 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 400, 11 April 2011 |
Welcome to the 400th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! With the release of GNOME 3 last week, many distributions are hard at work not only integrating the radically redesigned desktop into their products, but also considering their options with respect to the end user. These are a complex decisions, especially since opinions about the changes in the most popular desktop environment tend to vary widely. For those who dislike GNOME 3, there are other options, including the subject of today's feature review - Openbox running on top of CrunchBang Linux or the new Unity on Ubuntu; see the interview with Mark Shuttleworth in the news section. Also in the news, CentOS is facing an uphill battle trying to regain the trust of its users, Mageia's Anne Nicolas doesn't fear fragmentation in the Linux developer communities, Canonical discontinues its free CD shipping service, and openSUSE devises a new versioning system for its distribution. Also not to be missed is the regular Question and Answers section which deals with package signing and related security implications. Finally, we are pleased to announce that the recipient of the March 2011 DistroWatch.com donation is the Imagination project. Happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
First look at CrunchBang Linux 10
 The CrunchBang Linux distribution is a Debian-based project with a focus on providing a light, alternative desktop environment. The distro is offered in both 32-bit and 64-bit builds and comes in Openbox and Xfce editions. Looking at the project's website and screenshots suggests that CrunchBang is, in style, a cousin to ArchBang Linux. Both projects have dark interfaces and provide a simple layout. For my trial I grabbed the Xfce 32-bit flavour of CrunchBang. The download page has a colourful description of the distribution: "CrunchBang Linux is not recommended for anyone needing a stable system or anyone who is not comfortable running into occasional, even frequent breakage. CrunchBang Linux could possibly make your computer go CRUNCH! BANG!" I thought this was interesting as the distro is based on Debian "Squeeze", a distribution known for its stability. The website also features a forum with active users and, from my brief time spent there, they seem to be a helpful bunch.
The CrunchBang live CD boots into a mostly-black Xfce 4.6 desktop. A task switcher sits at the bottom of the screen and a Conky status panel takes up the right-hand side. Moving over to the left of the display we find a quick-launch bar with icons for starting commonly used programs. There's no traditional application menu button; right-clicking on the desktop brings up the menu. I didn't find a system installer in the menu and so rebooted and requested the graphical installer from CrunchBang's boot menu.
CrunchBang Linux 10 - finding application and changing settings
(full image size: 99kB, resolution 1366x768 pixels)
The CrunchBang system installer is basically the same installer that comes with Debian "Squeeze". We select our preferred language and give our location. Once we have confirmed our keyboard layout we're asked to create a user account and set our time zone. The next series of screens guides us through partitioning the hard drive. Manually partitioning is a bit longer and, I found, the process is less intuitive than in most other installers. We then wait while the operating system is copied to the hard drive. We're next given the option to install GRUB. Unlike Debian's installer, we're not asked if we want to connect to repositories or install software to track package popularity.
The first time we login to CrunchBang a virtual console window appears and asks us if we'd like to customize the system. What follows is essentially a text wizard walking us through updating our package repository information, installing any available security updates and then adding optional software to the operating system. We're given the opportunity to install printer support, Java, a Zen-based kernel, OpenOffice.org (AbiWord and Gnumeric are already included at install time), FUSE file system support, and developer tools. Each screen gives a short description of each optional item and we're given a simple yes/no prompt as to whether we want the software. After the wizard finishes we're shown a list of links to the project's documentation.
Assuming we don't install any new software using the first-run wizard, CrunchBang still comes with a good collection of software for common tasks. We're given Chromium 9 for web browsing, the Transmission BitTorrent client, gFTP and the XChat IRC client. We find AbiWord, Gnumeric and Orage in the Office section of the menu, along with the GIMP and an image viewer in the Graphics category. The distro comes with VLC, a disc burner program, GParted and the Synaptic package manager. We're given access to the Xfce configuration tools for adjusting the look & feel of the system. We also get programs for editing text files, working with archives and crunching numbers. CrunchBang additionally comes with the ability to play most video and audio files out of the box and the Adobe Flash player comes pre-installed. At install time the distro doesn't run any network services. Behind the scenes the Linux kernel, version 2.6.32, keeps things running smoothly. In total, the software takes up about 2 GB of disk space.
CrunchBang Linux 10 - office software and the GIMP
(full image size: 121kB, resolution 1366x768 pixels)
Being based on Debian, CrunchBang uses the APT family of programs for package management. The distro is also equipped with the aptitude command-line application. For users who prefer a graphical front-end to software management, CrunchBang features the Synaptic package manager. During my time with the distro I had no problems adding, removing and updating software. Something I found interesting is that CrunchBang is based on Debian "Squeeze" and, unlike its parent, CrunchBang did not require me to remove the installation media as a software source before I could use the on-line repositories. I also found it odd that by default my software sources were set to pull from servers in Germany, rather than the main servers or locations in Canada (where I live).
I ran CrunchBang on two machines, a generic desktop machine (2.5 GHz, 2 GB of RAM, NVIDIA video card) and my HP laptop (dual-core 2 GHz CPU, 3 GB of RAM, Intel video card). The distro detected and used all of my hardware on both machines. My screen resolution was set properly, audio volume was set to a reasonable level and wireless networking was a point-n-click setup. The one quirk I ran into was that the shortcut keys (listed on the Conky panel) didn't work on my laptop. They did, however, work on the desktop machine and in a virtual machine running on the same laptop. CrunchBang doesn't require much RAM, using approximately 75 MB upon logging in and I found that most simple tasks could be performed with 128 MB or less. Responsiveness was good, not amazing, but typical for the Xfce desktop.
Considering the relatively sparse look presented in the project's screenshots and the low-resource attributes of Xfce it may seem odd that my biggest complaint when using CrunchBang was that I found myself disabling so many features. The most obvious unwanted feature is probably the Statler Says pop-up which displays fortunes a few minutes after logging in. Some other things that annoyed me until I turned them off included the pop-up quick-launch panel, the Conky status display, the flashing terminal cursor and faux window transparency. Each of these items has its place, but I felt they were in uncomfortable contrast with what could have been a simple, minimal environment.
CrunchBang Linux 10 - browsing the web and using Heybuddy
(full image size: 98kB, resolution 1366x768 pixels)
Preferred desktop layout & look aside, I didn't run into any serious problems with CrunchBang aside from a few application crashes. The VLC player crashed once trying to open a file and my terminal window was killed during a desktop theme change. CrunchBang does have some good things going for it: the distro has side-stepped the repository problem I faced with plain Debian while keeping the parent project's vast collection of software; the non-free components I wanted were installed by default and I liked the first-run wizard, which gives us the option to add common extras. All of my hardware was picked up and there are applications provided out of the box for common tasks. I would have liked to have seen more applications pre-installed (an email client, dedicated music player and Pidgin come to mind), but I suppose there's only so much room on the CD. Once the system was up and running and looking the way I wanted it to, the experience was pleasantly boring. Nothing really jumped out at me as being great or terrible. Thus far I haven't found any niche CrunchBang fills -- its resource usage, install process and user-friendliness seems to be about on par with plain Debian, so I'm not sure who this project is targeting. My conclusion is CrunchBang appears to be a good tool, I just haven't found any task for it.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Ladislav Bodnar) |
CentOS updates legacy branch, openSUSE creates new versioning scheme, Ubuntu discontinues free CD service, interviews with Mark Shuttleworth and Anne Nicolas, GNOME 3 on Arch Linux
 The developers of CentOS, the most popular among the Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) clones, have finally released version 5.6, some three months after the upstream release. This has alleviated some of the pressure the project's user community has been putting on the developers in recent months. However, CentOS 6 is still nowhere to be seen and as long as this situation persists, there will be critics (the CentOS mailing list is a rather rough place to be at the moment). LWN's editor-in-chief Jonathan Corbet summarises some of the issues facing the project: "The real problem is not delayed gratification; it is that there have been no CentOS 5 security updates since January 6, and only one since December 14, 2010. During this time, RHEL 5, on which CentOS 5 is based, has seen updates for dbus, Exim, Firefox (twice), GCC, hplip, OpenJDK, kernel (thrice)... Since these updates are based on the 5.6 release, CentOS cannot easily pass them on to its users until they, too, have a 5.6 base. Since that base has been slow in coming, all those security updates have been blocked." So what's the solution to the problem? According to LWN, it's the web hosting industry that could help: "One suspects that the hosting industry is getting a better deal than many. Now would be a good time for the top beneficiaries of the CentOS project to roll up their sleeves and put some serious time into making it better."
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 In recent weeks the openSUSE has been discussing the way its distro releases are numbered, with an effort to create some sort of a logical system that would be easy to understand. Now, following a poll and feedback, the project has reached a consensus - the next release will be openSUSE 12.1: "Recently, the project took these discussions to a poll, to gauge community feeling about the different options. Generally, the community expressed that they wanted a scheme that was uniquely openSUSE's and reflected our release methodology. We looked at other distros for examples, and while we felt many had come up with excellent versioning schemes for their distros, none properly reflected our own cycle. From this discussion and results of the poll, we have come up with the following scheme: The .x shall henceforth reflect the month of release: 1 = November, 2 = July, 3 = March. We will no longer ship a .0 version. This solution brings a meaningful rationale to the scheme, without completely revising the look. And thus, our next release in November will be 12.1. In July 2012, we will ship 12.2 and in March 2013, we will ship 12.3. Then in November 2013, we will ship 13.1."
With the recent release of openSUSE 11.4, many users have welcomed the new repository, called Tumbleweed, which allows the more experienced among them to run openSUSE as a rolling-release distribution, similar to Arch Linux. As such, they no longer need to wait for the project's next major release before running the latest software applications. Anastasios Ksouzafeiris shares his experiences with upgrading to and running Tumbleweed: "Tumbleweed is the name of the repository that, once added to your openSUSE installation, allows the whole system to be regularly upgraded to the latest and greatest software, without the need of ever upgrading the OS to a newer, major version of the distribution. The good news is that 'latest and greatest' doesn't mean 'bleeding edge'. That may be the case with the openSUSE Factory repository, but not with Tumbleweed. The bad news is that by turning openSUSE into a rolling distro you'll find yourself re-compiling and re-installing any closed-source drivers you rely on more often than you're probably used to -- and in most cases that entails some extra labor. But that couldn't possibly stop me from trying Tumbleweed, so I set off to a quest for transforming a local openSUSE 11.4 VMware virtual machine (GNOME edition)."
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 Ubuntu's dramatic rise to fame was always heavily "sponsored" by the deep pockets of the distribution founder, Mark Shuttleworth. This is especially true when one considers the project's willingness to ship official CD sets to users across the globe - free of any charge. Unfortunately, this unusual generosity has now come to an end: "Today it was announced that ShipIt, the free CD service that Canonical has been running since the inception of Ubuntu, will be discontinued. Why? A few reasons. Firstly, CD distribution is not really as effective as it used to be, and it is expensive. These days, particularly with the availability of low-cost, hi-speed Internet growing across the world, more and more people are simply downloading the ISO images and burning them to a CD or installing from a USB stick. Canonical felt like it would make better sense to reduce the investment in snail-mail CD distribution and focus it more on LoCo Teams and use those savings to invest in other areas of the project." Does this mean that local Ubuntu communities will still get the free CDs? The answer is positive: "We are still going to provide approved LoCo Teams with CDs!"
One more on Ubuntu - a link to an interview with Mark Shuttleworth as published by Linux User, where the Ubuntu founder talks, among other things, about the forthcoming changes in the distribution: "On the enterprise front, the biggest changes have been in cloud computing and virtualisation. We were the lead distribution to adopt KVM, and that has now become an industry standard in Linux. Ubuntu has taken off on EC2 and Rackspace public clouds, where people are doing amazing innovation, and we've added some features just for cloud deployments that make it easier to keep your infrastructure in the cloud up to date and manageable. We also shipped the only free and open cloud infrastructure, which lets you create your own cloud with a few servers and the standard Ubuntu Server CD. On the desktop front, we introduced Unity, the brand new desktop experience that is designed and tested for usability and efficiency. We will make that our default desktop in 11.04 this April, and we have an implementation both for high-end computers with OpenGL and for low-end computers where memory and graphics are less advanced, in Qt."
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  Among the frequently expressed opinion on many Linux websites and blogs is the topic of excessive "fragmentation" in the Linux community. Too many distributions, too many applications designed for the same task, not enough collaboration between different groups... Speaking to Toolinux, Anne Nicolas, the former vice president of engineering at Mandriva Linux and the current head of the Mageia project (a fork of Mandriva), believes that there is no need to fear fragmentation (article in French): "It's not fragmentation that one should fear, but rather repetition, exclusivity and stagnation. We launched Mageia to give the project keys back to the community, to build a community around healthier and more dynamic operating rules and to allow the community to organise and innovate within the distribution." The interview also expands on the reasons for forking Mandriva Linux, touches on the subject of collaboration with the Mandriva developers, details the work which has received most of the developers' focus, and covers other related topics.
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 The last item in today's news section is about the biggest event of the past week by far - the release of GNOME 3. While the first major GNOME update of the popular desktop project since July 2002 brought many diverse opinions, it's unlikely that many end users would have tried the release since it will take some time before it appears in any of the big distributions. Apart from trying one of the live CDs with GNOME 3, only those users who follow the development or experimental branches of the main distributions, such as the Arch Linux testing tree, had a chance to experience the brand-new desktop: "GNOME 3.0.0 packages are now available in the [testing] repository. These bring with it an update to GTK+ 2, as well as the new GTK+ 3. This is a major update and you should take note of a couple of things: GNOME 3 will replace GNOME 2 once it gets moved to [extra]; GNOME 3 has two modes, 'standard' mode (gnome-shell) and 'fallback' mode (gnome-panel + metacity); panel applets using Bonobo aren't supported any more and packages depending on it will be dropped; PulseAudio is now required to run the GNOME desktop; some packages exist in separate versions for GTK+ 2 and GTK+ 3, these typically have a name like 'packagename3'." More information and upgrade instructions are available on the Arch Linux Wiki.
The visual look of GNOME 3.0 is rather different from its predecessor
(full image size: 1,744kB, resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
All about package signing
On-the-dotted-line asks: Over the past few weeks there has been a bit of an upheaval with regards to package signing (or the absence of it) in the Arch Linux project. For those of us who don't touch source code too much, what exactly is package signing, how does it work, and what are the security implications to not using it?
DistroWatch answers: Over the past month I've been feeling increasingly sympathetic toward the Arch Linux developers. They've been cruising along fine for years, doing what they do so well. Then a few people point out that Pacman, the Arch Linux package manager, doesn't feature package signing and suddenly there are thousands of people up in arms as if the Arch people kicked a puppy. (I mean the cute little animal, not the cute little distribution.) As much as I like the practice of package signing I don't think the Arch team deserves all the flak they're getting.
At any rate, let's talk about signing. What is package signing? Digitally signing a package or a message is a little like putting an ink signature on a document, as you would with a personal cheque. It's a way of verifying the item (message, package, cheque) came from the person you think it came from. A person's digital signature should be unique, letting us know where the package originated. Signing also incorporates a method by which we can verify whether a package or document has been altered since it was signed by the author.
For example, let's say I create a package called FooBar. I sign FooBar with my digital signature, which puts my unique identifier on it and additionally takes a "fingerprint" of the file. Then I send the file to you. Given the included signature (and fingerprint) you can verify that the package came from me and that it has not been altered. Assuming that you trust me, you can then install the package. Were someone to intercept the package before you get it and were they to modify the package, the signature would no longer be valid and you would know not to install the package. Or, if the person who intercepted the package replaced my signature with their own, you'd know it wasn't from me and wouldn't trust it. In short, package signing tells you where an item came from and that it hasn't been tampered with. This is useful when we're installing software because we can be fairly certain that the software in our distribution's repository is trustworthy. When software isn't signed we're at risk of someone breaking into the repository server and replacing software with malware. It's also possible for an attacker to intercept our network traffic and send us the wrong package and, without signing, we might not be able to tell the difference.
In theory the only way someone can send you a package that looks like it came from me is if they get their hands on my signing key, a bit of data that's kept private. If you'd like to experiment with signing your files and messages I recommend trying KGpg which is a graphical front-end for GnuPG. KGpg makes it easy to create your own keys and sign messages. You may also want to read this document on how to use GnuPG to sign and verify files.
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| Released Last Week |
Zenwalk Linux 7.0 "Core"
Jean-Philippe Guillemin has announced the release of Zenwalk Linux 7.0 "Core" edition, a minimalist, but extensible distribution based on Slackware Linux: "Zenwalk Core 7.0 is ready. Zenwalk Core 7.0 is the base foundation of Zenwalk - everything except the X server and desktop environment. Installation process takes about 10 minutes and then you are free to install just the packages you need to create your very own desktop environment or your highly optimized and secured server. Zenwalk Core features the 2.6.37.4 kernel with BFS scheduler, KMS and many performance tweaks. Two kernels are available - the standard one supporting SATA or PATA disks, and a bigger kernel supporting any disk technology from SATA to SCSI. Note: the next version of Zenwalk Core will most probably be included in Zenwalk Standard edition as an installation option." Here is the brief release announcement.
Linux Mint 201104 "Xfce"
Clement Lefebvre has announced the release of Linux Mint 201104 "Xfce" edition, a Debian-based rolling-release distribution: "The team is proud to announce the release of Linux Mint Xfce. Linux Mint Xfce is rolling on top of a Debian 'Testing' package base and uses the same repositories as Linux Mint Debian edition. This offers the following advantages to Linux Mint Xfce: a huge performance boost; a continuous flow of updates which allows users to keep their system up to date without waiting for new releases; a more mainstream desktop and software selection; an easier maintenance for the team which makes it easier to release in both 32-bit and 64-bit with every Linux Mint Debian edition release." See the release announcement for full details.
SystemRescueCd 2.1.0
François Dupoux has released an updated version of SystemRescueCd, a Gentoo-based live CD containing a collection of utilities for disk management and data rescue tasks. What's new in version 2.1.0? "Updated standard kernels to 2.6.35.12 (long-term kernel: rescuecd + rescue64); alternative kernels re-based on linux-2.6.38.2 (most recent kernel); patched alternative kernels with loop-aes-3.6b (encrypt disks using AES); updated Testdisk to 6.11.3 (checks and undeletes partitions + PhotoRec); updated hdparm to 9.36 (utility to change hard drive parameters); updated the Xfce desktop environment to new major version 4.8; updated gDisk to 0.7.1 (the package has been renamed gptfdisk); 32-bit kernels (rescuecd + altker32) compiled for i586 instead of i686." Here is the complete changelog.
CTKArch 0.7
CTKArch is a minimalist, Arch-based Linux live CD (with a hard disk installation option) using the Openbox window manager. A new update of the distribution, version 0.7, was released yesterday: "CTKArch 0.7 released. It took some time because I've implemented something quite interesting: the possibility of turning your live CD into a 'nomad installation', by saving all system changes to the persistent data partition. The script for add-on creation and the installer have required quite big changes to support this and the add-ons without conflicts. Read the documentation, it's full of interesting info! If you have already installed 0.7 with the RC1 ISO image, don't even think of reinstalling - it will give the same result on your hard disk. However, you will certainly want to update the live image on your Flash memory stick or CD/DVD-RW." Here is the release announcement in English and French.
CTKArch 0.7 - a minimalist desktop system with Openbox, based on Arch Linux
(full image size: 1,744kB, resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
CentOS 5.6
Karanbir Singh has announced the release of CentOS 5.6, a Linux distribution built from source packages for Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.6: "We are pleased to announce the immediate availability of CentOS 5.6 for i386 and x86_64 architectures. CentOS 5.6 is based on the upstream release EL 5.6 and includes packages from all variants including Server and Client. All upstream repositories have been combined into one, to make it easier for end users to work with. CentOS 5.6 is the sixth update to the CentOS 5 distribution series; it contains a lot of bug fixes, updates and new functionality." Read the release announcement and release notes for further information.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
March 2011 DistroWatch.com donation: Imagination
We are happy to announce that the recipient of the March 2011 DistroWatch.com donation is the Imagination project, an open-source DVD slideshow maker. It receives US$250.00 in cash.
Developed by Giuseppe Torelli, Imagination is "a lightweight and simple DVD slideshow maker written in C language and built with the GTK+ toolkit." The author writes on the project's website: "I noticed a lack of a user-friendly DVD slideshow maker for GNU/Linux, so I started developing Imagination. True, there are some other GUIs which do the job, but they usually require a lot of dependencies to be installed first and often their interfaces are bloated. Imagination has been designed from the ground up to be fast, light and easy-to-use. It requires the FFmpeg encoder to produce the movie file and libsox to handle the audio. That's correct, you don't need any other third-party software, I like the KISS principle."
Included with the software are many transition effects: "Imagination at present features 69 transition effects, random function to automatically set a random transition on all of the selected slides, cut, copy and paste ability on the slides, Ken Burns ability, text on the slides with some text animations, ability to add an empty slide with a gradient editor and export of the slideshow as OGV Theora/Vorbis, widescreen FLV video and 3GP for mobile phones." Visit the project's screenshot page to see Imagination in action.
Giuseppe Torelli has emailed DistroWatch with a brief thank-you note: "Thank you so much for your generous donation! I've never received a so big an amount of money for Imagination!"
Launched in 2004, this monthly donations programme is a DistroWatch initiative to support free and open-source software projects and operating systems with cash contributions. Readers are welcome to nominate their favourite project for future donations. Those readers who wish to contribute towards these donations, please use our advertising page to make a payment (PayPal and credit cards are accepted). Here is the list of the projects that have received a DistroWatch donation since the launch of the programme (figures in US dollars):
- 2004: GnuCash ($250), Quanta Plus ($200), PCLinuxOS ($300), The GIMP ($300), Vidalinux ($200), Fluxbox ($200), K3b ($350), Arch Linux ($300), Kile KDE LaTeX Editor ($100) and UNICEF - Tsunami Relief Operation ($340)
- 2005: Vim ($250), AbiWord ($220), BitTorrent ($300), NDISwrapper ($250), Audacity ($250), Debian GNU/Linux ($420), GNOME ($425), Enlightenment ($250), MPlayer ($400), Amarok ($300), KANOTIX ($250) and Cacti ($375)
- 2006: Gambas ($250), Krusader ($250), FreeBSD Foundation ($450), GParted ($360), Doxygen ($260), LilyPond ($250), Lua ($250), Gentoo Linux ($500), Blender ($500), Puppy Linux ($350), Inkscape ($350), Cape Linux Users Group ($130), Mandriva Linux ($405, a Powerpack competition), Digikam ($408) and Sabayon Linux ($450)
- 2007: GQview ($250), Kaffeine ($250), sidux ($350), CentOS ($400), LyX ($350), VectorLinux ($350), KTorrent ($400), FreeNAS ($350), lighttpd ($400), Damn Small Linux ($350), NimbleX ($450), MEPIS Linux ($300), Zenwalk Linux ($300)
- 2008: VLC ($350), Frugalware Linux ($340), cURL ($300), GSPCA ($400), FileZilla ($400), MythDora ($500), Linux Mint ($400), Parsix GNU/Linux ($300), Miro ($300), GoblinX ($250), Dillo ($150), LXDE ($250)
- 2009: Openbox ($250), Wolvix GNU/Linux ($200), smxi ($200), Python ($300), SliTaz GNU/Linux ($200), LiVES ($300), Osmo ($300), LMMS ($250), KompoZer ($360), OpenSSH ($350), Parted Magic ($350) and Krita ($285)
- 2010: Qimo 4 Kids ($250), Squid ($250), Libre Graphics Meeting ($300), Bacula ($250), FileZilla ($300), GCompris ($352), Xiph.org ($250), Clonezilla ($250), Debian Multimedia ($280), Geany ($300), Mageia ($470), gtkpod ($300)
- 2011: CGSecurity ($300), OpenShot ($300), Imagination ($250)
Since the launch of the Donations Program in March 2004, DistroWatch has donated a total of US$27,480 to various open-source software projects.
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Liquid Lemur Linux. Liquid Lemur Linux a Debian-based distribution. It uses the latest Xfce desktop, the latest Zen Kernel from Liquorix, Cairo-Dock, and all the usual everyday applications.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 18 April 2011.
Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Unity (by Eric on 2011-04-11 09:50:35 GMT from Netherlands)
Well, I have tried the latest beta of Ubuntu with the Unity desktop. My guess is that I will either abandon Ubuntu (and switch to Mint) or move to KDE, unless they manage to make my applications more easily accessible. I cannot get used to this interface and I fear that my wife will face similar problems. Alternative is that I spend a lot of time to get used to this new interface and spend hours on teaching my wife.
2 • Crunchbang 10 (by Edward on 2011-04-11 09:53:42 GMT from United States)
"so I'm not sure who this project is targeting. My conclusion is CrunchBang appears to be a good tool, I just haven't found any task for it."
Well, Jesse, can you explain "who this project is targetting" and "you just haven't found any task for it"
Btw, have you visited their liely forum for few days to find out who and what of #!?
3 • Re: Unity (by Ricky on 2011-04-11 10:07:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
One thing to consider eric; is using debian squeeze as your operating system, it will be the same gnome 2.x branch you'd be used to in ubuntu, alongside apt-get and other similarities. The good thing is, it will receive security updates for quite a few years without any drastic changes (such as gnome 3).
On the other hand, Ubuntu 10.04 LTS is also supported until 2013... and should keep with the gnome 2.x series for its lifetime.
Kind regards.
4 • #! (by klanger on 2011-04-11 10:30:09 GMT from Poland)
..."CrunchBang is, in style, a cousin to ArchBang Linux"...
-> more like a father or a "mentor"
"My conclusion is CrunchBang appears to be a good tool, I just haven't found any task for it."
-> try it on a 900MHz netbook (#!-Openbox) & you will know what to do with #!
#! is all about forum & it creator Corenominal (+ his wife). It is a community of people who like people & respect each other.
It isn't just a Debian (or former Ubuntu) based distro, it is much more!
5 • #!10 (by freebee on 2011-04-11 10:31:46 GMT from United States)
Conky in #! 10 is a world in itself and lot of users have come up with very nice ideas and scientific work!
#! is mainly a Openbox distro, so it should have been reviewed in Openbox!
Archbang is acousin of Crunchbang, not the other way. Archbang's website tells us that. Have read the Archbang's website lately? Archbang is made in Canada...
6 • Crunchbang (by Ponting on 2011-04-11 10:40:48 GMT from United States)
Actually there are 2 cousins of Crunchbang - Archbang and CTKArch. #! is debian based, but the other 2 are Arch based.
Interestingly, CTKArch website says that it is not a distribution, but "a preconfigured desktop setup of the Arch Linux GNU/Linux distribution."
Maybe many developers should learn to be humble as the young man, who came out with CTKArch!
7 • #! (by Vinze on 2011-04-11 10:51:04 GMT from Netherlands)
I'm sorry to say this but your review of Crunchbang was ... eh .... not that good. You have to spend more time with a distro before you can write a review. I have the feeling that you did not spend much time with Crunchbang. You have to do your homework better according to Archbang!
8 • Archbang is acousin of Crunchbang, not the other way (by mandog on 2011-04-11 10:51:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
And I always thought a cousin was a cousin so lets get this right
if Archbang is a cousin of Crunchbang?
then Crunchbang is a cousin of Archbang?
So what is the confusion if I use Crunchbang then Archbang is its cousin?
If I use Archbang then Crunchbang is its Cousin?
I'll mark it as solved.
9 • senselless Unity, or or a too earlier Unity' (by meanpt on 2011-04-11 10:59:52 GMT from Portugal)
... ubu's boss, the Mark shut something, states Unity is targeting netbooks. But when using it, I find it more geared to screen touch devices than to touchpads. Tweaking gnome 2-3-x for bigger fonts and themes, as well as using menus à la Mint makes it easier for the small notebooks' screens, and the same may be achieved with dock panels and the sort. But when it comes to use our fingers, the launcher and the spaces (the dash is useless) come handy. But then the multitouch capabilities of unity and the 11.04 only supports a narrow choice of devices, lacking in additional drivers' support for newer graphical and touchscreen devices. Most probably the 11-10 release will try to fill some holes, but I'm not betting on 11.04 to work on the real metal, this is, well not install it outside a virtual machine.
10 • #! (by megadriver on 2011-04-11 11:28:04 GMT from Spain)
CrunchBang came first. ArchBang (as its name implies) was inspired by it.
Openbox rocks! It has been efficiently managing my windows, while keeping out of the way, for many years (and many, many more to come, it seems!).
11 • Crunchbang (by Ponting on 2011-04-11 11:52:15 GMT from United States)
The problem is that Jesse gets things done in ahurry and that way his reviews are not that up to date. If on ewrites a review of a distro, one must read what's happening in their forums.
This #! forum is one of a kind, a meeting place of friends!
It is not only a place to ask questions, but also become a friend of all. Before answering the question, usually there is a welcoming note from person, who replies! You don't find that in any of the forums. You are among friends, and that matters!
12 • #! (by Drik on 2011-04-11 11:59:34 GMT from Netherlands)
Hi, not to jump on the bandwagon.But I really feel the review distracts from the nice distro Chrung Bang Linux is. I appreciate the lean and complete distro it is. It's highly & easy adjustable, all the config files are presented clearly (in the Openbox version).
13 • Crunchbang (by Toolz on 2011-04-11 12:00:40 GMT from United States)
A good review. Yes I think Crunchbang should be considered an Openbox distro and Xfce the secondary version so a few words could have been said about that. Actually if both were tried then it might have mentioned how similarly they both behave - that's quite an accomplishment.
As has been said, Archbang arrived while Crunchbang was in the doldrums and I suppose Crunchbang should be considered the 'mentor' - although kudos for Archbang for being first to show that Debian/Arch could be used as a base while the Crunchbangers seemed frozen in a post-Karmic torpor.
However it seems I like most of the things considered redundant in this review. Foremost I love Conky and gmrun. I also like the quick lanuch panel but I'm not a fan of the main panel (tint). The Statler quotes don't bother me at all, and I'm quite finicky with stuff like that (I found myself wanting to disable the 'Husse' quotes in Mint, for example). I got turned off Crunchbang when the themes seemed to get more tinkered with and lower and lower contrast. I think that was rectified somewhat in the latest release.
Regarding the 'use' for Crunchbang ... well for a long time it was a great Netbook distro - hardware was supported with a special version - for me any distro that doesn't use unecessary resources and avoids looking like the typical Ubuntu clone with that Gnome horribleness has a 'use'. Also the lack of apps is a feature. Please don't encourage developers to fill distros up to the ears in apps Jesse!
14 • CrunchBang (by dragonmouth on 2011-04-11 12:08:59 GMT from United States)
Jesse, you object to Statler in #! but have never said anything about "cowsay" and "fortune" in Ubuntu and all its relatives. They are just as obnoxious as Statler but they cannot be turned off or removed without making the system unusable.
15 • why crunchbang? (by gnomic on 2011-04-11 12:09:06 GMT from New Zealand)
It's a distro for the people who like black on black on the desktop - now that's a cult already! However it is possible to change the look out of the box. Importantly, it includes the B6 theme in the Xfce version which should be mandatory :-)
Hmmm, it could be one for those who want a distro with minimalistic demands on hardware?
It's a one man band affair which has taken off and gathered a community. The mainman himself might even respond to your query in the forums, which are active and largely free of snarliness.
I find it reliable in use as a live CD. Haven't seen any serious glitches in recent times.
As it has existed for several years, managed a transition from an Ubuntu base to Debian, and seems to have some momentum going, it must fill a niche of some sort.
Maybe this is a case of if you have to ask you'll never know.
16 • RE:14, What are you talking about? (by OSUnity on 2011-04-11 12:24:38 GMT from United States)
I've seen that stuff in Mint and other distros but I've never seen it in Ubuntu and I've been using Ubuntu since version 5.04. Furthermore any unnecessary app. can be removed if you know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing then I guess it would make your system unusable.:)
17 • Re 16, Re 14 (by Toolz on 2011-04-11 12:42:07 GMT from United States)
I tried to remove 'Husse' quotes in Mint using apt and it wouldn't - unless I accepted the removal of about 30 other rather important packages too.
18 • Congratulations @ distrowatch (by LAZA on 2011-04-11 13:49:31 GMT from Germany)
to the 400th weekly newsletter!
19 • signature (by forlin on 2011-04-11 13:53:09 GMT from Portugal)
After saving my file (or package, document, ...) it can only be tampered in case someone else has access to the place I stored it, or intercept it in it's way to someone else I sent it. What are the chances of these to happen? I don't know. It really depends on many different things.
My first thought is: is it only Arch the big distro (lets say, among the first 25 ones in the DW's phr) not signing their packages?
My second thought is that under "normal" circumstances the real utility of signing a package is only when I send it to "n" different locations that I do not control, where anyone could download it, under the belief that it was mine. I may be wrong, of course.
20 • Moving to KDE-based distro (by Claudia on 2011-04-11 13:57:27 GMT from Slovenia)
I've used GNOME ever since starting to use Linux with Ubuntu, but now with the direction GNOME 3 is going and Ubuntu with Unity I've started to look at better desktop options. I'm really falling in love with KDE. I knew it looked extremely sexy by looking at screenshots and, but I never imagined it also has some very nice features. So it looks like my days with Ubuntu are over and I'm in the search for the best distro with KDE.
21 • RE: 19 (by Landor on 2011-04-11 14:03:16 GMT from Canada)
The biggest problem of not having something signed is anything can go without verification. If a server was compromised, someone could place a package there with ill intent and thus go unnoticed far more easily than a signed package would. It's one more very important step in the whole process of security.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
22 • CrunchBang appears to be a good tool, I just haven't found any task for it (by foxh0und on 2011-04-11 14:05:51 GMT from United States)
Found any task for it? What about computing without the distraction? Being a Window$ refuge I don't miss the days of this bell or that whistle especially if I cannot control it. My journey into Linux has been similar as people are still stuck on the bells and whistles of the latest GUI-because I was the same. Not belittling the projects and camps of KDE or Gnome as they helped wean me off of lesser OS's. However I cannot help but wonder-is there focus?
To me a computer is a tool-if it is functional without the baggage and allows me to complete my tasks distraction free isn't that a beautiful thing?
Getting back to the basics, stripping away the cruft, not getting hung up on the tripe and ultimately: there are living, breathing, flesh and blood users at the other end who just want it to work. Crunchbang has done that for this user. :) Cheers!
23 • @ 21 If a server was compromised (by forlin on 2011-04-11 14:09:47 GMT from Portugal)
Thats right.
But if the server is mine, I know what I'm doing to protect it. If it's of others, I don't know,
That's why I think that signing is really much more important when I send my files somewhere else to be picked up by people.
24 • RE:17 Not so much removing but disableing. (by Eddie on 2011-04-11 14:30:45 GMT from United States)
To stop the fortune telling and cow mooing you can just disable these functions for the terminal. these things take up very little space and do not run when disabled. Not a problem really.
25 • Fortunes etc... (by OpenDistro on 2011-04-11 14:43:43 GMT from United States)
While a pop up would definitely be annoying ... why are the fortunes such an issue to some? ? ?
There have been long threads and debate at some distro sites about them being "offensive" and leading to "divorce." Seriously divorce?
I find them humours, some times eerily on the mark with the comments, and really enjoy them... maybe as a long time *nix user and mainframe user where these came from I get them...
I love em and would not have a terminal that didn't display them.
26 • Gnome3 or Unity or What? (by Confused on 2011-04-11 14:47:00 GMT from United States)
I've been a long time gnome users and definitely have strong opinions regarding Gnome 3 and Unity, but since this is a public forum, I'll be polite - I don't like either. All of this talk about usability testing -- by who, people who never used a computer? If you have to learn a new way to do things, then it is hardly intuitive. If it were, well, then you wouldn't have to learn it, you could just intuit.
Maybe if all you do is surf the web, bet on facebook and the like, these new "social" interfaces make sense. But, if you have to do real work, that's a different story.
Luckily, XFCE allows me to set up a traditional desktop to get work done or even one that mimics the new ones. I remember a time when Linux was about choice. The new gnome-shell and unity interfaces seem to have forgotten that.
[/rant]
27 • Best KDE Distro (by TheRepublicofDistro on 2011-04-11 14:51:34 GMT from United States)
" So it looks like my days with Ubuntu are over and I'm in the search for the best distro with KDE."
The you should head on over to Linux Mint KDE edition... LMKDE is already ahead of the upstream source with 4.6.2 on its users desktops already as of 4/8/11 and the Beta 1 only showing a 4.6.0.
You can get the BEST KDE 4.6.2 desktop going, and still be in the Debian/*buntu family with all the same software available to you.
Just with all the ready to work and play things ready to get to work or play as needed.
so come to the Dragon and enjoy the warm blue.... K
DVD ISO:
http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=76 32b
http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=77 64b
Help forum:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewforum.php?f=109
28 • Few minor items (by Jesse on 2011-04-11 15:13:42 GMT from Canada)
Some people took offense to my comment that I hadn't found a task for CrunchBang and I want to explain that. What I meant was that with Debian available, a distro like CrunchBang doesn't seem all that necessary. CrunchBang is basically Debian 6 with non-free components added and a (very) slightly lighter desktop. I think people who like CrunchBang could probably get along just as well with Debian Stable. People who are technically comfortable enough with Linux to enjoy CrunchBang will should be right at home setting up Debian with an Xfce desktop.
So my point wasn't that there's anything wrong with CrunchBang, it just felt redundant.
29 • RE: 23 - 26 (by Landor on 2011-04-11 15:20:32 GMT from Canada)
#23
That's correct, yes. You have control and those receiving don't. That's the same for anyone using signing. If I run a server I don't really care if the packages are signed or not on it, I've put them there, and with daily verification I can be sure they're the original packages. Signing thus is important for end-user verification that don't have the access to verify the packages on the server daily as I do, in the myriad of ways I have available. It's the end-users we should all focus on to protect. To not have signing is to ignore the potential risks and not care much about the end user's security needs.
RE: 26
I can understand that completely. For my own reasons I don't like LibreOffice. Actually, it has nothing to do with the suite itself, but more in the way the team behaved.
Anyway, I felt, and feel like the distributions were forcing me to use something I didn't want to. I want to still use OpenOffice, yet distributions are removing it.
Linux isn't about choice anymore, not at all. I wrote about this very thing on my new blog. You'll find it as the link for 'Landor'.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
30 • crunchbang redundant (by snowpine on 2011-04-11 15:32:22 GMT from United States)
Jesse, thanks for replying to clarify your "redundant" quote. What you didn't mention is that CrunchBang is one of the premeire Openbox distros. Debian does not provide an Openbox "spin" at this time, so CrunchBang fills an important "niche" in this regard. Your review would have been better had you also tried the Openbox version (in my opinion).
It's also worth noting that the Xfce version of CrunchBang is customized to look and feel as much like the Openbox version as possible, quite different from the "vanilla" Xfce desktop (as you hint at in your review).
As a long-time CrunchBang user (since the Ubuntu 8.04 based release) I've enjoyed the transition from Ubuntu to Debian as the parent distro. It's tempting to think of CrunchBang as "just another Debian derivative" but in fact the community was thriving for years prior to the Debian switch; in a sense, CrunchBang is a "distro-agnostic" philosophy of computing and the community that has grown up around it. For me, CrunchBang is appealing due to its elegance, ADHD-friendly work environment, and playfully-geeky sense of humor. Any distro can be customized to work just like CrunchBang, but it is a nice time-saver to find a distro that provides exactly what I want "out of the box." The only "tweak" I've made in almost 3 years of using CrunchBang is to change the wallpaper; I can't say that about any other distro I've tried!
31 • 400th ... Great ... (by Young on 2011-04-11 15:46:12 GMT from United States)
400th issue. Congratulations and _Thank You_.
32 • Puppy 5.25 (by l2ulinux on 2011-04-11 15:59:44 GMT from United States)
Thanks for listing Puppy 5.25 and not telling anything about it. There are alot of Puppy users that don't think very well of our distro being left out. Thank you again for pushing us away.
33 • Gnome developers are having fun and that's all... (by MacLone on 2011-04-11 16:13:37 GMT from Mexico)
I think Gnome devs are irresponsible. The reason linux
exists is because we all want an alternative to OS and
pricey licenses. So, if the main idea is to replace
windows or mac at your home and/or your work office...
then why a so radical change? I mean, if gnome guys were
serious about the future of linux they should't redesigned gnome3 this way because it means "ALL" users needs to begin a new
learning curve that might be expensive for the business
and hard for the newbies.
What's Linux for you? is it just for distro hopping? Is
it for serious work? what's your real goal?
34 • @20 -- best KDE distro (by uncle mark on 2011-04-11 16:24:36 GMT from United States)
"So it looks like my days with Ubuntu are over and I'm in the search for the best distro with KDE."
Us KDE distro users went through this same uproar with the transition from KDE3.5 to KDE4.x. Lots of people said they were going to move over to Gnome rather than make the move to KDE4.
That said, if you are going to explore KDE distros, might I suggest SimplyMEPIS 11, now at RC2 and as solid and polished as you could ask for. Based on Debian stable, with custom packages built by the community to keep it fresh and current. Stable base, current apps -- the best of both worlds.
35 • RE: #19 signature (by Sitwon on 2011-04-11 16:33:01 GMT from United States)
Slackware does sign packages, but pkgtools does not automatically verify the signatures. Neither does slackpkg (to my knowledge).
36 • Crunchbang is not Archbang's cousin ... it's the father!! (by Leggards on 2011-04-11 16:34:16 GMT from Malaysia)
FYI, Archbang started as (and in many ways still is) an Arch install with configs brought over from Crunchbang's Openbox version. The creator of Archbang (Will something) was a member of the Crunchbang forums and got help from many members with creating Archbang.
Crunchbang is technically Archbang's better, more accomplished (and just as light/fast) father. As a matter of fact, you'll see Crunchbang's influence on many Openbox respins of various distros.
It's also far from redundant, in my opinion. For those looking for a (relatively) light, well thought-out Openbox version of Debian Squeeze (with the ability to easily 'upgrade' to Testing or Sid by simply changing sources), then few distros come close to Crunchbang's level of polish, especially with regards to Openbox.
37 • Liquid Lemur Linux (by Flip23 on 2011-04-11 16:38:31 GMT from United States)
I was pleasantly shocked with this new distro! A work in progress but I found it to be very nice easy to use. I wonder what it will be like out of beta? This is the first time I have felt the need to mention a new distro give it a try.
I have both Crunch and Arch bang installed love them both Hate buntu though always have its the only distro that you can update one program and your system is so broke you need to reinstall so I do not use it.
38 • Fear of Fragmentation? (by frag on 2011-04-11 16:50:44 GMT from United States)
The real question isn't about fear. Linux works with the existing level of fragmentation. No argument there.
The question is, Does fragmentation represent a problem at all? The answer depends upon your priorities. Is it important to have better support from manufacturers and developers?... easier access to more peripherals? If so, then it would be best to consider these comments...
http://www.osnews.com/story/21608/Chrome_Sandboxing_Easy_on_Mac_OS_X_a_Mess_on_Linux
Chrome Sandboxing: Easy on Mac OS X, a Mess on Linux... For Linux, Moskovich explains, the situation is a mess because there are several different mechanisms available, and each distribution (of course...) ships with a different mechanism - or none at all.
http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/features/firefox-4-mozilla-versus-the-world/4/
Firefox 4 adds graphics acceleration for Windows users, but has been having trouble adding the same for Linux. This is understandable, as every Linux system seems to handle display drivers and acceleration routines differently. In Windows, the DirectX layer handles most of the work, abstracting developers from the actual hardware. There is no DirectX layer in Linux, only OpenGL which is handled differently by the two major graphics card makers, requiring drivers to intervene.
With regard to hardware drivers, there is a common misconception that the community will provide drivers if manufacturers will release their specs. There are two problems here.
First, the Open Source community's record with regard to drivers is not without some serious issues...
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODk5MA
One of the points that Linux users commonly say in lobbying hardware vendors to provide open-source drivers and/or documentation -- particularly for GPU drivers -- is that the open-source community will take the released code or documents and from there develop it into a reliable, working open-source Linux driver. However, that isn't exactly true.
Second, manufacturers provide more than raw "drivers". They enhance their products by releasing productivity enhancing support software. Much of this software is junk, but some of it really does enhance the use of the product. Will the community rewrite this support software to work for all the major Linux variants?... and provide continuing updates and security patches?
IMO, "fear" is not a factor - fragmentation is not a dominant issue for the community. However, it is a serious consideration. More consistency in some areas would have advantages.
39 • GNOME 3 underwater? (by Ag on 2011-04-11 17:04:08 GMT from United States)
In your above post you mentioned:
"While the first major GNOME update of the popular desktop project since July 2002 brought many divers opinions, it's unlikely that many end users would have tried the release since it will take some time before it appears in any of the big distributions"
Why are "divers" the main people who tried it? Were their technologies targeting them specifically?
40 • @14 and @17 re: CrunchBang (by Roger on 2011-04-11 17:10:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Try this from the Linux Mint forums:
"Howto: Remove Fortune messages in the Terminal
- open a terminal
- type "gksu gedit /etc/bash.bashrc"
- in the end of the file, remove the line /usr/games/fortune
- save the file.
Clem"
41 • CrunchBang (by Jesse on 2011-04-11 17:14:56 GMT from Canada)
>> " Debian does not provide an Openbox "spin" at this time, so CrunchBang fills an important "niche" in this regard. Your review would have been better had you also tried the Openbox version (in my opinion)."
Fair enough, maybe that would have made a difference. However, I was asked specifically to review the Xfce edition of CrunchBang.
On another note, there are quite a few comments about the "cousin" remark I made and I think it's being taken way out of context. When I said one was, in style, the cousin to the other I simply meant ArchBang and CrunchBang look alike. That's it. I wasn't implying one was better or one came first, just that their GUIs look similar. Which is why I specified "in style".
42 • #! (by hhh on 2011-04-11 17:33:15 GMT from United States)
"...I'm not sure who this project is targeting."
"CrunchBang is basically Debian 6 with non-free components added and a (very) slightly lighter desktop."
Jesse, one problem I've had with trying to get Debian to run on my system is that, since I live in a place where internet is provided by a shared wireless router, I have to use a wireless connection to install it. This is not so much of an issue now that the Live Install images are available...
http://www.debian.org/CD/live/
...but it can still be a pain in the but if you don't have the driver for your wireless card or adapter.
Crunchbang has wonderful wireless support out-of-the-box, even Broadcom users are reporting decent success rates with Crunchbang. For those who kind of like things like having wireless, Flash and DVD playback working out of the gate, Crunchbang fills an important void IMO.
43 • @39 re:GNOME 3 underwater? (by Michael on 2011-04-11 18:24:54 GMT from United States)
The line makes much more sense if you add the letter "e" to "divers". Unless you really don't like diverse opinions either!!
44 • Gnome 3 (by neeraj on 2011-04-11 18:32:52 GMT from India)
..been using gnome 3 on OpenSUSE for some days and I should say I am impressed with the changes so far.Once you get over the minor learning curve with UI changes,,,its far more pleasant experience.There are still minor kinks but soon they'll be put on right track I hope.
45 • #! is mainly OpenBox (by Dan on 2011-04-11 19:00:34 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (troll).
46 • #! (by jd on 2011-04-11 19:34:28 GMT from Canada)
I find the idea of vanilla debian awesome but overwhelmingly tedious to use. With CrunchBang I know I'm getting one hell of a desktop with: the latest and greatest out of the box, various brilliant behind-the-scenes tweaks, and when there's something I don't like I can count on a smoothly running forum full of people who have already customized it to perfection. On the non-technical side, Corenominal (and the moderators) make a lot of great posts and can also be found in the welcome forum.
47 • #! (by Barnabyh on 2011-04-11 19:46:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
I found good tips in a thread on conky configuration on the #! forums. Indeed helpful, and reading some of the messages nice guys there. If I wasn't already using ArchBang, CB would be high on my list (and still is should I ever want a Debian system again for longer, not just to check it out).
48 • Crunchbang (by Landor on 2011-04-11 19:51:01 GMT from Canada)
For those that may be interested, I plan on doing a review of Crunchbang in a week's time at my original blog http://landosplace.wordpress.com . That will be next Monday, giving me a week to get to understand Crunchbang, then review it based on that.
I should also say I've never used Crunchbang, but I have used both Openbox and Xfce extensively, and appreciate both. I'll be focusing on the Openbox version and looking at the subtle differences with the Xfce version.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
49 • Donations ad such... (by davemc on 2011-04-11 19:58:14 GMT from United States)
Hi. Please take a look at the Open Source project Calibre. Its excellect. Really. A fine candidate for the monthly donation!
50 • @44 (by Patrick on 2011-04-11 20:12:57 GMT from United States)
I agree, after having played with the live CD for a while.
Sure, there are some rough edges that will need to be smoothened, but for a x.0 release it works quite well. Some people are just against anything that's different from what they're used to. Bold moves forward are what are going to make a difference in the long run, but they aren't always appreciated at the time.
51 • Unity is bad (by Marko on 2011-04-11 20:41:15 GMT from Croatia)
It is very sad to see what is Canonical Unity doing to the Linux community. Like we need one more split up...
52 • #! 10 - my two-cents worth (by Walt on 2011-04-11 20:45:35 GMT from United States)
I was looking to simply things and speed things up on my older desktop computer and move away from Mandriva and thought I'd give #! 10 a try. I downloaded both the Xfce and the Openbox versions. I had trouble getting one of the versions (can't remember which one now). When they did boot, I could not get my wireless USB adapter working with either version.
After trying several other more streamlined distributions, I finally settled on Peppermint OS. The wireless worked out of the box (didn't even need to fool with ndiswrapper - for the first time). When I got a new laptop, Peppermint came with me. It recognized my printer right out of the box, easier than any distro I've ever used.
Good luck to #!, but I'll stick with Peppermint.
53 • RE: 54 • Mageia Fork (by saptech on 2011-04-11 21:04:50 GMT from United States)
I just recently installed Mageia Beta 1 on a HP Athlon 64 machine and must say it is running pretty good for me. I don't see any tricks coming from it. It seems the tricks are coming Mandriva, no offense, since mdv is a for-profit company!
54 • #! Another comment (by Martin on 2011-04-11 21:39:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just to reiterate what has already been said by others, I use #! Openbox, and cannot understand why the XFCE version was reviewed. I am a long term user of this distro, and find that it works as a lightweight system 'out of the box'. I have tried several times to run a lightweight Debian system, and while it is possible, it is just too time consuming to set up as I like it. Even my wife has used it without any trouble at all, and she normally uses Ubuntu, and is very computer illiterate.
55 • cowsay and fortune (by dragonmouth on 2011-04-11 22:35:13 GMT from United States)
I don't want to disable them, I want to uninstall them. I do not see why they have to be integrated with system packages and automatically installed. Those that find such inanities as a mooing cow or fortunes entertaining can install those packages after the instal the basic system is done.
56 • @28: CrunchBang redundant (by dragonmouth on 2011-04-11 22:38:26 GMT from United States)
Jesse, thank you for proving the point I made last week about the redundancy of Linux distros. How many other distros out there are redundant?
57 • Ubuntu-The New Great Satan and #37 (by pfyearwood on 2011-04-11 22:46:01 GMT from United States)
Since when has Ubuntu and Mark Shuttleworth become the Microsoft and Bill Gates of the Linux world? Is it because no one can remember when it was not at the top of the Distrowatch Hit Parade? Is it because so many developers use it as the basis for their little bit of Linux Heaven? I use it and have since 2007. It is my main system of choice.
Yes, #37, Flip23, I have botched up installing programs but I cannot blame it on Ubuntu. Just today, I decided to upgrade my 10.04 to 10.10. because the version of VLC used by Lucid no longer works. Instead of just doing a fresh install of the /root partition, i opted for an upgrade that stalled out about 2/3 of the way through the install. Had to burn and install CD and start over.
I have tried other distros and found them lacking in the conviences I like of Ubuntu. I have tried Vector 6. It is a nice compact distro but something is always messed up. What is strange is that I have used the same CD and got different errors. messages each time. I am waiting for Vector 7 to come out to try it.
I like Linux Mint 9 and have it my backup machine with Win XP and Ubu Lucid. I tried Mint Debian Edition but dropped it because on my secondary system, a PIII with 768 RAM, it would only update at an average speed of 50kbs when Ubuntu would download and update at a speed of 1.6 - 2.0 Megbps.
I am willing to try other distros and today, I put CENTOS 5.6 on my main machine. It has a nice small RAM footprint but it does not have much in the way of apps that I like to use. Flash was not in the repo but I did use the rpm version direct from Adobe. It does not offer much out of the box for mutlimedia, but I learned it is an Enterprise distro.
I find it silly that so many are upset with Conical for discontinuing the free mail order CDs. What a sense of entitlement from a private company. The first time I downloaded an ISO it was a Mandrake, or maybe Ubuntu, don't remember, using my 56k dialup. Using a download manger it took seven days off and on to spend 24 hours getting a 600+ Meg file. And it worked. I have had some formof Linux, mostly Ubuntu, on my computers ever since. Sitting right there next to Windows. Like any other tool, use what works for you.
Paul
58 • Gnome changes (by jeff on 2011-04-11 23:24:48 GMT from United States)
If you want to change desktop environments to avoid the new Gnome you do not need to go to KDE, after all Xfce is quite well developed and very usable.
59 • @ 33 (by Anonymous on 2011-04-11 23:44:59 GMT from United States)
I think Gnome devs are irresponsible.
They're not irresponsible, they just realize that the only place their product is going to be used widely is in tablets.
60 • #20 kde's journey... (by tonny on 2011-04-12 00:03:23 GMT from Indonesia)
#20: Hi Claudia, u may want to try opensuse 11.4.
61 • Crunchbang redundant? (by Ponting on 2011-04-12 00:04:23 GMT from United States)
Willextreme is/was absolutely in love with #!, and that's why he made Archbang.
Archbang is a beaut too, just like CTKArch. Both these distros says that they are not distros, but Arch Linux. Crunchbang is a nimble Openbox distribution.
Its strange to say that now the Debian 6 is around there is no need for Crunchbang. It could be said then DW is not needed as we all have Internet and we can find out anything through Google.
Anyway, whether Debian is there or not #! will be there, whatever its base!
62 • @dragonmouth (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2011-04-12 00:06:27 GMT from United States)
Uninstalling cowsay or fortune will not screw up your system. I don't have either on my Ubuntu and openSUSE systems and they run well without them. Checking the dependencies and dependents of fortune and neither are dependent on ubuntu-desktop or any other *-desktop metapackage in the repository.
63 • RHEL Derivatives (by Casual Observer on 2011-04-12 00:32:10 GMT from United States)
I wouldn't mind seeing a review of PUIAS Linux or a comparison RHEL derivatives (Oracle Linux, Scientific Linux, CentOS, PUIAS Linux, etc) in terms of availability and timeliness of updates, any distinctive differences that exist, etc.
64 • Crunchbang & Redundancy (by Kaiz on 2011-04-12 00:54:44 GMT from United States)
#56 (and Jessee): I admit to having used CB for over a year on one old boat anchor and loving it. It worked flawlessly and met my personal requirements, redundant or not. Out of the box, looked, felt, did what I needed. Problems with that?
I'm also a lifelong guitarist. Too many guitars shaped like/looking like/sounding like Fender Strats or Les Pauls? Who cares?? And WHY?
Indeed, a lot of non-techies find a particular spin or distro to their liking with little tweakage. Is that a problem... really?
I think there are far bigger fish to fry in the 'nix community. And more popular os's to compete with. -Kaiz
65 • GNOME - most popular desktop environment? (by KenP on 2011-04-12 00:55:08 GMT from United States)
That is a pretty arrogant statement! If you had this misconception, it was probably because of Ubuntu. Let's come back a year later and see if we say the same thing.
GNOME3 is going to be worse that what KDE 4.0 was. Where KDE 4.0 added new features, GNOME is going to take away everything away. I hope they leave the text there so we can *read* what's on the screen!!!
66 • missing history in #! review (by greenpossum on 2011-04-12 01:09:06 GMT from Australia)
The review failed to take into account the history of #!. When I first encountered it, it was the most suitable distro for a low RAM netbook as Ubuntu didn't fit and UNR didn't exist yet. It had what I wanted and worked out of the box. Even today, I still regard it as a prime candidate for a low RAM machine. And that is enough justification to exist.
So #! has a history before the switch to the the Debian base. It's not just Debian plus stuff. It's a nicely packaged distro for people who are not afraid to use control and function keys now and then. And Openbox is what #! runs best with, the Xfce variant came later.
67 • RE: 48 typo (by CC on 2011-04-12 01:09:33 GMT from United States)
You made a small error in your blog's URL address. Corrected is: http://landorsplace.wordpress.com
68 • good point greenpossum (by snowpine on 2011-04-12 01:15:34 GMT from United States)
Excellent point about "distro for people who are not afraid to use control and function keys now and then." I hate using the mouse/touchpad; I find it to be slower and less accurate than keyboard commands. After 3 years of using #! I can do everything I need without taking my hands off the keyboard. I have no idea how to accomplish this with, for example, Gnome 3 (if it's even possible).
69 • GNOME (by Barnabyh on 2011-04-12 01:28:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Reading will just confuse you.
One of the things I really liked about newer GNOME, the world clock / time zone and weather feature which was only added in 2.22 is gone again. Not to mention they never got around to incorporate something as simple as a panel newsticker (like knewsticker), for some ideological reason it seems with every major version bump that team has to completely level everything and start from scratch, build it up (slowly) accompanied by a lot of hype, and knock it down again --> same circle. No consistency, no predictability, no good.
70 • Apologies and such... (by KevinC on 2011-04-12 02:00:44 GMT from United States)
I must confess, I am one of those to blame for Jesse reviewing the XFCE variant of #! While I used both, I found them very similar. Whereas I was installing on a desktop quad core AMD 64 w/ 4 gigs of ram and an nivida 9800gtx--I found no real difference in performance, but that may be somewhat of an unfair comparison, given the gear. The Openbox 64 bit #! was cool, but I just can't be bothered to edit an arcane config file every time I install a new app. I work like 50+ hours a wk. and my time tinkering w/ distros is ltd. I have to use Windows all day, at work--no choice. I don't fully recall, but I seem to remember that anti-aliased fonts (sub-pixel rendering) were not available under Openbox (tho I may be thinking of LXDE). W/ LCDs this is a must for my eyes. Whats funny, is I used to prefer Windows' fonts---now after using Linux exclusively at home, I prefer Linux fonts. Recently had to work on some Vista and 7 boxes (for profit, of course) and I thought to myself, "how did I think these fonts were so nice?" Guess it's you're used to, at any given time. I suggested XFCE of #! b/c I thought it was a really original XFCE setup. Someone else (can't recall who) suggested a comparison b/ween #! and LMDE XFCE, and I thought that was a good idea.
Anyhoo, to each their own. Personally, I like the XFCE #! 64-bit, and plan to keep that as one of the 6 distros on my test system. Different strokes and all.
71 • Exton live cd of Crux (by gnomic on 2011-04-12 02:09:26 GMT from New Zealand)
The man from Sweden who makes various Linux CDs has made one from Crux, which he proudly claims is the only live CD of this distro, at any rate the only freely available for download.
See http://cruxex.exton.net/
No wifi firmware included as far as I can see, but does include vi. Booted here on a PIII 600 MHz laptop with 320 RAM.
72 • Fortunes in Mint (by Bruce Fowler on 2011-04-12 02:10:42 GMT from United States)
OTOH, if you are bored with the cow and friends, look in "/usr/share/cowsay/cows" and you will find about four dozen other critters. It is an entertaining exercise in Linux hacking to make them all spring to life. Hint: Expand the script in /usr/bin/mint-fortune.
73 • No apologies necessary... (by snowpine on 2011-04-12 02:23:32 GMT from United States)
There is nothing "wrong" with using/testing/reviewing CrunchBang Xfce, so no apologies necessary by Jesse, KevinC, or anyone else. CrunchBang has supported Xfce since 8.04 (and I've heard a rumor it's what the project creator uses on his own personal computer).
But I also think not mentioning the Openbox spin at all was a glaring omission. For a lot of Linux users, #! was their first exposure to Openbox; a unique contribution that should not be overlooked.
74 • #! Degradation Following Ubuntu Pattern? (by RO on 2011-04-12 02:40:16 GMT from United States)
For my "weak" project netbook, a Fujitsu Lifebook P1120, I found CB 9.04 made it almost usable, including its touchscreen, but not now with CB 10, which, as with so many other updated versions, seems to be losing functionality with older hardware (don't get me started on the regressions with Intel integrated 8xx/9xx GPU's ...).
Puppy seems to be keeping more of that older h/w support, but I am not comfortable with its default running as root without a password, and now it seems that it will not install in the traditional unix discrete directory/file structure that the older versions did, but crams it all into a big sfs file on a DOS partition. I have yet to see if it will work any better on the P1120's touchscreen and other PC's with the integrated Intel GPU's - having a bad feeling its Ubuntu 10.x base does not bode well in that regard.
I was hoping moving to distros based on Ubuntu 10.4 LTS would provide a stable higher functioning base to see me through a few years without major upgrades or distro switching , but it is not looking that way, and now the 9.04 updates are drying up (per the stated schedule).
This ain't progress, but regress too much of the time...
75 • Pardus (by Neal on 2011-04-12 03:15:25 GMT from United States)
Pardus 2011 KDE will heal your wounds people. Either continue to struggle with Gnome3 or whatever or come home to Pardus and experience KDE.
76 • history and opinions (by Arkanabar on 2011-04-12 03:58:18 GMT from United States)
#! was, IIRC, first spun from Ubuntu 8.04. It predates ArchBang, CTKArch, and (for those who pine for an Ubuntu base) UberBang. ArchBang was started in the interregnum between #! 9.04 and #! 10 (just over a year and a half). I like the interface, it's light, quick, easier to install than Debian (cos it's already configured in a way I like and am familiar with), and darned snappy. You should have tried the openbox environment, which doesn't have the side panel & launchers. Regard this as a request for a review, perhaps comparing it to UberBang and ArchBang.
Another alternative is probably Mint XFCE which is now a Debian Edition.
@20, I suggest MEPIS, Linux Mint KDE, Kubuntu, openSUSE, Pardus, or PCLinuxOS for you. In that order. (If it were me, I'd put Kubuntu behind openSUSE and maybe Pardus, but you're a lifelong buntu user, AFAICT.) I admit I was reminded of LMKDE and Pardus by the thread.
@74: UberBang is spun from Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. It's another one-man band, but ya just might like it.
77 • Crunchbang (by Toolz on 2011-04-12 05:55:30 GMT from United States)
The creator of Crunchbang has expressed his disapproval on the forums there - surely the first time he's been anything but smileys when acknowledging a review - and some have been less useful than this one. Is the bar raised higher for Distrowatch? A lot of these negative vibes can be construed as a back-handed compliment.
Jesse, it's easy to pick issue with any review, but please don't let the fanbois get you down!
78 • @77 and reviews (by Anony Moss on 2011-04-12 06:13:56 GMT from India)
"Jesse, it's easy to pick issue with any review, but please don't let the fanbois get you down!"
Seconded, DWW reviews have been catching some flak lately, but continue the good work, it's appreciated.
79 • GNOME 3 Pulseaudio requirement (by Sean on 2011-04-12 11:28:18 GMT from Canada)
KDE4 marked the end of my interest in KDE, and now GNOME3 demands Pulseaudio, which has always caused problems for me and the applications I use. Couple these with Nouveau which is now installed by default with all of my favorite distros, is still only half working, and is quite difficult to remove/replace, and I find myself wondering if all this work is really worth it. Feels like distro maintainers are doing their best to make it as hard as possible to do what the big proprietary OS can. If you buy a "Linux compatible" disc off a store shelf, it may have no sound thanks to Pulse, or be unable to display accelerated 3D graphics. This feels like moving backwards and sabotaging adoption. I also endorse "Libre" software, but if it can't do the job required, then what option is there but to run a proprietary solution?
80 • @Brandon Sniadajewski (by dragonmouth on 2011-04-12 11:29:58 GMT from United States)
When attempting to remove "cowsay" and/or "fortune" from Mint, PeppermintOS and Ubuntu, Synaptic tells me that mint-system, peppermint-system and ubuntu-minimal respectively will be also removed. I would say that removal of those packages will incapacitate the system. Of course Synaptic could be lying, which would point to another problem. However, I have never had Synaptic report erroneous dependencies.
BTW - just as a test I did tell Synaptic to proceed with the uninstall from one of the distros. At this point I do not recall which one. Upon a re-boot the distro would no longer work.
81 • GPL (by Yuri Gagarin on 2011-04-12 11:41:58 GMT from Romania)
Crunchbang does not -- and never had -- complied with the GPL, in that it doesn't offer in any way the SOURCE PACKAGES for the Crunchbang-specific binary packages!
The binary packages are here:
http://packages.crunchbanglinux.org/statler/pool/main/
The source packages are NOWHERE.
82 • RE:80 How did you get it? What about choice? (by OSUnity on 2011-04-12 12:25:17 GMT from United States)
I have never seen cowsay or fortune in my Ubuntu terminal all the years I've used it. So it doesn't seem that I have your problem, whatever that may be. I have seen it in Mint and other distros and no problems were caused by it. It didn't cause the systems to freeze up, it didn't ruin any hardware or destroy any applications that I know of. If it bugs you so much use something else and get on with your life. It seems the more choice people are giving the LESS they appreciate it. I really can't understand all the crying and complaining by people who think they know better than the developers and project leads on what is good for those projects. The anger and disrespect seen here is more then any you will see in the propitiatory world. We are not talking about opinions but about pure hate and or dislike of a way of doing things and who does them. They cry "don't mess with my distro, I like it the way it is". It's not YOUR distro unless you developed it and anyway you do have the CHOICE to change it or to use something else. Try to appreciate having that choice.
83 • Re: 20 (by Antony on 2011-04-12 12:35:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi,
You say you are looking for the "best distro with KDE".
Well, it is probably easier to just answer that for someone wishing to try KDE, I can't think of a better introduction than Pardus 2011.
Antony.
84 • Crunchbang Statler is based on Debian Testing, not Squeeze (by Timothy Matias on 2011-04-12 13:08:58 GMT from United States)
@Jesse Smith To say that Crunchbang is based on the stable Debian Squeeze is a misnomer; at the time of its release, yes their packages were equivalent to that of the Squeeze repository, but Crunchbang is based on testing (which *was* Squeeze, but is now currently *wheezy*). While Debian testing isn't unstable enough to be considered "sid" (named for the Toy story of the same name for how 'mentally' unstable it tends to be), it's definitely not stable, as stability requires a lot of testing, a changes are made to the testing branch relatively frequently, resulting in a fair amount of breakage. However, more experienced users of Linux with a taste for adventure should love the cutting-edge (and somewhat "bleeding-edge" experience Crunchbang has to offer.
85 • Statler is Stable (by snowpine on 2011-04-12 13:48:56 GMT from United States)
To clear up any misconceptions, CrunchBang Statler is (and always will be) based on Debian Stable/Squeeze. You can probably guess what the future Wheezy-based release will be named...
The somewhat alarming "CrunchBang Disclaimer" is an example of Corenominal's sense of humor, nothing to be worried about!
A minority of users on the #! forums are experimenting with Testing and/or Unstable, with a few hiccups along the way (as would be expected). The #! community is pretty adventurous.
86 • Re: 80 (by Eric Chapman on 2011-04-12 14:01:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Synaptic tells me that mint-system, peppermint-system and ubuntu-minimal respectively will be also removed. I would say that removal of those packages will incapacitate the system."
No it won't. Those are metapackages, i.e. packages containing no code at all, but just a list of dependencies. Their purpose is to simplify the installation of a related set of packages. After installation they can safely be removed without affecting the system in any way.
87 • GNOME 3 Arch (by bwd2 on 2011-04-12 15:25:25 GMT from United States)
So I've been using GNOME 3 for a couple days now from the Arch gnome-unstable/testing repository. Before moving to GNOME 3, I'd favored Xfce 4.8.
I really like GNOME 3, so far, though there are a couple irritating aspects:
* aesthetically the menubars are redundant and unnecessarily huge--I'd like to see menubars incorporated into the top-menu [where 'activities et. al appears] a la OS-X (gasp!) because it utilizes screen space better.
* I cant figure out what the [workspace?] switcher on the right-side of the activites dropscreen is supposed to do, or how it could be useful,
* the Shell was advertised as being highly customizable--but so far the only real way to customize is still gconf-editor (and dconf-editor).
Aside from that, I seem to have taken to the 'Activities' swapper fairly quickly, and actually feel that it has increased my productivity (perhaps even _because_ it is aesthetically and spacially pleasing).
Currently PulseAudio is working just fine on my Arch/GNOME3 system--so I'm feeling pretty happy about the switch.
I think GNOME is smart for developing an environment that works on desktops, tablets, and possibly other embedded systems (smartphones?)--this is where Linux can expand and really win-over disgruntled proprietary and DRM users; which has always been the appeal, and strength of GNOME. Of course If you don't like it, you don't have to use it--and that's the great thing about our community [Sorry Landor, I still think Linux _is_ about choice].
I guess I just want to argue to give GNOME 3 a chance before panning it outright. I was pretty skeptical at
88 • GNOME 3 Arch Cont'd (by bwd2 on 2011-04-12 15:28:20 GMT from United States)
...first.
89 • RE: 88 (by Landor on 2011-04-12 15:45:14 GMT from Canada)
You're allowed to think whatever you choose to. That doesn't make it right though. When you take away someone's right of choice for one thing, that means it's no longer about choice. It doesn't matter if the thing that removed the choice has other choices available for other things, it's arbitrarily removed a person's choice without any thought to that person's choice. Thus, choice no longer exists, no matter what else may exist.
When this community stops making choice available, that's the time that everyone should take a stand. Sadly though, it's inhabited by a great number of the kiddie proprietary whiners who don't care one way or another about real freedoms or choice, not unless the ones they 'perceive' to have are stepped on of course.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
90 • @87 gnome 3 (by subg on 2011-04-12 17:43:26 GMT from United States)
Gnome 3 is definitely different, but worth using a while longer before making a decision. Xfce is a good alternative, if gnome doesn't mature quickly.
It is all about choice, despite Landor's bitterness.
91 • @89 Choice (by Patrick on 2011-04-12 18:19:14 GMT from United States)
I think my choices are increasing, if anything. It used to be that most desktops were pretty uniform. I usually used GNOME, but KDE, Xfce, Lxde, etc all operated in pretty much the same way. Now we're starting to see some really different ways of doing things. KDE4 made a small step, now GNOME is taking it a step further and Unity is providing a new choice too. If I don't like it, I can still use a more standard desktop like Xfce or Lxde. But if I am interested in going beyond the standard desktop, now I have a choice that didn't exist before.
Why do you even throw in anything about "real freedoms" when it has nothing to do with the subject? All the desktops that are discussed are FOSS and respect your freedoms. Both OpenOffice and LibreOffice are FOSS. If you like the status quo and want to keep using whatever you are using, take the source and compile it. You are in no way limited to what your distro provides you by default. Start a project to keep developing the projects you want to stay up to date. No freedom has been taken away from you, just because the original developers decided to take a different route than you would have liked.
"""...whiners who don't care one way or another about real freedoms or choice, not unless the ones they 'perceive' to have are stepped on of course."""
I suggest you seriously consider how this statement applies to yourself. You seem to think that if developers make a change that you don't like, they are attacking your freedom. Have you ever considered THEIR freedom to do whatever they please with their code?
92 • RE: 91 (by Landor on 2011-04-12 18:49:00 GMT from Canada)
Comment deleted (offensive).
93 • Crunch (by Jesse on 2011-04-12 20:52:20 GMT from Canada)
>> "But I also think not mentioning the Openbox spin at all was a glaring omission."
I mentioned the availability of the Openbox edition in the opening paragraph of the review.
>> "@Jesse Smith To say that Crunchbang is based on the stable Debian Squeeze is a misnomer; at the time of its release, yes their packages were equivalent to that of the Squeeze repository, but Crunchbang is based on testing (which *was* Squeeze, but is now currently *wheezy*)"
I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's not accurate. Statler continues to pull from the Squeeze (aka Stable) repository. It does not pull from Testing.
>> "Jesse, it's easy to pick issue with any review, but please don't let the fanbois get you down!
Seconded, DWW reviews have been catching some flak lately, but continue the good work, it's appreciated."
Thank you.
94 • @92 (by hhh on 2011-04-12 21:47:51 GMT from United States)
"Debian 'removed' OpenOffice.org from their repositories. They completely took away a choice."
What the hell are you talking about?...
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/openoffice.org
95 • #94 (by anticapitalista on 2011-04-12 21:54:38 GMT from Greece)
Wheezt, however .. (For better or worse IMO for better)
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/openoffice.org
96 • Re: 89 -> 92 (by Antony on 2011-04-12 22:06:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
@89
"When this community stops making choice available, that's the time that everyone should take a stand"
Go and stand on your own - who is this 'we', that should take a stand? And anyway, wouldn't it be too late by then, when choice is no longer available?
Rights, rights, rights. I assume you would say that there should be equal rights for all? What about the rights of people who choose to use proprietary stuff, or 'kiddie distros' etc?
@91
"I suggest you seriously consider how this statement applies to yourself. You seem to think that if developers make a change that you don't like, they are attacking your freedom. Have you ever considered THEIR freedom to do whatever they please with their code?"
My thoughts exactly.
@92
"The problem here is, you're so bent, and so linear...."
Erm. that is just bizarre!
You routinely sneer and mock, and seem to relish confrontation. You have a chip on your shoulder. On and on about rights and freedoms, yet you display very little regard for your fellows. You demand flexibility from others while you come across as being extremely rigid.
"One day instead of updating your computer, you should update your grey matter."
Yet another example of your sense of freedom and rights, where you repeatedly emphasise your intellectual or moral superiority over others?
Actually, I think that you have a corrupt notion of freedom and rights. It's people like you who would seek to _impose_ 'freedoms' upon the masses (who, after all, are too thick and ignorant etc.)
I imagine my comment might be deleted. I just want to say that Landors "bitterness" (@ 92) will soon result in my _choosing_ not to want to come here any more.
Yours Disgustedly,
Antony.
97 • Very secure OS a.o. Linux-based. (by Jan on 2011-04-12 22:08:03 GMT from Netherlands)
Possibly of interest?
A new very secure OS, based a.o. on Linux.
http://qubes-os.org/Home.html
98 • RE: 94/95 (by Landor on 2011-04-12 22:08:07 GMT from Canada)
Correct anti, as well as unstable, etc. of course. It's also been stated unofficially that stable will have OpenOffice removed and a forced upgrade to LibreOffice. It doesn't actually matter if it happens or not. They are indeed forcing a choice when there shouldn't be one forced. At the very worst there's no licensing issues, or the like keeping OpenOffice from being an alternative for those that want it.. This is the same case with Fedora. It's an arbitrary decision that I personally won't support.
In Debian's case I'd even hazard a guess that what they are doing in Testing and Unstable(?) is illegal. OpenOffice is a registered trademark and they're using the OpenOffice trademarked name for a package to point to LibreOffice. That has to be illegal, especially given that it's a rival product.
I was using Debain Stable, and once I found out they took away one of my most important freedoms, choice, I started taking steps to exercise that freedom on my own by choosing to go back to Gentoo. A distribution that understands choice and have both in the portage tree.
Keep your sitck on the ice...
Landor
99 • Correction to my previous (96) (by Antony on 2011-04-12 22:16:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
My last line should have shown @90, not @92.
100 • Freedom (by doesn't matter on 2011-04-12 22:18:09 GMT from United States)
I detest kiddie distros almost as much as Landor, but the Debian team definitely got this part right:
"Social Contract" with the Free Software Community
1. Debian will remain 100% free
We provide the guidelines that we use to determine if a work is "free" in the document entitled "The Debian Free Software Guidelines". We promise that the Debian system and all its components will be free according to these guidelines. We will support people who create or use both free and non-free works on Debian. We will never make the system require the use of a non-free component.
Use non-free if you choose. Less is better, zero would be ideal.
101 • I stand corrected! (by snowpine on 2011-04-12 22:54:55 GMT from United States)
I skimmed the first paragraph and missed the mention of openbox. Criticism retracted, sorry!
102 • Re: 98 (by Antony on 2011-04-12 23:01:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
"......Gentoo. A distribution that understands choice and have both in the portage tree."
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359861
"..........And yes: I'll be adding a warning to app-office/openoffice soon that the
package is deprecated and also yes afterwards the plan is to hard mask the
package and remove it from the tree."
103 • RE: 103 (by Landor on 2011-04-12 23:31:11 GMT from Canada)
I should've also added, and will so now, the maintainer (I believe) stated that they were 'asking' the user-base to switch. 'Asking'. What a novel idea, no? Quite a bit different than arbitrarily taking their user-base's choice away from them by telling them flat out what they can and cannot choose to use, after years of using that piece of software.
BTW, I've actually become aware that others believe that what Debian is doing with the naming of the packages is illegal too. I wonder if they're even aware of it.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
104 • RE: 102 (by Landor on 2011-04-12 23:34:52 GMT from Canada)
See, and people think Ladislav never deletes my posts.
That said, yet again I'll say, you're wrong and obviously couldn't read what you yourself linked to.
The maintainer I believe states that the -bin (binary) will be staying for those who want / need it.
Gentoo is indeed respecting its user-base's choice, where two major distriubtions, as well as Ubuntu will be the same since it's based on one, are not respecting their user-base's right to choice.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
105 • WoW! (by doesn't matter on 2011-04-12 23:45:56 GMT from United States)
"Wow!"
(Many) Debian Wheezy and Sid users are also capable of building from source. From what I've read, Oracle didn't treat the Sun step-children very well after the takeover, but I don't have a dog in that fight- so I'm not overly concerned. At any rate, the choice is still there. Build from source or eat from the trough in front of you. All you have to do is make the decision.
106 • Download directly O.O. (by RollMeAway on 2011-04-13 01:10:59 GMT from United States)
Source with SDK or .deb and .rpm all readily available for download.
You don't need a distribution to "provide" the packages for you.
http://download.openoffice.org/other.html#tested-full
Same goes for firefox, thunderbird and many other open source application.
107 • Who's the hyprocrite? (by doesn't matter on 2011-04-13 01:12:37 GMT from United States)
I agree with your sentiments all too often... I also am willing to blast a "friend" when they're wrong and praise an "enemy" when they're right. For a self-proclaimed Gentoo god, I find your position on rolling your own (ie making a decision for yourself) versus being spoonfed packages by ANY distro off-kilter. You say you have no choice, but you do. If you know how to build from source then no one dictates what packages you use on your system. Like I said before, I detest the automagic proprietary driver/codec/plugin-filled crap distros liked peppernoob and their ilk dish out. You should know better. If you don't like it, build it. You could always go BLFS if you really want to make a point to yourself.
Keep your eye on the ball.
108 • Puppy Linux (by imnotrich on 2011-04-13 01:27:59 GMT from Mexico)
The last true Puppy was 4.3.1, and it was a work of genius. I highly recommend this version.
The 5 series of puppies (Lucid and Wary) are based on Ubuntu binaries. So #32 don't take offense if distrowatch pays little attention to a buggy Ubuntu respin. While it is cool that you can download programs from the Ubuntu repos (as lack of software packages and repos has always been a problem with earlier Pup versions) that ability to use Ubuntu repos brings with it a new set of challenges.
As for the other post speculating about video problems with Puppy, I can tell you from first hand experience that both Ubuntu and the related Puppy versions suffer many of the same video bugs/problems. Go back to version 4.3.1 if you can
109 • Making it clear (by Landor on 2011-04-13 01:29:46 GMT from Canada)
This has nothing to do with what anyone is able to do or not, and this is what amazes me by all the comments.
It's about the simple fact that they took away a right. If Debian took everything away from their users except for a Libre Kernel and said that's all they're distributing the community would be in outrage from them doing it.
It's a ridiculous example, but the exact same thing none the less. I don't care how much I can compile. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the licensing and such for OpenOffice, yet it was 'fully' removed from all of their repositories except for Debian Stable. Which that might even be switched out, depending on if you believe rumour or not.
Nobody seems to get that a choice was aribtrarily made. But it's supposed to be all about choice, right? Debian is supposed to be a community distribution. I don't ever recall anyone voting on the removal of OpenOffice. Also too, I don't care how long they've worked on OpenOffice previously, LibreOffice and The Document Project are untested in their current guise in my opinion. That's just one more reason to keep something around that's tried and true.
As I said, it's nothing about compiling. It's about choice, and it being taken away. No different than Ubuntu's doing with Unity, buttons, the media player, etc. There really is no choice, unless you 'force' the choices for yourself only.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
110 • More WoW (by doesn't matter on 2011-04-13 02:00:06 GMT from United States)
Well, all I have learned from this whole exchange is this: Even if you win in the Special Olympics, you're still retarded.
I'm not going to bother arguing about "choice" any longer. Your arguments are disingenuous at best.
An example of Landor-Speak... "I feel disenfranchised because I run openbox and Debian doesn't provide volumeicon for me to use in my tint2 tray. My freedom is being threatened. I have no choice in resource-burning widgets."
Get real. Build the package if you want the stupid panel widget and install it. Big deal.
Use the force, Luke.
111 • Re UberBang for #! Degradation Following Ubuntu Pattern? (by RO on 2011-04-13 02:51:13 GMT from United States)
@76: Thanks for the pointer to UberBang, however, the creator's blog seems to indicate a lot of unresolved issues with it: http://dasublogbyprashanth.blogspot.com/2010/12/introducing-uberbang-1004.html
It looks to be more or less an experiment on his part with a prominent warning about the Crunch! and Bang! risks.
BTW, great blog, Arkanabar! It looks very compatible with my thinking, although I think it might be a wee bit deficient in references to GK Chesterton and Distributism ;-)
112 • I though WoW was "World of Warcraft" (by KevinC on 2011-04-13 03:34:07 GMT from United States)
On that point I digress. I, for one, add my support to Jesse's reviews...tho I don't always agree (#! being point in case) I still think they're decent. DW is still the premiere Linux site, IMHO, and apparently Ladislav agrees or he still wouldn't still be here would he?
@ Landor, while I tend to agree and disagree w/ you about equally, if you dislike this site so much, then just turn it off. Personally, it seems more like you're getting a wee bit obsessed w/ "Gee, look at me, I'm a rebel." No one is forcing you to read the reviews or post here. Or did I forget the cardinal rule: the internets are serious business. :>p
Go back to posts, such as tomato and the Asus RT-N16 and they will come. Or dismiss me as "sheeple" ---a true dagger to the heart. Just remember we're all answering to some shepherd...& that includes you as well.
113 • RE: 112 (by Landor on 2011-04-13 04:07:36 GMT from Canada)
How did this come out to be about DistroWatch now? I don't want to be rude, and Ladislav may end up deleting another one of my posts while others continue to be rude and theirs left. Not saying yours is, of course. But, how could you even come up with that? Seriously?
I actually admire this site. I tend to respect Ladislav on many fronts, and out of any news site, I actually find I enjoy the news items that he finds. They're pretty well on par with what I'm interested in (for the most part), and more often than not, information I haven't come across myself. To be honest too, I've actually stopped reading any "news" items on-line because they're usually nothing but crap written by people with hyperbole as an intention. Again, what Ladislav finds doesn't fit that at all. He's a professional, that's why.
On a side note, some of the people I do enjoy reading I read only their technical articles. Byfield (whom I didn't like at one time, but we have a lot of the same opinions it seems). Brockmeier (another person I didn't like much, but his technical skills are without question). Carla Schroeder, a true star in this community and I predict she'll continually become more important within this community as time passes. There's a few more, but it's a small list that actually impresses me. Ladislav is on it. Want to learn how to write for this community, or just learn a whole lot more in general? Go read every post you can find of Ladislav's, Byfield's, and Brockmeier's. You'll learn two-fold definitely.
The Rebel comment made me bust out laughing, seriously. But, to comment. I don't read the reviews normally, and have stated that many a time. I didn't even discuss the review this week. The only thing I stated was I was going to review it come Monday, and that's still the case. So, you just showed me another example of people just, pulling stuff out of thin air and commenting on it. Just to make it even clearer, DistroWatch Weekly, the reviews, or even the question and answer section, or only but a part of it. If you haven't noticed, there's another name there at the end, it's Ladislav Bodnar. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
114 • RE: 113 Correction (by Landor on 2011-04-13 04:37:21 GMT from Canada)
The last part should read:
"Just to make it clearer, for DistroWatch Weekly, the reviews, or even the question and answer section are only but a small part of it. If you haven't noticed, there's another name there at the end, It's Ladislav Bodnar. :)"
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
115 • Landorisms (by allthosewhispers on 2011-04-13 04:53:32 GMT from United States)
I also must voice my criticisms.
The alien overlords at Debian are again going to take away another right, another freedom, and turn us over to the fascists:
There are plans to discontinue XFCE 4.6 repository distribution and replace it with 4.8.
I thought Debian was a "community" distro? I didn't vote on this replacement. 4.6 still works perfectly fine, and there are no licensing reasons why at least the bins should't be hosted. Now, I'm Compiler Jesus, but actually compiling my own packages, as I do with the rest of my OS, is somehow a right taken away by the jackboots, although I haven't actually figured out how yet.
You'll see, when the Debian Maintainers come and drag you out of your homes on the Night of the Long Kernel, you should have listened to me, sheep. But no, I'll continue to be a misnunderstood pariah. When your children have no food, no water, because a package decision has taken place, you'll crawl back to my comments, and ask me to save you. But I'll shout "NO", because Ooo got removed by keywording when I did an emerge world.
116 • Audible.com compatibility with linux (by victor jones on 2011-04-13 05:06:42 GMT from United States)
Audible says "At this time Audible is not compatible with the Linux operating system. Audible is actively pursuing compability with Linux in all versions by pursuing support from the open source community that develops this platform."
I joined Audible in 2002 and saw that exact message shortly after and it has not changed to this date today.
Audiible is one of the big reasons I have heard people say they will not switch to linux. There are already ways to take out the protections and turn the audio books to mp3 files, but I have a very large library on their site and need (as do many other people) for it to just work. Just work is what Ubuntu is all about. If you do not think it is serious just do a Google search for "Audible linux" and you will come out with a different frame of mind.
Could someone please contact them and tell them how much money they are losing? In the process please offer to work with them to make Audible compatible with the Linux operating system. Ubuntu is the largest and should have a little bit of pull in whatever negotiations are needed. It would help if the other OS's would get on the wagon for the long haul.
117 • RE: 116 (by Landor on 2011-04-13 05:27:41 GMT from Canada)
If you're talking about downloading the books and reading them on some device that's able to play them then from what I understand WINE works perfectly.
If you're talking about a player within Linux, .aa is a proprietary codec and that's Audible's problem, not FLOSS' . So, they're not telling you the truth. If they open up their codec I wouldn't doubt that it would immediately get incorporated in many players, if not all of the ones still supported.
You're a paying customer, tell them you want to be supported.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
118 • RE:97 QubesOS Looks very interesting. (by Eddie on 2011-04-13 11:56:48 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the link to this very interesting project. I love the concept of security in this OS. This could give the best of both worlds. This will be my next download for testing.
Eddie
119 • QubesOS (by samuel on 2011-04-13 15:50:00 GMT from Italy)
It seems to have something truly new to offer. Hope for DWW will review it soon. But for now it looks too choosy on kind of hardware so I will not be trying it soon.
120 • @109, 103 (by Patrick on 2011-04-13 16:11:15 GMT from United States)
I did see your personal attack before it was deleted, but your opinion will not stop me from continuing to post here. Let's hope we can do it in a civilized manner though.
"""This has nothing to do with what anyone is able to do or not, and this is what amazes me by all the comments. It's about the simple fact that they took away a right."""
Very simple question: explain where this "right" comes from. Who bestowed it upon you?
You're always referring to the 4 software freedoms and the FSF (whom you erroneously assume I hate because I have one minor disagreement with their policy). The problem is that none of these freedoms convey on you the right to demand what you think you can demand from developers. Nothing is said about developers or distributions needing to provide one software package or another. Nothing is said about when it is ethical or not to fork a project (while you seem to imply LibreOffice did something bad by exercising their 4 freedoms!). Nothing is said about developers needing to continue to support a software package for the rest of their lives. They can change it or completely drop it at any time they like. Still, as a user, the 4 freedoms protect you against all these situations by one simple reason: you have the source code available. It provides a brilliantly simple solution to all these problems, and allows you to run the software you want to run, no matter what the developer decides to do.
However, you seem to equate this freedom with entitlement to demand stuff from developers. Debian has been providing you with a convenient package for OpenOffice.org. Someone has been maintaining this package, doing you a huge favor. It must be a lot of work maintaining a package of this size. Now, they decide, whatever the reasons, that they feel LibreOffice is really the "substance" of the project, of what they have been providing to their users. They decide that due to similarity, or not enough resources to maintain two similar packages, or whatever, that they will provide only LibreOffice and not OpenOffice.org in their repositories. That is THEIR decision. They were doing you a favor, remember? Now they are doing everyone a favor who would like a convenient way to install LibreOffice instead. They are by no means preventing you from installing OpenOffice, if that's what you like. They have just stopped doing you the favor of providing it on their servers, and whatever the reasons they have for that, good or bad, it is THEIR right to do that. Would it be nice if they provided both? Sure. Can they do it? I am in no position to judge that and neither are you. Did they take away your right to run OpenOffice.org? Not at all.
"""the maintainer (I believe) stated that they were 'asking' the user-base to switch. 'Asking'. What a novel idea, no? Quite a bit different than arbitrarily taking their user-base's choice away from them by telling them flat out what they can and cannot choose to use, after years of using that piece of software."""
I can't believe you got stuck on that word "asking" as if that makes any difference as to what is really happening. Here is a direct quote from http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359861:
"""
*) We are going to deprecate app-office/openoffice and ask users to move to
app-office/libreoffice
"""
They are not asking you or anyone else whether it is a good idea to move to LibreOffice. They "are going to deprecate" OpenOffice.org and "ask users to move"! The decision is made.
"""
*) That's because app-office/libreoffice really is the contender to the current
app-office/openoffice in the tree, we didn't have a vanilla OOo build for
years.
"""
Again, they seem to agree with most distros that the "substance" of OpenOffice.org has now moved to LibreOffice.
"""
*) app-office/openoffice-bin is going to stay and deliver a vanilla OOo
directly from the Oracle binaries for those who want / need it.
"""
A binary package directly from Oracle is what you'll get in Gentoo, and is exactly the same thing as you CAN USE in Debian. There is no difference how the two projects are dealing with this change. So either you moved away from Debian for no good reason, or it is time for you to abandon Gentoo also.
121 • To make things even clearer? (by Antony on 2011-04-13 16:24:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
Landor,
104
"That said, yet again I'll say, you're wrong and obviously couldn't read what you yourself linked to."
"The maintainer I believe states that the -bin (binary) will be staying for those who want / need it."
Pardon, do you mean couldn't or didn't? Of course I read it (I include below the summary from the link), as you can see it would have been difficult for me not to have read about the binary (yes, I know what a binary is thanks).
When I (102) quoted the Gentoo link I was specifically addressing your statement in 98: "...and have both in the portage tree." Your mention of a binary is simply an effort to misdirect, as it must be plain that I was responding to your specific wording, i,e: "both" and "tree". Hope that clears that up.
109
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with the licensing and such for OpenOffice, yet it was 'fully' removed from all of their repositories except for Debian Stable. Which that might even be switched out, depending on if you believe rumour or not."
98
"It's also been stated unofficially that stable will have OpenOffice removed and a forced upgrade to LibreOffice. It doesn't actually matter if it happens or not."
"..rumour..stated unofficially..doesn't actually matter if it happens or not." Well, that's crystal-clear then.
29
"For my own reasons I don't like LibreOffice. Actually, it has nothing to do with the suite itself, but more in the way the team behaved.
So, theoretically you might have used LibreOffice - if given the 'choice'?
109
"LibreOffice and The Document Project are untested in their current guise in my opinion."
Perhaps not, then.
-------------
SUMMARY for: Deprecate app-office/openoffice and move people to app-office/libreoffice
*) We are going to deprecate app-office/openoffice and ask users to move to
app-office/libreoffice
*) That's because app-office/libreoffice really is the contender to the current
app-office/openoffice in the tree, we didn't have a vanilla OOo build for
years.
*) app-office/openoffice-bin is going to stay and deliver a vanilla OOo
directly from the Oracle binaries for those who want / need it.
And yes: I'll be adding a warning to app-office/openoffice soon that the
package is deprecated and also yes afterwards the plan is to hard mask the
package and remove it from the tree.
Why hasn't this been done earlier? Simple: Before we can tell anyone to move
over to app-office/libreoffice we actually had to stabilize it, otherwise users
would be getting a bogus advice ;-)
Stabilization has just finished now (on x86 and amd64), so we are now good in
this respect, what is still missing is keywording libreoffice for ppc and
sparc.
122 • Sorry for the formatting in 121 (by Antony on 2011-04-13 16:30:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
......I pasted from an external editor. Will be more careful in future.
123 • Even more sorry (by Antony on 2011-04-13 16:39:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
....that I posted my 121 comment, then to see 120.
Now I am even more embarrassed with my effort :(
124 • More fun with Debian Squeeze slug bug (by imnotrich on 2011-04-13 16:51:06 GMT from Mexico)
In a previous post I mentioned that Skype for Linux 2.1.0.81 in Squeeze didn't recognize webcams and cited a fix that involved forcing Skype and Squeeze to use a previous version of the UVC driver.
Turns out this is only a partial fix. If your webcam is not plugged in when you start Skype with that script, Skype will still not recognize your webcam. You've got to plug the webcam in before starting Skype. BUG!
Streamtuner - still looks for xmms, a player that hasn't been in the repos for years. The user must change settings and point Streamtuner to whatever player you have installed. Most of the tabs and presets do not work. And the "search" function causes Streamtuner to crash out. BUG!
Tunapie - still can't connect to the Shoutcast server, this is an issue that's been known for at least two years now. If you are upgrading from a previous Tunapie install and bring your favorites list with you, and those favorites are still valid links, Tunapie will be able to play them. But forget about getting Shoutcast updates or browsing available stations. BUG!
If you're a fan of streaming radio stations, what are you to do? Well, you could try (gasp!) Radiosure, a windows program. Works great in Wine 1.0.1 and has better audio quality than audacious, however there's a regression with Wine 1.2 that causes audio to be unacceptably choppy. BUG!
You could also try web pages such as radiotime.com and shoutcast.com, get your streams through your browser.
Again, insert standard disclaimer. I recognize some of these BUGS I have exposed are only partially the fault of Debian. But I ask...what's the point of including packages in the repos that have not been tested with Squeeze?
And...why are certain packages omitted from the repos? If it's about choice, those choices should be available...AND they should "just work." There's no point in releasing a new version of any distro until all the packages are updated and tested IMHO.
125 • LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org (by Fred Nelson on 2011-04-13 20:49:39 GMT from United States)
My impression from reading various distros' mailing-lists and such is that they're including only LibreOffice and not OpenOffice.org for manpower reasons, not ideological ones. They only want to spend the energy to maintain one package/ebuild/whatever, and in their opinion, LibreOffice wins on technical merits. Considering the copyright-assignment problem (OO.o will only accept patches if their copyright is assigned to Oracle, whereas LibreOffice will take them from anywhere, both inside and outside of Oracle), LibreOffice should be a strict superset of OpenOffice.org, and thus it is hard to fault them for choosing LibreOffice if they're going to only maintain one of the two no matter what.
As you say, though, there's no license issue or anything with OpenOffice.org, so I'm sure if you wanted to step in and package it for Debian, not only would they not stop you, they'd probably gladly give you maintainership. It probably wouldn't even be a huge delta from the current LibreOffice packaging. I wouldn't want to do the work myself, though, just to have another nearly identical office suite in the repository.
126 • CentOS 6 should shut down (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2011-04-13 21:37:54 GMT from United States)
"Now would be a good time for the top beneficiaries of the CentOS project to roll up their sleeves and put some serious time into making it better."
Uh, no - the answer is for CentOS to shut down if they are not financially viable. Scientific Linux doesn't seem to have any problem keeping up with Red Hat - in fact, they *enhance* RHEL, unlike CentOS that merely copies.
127 • Underwhelmed by GNOME 3 (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2011-04-13 21:43:14 GMT from United States)
I installed GNOME 3 and ... well ... it's underwhelming. I'm biased - I run the heavily-customized openSUSE variant of GNOME 2.32. But even so, I just don't see how GNOME 3 improves my workflow. The good thing about it, though, is that it's nowhere near as bizarre / distracting as KDE 4. ;-)
128 • RE: 126 (by Landor on 2011-04-14 05:27:25 GMT from Canada)
When they had the problem with leadership not long ago I said that knew a number of people deploying it that were losing respect for it as a project, some even dropped it like a hot potato. People from the enterprise sector.
A large part of their concern was simply how dramatic, and unprofessional the whole team acted in response to the leader going absent for so long. This I believe was the actual start of a wave of drama that we saw in this community for quite some time, sadly.
The other aspect of it was simply that although it was still the same team, the people didn't have a lot of faith in the new setup, and if things would continue. I personally believe we're seeing the end result of that whole thing now.
What else could it be? Really? They worked well together and were always well in advance of any other RHEL derivative. The only common denominator here is that whole issue, and the new leadership. I could be wrong, but I've yet to seen anything else proposed that is more viable.
I also have similar thoughts on The Document Project, and LibreOffice. It's far from a cohesive unit. They haven't been together long, and although they may be professionals in their own right, they're now totally in charge of a project. It takes time to see if they'll make it or break it.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
129 • LibreOffice (by KimTjik on 2011-04-14 16:59:16 GMT from Sweden)
We have a paradox here, not necessarily voiced by the same individuals. For years many were disappointed at the state of OpenOffice and its leadership. Few expected Oracle to be the party that sparked the movement, despite not playing the good role in the drama. LibreOffice has surprised many, me included, in that it was able to not only work through such a big code base, but also be able to add extra fuel in immediate developments ahead. In LibreOffice we see a obvious direction, while we still don't really know about Oracle's OpenOffice plans. LibreOffice gave us a choice.
Another common complaint about the Linux ecosystem, is that it's too distracted by several projects doing the same thing. That's not a real problem as long as alternatives are manageable by some few. Is it therefore worth the extra effort to have both OpenOffice and LibreOffice available in the main repositories? We have more choices but the same workforce. Why not give LibreOffice extra momentum for improvement instead of putting effort into pleasing an unpredictable player, Oracle? Oracle supports Linux and relatives/friends better in other fields of computing, hence no need to be nostalgic about OpenOffice and its rightful place in history (which in any case wasn't an achievement of Oracle).
Sure, a new organisation, especially a not tied by stock holders, might experience more commotion (not that companies doesn't experience turmoil, but there's always a restraining influence by nervous investors, sometimes for good and sometimes holding innovation back). We have more than 10 years of OpenOffice, so why not put our bets on a at the moment more vivid project? Is moderation the only virtue? In a sense it's not so much about choice, but strategy.
130 • RE: 129 (by Landor on 2011-04-14 21:48:38 GMT from Canada)
Nostalgic? Historic? That's past tense. What on earth would make you even come up with something like that? Seriously.
People say that Linux Kernel Based Operating Systems hold anywhere from 4-15 percent of the desktop market share. Do you honestly believe that with the massive amount of Windows users that don't know crap about LibreOffice, nor care, and have it installed as an alternative would be outweighed by our community? Seriously? Just because a number of distributions in our community are running around, genuflecting for LibreOffice, that doesn't mean anything with the sheer amount of users of Windows. I actually hate referencing Windows but in this case it actually had to be done, and it's factual.
I'm sorry, but your premise is absurd. It's even quite possible that LibreOffice could only become a niche suite just for the FLOSS community.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
131 • Debian vs RPM (by Bob on 2011-04-14 23:56:19 GMT from United States)
Something I have wondered about. It seems to me that the Intel based comps I have used over the last 6 - 7 years run better/smoother on Debian based OS's and that RPM type OS's make the comp run harder/rougher.
Any ideas from anyone on why this may be?
132 • RE 130 (by KimTjik on 2011-04-15 05:35:38 GMT from Sweden)
What's the big deal if Windows users to a larger extent use OpenOffice instead of LibreOffice? Do you mean that numbers automatically translates into progress and development? As long as neither OpenOffice or LibreOffice by purpose break standard formats there's no reason to be concerned. As it looks now it's only a matter of time before OpenOffice will integrate features developed by the LibreOffice team.
Furthermore if LibreOffice becomes a niche, but in the same time gets things rolling, why make so much fuzz about whether you have to install it from OpenOffice site or from repository?
133 • RE: 132 (by Landor on 2011-04-15 10:30:34 GMT from Canada)
What's the big deal? The big deal is that you alluded to OpenOffice.org being 'nostalgic, and historic', thus it's going to disappear, it's time is done. Now you back-pedal/waffle on it. Amazing.
Also, now you're making it about me, instead of what you said being utterly wrong. Classic way to divert. You made the comment about it, it was totally wrong. Live with that fact. I'd put money on the fact that as long as Oracle finds OpenOffice.org useful it's not going anywhere. Especially since it has a far larger user-base to support it than is within this community.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
134 • RE 132 (by KimTjik on 2011-04-15 11:05:01 GMT from Sweden)
Read whatever you wish into what I wrote, I don't care. It's kind of pointless to waste time on explaining what's written plain. In short though, I didn't suggest any of your interpretations, but I gladly live with that.
135 • Unity (by Chip on 2011-04-15 14:03:18 GMT from United States)
... More like dis-unity to me. I'm relieved to see that I not the only individual that has BIG issues with Unity. Like others, I've tried to give it a shot ... it just stinks. I really have trouble being specific of my issues, because it's just so terrible (for me) it's beyond words. Looks like I will be moving to Debian proper in the next few months.
136 • RE:135, No, I don't think so. (by UnityOS on 2011-04-15 15:21:14 GMT from United States)
If you just don't like something that's just fine, but don't say "it just stinks" and leaved it at that. That's an incomplete statement. We don't even know if you've ever tried it or if you even use Linux.Most of what I've found is that people just don't want to change and are afraid of anything new. They download something that uses Unity and play with it for an hour or two and just can't handle learning something different. They say it has to suck because that's not the way we've been doing it. Hell you still have some KDE 3.x users who still refuse to learn KDE 4.x because "it just stinks", or "it's just so terrible ... It's beyond words". Gnome 2.x users say that Gnome 3 sucks, "because it's different and we don't need anything different". And the stupidity just goes on and on. Unity will be just fine. More people like it than don't like it. Of course it is for the younger crowd, not the old timers that can't or won't try to learn anything new.
137 • RE: 136 (by Landor on 2011-04-15 15:46:04 GMT from Canada)
According to what you're saying, that means nobody can prefer one thing over another. A lot of people preferred the radio to a television when it first and I can easily understand, especially today. No, I don't watch television at all anymore.
You're also only doing exactly what the commenter from 135 did, voiced an opinion only. There are not any credible numbers to show that 'more people will like unity than don't like it'.
Who says anyone has to learn anything new either? If they download a LiveCD and it has something they don't like at all, and here's the shocker, it sucks. Why does it suck? They don't like it. It's perception. I usually know, and most people in the world have enough common sense (I hope anyway) to know if they like something or not in a very short time. I don't see any need to force myself, or someone else to use something because maybe they'll like it after weeks or months of not liking it.
Doesn't matter anyway. Unity has absolutely nothing to do with the desktop. It's a work in progress for touch devices. Everything up to this point has been deliberate from Canonical/Shuttleworth, right from Ubuntu's inception and this is not any different.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
138 • RE: 136+137 (by Landor on 2011-04-15 16:57:56 GMT from Canada)
Just to add too, this is one area that I find being open for development of an application, or set of applications isn't a good thing.
Take the KDE 4.XX series for example. It has been said that a lot of people didn't give it a fair trial. They were stuck in the past with the KDE 3.XX series. The problem was with the development more than anything.
A lot of people don't realise that a fair bit of development went on for quite some time before 4.0 was brought out publicly. But it still shouldn't have been brought up publicly. KDE made a huge mistake. They not only shocked a happy, and content user-base, they dumped something fairly broken, and, or, severely lacking in features/functionality. That is going to turn away most people from something.
Not only do you have something that's foreign compared to what you've grown accustomed to, you're now faced with something buggy, having less features, and obviously nowhere near as functional.
You can't blame a user-base for looking at it and going, this horrible! I want KDE 3.XX to continue. If the KDE team kept development of KDE 3.XX going for a fair bit longer, even if just bug fixes, and kept the KDE 4.XX series in house until it reached a more feature rich, functional state, it would have been far better received is my guess.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
139 • RE:137, I'm not trying, why should I? (by UnityOS on 2011-04-15 17:54:35 GMT from United States)
"According to what you're saying, that means nobody can prefer one thing over another."
No I didn't say that. You can prefer any piece of crap that you want to but don't tell someone something is no good just because it sucks or that something is good but you don't know why. Also just to let you know I'm not trying to prove anything. If someone wants to know the facts let them look it up. I have no time to coddle lazy people. That's a little different then an opinion.The problem with some people is that believe every little tidbit coming out of other peoples mouth and treat is as fact instead of checking it out for them selves.
"Unity has absolutely nothing to do with the desktop. It's a work in progress for touch devices."
See. A perfect example of someone saying something that has no bases in fact but a lot of poor suckers will believe this because someone using Linux said it.
"Who says anyone has to learn anything new either?"
Well nobody has to learn anything new, but that is a lot of the complaining that you hear from ones too LAZY to even think about using their mind. They say "it sucks but I don't know why". If you don't want to learn anything new then why should you whine about something that's really none of your business. If you don't use or want it then your opinion is of no use. Why should you bother?
"I don't see any need to force myself, or someone else to use something because maybe they'll like it after weeks or months of not liking it. "
I have no idea what you are rambling about here. I don't see anyone forcing anybody to do anything.
If someone wants to tell me their opinion on something then be ready to back it up with logical accounts and facts and reasoning. Other than that "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." (Mark Twain)
140 • re. 138,139 (by willi-amp on 2011-04-15 19:13:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Landor is right. I used Mandy until they made the appalling mistake of switching to KDE 4 long before it worked. I changed to PClos because it still had 3.xx and have remained with PClos ever since. Now I have KDE4.xx but there are things | still cannot do on it that I had on 3 and I have no need for the Cashew and other 'special' features. Come along Trinity, we need you.
As for 139, Unity has shown its true colours, no thank you.
Number of Comments: 140
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