07:39 GMT from United States)
Serious artists don't use the gimp, its removal from the ISO didn't make a lick of difference to them. It might make some difference to the people that keep editing the gimp's wikipedia page to convince people it is being used by the film industry (hint: it's not), but no artist needs or wants to use the gimp.
The fact that you have this hang up over the gimp calls into question the rest of your opinion piece. Are you attempting to give constructive criticism to Canonical or just using populist rhetoric to justify why you aren't using Unity?
35 • #21 (by GodTux on 2011-06-27 17:09:30 GMT from France)
Thunderbird is present in the core repository of mandriva, either in 32 or 64bits versions.
36 • RE: SFN, I agree, but... (by Shawn on 2011-06-27 17:20:01 GMT from United States)
I see your point, believe me I do, but these changes practically came overnight. Look at the 11.04 release and compare it to the last one, 10.10. They're not even close in resemblance. Believe it or not, I am about change and introducing new (and maybe better) technologies for the masses, but do it at a pace where everyone can adjust. Ubuntu was, for all intents and purposes, just that prior to the 11.04 release. We had new versions with updated software instead of the dramatic changes we see today. And don't forget a lot, and I mean a LOT, of users became comfortable with Ubuntu's style and it's sane upgrades from one release to another.. simple updates to common programs, some introduction to a new technology (Ubuntu One for example), but nothing this drastic. That's why there's so many vocal people regarding this change, how fast it happened, and in which direction it is going and why they should or should not continue down this path.
Like I said, I've been using Ubuntu since Warty Warthog and I've grown with it through each and every release. Jesse hit the nail on the head in his letter to Ubuntu regarding the relationship, sticking with it through changes, and now all of a sudden the whole attitude and structure changes and the common philosophy is to either love it or leave it. What happened to the community, to people actually talking and working towards a common ground? I've definitely done my fair share of helping others out with Ubuntu and getting it installed on their computers for the past 6-7 years. This is the thanks we get for being loyal, dedicated and helping Ubuntu become #1?
Like I said, I see your point crystal clear. There "are" alternatives, it's just that a lot of users like myself have a bad taste in their mouth with this about-face and the slap we get for drinking the Kool-Aid and being a part of something that used to be great. This is all a result of people having a difference of opinion (Gnome devs vs. Canonical) and the resulting product it created. Unity is definitely not nearly as stable as Gnome 2+ but because of people agreeing to disagree and using emotions to make decisions, this is the result (cause and effect). I think Kubuntu will be gaining a lot of users shortly and Ubuntu/Canonical and the Gnome devs have a lot to work on behind closed doors.
37 • Re. Dear Ubuntu (by LinuXFroG on 2011-06-27 17:21:03 GMT from United States)
I totally agree with you Jesse. I have already left Ubuntu for Fedora. I doubt if Canonical can ever regain my trust enough to return.
I have been with Ubuntu since Warty and I thought I would never leave. I loved my experience, learned many things. I would not be the person I am without Ubuntu.
I would be some lost Windows Zombie, letting Micro$oft be in control. But Warty found me and picked me up out of the mud after Windows had once again, beat me down and left me laying there.
Ubuntu was a great friend, saved me from a lifetime of Micro$oft drudgery and taught me many things, but Ubuntu's going through so many changes, I just don't know it anymore.
Ubuntu has me so lost, I was walking in circles. Didn't even know where I was anymore and in walks Fedora, telling me it's ok, I will help you. Wow! Deja Vu! I remember those words from another.
So, here I am, now I have a new friend and her name is Fedora.
38 • Ubuntu (by Steve on 2011-06-27 17:22:26 GMT from United States)
I've used Linux for around 8 years now, bought several versions of Suse, was never looking for a freebie, just something better than I found on Windows. Eventually I shifted to Ubuntu because I had fewer hardware issues and things just generally worked. Because I also use Linux for work, I pledged not to do the distro crawl, so only occasionally switch. KXstudio brought me back to Ubuntu again and I'll probably keep using it as long as I can keep things the way I like. Like many, I hate the dumbed-down feel of Unity and I've stuck with classic. But hey, I don't pay anything for Ubuntu and Canonical hasn't sent me a survey asking my opinion. It is what it is. There are lots of interesting projects out there ( I wish Chakra would boot on my computer) and I know that Ubuntu will always be there if I want to visit or send a get well card.
39 • Another kind of user. (by MK on 2011-06-27 17:28:19 GMT from Israel)
let me take this opportunity and apologize on behalf of that part of the Linux community that finds faults in everything you do, that can't pass a day without whining about anything, that claims to love you, but really can't wait to see you stumble or make a mistake, so that it can start jeering and mocking your noble efforts even louder. I want to let you know, there is another kind of users, thankful and appreciative, who have nothing to complain about, even if I am the only one. I think that you are awesome, and both wish you, and look forward to, the decades of your success and prosperity. I love what you do, making the Linux desktop usable, staying current, innovating, fostering a strong community and catering to the novice and the experienced alike. I don't feel neglected nor offended by the changes you make to the desktop or by you exploring new markets, or by your strife to profitability. On the contrary, I want you to keep doing it despite your vocal friends, the whiners. I want you to make the Linux Desktop even better, and I want you to be profitable. I care not what color the the default theme is, or where the buttons are, or what apps are pre-installed, or what DE you choose.
May winds always fill your sails...
40 • Dear Debian (by Shawn on 2011-06-27 17:44:45 GMT from United States)
Dear Grandfather Debian,
If it weren't for you, none of these 1,000 Debian-derivatives would exist today. Thank you for being stable and true to your roots and giving yourself (and your wealthy repositories) for others to use and fork from you. Without you, this world would consist of a choice between Slackware and Red Hat. Thank you for your best efforts to provide a stable computing environment and sticking to your ideals of a stable, virus-free computing environment and community in which users agree that having clear, open communication and stable software is the priority in any kind of relationship. Thank you for letting us users choose the path in which we walk and helping us along the way in case we fall. You have never dictated in which direction we should go; instead, you offered us alternatives and supported us through everything. Regardless of what others say, you are not boring. You have always been in the shadows and have been rock solid through your ideals and communication. Thank you from your shadows in showing some of us the light in which things should be done.
A Linux user
41 • Re: Window Maker (by Palemoon on 2011-06-27 17:47:48 GMT from United States)
@5 Thanks for the mention of Lemur! :D
@13 This link may help: http://repo.or.cz/w/wmaker-crm.git
Also, tarballs are available from here (add to your /etc/apt/sources.list): deb-src http://www.the-little-red-haired-girl.org/pub/wmaker/ unstable main
These are the sources I use to compile Window Maker for Liquid Lemur.
Hope that helps.
42 • LibreOffice in package list (by Thom on 2011-06-27 18:08:55 GMT from Sweden)
Shouldn't the packagelist for distros include LibreOffice alongside OpenOffice?
With Oracle demonstrating the sensitivity to the community becoming of a Big Corp, etc. etc.
43 • Re: Dear Ubuntu (by Leo on 2011-06-27 18:14:15 GMT from United States)
Wow. We must be a crazy bunch, we "open source enthusiasts" or whatever name you choose to denote us, as a group.
Jesse: your article in unnecessarily sarcastic, and mostly petty. You could explain in lay terms what are your issues with the direction Ubuntu is taking. But just the fact that you were initially turned down by Ubuntu's "concepts of humanity, of bringing Linux to the masses ...", probably explains a lot.
No, fighting each other for petty differences thatare minuscule, in the large scheme of things ... that won't help us keep growing.
44 • Ubuntu Letter (by exploder on 2011-06-27 18:19:53 GMT from United States)
Jesse, that was a well written letter to Ubuntu. I used to participate in testing Ubuntu releases but no one ever seemed to listen. Ubuntu uses some seemingly good ideas and I am not saying that everything they do is bad but they release with far too many bugs and regressions. Ubuntu is by no means the only distribution releasing with bugs and regressions but they are the distribution grabbing all of the media attention.
People do not want to read the release notes for a new release just to see a large list of issues and that their hardware will not work. People want application updates not abandon ware. One of the most asked questions is "where can I get the latest Firefox?" and this applies to other popular applications as well.
Fix the bugs so Ubuntu will run on common hardware, smaller distributions manage to do it. Put current applications into the main repos for supported releases. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying new things and developing Unity, it's nice to see Ubuntu creating something on it's own. It's just ridicules reading the praises of Ubuntu everyday when we all know it's bug ridden as can be.
All of the talk about improving the boot experience did not last long, too many of us get nothing more than a black screen or a horrible looking plymouth screen in the wrong resolution. Fix the bugs before moving on to new versions of xserver so that peoples graphics cards are supported.
With the massive amount of media attention Ubuntu receives you have to expect this kind of criticism, it goes hand in hand with with the media attention. Quit labeling everything as an upstream issue and actually fix the problems and you will certainly deserve the media attention.
Ubuntu is slowly loosing popularity because it is so bug ridden, final releases are more like alpha builds than a finished product for the masses. Wake up and listen!
45 • Dear * (by Antonio on 2011-06-27 18:22:27 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (troll).
46 • @ 34 • Re: Ubuntu (by Anonymous on 2011-06-27 17:07:39 GMT from United States) (by Finalzone on 2011-06-27 18:45:04 GMT from Canada)
"Serious artists don't use the gimp, [...]. It might make some difference to the people that keep editing the gimp's wikipedia page to convince people it is being used by the film industry (hint: it's not), but no artist needs or wants to use the gimp."
That kind of comments need to die. Serious artists use Gimp for their intended purpose. Blender Project has proven it can be done. An excellent artist can use any tool regardless the limitation.
47 • Ubuntu & Debian (by Ken on 2011-06-27 18:50:44 GMT from Canada)
I agree with Gregorovich ( and Shawn)
I do not hate/fear change, but change for the sake of change is the same stupid BS that Apple & M$ have been shafting users with for far too long. There is nothing practical you can do in Win7 that you cannot do in WinXP. There is nothing you can do in Snow Leopard that couldn't have been done in Leopard (or Tiger for that matter) - I don't mean bling "Isn't-that-kewl" BS - I mean functional, useful, work.
After years of distro-hopping (since '95 - literally back to installing from 1.44" diskette) I settled on Ubuntu several years back, and have built servers, workstations, laptops & home media players on this base, due to the (until recent) good multi-media support, and the ease of installation without having to chase & compile drivers or hack ndiswrapper.
I have seen distros start with great promise, and the reasons for failure or even extinction are many. In this case I think Ubuntu is "Jumping the shark" to steal a Hollywood metaphor. Suse did this just shortly after Novell took over - on same hardware, before: fast & easy to install/maintain - after: slow, & buggy, although many new & desirable features were added.
I was a big fan of Mandrake 7.3 which worked on everything I threw at it. Then the next big upgrade, kablooie! A nightmare of no boots, dependencies and missing lib files. They too, jumped the shark.
Ubuntu has done this now - the signs were there a while back when they insisted on the POS known as PulseAudio. There are still many websites where this application causes much grief, and the hacks required to workaround should NOT BE NECESSARY. (try watching video at veetlecom & see what happens)
I use 10.04 LTS on all my desktops, laptop, and netbook, but if the next LTS is going to push the same cruft, I will have to go back to the roots, and purge Ubuntu in favor of Debian.
just my $0.02
48 • Ubuntu (by exploder on 2011-06-27 18:58:11 GMT from United States)
Antonio, it's not about hating Ubuntu. It's about the mass media attention and the poor quality releases. Ubuntu is ignoring it's very loyal community and they are the reason that Ubuntu is where it is today. Certainly no one is forced to use Ubuntu but it has a huge impact on Linux in general because they grab so much of the media attention. Come on, every time Ubuntu changes an icon it's big news. There are smaller distributions that are much more deserving of some press and their achievements often go un-noticed in the shadow of Ubuntu. Without the community Ubuntu would fade away like other distributions before it. Ubuntu needs to pay attention to what the community is asking for. I don't hate Ubuntu or else I would not say a word and just let it fade away and I don't think Jesse dislikes Ubuntu either.
49 • Ubuntu, Mageia (by fernbap on 2011-06-27 19:21:12 GMT from Portugal)
In general, i agree with both your positions towards Ubuntu and Mageia, Jesse.
To me, it looks like ubuntu is trying to be a one of a kind distro, using an environment that is exclusive to its brand. That is usually good business practice, (look at Apple), but it requires one thing: stability and support.
Ubuntu support is quite good, but unless you only take into account the LTS releases, stability has been an issue. Perhaps Canonical should push his "current" release to the newcomer. Perhaps only the LTS releases should be considered "stable" and the other releases would be branded as development releases.
Also, it seems that the directions Ubuntu takes are based on one sigle mind, Shuttleworth's. As the benevolent dictator of Ubuntu, he often fails to hear and takes business based decisions that piss many of his user base.
Ubuntu is trying to cover all bases, but such a product can't exist. Perhaps Ubuntu should not stick to a single branding while being all over the place with different decisions and different routes taken.
As to Mageia, the repos nightmare is an issue. The user is clueless on the necessity of enabling different repos and on which ones to enable. That would be simple to fix, i don't understand how a metapackage like "non-free multimedia support", for example, couldn't be made. So, my conclusion about Mageia's package managing system is not as positive as yours.
For a distro directed to the newcomer, things like not providing a simple and intuitive way for adding non-free components are not to be excused (who came up with the idea of naming the repo where the ati driver can be found "tainted", anyway?).
All of these points can easily be overcome, it doesn't even require much work, so i hope Mageia's next release will already be better under that point of view. If not, then Mageia will never be a good solution for the consumer desktop (not to mention the use of grub legacy and not giving the installer the option of not installing any bootloader)..
Anyway, presently any user friendly distro offering the "traditional" gnome 2 desktop is a good idea.
50 • Dear Ubuntu (by Khalil on 2011-06-27 19:27:51 GMT from Kuwait)
I thing ubuntu has brought LINUX in front and can understand that some purists doesn't understand its revolutionary way. We had never such a stable and fast linux machines. Since 15 years we had never such a powerfull linux distro running. We would never rich this responds for linux without ubuntu. Ubuntu is based on Debian. I think look and feel of a powerfull distro shouldn't harm a distro. In business all managers are using powerfull mobiles and they are also based on LINUX kernel. Are they all are toys. I think, ubuntu should offer a configurable desktop for business use and all other "normal" people. Nothing has bin changed on Ubuntus philosophy. LINUX should be accepted everywhere within keeping his way. Notice Ubuntu should keep the business linux for LTS releases. I have never got an stable LINUX MINT even it was based on Ubuntu. I always came back to Ubuntu!
51 • Unity, Gnome3 and multilboot (by Ron on 2011-06-27 19:46:03 GMT from United States)
One of the best attributes of Linux is the ability to boot more than one OS, or even more than one version of the same OS.
Take the latest problems and complaints over Unity...
Here's my take on it all:
I multiboot at least two different Linux distros on my machines. I keep them both stable and up to date as much as possible. Then, if for some reason (any personal reason), I no longer favor a certain one, or if a sudden failure of some update occurs, I replace it with something better. I still have the ability to boot into number two until I get a new number one.
Works for me! Call it evolution.
52 • anger towards Ubuntu (by Rocketman on 2011-06-27 20:07:09 GMT from Canada)
All of the negative comments about Ubuntu remind me of the big switch from KDE 3 to 4. Most posts in this very forum were about how people hated the change and would never use KDE again. Years later, KDE 4 is finally a relatively mature desktop that not only looks great, but it feels like a significant amount of effort and development have gone into it.
This is where both Gnome 3 and Ubuntu are right now. Big changes are almost always met with big obstacles. In three or four years, the linux desktop scene will not look at all like it does today. If we stuck with KDE 3 and Gnome 2, linux evolution would continue at the snail's pace it had before Ubuntu entered the picture. Like it or not, but Ubuntu is pushing for big changes. Thankfully, linux is open enough that we can embrace change at the speed most comfortable for each person - your favorite program and desktop is always an apt-get away.
53 • Ubuntu (by Hawkeye52 on 2011-06-27 20:14:09 GMT from United States)
@ Jesse: Your comments are right on! Congratulations for voicing these concerns in such an open forum. Any such comments on an Ubuntu supported website would die a terrible, scorching death.
As for me, I feel disappointment in the whole direction that Ubuntu has taken, especially after it's early, resounding success. Ubuntu became a success by marketing community and communication; today it is hard to define what 'community' is being catered to, and who Ubuntu is actually listening to.
The most successful Ubuntu derivative today is Linux Mint. It is no wonder. They actually listen to their users, and have figured out how to keep Ubuntu on a 'useability leash' that makes the derivative much better than the original. Sadly, it appears that Linux Mint developers are losing patience over Ubuntu's 'forced march' approach to change, and are moving as many of their alternative desktop versions (e.g. Xfce, LXDE, and another version of Gnome (2.XX)) to a pure Debian base that is receiving good response from its community of users.
Many of your old, faithful users are jumping ship because you and your organization made decisions to change things that didn't really need changing, just fine tuning. None of your former friends and allies could move fast enough, or in YOUR direction; so they were no longer friends or allies.
Sadly, the 'community sheep' that gathered a flock of users, has shed its disguise, and now appears as the wolf that will lead its remaining (and/or changing) pack on a frontal attack of Microsoft Windows and/or Apple Mac OSX. Are you listening Mr. Shuttleworth? Does it matter to you, Mr. Shuttleworth? Was this Mr. Shuttleworth's vision all along: Linux as a tool to conquer the commercial software world?
@ those who complain about Distrowatch and its handling of all the desktop *buntu derivatives (Kubuntu, Xbuntu, Lubuntu, ad-nauseum-buntu), that was a clever marketing marketing ploy by Canonical that could be easily corrected going forward. For myself, I don't think that a distribution should be counted as a stand alone product if they don't have their own, separate user forum -- just a thought... Following this line of thought, BTW, if you take all those buntus, and bundle them together, and then compare their total hit count over the last 30 days or 7 days with Linux Mint (with all of its desktop versions) -- Linux Mint is leading that hit parade! Ergo, take this opportunity Distrowatch, and do some buntu-bundling -- it will give a clearer picture of reality.
54 • Ubuntu (by maconulaff on 2011-06-27 20:14:15 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu can do whatever they want to do. They are NOT community driven like many other Linux distros. They may leverage/market their community concept very effectively, but at the end of the day - they are a for-profit business. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Just don't go getting all misty-eyed because you feel they are ignoring the community as they determine the direction of development of their products.
55 • Ubuntu (by Greenbird on 2011-06-27 20:38:19 GMT from United States)
While I agree with much of Jesse 's sentiment, I submit that much of the same criticism can be directed upstream at Gnome.
That said, I understand why these projects are moving in this direction -- windows 8 and osx becoming more and more smartphone like.
Thankfully in Linux we have alternatives.
56 • Ubuntu (by tdockery97 on 2011-06-27 21:03:08 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu can do whatever they want to do. They are NOT community driven like many other Linux distros. They may leverage/market their community concept very effectively, but at the end of the day - they are a for-profit business. And there is nothing wrong with that."
Finally, someone said it like it is. Many of the larger Linux distributions are NOT community driven, but are actually commercial enterprises. I don't begrudge them that, and more power to them. I personally like being involved in the community atmosphere, which is why I use Mint.
57 • Re:6 Goodbye Ubuntu, hello Slackware (by Caraibes on 2011-06-27 21:21:03 GMT from Dominican Republic)
-Is that my friend Kiki Novaks ? Please write an article, a blog, a review or even a book on your approach to Slackware !!!
-How do you handle the French locale, or lack of thereof ?
Give us some feedback !
(I must say I gave up on RHEL clones, but I am doing just fine with Ubuntu 10.04, Gnome 2.X, FF 3.6)
58 • Slick Slack (by Niki Kovacs on 2011-06-27 22:16:12 GMT from France)
@57: let me guess... Martin Bréguet, fellow from the CentOS years? Yeah, Ubuntu 10.04 LTS is quite fine, but I'm quite worried about the direction it's taking, so I decided to hop off the Canonical boat and take a dive in more pleasant Slackware waters. Click on the link my name is pointing to, and you'll see that Slackware can be as "sexy" as any Kubuntu or Fedora, but without the cholesterol and the nasty surprises. For a few years, Slackware has been a member of the three distributions (with CentOS and Debian) where everything just works... now, as far as I'm concerned, it's pretty much the only member in that club. Don't bother if I may be sounding like the two boring old farts in the Muppet Show, it's just that working daily on Linux in production environments has turned me into a somewhat difficult public.
59 • Debian Squeeze And Nothing Else... (by linuxforever00 on 2011-06-27 22:22:31 GMT from Canada)
I also started out with Ubuntu 6.06 until 10.04. Then all this talk about Unity, and Gnome 3, all I can say is Debian Squeeze is actually Stable, and runs awesome with KDE 4.4.5.
I am now a dedicated Debian user, and hope to remain one.
60 • Re: Dear Ubuntu... (by Theo1971 on 2011-06-27 22:53:06 GMT from Netherlands)
I entirely agree with Jesse's message to the Ubuntu team. More and more I also feel a sort of a distance coming up with every new release. Since Natty Narwhal it doesn't feel like "home" anymore. It's hard to admit, but true. And that hurts a little bit.
The best release so far was Lucid Lynx and Maverick Meerkat (and I don't want to mention the downfalls of both versions). No, instead of complaining and "whining" about it, I made a crucial decision for myself: After my Maverick Meerkat install reaches his end of life, I'm switching to Linux Mint or Xubuntu. I think Linux Mint will be the "escape path" for the more conservative users of Ubuntu, including yours truly. But I tried Xubuntu, and that is also a fine alternative for those who don't want to be forced to Unity or Gnome 3.
I've been an Ubuntu user from the first hour, but... the love is starting to fade away. And I just can't help it.
Gnome 2, what's going to happen to that? Will it still be maintained, or will the project "die" to make space for Gnome 3? Another love I'm afraid of losing. Yes, it hurts. ;-(
61 • I completely agree with Jesse! (by Andy on 2011-06-27 22:55:30 GMT from New Zealand)
Ubuntu has gone **too far.** They have completely lost touch with their user-base, and that is fatal. I **HATE** the new Gnome 3 interface. You will prise my minimise button from my cold,dead hands. I will either be staying with Gnome 2 or switching to Fluxbox or XFCE.
62 • Ubuntu (by Octathlon on 2011-06-27 23:33:37 GMT from United States)
I've also used Ubuntu since Warty and I've been happy by sticking with the LTS releases. Each LTS upgrade I did, I was pleased to see a noticeable improvement over the previous, and by Lucid Lynx, they were really getting the UI right. Then they threw all that away and went to the giant smartphone thing. Hope the kids like it. When it's time to move on from Lucid I'll probably go with Xubuntu, Mint, or Mepis.
63 • Ubuntu (by Craig on 2011-06-28 01:34:24 GMT from United States)
I do agree with Jesse as for the direction of Ubuntu. Ubuntu had always provided sane defaults. That's changed.
I've heard over and over again that distros are free as in "free of charge." It's not always so! Some people have donated money or bought music and other items from Amazon or Ubuntu One. That does give people a right to be vocal and even angry.
64 • @ 63 Amazon? (by Gary Guppleupagus on 2011-06-28 03:47:37 GMT from Canada)
Craig, I don't see why buying things from Amazon gives people "a right to be vocal and angry" about the direction Ubuntu has taken. Care to expand on this?
65 • Too many changes TOO FAST! (by RollMeAway on 2011-06-28 03:49:01 GMT from United States)
"Xorg server was updated to version 1.10.2.
The bad news is users with older legacy video cards included in most dated computers may not function properly due to many depreciated xorg video drivers."
So, why are so many distros moving to Xorg-1.10 anyway? Don't care about users with "dated" computers? Obviously!
We should trash our older computers (that work great) so we can experience the 3D desktop of the future, with wiggly window, and animated icons?
I can understand this philosophy from the likes of ms or mac. Not linux!
For the last couple of years separate releases were offered for "net books" and desktops.
Now? Forget the desktops, especially the OLD ones.
You don't have a touch screen and a facebook account? You are SO "dated"!
66 • Second Article (by Landor on 2011-06-28 04:26:15 GMT from Canada)
I can't understand this community. For the most part people are supposed to be smart in it. Yet everyone's getting hooked into this article. Why?
I saw the title as I passed everything, and in my shock over only one, yes one news item this week (the whole second article should have been replaced by news items in my opinion), and then I read all the reactions (and reactionaries) responding and shook my head.
I'm sure there will be some kind of response to this, if even only from a fanboi or two, making up excuses. But facts are, there was a review of Ubuntu in May here and you didn't see this kind of post, or article in that, odd no? It'll be, or could be, argued that 'it didn't really happen until recently'....right. Then we have what is normally here a slow period, the summers, and all the big releases done. Even more so though when you factor in the comments from last week hitting a really bad low of 86. All that reads that this the draw here isn't what it used to, and even though I've had personal reasons keeping me back, or away, I've still felt little need, or want to post here myself. There's just not really much for substance.
So what it boils down to, this article was meant to do just what it's doing, pump you all up, incite you into comments, coming back, etc. Hack writing, nothing more. I see women do this stuff online. Maybe this kind of letter is appropriate for a blog, facebook, or say the Open Solaris/LibreOffice team(s), but not a professional newsletter.
Anyway, I've said the same thing 54 did,Ubunut is Canonoical, and they're a business. their bottom line is profit, nothing more. If someone is a professional in this community, works as a professional, writes as a professional, and still writes this type of article, that tells you above anything else there's an agenda behind writing it.
I'm currently working on a new project based on CrunchBang and gNewSense 3.0 (their development branch). It's coming together nicely so far. Something better to discuss than any of what I read in this week's DWW. First time in a while that even the news section let me down.
Keep your stick on the ice...
67 • 66 • Second Article (by Landor) (by Verndog on 2011-06-28 05:35:07 GMT from United States)
Couldn't agree more about what you responded.
Another thought to ponder, and most are forgetting, is the fact that Gnome2 is dead in the water. No more development. Oh some 3-4 people may try and keep it afloat, but Ubuntu and eventually all the rest will have to follow another path. Unity or Gnome3.
If not Unity or Gnome3, then what?! I'm not a fan of Unity either, and will hold on to Lucid LTS until the end, and hopefully by then Wayland , will be a better fit.
68 • @64 I'll explain. (by Craig on 2011-06-28 05:53:34 GMT from United States)
Donating or buying anything from any of Ubuntu's retailers should afford you the right to express dissatisfaction in their product since you're contributing to Ubuntu's profit margin - even if negative. Ubuntu is a commercial company. If it wants to become profitable, it should at least listen to the paying customers that it has. Does Ubuntu want more paying customers or fewer paying customers?
69 • Xubuntu, Lubuntu (by Satisfied Ubuntu User on 2011-06-28 06:24:39 GMT from Taiwan)
I agree with number 27 - Xubuntu and/or Lubuntu offer great solutions to anyone put off by the Unity interface. The Xubuntu interface is a little "busier" than Lubuntu, but both are similar. No reason not to play with both and see which you prefer.
If you've already got Ubuntu installed and not happy with it, then just:
apt-get install xubuntu-desktop lubuntu-desktop
Log out, then log-in choosing either Xubuntu or Lubutu. And enjoy.
I think that a lot of you complain too much. Change is always a bit of a shock, but the Ubuntu (and other developers) have given us so much. We are getting all this stuff for free, and it works rock solid (at least on both of my computers). Every now and then, I'm forced to use Windows at an Internet cafe, and can't believe how primitive it feels compared to my Xubuntu desktop.
So let me just say to you Ubuntu (and other Linux) developers - a big THANK YOU.
70 • A cool BSD to check out (or review) (by Jrod on 2011-06-28 06:44:14 GMT from United States)
Hey I stumbled across a cool FreeBSD distro. Thanks to Mr. D at www.dedoimedo.com/
Its called VirtualBSD it lets you run a preconfigured freebsd dekstop with XFCE via a vmware image (works with virtualbox via a few tweaks) Its looks pretty cool I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before (forgive me if its old news) check it out, or review it? haha http://www.virtualbsd.info/
Anyway great DW Weekly as always Ladislav & Jesse.
71 • "Ubuntu" (by woodsmoke on 2011-06-28 07:05:15 GMT from United States)
Regarding the Dear Ubuntu letter.
A significant number of replies included the word "desktop". I teach college biology, and last semester the first of very many netbooks and just plain "readers" that included some kind of OS started appearing on the lab tables.
Bill Gates said he wanted a computer to be "an appliance", and he is finally getting there. We now have computers on the door of a refrigerator.
I detest Unity and Gnome3 both on a desktop, and even on a laptop, but they are both pointed EXACTLY at being "fully scalable" from a cell phone to a desktop.
The students are deciding now, just like the present generation of "old groaners" did when they decided that they wanted a GUI and not ten thousand multiple keystroke commands on laminated cardboard keyboard wraparounds....what will be the future of "computing" in one very simple way.
They are forking over cold hard cash or never never plan credit cards for the smallest workable computer they can find, that preferably fits very well in a SMALL backpack because NEXT it will have to fit in their brief case or very large purse.
There are oh, I don't know... how many window managers out there? I wonder if say...sawfish would replace Unity? Maybe Xfce? Don't know...there are repos, and there are mice to click on window managers to be installed. There is Kubuntu, Edubuntu, how many other 'buntus?
In fact, I think I'll do just that....see if i can install ANY other windowmanager over my Unity install because, as I said before, I have little liking for either of them on a desktop.
However.....there are others....who seem to like Unity and Gnome3 just fine.
just a thought.
72 • Ubuntu (by Deemon on 2011-06-28 07:05:25 GMT from Germany)
I like Ubuntu, I always did from the early days. I try every Ubuntu release. This last one, 11.04 came with Unity,and I liked it until I could find a way to install Gnome 3.
The only problem with the installed Gnome 3 is it is bit slow in response.
The problem with Unity, though it looks nice on the laptop screen, it needs many mouse moves and clicks to get somewhere, whereas in Gnome 3, it is only one movement and few clicks while seeing everything on the screen in miniature.
Fedora comes with Gnome 3, so I have a problem today, whether to shift to Fedora or stay with Ubuntu with the bit-slow Gnome 3. I don't like the rpms...
I hope, either Ubuntu finds a way to make a Gnome 3 release of 11.04, or await the 12.04 with Gnome 3.
Without Gnome 3, most probably Ubuntu would start losing its fans.
73 • PCLinuxOS 2011.6 (by tdockery97 on 2011-06-28 11:23:42 GMT from United States)
After hearing the word and then seeing on DistroWatch that the new PCLinuxOS 2011.6 was released, I downloaded and installed it to give it a try. I find it to be a great implementation of KDE and it has the apps already installed that I usually have to add on myself. ATI and NVIDIA drivers are installed automatically. So far it's rock solid. One of my favorite apps in PCLinuxOS is Synaptic Package Manager. Having used mostly Debian based distros it is what I am already used to. I don't even have to think about the fact that it's RPM based.
74 • so farewell then those 'dated' computers with their old video cards? (by gnomic on 2011-06-28 12:44:35 GMT from New Zealand)
Like #65 I have just looked at the PCLinuxOS latest release announcement with its tidings that older video cards are 'depreciated' in the newest Xorg. Well no doubt they are severely depreciated, but perhaps the word that was meant here is deprecated? Semantic quibbles aside, anyone know what has been dropped here? Or is what is meant that those older 8 and 16 MB video cards are not going to support the latest video bling? Of late an 8MB Matrox PCI card came to the rescue when the PCie slot on a revived motherboard wouldn't play nicely, I'd hate to think such an option wouldn't be available in future.
Anybody know exactly what is going on here, are more older video cards dropped entirely?
75 • Re: Dear Ubuntu (by peter on 2011-06-28 12:49:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
You missed out, WHY drop Gnome in favour of that terrible Unity rubbish? Admittely Unity uses less characters than Pathertic and Rubbish but the same number as Awful.
76 • Rolling release (by Al on 2011-06-28 13:52:27 GMT from Canada)
Browsers are moving to the rolling release model quickly. In fact, I think the version number is merely a marketing tool to keep up the hype that their product is changing and improving.
Projects like Debian will have to adapt or shoot themselves in the foot. Up until very recently Debian had Chromium version 6 in the testing repository, while upstream was at version 12. There were numerous bugs and security advisories on version 6 which they had no hope of keeping up with. I stopped using Chromium due to this fact. Now they've moved version 12 to testing and I'm using it again.
Point is, projects that focus on stability are going to have to start trusting upstream for these fast-moving targets like browsers. They have to start planting their resources upstream to embed their ideals and ensure compatibility at the source of the matter, instead of waiting for releases and then reacting to the problems.
There is little other choice for them and it should be painfully clear soon, as the supported life of a browser version will soon be no longer than a few months.
77 • @76 (by Patrick on 2011-06-28 15:15:06 GMT from United States)
You are so right, version numbers really don't have much meaning in determining whether the code experiences a major or minor change. A rigid adherence to not updating across major package versions is pretty much the only thing that keeps me from running Debian stable on my day-to-day system (I know I can get more up-to-date packages from other sources, but don't feel quite as comfortable with that compared to them being in the main repo's). I wish this would be more flexible--maybe not for base system packages and libraries, but then at least for end user packages like web browsers that really don't have much or any dependencies that could break.
Who gets to decide what a major version change is anyway? It seems different upstream projects all use their own systems, which can change over time. How many dots must the version number cross before it is a minor version change that can be incorporated in a stable Debian release?
Say that there had been a Debian release that had contained Firefox (or Iceweasel) 4.0. Would they never have upgraded it to 5.0? Really, 5.0 would have been 4.1 if Mozilla had stuck to their previous versioning scheme. Calling it 5.0 is a totally arbitrary change.
Or consider Enlightenment 0.17. How many major updates did that software get in the 0.16.999.x version that was around for years? Would Debian have happily included all those changes in their stable release just because all the changes were hiding behind three dots?
Then there is the upcoming Linux kernel version 3.0, which would probably just have been called 2.6.40 if it hadn't been for the fact that Linus wanted to mark the start of the third decade of Linux.
Can anyone enlighten me on the logic that is used to determine what can and cannot be updated in a stable Debian release?
78 • @74 xorg-1.10 nvidia support (by RollMeAway on 2011-06-28 15:42:32 GMT from United States)
My experience is with nvidia cards. Any distro that upgrades to xorg-1.10 breaks, if you run anything but nvidia-current. All the older (-173, -96) nvidia will only run with "vesa" (1024x768). The xorg-video-nv driver has been dropped, and nouveau is crap, on older cards.
79 • Goodbye Ubuntu, hello PC-BSD (by firstname.lastname@example.org on 2011-06-28 16:06:50 GMT from Canada)
Goodbye Ubuntu, hello PC-BSD
j'ai délaissé Ubuntu et je suis maintenant sur PC-BSD.J'ai eu un peu de misère avec la carte de son mais après quelques manipulation tout va très bien.j'ai fais un bon choix.
80 • re: ubuntu installed xfce and Kubuntu on Oneric (by woodsmoke on 2011-06-28 16:22:10 GMT from United States)
Re the post about Ubuntu, initial and then my reply( 71 above).
I thought rather than just talk about it, I'd do it.
About twenty minutes after my post(71) I had installed Xfce. LOL. It was not pretty, in fact it was more like an Okapi than an Ocelot!.LOL.
But, to move on, I figured that about the most complex thing I might put on top of Oneric was Kubuntu.
That was not doable from Kpackagekit. I had to run synaptic in sudo terminal and add repos for Oneric Multiverse and Universe.
After that, I saw the light! No more darkness no mor...ooops.... sorry, I saw all the Kubuntu stuff in it's wonderful blueness in Synaptic.
After invoking my right to left click there were 1351 packages to d/l and add. The d/l took about an hour and the installing took about another hour about a third of which was language packs. I had to click three things during the install: wanting kdm as default and something else, and that fglrx was not going to install.(I offer fglrx as proof that I actually DID the install, since it would be kinda hard for folks to see my screen through the internet and the devs will know about why it happened(which I do not! LOL) But anyways..
After reboot, there were 499 updates.
I now have, not quite as pretty as the wonderful Kubuntu team has made: a "plasma workspace" from Kubuntu on top of Ornery.
So, if one does not like Ornery one can rest assured that one can: ...just choose one of the hundreds of Ubu variants which do not have the Unity interface, or one can install one's own display/window manager as we have been able to do all along.
p.s., as to the cloud thing. I figured that was going to be a two catalogue problem, so I grabbed two of my best and headed to the throne room. However on the way to the forum, oh sorry, throne room, I had an idea. I went back and deleted the menu item for Ubu One, cloud situation solved.
81 • Recent Mindless Changes (by Dominik on 2011-06-28 17:11:34 GMT from Austria)
"If you're unhappy, go."
Somebody recommended this in an earlier post, and that's exactly what I'm doing: after several happy years of Linux I'm now going - to Windows; XP for now.
I never thought the day would come when I would do this without being forced by Microsoft - but now Linux developers are forcing me to do so.
Linux improved very much over the years, and the effort I had to spend to get it working paid off. This changed completely for some time now, working things have been discarded and exchanged for dubiuos replacements. I have to put a lot of effort into getting half the productivity I had before - that's not progress.
I need my computer to get things done, not as a sort of playground with inbuilt instability. Remember the scathing jokes by Linux users about Windows being unusable and crashing all the time? Well, XP is a model of stability and usability for me now after my experience with the latest cream of modern Linux-desktops.
So I'm leaving Linux for these reasons, and I'm afraid that I'm not the only one doing so; something I think rather sad.
If driving away people was the intention of the great innovators, they have succeded admirably.
82 • I remember when... (by Tom Cat on 2011-06-28 17:17:08 GMT from United States)
Back in the day when Red Hat split RHEL and Fedora Core. People said they'd never trust RH again and never use Fedora (For the record I stayed with FC until I got sick of the short release cycle and tried Ubuntu).
Now everyone is saying OMG Unity sucks I'll never trust or use Ubuntu again, I'm switching to Fedora.
While I'll agree Ubuntu started going downhill when they started putting the buttons on the wrong side, it isn't the end of the world. There are plenty of distros out there, just switch to one that meets your needs (I've settled on Kubuntu, but am willing to consider others especially Debian). There's no need for all the anger and hate. It is just software, why get emotionally attached to it? Do you need attention so badly that everyone needs to see you and your drama when you switch?
83 • CrunchBang 10 (by nerdous on 2011-06-28 18:01:00 GMT from United States)
I think everyone is talking about this way too much. I've been a content Ubuntu user for quite some time but think that Ubuntu has made a lot of changes I wouldn't like, so I made the switch away to another distribution. Decided on CrunchBang 10 and love it. So since Landor said there's people that are a fanboi I guess that would make me a fangurl! lol But seriously, Crunchbang is so simple to use and the forums are someplace I actually want to hang around, for more than just information gathering. An overall good place to be IMO.
84 • Preassure upon developers (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-06-28 18:04:30 GMT from Spain)
"If you're unhappy, go."
Somebody recommended this in an earlier post, and that's exactly what I'm doing: after several happy years of Linux I'm now going - to Windows; XP for now.
No good to admit, but GNU/Linux quality is fading away quickly. This is not the only old-user_leaves_Linux post I have read, and most old-users leave GNU/Linux for this reason:
You cannot trust GNU/Linux to bring a flawless desktop experience anymore. I find this true with most distributions, at least.
Yes, some people out there will say: "If You Don't Like GNU/Linux, Go Use Other OS". Well, Dominik has followed your instructions, and know what? Asking users to leave is not a solution.
The reasons why I use GNU/LInux are superior efficency and license convenience. The recent drop of quality in GNU/Linux is disturbing, but even the bugs I use to face are unable to make GNU/Linux a worse software solution that, let's say, Windows.
In other words: from my point of view, GNU/Linux serves my purposes better than any operating system, even being in a regression state.
You can say: "If You Use It, Shut Up! If You Don't, Let Us Alone!". I will use GNU/Linux as long as I feel is better. Anyway, you will understand me to criticise some developers for turning a great OS into a mediocre OS. We must shout we are not agree with the direction GNU/Linux is taking, in orther to make developers wake up and fix this.
And, if GNU/Linux keeps going down for long, we'd better start choosing another system. Many distros that used to work are not trustworthy anymore, and GNU/Linux is running out of reliable distributions. If GNU/Linux keeps moving down the road of doom, I will jump from the charriot before it crashes against the rocks of damnation.
That's my ultimatum. I'm serious about it.
85 • Don't upgrade unless you have no option (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-06-28 18:19:18 GMT from Spain)
One thing I forgot to write is that, if someone has a working distribution, he shouldn't update it unless needed.
Many people out there could be surely using Ubuntu 8.xx instead of 11.04. If you feel that the newer version of a distribution is worse than the one that was before, why the hell are you upgrading to it ?!?
OK, I know security support can be an issue in some cases, but most of the time it is not.
86 • RE: 67 - 83 + Leaving, etc.... (by Landor on 2011-06-28 18:44:30 GMT from Canada)
It's always good hearing from you Verndog.
I couldn't agree more. I don't see a viable solution for Gnome 2 on the horizon, other than some long term support distributions. The same is/was with the KDE 3 series. I could have either moved on until KDE 4 matured, or sucked it up and changed to KDE 4. KDE 3 was no longer a real alternative, even if there had been a decent long term supported version of it. Fact is, eventually you either make the switch or stick with something outdated and no support, for the whole release you're running.
I myself went to Gnome. I love minimal so also messed around with all the WMs as I've stated a number of times, and this week. I like Xfce too, except for the rodent..lol I might find myself building a stripped down KDE 4, it's matured enough now that I can safely migrate back if I choose to. I'm actually kind of interested in some of the new features I've read about. I'm even considering compiling a massive KDE 4 how to, putting together every tip, trick that I can find in one place, and if needed, brought up to date with the latest release. I'm going to wait until 4.7 before I take a look at it though, maybe a bit sooner and try out the 4.7 beta and such.
No, you're still a fanboi! lol It's a good distribution to be a fanboi of, CrunchBang has a lot going on in my opinion, as per my review of it and the community surrounding it. To be hones though, you don't sound like a fanboi at all, you sound like a normal user. That's a huge difference.
How long did you use Ubuntu for, and what made you pick CrunchBang? I'm curious. I noticed in the CrunchBang forums when you introduced yourself you said you don't know a lot about Linux, so you just use it as an everyday system and that's it?
I figure if anyone wants to leave the community and go back to any other operating system then we should thank them not only for their time spent, but also their consideration of all of us for leaving. Obviously they don't want to be here and if they stayed it wouldn't be very constructive for all of us. Thus, leaving is actually doing the community a service.
I run one operating system only, one that respects me, others, and even our freedoms, with a bit of effort. It's called GNU/Linux, and I'm not going anywhere.
Keep your stick on the ice...
87 • Ubuntu (by maconulaff on 2011-06-28 19:19:44 GMT from United States)
The whole "make your distro the way I want it or I'm leaving" attitude just makes me laugh. It is still Linux. You can dump the junk you don't like and rebuild it with the stuff you do like. Ubuntu has every right to pursue building their products the way they want. If you don't like that, either choose a different distro or roll up your sleeves and rebuild it the way you want it.
Remember - with Linux, we have choices that we don't have with other proprietary operating systems (MS and Apple). Stop pissing and whining at Ubuntu - either accept their changes, make the changes to their software to meet your needs, or select a different distro.
88 • Leaving is a service to the comunity! (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-06-28 19:37:16 GMT from Spain)
I figure if anyone wants to leave the community and go back to any other operating system then we should thank them not only for their time spent, but also their consideration of all of us for leaving. Obviously they don't want to be here and if they stayed it wouldn't be very constructive for all of us. Thus, leaving is actually doing the community a service.
I run one operating system only, one that respects me, others, and even our freedoms, with a bit of effort. It's called GNU/Linux, and I'm not going anywhere.
Ha, ha, ha, ha! Yeah, I agree, if someone is having a miserable life with GNU/Linux, it will be better for him to go BSD, Windows or OpenIndiana and have a miserable life with them instead :-)
Now seriously: if someone uses GNU/Linux, it is because he thinks it is better. If someone who has used GNU/Linux for years stops using it, it is becasuse it is not better anymore. That's an alarm bell, don't you think?
That said, I'm not planning to move from GNU/Linux, because I have managed to have a running Debian Squeeze that fully works, and Squeeze will remain until the computer dies. Even with the troubles I have pointed out in many of my comments, Debian is the better distribution I can get for my purposes.
The fact, however, is that only fanboys claim they will forever use a given operating system.
I think GNU/Linux is walking throught a dangerous path right now. It is important to let the big developers know that we will not rest in silence while they produce defective software and try us to use it. You think Ubuntu, or any distro, is becoming buggy or slow? STOP DONATING, STOP USING IT, and make clear why are you doing so. Hopefuly, there will be people enough using this tactic, so the distro's developers will mend the problem before it is too late.
89 • @86, a "how to customize KDE" (by JB on 2011-06-28 19:43:35 GMT from United States)
Landor - consider doing a nice how-to on wikihow.com on how to customize KDE. then other people can add their good ideas too. give it a more specific title if you want (like "how to customize KDE for a netbook" or "how to customize kde for a desktop") to keep it to the kind of user experience you're going for
90 • minimal-change distros (by Pearson on 2011-06-28 21:29:35 GMT from United States)
The "Dear Ubuntu" column reminds me of why I like Slackware, and now Arch. They don't muck around too much with the upstream vendors. Much of the complaints agains Ubuntu are the too-frequent changes to be bleeding-edge. Well, the distros that don't aggressively/excessively impose their branding on the upstream packages lack that "problem".
Of course this is a two-edged sword. Without the aggressive branding, it's hard to make the distro stand out to, or catch the eye of., a newer user.
I swear, if Slackware could make upgrades easer for the typical home user (I understand slapt-get and that other utility make this easier and better), then I would consider it the best distro for new users (the "difficulty" of installation should be fairly easily overcome, IMO).
91 • @90 (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2011-06-28 23:14:14 GMT from United States)
"Without the aggressive branding, it's hard to make the distro stand out to, or catch the eye of., a newer user."
Exactly! I think this is one reason Ubuntu went with Unity as opposed to the then not-ready-yet (and I think still not) gnome3 shell. I surely hope that both shells improve themselves for the benefit of all its users, including those new to the Linux world and those who've here around awhile.
92 • Mageia Cauldron (by Béranger on 2011-06-28 23:28:17 GMT from Romania)
I'm using Mageia 1.0 since it wasn't released yet (end-May) and I am overall satisfied. It's not perfect (but what distro is?), and 1.0 is most to test the infrastructure and the like, but most of the valuable people who left Mandriva are now with Mageia.
Mageia Cauldron (Mageia's name for "Cooker") has more packages than 1.0 and, while obviously risky, it's surprisingly stable for a cooker/rawhide/unstable distro. I have switched to it on June 6 and I am using it ever since -- with no significant breakages!
I have even created my own Unofficial Mageia Cauldron Repository, initially because Mageia had a too old Calibre, and then I've added some more packages I was missing.
It's up here: http://mageia.beranger.org/mageia/
Switching from 1.0 to Cauldron is simple for the audacious (32-bit):
* Remove the current repos: urpmi.removemedia -a
* Add the Cauldron ones, either as a list: urpmi.addmedia --distrib --mirrorlist http://mirrors.mageia.org/api/mageia.cauldron.i586.list
* ...or maybe just as a preferred unique mirror: urpmi.addmedia --distrib ftp://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/distrib/cauldron/i586
* Since we’re here, add my repo too: urpmi.addmedia Beranger http://mageia.beranger.org/mageia/2/RPMS/i586
* rpm --import my GPG key: http://mageia.beranger.org/mageia/RPM-GPG-KEY-odiecolon
* And now, expect for the worse: urpmi --replacefiles --auto-update --auto
Mageia is the big news for 2011. Forget about GNOME3 -- it's unusable by design, not because it's still young (what? no taskbar?).
93 • Ubuntu (by Geekboula on 2011-06-28 23:35:49 GMT from Canada)
I understand the frustration about the direction of Ubuntu. Well I need to defense a little bit Ubuntu, I must say that regular users have plenty of choice. Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Kubuntu, Ultimate Edition, Ubuntu 10.04 LTS under gnome 2.32. Nobody is forced to use the latest release. For my part, I am not a fan of Ubuntu and I've never installed.
Ubuntu has many faults but he does not carry with him those gnome 3. We are always free to choose these derivatives.
I prefer Sabayon, Pardus (the best integration KDE in the distro) and for newbies Mandriva, PC-LinuxOS, VectorLinux (really best Slackware for newbies) and for the fun PC-BSD for last 3 years.
#79 Vous avez fait un bon choix mais je ne crois pas que l'on peu mettre Ubuntu et PC-BSD dans la même catégorie. Ne serait-ce la performance en terme de rapidité et a d'autre niveau.
This only opinion
94 • Why fuss (by Taigong on 2011-06-29 02:57:47 GMT from Canada)
From reading the comments, many people who had negative opinion about the latest Ubuntu were not happy about the Unity interface. But there is a simple way to deal with it. You can search for the word "login" and get the program called "login screen". Then unlock it and select "Ubuntu Classic" as the default session. The launcher will be gone, and it will be just like the old Ubuntu.
95 • @94 (by fernbap on 2011-06-29 03:13:27 GMT from Portugal)
The problem is that, because of unity, Ubuntu crippled the "classic" gnome desktop. It just doesn't work as it should.
So, it is not between chosing one of the other, it's between Unity and a crippled gnome. No options there.
96 • #63 (by Taigong on 2011-06-29 03:23:30 GMT from Canada)
Your comment made me laugh. It sounded so childish to me. You think buying things from Amazon or donate to Ubuntu gives people the right to be vocal and even angry? We have seen people being vocal and/angry to many distros (without donation to the distro or buying from them) way too often here in this forum. They don't need you to give them the right, they just being vocal and angry whenever they want. Oh, by the way, did you pay for the right? LOL!
On the other hand, so many people bought MS and Apple products, and being "vocal or angry". So what, MS and Apple don't give a xxxx. They don't change their strategy just because you bought the right to be vocal and even angry.
So do as 87 said "Stop pissing and whining at Ubuntu - either accept their changes, make the changes to their software to meet your needs, or select a different distro."
97 • @95 It works fine for me (by Taigong on 2011-06-29 03:30:11 GMT from Canada)
I have been using the latest Ubuntu with change to the "Classic" interface almost everyday. The Gnome desktop works just like it has been for years. Didn't see or feel anything being crippled. What problem did you get?
98 • *buntu (by PDR60 on 2011-06-29 03:38:48 GMT from United States)
I loaded up Dapper (6.1) when it was released and was so impressed I did a how to on the Kubuntu site that was pretty popular. But as time went on I had a few issues and ended back with "my old comfortable shoe" in Debian. Then I tried 9.1 and was duly impressed. But went back to Debian again. Last year I tried 10.1 while waiting on squeeze. I think I'll stick with Debian. You load up testing and never look back. The whole rolling release idea is just too easy. And since all the spinoffs are based on Debian, why not just run the real deal. I don't think I'll be switching again for some time. I like the way Debian works because it does just that; It works. I've never been a fan of Gnome so the whole Unity vs. 3.0 is irrelevant to users like me. We had our dose of heartburn with KDE4. Us KDE users can put the antacids up for a while while we feel you Gnome user's pain. You will prevail though.
99 • Dear Ubuntu (by Bill on 2011-06-29 05:00:41 GMT from United States)
I started using Ubuntu with Hardy just over a year ago. I have a dual boot system because I wasn't sure I'd like Linux. Man I fell head over heels in love with it. So I progressed to 9 10 and 10 10 and 1104. Wow was I ever surprised. Fortunately while reading online to better hack into Linux, I found Distrowatch at about the same time I discovered Virtualbox. Waaahooo I've tested about 61 versions of Linux since then. For me, I hate Unity and was very disappointed when told it would be forced upon me. But for the mean time, I have some choices, Mint, Trisquel and Zorin which are staying with Gnome 2 in the here and now. Xubuntu I like, Lxde Mint, and of course Debian. I tried KDE but it was too much like Windows and I prefer to be able to look under the hood and change out pieces which is easier for me with Gnome 2.
I was so happy discovering Ubuntu and now already I have to leave it.
Hope they change there minds down there, but they probably won't.
Thanks for Distrowatch! :-)
100 • Ubuntu and Gnome 3 (by Deemon on 2011-06-29 06:21:56 GMT from Germany)
I have actually fallen in love with Gnome 3. My problem to day is whether I should dump Ubuntu for Fedora as Gnome 3 is bit slow in Ubuntu 11.04. Maybe, I'd try to install Gnome 3 in Ubuntu 10.04 and see.
Actually, in most parts in the world, MS windows is free. In Europe, if you wait a while, checking the supermarket few days, you can buy a laptop at 30 to 50% less as laptops had become a commodity there. So, if you buy the laptop at 30% less, you are getting the Windows free.
There is also a way to use OSX in PC comps and laptops. I had used OSX10.6, which is a closed BSD system. Its quite easy to use, and without buying a Mac. Most probably illegal, but that is a relative meaning.
101 • Ubuntu (by Davep57 on 2011-06-29 07:53:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
I stopped using Canonical/*buntu due to the attitude they have taken towards the upstream communities such as gnome and debian. I am not worried if they want to try different or new technologies that is fine by me, how else do we move on? But to use the upstreams as they have done and not give back is not what the linux community is about. The final straw was how they treated gnome. I think the ubuntu clan have gotten too big for their boots.
102 • Crunchbang 10 (by Deemon on 2011-06-29 08:19:36 GMT from Germany)
Can Gnome 3 be installed to Crunchbang 10?
103 • @102: Crunchbang 10 (by windsnake21 on 2011-06-29 09:17:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
Crunchbang 10 is based off Debian Stable, and I believe that GNOME 3 is still in the extra-unstable "experimental" branch of Debian at the moment, and will never be available for Squeeze (the current version of Debian Stable), so trying to install it on Debian Squeeze will probably cause you more trouble than it's worth in regards to dependency requirements and stuff.
Perhaps you could try Archbang instead, which uses the same standard desktop setup as Crunchbang, but using the rolling-release Arch Linux as a base instead of Debian Stable, and GNOME 3 is available in the standard Arch repositories, so it would be much easier to install it.
104 • Thanks! @103 (by Deemon on 2011-06-29 10:36:43 GMT from Germany)
I have both Archbang and Crunchbang and I'd try to install Gnome 3 in Archbang.
It looks like, even though Debian has a large repo, it is quite backward than Arch. I wonder, why Corenominal went to Debian...
105 • Dear Ubuntu (by Kolaloka on 2011-06-29 17:23:08 GMT from Czech Republic)
I think Jesse put it for us all. I agree just with all he said.
106 • take a look at post 100 and think a minute (by woodsmoke on 2011-06-29 18:31:46 GMT from United States)
Deemon brought up a very good point.
There was an essay in a big computer magazine some time ago that was arguing the point that possibly "Linuxdom" should de-emphasize promoting the idea of "free" because when the other OS is so low in price that the price is moot then "free" is of no value.
The subtext was that "Linux" is now in the stage of "nuancing" things. Aside from the unsolvable problem of patents on flash etc. and hardware manufacturers tied to MS, what can "Linux" do to get itself on more platforms aside from change the paradigm.
The Plasma Interface was a step like that, Compiz, was also, X! are all paradigm shifts.
In like manner Unity and Gnome3 are paradigm shifts, which are scalable through many hardware platforms.
just some thoughts but Deemon brought up, to me, a very important point.
107 • @74 (by cba on 2011-06-29 19:17:18 GMT from Germany)
I could not find anything about this topic at x.org.
There might be a possibility that some distros do not want to support 3D hardware acceleration with mesa-classic drivers for older cards and wish to support the new Gallium 3D architecture for newer cards only.
Or something breaks with this new xserver version with respect to older cards and no one wants to fix it. :-)
Here is one example for older ATI cards:
In this special case only 3D hardware acceleration has been lost.
But this does not mean that 2D support with 2D hardware acceleration is gone.
The nv driver is also not abandoned (it can be found in the Ubuntu Natty universe repo, for example), it works better than nouveau on some older NVidia Chips (e.g. Geforce 4x 440 onboard and the very old Riva128 chip).
Up to now, nothing is dropped by xorg, not nv, not glint, not mga, nothing.
108 • @97 classic problems (by dive.ed on 2011-06-29 21:49:42 GMT from United States)
I also though it was broken when I first installed it. If you tried "gnome classic"- no effects, it worked fine. If you tried "gnome classic" the program windows lacked a title bar and could not be resized or easily moved.
Easy fix was to install "CompizConfig setting manager" and enable "Window Decorations" under the effects tab. I think some users didn't find the answer to the problem and gave up on using "gnome classic" and Ubuntu 1104.
109 • Mint (by Onyx on 2011-06-29 23:32:00 GMT from New Zealand)
thank you so much for LMDE. It is truly remarkable, in that it is a rolling distro that is STABLE and allows me to get my work done. Thanks for not following what all the cool kids are doing, and sticking to what Just Works!
-Dell Inspiron 17R notebook, Kernel 2.6.39, Gnome 2.30, Iceweasel 5, Chrome 12, Icedove 3.1. Happiness.
110 • crash and crash with Flash (by gnomic on 2011-06-30 00:57:38 GMT from New Zealand)
Took the latest PCLinuxOS with KDE for a trot yesterday. After an hour or so with perhaps 10 tabs open in Firefox, the browser announced the Flash plugin had crashed. Tried restoring the session several times, sometimes removing the tabs which seemed to be giving trouble. Alas Firefox was unable to stay up for longer than 10 minutes before yet another nosedive. Gave up in the end.
Is it just me, or does that dratted Flash seem to be getting more crash-prone than ever? I had become used to Firefox being almost unbreakable in the 3 series, but it appears the same can't be said of Ff 5 and what is presumably a very current Flash in PCLinuxOS 2011.6. Only tried on a ThinkPad with Intel 852/855gm so far.
111 • @109 (by Al on 2011-06-30 03:30:18 GMT from Canada)
LMDE is based on Debian Testing so it is not a true rolling release. It will be frozen for several months as the release of Wheezy approaches. Also, Debian Testing is excellent, but it is by no means stable (else it would be called stable). After you go through a few major release goal implementations, you'll have to agree. They can be rough at first, but they usually get fixed pretty quickly. But not always, like the time I didn't have sound for 2 months. I don't know how LMDE can insulate it's user's from that sort of thing.
112 • @111 (by Onyx on 2011-06-30 03:55:47 GMT from New Zealand)
Agreed; I should not have given it the label 'STABLE' but rather 'STABLE ENOUGH'. I have used Linux since the days of RH6, and keep coming back to Debian for it's stability not matter what the branch. The last rolling I was on, Sabayon, spent way more time in an unusable state for me. And eventually, because their maintainers didn't want to know about fixes for packages that were NIH...I gave up on it. I didn't like Mint proper due to base of Ubuntu, and how much breakage affects that. But LMDE is really just Debian with a minty flavour. Perfect? No. But great for an experienced *nix user.
113 • Ubuntu and Debian (by imnotrich on 2011-06-30 04:28:12 GMT from Mexico)
The last Ubuntu version that supports the common (not obscure or obsolete) hardware in my laptop? 9.04.
Except for a broken version of Wine Debian Lenny works great on my laptop, including wireless! Wireless setup was painless!
But Squeeze, being a bit of a turkey release doesn't support my laptop's hardware. Pathetic. But not the end of the world, I have options. After rolling back to Lenny I'm pretty happy with things, and I always have windows 7 (it's a dual boot lappy).
My dual core amd64 desktop (again, not obscure or obsolete hardware) had many issues with Squeeze64 too - I wish I could say it's stable, but a more accurate description would be "stable enough most of the time." Believe me, if it wasn't for the things Squeeze did right (that Lenny struggled with) I'd roll back to Lenny on my desktop too.
This is what I like about Linux. There are so many options! It's true developers tend to mold distros as they themselves might want, rather than what the user base wants and needs but such is the life of an opensource project. If we PAID for the distros, developers might spend more time thinking about stuff that's important to users, like stability, hardware support, functionality. Or perhaps not - evidence Ubuntu's business model and reckless desire to create change for the sake of change with those buttons and unity without regard for what the majority of their users might want and need. Am I dreaming?
No distro can be all things to all people. Distros that try often go flop. What's sad is that most distros are too busy focused on innovation and experimentation, that they don't pay attention to what's important - stability, hardware support, functionality, and a variety of packages in the repos that WORK.
Those distros will eventually fade in popularity. The cool thing is many times they will be replaced by distros that do a better job with basic stuff.
114 • @96 (by Craig on 2011-06-30 04:51:15 GMT from United States)
People are always saying "it's free so write your own code or shut up." Now you're saying that those who've contributed by donating or buying their products, also have no right to complain or be heard? Would you just tell them to go find another distro? Any entity or businessman with that attitude won't last in the business world period.
115 • Who uses linux because it's free (free beer?) (by sam on 2011-06-30 09:30:15 GMT from Italy)
All my computers came with windows installled and they now all have Debian (no dual booting). I had already paid for the windows copy in each computer without wanting it but since i didn't have to pay any more money, if the issue was just the finacial cost, i would have remained with windows. But I didn't because that was not the reason. I chose linux because I just love working with with.
I know who use copies of windows and ms office in their pc without genuine licence and without having paid a single cent for them. So far I have not seen the police go for those pc. For them MS windows and their ms office are as free as my Debian and Openoffice. I cannot win them to linux by telling that that linux is free. The only thing they admire in my linux is that I don't talk about virus infection, at least for now.
116 • @ 110 • crash and crash with Flash (by Chon on 2011-06-30 09:40:10 GMT from Thailand)
Tried to do the same thing as you did, but I had no crash or not even slowing down.
nb: I have 3 Gb memory
Running FF5 as well
117 • Gnome3 and Unity (by bam on 2011-06-30 11:16:06 GMT from United States)
I've realized why we now he Gnome 3 and Unity: Unity works great on my Panasonic tough-book. Tough-books are tuff and have touch-screens. We will now start the upgrade on a select 125 tough-books to Unity 11.04. We are also evaluating Gnome 3 using Fedora.The selling point at work, is the ease for the clinicians to access their charts when on the road, or a patients house.
118 • re 116 never enough RAM and Flash problems (by gnomic on 2011-06-30 12:50:45 GMT from New Zealand)
Thanks for your comment. The computer I was using has a mere 1 gig of RAM. Actually I did see something like 'out of memory' in the console now I come to think of it. Perhaps this is what happens when the desktop environment eats up all memory before any tasks get underway. Oh well, back to Snowpuppy aka Midnight Sun Pup. Or maybe Slitaz or austrumi. However, on reflection, haven't seen anything similar with other KDE implementations lately.
119 • Heavyweight title fight: Fedora-15-i386-DVD.iso versus Installer (by zykoda on 2011-06-30 15:39:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Mighty Fight and much fun to install, update, & boot this one. Two downloads, DVD burns, and three installs, each time going through rescue mode to update and fix errors. A mixed collection of read errors on DVD/hardware, GRUB legacy and GRUB2 problems. Never did get the install kernel to boot (panic)...only the updated 126.96.36.199-32 kernel. Now I've got Gnome 3 on the Nvidia FX5200. And still systemd update is outstanding in "perpetual update mode". Maybe I'm pushing the 7 year old Athlon and associated faded polychromatic spaghetti too far! Had to switch DVD's to overcome read problems. Suspect DVD drive...yet another new USB unit had similar problems! Downloads, DVD's all checked OK on two different machines. Enough material for a conference! Normally I would loop mount the iso.
120 • Ubuntu LTS, PCLinuxOS (by Ali Asmar Lo on 2011-06-30 20:25:51 GMT from Finland)
The recent shell/GUI changes on Ubuntu reaffirm my belief that the non-LTS versions are just betas for the LTS versions. All of our home PCs are on 10.04 LTS. When the 12.04 LTS version comes out, I shall certainly try it, but in a VM just like I've tried the most recent several releases and some other Linux distributions. If it does not have a significant improvement in the shell, we'll just stay with 10.04 LTS, and start planning a move to a more predictable distribution. At present, PCLinuxOS is a leading contender, partly because it mainly provides incremental improvements.
Perhaps I'm one of those long-term supporters and promoters whom Jesse thinks have been left by the wayside. It certainly feels that way sometimes. I briefly tried Warty in early 2005, then downloaded a beta of Breezy, and have been on Ubuntu ever since (earlier flirtations with Caldera OpenLinux in 1998 and SuSE in 2002 were short-lived). In fact, this is posted from the very same laptop as was used for downloading and testing Warty, Breezy, Dapper and every LTS release since then, and now runs Lubuntu 10.04 LTS.
121 • Ubuntu, Gnome 3 and Firefox (by Athenroy on 2011-06-30 22:01:20 GMT from United States)
Well, Ubuntu says more people aren't using Linux because the desktop looks ugly and dated. I have a AWN bottom dock as well as Compiz installed on a derivative of Ubu 10.04 and I defy anyone to say my desktop looks ugly and dated! I signed up for the Gnome.org mailing list, they didn't want to hear ANY negative comments, no matter how valid they were!
As for Firefox, I'm not worried about a millisecond of time here or their, what keeps me using Firefox is the multitude of add-ons and themes that the other browsers don't have.
So, in the meantime, I purchased a 1T HDD and have about 7 or 8 distros on it! Everything from PCLinuxOS e17, Bodhi e17, Pinguy OS and a couple of Xfce versions running. I'm retired and I never seem to get bored! So, it's fair well to Ubuntu in any version! You gotta hit'em where it hurts, in their case, downloads!
122 • Sketchup (by Deemon on 2011-07-01 02:12:59 GMT from Germany)
When would the Linux version of Google Sketchup come about?
Google is using GNU/Linux for its operation, but cannot give a Linux Sketchup. I think its quite unfair for Google.
The only reason that keeps me using MS Windows is this program and Autocad.
123 • Unity and Gnome 3 (by Sly on 2011-07-01 02:37:31 GMT from United States)
I have a different opinion of Unity and Gnome3 than the vocal majority on Distrowatch. I think it's visionary.....the wave of the future. As with anything that is new or slightly ahead of it's time, the user community will eventually see and understand the vision.....and then catch up. My only gripe, and it is a HUGE gripe, is that I can't use my old equipment with it. So I'll be sticking with the lighter-weight desktops until I trade in my old computer for something newer.
124 • CrunchBang (by sbcc on 2011-07-01 03:09:54 GMT from United States)
I gave Ubuntu's Unity environment about three days of trial before I gave up. I looked elsewhere. Tried Gnome 3 on Fedora, tried the PCLinuxOS KDE, LXDE and Phoenix spins, tried Lubuntu and Xubuntu, and on and on. Finally, I found what for me is the perfect desktop environment in CrunchBang Statler XFCE. It is obvious that a lot of thought about usability vs. bloat went into the design in a very successful way. Simplicity without lacking features, much faster than Ubuntu, easy to configure. Very good support in the forums.
Thank you corenominal!
A very happy #! user
125 • 124 welcome to the club! (by woodsmoke on 2011-07-01 03:28:44 GMT from United States)
Yeppers on Statler but for the PURIST...they/we use the previous iteration, but YES... #! is QUITE A DISTRO!!
126 • Re #123 Unity and Gnome 3 the wave of the future? (by imnotrich on 2011-07-02 01:26:12 GMT from Mexico)
More like the tsunami of doom and destruction.
Like, when Apple (and later PC makers) abandoned the floppy drive & (netbooks and some apples) abandoned the optical cd or dvd drive as well. That wasn't visionary, it was a disaster. Granted, floppies may be a little out of date but CD's and DVD's are still very common.
Were users asked what they wanted in their laptops and desktops? OF COURSE NOT. The developer decided they would no longer support certain types of hardware, and so it was done. Sounds a lot like what happens with some Linux distros except - if you're looking for a computer you have two basic choices, PC or Apple. And now that Apples are intel-based (why did Apple go with intel instead of AMD?) there really isn't much difference between PC and Apple re hardware quality.
For me, any laptop without a floppy or optical drive is a toy. Sure, I have usb devices but the whole point of a laptop is portability not a bunch of accessories dangling around all the time.
Unity doesn't run on a lot of "new" hardware either, by the way but that's besides the point. The bulk of any user base does not upgrade their computers every 6-8 months unless they're running e-machines (which typically die an ugly death right around their 1st birthday). Therefore it makes little sense to abandon millions of users with the kms garbage or anything else you might consider "progress."
With Unity and Gnome 3, it could be a case of one step forward two steps back. Even so, developers do a disservice to the Linux community and alienate many users when they release garbage. Being smarter than the average bear, you'd think developers would understand that.
127 • @126 (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 05:38:46 GMT from Germany)
With Unity, Ubuntu made a mistake, but without making mistakes, no one can go forward. Most probably, Ubuntu would learn from the mistake and get back to Gnome 3 or even 2, but it is better to go with Gnome 3 as it is more modern.
LXDE and other similar DEs are practically copies of Gnome, just like we have different independent GNU/Linux distros. This way, we evolve, so there is nothing much to worry. If anyone wants to stay in the former DEs, until the developers make Gnome 3 or Unity better, one can wait. No one is forcing anyone.
One doesn't have to upgrade to Ubuntu 11.04, as 10.04 is quite good. There is no special need to even click upgrade when the window pops up, one can just go on using the original installed distro, for everything works well.
In Linux, we are supposed to enjoy the work of thousands of developers, who do that in their free time, as they enjoy making them. No one is infallible, and we should learn to be grateful.
128 • #123 (by zykoda on 2011-07-02 08:47:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are plenty of cheap used AGP graphics cards that will run Unity/Gnome3. Nvidia FX5200 worked OK for me at £5. Old equipment will now run the aforesaid DEs at very little extra outlay. Having tried both I am not enthused at present, but their time may yet come. KDE4 had a difficult birth, but has achieved comparable utility to the latest KDE3.xx
129 • @127 (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-07-02 13:02:11 GMT from Spain)
LXDE and other similar DEs are practically copies of Gnome.
I wouldn't say so. LXDE is a window manager, a panel and a file manager, mixed with few desktop apps. Most administrative tasks (user creation and the like) are to be done by command line. Gnome is a hundred-armed moster with tons of components, apps, and administrative tools. I use LXDE because it is nor like Gnome at all...
One doesn't have to upgrade to Ubuntu 11.04, as 10.04 is quite good.
Although I am at war with Ubuntu and Canonical, I think this advice is valid. If you know Ubuntu 11.04 is worse than Ubuntu 10.04 is worse, why upgrade? If you can avoid the upgrade, I mean. In fact, one of the things I don't like of rolling distros is that you are almost forced to upgrade, even If you don't want to.
Were users asked what they wanted in their laptops and desktops?
No, I guess they weren't asked. Know what? User's opinion is worth nothing.
Many products out there are know to be hated by their users, and I am not talking only about IT products. Some products are know to be too expensive, not durable, etc, etc, yet people still buy them! You would ask: "Why the hell don't producers fix the product, so the defects everyone hates are over?". And I tell you: "Why the hell are going to listen to the users? After all, they are earning a lot of money selling crap, which is easier than earning money selling something useful".
If consumers stopped buying crap like idiots, no one would try to sell them crap. They would fix the product and sell something that works as expected.
130 • good points by #127 and #128 (by gnomic on 2011-07-02 13:59:59 GMT from New Zealand)
'No one is infallible, and we should learn to be grateful.'
Must say amidst the sometimes overwhelming negativity round here, now and then I want to feel the love. Perhaps occasionally we could pause to consider what using a computer nowadays would be like without Linux and the BSD cousins, even if we find some passing detail irksome. We enjoy operating systems which scale from the enterprise to the hobbyist, often free of cost to the user, and the result of a vast and largely voluntary collective effort, which are in most respects at least equal to the proprietary alternatives if not better. Perhaps a bit more say nothing if you have nothing nice to say?
re #128 Yes, an nv fx5200 w/128 vram worked here with Gnome3. And just about getting used to KDE4 now at 4.6.4 running on Porteus v1 live :-) Believe it or not, with a 8MB video card. No video bling I'm afraid.
131 • @129 (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 14:51:59 GMT from Germany)
Were users asked what they wanted in their laptops and desktops?
No, I guess they weren't asked. Know what? User's opinion is worth nothing.
Well, I don't think this is right; the user's opinion is usually taken seriously. One such is Crunchbang; their forum is very serious and the dev team does look into everything. It is one of the best user oriented distro I have ever seen!
132 • Good points (by fernbap on 2011-07-02 17:23:56 GMT from Portugal)
Have you ever wondered why the poeple that most criticise you are your relatives? The reason is obvious:
1 - they know you well
2 - they are your family
3 - they want the best for you
Criticism is not only important, but indispensable. Without criticism, you would drift further and further afar from reality.
Such as Linux. Linux doesn't live for itself, it lives for its users. That is its reason to exist. If the users are unhappy, they will cast Linux out of their family.
'No one is infallible, and we should learn to be grateful.'
Each time i read such comment, it is in a situation where someone screwed up, but we should love him nevertheless. Anyway, such a comment achieves nothing. It isn't good to anyone.
Sorry, real life isn't like that. If the users don't like something, they will stop using it, and until some developers learn that they need the users as much as the users need them, such comments will always appear and solve nothing.
133 • clarification (by imnotrich on 2011-07-02 17:36:11 GMT from Mexico)
Maybe I wasn't clear so let me clarify.
Users buy crap because they often have no choice.
You go to Wal-Mart looking for products made in the USA, and are disappointed.
You still think PC's and Laptops are made in the USA.
If your choice is a PC with a junky motherboard and intel CPU or an Apple with a junky motherboard and intel CPU do you really have a choice? (well ok you COULD buy a cheap PC and put APPLE OS on it but that's not the point I'm trying to make).
If your choice is a laptop with no optical drive or a laptop with no optical drive you're going to end up with a laptop with no optical drive. Again, that's not really a "choice."
Your choice, as was pointed out - is to not buy anything at all. But then what will you use for a laptop, an abacus? Is there any abacus out there that comes with wifi and long battery life? No, I thought not.
So anyway the point I was trying to make is - with hardware, you really don't have much of a choice. You get what the manufacturer offers. With Linux, you have some choice - you can become a distrohopper, or learn to code (to fix things the developers break).
After a while though being a distrohopper can make you seasick. Oh how nice it would be to have one distro get it right 100% of the time.
134 • @132 fernbap (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 17:48:59 GMT from Germany)
Fernbap, developers are users too!
We can only criticize what others do, and if they don't do it, we won't even know.
There is always someone, who'd think about something, and take action to make it happen. As users, why should we criticize other people's work? We can suggest any ideas, can't we?
135 • @133 imnotrich (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 17:52:43 GMT from Germany)
Well, imnotrich, in the very near future, there won't be any laptops and desktops too. There'd be only touchpads of some kind, smaller screens take with you in your pocket and larger screens to keep at home/office...
136 • Choice: buy a bad product or no product at all? (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-07-02 18:11:02 GMT from Spain)
Users buy crap because they often have no choice. [...] Your choice, as was pointed out - is to not buy anything at all. But then what will you use for a laptop, an abacus?
That's true. However, by buying something you don't like, you are paying hardware vendors to keep on building crap.
Spain, for example, has the slowest and most expensive Internet services in this area of Europe. People know this. People keep on paying. That way, no ISP is going to improve service quality: they are earning lots of megabucks, so why should they take the effort? My aproach? ------Do not hire an spanish IPS, and use public wifi or borrow your friend's modem when needed.
If you don't like "toy-PCs" then make sure no vendor earns money for it. Buy used PCs. That way, the guys that created that crappy PC with that junky motherboard will lose a sale. GNU/Linux is flexible enough to work in a toaster, so you won't have many problems running it in a prehistoric machine. If more power is needed, just expand memory or whatever you need. In addition, you will dodge the Windows Tax.
By the way: abacus are great calculation tools, really :-)
137 • @Deemon - 134 (by fernbap on 2011-07-02 18:22:30 GMT from Portugal)
"Fernbap, developers are users too!"
I should know that, i am one.
There is one factor in any social activity that should always be recognized: the right to disagree. In the FOSS world, if you disagree, you can do several things:
1 - stop using the product
2 - express your discontent, so that the developers realise that the product isn't offering what it should to some users.
3 - do nothing.
Obviously, noone wil gain anything in the cases of 1 and 3.
Position 2 could eventually lead to an improvement on the product so that both the developers and the users will gain from it.
Developers are blind if they don't get any feedback from the users.
Lack of criticism will usually lead to a type of schysophrenia. The one that offers the product wil drift further and further away from the "right" path, due to lack of criticism.
One example is distros that have a group of fanboys always praising it and taking any criticism as a personal offense. That distro will go nowhere.
138 • @137 fernbap (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 18:47:36 GMT from Germany)
2 - express your discontent, so that the developers realise that the product isn't offering what it should to some users.
Not discontent, not criticism, but suggestions, ideas, wishlists, etc
139 • Choices (by Jesse on 2011-07-02 19:01:44 GMT from Canada)
The idea that all hardware is crap and so we don't really have a choice isn't realistic. For example, a user further up complained they couldn't buy a PC with a floppy drive. It's still possible to buy floppy drives. They usually don't come bundled with off-the-shelf PCs, but you can still get them. You can either buy a drive and install it yourself or hire a pro to do it for you.
Likewise if you don't like the current offerings from the various makers, you can buy parts and assemble your own or (again) get someone to do it for you. There are plenty of options which allow you to get the computer you want and not pay manufacturers for bad offerings. But don't just keep buying whatever is handed to you and then complain there aren't any options. If you want a non-standard machine put in the leg work.
On another note, I think it's healthy to point out flaws in software. As long as it's done reasonably and politely, it's a great way for developers to improve their projects. I like it when users e-mail me and say, "I wish your software did this" or "Your software should be able to do that." If all I ever got was an inbox full of positive feedback my products wouldn't improve.
140 • @ Jesse (by Deemon on 2011-07-02 19:12:24 GMT from Germany)
If all I ever got was an inbox full of positive feedback my products wouldn't improve.
I don't think so, if you are a self respecting developer, which means a maker of something new, which is also an art. You would always strive to improve, with or without criticism.
You are your main critic, and most of the scientists in the labs, don't even have critics, but they continue to improve. Even human cloning appears to be not much of problem these days.
Feedback should be, wish list should be, but not criticism. Anyone can criticize, but most can't do anything new or even improve something. Most times these are ones who criticize!
141 • Stop using products (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-07-02 19:39:35 GMT from Spain)
The idea that all hardware is crap and so we don't really have a choice isn't realistic.
I agree, but those who don't think so have the right to protest, and the better way to do so is to attack manofacturer's economy. As I have said, many comertial products will listen no users, no critics, no magazine reviews... but will respond when sales go down.
In the FOSS world, it is not that easy. You cannot stop buying something that has never been for sale. Ok, I use to contribute with money and bug reports to many FOSS software pieces, so if a distro/app started to do extrange things, I could stop contributing.
That wouldn't be constructive at all. Obviously, if you don't like the software anymore, you'd better spend your money somewhere else (another FOSS proyect, or an animal protection organization, maybe). But you have to tell the world what is wrong with the software and try someone to fix it. Without reports, FOSS is not to improve quickly.
142 • @jesse (by fernbap on 2011-07-02 20:22:56 GMT from Portugal)
"Feedback should be, wish list should be, but not criticism. Anyone can criticize, but most can't do anything new or even improve something. Most times these are ones who criticize!"
Not quite. You are free to criticise whatever you want, regardless of you being able to do the same or better.
You don't say "you can't criticise AMD for that processor being bad, because you wouldn't be able to do better".
You don't say "you can't criticise your government because you wouldn't do better in their place".
You don't say "you can't criticise that football player because he is way better than you".
Get my drift?
143 • Developers (by Jesse on 2011-07-02 21:12:30 GMT from Canada)
@140: >> "I don't think so, if you are a self respecting developer, which means a maker of something new, which is also an art. You would always strive to improve, with or without criticism."
I may always strive to improve my own software, but without feedback from the users I'm only applying changes I would find useful. I'd fix the bugs I could find and add the features I want, but that doesn't mean the software gets better from the point of view of the user base. Developers need feedback (good and bad) otherwise they're just thrashing about.
I'm sure most of us have noticed that developers (myself included) are often bad at judging what end users really want. If they don't speak up, we don't know what they want. So if we're doing something right, it helps to know. If we mess up, we need to know that too.
@142: I'm not sure why you attributed that quote to me?
144 • @ Deemon (by Blue Knight on 2011-07-02 21:12:39 GMT from France)
You think completely upside down, sorry. Of course we can, and even we MUST, express our discontent and/or criticism! Suggestions, ideas, wishlists also of course but these are two different things. It's the failure, which doesn't go, which crash, or anything else, which makes to go up and progress...
145 • multiple replies to my comments. (by imnotrich on 2011-07-02 21:28:34 GMT from Mexico)
As a computer tech, I need to have capabilities others may consider obsolete. Floppy drives. Zip drives. Serial port devices. CD and DVD roms. Heck, I've been around the business long enough to remember before floppy drives we used...audio cassette tapes for data storage.
So you can imagine my surprise when I found a tower with an ECS mobo (not known for quality or versatility) that used a dual core amd64 CPU and supported SATA, IDE, and had an integrated floppy drive controller! Dropped in controller cards for extra usb ports and a serial controller card, then a combo 3" & 5" internal floppy drive and poof! It's on my workbench.
But most hardware mfgs are very narrow as to what they support (some distros too). That may be partially because of planned obsolesence. They want you to buy/download new stuff so they make their stuff less capable vis a vis old stuff. Some nerd decides that a certain technology is obsolete...like floppies or more recently optical drives, and it's a done deal. No input from the community.
#135, I doubt tablets and smart phones will ever become the dominate computing tool for serious work as long as the human hand remains the same size. How fast can you type on a tablet? If you're like me and can type 80-100wpm on a regular keyboard but due to a case of fat finger disease your speed drops to 4 wpm on a tablet, you tell me which is the better tool. How many cd's, dvd's can you read with that tablet? Do you even have usb capability? Does it support Flash? Is the lcd or led screen crack resistant or crack prone?
Another advantage laptops and PC's have over tablets and ipads and ipod touch type devices - size of the display. I want to be able to see what I am working on without my glasses. Even with my glasses, I can't read what's on the screen on smaller devices which makes them unusable for me. Are those displays even visible in daylight? No, most of them are too weak and wash out.
#136 I'm not old enough to remember using an abacus, but I do remember sliderules. Like normal flush toilets (before envirowhacks and global warming fraudsters screwed everything up) sometimes the old engineers knew what they were doing when they designed this stuff.
Regarding internet speeds in Spain, you are partially correct - if consumers are complacent nothing will change. But are you sure this isn't a case of giant govt protected monopoly that has no incentive to improve their product? Is there little or no competition?
Not purchasing computers that are on the market is not an option, especially if you need a complete and up to date OS, as "prehistoric" computers are by and large unable to run most of the distros released in the last 5 years or so. Yes, I know there's puppy and other distros that have variants which try to support older hardware. But if for your work and play you need a full size distro OS AND backwards compatibility, you need modern hardware.
#138, #139 #140 I've been a forum contributor, I've submitted bugs (although there's nothing more annoying when the process to submit bugs fails due to bugs or broken web page links), and I've donated cash now and then. It's been my unfortunate experience that many developers think they walk on water, therefore constructive suggestions from the masses are not worth their time. And that's sad. I don't have the skills to code or even respin something but I try to contribute in other ways.
#141 (and others) You are right that manufacturers will not care about individual user opinions. When sales go down, the manufacturers will respond - what you're forgetting is that response is to go back to the same engineer who designed the systems that tanked and have him or her design new systems people don't want. This cycle may repeat several times before the manufacturer replaces the engineer. But most of the time, the USERS and CONSUMERS are not asked what they needed. Therefore the manufacturer (or in case of distros the developers) are clueless. They will thrash about hoping to find the right combination, rather than simply asking actual PEOPLE.
Novel concept, customer service.
146 • Response to 145 (by Anonymous Coward on 2011-07-02 23:21:51 GMT from Spain)
Regarding internet speeds in Spain, you are partially correct - if consumers are complacent nothing will change. But are you sure this isn't a case of giant govt protected monopoly that has no incentive to improve the product? Is there little or not competition?
There is competition enough. There are three ISP with their own networks, and LOTS of virtual ISP. I have recently been told that Telefónica (the big one here) has been fined because of having the technology to improve the network and refusing to use it.
I find that stupid. I don't know why the govermment is to fine a corporation just because it sells a cripped product (when it is not dangerous). It seems to me a little like punishing Katana makers because they don't sharp the blades before selling them. In a reasonable world, consumers would have taken down this problem by themselves.
Not purchasing computers that are on the market is not an option, especially if you need a complete especially if you need a complete and up to date OS.
Some used PCs I have found for sale are damn modern, finding one that fits your needs is a matter of searching. However, if you need the computer to serve some specific purposes (or if you are just a computer guru), it may be better to build your computers from components. Most of the computers I have ever had were build the Frankenstain style: get some dead computers, build a working one with them!
By the way, I have a computer with Debian Lenny working with less than 200 Mb of RAM. Is not the fastest thing on earth, but it is capable of running LXDE and all the basic apps my mother needs without problems. When I installed Lenny, I had an old computer with a modern OS and a floppy device! Its BIOS, however, is worse than bad.
Oh, and abacus are not a thing of the past. Half Asia still use them instead of electronic calculators. Abacus need no batteries and keep your mind alive, while offering speed in many math operations. The batteries issue is very relevant in places were you are not likely to find a store selling them, such in many third world countries.
147 • gnome 3 and unity (by walter_j on 2011-07-03 05:24:05 GMT from Canada)
I understand that gnome has stopped development of gnome 2: Canonical devs had a major disagreement with gnome devs and so developed unity. Needless to say, many users strongly dislike both unity and gnome 3.
Jessie is right that ubuntu is ignoring many user's concerns regarding unity, but he may be missing the bigger issue that gnome has stopped work on gnome 2. There alternatives at this point seem very limited for ubuntu:
1. Continue development of unity - hopefully considering many of the issues that have been pointed out here and other places.
2. Hope gnome 3 also considers concerns raised about it and makes changes that meets those concerns.
However, I have misgivings about both options:
Ubuntu seems to be abandoning gnome 2 desktop users in favour of a tablet type DE. I'm not sure if thats gnome's objective with gnome 3 too. If this is their objectives, our choices seem to be limited to accepting these changes, and eventually moving to either gnome 3 or unity or change to other DE such as kde: (I'm not sure if the gnome 3 changes will eventually impact xfce too, since it's based on gnome).
Other gnome options may be to hang on to gnome 2 for as long as possible, or to fork it. Right now everything seems to be up in the air, and the way forward from this mess is unclear to me. I'm trying kde (kubuntu 11.04) but i'm having lots of lockups that I don't experience with ubuntu 10.10. What a mess eh, and I think gnome 3 and unity have a ways to go to become stable enough to use in a work enviroment (maybe years).
148 • @142,143 and 144 (by Deemon on 2011-07-03 06:59:45 GMT from Germany)
You guys really go off the tangent, don't you?!
It takes one man's mind to think of something new. He may brainstorm with others, but without him thinking about the new stuff, it won't come out. The problem of the GNU/Linux community is discontent, nothing else.
Linux is most times better than other operating systems, buy never catching up more than 5% of the users. Even Google, which uses Linux to run their operation won't give Sketchup to us, so we have to use Windows, if we want to design in 3D.
That's the problem; discontent. They give it free, but we ask and demand. Why would a developer strive that much to stay on the right side of the users, if he won't get a penny for it? Not even a real thank you?
In this thread I hear only discontent and whines.
149 • @22 - cba (by Don Alfredo on 2011-07-03 11:19:21 GMT from Belgium)
Thanks to your mention of openSUSE Evergreen project , i now have un "up-dated" "out-of-mantenance" openSUSE 11.1-
i was not aware of the existence of Evergreen, tested it, updated my system before writing this comment;
Like many others, i prefer getting the work done than having a flashy latest distro
Jesse, Ladislav , a short article about openSUSE Evergreen might be well received by a lot of readers.
150 • Ultimately... (by Al on 2011-07-03 13:39:05 GMT from Canada)
If there is no incentive, things won't get done. This applies to all discussion previous to this post regarding quality, features, hardware, choice, etc. End of story.
As much as you think your opinion or views matter, they don't matter to the supplier if their incentives are not met. FOSS is not immune to this principle.
Your choice ultimately influences the incentives of your supplier. It just takes time. We are very impatient nowadays though and don't want to wait.
OK, complaining is human nature and all of the above is common sense. Take a breath, power down your laptop and go enjoy life.
Number of Comments: 150
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
|• Issue 841 (2019-11-18): Emmabuntus DE3-1.00, changing keys in a keyboard layout, Debian phasing out Python 2 and voting on init diversity, Slackware gets unofficial updated live media|
|• Issue 840 (2019-11-11): Fedora 31, monitoring user activity, Fedora working to improve Python performance, FreeBSD gets faster networking|
|• Issue 839 (2019-11-04): MX 19, manipulating PDFs, Ubuntu plans features for 20.04, Fedora 29 nears EOL, Netrunner drops Manjaro-based edition|
|• Issue 838 (2019-10-28): Xubuntu 19.10, how init and service managers work together, DragonFly BSD provides emergency mode for HAMMER, Xfce team plans 4.16|
|• Issue 837 (2019-10-21): CentOS 8.0-1905, Trident finds a new base, Debian plans firewall changes, 15 years of Fedora, how to merge directories|
|• Issue 836 (2019-10-14): Archman 2019.09, Haiku improves ARM support, Project Trident shifting base OS, Unix turns 50|
|• Issue 835 (2019-10-07): Isotop, Mazon OS and, KduxOS, examples of using the find command, Mint's System Reports becomes proactive, Solus updates its desktops|
|• Issue 834 (2019-09-30): FreedomBox "Buster", CentOS gains a rolling release, Librem 5 phones shipping, Redcore updates its package manager|
|• Issue 833 (2019-09-23): Redcore Linux 1908, why Linux distros are free, Ubuntu making list of 32-bit software to keep, Richard M Stallman steps down from FSF leadership|
|• Issue 832 (2019-09-16): BlackWeb 1.2, checking for Wayland session and applications, Fedora to use nftables in firewalld, OpenBSD disables DoH in Firefox|
|• Issue 831 (2019-09-09): Adélie Linux 1.0 beta, using ffmpeg, awk and renice, Mint and elementary improvements, PureOS and Manjaro updates|
|• Issue 930 (2019-09-02): deepin 15.11, working with AppArmor profiles, elementary OS gets new greeter, exFAT support coming to Linux kernel|
|• Issue 829 (2019-08-26): EndeavourOS 2019.07.15, Drauger OS 7.4.1, finding the licenses of kernel modules, NetBSD gets Wayland application, GhostBSD changes base repo|
|• Issue 828 (2019-08-19): AcademiX 2.2, concerns with non-free firmware, UBports working on Unity8, Fedora unveils new EPEL channel, FreeBSD phasing out GCC|
|• Issue 827 (2019-08-12): Q4OS, finding files on the disk, Ubuntu works on ZFS, Haiku improves performance, OSDisc shutting down|
|• Issue 826 (2019-08-05): Quick looks at Resilient, PrimeOS, and BlueLight, flagship distros for desktops,Manjaro introduces new package manager|
|• Issue 825 (2019-07-29): Endless OS 3.6, UBports 16.04, gNewSense maintainer stepping down, Fedora developrs discuss optimizations, Project Trident launches stable branch|
|• Issue 824 (2019-07-22): Hexagon OS 1.0, Mageia publishes updated media, Fedora unveils Fedora CoreOS, managing disk usage with quotas|
|• Issue 823 (2019-07-15): Debian 10, finding 32-bit packages on a 64-bit system, Will Cooke discusses Ubuntu's desktop, IBM finalizes purchase of Red Hat|
|• Issue 822 (2019-07-08): Mageia 7, running development branches of distros, Mint team considers Snap, UBports to address Google account access|
|• Issue 821 (2019-07-01): OpenMandriva 4.0, Ubuntu's plan for 32-bit packages, Fedora Workstation improvements, DragonFly BSD's smaller kernel memory|
|• Issue 820 (2019-06-24): Clear Linux and Guix System 1.0.1, running Android applications using Anbox, Zorin partners with Star Labs, Red Hat explains networking bug, Ubuntu considers no longer updating 32-bit packages|
|• Issue 819 (2019-06-17): OS108 and Venom, renaming multiple files, checking live USB integrity, working with Fedora's Modularity, Ubuntu replacing Chromium package with snap|
|• Issue 818 (2019-06-10): openSUSE 15.1, improving boot times, FreeBSD's status report, DragonFly BSD reduces install media size|
|• Issue 817 (2019-06-03): Manjaro 18.0.4, Ubuntu Security Podcast, new Linux laptops from Dell and System76, Entroware Apollo|
|• Issue 816 (2019-05-27): Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8.0, creating firewall rules, Antergos shuts down, Matthew Miller answers questions about Fedora|
|• Issue 815 (2019-05-20): Sabayon 19.03, Clear Linux's developer features, Red Hat explains MDS flaws, an overview of mobile distro options|
|• Issue 814 (2019-05-13): Fedora 30, distributions publish Firefox fixes, CentOS publishes roadmap to 8.0, Debian plans to use Wayland by default|
|• Issue 813 (2019-05-06): ROSA R11, MX seeks help with systemd-shim, FreeBSD tests unified package management, interview with Gael Duval|
|• Issue 812 (2019-04-29): Ubuntu MATE 19.04, setting up a SOCKS web proxy, Scientific Linux discontinued, Red Hat takes over Java LTS support|
|• Issue 811 (2019-04-22): Alpine 3.9.2, rsync examples, Ubuntu working on ZFS support, Debian elects new Project Leader, Obarun releases S6 tools|
|• Issue 810 (2019-04-15): SolydXK 201902, Bedrock Linux 0.7.2, Fedora phasing out Python 2, NetBSD gets virtual machine monitor|
|• Issue 809 (2019-04-08): PCLinuxOS 2019.02, installing Falkon and problems with portable packages, Mint offers daily build previews, Ubuntu speeds up Snap packages|
|• Issue 808 (2019-04-01): Solus 4.0, security benefits and drawbacks to using a live distro, Gentoo gets GNOME ports working without systemd, Redox OS update|
|• Issue 807 (2019-03-25): Pardus 17.5, finding out which user changed a file, new Budgie features, a tool for browsing FreeBSD's sysctl values|
|• Issue 806 (2019-03-18): Kubuntu vs KDE neon, Nitrux's znx, notes on Debian's election, SUSE becomes an independent entity|
|• Issue 805 (2019-03-11): EasyOS 1.0, managing background services, Devuan team debates machine ID file, Ubuntu Studio works to remain an Ubuntu Community Edition|
|• Issue 804 (2019-03-04): Condres OS 19.02, securely erasing hard drives, new UBports devices coming in 2019, Devuan to host first conference|
|• Issue 803 (2019-02-25): Septor 2019, preventing windows from stealing focus, NetBSD and Nitrux experiment with virtual machines, pfSense upgrading to FreeBSD 12 base|
|• Issue 802 (2019-02-18): Slontoo 18.07.1, NetBSD tests newer compiler, Fedora packaging Deepin desktop, changes in Ubuntu Studio|
|• Issue 801 (2019-02-11): Project Trident 18.12, the meaning of status symbols in top, FreeBSD Foundation lists ongoing projects, Plasma Mobile team answers questions|
|• Issue 800 (2019-02-04): FreeNAS 11.2, using Ubuntu Studio software as an add-on, Nitrux developing znx, matching operating systems to file systems|
|• Issue 799 (2019-01-28): KaOS 2018.12, Linux Basics For Hackers, Debian 10 enters freeze, Ubuntu publishes new version for IoT devices|
|• Issue 798 (2019-01-21): Sculpt OS 18.09, picking a location for swap space, Solus team plans ahead, Fedora trying to get a better user count|
|• Issue 797 (2019-01-14): Reborn OS 2018.11.28, TinyPaw-Linux 1.3, dealing with processes which make the desktop unresponsive, Debian testing Secure Boot support|
|• Issue 796 (2019-01-07): FreeBSD 12.0, Peppermint releases ISO update, picking the best distro of 2018, roundtable interview with Debian, Fedora and elementary developers|
|• Issue 795 (2018-12-24): Running a Pinebook, interview with Bedrock founder, Alpine being ported to RISC-V, Librem 5 dev-kits shipped|
|• Issue 794 (2018-12-17): Void 20181111, avoiding software bloat, improvements to HAMMER2, getting application overview in GNOME Shell|
|• Issue 793 (2018-12-10): openSUSE Tumbleweed, finding non-free packages, Debian migrates to usrmerge, Hyperbola gets FSF approval|
|• Issue 792 (2018-1203): GhostBSD 18.10, when to use swap space, DragonFly BSD's wireless support, Fedora planning to pause development schedule|
|• Issue 791 (2018-11-26): Haiku R1 Beta1, default passwords on live media, Slax and Kodachi update their media, dual booting DragonFly BSD on EFI|
|• Issue 790 (2018-11-19): NetBSD 8.0, Bash tips and short-cuts, Fedora's networking benchmarked with FreeBSD, Ubuntu 18.04 to get ten years of support|
|• Issue 789 (2018-11-12): Fedora 29 Workstation and Silverblue, Haiku recovering from server outage, Fedora turns 15, Debian publishes updated media|
|• Full list of all issues|
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the Star Lite, Star LabTop and more. Available with a choice of Ubuntu, Linux Mint or Zorin OS pre-installed with many more distributions supported. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
|Random Distribution |
Thisk Server was a Debian-based Linux distribution designed for PBX (Private Branch Exchange) environments. It uses Asterisk - a free software implementation of PBX.